Christians and the environment

[Diana in OR]

:Deep breath here: I know this can be a big can o' worms, but here goes:

Can someone explain the tendency for Christians (of the conservative, evangelical type) to avoid issues or criticize efforts dealing with protecting the environment (which may or may not include global warming)? I don't want to debate, but I'd like to hear a CC perspective.

I'm asking this b/c I have always considered myself a CC, but seem to be 180 deg. from many of my CC friends on this issue. I believe it is our responsibility to take care of this world God has created. I've never considered myself an environmentalist per se, probably because that word is taboo in some Christian circles, but as I get further into my campaign, I get asked a lot of questions about the environment, and as I research the issues, I don't see the harm in wanting to protect our precious natural resources.

Can someone indulge me, without a flame war??? Maybe my assumptions are totally off, and that would be okay too. :o

[Sue G in PA]

I'm a Christian and I think that we DO need to take care of this planet. It's a stewardship issue, really. Just like God lovingly and graciously lets us "borrow" the material things we have, so does He let us "borrow" this planet that we live on. He created it, created us. I don't think it responsible or being a good steward of our resources to litter, over-use our resources, waste food, build enormous, over-sized homes (don't boo me if you live in a mansion...this is just my opinion :)), etc. There are other "sticky" issues w/ regards to pullution (exhaust from cars, factories, etc.) that I'm torn on. After all, in this day and age we NEED those cars! The factories employ our citizens and help mass-produce those "things" that we need/use every day. As to global warming...I'm not worried. God knows the end of the world anyway!

[JuJuBee]

I believe it is our responsibility to take care of this world God has created.


I totally agree with that, and I am a pretty darn conservative (theologically) Christian! It seems to me that we should strive to find the right use of the resources God has given us. On the one hand, we don't want to elevate the environment to The Environment, i.e., building our lives around The Environment and, in essence, creating an idol out of a created thing; and yet on the other hand, we don't want to neglect our responsibility to be good stewards of the environment, which would mean prudent and judicious use of the resources we have been given and protecting them for future generations, God willing.

[Diane]

I'm a conservative Christian and VERY into the environment. My family does more than our share of protecting and helping our environment. Do you really think CC don't care about the environment? I've never seen that to be true in my neck of the woods.

[Karenciavo]

I have no idea. I am a conservative, evangelical, reformed, 5 point Calvinist who cares very deeply about God's creation. I teach my children to care for God's creation. I don't fall hook, line, and sinker for everything as it is reported in the media though, maybe that's what you're seeing?

[Miss Peregrine]

I see that, too, Diana.

I am very into responsible, intentional living and a Christian(though I am not into organized religion)

I think most Christians that feel that way about "the environment" do so to distance themselves from those who are into saving whales instead of babies, tree-huggers and new agers*

* This is just my theory about why Christians don't seem into the environment, it is not my personal belief:)

[Sandy in Indy]

I count myself as a conservative Christian and I care about the environment. Like the previous posters, I also think we have a responsibility to take care of what God has given us. But I also think that a lot of the global warming stuff is hype...some truth there but not the cataclysmic (sp????) event that the liberal media wants us to believe.

[Virginia Dawn]

Most Christians I know do believe in stewardship of this world and its resources. On the other hand, I don't think that many of them are even aware of current issues, alternatives, and solutions. Its not a matter of lacking sympathy. Lack of time, knowledge, and personal resources, often keep them from being more pro-active.

Really, I could say much the same things about people in any other faith or non-faith :) group. Most people just bop along doing what they know without considering the effects or implications until they have to.

[Cadam]

I think the tendency is because it is seen as a "liberal" issue and because a few extreme environmentalist polices have a negative impact on business and freedom. Like any movement they also have their extreme radicals like the ELF guys who give the whole idea a bad name.

I personally believe we need to protect the world God has given us. However I don't like many of the policies because they are so restrictive and many just don't make any sense (nothing in city planning makes sense!). I also believe that global warming is a natural cycle thing so I am opposed to major restrictions that make my life harder/more expensive due to the fear of something I don't think we can affect. I also don't like how "religious" many people are about the environment. It turns me off to see some who basically worship the environment with a devotion that doesn't allow for reasoned debate or anyone else's opinion.

I know every movement has people like this (all religions, homeschoolers, any group really) but living in this area you know it isn't hard to find a lot of them. We are home to that ELF nut "Trae Arrow" after all! Anyone up for ledge sitting on the court house? :)

[Peek a Boo]

I don't fall hook, line, and sinker for everything as it is reported in the media though, maybe that's what you're seeing?

I'm not a Calvinist ;), but I agree w/ much of what she says.
I think her statement that i bolded is the biggest thing for me.
I do believe we have a responsibility to God's creation, but I also believe we were given this earth to use. Not abuse, but i don't see much evidence that we need to use kid gloves in dealing w/ our earth. God has given us a very resilient planet.

I do get the impression that many environmentalist issues tend to become their own religion in and of itself to the exclusion of other principles --like a lot of other passionate issues. i also hear a lot of stuff boil down to "oh, if you only KNEW-- If you had studied this issue more deeply then you too could be enlightened to the plight of our planet --i used to feel like you do until i studied more-- Some of us care more about the planet than we do about temporal things ---" And then we need to define "credible scientists" --each side dismisses the other's studies as biased. It's difficult to find a common ground for actual discussion


Some things are just going to have differences of opinion no matter how many facts you chart to prove whatever side you're on.

So do i care about environmental issues? Absolutely.
Do i care in the same way that others do? Nope.
Do we each have the same set of values in the same weighted priorities? Nope.

[Mrs. H.]

We care about the widespread use of pesticides and herbicides, because it's causing cancer in our old and young. We grow our own vegetables so we don't have to consume them. We also care about the ozone layer, emissions, and global warming, although dh and I don't believe it's a huge catastrophe waiting to happen, because God can wave His hand and make it all go away in a second. Also, this winter has been the coldest on record for several decades.

As for the oil crises and things of that nature, dh often jokes that the US is trying to use up all the other countries' oil so that we will be the only country with oil reserves...hmmm. Not sure how I feel about that one, but I drive a car that fits our family and gets good gas mileage, and how often I drive it is often related to the price at the pump, not my concern over the enviroment.

That being said, we do teach our children to recycle, clean up after themselves, and to cherish and care for the world God has given us, because there is only one. We don't, however, treasure the creation more than the Creator, which is a feeling you get sometimes with all the hype about the enviroment.

[Peek a Boo]

We don't, however, treasure the creation more than the Creator, which is a feeling you get sometimes with all the hype about the enviroment.


Ok, you said it much better than I did!

[Antonia]

Kwim? Whatever the issue, the fringe (lunatic fringe, as my dh calls them)always seems to get the most attention. Those few Christians who were railing against Earth Day, et al, are the ones the media chose to focus on. The rest of us just aren't that interesting! :rolleyes:

[Daisy]

Great discussion. I consider myself environmentally conscious. I'm aware of what is being "preached" by the media. I've dug in and done research. I'm by no means as educated on the issues as many others are. I'm in the stewardship camp firmly. I do what I can to tread softly. That said, these are MY issues with the environmental movement... Note, I said MY issues. Not everyone's issues, not your issues, not most Christian's issue. MY issue. LOL.

1. As previously stated, some of these groups come across very preachy and with very few real facts to back them up.

2. Sometimes, it is hard not to completely discount what someone is saying when they've gone the extreme of living in a tree. This may not be right but that's the way I feel.

3. Scripture is plain that one of man's weaknesses is to worship the creation rather then the Creator.

4. I believe that we are in the end times, that the earth will continue to deteriorate and that man cannot do one thing to stop it. So my focus is on saving the lost humans and not the dying planet.

5. Humans always come first. Humans with souls (as opposed to animals) who need food, shelter, jobs, etc. Now I realize as much as the next person that we can undermine our efforts to care for humans by being bad stewards of our resources. But they ARE resources and should be wisely used.

[OnTheBrink]

We don't, however, treasure the creation more than the Creator, which is a feeling you get sometimes with all the hype about the environment.

I agree.

[Amy in MS]

I see the same thing. Many Christians where I live pooh-pooh global warming, extinction, don't believe humans can do anything really good or bad for the environment (God's in control, and it's all going to pan out because this earth will be destroyed by God anyway. He won't let it get too bad, eh?). Humans above all! We have dominion!! Then, since most are creationists, they laugh at us evolutionists and say, "gee, if the earth really is warming, the animals should just evolve, and then they'll be ok!"--Yes, I've heard this at least a dozen times in the last year from friends of mine--AND on a local Christian morning talk show RICK AND BUBBA. (First and last time I've listened to it.)

I think a lot of it also hinges on a vaguely negative view of science. Evolution is a biggie. Since a vast majority of scientists, as well as most of the world's scientific community, are evolutionists (granted, not all. Not All!) that makes Christian creationists very skeptical about science as a whole. All of science is looked at with a wary eye. It's easy for creationists to doubt anything in science, as obviously it has such an "ungodly" agenda, as the whole idea of evolution shows. I'd like to see a scientific poll somewhere examining the correlation between believe in creationism with disbelief in climate change and other scientific theories.

I have been an Extrememly Serious 1st gen. Evangelical for half of my life, 6-day young earth creationist, etc. and most of my community still is.

I'm rapidly falling away from just about everything, and am horrified as I look behind me. I can't stomach it anymore.

I really can't. I'm almost throwing in the towel entirely.

[Amy in MS]

Here's something I just thought of.
I LOVE RAinbow Resource, but look at what they have in their Ecology section:
3 books.
Let me provide with what they are and bits of the reviews.


Exploring the World Around You
"It's always refreshing to find a well-written science text from a Christian viewpoint, particularly in a traditionally emotional and evolutionary-ridden topic such as ecology"

(See, evolution!!! Christian viewpoint on ecology is unemotional and clear-eyed!)

Facts, not Fear
"Science textbooks are rife with environmentalist outcries aobut global warming, the need to recycle, acid rain, overpopulation, disappearing water and wildlife, etc. etc. But are these claims valid?"

The review goes on to list the chapters
Will Billions Starve
Natural Resources-On the Way Out?
Are OUr Forests Dying?
The Rain Forest-ONe Hundred Acres a Minute?
American Wildlife--On the Edge?
Where Have All the Species Gone
The Air We Breathe
A Hotter Plante?
Sorting Out Ozone
Acid Rain
Not a Drop to Drink
Don't Eat That Apple?
A Garbage Crisis?
The Recycling Myth

Finally
Eco-Hysteria: A Scientist Examines the "Environmentalist" Movement.
I'm not going to bother with the review here, if anyone is interested, they can find it on Rainbow Resource's site.

Here you got. This is what the excellent (honestly) and Christian homeschool resource providers offer in terms on Ecology. What does this say about what Christians like to see in their ecology?

[Ellie]

I believe that I am a steward of the creation. However, that does not mean that I'm supposed to live on this earth and never consume anything, or cut down a tree, or build a road, or houses for people to live in comfortably.

I believe the resources of the earth were put here not only to speak to God's creation but to be a blessing to me. I have to take care of it if I want to continue to have that blessing, but I am going to *use* what's here.

And since I don't believe in global warming, I'm not going to work overtime to do...whatever it is that Al Gore thinks I should do so I don't mess up the planet more.:rolleyes:

[Tutor]

I have no idea. I am a conservative, evangelical, reformed, 5 point Calvinist who cares very deeply about God's creation. I teach my children to care for God's creation. I don't fall hook, line, and sinker for everything as it is reported in the media though, maybe that's what you're seeing?



I do believe we have a responsibility to God's creation, but I also believe we were given this earth to use. Not abuse, but i don't see much evidence that we need to use kid gloves in dealing w/ our earth. God has given us a very resilient planet.

I do get the impression that many environmentalist issues tend to become their own religion in and of itself to the exclusion of other principles --like a lot of other passionate issues. i also hear a lot of stuff boil down to "oh, if you only KNEW-- If you had studied this issue more deeply then you too could be enlightened to the plight of our planet --i used to feel like you do until i studied more-- Some of us care more about the planet than we do about temporal things ---" And then we need to define "credible scientists" --each side dismisses the other's studies as biased. It's difficult to find a common ground for actual discussion


Some things are just going to have differences of opinion no matter how many facts you chart to prove whatever side you're on.

So do i care about environmental issues? Absolutely.
Do i care in the same way that others do? Nope.
Do we each have the same set of values in the same weighted priorities? Nope.

All I'd like to add is:
1. I agree wholeheartedly with both of these ladies.
2. I currently have a copy of Francis Schaeffer's Trilogy on top of the most recent issue of Mother Earth News (to which I have a subscription)

[Kelli in TN]

We care about the widespread use of pesticides and herbicides, because it's causing cancer in our old and young. We grow our own vegetables so we don't have to consume them. We also care about the ozone layer, emissions, and global warming, although dh and I don't believe it's a huge catastrophe waiting to happen, because God can wave His hand and make it all go away in a second. Also, this winter has been the coldest on record for several decades.

As for the oil crises and things of that nature, dh often jokes that the US is trying to use up all the other countries' oil so that we will be the only country with oil reserves...hmmm. Not sure how I feel about that one, but I drive a car that fits our family and gets good gas mileage, and how often I drive it is often related to the price at the pump, not my concern over the enviroment.

That being said, we do teach our children to recycle, clean up after themselves, and to cherish and care for the world God has given us, because there is only one. We don't, however, treasure the creation more than the Creator, which is a feeling you get sometimes with all the hype about the enviroment.

First of all, can someone sling Mrs. H some rep? I am out of rep for the next 24 hours.:(

We care very much about the environment. We live in an area where the governmental leaders are short-sighted about this (and many, many, many other issues :rolleyes: ). But we do what we can here and we look for more to do all the time.

[Soph the vet]

I think a lot of it also hinges on a vaguely negative view of science. Evolution is a biggie. Since a vast majority of scientists, as well as most of the world's scientific community, are evolutionists (granted, not all. Not All!) that makes Christian creationists very skeptical about science as a whole. All of science is looked at with a wary eye. It's easy for creationists to doubt anything in science, as obviously it has such an "ungodly" agenda, as the whole idea of evolution shows. I'd like to see a scientific poll somewhere examining the correlation between believe in creationism with disbelief in climate change and other scientific theories.

As a Christian and a creationist, I actually believe there is more scientific evidence to refute Darwinian evolution than to support the theory. (But that is a different thread) I am a scientist, a veterinarian, having been involved in different areas of biological research over the years, as well as clinical practice. I do not divorce the Bible from science. God created science, and we try to explain Him away with it. Many great scientists throughout history were creationists (i.e. Newton, Pascal, Curie, Faraday, Boyle, I could keep going on but you get the idea). I do not ignore climate change but I am skeptical as to whether it is man-made or cyclical and more dependent on our sun. I believe all of us are to be good stewards of what we are given. I can guarantee my carbon footprint is tiny compared to Al Gore's.:rolleyes: I felt the need to defend Christian scientists and I would recommend checking out an exhaustive list of them (even paleontologists:eek:) at AnswersinGenesis.org

[bkpan]

Historic Christianity does value it's role as stewards of His Creation. The Creation is a reflection of it's Creator and therefore beautiful. So we, as Christians, should be in the frontline to "protect" our environment. Taking seriously the need to live responsibly.

That said, the environmental movement has to a degree been co-opted by the Left and there has been, in the past, a vocal pro-abortion faction which preaches population control. So, when the care for the environment is seen as indifference to the people who live in it, Christians may be guilty of running too far the other way.

It's a shame really. A consistent pro-life ethic would include the unborn, the aged, the convict, the environment, etc. ALL of His Creation.

Kim in TN (used to be in NV)

[Mx5]

I see the same thing. Many Christians where I live pooh-pooh global warming, extinction, don't believe humans can do anything really good or bad for the environment (God's in control, and it's all going to pan out because this earth will be destroyed by God anyway. He won't let it get too bad, eh?). Humans above all! We have dominion!! Then, since most are creationists, they laugh at us evolutionists and say, "gee, if the earth really is warming, the animals should just evolve, and then they'll be ok!"--Yes, I've heard this at least a dozen times in the last year from friends of mine--AND on a local Christian morning talk show RICK AND BUBBA. (First and last time I've listened to it.)

I think a lot of it also hinges on a vaguely negative view of science. Evolution is a biggie. Since a vast majority of scientists, as well as most of the world's scientific community, are evolutionists (granted, not all. Not All!) that makes Christian creationists very skeptical about science as a whole. All of science is looked at with a wary eye. It's easy for creationists to doubt anything in science, as obviously it has such an "ungodly" agenda, as the whole idea of evolution shows. I'd like to see a scientific poll somewhere examining the correlation between believe in creationism with disbelief in climate change and other scientific theories.

I have been an Extrememly Serious 1st gen. Evangelical for half of my life, 6-day young earth creationist, etc. and most of my community still is.

I'm rapidly falling away from just about everything, and am horrified as I look behind me. I can't stomach it anymore.

I really can't. I'm almost throwing in the towel entirely.

Are you talking about throwing away your beliefs?

[j.griff]

I just PMed you, Amy :D

[PariSarah]

I have been an Extrememly Serious 1st gen. Evangelical for half of my life, 6-day young earth creationist, etc. and most of my community still is.

I'm rapidly falling away from just about everything, and am horrified as I look behind me. I can't stomach it anymore.

I really can't. I'm almost throwing in the towel entirely.

You know what? The only thing you need to throw away is your community's belief that they are the only Christians who are getting it right. The only thing you need to give up is your (their) certainty that they're the real Christians with all the "right" answers.

There's a whole Church out there that you've never been exposed to (or that you've been taught is just not Christian "enough") that has other answers to the questions you're asking. They're not all better answers--I'm sure God laughs every other time I open my mouth--but some of them are.

Don't throw in the towel. Get better acquainted with the rest of the Body. We all need each other's wisdom to make it through this crazy life.

[jmgconner]

I'm a CC and didn't know other people like me existed until I read the book Crunchy Cons. My experience in the past has been very similar to Amy in MS's.

I see the same thing. Many Christians where I live pooh-pooh global warming, extinction, don't believe humans can do anything really good or bad for the environment (God's in control, and it's all going to pan out because this earth will be destroyed by God anyway. He won't let it get too bad, eh?). Humans above all! We have dominion!! Then, since most are creationists, they laugh at us evolutionists and say, "gee, if the earth really is warming, the animals should just evolve, and then they'll be ok!"

Now, with that said, my family and I were led by God to switch denominations. I've found less of the attitude quoted above in our new home church. I'll be interested to read more!

[OH_Homeschooler]

I have a stupid question...:o. What is CC in this context? I looked at the abbreviation list and found a CC but it didn't fit in this discussion. Thanks!

[Tutor]

I have a stupid question...:o. What is CC in this context? I looked at the abbreviation list and found a CC but it didn't fit in this discussion. Thanks!

Christian Content

[CLHCO]

There are a few who, in their dislike of the "tree huggers", will dismiss everything said. The media likes those types and play them up. They're far more shocking than the average person who does care but does not make it the center of faith, which lies in Another.

On the flip side, there are environmentalists who take it on much as a religion themselves. If someone cares but comes to a different conclusion or, it simply has not become the passion of their life, they assume you are an environmental hater who doesn't care if we all roast. The media likes them too. Regular people aren't as interesting.

Even in our own lives, we tend to see the one nut-case and assume Betty or Jim Bob are just like that too because they use plastic bags instead of paper or, on the flip side, they grow organic food.

Extreme positions are sometimes good to listen to. It's those that have a fire in the belly who really get the ball rolling at times on both ends. We have to just be careful not to paint everyone with a broad brush based on who is the loudest. By the same token, we can't always fall for everything the media, movements, or other organizations with a bias, are putting before us.

[Tutor]

I'm a CC and didn't know other people like me existed until I read the book Crunchy Cons.

How did you like that book? I read it a couple of years ago, and I was really disappointed that it didn't seem to focus as much on environmental issues as it purported. (I wrote my thoughts about it here (http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/p31wife/126053/), if you're interested. I've moved my blog since; I've got to figure out how to move these posts over to the new one.)

[Amy in MS]

Hi Soph <g>

Please, I've been on the creationist side of the debate for years. So has my husband, and he's a scientist as well. If I have to look at answersingenesis ever again I'm going to stick my head in the garbage disposal :)

It's not a matter of knowing. I know. God, I know. I don't believe.

Also, sure, "Darwinism" can be refuted, that was 150 years ago. Our understanding has grown and changed, and there is really no such thing as Darwinism anymore, except to creationists, but the underlying observation that Darwin made has never changed.

Don't Darwin's Black Box me, don't Ken Hamm me ("Creation Science is god and Ken Hamm is his messenger." begging the pardon of Muslims for warping their credo). I think it's silly.

And I'm starting to believe that "religion" is the problem, and I count Christianity to be one.

Dude, I'm a former missionary. 5-point Calvanist. Born again! I never, ever thought I'd be here.

[Amy in MS]

I'm thinking I'll do that. I'm just in, er, Limbo right now :)

[Diana in OR]

Thanks for the great discussion, Ladies! In my "Christian" circles, I'm a bit of a rebel in this area. In my "other" circles, I'm one of the few, if not the only CC, so at times I feel a bit like an anomoly.

Amy, I hear what you're saying. It's a long journey, but I'm slowly sorting out what my Christian culture tells me is true with what the Bible actually says. If anything, my faith in the Bible gets stronger, but my trust in the culture (any culture, actually) well, has waned a lot.

[Margaret in CO]

I think that many Christians are believed to be anti-environment because we believe children are a blessing--thus welcoming whoever the Lord sends us. I've been accused of "destroying the earth" because I have more than 1.2 children. I was actually yelled at and derided at our last food co-op meeting because of that. Frankly, it gets old. I agree that it comes down to worshipping the Creator vs. worshipping the creation.

[Amy in MS]

>>God created science, and we try to explain Him away with it. <<

This is what freaks me out about "Christian science". The point of science is not to 'try to explain God away', it's to try to understand the world. When science seems to tell us something about the world that doesn't align with our beliefs about God, all of the sudden science is trying to 'explain God away'.

Science is Science, Christian science is science with Christian presuppositions.

Amy

[LizzyBee]

What is CC in this context?

I think when people are saying that they are or were a CC, they mean Conservative Christian. HTH

[OH_Homeschooler]

I think that many Christians are believed to be anti-environment because we believe children are a blessing--thus welcoming whoever the Lord sends us. I've been accused of "destroying the earth" because I have more than 1.2 children. I was actually yelled at and derided at our last food co-op meeting because of that. Frankly, it gets old. I agree that it comes down to worshipping the Creator vs. worshipping the creation.

Honestly? I've rarely heard this argument. For me, it's that I am always hearing Christian Conservatives bash the entire notion of man-created global warming without truly considering the evidence and without conceding that hey, even if it isn't real, what would it hurt if I cut down on my waste?

[OH_Homeschooler]

I think when people are saying that they are or were a CC, they mean Conservative Christian. HTH

Oh right, that makes sense. (Someone else said Christian Content but that didn't fit either since people are saying "I'm a CC.")

[Peek a Boo]

The point of science is not to 'try to explain God away', it's to try to understand the world. When science seems to tell us something about the world that doesn't align with our beliefs about God, all of the sudden science is trying to 'explain God away'.

Science is Science, Christian science is science with Christian presuppositions.

Amy

actually, my biggest problem w/ most popular scientific issues in the media is not that *I* believe they discount God, but w/the scientists who insist it *does* discount God. And I know that not all scientists assert that, but there are a good many who do to some extent. Or at the least imply it.

No, my only issue about science is that it has a history of being wrong, lol. I appreciate the strides we've made scientifically, but as was noted in another thread --'Facts' can Change. Our understanding of Science changes as we learn more. If indeed our planet is billions of years old, then a hundred years of industry isn't going to phase it, IMNSHO. I think we are in greater danger of wiping out the human race w/ wars than we are in destroying our planet through use.

Good luck sorting out your thoughts tho!~

[Melinda in VT]

No, my only issue about science is that it has a history of being wrong, lol. I appreciate the strides we've made scientifically, but as was noted in another thread --'Facts' can Change. Our understanding of Science changes as we learn more.

Yes, science is wrong sometimes. But the whole point of the scientific method is that you continue to test and explore and learn and adjust your theories as you get more information.

Christianity's track record on science, however, is less than stellar. Remember Galileo? The church was wrong then, and I think it is similarly wrong now.

[Peek a Boo]

Yes, science is wrong sometimes. But the whole point of the scientific method is that you continue to test and explore and learn and adjust your theories as you get more information.

Christianity's track record on science, however, is less than stellar. Remember Galileo? The church was wrong then, and I think it is similarly wrong now.

well, the *church's* track record on science is less than stellar in some areas and wonderful in others.

Science changes. God doesn't. :cool:

That about sums it up for me :D

[jmgconner]

How did you like that book? I read it a couple of years ago, and I was really disappointed that it didn't seem to focus as much on environmental issues as it purported. (I wrote my thoughts about it here (http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/p31wife/126053/), if you're interested. I've moved my blog since; I've got to figure out how to move these posts over to the new one.)

Thanks for the link to your blog. It was interesting to read your take on the book. I LOVED it, but it could be moreso that it was validating my thoughts on the environment and other "liberal" issues at a time in my life where my extended family probably saw me as a "crunchy" person (as a bad thing), although my beliefs were/are quite conservative. It's been almost two years since I've read it, so I should pick it back up - I wonder how I would feel about the book now, especially after reading your review of the inconsistenices between his proposed changes and the philosophy.

[Laura K (NC)]

Can someone explain the tendency for Christians (of the conservative, evangelical type) to avoid issues or criticize efforts dealing with protecting the environment (which may or may not include global warming)?

I'm teaching a Fallacy Detective class in my co-op, and we just covered the fallacy called the "loaded question." I'm sure you didn't intend it, but your question is a very good example of that fallacy.

I don't believe that there is such a tendency. I also believe some on the "left" side of politics would have us believe that this is so of the right.

I'm a conservative evangelical Catholic, and I recycle, reuse, and carry reusable grocery bags. It wasn't very nice of me to accuse you of committing a fallacy (which sounds like such a dirty word), so I'll charge myself with one too. I can say that I would be committing a "parts to whole" fallacy by saying, therefore, that since my family does what it can to protect the environment, this is also true of all conservative evangelical Christians. I think generalizations come naturally to us, but they are very hard to back up.

[Robin Hood]

I already know I am not going to word this well, so if if I make you mad, let me know so I can try to reword it. I have to throw ideas on the table before I can make sense of them...here goes...hopefully short ...

I equate "environmentalism" to far left, liberal, politics. I am not left nor liberal, but I do love politics. So the far right, conservative religionist would be the opposite of the far left, liberal environmentalist. Both of the far sides blow their perspectives way out of proportion and into alarmism.

[Diana in OR]

I equate "environmentalism" to far left, liberal, politics. I am not left nor liberal, but I do love politics. So the far right, conservative religionist would be the opposite of the far left, liberal environmentalist. Both of the far sides blow their perspectives way out of proportion and into alarmism.

Do you not then, think that one could be an "environmentalist" and also a conservative [insert religion]? I agree about the extremes. I'm not arguing, just trying to understand your perspective.

[Karin]

As a Christian and a creationist, I actually believe there is more scientific evidence to refute Darwinian evolution than to support the theory. (But that is a different thread) I am a scientist, a veterinarian, having been involved in different areas of biological research over the years, as well as clinical practice. I do not divorce the Bible from science. God created science, and we try to explain Him away with it. Many great scientists throughout history were creationists (i.e. Newton, Pascal, Curie, Faraday, Boyle, I could keep going on but you get the idea). I do not ignore climate change but I am skeptical as to whether it is man-made or cyclical and more dependent on our sun. I believe all of us are to be good stewards of what we are given. I can guarantee my carbon footprint is tiny compared to Al Gore's.:rolleyes: I felt the need to defend Christian scientists and I would recommend checking out an exhaustive list of them (even paleontologists:eek:) at AnswersinGenesis.org

I'm just posting to say that Soph said almost exactly what I would have said, except I'm more a gap theory/theology person. ALSO, I met a very interesting fellow in line on our recent travels who I don't think is a Christian, but he has a Masters in Meterology. Remember past threads on global warming, I asked him about it. His first answer was, "natural cycle" and then he proceded to name fact after fact to support his argument. I knew most of them, but the one I'd forgotten is the Viking graves 6-8 feet below the permafrost in Greenland. He pointed out that there is no way they could have dug through the permafrost with their primitive digging tools.

[jacqui in mo]

Rick Warren & others have signed a compact stating they believe Global Warming is real and calls for various actions to support that belief. Here is an article about it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/08/national/08warm.html

I remember hearing some of their ads when this compact was first signed. I haven't heard much about it since.

For myself, although a Christian, I have mostly seen this in a political light and disagree with global warming. I base this on conversations with my FIL who is an atmospheric physicist who does not think much of the models used nor is impressed by the data reported. I also think it is over hyped by the media. Lots of conflicting information is out there just from Pro Global Warming advocates.

I really love science & hearing about studies & reports but it doesn't always give a definitive answer to anything. The media reports some things prematurely.....Ground breaking studies that, while interesting, need to be Replicated to really show if the data holds true. And while science has made so many wonderful advances for us, no amount of study seems to show a consensus on whether or not coffee is good for us:rolleyes: , so in that light I don't trust the reports of how global warming is caused nor How we should go about fixing it (Even if we really, for sure could).


Thanks for starting an interesting discussion!
Jacqui

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I was always taught that Jesus would return very soon, maybe today, and certainly before we did anything really irreversably bad and then there would be a new heaven and a new earth, so it hinted very strongly that it was a matter of unbelief (in this particular eschatological (is that a word?) scenario) to promote environmentalism.

Subdue it. All things richly to enjoy. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

[Robin Hood]

Do you not then, think that one could be an "environmentalist" and also a conservative [insert religion]? I agree about the extremes. I'm not arguing, just trying to understand your perspective.

Yes, Diana, I do think the two can work well together, but not by most. I have a very good friend who is a CC but liberal in her views of environmentalism. I find her refreshing and challenging, but she has been shunned by CC and now attends a liberal church. She has been badly beaten and humiliated by CC when she most needed them. She has remained strong in her faith and has been a great example of living out what she believes whatever befalls her. But still, my other CC friends warn me to be careful around her.

By her sticking with her convictions, she makes me think. We've had some great discussions, including a couple on environmentalism.

Now, I have read letters to the editor in our local paper about the environment and how people are destroying the planet and that their elimination is the best solution. So my mind goes there when I hear evironmentalism being pushed, probably in much the same way that liberals think that CC are abortion doctor killers. I have to bring my mind back to the center and think about the better picture.

Interestingly, that one friend and my other CC friends are all environmentally conscientious. (sp)

Please overlook any misspellings, I have been sitting here too long and need to go and don't want to correct them (nor any grammar errors). :p

[PariSarah]

NPR's Science Friday recently hosted a panel discussion (http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/200802151) on the relationship between science and politics that was, in general, very, very interesting. Worth listening to in its own right.

As far as our conversation here, though, there is a section about two-thirds of the way through where an audience member asks a question about religion and the environment. I was pleasantly surprised to hear almost all of the panel members speak very positively of their relationships with religious groups, specifically on the issue of the environment.

So that might provide a little balance to the discussion here.

[BarbaraL in OK]

The masters-in-meteorology guy is part of the 5% or less of that community who are not convinced, which is normal variety of opinion in a big group. My husband (Ph.D. in meteorology) was not convinced until about five years ago, when the understanding of climate and climate change reached a sort of tipping point in convincing the atmospheric science community. As compared to the wide range of opinion in the '80s and '90s, now a consensus has been reached among the other 95% of that community that anthropogenic (human-caused) climate change is real, well underway, and happening much faster than any previous, nonanthropogenic climate change.

Also, the reason the Vikings colonized Greenland and named it GREENland was that they were in the midst of a couple-hundred-year warming period in which Greenland's coastline was not frozen. They discovered that it was an anomaly when colder conditions returned, and their colony failed. Apparently that masters-in-meteorology didn't remember what others of us learned in our undergrad and graduate climate courses -- about the warming period that enticed the Vikings to Greenland, the medieval Little Ice Age, and other climate change in the last 100,000 years that were not caused by massive dumping of carbon into the atmosphere (our current problem).

I appreciate the Realclimate.org Start Here page (http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/05/start-here/) for learning about climate change and the current understanding of various aspects.

My 2 cents. (Bachelor's in atmospheric science, graduate work in meteorology; convinced of unusual human-caused climate change and scarcity of oil, water, food, all coming down the pike kinda fast; making household and life choices to be more resilient for whatever the future holds.)

[GothicGyrl]

I will just say, because I think she needs the support, that I am totally behind every single word Amy in MS has said. Every. Single. Word.

She said it so much more succinctly than I have ever been able to say it (except I am not a reformed 5pt Calvinist or Former Evangelical).

Whether you believe in Global Warming as it is hyped or not, we ALL have a responsibility to this planet--I have to live here, you do, our kids do, their kids do, etc... I do not want my great-great-great grandkids experiencing a Thundar the Barbarian or I am Legend (minus the zombies)Scenerio--I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

We (the general we, not necessarily those here) have been very abusive with what we have and it saddens me.

[Karin]

Whether you believe in Global Warming as it is hyped or not, we ALL have a responsibility to this planet--I have to live here, you do, our kids do, their kids do, etc... I do not want my great-great-great grandkids experiencing a Thundar the Barbarian or I am Legend (minus the zombies)Scenerio--I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

We (the general we, not necessarily those here) have been very abusive with what we have and it saddens me.

Oh, yes, I'm totally with you on the problem of polution. I feel that all of us are responsible to steward our home, and that includes our planet, whether or not I think it will save our planet or not--and I think we've suffered great loss from people being too quick to jump the gun on chemical innovations. I drive as little as possible, use green cleaners made with NO petroleum products or by products, try to buy made here because the 90K ocean liners are among the largest polluters on this planet, and I could go on, and on, and on. While I may not be convinced of the cause of global warming, I actually have to control my extreme irritation when I meet people (IRL) who get all hepped on the environment who bleach towels all the time, use chemical and/or petroleum based cleaners, buy way more stuff than they need only to toss it, etc, etc.

However, I think there has always been pollution of some kind, be it manmade (think of the poor sanitation habits people had of throwing their waste out the windows, life in houses before chimneys, contaminated water from lack of knowledge of microbes) or "nature" made (volcanic erruptions, etc.) Is it worse now? I would say absolutely. Not just from fossil fuel emissions, but that's a big part of it. How about the fact that there are over 6 billion people (I'm not up on that latest stat) living on the planet? But I'm equally convinced that the media are biased and still am not convinced that the scientific community is totally objective. Besides, it doesn't bother me to be in the dissenting 5 percent if I'm not convinced yet. I'm a born questioner, and the more I see certain things being promulgated the more I dig my heels in and question. It doesn't mean I never get convinced the other way, it just won't come without a lot of clear, irrefutable data. If that last line appears contradictory, since I went back to Christianity, so be it;).

Please, before hitting reply, take a few minutes to really read what I said. In summary:
I'm not trying to convince anyone to take either side, I'm just not totally convinced of the cause of global warming.

I'm for taking care of our environment and get upset by people who are worried about pollution caused global warming who still use polluting products like there's no tomorrow--I don't do that and I still lean toward the natural cycle theory of global warming.

I'm not convinced about something just because the majority believes it--science is no less biased than those studying it, IMO (and you're free not to agree, but respectfully, please.)

Finally, MY MAIN POINT was that this man is not a Christian, but I doubt I made that clear enough in that other post. ie, it's not just some Christians who question the cause of global warming.

Here ends my soapbox and I'm stepping down (for now.):D

[GothicGyrl]

Karin--without messing up the quotes I'll just say that I am in agreeance with on nearly everything you said!! ;) I don't believe that it's as bad as the media hypes, but I do believe it is bad, kwim?

I don't know that we will ever find the actual cause of global warming because I think it is a total combination of all that you mentioned and then some. How much of it is actually humans fault remains to be seen, but we ARE at fault..

That's all I was trying to say. Christian or not, one should be willing to do absolutely what they can to make this planet a better place for future generations... that's the gist of it.

[Karin]

You know what? The only thing you need to throw away is your community's belief that they are the only Christians who are getting it right. The only thing you need to give up is your (their) certainty that they're the real Christians with all the "right" answers.

There's a whole Church out there that you've never been exposed to (or that you've been taught is just not Christian "enough") that has other answers to the questions you're asking. They're not all better answers--I'm sure God laughs every other time I open my mouth--but some of them are.

Don't throw in the towel. Get better acquainted with the rest of the Body. We all need each other's wisdom to make it through this crazy life.

YES!!!!!

[Mrs Mungo]

The masters-in-meteorology guy is part of the 5% or less of that community who are not convinced, which is normal variety of opinion in a big group. My husband (Ph.D. in meteorology) was not convinced until about five years ago, when the understanding of climate and climate change reached a sort of tipping point in convincing the atmospheric science community. As compared to the wide range of opinion in the '80s and '90s, now a consensus has been reached among the other 95% of that community that anthropogenic (human-caused) climate change is real, well underway, and happening much faster than any previous, nonanthropogenic climate change.

Also, the reason the Vikings colonized Greenland and named it GREENland was that they were in the midst of a couple-hundred-year warming period in which Greenland's coastline was not frozen. They discovered that it was an anomaly when colder conditions returned, and their colony failed. Apparently that masters-in-meteorology didn't remember what others of us learned in our undergrad and graduate climate courses -- about the warming period that enticed the Vikings to Greenland, the medieval Little Ice Age, and other climate change in the last 100,000 years that were not caused by massive dumping of carbon into the atmosphere (our current problem).

I appreciate the Realclimate.org Start Here page (http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/05/start-here/) for learning about climate change and the current understanding of various aspects.

My 2 cents. (Bachelor's in atmospheric science, graduate work in meteorology; convinced of unusual human-caused climate change and scarcity of oil, water, food, all coming down the pike kinda fast; making household and life choices to be more resilient for whatever the future holds.)

I think these are excellent points and I agree.

The question of whether we should reduce our reliance on oil should long be passed and we should be dedicating *far* more resources to this than we are. Water is something so many people take for granted but even back when I was in college my geology professors were insisting water would be a political issue for our children's children but I think it's going to happen faster than that.

[Liberty]

>>
Christian science is science with Christian presuppositions.

Amy

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe everyone approaches science with a presupposition? What's the difference between an atheist scientist vs a believing scientist? Do you truly believe the atheist would be objective if he/she came across evidence supporting a creationist worldview? I for one do not believe so. We are all human. As such, we tend to see everything based on our own internal template of the world (whether it's science, history, current events, global warming, etc....).

[Caroline]

Water is something so many people take for granted but even back when I was in college my geology professors were insisting water would be a political issue for our children's children but I think it's going to happen faster than that.

Water is a political issue here in Georgia. We tried to take part of Tennessee recently. Apparently there is a dispute about where the line is drawn. The farmers downstream are fighting with the resorts and fishing people upstream about how much water should be let out of the lakes.

[Peek a Boo]

now a consensus has been reached among the other 95% of that community that anthropogenic (human-caused) climate change is ....happening much faster than any previous, nonanthropogenic climate change.

with all due respect, we simply do not have detailed facts that prove how fast the many many many MANY temp swings over the last billion [? pick your favorite number here, lol] years have happened.

[DKinTX]

I'm too tired to post a thoughtful reply, but I'm a CC, and I care about environmental issues, and try to live in an environmentally conscious way. But I am familiar with what you describe...I've heard many CCs mock "tree huggers". Sorry...lame reply but I really am tired today!

[LizzyBee]

Water is something so many people take for granted but even back when I was in college my geology professors were insisting water would be a political issue for our children's children but I think it's going to happen faster than that.

Interesting that you should mention this. The NC legislature is trying to pass a bill that would tax water used by people who have wells. It probably won't pass this time, but eventually it will. Unless they're going to pay to maintain my well, I don't know why they think it's okay to tax it.

[Peek a Boo]

Unless they're going to pay to maintain my well, I don't know why they think it's okay to tax it.

For the same reason they tax your other property/income and not feel obligated to maintain THOSE :) I'm sure the well water tax will go into some fund that will be labeled as "for the children" :cool:

[Kathy in MD]

Here's something I just thought of.
I LOVE RAinbow Resource, but look at what they have in their Ecology section:
3 books.
Let me provide with what they are and bits of the reviews.


Exploring the World Around You
"It's always refreshing to find a well-written science text from a Christian viewpoint, particularly in a traditionally emotional and evolutionary-ridden topic such as ecology"

(See, evolution!!! Christian viewpoint on ecology is unemotional and clear-eyed!)

Facts, not Fear
"Science textbooks are rife with environmentalist outcries aobut global warming, the need to recycle, acid rain, overpopulation, disappearing water and wildlife, etc. etc. But are these claims valid?"

The review goes on to list the chapters
Will Billions Starve
Natural Resources-On the Way Out?
Are OUr Forests Dying?
The Rain Forest-ONe Hundred Acres a Minute?
American Wildlife--On the Edge?
Where Have All the Species Gone
The Air We Breathe
A Hotter Plante?
Sorting Out Ozone
Acid Rain
Not a Drop to Drink
Don't Eat That Apple?
A Garbage Crisis?
The Recycling Myth

Finally
Eco-Hysteria: A Scientist Examines the "Environmentalist" Movement.
I'm not going to bother with the review here, if anyone is interested, they can find it on Rainbow Resource's site.

Here you got. This is what the excellent (honestly) and Christian homeschool resource providers offer in terms on Ecology. What does this say about what Christians like to see in their ecology?

These authors will also often poo poo the original environmental predictions as well as new predictions. But they ignore that the older predictions often said that unless something is done, XYZ will happen. And people often took these warnings to heart and acted. And the predictions didn't always happen.

There were many books, publications and individuals that affected people and influenced their actions and laws. Silent Spring is the best known, but there were many others.

[Amy in MS]

Hi Liberty,
I have thought, yes, thanks. And I've thought about what you're talking about too, and I agree. But the Christian bias is freely admitted with either "Christian" or "Creation science." "Christian" science didn't appear until Evolution appeared on the scene. It was drummed up as a response to a new idea, with a specific goal. Science is science. What Soph was saying was that science was trying to disprove God. (Big Scary Science!!!) I'm saying that's bunk. Science is trying to understand the world, not disprove God.

Amy

Edited to say:
I'm sorry if that sounded catty, Liberty. I'm just having a terrible faith crisis right now. I hear you saying the same things I said as an Evangelical missionary for years. Now I see differently--better, in fact. You see, most scientists aren't interested in pursuing the God/no-God debate so whatever their diest-non-diest bias is, it doesn't come into play. Most are more interested in how the world works. That's what science is. My husband just finished his Ph.D. in ecology and it had nothing to do with God. I can think of 8 Ph.D. in our Evangelical Church and their work had nothing to do with the presupposition of God or religion.

See, so many CCs are taught that science has an agenda, but doesn't. We shouldn't use science to prove God any more than we should use science to disprove Him. That's not the point of science.

I'm going to be leaving the boards for a few days. As I've said, I'm having a real faith crisis. I've been following many of the threads for the last several days and realize I've said just about every CC argument on just about every point on every religion-oriented post (from human-secularism to FullQuiver, to the Medicaid for Large families thread). Seeing your comment here about science bias is just what I believed and was basically convinced to believe for years from other missionaries and teachers. I feel terribly brainwashed now, and I need to get away and reassess what I believe. Because I don't believe what I'm reading, though these were the things I said myself, not so very long ago.

Plus, Yes, I think if an atheist found proof that supported creation (in particular something that proved it for him or her) that atheist would definitely publish it. Can you imagine the money that would pour in? Or maybe you don't know enough about how hard it is to fund research. Anyone would be a fool to sit on something like that. Heck yeah. But I know you likely believe that scientists want to squash God, so maybe you can't believe that.

Amy

[Karin]

Hi Liberty,
I have thought, yes, thanks. And I've thought about what you're talking about too, and I agree. But the Christian bias is freely admitted with either "Christian" or "Creation science." "Christian" science didn't appear until Evolution appeared on the scene. It was drummed up as a response to a new idea, with a specific goal. Science is science. What Soph was saying was that science was trying to disprove God. (Big Scary Science!!!) I'm saying that's bunk. Science is trying to understand the world, not disprove God.

Amy

The term might be new, but science and Christianity have been interrelated many times. Studying the history of science in Europe over the past couple of thousand of years is rather interesting. Politics, religion and science are often interlinked in terms of underlying thought, etc., perhaps moreso in the past than now, perhaps not.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

The term might be new, but science and Christianity have been interrelated many times. Studying the history of science in Europe over the past couple of thousand of years is rather interesting. Politics, religion and science are often interlinked in terms of underlying thought, etc., perhaps moreso in the past than now, perhaps not.

Actually, I think that was Amy's point.

[Amy in MS]

Actually, I think that was Amy's point.

Hi Pam,
Yes, thank you. I'm sorry, I got a little worked up in that last post and I want to go tone it down--I don't know, can I edit? If not, I want to take a breath.

I realize the great history of Christian thoughout the ages and its working with history and science and philosophy. What I'm more talking about here is an entire new "science" based on refuting "Darwinism". Sure, there were always philosophical/religious distinctives between secular and Christian- (and any other religious-) thought, but now it's A Distinct Science. And one that is refuted by most scientists in the entire world. (Of course, this is only because these non-Bible-supporting scientists have been blinded by the god of this world, and they're all bad athiests. Therefore, we can simply ignore them, and go to our own special museum)

From my time as a fundamentalist missionary, we were taught that science had a bias and that was to elevate nature. We were convinced of exactly what Liberty said, "science has a bias", and it's anti-God, and therefore, we had our own science to support what's in the Bible. Christian science.

Now, I know that most scientists don't care about proving/disproving God at all. I know plenty of Evangelical Christians who love God, and are actually evolutionists. The only scientists interesting in proving/disproving God are pretty darn limited in number and aren't in sciences like biology, ecology, archaeology. Like Soph, I don't doubt that she's a Christian and a vet, but how much time did she spend in her classes trying to prove/disprove God. How much time did her professors spend in those pursuits? I read a wonderful piece in the Smithsonian recently from a Christian palentologist who believes in God-designed evolution. But she doen't spend time trying to prove/disprove God or evolution, she just wants to study archaeology.

Anyway, I'm rambling.

I'm not going to change anyone's mind. I know that now. But now I can see, and it's incredible!

[Karin]

Hi Pam,
Yes, thank you. I'm sorry, I got a little worked up in that last post and I want to go tone it down--I don't know, can I edit? If not, I want to take a breath.

I realize the great history of Christian thoughout the ages and its working with history and science and philosophy. What I'm more talking about here is an entire new "science" based on refuting "Darwinism". I'm not going to change anyone's mind. I know that now. But now I can see, and it's incredible!

Okay, now I get what you were saying. I haven't followed this new science closely. There have been so many threads, but I think in the thread on the poll about how life began I wrote about how I was an agnostic and a die-hard evolutionist when I started at a secular university--until I studied evolution in detail, and that was back in the early 1980s. What I didn't mention was that it was in a class taught by a paleantologist who was an evolutionist. I don't even think I had any Christian friends at that time. So, I basically discarded it on my own after a lot of study, thinking, etc. Not that I expect everyone else to do change their opinions on it.

There's an old cliche, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." I really see these threads as a discussion rather than a place to change people's opinions. I have learned a lot by reading what others post, and it forces me to rethink what I believe. I'm not one to simply stay where I am just to stay there, but I often go back and re-examine what I believe, why I believe, etc, with any new questions (or even old ones) that come up.

[Liberty]

Hi Liberty,
I have thought, yes, thanks. And I've thought about what you're talking about too, and I agree. But the Christian bias is freely admitted with either "Christian" or "Creation science." "Christian" science didn't appear until Evolution appeared on the scene. It was drummed up as a response to a new idea, with a specific goal. Science is science. What Soph was saying was that science was trying to disprove God. (Big Scary Science!!!) I'm saying that's bunk. Science is trying to understand the world, not disprove God.

Amy

Edited to say:
I'm sorry if that sounded catty, Liberty. I'm just having a terrible faith crisis right now. I hear you saying the same things I said as an Evangelical missionary for years. Now I see differently--better, in fact. You see, most scientists aren't interested in pursuing the God/no-God debate so whatever their diest-non-diest bias is, it doesn't come into play. Most are more interested in how the world works. That's what science is. My husband just finished his Ph.D. in ecology and it had nothing to do with God. I can think of 8 Ph.D. in our Evangelical Church and their work had nothing to do with the presupposition of God or religion.

See, so many CCs are taught that science has an agenda, but doesn't. We shouldn't use science to prove God any more than we should use science to disprove Him. That's not the point of science.

I'm going to be leaving the boards for a few days. As I've said, I'm having a real faith crisis. I've been following many of the threads for the last several days and realize I've said just about every CC argument on just about every point on every religion-oriented post (from human-secularism to FullQuiver, to the Medicaid for Large families thread). Seeing your comment here about science bias is just what I believed and was basically convinced to believe for years from other missionaries and teachers. I feel terribly brainwashed now, and I need to get away and reassess what I believe. Because I don't believe what I'm reading, though these were the things I said myself, not so very long ago.

Plus, Yes, I think if an atheist found proof that supported creation (in particular something that proved it for him or her) that atheist would definitely publish it. Can you imagine the money that would pour in? Or maybe you don't know enough about how hard it is to fund research. Anyone would be a fool to sit on something like that. Heck yeah. But I know you likely believe that scientists want to squash God, so maybe you can't believe that.

Amy

Amy-
No apology necessary. I certainly didn't think you sounded catty.

I find this discussion very interesting, but, like you, don't suspect many change their minds based on message board comments. That said, I do believe that humans are humans, and, as such, they are biased. Also, doesn't all science begin with what is called a hypothesis? And, isn't a hypothesis basically an educated guess? Subsequent experiments/observations are used to either prove/disprove the guess. Some scientists have made their hypothesis: "God designed the universe." They then conduct experiments/make observations that, in their minds and in the minds of many other millions of people, prove their hypothesis.

As far as other scientists believing what they have to say, what kind of credibility would they have in the science community if they actually ADMITTED that the findings were legit? Ben Stein is coming out with a movie all about this called "Expelled". I can't wait to see it. Here's a link for any who are interested: http://www.expelledthemovie.com/home.php

As far as science having an agenda. I would agree that most CC believe this, however, I think agendas are inherent to any grant-funded communities. I worked 10 years writing grants for grant-funded non-profit organizations. Most of my job was learning everything I could about the funders (who they were, what they stood for, why they were handing out money). The truth is they all (every last one) had an agenda. The money passed down from these multi-million dollar foundations is spent to accomplish one thing: to further the already-established worldview of the person giving away the money. I learned quickly that the activities of the organizations seeking the money could not stray one iota or they were immediately disqualified from seeking/retaining the money. What does this mean to science if almost all the money it receives comes with strings attached?

I think this fact coupled with the stigma academia has placed on ID science (universities have to please their funders also), makes true fact-finding in certain areas of science very limited.

[Soph the vet]

Now, I know that most scientists don't care about proving/disproving God at all. I know plenty of Evangelical Christians who love God, and are actually evolutionists. The only scientists interesting in proving/disproving God are pretty darn limited in number and aren't in sciences like biology, ecology, archaeology. Like Soph, I don't doubt that she's a Christian and a vet, but how much time did she spend in her classes trying to prove/disprove God. How much time did her professors spend in those pursuits? I read a wonderful piece in the Smithsonian recently from a Christian palentologist who believes in God-designed evolution. But she doen't spend time trying to prove/disprove God or evolution, she just wants to study archaeology.
Ok, I am going to try to clarify my position here. I wanted to stay out of it but I keep seeing my name come up so here goes. My entire scientific education was from an evolutionary bias, all the way from kindergarten through four years of a pathobiology degree in undergrad through four years of veterinary school. I was well-indoctrinated into evolutionary biology upon entering vet school and did not believe in God. I became a born again Christian in vet school. I did not really give the whole creation vs. evolution thing much thought until recently. In my personal study of the available scientific evidence, I reiiterate that IMO there is more evidence for a designer than evolution. Again, I am not out to prove or disprove anything. In my original post I was merely defending scientists who are Christians that believe in creation that we do not "check our brains at the door" in any way. IMO it takes more faith to believe in evolution. I don't believe that creation science is a new science. It is certainly a response to evolutionary theory. Given that only evolution is taught in the schools, usually as fact, is it not unreasonable to expect a response from those who disagree? I will say again that I do not look at science as " big, scary science". I would like to know what the hardcore scientific evidence is for evolution...where are the transitional fossils? We should have millions in the fossil record and there are zero. How do you reconcile evolution with the second law of thermodynamics? Entropy or chaos increase with time yet evolution says things go from disorder to order over time. I would like to know what one piece of real science convinced you that evolution is true and not theory. Otherwise, evolution could be considered "bunk" as well. There is plenty of evidence for adaptation or microevolution as some call it, I am not referring to this. Lastly, let me say one more time in case it was misunderstood again. I love science, I have built a career based on its premises. That said, I have and will continue to pray for you, Amy that you will emerge from this crisis of faith victorious.

[Peek a Boo]

I drive as little as possible, use green cleaners made with NO petroleum products or by products, try to buy made here because the 90K ocean liners are among the largest polluters on this planet, and I could go on, and on, and on. While I may not be convinced of the cause of global warming, I actually have to control my extreme irritation when I meet people (IRL) who get all hepped on the environment who bleach towels all the time, use chemical and/or petroleum based cleaners, buy way more stuff than they need only to toss it, etc, etc.

well, since you mention bleach, I'll point out that I'm one of those who sees a wonderful benefit in using bleach [and other cleaners--according to proper dilution/use standards] throughout my house to kill germs or get the result I want. It breaks down pretty darn quickly. So I'll take issue w/ your irritation on one or two issues :D Of course, maybe I'm not "hepped up" on the environment, so i wouldn't count? ;)

[Karin]

well, since you mention bleach, I'll point out that I'm one of those who sees a wonderful benefit in using bleach [and other cleaners--according to proper dilution/use standards] throughout my house to kill germs or get the result I want. It breaks down pretty darn quickly. So I'll take issue w/ your irritation on one or two issues :D Of course, maybe I'm not "hepped up" on the environment, so i wouldn't count? ;)

You do count, but, no, I wouldn't be irritated because you're not saying one thing while doing the opposite. It's the saying one thing and doing another that irritates me so much, particularly when I strongly lean to the naturally caused global warming theory. And I didn't say I'm 100 percent environmentally friendly, either, but I try to watch it first where I think it most important. But I don't do it to counteract global warming, merely to do the best I can with what I know and our family's needs without being totally extreme.

We're not a family who is likely to go back to living totally off the earth. Also, my dh is a painter, for crying out loud, and uses way more bleach than I like when he powerwashes. He thinks I'm silly to want him to power wash the house with no bleach this year because it has no mould, and I think it's silly to wait until it has mould and then have to use bleach--but since I'm not going to be doing the powerwashing, we do it his way. Mostly, bleach gives some of us us headaches, although I used to use it all the time to clean out mould. I still use it on occasion in my front loader and think it has a place in moderation.

I'm not anti chemicals (good thing, since technically everything is made up of them, even purely organic things:D), just think people overuse without thinking about it and then get all hepped up over global warming blaming it on fossil fuel emissions...I'm sure you get my drift. Honestly, we first started using green cleaners due to chemical sensitivities, then I did some reading and moved on.

I answered this, even though I'm quite certain that you knew what I meant:) because I could have been more clear. A few tangents in there, but I do a lot of tangents IRL, too.

[Dot]

but Bill Moyers had an interesting episode on his show last year called, Is God Green, concerning American evangelicals. I think he's a very intelligent, spiritual, caring man who asks extremely important questions on all of his shows. http://www.pbs.org/moyers/moyersonamerica/green/watch.html

[Peek a Boo]

I answered this, even though I'm quite certain that you knew what I meant:)

yeah, i basically knew what you meant, but saw something more to pursue :D

some of us simply see some things as more harmful to the environment than other things. man made climate change doesn't concern me too much, but pollution does. Using chemicals responsibly doesn't concern me too much, but industrial pollution *does*. We each have our pet peeves, and enough facts/figures/charts/studies/anecdotal evidence to back up those peeves :-)

i think --going back to the OP-- that many of us look at those who do not share the same soapbox as "not enlightened enough" at times. And I would be very careful believing in a generalization like that.


But I don't do it to counteract global warming, merely to do the best I can with what I know and our family's needs without being totally extreme.

....
I'm not anti chemicals (good thing, since technically everything is made up of them, even purely organic things:D), just think people overuse without thinking about it and then get all hepped up over global warming blaming it on fossil fuel emissions...I'm sure you get my drift. Honestly, we first started using green cleaners due to chemical sensitivities, then I did some reading and moved on.

I answered this, even though I'm quite certain that you knew what I meant:) because I could have been more clear. A few tangents in there, but I do a lot of tangents IRL, too.

[sdWTMer]

We don't, however, treasure the creation more than the Creator, which is a feeling you get sometimes with all the hype about the enviroment.

Ok, you said it much better than I did!

I love the quote from Mrs. H. I agree with Peek too. Mrs. H said what I think very well. Kudos to Mrs. H.

I am conservative Christian as well. I do care about the environment as well. Although, I do think that God has made an awesome world and that it can tolerate more than we give it credit for sometimes. I recycle as well. Actually, of late I've done so much better in regards to recycling.

I guess that I just don't like the "in your face" and you must choose such and such attitude.

[OH_Homeschooler]

I was always taught that Jesus would return very soon, maybe today, and certainly before we did anything really irreversably bad and then there would be a new heaven and a new earth, so it hinted very strongly that it was a matter of unbelief (in this particular eschatological (is that a word?) scenario) to promote environmentalism.



I'm sorry, I read this yesterday and tried to let it go, but... (and I am not trying to pick on you, I don't even know if you believe this or are just putting a possibility out there)...

According to this logic, it would also be un-Christian to do ANYTHING to plan for the future. No 30 year mortgages, therefore no home ownership. No planning for retirement. Why not just take out tons of credit cards and charge them up the wahoo? I mean, buy now, pay later, right? Especially if you believe there will be no later.

To me, that's what this argument is saying. Go ahead and trash the earth, Jesus will come before we have to pay.

Sorry, that's just what this argument is saying to me. Are there "good" Christians who really and truly live for today in their personal lives? If that's the mentality you take about the earth, then it stands to reason that's the mentality that applies in your personal life.

[Peek a Boo]

According to this logic, it would also be un-Christian to do ANYTHING to plan for the future. ...that's just what this argument is saying to me. Are there "good" Christians who really and truly live for today in their personal lives? If that's the mentality you take about the earth, then it stands to reason that's the mentality that applies in your personal life.

And you're right! Kinda like the "bad homeschoolers" out there. It's not a problem w/ Christianity or homeschooling, it's a problem with those *people* who skew the practice of what it is they claim to be.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I'm sorry, I read this yesterday and tried to let it go, but... (and I am not trying to pick on you, I don't even know if you believe this or are just putting a possibility out there)...

According to this logic, it would also be un-Christian to do ANYTHING to plan for the future. No 30 year mortgages, therefore no home ownership. No planning for retirement. Why not just take out tons of credit cards and charge them up the wahoo? I mean, buy now, pay later, right? Especially if you believe there will be no later.

To me, that's what this argument is saying. Go ahead and trash the earth, Jesus will come before we have to pay.

Sorry, that's just what this argument is saying to me. Are there "good" Christians who really and truly live for today in their personal lives? If that's the mentality you take about the earth, then it stands to reason that's the mentality that applies in your personal life.

Nope, I don't believe it even a tiny little bit. But it is what I was taught. Sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly. Horrible, I agree. And I agree with your take on it. I was actually very surprised that no one else mentioned having been taught this way, because I've been in a boatload of churches with a boatload of people who believe this.

Generally speaking, the same people were quite adamant about not running up debt or leaving a financial mess for their children.

[Diana in OR]

"Nope, I don't believe it even a tiny little bit. But it is what I was taught. Sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly. Horrible, I agree. And I agree with your take on it. I was actually very surprised that no one else mentioned having been taught this way, because I've been in a boatload of churches with a boatload of people who believe this.

Generally speaking, the same people were quite adamant about not running up debt or leaving a financial mess for their children."

I did hear this a lot, not from a pulpit, per se, but from CCs who were vocally against doing anything to help protect the environment. See, there are so many conflicting ideas like this within the CC culture. That's why it's always "back to the Bible" for me. That's it. Period. If it's not in the Bible, I am under no obligation to subscribe to it.