Questions about WTM rec's for high school...

[Robin in DFW]

We have loosely followed WTM for the past few years. I received my new WMT book and purchased several of SWB's conference cd's and I must say I am disappointed in myself for not following WTM a bit more closely over the years. Her lectures really make the method seem like something even I could do with my high school student.

Anyway, my questions are:

1) Dd16 will be an 11th grader in the fall...I would like for her to work on some of the rhetoric suggestions, but don't really know how one would go about placing a student that hasn't been doing the rhetoric progression from the beginning. Her writing abilities are wonderful (according to her outsourced English evaluator---college level) but I want her to have that ability to write on a deeper level about deeper topics...does that even make sense?

2) Should she do logic first? or can these be done simultaneously? WTM suggests having some logic before tackling rhetoric skills. She is currently doing a geometry program that is horribly proof heavy, which is a logic oriented exercise...so she's not unaccustomed to working logic type problems.

3) Finally, we have followed a more traditional history approach for high school...World Geography, World History, American History, Gov/Econ...she will be doing American History next year using American: A Narrative History as suggested in WTM and because I already have these books. Should we just follow the WTM history rec's for 11th and 12th grade doing early modern then modern and spread American out and incorporate Gov/Econ...?

Okay, I hope this makes some kind of sense. These thoughts have been swimming in my head since yesterday and I need some serious guidance.

As a side note...dd took several classes through Keystone last year in order to allow me to care for my terminally ill grandmother. My grandmother has since passed away, so I am now wanting to be more involved in her learning...she has worked completely independent of me all year and I feel very disconnected. I also have a ds11 that will be in 7th grade next year...so 2 at home.

Thanks for any suggestions!

Robin

[Colleen in NS]

We have loosely followed WTM for the past few years. I received my new WMT book and purchased several of SWB's conference cd's and I must say I am disappointed in myself for not following WTM a bit more closely over the years. Her lectures really make the method seem like something even I could do with my high school student.

Anyway, my questions are:

1) Dd16 will be an 11th grader in the fall...I would like for her to work on some of the rhetoric suggestions, but don't really know how one would go about placing a student that hasn't been doing the rhetoric progression from the beginning. Her writing abilities are wonderful (according to her outsourced English evaluator---college level) but I want her to have that ability to write on a deeper level about deeper topics...does that even make sense?

2) Should she do logic first? or can these be done simultaneously? WTM suggests having some logic before tackling rhetoric skills. She is currently doing a geometry program that is horribly proof heavy, which is a logic oriented exercise...so she's not unaccustomed to working logic type problems.

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95061&page=3

read posts #25, 26, and 37 in this thread. They may help answer some of your questions.

[Robin in DFW]

This helped! But, what I'm wondering is since my dd will be starting cold turkey in 11th, is it a big deal to forgo Logic??? Should she do a semester of Logic in the fall then move into one of the suggested books in Spring and just get as far as she can by graduation? I guess this would still be far superior to her ps'd counterparts, eh?

I don't want to jump into Rhetoric studies without her having some sort of introduction of sorts...does that make sense?

I am feeling a bit overwhelmed because this is all very different from how we've been doing things...we've used some WTM recs, but have mostly used programs that are scheduled and more traditional. I'm making notes and reading, reading, reading the revised WTM and listening to my cd's for inspiration and guidance.

Thanks again...those posts were most helpful.
Robin

[Maverick]

Thanks for the link, Colleen--I missed that thread the first time around and I needed to read that!

[Colleen in NS]

But, what I'm wondering is since my dd will be starting cold turkey in 11th, is it a big deal to forgo Logic??? Should she do a semester of Logic in the fall then move into one of the suggested books in Spring and just get as far as she can by graduation? I guess this would still be far superior to her ps'd counterparts, eh?

I don't want to jump into Rhetoric studies without her having some sort of introduction of sorts...does that make sense?

That's why I mentioned post #37 - see what Susan wrote in the 2nd paragraph, in response to Rhondabee's worry about logic. Apparently the first book in the rhetoric sequence (Rulebook of Arguments) is a review of logic, and could be "good enough" even if you don't do the other logic courses before starting the rhetoric studies. We aren't nearly there yet, and I found this comforting to read, since I've never studied logic before and since I respect her opinion.

I feel hesitant about posting this since I have no experience in it yet - but I just happened to remember SWB posting about this recently. And, at the PHP conference this past weekend, she did mention that *any* progress your student can make in her suggested rhetoric sequence is far better than nothing, and is better than what most of her college freshmen at William and Mary can do. It was very helpful to me to hear her professor-experience perspective.

hth

[Robin in DFW]

and made better sense of it all. Plus, in my panic I reposted with a different, more appropriate title hoping to get some more responses.

Thank you again. This is really bugging me. I'm very type A and like to have all my ducks in a row ALL. THE. TIME. :D

I'm almost inclined to think just having my student read through some of the Rhetoric suggestions would be, by far, better than nothing!

Robin