What is the argument that Catholics are not Christians?

[LG Gone Wild]

I know this is a touchy subject but I have never understood what drives this view point. Frankly, I am tired of being puzzled by it.

I can understand why someone may not like Catholics or like the Roman Catholic Church, or care for highly organized religion. I am not getting the "Catholics aren't Christians" bit at all.

[GothicGyrl]

I'm sure I will be corrected on this, but the argument, as I've heard it is:

Catholics are not Christians because they believe in worshiping the Virgin instead of God, and they worship a false idol (the virgin and the saints).

That's the biggest one most repeated to me. But I've also heard that it is doctrinal issues that make them "not Christian", though I'm not quite sure what those are, as I get a lot of "well you know...." when I try to prod.

Either way, that's just what I've heard. I don't necessarily believe it, but I've heard it a lot. I just tend to get mad and scream "we all worship the same God why do we have to fight over legalistic stuff", but I know that some don't see it that way either.

[chiguirre]

I had to ask this once, too. The explanation I got from a former protestant fundamentalist was that because RC churches have crucifixes, some protestants think that Catholics don't know that Jesus rose from the dead. There may be other reasons as well, but that was the answer I got.

[Julpost]

Perhaps a good place to start??

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n2042.cfm

[Bess]

In a simplified answer is becausethe Catholics view salvation comes by works whereas Protestants believe salvation comes by faith alone in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Luther, who started the reformation, stressed the difference in the two.

[GothicGyrl]

I guess I am glad, after reading that link, that I no longer have any ties to any religion. It's too legalistic and "us vs them".

Whatever happened to just worshipping God? Why do Catholics, Christians, Protestants, Jews, Baptists, etc.... place so many demands, rules, etc... some that are even unbiblical, upon themselves, when all they should really be doing is just worshipping God?

I guess I just don't get it.

[LG Gone Wild]

Catholics are not Christians because they believe in worshiping the Virgin instead of God, and they worship a false idol (the virgin and the saints).


I suppose I can see how the showing reverence of to Mary and the saints can be misconstrued by non-Catholics as worshiping idols.

[cin]

That is the response that I always heard also. Of course, I was raised Baptist, so Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopals, etc. were NOT christian. Now, I am all grown up and thinking for myself (and NOT attendign the baptist church) so I can now see that there are Christians in all churches.

It is a heart matter, not a clothing matter, not a 'gee, they have so much gold in their church' matter, or a day they choose to worship matter. Even some christian churches have services on Saturday night >GASP<

Having said all that, I will concede that the catholics KIDS I grew up with did NOT have it in their hearts. They were not trying to be obedient to God. And yes, as teenagers, they went to mass on saturday night so they could sleep in on Sunday Monrings.

Regarding worhsipping Mary....That was one of the big arguments as I was growing up. And yes, that is idolatry, but not all of them do that. And....Mary was a pretty special girl...and deserves our utmost respect and honor....just not worship.

my ramblings were doen with a 3 yr old on my lap, please forgive all the typos, as I know there are MANY....

[Julpost]

I guess I just don't see the rules as coming from us, I look for what does God say? Since I do believe the Bible is from God, I take what it says for what is the truth.

If Jesus said the He is the way to the Father, then that's what I'm going to believe.

If God said in the Old Testament not to bow down to idols, then I don't think I should do it.

If Jesus said to look for the NARROW path, then that's probably the way I'll look for.

[Sixmeadows]

they are Christian. There are many protestant denominations that like to major on non essential pieces of doctrine. :o

(This could be hurtful since many Catholics view themselves as Christian.)

Cheri

[GothicGyrl]

Regarding worhsipping Mary....That was one of the big arguments as I was growing up. And yes, that is idolatry, but not all of them do that. And....Mary was a pretty special girl...and deserves our utmost respect and honor....just not worship.

Right... and like I said, the ones who bemoaning Catholics as not Christian, don't see what you said--they just see "they are worshipping the wrong person" and automatically launch into "not christian".

Again, I don't have any dog in this fight at all, that's just how I've heard it from both sides.. The Catholic side will say what you did--that Mary was pretty special and she deserves our worship, while the Christian side says "but you are worshipping the wrong person" and then they fight. ;)

And the fighting is what makes this bad. Doesn't make either side look appealing to the non-of faith-person.

[Linda in NE]

Please, I'm making very broad generalizations here, but the gist of the schism between the Catholic faith and some of the more conservative Protestant believers as I understand it boils down to beliefs about the completeness and inerrancy of scripture. The Catholic Bible contains some books that are not in the Protestant Bible. The Catholic Church also views scripture to encompass the contents of the Bible as well as papal encyclicals, and other official Church interpretations of the Word. This, in conjunction with a lot of misunderstandings about the role of Mary and the Saints within the Catholic faith, seems to fuel the belief in some quarters that Catholics are not Christians. It's not a belief that I adhere to, but that's what I've been able to glean from reading and discussing the issue with both my Protestant and Catholic friends.

[8FillTheHeart]

as to the true teachings of the Catholic Church, that the sum total answer is ignorance.

We don't worship Mary nor the saints. Nor do we believe that salvation comes from works.

Every single one of those statements is false.

This is one of those conversations I prefer to stay out of b/c people are so entrenched in their misunderstandings that they don't really want to know or learn the truth.

Catholics are Christians. Period.

[PariSarah]

It starts with the Great Schism, between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, where mutual excommunications were the rule of the day.

And later, once you get Protestantism, same thing applies: each side insisted that the other is going to hell. This was formalized doctrine for both sides--Catholics say Protestants aren't Christians, and Protestants say, "Right back atcha, baby!"

The Magisterium (post-Vatican II) and some Protestant churches have changed in the last century: they recognize that people on the "other side" can be Christians, but that there are still significant enough disagreements that we can't just all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. And the mutual excommunication bit from the Catholic-Orthodox split has been (I believe) rescinded. So both sides recognize that there is still a difference between Catholicism and Protestantism--are differences, actually, and big ones at that. But the "you're going to hell for being a Catholic/Protestant" part has changed.

There are, however, some strains of Catholicism and some strains of Protestantism that retain the old feeling that the "other side" is on the wrong side of the highway, and heading in the opposite direction, IYKWIM.

[8FillTheHeart]

I don't view myself as a Christian. I AM a Christian. Christ is the center of my life. THose who believe Catholics aren't Christian are basing their understanding of Catholicism from Protestants who do not understand Catholic theology or on people who call themselves Catholic and have no earthly idea what that even means.

[LG Gone Wild]

That is the response that I always heard also. Of course, I was raised Baptist, so Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopals, etc. were NOT christian.

....

don't consider Lutherans and Episcopalians as Christians either.

[Plaid Dad]

The usual reason is that some Protestants believe that Catholics practice what they call "works righteousness," meaning that Catholics supposedly rely on their own merit rather than faith in Christ to win salvation. This is not in fact what the Church teaches, but it is a common misunderstanding. If you believe that what defines "real Christians" is sola fide, justification by faith alone, and you believe that Catholics don't teach or accept sola fide, then you will conclude that Catholics are something other than real Christians.

There is also the issue that GothicGyrl mentioned, concerning Catholic beliefs regarding the veneration of saints (http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp), including the Virgin Mary. While the other issues are ones of legitimate disagreement, this one is, in my opinion, largely based on misunderstanding of Catholic teaching.

The other very common debate can be described as Scripture vs. Tradition (http://www.catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp). Protestants typically hold to the Bible as the sole rule of faith, while Catholics accept the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church, which we believe is witnessed to in Scripture itself.

Catholic responses to all these critiques and more can be found here. (http://www.catholic.com)

Just for reference, I am a Catholic convert who was raised Protestant, so you know where I'm coming from. HTH!

[Staci in MO]

Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
Sola fide ("by faith alone")
Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
Solus Christus ("Christ alone")
Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")

Wikipedia on Five Solas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solas)

For the record, I would never go as far to say that Catholics aren't Christians. But I believe that they come to Christ the same way anyone else does: grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. I believe that many Catholic teachings can hinder that by putting an emphasis on works that is not upheld by Scripture.

[GothicGyrl]

as to the true teachings of the Catholic Church, that the sum total answer is ignorance.

We don't worship Mary nor the saints. Nor do we believe that salvation comes from works.

Every single one of those statements is false.

This is one of those conversations I prefer to stay out of b/c people are so entrenched in their misunderstandings that they don't really want to know or learn the truth.

Catholics are Christians. Period.

And what part of "As We've HEARD it" don't you get?


None of us have said "we feel it is like this" (except for one person).. the rest of us have ALL said "this is how we've heard it".

So please do not lump me or others in with the one person who has said they believe it that way. Your beef is with them (that one person), not us.

I won't go into the rest of it because I could tell you how I have seen and heard it considering I was baptised and grew up in, a Roman Catholic house. I know what Catholics believe and do in church because I've seen it, lived it and did it.

Just as much as you believe they don't do those things.

But that's not the point--the point is, none of us outside of that one person, have said we believe those things, only that we've heard it was like this.

[elizabeth]

Well, I rest my case .To point out a link that seeks to villify, distort and demean Catholics shows thatyou seek not understanding but a bully pulpit. I am sad that you see the world in absolute terms.

[8FillTheHeart]

Actually, to clarify just a little, the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is through grace.

From the CCC:
The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34


But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35
1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36


[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40


But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

[PariSarah]

. . . .Baptists don't consider Lutherans and Episcopalians as Christians either.

There are multiple varieties of every denomination you could name. Some Baptists do, some don't. Some Baptists are so liberal they would make some Episcopalians pray for their salvation.

[A.J. at J.A.]

don't consider Lutherans and Episcopalians as Christians either.

As someone raised Southern Baptist, I can assure you that we were NOT taught that all those religions were not Christians...sorry for the double negative, I couldn't think of a better way to put it.

Angela

[LG Gone Wild]

.

Nor do we believe that salvation comes from works.



I thought so. I am going over the replies and kept thinking "What about the bugger on the cross next to Jesus?" I thought he was saved and he certainly didn't have a lifetime of good works behind him.

[LG Gone Wild]

I'll reach the next bee level yet, durnit.:)

[PamInMN]

Some day there won't be "religions" and such a thing as a person being "this or that"............. when we will fit into society based on who we are as an individual trying to do the best that we can........ when we will no longer think of another person as a label... but as an asset to society and mankind in general.

Know me for how I treat you and others.......... not what my latest label is.

[8FillTheHeart]

Everyone was posting what they heard and yet not one person clarified that what they heard was actually contrary to church teachings.

I simply posted the truth.....all of those statements were false.

[GothicGyrl]

I said I didn't want to go here, but since it was brought up, I will.

We don't worship Mary nor the saints.

Please tell this to the millions of people who visit (still) a building that had an acid burn on the window in the shape of the Virgin Mary and who lay candles at the foot of this building and pray to it before leaving and who bring people who are in wheelchairs or have some type of deformity or need some type of curing, to this thing and pray to it that they be cured.

(and lest I get any neg reps for saying this, here is my proof: http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping286.htm ..Please focus on the first picture and see the ginormous collection of candles, pictures, bibles, prayer beads, etc.. *I* went there even)

Nor do we believe that salvation comes from works.

I cannot tell you anything about this except that a long childhood of "do unto others" (without the "as you would have them do unto you") is all I ever heard.

Again, I am NOT saying ALL Catholics feel this way. But yes, whether (g)you want to believe it or not, they do do it this way. That link is proof enough. If you need any more, just googling "Virgin Mary Miracles" will give you a ton of places to visit.

Again, I am NOT saying I believe that Catholics are not Christian. I am only showing proof that these things are done (that were said to not be done), in my neck of the woods.

[Eliana]

Since, as I understand it, the essence of Xtian identity is internal & between an individual and G-d, how can anyone every judge that another person is or is not a Xtian, except based on the individual's self-report?

I can see evaluating actions or doctrines as in or outside of a particular domination or the broader realm of Xtianity (though who does this and on what authority, I cannot imagine), but if someone has a 'false' doctrinal belief does s/he lose his/her status as a Xtian?

Eliana (a very confused Jew watching in bewilderment from the sidelines)

[PamInMN]

Everyone was posting what they heard and yet not one person clarified that what they heard was actually contrary to church teachings.

I simply posted the truth.....all of those statements were false.


I think that is part of the problem........... a lot of the times we here this or that and when we really research it, we find out it wasn't true at all. I am a Christian Scientist and the amount of misinformation about C.S. is really kind of funny ..... I've heard it all.

Some day mankind will be past the labels and misinformation and just try to do their own sense of what is right and worthy of perpetuity.

[GothicGyrl]

Some day there won't be "religions" and such a thing as a person being "this or that"............. when we will fit into society based on who we are as an individual trying to do the best that we can........ when we will no longer think of another person as a label... but as an asset to society and mankind in general.

Know me for how I treat you and others.......... not what my latest label is.
Pam--I said this above. In my first post. Why can't we all just do this and not label? I so agree with you. :(

Eliana--Since, as I understand it, the essence of Xtian identity is internal & between an individual and G-d, how can anyone every judge that another person is or is not a Xtian, except based on the individual's self-report?

Because, as I've been told repeatedly, a Christian's job IS TO judge other's based on God's word. Now, they did say that they aren't to hold non-christians up to the same standards as they would other Christians, but I've been repeatedly told (over at another message board that I no longer attend) that any good Christian will not stop judging those they feel is going against the word of God because that is what God commands ALL Christians to do.

I do not know if Peek-a-boo will "peek" in on this thread, but ask her yourself and she will tell you that the above is true and has been said to me and others (including her a few times) before. By Christians.

[dirty ethel rackham]

There is a huge difference between "reverence" and "worship". I am Catholic, though not particularly skilled at apologetics, and I don't worship anyone but God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit. I may revere Mary and her special role in salvation - her "yes" to God's plan. I may revere the Saints who are examples of devotion to God, but I don't worship them. Reverence is not bowing to idols. Anyone who accuses Catholics of worshipping idols has not bothered to understand this faith.

[GothicGyrl]

There is a huge difference between "reverence" and "worship".

You are absolutely correct with this. And I do think the majority of people who claim Catholics as not Christian, don't know this difference.

However, I do understand this faith, growing up in it, thank you. And while YOU (and I)may see and know the difference between the two, there are some who do not and who even preach it from the pulpit as "worship" rather than "reverance".

[PariSarah]

My saying "Bob is not a Christian, but Mary is" does not have any impact on God's ultimate judgment of their faithfulness. So, yes, ultimately, it comes down to a personal interaction with God.

BUT, for Christians, personal is not the same as internal. Part of being a Christian is living out Christianity. (Think halakhah--how one walks is who one is.)

AND, for Christians, even though other Christians don't determine whether or not one is a Christian, other Christians are means through which God speaks to one. So, if another Christian says to me, "Sarah, you are not walking in Christ's footsteps," that might be God trying to tell me something. There are no easy "tests" or physical marks, so we need each other to help us figure out if what we believe and do is in line with what God intends Christians to believe and do.

My favorite example is this: suppose someone came up to you and said, "You know what? I don't actually have any ancestors who were from Africa, but I feel black. I'm going to call myself an African-American from now on." Those who actually are African-American would have something to say about that, no? I know it's an imperfect analogy (so please don't tell me all the ways it doesn't fit--I know them all, thanks), but it gets close. The label means something both to the individual and to the group, so the group doesn't remain silent when they seem someone appropriating the label unjustly.

[Sixmeadows]

and I should have since I did not have time to explain further and even for my poor choice of words.


What I meant to say is.. there is no good argument. Catholics are Christian.

Cheri

[Rhondabee]

The usual reason is that some Protestants believe that Catholics practice what they call "works righteousness," meaning that Catholics supposedly rely on their own merit rather than faith in Christ to win salvation. This is not in fact what the Church teaches, but it is a common misunderstanding. If you believe that what defines "real Christians" is sola fide, justification by faith alone, and you believe that Catholics don't teach or accept sola fide, then you will conclude that Catholics are something other than real Christians.

There is also the issue that GothicGyrl mentioned, concerning Catholic beliefs regarding the veneration of saints (http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp), including the Virgin Mary. While the other issues are ones of legitimate disagreement, this one is, in my opinion, largely based on misunderstanding of Catholic teaching.

The other very common debate can be described as Scripture vs. Tradition (http://www.catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp). Protestants typically hold to the Bible as the sole rule of faith, while Catholics accept the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church, which we believe is witnessed to in Scripture itself.

Catholic responses to all these critiques and more can be found here. (http://www.catholic.com)

Just for reference, I am a Catholic convert who was raised Protestant, so you know where I'm coming from. HTH!


Is it true that Catholics see the Pope as "Christ incarnate" on earth - that this is why he is "infallible"?

I am assuming now that this is just yet another myth, since no one here has mentioned this.

(Please know that momof7 is my dear friend, and I know that Christ lives in her. Since I know these threads upset her, and she may not be back, I decided to ask you instead - but my question is sincerely an effort to remove my own ignorance.)

Thanks!
Rhonda

[Ria]

I have not read the other responses, sorry. My experience has been that evangelical Christians believe that Roman Catholics are not Christians purely out of ignorance. Catholics do not bow down to idols, and those who think they do have a very skewed view of the faith. I can't tell you how many evangelical Christians I know who show absolutely zero comprehension of the tenants of Christianity; there are people of all faiths who do not have the love of God in their hearts. Don't judge a faith by them - Catholic or Protestant.

Ria

[Karin]

Because, as I've been told repeatedly, a Christian's job IS TO judge other's based on God's word. Now, they did say that they aren't to hold non-christians up to the same standards as they would other Christians, but I've been repeatedly told (over at another message board that I no longer attend) that any good Christian will not stop judging those they feel is going against the word of God because that is what God commands ALL Christians to do.


Interesting, and I believe you because I've met people like this. But I'm surprised since I the Bibles I read say say "Judge not lest ye be judged" (or other wording with the same meaning if it's a different version) and that each one of us stands approved before God, not man.

I was never taught that Catholics aren't Christians in the Anglican church I grew up in, although at one point in my life someone observed that whenever they spoke about religion with others they noticed that Catholics usually said they were Catholics and Protestants usually said Christian. But that was their personal observation, and that was a good 20 years ago or so.

As for me, I think it's a heart issue, not a denominational issue. It's also between a person and God first and foremost. Same with idolatry, it's a heart issue. Someone may quote to me that we're known by our fruit, and I know that verse, too, and that verse about it being man's day. But in Romans it says to our own master (God) we stand or fall. I'd have been off that same board as you, Toni, had I heard all of that.

Of course, I've also had my own situations where people didn't think I was/am a Christian because my theology differs radically from theirs.

[Eliana]

I guess I am glad, after reading that link, that I no longer have any ties to any religion. It's too legalistic and "us vs them".

Whatever happened to just worshipping God? Why do Catholics, Christians, Protestants, Jews, Baptists, etc.... place so many demands, rules, etc... some that are even unbiblical, upon themselves, when all they should really be doing is just worshipping God?

I guess I just don't get it.


Is that a serious question?

(If it isn't, just ignore the rest of this post, okay? ;))

First, let me throw a question back at you: what, in your opinion, does worshiping G-d *look* like? What does that mean? (Serious, non-accusatory question.)

From my perspective, how we live our lives and the boundaries we take on are based on what we view as the purpose of our lives. I think this is true regardless of spiritual conviction or lack thereof (though I welcome correction on this!)

I'm, obviously, not going to try to address the whole purpose of life question in any depth, but, at the most simplistic level, the purpose of my life is to bring my soul closer to G-d by using/elevating the physical world/body I've been placed in. I believe that the guidelines for my life, my Rulebook, so to speak, the Torah, is the set of tools I've been given to fulfill both that general life-purpose and whatever specific role I'm here to take the opportunity to fill, whatever unique contribution I have to bring to the world.


These boundaries are not oppressive barriers to full enjoyment of life, they are the walls which create a space for holiness in my life... and they are a precious gift given, I believe, to my people by G-d.



(And my strictures might not seem all Biblical to a Xtian (or former Xtian, as the case might be), but that's b/c Xtians are missing half the story... the Oral Torah was, according to my belief system, also given at Sinai and it is, again imo, essential for any understanding of Torah)

re: legalism

Here's an excerpt from the skirts/dresses thread in which I was responding to the term legalistic as a derogatory description of an approach to religious observance.


I belong to a community which is often derided by outsiders as legalistic.
Every aspect of my life is guided by my faith: the food I put into my body, the words I breathe out, the clothes I wear (both their material and what they cover), what times I month I am intimate with my husband, the images I see, how I use my money, the way I treat others, the days on which I work and those on which I 'rest'. I say brachos (blessings) before and after eating, after using the bathroom, when I wake up, before I go to sleep, when I put on new clothes or shoes, when I see a rainbow or hear thunder.
I pay intense attention to each detail of divine law, not because I am legalistic, but because I believe G-d 's words are not random or vague, and that each detail is worthy of my careful study. G-d is in the details.

I believe that I have been given the means to try to sanctify my life, to elevate even the most mundane aspects of life, to try to make my life holy, and that because it is such an important task, that I should approach it with at least the level of care I would approach working in a nuclear reactor. The details are not trivial, each one is important and there for my benefit.


Do I think everyone would be better off living as I do? No. Absolutely not.

Hmmm... I don't want anyone to miss this point:

Do I think everyone would be better off living as I do? No. Absolutely not.

I don't want my passionate articulation of how I believe I should live my life to come across as disrespectful or strident.My lifestyle and spiritual path are the right ones for me, I would never presume to know how another person should approach her observances and spiritual journey.

Eliana

[GothicGyrl]

Interesting, and I believe you because I've met people like this. But I'm surprised since I the Bibles I read say say "Judge not lest ye be judged" (or other wording with the same meaning if it's a different version) and that each one of us stands approved before God, not man.

Karin--As I've been told, this does not apply to a Christian from a Christian. Because they aren't judging you by man's standards, but by God's. (I need the shrugging icon here)

Of course, I've also had my own situations where people didn't think I was/am a Christian because my theology differs radically from theirs.

And when I thought I was a Christian, I was told this as well, including by some on this very board. So (insert shrugging icon), I just don't know anymore.

[Karin]

Karin--As I've been told, this does not apply to a Christian from a Christian. Because they aren't judging you by man's standards, but by God's. (I need the shrugging icon here)



And when I thought I was a Christian, I was told this as well, including by some on this very board. So (insert shrugging icon), I just don't know anymore.

Yes, well, I get irked when people don't look at the big picture but use one verse. That's a pet peeve of mine. Not that I'm always right by any means, but I have been studying the Bible a long, long time (I'm 48, so I guess it's been 26 years). I'd still call myself a beginner in many ways, but I've read it cover to cover at least 15 times, not to mention reading parts of it way more. I just don't find many people who've done that, although I know others have. I try to keep my detail-orientedness aligned with the big picture. I do have VERY strong opinions, I just try not to dump them on others because I just don't think any of us has it all right (or all wrong.)

Of course, I felt free to dump my opinions 25 years ago. I wasn't born with any wisdom whatsoever. None. I was totally ignorant at birth and it's been an uphill process ever since.

[j.griff]

I haven't read all the replies yet, so I apologize and ask you all to ignore me if this has already been said. ;)
I figure most will tout the ideas that Catholics worship saints (or those who are more informed may quote the verses about Jesus being THE only way to God (the only way to the Father is THROUGH the son), so then praying for Saints to intervene on your behalf would be considered un-Christian, because you are not praying to Jesus. Still some other Christians would say (I have met them) that praying TO Jesus is idolatry- as Jesus is NOT the Father. :)
I have also heard the idea that Catholics believe that Jesus failed His mission here on earth, and that is why they believe in purgatory and good works as a means of salvation. (I have researched this though, and I know better :) )
Then there's the whole idea of a Pope (many think that bowing and honoring the Pope is worshipping him), the idea of the Pope being infallible, etc. that many disagree with and find to be "un-Christian". HTH and Hugs, I know that ignorance can be so frustrating to deal with. (I'm not calling anyone here ignorant so don't get your undies in a wad, BUT if you are making assumptions about the Catholic Faith based on what hearsay and rumors, instead of researching it without judgement, well...). While I still don't agree with organized religion, or the idea that my salvation depends on other humans (absolving me of my sins), I respect the Catholic Church and the faithful followers. :D

[GothicGyrl]

[QUOTE=Eliana;76466]Is that a serious question?
First, let me throw a question back at you: what, in your opinion, does worshiping G-d *look* like? What does that mean? (Serious, non-accusatory question.)

First, yes it was a serious question. What does worshipping God look like? If you want my honest answer it would be --I don't know, I've never seen it. All I've ever seen is "pray this way, do it that way, don't do it that way, no that's all wrong, etc.." (I hope you get what I mean with all that--eg: I've never seen anyone just do it. It's always had strings or rules attached to the "how" part).


These boundaries are not oppressive barriers to full enjoyment of life, they are the walls which create a space for holiness in my life... and they are a precious gift given, I believe, to my people by G-d.


And this is where I would disagree with you(but not in anger or anything).. Because I do see all of those rules and strings as oppressive. Again, I've never seen anyone "just do it". There has always been strings attached to the "how" and that's the direction I am coming from.


You said:
Here's an excerpt from the skirts/dresses thread in which I was responding to the term legalistic as a derogatory description of an approach to religious observance.

Quote:I belong to a community which is often derided by outsiders as legalistic.
Every aspect of my life is guided by my faith: the food I put into my body, the words I breathe out, the clothes I wear (both their material and what they cover), what times I month I am intimate with my husband, the images I see, how I use my money, the way I treat others, the days on which I work and those on which I 'rest'. I say brachos (blessings) before and after eating, after using the bathroom, when I wake up, before I go to sleep, when I put on new clothes or shoes, when I see a rainbow or hear thunder.
I pay intense attention to each detail of divine law, not because I am legalistic, but because I believe G-d 's words are not random or vague, and that each detail is worthy of my careful study. G-d is in the details.

I believe that I have been given the means to try to sanctify my life, to elevate even the most mundane aspects of life, to try to make my life holy, and that because it is such an important task, that I should approach it with at least the level of care I would approach working in a nuclear reactor. The details are not trivial, each one is important and there for my benefit.

And for me, this is entirely overdoing it and oppressive. Again, I am NOT saying anything bad towards you or anyone else who does this--this is strictly FOR ME and ME alone. I think the difference between say you and someone I would call "legalistic" is that you are not telling me that this is the only way to do it, or the right way, or that I should be doing this or that because it's what you do.

In fact, you stated as much in the rest of your post--that this was how YOU and only YOU did things and why you did it that way.. And I have no problem with you stating this!!! :)

I ONLY have the problem when it is stated as fact, or as rule, or as law, when it doesn't and isn't. It's like this: there is a verse where we are commanded to "go to our closets and pray" and to do so in silence. Yet every church I've ever been in has community prayer, OUTLOUD and in front of everyone--including but not limited to- calling people up for "alter calls". That to me is completely opposite what they are being told to do.

I just have a problem and where it becomes legalistic for me, is when people make up rules or laws or whatever based loosely on how THEY interpret Scripture. And then they expect everyone else to do as they say because of it.

[Mamagistra]

As someone raised Southern Baptist, I can assure you that we were NOT taught that all those religions were not Christians...sorry for the double negative, I couldn't think of a better way to put it.

Thank you for saying this. I was never taught such a thing either.

[Eliana]

Eliana--

Because, as I've been told repeatedly, a Christian's job IS TO judge other's based on God's word. Now, they did say that they aren't to hold non-christians up to the same standards as they would other Christians, but I've been repeatedly told (over at another message board that I no longer attend) that any good Christian will not stop judging those they feel is going against the word of God because that is what God commands ALL Christians to do.

I do not know if Peek-a-boo will "peek" in on this thread, but ask her yourself and she will tell you that the above is true and has been said to me and others (including her a few times) before. By Christians.


Oh. I'm not sure how to respond to that... I'll just sit here frozen in critical culture shock.

...but isn't there a difference between judging whether someone is 'going against the word of G-d' and judging whether they are 'really' Xtian? I'm hearing this faith not works thing (which I had always thought was slamming me!), but if you judge whether someone is Xtian based on works not faith, isn't that a contradiction?

Eliana

**Edited to note: critical as in 'critical condition' not critical as in 'judgmental' though, ironically, this is an area in which I have trouble not being judgmental... A spiritual growth opportunity... ***

[Julpost]

This has been interesting...I think these discussions can always be a good thing.

I do believe it all comes down to a person's heart and only God knows that. I admit I have limited information on the Catholic faith and I also realize I just need to keep on learning as well as pray that God will show me the truth. When I see a picture of someone kissing the feet of a statue, well, it doesn't sit well with me. But perhaps not all Catholics believe that's ok, I can see that. This whole learning process will be a life long journey. After all, as long as we seek God and His righteousness, he'll take care of the rest, right?

Can someone answer a question for me.....do Catholics believe that Mary was sinless? And do they pray to her?

I also saw a Google video called Messages from Heaven(you can google it, it's very easy to find, I'd add the link if I knew how to) about all of the Virgin Mary apparitions showing up all over the world. The Catholic Church has 'approved' many of these (I can't think of a better word) after their investigations. According to this video, these apparitions have said to build statues and shrines to her, that she is the co-redeemer with Christ and God. I'm TRULY not trying to start an argument, I'd just like to hear what Catholics think about this. I'll say again, I know there is a lot about the faith I don't know, and I'm willing to say that perhaps some of what I have learned maybe isn't true...time will tell as I continue to learn.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I'm hearing this faith not works thing (which I had always thought was slamming me!), but if you judge whether someone is Xtian based on works not faith, isn't that a contradiction?

Eliana

But of course.

[GothicGyrl]

Messages from Heaven (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1694135925255557653)


(just put the link in the post)

[Eliana]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliana http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=76466#post76466)
Is that a serious question?
First, let me throw a question back at you: what, in your opinion, does worshiping G-d *look* like? What does that mean? (Serious, non-accusatory question.)

First, yes it was a serious question. What does worshipping God look like? If you want my honest answer it would be --I don't know, I've never seen it. All I've ever seen is "pray this way, do it that way, don't do it that way, no that's all wrong, etc.." (I hope you get what I mean with all that--eg: I've never seen anyone just do it. It's always had strings or rules attached to the "how" part). I thought you were serious, but you sometime have some rhetorical flourishes. ;)

If this isn't too personal a question: what feels like worshiping to you(for you), or is that, perhaps, still an in process kind of thing? I wonder if there is a de-churching process, like the de-schooling time when kids first come out of school? (To be more general (I don't want to pick on Xtians!) a de-organized religion-ing process)


Quote:
These boundaries are not oppressive barriers to full enjoyment of life, they are the walls which create a space for holiness in my life... and they are a precious gift given, I believe, to my people by G-d.
And this is where I would disagree with you(but not in anger or anything).. Because I do see all of those rules and strings as oppressive. Again, I've never seen anyone "just do it". There has always been strings attached to the "how" and that's the direction I am coming from.
Whoops! I left off my qualifier!! I meant the above to apply to *me*, sorry!

Of course, if rules, etc are being pushed on to you by people (who are judging you no less) they aren't going to feel like a gift!

I think I was trying to say that faith with a Rulebook isn't intrinsically suffocating or oppressive... like (lehavdil) Frost's comment about 'moving easy in harness' about structured verse patterns for poetry. Clearly it is/has been for you... and it makes me sad to hear of people experiencing religion(s) as pushing them further from G-d... to have a framework you are trying to use to be closer to G-d do that, well, I would be devastated. ((Toni))

You said:
Quote:
Here's an excerpt from the skirts/dresses thread in which I was responding to the term legalistic as a derogatory description of an approach to religious observance.

Quote:I belong to a community which is often derided by outsiders as legalistic.
Every aspect of my life is guided by my faith: the food I put into my body, the words I breathe out, the clothes I wear (both their material and what they cover), what times I month I am intimate with my husband, the images I see, how I use my money, the way I treat others, the days on which I work and those on which I 'rest'. I say brachos (blessings) before and after eating, after using the bathroom, when I wake up, before I go to sleep, when I put on new clothes or shoes, when I see a rainbow or hear thunder.
I pay intense attention to each detail of divine law, not because I am legalistic, but because I believe G-d 's words are not random or vague, and that each detail is worthy of my careful study. G-d is in the details.

I believe that I have been given the means to try to sanctify my life, to elevate even the most mundane aspects of life, to try to make my life holy, and that because it is such an important task, that I should approach it with at least the level of care I would approach working in a nuclear reactor. The details are not trivial, each one is important and there for my benefit.
And for me, this is entirely overdoing it and oppressive. Again, I am NOT saying anything bad towards you or anyone else who does this--this is strictly FOR ME and ME alone. I think the difference between say you and someone I would call "legalistic" is that you are not telling me that this is the only way to do it, or the right way, or that I should be doing this or that because it's what you do.
[/quote]

I believe that we each have our own individual spiritual journey, and that I cannot judge how someone else should conduct theirs - I can share what has worked/is working for me.

I can invite non-observant Jews who are interested in sharing some of my life to join me for a Shabbos, a Chag (holiday), a class, or just to visit... and I do believe that,for a Jew, the Torah is the blueprint for our lives... but how and when someone takes on pieces of it, or not, is my concern only in terms of giving love and support as someone figures out their own relationship with the Divine.... and judging someone for any of it is fundamentally horrifying. It goes against everything I believe and have been taught.

...but Judaism doesn't hold that non-Jews would be better off as Jews. (When someone wants to convert, they are asked, basically 'whatever for? It's hard to be a Jew, on a lot of levels, and you can be just a good a person and serve G-d just as much as a Righteous Gentile...' )


In fact, you stated as much in the rest of your post--that this was how YOU and only YOU did things and why you did it that way.. And I have no problem with you stating this!!! :)

I ONLY have the problem when it is stated as fact, or as rule, or as law, when it doesn't and isn't. It's like this: there is a verse where we are commanded to "go to our closets and pray" and to do so in silence. Yet every church I've ever been in has community prayer, OUTLOUD and in front of everyone--including but not limited to- calling people up for "alter calls". That to me is completely opposite what they are being told to do.

I just have a problem and where it becomes legalistic for me, is when people make up rules or laws or whatever based loosely on how THEY interpret Scripture. And then they expect everyone else to do as they say because of it.
__________________
I hear your frustration... and it reminds me that these recent threads have left me with a lot of questions about Xtianity... I think after Shabbos, I will try to pull them together into a new thread, though perhaps I will just end up even more confused!

I enjoy your passion, Toni, thank you for taking my response in the spirit in which it was intended and for sharing some of your heart with me.

Eliana

[Old Dominion Heather]

The podcast is wonderful. She and Deacon Tim discuss various topics, but I know they have covered the idea that Catholics "worship" Mary and many other topics. Both of the hosts are Catholic. Both are clearly Christians.

I can't recommend it enough. Cyndi is cool! :cool:

Here is a link to a discussion about whether Catholics are saved.

http://www.twoedgetalk.com/two_edge_talk/2008/01/are-catholics-s.html

[Karin]

Oh. I'm not sure how to respond to that... I'll just sit here frozen in critical culture shock.

...but isn't there a difference between judging whether someone is 'going against the word of G-d' and judging whether they are 'really' Xtian? I'm hearing this faith not works thing (which I had always thought was slamming me!), but if you judge whether someone is Xtian based on works not faith, isn't that a contradiction?

Eliana

Yes, it is. Some might then quote James 2 at you about you see someone's faith by their works, honestly, none of this is stuff that can be quickly or lightly bantered around. Honestly, and I say this as a strong Bible believer, you can support almost any argument from scripture if you look for it. You can even take things out of context and say that there is no God, or that money is the root of all evil (neither is what the Bible is teaching if you look at it--I'm picking easy ones.) This is one of the reasons it's so hard to get people on the same page, figuratively speaking.

There are many Christian beliefs I personally cannot justify or support from scripture, but I don't judge PEOPLE based on this because God is the searcher of all hearts, plus the other things I've said. I haven't always realized that there are true Christians in Roman Catholicism; that took many years of learning for me, because Roman Catholic doctrine and beliefs (and I have discussed this with very devout and knowledgeable Catholics, so please don't bash me--I'm all too familiar with inaccurate hearsay) are so different from my sola scriptura outlook. Even Christians claiming to be sola scruptura don't all agree!

One of the reasons I enjoy discussions, IRL particularly, with knowledgeabe people of other religions and other Christian beliefs is because I have a lot more respect for intelligent input from them than from second hand information. This doesn't mean I'll agree with them, but it gives me an opportunity to see their side of it as best as I can.

[j.griff]

Eliana, I am curious as to why you post Xtianity instead of Christianity. I understand why you type G-d, out of reverence. IMO (and in my ignorance most likely) posting an X instead of Christ seems a bit disrespectful. But maybe you are trying to show respect by typing and X instead. :)

[Anna]

I'm sure I will be corrected on this, but the argument, as I've heard it is:

Catholics are not Christians because they believe in worshiping the Virgin instead of God, and they worship a false idol (the virgin and the saints).

That's the biggest one most repeated to me. But I've also heard that it is doctrinal issues that make them "not Christian"....

GothicGyrl and others,

For all you guys who have posted inaccurate statements about Roman Catholicism.... it would be easily cleared up if a RC member would post a reliable link that explains their doctrinal beliefs. I can tell you now, though, that most of the statements made here were not accurate.

Just so you know---- I was raised Roman Catholic but I haven't looked at their websites in a while so that's why I wouldn't feel comfortable pointing you to a good link. My dh and I were RC for over 20 years. Then we were Protestant for over 20 years. After that, we became Orthodox and have been this way for 8 years. We plan to stay here. There are some similarities between RC and O but there are also some similarities between RC and P.

Regarding the *worship* of Mary and the Saints---- RC and O do not *worship* them. We reverence them, much like P's reference Luther, Billy Graham and many other P leaders both alive and dead. Do P's worship Luther or Graham or others in their Faith? Probably not but you sure reverence them.

Consider this---- If you believe in live everlasting, then the saints of God who have gone before us are still part of the church. They continue to be our brothers and sisters in Christ, do they not? We ask church friends to pray and intercede for us. How is that different from asking those who have gone before us to pray and intercede for us? Are they not ALL "in Christ", both those on earth and those who have gone on? Can they not ALL pray for us?

Regarding "works"---- RC and O both believe that works and faith go hand in hand. Leaving either one out can only offer imbalance.

Orth Christians receive doctrine from several places--- Revelation, Tradition, Bible, Liturgy, Councils, Fathers, Saints, Canons and Church Art. The reason why not "Bible only" is because most of these doctrinal sources were around in the Early Church long before the N.T. Bible was even in written format. You can read more about O doctrine here: http://www.oca.org/OCIndex-TOC.asp?SID=2&book=Doctrine

RC's should share a link for their doctrine and then the P's here can read for themselves.

HTH some.:D

[LG Gone Wild]

I think that is part of the problem........... a lot of the times we here this or that and when we really research it, we find out it wasn't true at all. I am a Christian Scientist and the amount of misinformation about C.S. is really kind of funny ..... I've heard it all.

Some day mankind will be past the labels and misinformation and just try to do their own sense of what is right and worthy of perpetuity.

The miniscule that I have heard about C.S. was from Agatha Christie books. It had to do with not wanting to consult doctors. I am sure you are rolling eyes but I swear it's true.:o

[GothicGyrl]

Except I had always heard that "X" was the symbol for Christ or something like that. Which makes sense if she is posting it as a respect thing.

[j.griff]

I hadn't heard that, and that does make sense if it's a respect thing. Interesting.
(thinking to myself here- is the X representing the Cross, or Christ on the Cross, does everyone else here know this except for me, LOL?????)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I hadn't heard that, and that does make sense if it's a respect thing. Interesting.
(thinking to myself here- is the X representing the Cross, or Christ on the Cross, does everyone else here know this except for me, LOL?????)

From wiki:

In ancient Christian art, χ and χρ are abbreviations for Christ's name.[4] In many manuscripts of the New Testament and icons, X is an abbreviation for Christos, as is XC (the first and last letters in Greek, using the lunate sigma); compare IC for Jesus in Greek. The Oxford English Dictionary documents the use of this abbreviation back to 1551, 50 years before the first English colonists arrived in North America and 60 years before the King James Version of the Bible was completed. At the same time, Xian and Xianity were in frequent use as abbreviations of "Christian" and "Christianity"; and nowadays still are sometimes so used, but much less than "Xmas". The proper names containing the name "Christ" other than aforementioned are rarely abbreviated in this way (e.g. Hayden Xensen for the actor name "Hayden Christensen"). This apparent usage of "X" to spell the syllable "kris" (rather than the sounds "ks") has extended to "xtal" for "crystal", and on florists' signs "xant" for "chrysanthemum"[5] (though these words are not etymologically related to "Christ"; "crystal" comes from a Greek word meaning "ice"; "chrysanthemum" comes from Greek words meaning "golden flower"; "Christ" comes from a Greek word meaning "anointed").

[LG Gone Wild]

GothicGyrl and others,

RC and O do not *worship* them. We reverence them, much like P's reference Luther, Billy Graham and many other P leaders both alive and dead. Do P's worship Luther or Graham or others in their Faith? Probably not but you sure reverence them.

Consider this....

If you believe in live everlasting, then the saints of God who have gone before us are still part of the church. They continue to be our brothers and sisters in Christ, do they not? We ask church friends to pray and intercede for us. How is that different from asking those who have gone before us to pray and intercede for us? Are they not ALL "in Christ", both those on earth and those who have gone on? Can they not ALL pray for us?

Regarding "works"---- RC and O both believe that works and faith go hand in hand. Leaving either one out can only offer imbalance.

Orth Christians receive doctrine from several places--- Revelation, Tradition, Bible, Liturgy, Councils, Fathers, Saints, Canons and Church Art. The reason why "not Bible only" is because most of these doctrinal sources were around in the Early Church long before the N.T. Bible was even in written format. You can read more about O doctrine here: http://www.oca.org/OCIndex-TOC.asp?SID=2&book=Doctrine

.:D

I hadn't quite thought if it that way.

[j.griff]

aahhhhhh, thanks for saving me the search, :D

[PariSarah]

(thinking to myself here- is the X representing the Cross, or Christ on the Cross, does everyone else here know this except for me, LOL?????)

The first letter of Christ in Greek (Christos) is a chi, which looks like our letter X. So the X (Greek letter chi) was and is used as a symbol for Christ.

I just use it as shorthand. I hadn't heard of anyone using it out of respect in the way Jews refrain from using the divine name out of respect.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

aahhhhhh, thanks for saving me the search, :D

And a tiny bit more:

The word "Christ" and its compounds, including "Christmas", have been abbreviated for at least the past 1,000 years, long before the modern "Xmas" was commonly used. "Christ" was often written as "XP" or "Xt"; there are references in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle as far back as 1021 AD. This X and P arose as the uppercase forms of the Greek letters χ and ρ), used in ancient abbreviations for Χριστος (Greek for "Christ"), and are still widely seen in many Eastern Orthodox icons depicting Jesus Christ. The labarum, an amalgamation of the two Greek letters rendered as ☧, is a symbol often used to represent Christ in Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christian Churches.[2]

[PariSarah]

Pammy with the an-sa!

Oh yeah!

[GothicGyrl]

GothicGyrl and others,

For all you guys who have posted inaccurate statements about Roman Catholicism.... it would be easily cleared up if a RC member would post a reliable link that explains their doctrinal beliefs. I can tell you now, though, that most of the statements made here were not accurate.

Firstly, I really wish people would read the WHOLE thread before passing condemnation on someone. WE did not say those things, we said we HEARD those things said to US when we asked the questions. WE never said WE believed those things, only that we had heard those things from others who did believe it.

Secondly, I am a baptised and once attending Roman Catholic myself. I KNOW what was done in my church and how it was done and it was NOT reverance, it was worshipping.

Thirdly, read the link I posted on the bottom of page one-- Messages from Heave---and you will hear for yourself, FROM CATHOLICS and Catholic Priests, that say they "Worship" Mary and anything involving her.

In short, we are not making these things up or passing them on as lies. I've posted two links as proof--one of which comes straight from their mouths!

I also never said I ever believed in the whole "Catholics are not Christians" bit. I simply said this is what I've seen, heard, and been raised in.

[j.griff]

And I have learned something new today, :D thanks Pam (it amazes me the many different things we can learn here, due to the diversity of the folks that post here- that's just awesome!)

[PrairieAir]

I guess I just don't see the rules as coming from us, I look for what does God say? Since I do believe the Bible is from God, I take what it says for what is the truth.

What is a Christian? Acts 11 tells us where the term originated. In skimming the chapter, I don't see the explanation of the new word that was coined, but it was because the disciples of Christ spoke of having "Christ in".

So a Christian is someone who is saved and has "Christ in", correct? Let's take it back to what you said and I have quoted here. What does God say in His Word is required for salvation? (I don't know whether or not this is the Catholic belief, but I'm trying to take it from what I believe and what I gather your belief would be as well from what you've said.) As an answer I give you this:
Romans 10:9-13
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

It seems to me that the requirement for being saved and therefore a "Christian" is really quite simple. Now, different denominations (of which Catholic is one) have different beliefs. The reason for this is because man tends to make things more complicated for himself. That's what religion is all about, IMO. Religion is man trying to find his own salvation and entangling himself even more in the process when God has already provided the way. FWIW, I think we're all guilty of a little religious thinking now and then.;) I'm not picking on any one group's rituals or beliefs.

All of this extra stuff--the rites, rituals, practices of all our different denominations--does not affect salvation. All of that is in our walk with God. There are benefits to walking according to God's Word, but it is a separate matter from salvation. Regardless of how you practice your faith, if you are saved (see above verses), you are a Christian.

Let me ask another question of everyone. Who benefits from all the division among the different Christian sects? Who do we glorify when we squabble and fight over who has the right to call themselves a Christian? Could it be...Satan? (I hope you read that in the same Church Lady voice I typed it in;))

[LG Gone Wild]

(Please know that momof7 is my dear friend, and I know that Christ lives in her. Since I know these threads upset her, and she may not be back, I decided to ask you instead - but my question is sincerely an effort to remove my own ignorance.)



I've really learned quite a bit of insight from the posts, even the ones that got a bit dodgy. There is a lot of good stuff in this thread so she needn't feel enraged and that I am glad she posted.

[LG Gone Wild]

As someone raised Southern Baptist, I can assure you that we were NOT taught that all those religions were not Christians...sorry for the double negative, I couldn't think of a better way to put it.

Angela

What do I know?

[8FillTheHeart]

This has been interesting...I think these discussions can always be a good thing.

I do believe it all comes down to a person's heart and only God knows that. I admit I have limited information on the Catholic faith and I also realize I just need to keep on learning as well as pray that God will show me the truth. When I see a picture of someone kissing the feet of a statue, well, it doesn't sit well with me. But perhaps not all Catholics believe that's ok, I can see that. This whole learning process will be a life long journey. After all, as long as we seek God and His righteousness, he'll take care of the rest, right?

Can someone answer a question for me.....do Catholics believe that Mary was sinless? And do they pray to her?

I also saw a Google video called Messages from Heaven(you can google it, it's very easy to find, I'd add the link if I knew how to) about all of the Virgin Mary apparitions showing up all over the world. The Catholic Church has 'approved' many of these (I can't think of a better word) after their investigations. According to this video, these apparitions have said to build statues and shrines to her, that she is the co-redeemer with Christ and God. I'm TRULY not trying to start an argument, I'd just like to hear what Catholics think about this. I'll say again, I know there is a lot about the faith I don't know, and I'm willing to say that perhaps some of what I have learned maybe isn't true...time will tell as I continue to learn.


It is next to impossible to respond to these types of questions on a board b/c most people, me included, simply don't have the time to sit here and type out yrs worth of theology.

I will do my best to summarize Church teaching, but most of it is simply going to leave you with more questions because theology is a huge part of Catholicism. Scripture is taken as a whole. The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old but must be understood in the context of Judaism.

Yes. We believe Mary was sinless. However, Mary's sinlessness is TOTALLY and completely different than the sinlessness of Christ. God chose Mary to be the mother of the Redeemer from the beginning of time. She was to become the Ark of the New Covenant. If you think in terms of the Ark of the Covenant that simply contained the 10 Commandments, any who were not worthy that touched the Ark died.

The reason man needs a redeemer is b/c God cannot be in the presence of sin. God preserved Mary from sin. He freed her from original sin in order to preserve the "Ark." Mary was "full of grace." Full.....filled by God, not of her own violiation.....and that "extra" grace from the hand of God provided her the ability to not succumb to sin. If only those worthy were able to touch the Ark.....does it not make some sense that God would preserve the human nature of the woman He chose as the mother of His only son?

Conversely, Christ is sinless b/c Christ is God. Period.

Praying to Mary. Belief in visions and Marian miracles.

Yes. I pray to Mary. I pray to all kinds of Saints. I ask friends to pray for me. Do I try to lead my little ones to Christ??? Absolutely. When people say to things like "to Christ through Mary" it means simply that His mother will always lead you to Him. If I do it for my own children......surely His mother (whom is our spiritual mother b/c she is supreme example of motherhood) will lead us to Him more than we in our sinful humanity possibly can. It never implies that Mary is in anyway responsible for our redemption other than through the simple act of her "Fiat." This means that her "according to thy will" allowed God's Word to take complete possession of her body and spirit, she "becomes womb and bride and mother of the incarnating God."

Praying to a saint or Mary does not mean that you are worshipping them. It means we know they are in heaven and are living in the presence of God. Since they are able to pray without ceasing and we are distracted by our daily lives.....we are simply asking them to pray for us. Unless you don't believe in the prayers of others....I simply can't understand how anyone can object to the prayers of saints.

Did people flock to the disciples b/c they were amazed by their healing powers? Weren't those powers given to them by God to be His instruments here on earth to guide people to Him and believe? Yes, there are approved miracles and visions. Whether people use them to stand in awe of God and the saint's miracles lead them closer to God or whether people are mislead and worship the individual instead......that is a matter of a person's own decisions. People tried to become "followers" of prophets and the disciples instead of God/Christ. They always told the people that they were not the ones, but only His instruments. The people had to make the decision and still do.

[Karin]

What is a Christian? Acts 11 tells us where the term originated. In skimming the chapter, I don't see the explanation of the new word that was coined, but it was because the disciples of Christ spoke of having "Christ in".
All of this extra stuff--the rites, rituals, practices of all our different denominations--does not affect salvation. All of that is in our walk with God. There are benefits to walking according to God's Word, but it is a separate matter from salvation. Regardless of how you practice your faith, if you are saved (see above verses), you are a Christian.

Let me ask another question of everyone. Who benefits from all the division among the different Christian sects? Who do we glorify when we squabble and fight over who has the right to call themselves a Christian? Could it be...Satan? (I hope you read that in the same Church Lady voice I typed it in;))

I only quoted part, but this was well put.

[Anna]

GG,

I didn't think I was passing condemnation on anyone. My point in posting was only to help clarify and to ask the RC's here to post a link explaining their doctrine. That's all! My apologies if I made you feel condemned.

I don't remember adults in our RC church instructing us to "worship" anyone except Jesus Christ. Different churches, different teachings, I suppose. I know that in MY Orth church, we reverence Mary and the Saints, not worship them.

[Laura K (NC)]

nt

[LG Gone Wild]

a Catholic could create here or link would change the minds of some who will only hear Catholicism defined incorrectly by their own non-Catholic pastors. The ones who don't believe we are (or have the potential to be) Christian have hard hearts. Letting this thread go by without any more objection than that is really, really hard for me, but it's just not worth the effort. :(

This was a really great thread! And anyway, one was gracious enough to admit holes in her understanding of Catholicism.:)

[Laura K (NC)]

:o

[GothicGyrl]

Anna, no amount of reasonable argument
a Catholic could create here or link would change the minds of some who will only hear Catholicism defined incorrectly by their own non-Catholic pastors. The ones who don't believe we are (or have the potential to be) Christian have hard hearts. Letting this thread go by without any more objection than that is really, really hard for me, but it's just not worth the effort.

Forgetting that none of us have said "we do not believe Catholics are Christian"...

What part of that are you not getting? *I* NEVER SAID "catholics are not Christian".. I said simply that it was what I heard and here was the explanation of what I heard.

That is all. So please stop with the insinuation that some of us are bashing you, especially since I was one of the first ones to call a particular person on that bashing!!

Do I have a hard heart? YOU BET I DO.. BUT NOT BECAUSE OF THIS THREAD!! And certainly not because I believe Catholics aren't Christians (which I never said I believed in the first place).


(btw, if you are trying to repeatedly leave me neg. rep--it isn't working ;) because you can't leave neg rep or positive rep if you have under a certain amount of posts. It only comes up as neutral. Which means, I know who you are ;) )

[8FillTheHeart]

Is it true that Catholics see the Pope as "Christ incarnate" on earth - that this is why he is "infallible"?

I am assuming now that this is just yet another myth, since no one here has mentioned this.

(Please know that momof7 is my dear friend, and I know that Christ lives in her. Since I know these threads upset her, and she may not be back, I decided to ask you instead - but my question is sincerely an effort to remove my own ignorance.)

Thanks!
Rhonda

Hi Rhonda,

I am simply ignoring the rest of the thread. I read a lot.....went and made dinner. Thought about things for a while and decided to respond to one other post and yours (of course I would answer you!!) After this one though.....I'm leaving the thread and not reading anything else.

We believe that the Pope is only infallible in making univeral (as in to the entire world) church proclamations pertaining to only faith and morals. In absolutely no other areas are any papal teachings considered infallible. So....if they say something about science (as in Galileo).....they are not binding on the conscience of believers. However, in matters of faith and morals where the Pope declares from the Chair of Peter or if it is in unison with the complete magisterium (this means the Pope and all of the world's bishops).....those pronouncements are binding and are being made through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Popes are not "infallible" personally in their lives. They are definitely completely human and have all the same sinfulness as the rest of humanity (some more than others!!) It is only in their teaching office and in the scenerios described above that they are considered infallible and their teachings are considered "de fide."

If that doesn't help, private message me and I will try to explain it more thoroughly. :)

[Janet in WA]

Well, to be absolutely fair, the Catholic Church doesn't expect any of us non-Catholics to make it to Heaven. In their view, the only way to Heaven is through the one true (Catholic) Church. Non-Catholics might not be the only ones in for a surprise in the afterlife.

[Kelli in TN]

This was a really great thread! And anyway, one was gracious enough to admit holes in her understanding of Catholicism.:)


I have to agree. I found it fascinating. And big kudos to Anna, momof7, PrairieAir, PariSarah, Pam (and all her letters), Eliana, Plaid Dad, and Staci in Mo. You each made important contributions to the conversation and you did so with grace and humility.

I had nothing to say on this topic but I learned a bunch tonight from you amazing, insightful people!!!

[Tutor]

Eliana, I am curious as to why you post Xtianity instead of Christianity. I understand why you type G-d, out of reverence. IMO (and in my ignorance most likely) posting an X instead of Christ seems a bit disrespectful. But maybe you are trying to show respect by typing and X instead. :)

I am by no means an expert (so you know my "qualifications" for this assumption, I have asked an Orthodox Jewish acquaintance about this in the past; that's it :)). My understanding is that it is a reverence issue. God, including His name, is to be treated as Holy and not used lightly and not in a manner which can be destroyed (such as being written). Thus, they write an incomplete version. Because the Jewish people are awaiting the Messiah, also called the Christ, the name Christ cannot be written out either because it should be treated with the same reverence as the name God or any other name of God.

Eliana, if I have totally butchered this explanation, I am very sorry and ask your forgiveness.

[JFS in IL]

Hello? It is the Protestants that have strayed, ya'know :rolleyes:
We Catholics are the original, "real" Christians ( as my very Catholic in-laws will attest - esp. Sr. Thomas More ).

[PariSarah]

Well, to be absolutely fair, the Catholic Church doesn't expect any of us non-Catholics to make it to Heaven. In their view, the only way to Heaven is through the one true (Catholic) Church.

As I said above, the Magisterium has changed this view in part after Vatican II. It's complicated, but the short and over-simplified version is that non-Catholics may make it to heaven. The Church is still the vehicle of salvation, but some people may be riding in the car without knowing it, if you will.

[j.griff]

Ahhh, that makes even more sense, thank you for posting. I didn't realize :o the Jewish reverence for Christ the name (I actually thought the name Christ might be a wee bit offensive to Jewish people, since they don't believe that Jesus was/is The Christ)

Still learning...

[Peek a Boo]

wow! what a thread :eek:

I do agree that many people --not just Christians ;)-- tend be very judgmental no matter what they profess. I often find myself seeking out a secular group cuz I have beliefs that don't jive w/ many Christian denominations. Yet i approach each secular group w/ a "hm...i wonder just HOW 'inclusive' this one's gonna turn out not to be..."
I can see why many Christians feel "compelled" to judge another's actions , but disagree when they go so far as to judge their faith.

I do not agree w/ the Catholic doctrines, but after reading several books and websites on Catholicism wriiten FOR Catholics, I can appreciate that they are working w/in a set standard and that it can easily be misconstrued. [B]I really liked Plaid Dad's post --if you want to know what the Catholic *faith* stands for --go to the source. he pretty much summed up the differences. Same w/ Christianity, Islam, Wicca, or any other religion. But like the thread where the question was asked why people LEFT the Christian faith, a lot of the disagreement boils down to watching how others practice that faith.

I refuse to question another's faith. I might question their interpretations, but I will NOT judge their faith w/ God. I cringe when i hear pastors from pulpits preach that another denomination is going to hell. Do i think that 'all roads lead to God"? Not necessarily. But I do believe that the Body of Christ is much bigger than any one denomination or type of Christianity. The body consists of snot, heart, brain, kidneys, kneecaps, toenails, hair, spit, immune system, and pubic hair, to name a few. They each have a pretty specific job, tend to look NOTHING like each other, are entwined in their own systems even, and sometimes even work to the detriment of the other organs [like a fever]. But they are all tied together working for a common purpose.

Life.

And i absolutely believe that is what happens w/ the denominations out there --they are all trying to work for Life the best way they know how. They each have a specific purpose in God's plan and sometimes they seem to work to each other's detriment. We all have our own gifts and purposes: some of us are born and raised in one system or organ and find out we need to be in another. Some of us are still trying to find an organ or system to belong to. The body is pretty darn complex to navigate....

But I do believe that this is the crux of the issue-- many denominations think THEY are the Body of Christ, and the individual members/ separate churches w/in that denomination are the "parts". [in addition to any other denominations that they "approve" to be worthy of being part of the Body of Christ]. It's one reason i refuse seek 'membership' in many churches --i disagree w/ most of their doctrine.

anyway, there's my 2 cents :-)

[j.griff]

LOL, no disrespect, I just have this funny image of a drunk man in the "wrong" car, LOL. It reminds me of when my grandpa was going to sit in his car while my grandma was shopping for groceries, he opened the car door and sat down only to realize there was a woman in the passenger seat and he was in the wrong car. The cars were identical though, LOL (and people didn't always lock their vehicles when they got out of them). And I'm NOT saying that The Church is the "wrong car", but just saying that people "riding in the car without knowing it" would think it was, ;)

[Old Dominion Heather]

whoops... I got Cyndi's new board name wrong. It is CynthiaOK

[Karin]

since they don't believe that Jesus was/is The Christ)

Still learning...

Actually, there was a family on dd's swim team that are Messianic Jews. They practice the Jewish religion, but believe Christ is the saviour, etc. They interpret certain NT verses to mean that they are to remain Jewish even though they believe Jesus is the Messiah. I will say no more, because then it would be second hand!:) All I can say is that the dad and I had some very interesting and fun conversations (no arguing, but discussion.)

[Eliana]

Eliana, I am curious as to why you post Xtianity instead of Christianity. I understand why you type G-d, out of reverence. IMO (and in my ignorance most likely) posting an X instead of Christ seems a bit disrespectful. But maybe you are trying to show respect by typing and X instead. :)

I certainly mean no disrespect, but neither it is an act of any extra respect, if that makes sense.

Pam described the derivation (and much more thoroughly that I would have if she hadn't beat me to it - thanks, Pam!)

It is a custom I have had for a long time.

I think the only way to explain it without guaranteeing that I will give the wrong impression is to give y'all tmi.:o

Before we moved to Seattle (it'll be 10 years this Purim!), we lived for a long time in a small town in Oregon. The traditionally observant Jewish community was, as you can imagine, minuscule (about half a dozen families). (There was a larger non or less observant Jewish community and everyone did join together communally at the community center.)

As a young teen & pre-teen as my religious identity solidified, I often felt suffocated by the general culture and the thoughtless assumptions that everyone was the same as they were... they don't seem so enormous now, but the songs our choir sang, the greetings in the winter, the endless missionaries knocking on the door. This combined with my hobby of studying history (which left me with many vividly negative images of Xtianity) and the family stories some of my friends had about pograms in Eastern Europe meant I had to process a lot of alienation and, honestly, hostility and find peace with Xtianity, both past and present.

In that process, I found it helpful to be more vocal about who I was, being seen as who I was meant I didn't start resenting the assumptions. It meant, at first, passionate debates with the missionaries, it meant a lot of sorting out - and forced me to stop doing what I was resenting so much, making blanket assumptions about individuals. I meant learning to see the commonality of our hungering for the Divine while making sure that I articulated that our faiths are incompatible.

I learned to respect instead of resent, but I still needed to have there be clear boundaries - the large culture I live in is steeped in Xtian assumptions which isn't a *bad* thing, it just meant that I was most comfortable when I learned how to set clear lines around who I am, who my community is. And since I had such an ingrained discomfort and distaste for even the word Christ, I needed a work-around - so that I could use the term(s) and think about it in a less negatively charged way.

When I began using the abbreviations (drawn from the Greek my mother taught me), it was, gradually, transformative.

I have yet to find a way to reframe my reaction to crosses, suggestions? I shake and feel physically ill - too many associations with Easter pograms. But it is sadness and, not quite fear, not hostility.

This feels like undressing in public... and twice in such a short period of time. I don't generally share this kind of personal stuff virtually, let alone plaster it across a message board... but to be terse would risk conveying the opposite of the truth of how I feel.

Relating to other people with respect, kindness, and courtesy is very important to me - and assuming the best of others (dan l'chaf zechus) is an important mitzvah.

Thank you, btw, Jenn for assuming I wasn't likely to be trying to be disrespectful - you guys are really a special group, and it is a pleasure to get to 'know' so many people from so many different worldviews.

Eliana

PS If this is muddled or appears rude or unkind anywhere, please let me know so I can try to correct it.

[Sugarfoot]

I'll say a few things in the spirit of trying to be helpful to others' understanding:

As a Catholic Christian, I have no right to judge another human being.

Our priest refers to protestants as "our protestant brothers and sisters."

Christ did the only work necessary for our salvation when he died on the cross.

I would never assume that any other person of any persuasion was not as much of a child of God as I am. He is all-powerful and omnipotent, and we are all mere mortals, just trying to do the best that we can to follow Him.

Catholics don't pray TO the saints. We ask them to pray to God FOR us, just like we would ask any fellow Christian to pray for us. Scott Hahn says it best with the title to one of his books, "Any friend of God's is a friend of mine."

Below is the Catholic Profession of Faith. This is what we stand and say every week at Mass. There have been several links posted to various things, but I thought I'd type this here for ease of reading.

The Nicene Creed

We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of Heaven and Earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God.
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in being
with the Father.
Through Him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation,
He came down from Heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

For our sake he was crucified
under Pontius Pilate;
He suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day He rose again,
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
He ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord,
the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is
worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic
and apostolic church.
We acknowlidge one baptism for the
forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

May we all live in the peace that God intends.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Pam described the derivation (and much more thoroughly that I would have if she hadn't beat me to it - thanks, Pam!)



In the interest of full disclosure, Pam copied and pasted from wikipedia.

LOL

[lovemyboys]

That is the response that I always heard also. Of course, I was raised Baptist, so Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopals, etc. were NOT christian.

I'm really surprised. I've heard the statements about Catholics, which I don't agree with, and I do agree with your thoughts that it's a Heart issue. Amen.

But, wow, I grew up Episcopalian and have been to Lutheran services. I don't remember much about the Virgin Mary at all, much less worshiping her. It sounds like any number of other protestant denominations were just all lumped together based on mistaken notions. Seriously, I've probably attended services with a dozen different Episcopal ministers and never heard Mary referred to much outside of scripture readings during Advent.

I just find it pretty scary that you would have grown up hearing that. But it kind of clarifies some of the opinions about Catholics I've heard expressed in bible studies over the years. It's such a shame that there's such condemning ignorance out there.

Again, I totally agree that it's a heart issue, wherever you are. Thanks for sharing your story.

[Eliana]

Actually, there was a family on dd's swim team that are Messianic Jews. They practice the Jewish religion, but believe Christ is the saviour, etc. They interpret certain NT verses to mean that they are to remain Jewish even though they believe Jesus is the Messiah. I will say no more, because then it would be second hand!:) All I can say is that the dad and I had some very interesting and fun conversations (no arguing, but discussion.)


A Jew is a Jew by birth not faith or works. ;) But the religion they are practicing is not Judaism.

By definition, all traditionally observant Jews are messianic (though the term has been co-opted)- we await Moshiach (the Messiah), and we are very clear about how we can tell when he has arrived. (and, to be very clear, Xtians and Jews mean very different things by Moshaich - he is not, in any way to be divine. He will be an ordinary human with a very special job.)

So one can say that an individual Jew is a Buddhist, an atheist, a Hindu, a Muslim, or a Xtian, but that doesn't make any of those beliefs valid Jewish theology. (And all but the Islamic beliefs would be considered idolatrous/heretical for a Jew to hold, fwiw.)

There is no gray area here.

Eliana (finally getting to sound like the fundamentalist my demographic is categorized as ;))

[Janet in WA]

As I said above, the Magisterium has changed this view in part after Vatican II. It's complicated, but the short and over-simplified version is that non-Catholics may make it to heaven. The Church is still the vehicle of salvation, but some people may be riding in the car without knowing it, if you will.Generous if nebulous. :)

But that brings up another difference between Catholics and Protestants where salvation is concerned -- the Catholic Church does not believe that any of us (Catholics included) can be certain of our salvation. Protestants, on the other hand, believe they can know they are saved. When I left the Catholic Church and became a Protestant, that was one of the most difficult adjustments I had to make. And I may still not have made it completely after 30 years.

[Michelle T]

As someone raised Southern Baptist, I can assure you that we were NOT taught that all those religions were not Christians...sorry for the double negative, I couldn't think of a better way to put it.

Angela


I have several inlaws who belong to a large, nondenominational Protestant church, and according to them, all other Christians who do not believe as they do are not really Christian. They were raised Catholic, but now say that most Catholics, including their own parents, are going to hell. They consider all Protestant churches more liberal than their own to be hell bound too.

Of course, since I'm Jewish, I'm the most hell bound of all, so I try to ignore them.
Michelle T

[PariSarah]

(And all but the Islamic beliefs would be considered idolatrous/heretical for a Jew to hold, fwiw.)

Really?! That's fascinating--I don't think I've ever heard that before. Why Islam but not Xnity?

Oh. Duh. The Trinity. Okay, yeah, makes sense.

But that's still interesting--is that a majority position within Judaism? Is this across the board--Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox?

[lovemyboys]

The Catholic side will say what you did--that Mary was pretty special and she deserves our worship, while the Christian side says "but you are worshipping the wrong person" and then they fight. ;)


Don't mean to nitpick, but Cin was saying that Mary deserved our respect...but not worship. Your quote above changes what Cin said, which may be the issue for much of the mistaken impression (generally) about what Catholics actually do worship.
Sorry to butt in, but I noticed it since you highlighted it in your quote.:o

[Karin]

A Jew is a Jew by birth not faith or works. ;) But the religion they are practicing is not Judaism.

By definition, all traditionally observant Jews are messianic (though the term has been co-opted)- we await Moshiach (the Messiah), and we are very clear about how we can tell when he has arrived. (and, to be very clear, Xtians and Jews mean very different things by Moshaich - he is not, in any way to be divine. He will be an ordinary human with a very special job.)

So one can say that an individual Jew is a Buddhist, an atheist, a Hindu, a Muslim, or a Xtian, but that doesn't make any of those beliefs valid Jewish theology. (And all but the Islamic beliefs would be considered idolatrous/heretical for a Jew to hold, fwiw.)

There is no gray area here.

Eliana (finally getting to sound like the fundamentalist my demographic is categorized as ;))

Okay, I was paraphrasing what he said. He still called himself Jewish by religious observation and how they practised much of what you have brought up, right down to Hebrew terminology as opposed to English. Now that may not agree with you, and I can't argue this as I just don't know enough about what defines people. They also missed the Saturday swim meets and the Friday evening practices.

[Julpost]

I've read the following article and the reasoning makes sense to me. I'd like to hear a Catholics response. I am not trying to argue or cause dissent. I'm truly searching for the truth. When I was questioning Mormonism, I prayed for the truth and I learned God said in the OT to test a prophets prophesy, if it was false, then he wasn't from God. I found a list of 55 prophesies that were made that never happened. So that was that....no more questions.

So now I am searching the truth about the Catholic church. Are there any reasons I'm not seeing, that this article is false?


http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/rc101.htm

[DianaG]

His criticisms of the catholic church are:

1. That many of their practices and doctrines are not biblically supported such as praying to saints and praying to Mary for intercession. Much of the Marian doctrine has no bibilical premise.

2. The priest's role as intermediary to God, referring to the priest as "Father" (in a spiritual sense), the reverence given to the pope and the doctrine that he is infallible.

3. But most of all... the Catholic view of salvation. It is not by grace alone, but by works as well (baptism, confession, communion, etc). Basically, it boils down to a belief that dependence on anything but faith in Christ for salvation is wrong/false. This is the biggie, and while there will always be critics of MArian doctrine, anyone who knows the catholic church knows that they aren't actually worshiping her, and Marian doctrine could be tolerated by non-catholics whereas the works/salvation issue is a tougher obstacle.

HTH

[GothicGyrl]

Don't mean to nitpick, but Cin was saying that Mary deserved our respect...but not worship. Your quote above changes what Cin said, which may be the issue for much of the mistaken impression (generally) about what Catholics actually do worship.
Sorry to butt in, but I noticed it since you highlighted it in your quote.:o

Alright, I have it now. And it just proves no one really actually reads my posts, they just skim them.

What I said was in response to what Cin had said, but not that I was trying to say Cin had said my response--kwim?

However, what I didn't do in that post was add a qualifier--I'm so sick of those--but here ya go:
The Catholic side will say what you did, (CIN)--that Mary was pretty special and (qualifier--"that she also") deserves our worship, while the Christian side says "but you are worshipping the wrong person" and then they fight. (qualifier "As I've heard it said to me before by my Catholic family and by my catholic church" )

And since I've said those qualifiers throughout this thread, over and over--I did not think I had to keep saying them, over and over again.

So no--I did not change Cin's words around and NO I DO NOT misunderstand anything regarding the Catholic faith.

QUALIFIER TO INFINITY AND BEYOND--I simply said this is how I've heard it, learned it, seen it done, and practiced it within my own family for a number of years.

[Karin]

Alright, I have it now. And it just proves no one really actually reads my posts, they just skim them.
.

:DNo one actually reads your posts? I'll admit, at times I have skimmed, but that was not just limited to your posts and when I was in a hurry. But I've learned my lesson and try to read your posts now.

At any rate, I suspect that skimming happens more than many of us might like to admit.

Um, what was your post about again?;)

[GothicGyrl]

No one actually reads your posts? I'll admit, at times I have skimmed, but that was not just limited to your posts and when I was in a hurry. But I've learned my lesson and try to read your posts now.

At any rate, I suspect that skimming happens more than many of us might like to admit.

Um, what was your post about again?
Good.. and don't your forget that lesson either missy. ;)

And honestly, I do actually try to read the whole thread. Only once or twice I've skimmed but only because I did not want previous posts clouding whatever I had to say, not because I was picking and choosing. ;)

And my post--nothing really. Move along. :)

[lovemyboys]

And that's what I get for logging on and jumping in to a huge thread before I've seen a lot of it...so I haven't waded through and seen the qualifiers. Thanks for your patience.

[Karin]

And that's what I get for logging on and jumping in to a huge thread before I've seen a lot of it...so I haven't waded through and seen the qualifiers. Thanks for your patience.

That's where being ill is helpful. I've been on this board way too much today and have read every single post from nearly the beginning with only a few breaks. My chilly fingers can barely type. However, I am now going to shut this PC down for the night as I am way over limit and bound to have lots of crazy dreams from way too much screen time.

[Eliana]

Really?! That's fascinating--I don't think I've ever heard that before. Why Islam but not Xnity?

Oh. Duh. The Trinity. Okay, yeah, makes sense.

But that's still interesting--is that a majority position within Judaism? Is this across the board--Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox?

As far as I know, yes, this is an across the boards position, but I am no expert in non-Orthodox positions. Within traditional Judaism it is more than a majority view, it is, as far as I have seen unanimous. The only gray area is whether it is idolatry stam (plain? in and of itself?). It is, without question, idolatry *for a Jew*.

That is too simplistic. *sigh* Let me try again: it is almost certainly not categorized with, for example worship of Baal (there, that must make you feel so much better!), but the question of the halachic status of interaction with Xtianity, churches, etc does lean strongly towards categorizing it as a lesser form of idolatry. The issue is complicated by the Xtian censorship of European Medieval Jewish responsa on the issue... and the very real question about the pressures placed on Rabbis at this time on these issues.

Why does it matter how we categorize you, you might ask? There are very serious prohibitions and which, if any apply depends on how things are categorized.

In practice, the most severe prohibitions, for the most part, do not apply, but there are many which do. Ffor example, I may not enter the sanctuary of a Xtian church (not even a Unitarian one, as I found out in a l'maisa, real life practical, situation), but I could enter a mosque as Islam is unequivocally monotheistic *by our definitions* (though, obviously you guys are monotheistic by your definitions:)).

On a slightly more positive note: The Rambam (Rabbi Moshe Maimonides) in his Mishneh Torah (a 14 (15?) volume code of Jewish law) after discussing the persecutions we experienced from both Islam and Xtianity says:

" Jesus was an instrument in changing the Torah and causing the world to err and serve another beside God. But it is beyond the human mind to fathom the designs of our Creator, for our ways are not God's ways, neither are our thoughts His. All these matters relating to Jesus of Nazareth, and the Ishmaelite who came after him, only served to clear the way for Moshiach to prepare the whole world to worship God with one accord, as it is written 'For then will I turn to the peoples a pure language, that they all call upon the name of the Lord to serve Him with one consent.' Thus the Jewish hope, and the Torah, and the commandments have become familiar topics of conversation among those even on far isles, and among many people, uncircumcized of flesh and heart"

Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik, in the mid 1960's wrote an article 'Confrontation" about Jewish-Xtian dialogue:


http://www.bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/cjrelations/resources/articles/soloveitchik/



And a Wikipedia article about Dabru Emet, and controversial document published in the New York Times in 2000 about Jewish-Xtian relations.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dabru_Emet



I put these here as an into to some of the complexities of this process, in case you are interested.



Eliana

[GothicGyrl]

And that's what I get for logging on and jumping in to a huge thread before I've seen a lot of it...so I haven't waded through and seen the qualifiers. Thanks for your patience.
Me? Patience? ;) No honestly, it's fine. I did say it in almost every post, but really it is fine. :)

However, I am now going to shut this PC down for the night as I am way over limit and bound to have lots of crazy dreams from way too much screen time.

Crazy Dreams rock! And if I shut this thing down now--my dreams will be more than crazy.. I can't go to bed before midnight anyway.. never could.

[Mrs. Readsalot]

I was raised a Lutheran by former Catholic parents in a very Catholic area of Baltimore. The Catholic church or Catholic followers were never spoken ill of in our home. Outside of my home I did often hear that a problem non-Catholic faiths had with the Catholic faith was praying to Mary. That only God and or Jesus should be prayed to and that this is directed in the Bible. I never heard the non-catholic faith thought that Mary was being "worshiped" Although this is just my limited experience. I can also say as a Lutheran I don't feel as though we "revered" Luther. Yes, he had important points to make, as do several, at times, what are often, sadly, considered controversial members of this board. Luther was absolutely controversial in his time. I don't think Luther wanted to be revered he just wanted to make his points. Others rose him to higher prominance that he did himself. I think we should all have the right to state our opinions and thoughts on a matter and I understand that others may have different opinions. I welcome the opportunity to learn from others that are more informed and or educated than myself. In conclusion, I try to live by - do not judge least you be judged. I am not judging anyone here. I am just relating my observations per my upbringing.
Here is an interesting article I found this evening on the web.
http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/questions/2006/p;rayingtomary.html

[PariSarah]

In practice, the most severe prohibitions, for the most part, do not apply, but there are many which do. For example, I may not enter the sanctuary of a Xtian church (not even a Unitarian one, as I found out in a l'maisa, real life practical, situation), but I could enter a mosque as Islam is unequivocally monotheistic *by our definitions* (though, obviously you guys are monotheistic by your definitions:)).

Fascinating!

I appreciate you typing all that out, Eliana. I learned a lot. I don't know why it hadn't occurred to me that Orthodox Judaism would view Islam this way. Your position on Xnity makes sense (and I knew just a bit about this already), but I hadn't thought about Islam before.

Again, thank you.

Gosh, now I'm curious about Judaism and Native American "Great Spirit" traditions. But I'll chase all that down myself, someday, I suppose.;)

[Eliana]

I am by no means an expert (so you know my "qualifications" for this assumption, I have asked an Orthodox Jewish acquaintance about this in the past; that's it :)). My understanding is that it is a reverence issue. God, including His name, is to be treated as Holy and not used lightly and not in a manner which can be destroyed (such as being written). Thus, they write an incomplete version. Because the Jewish people are awaiting the Messiah, also called the Christ, the name Christ cannot be written out either because it should be treated with the same reverence as the name God or any other name of God.

Eliana, if I have totally butchered this explanation, I am very sorry and ask your forgiveness.

There are guidelines and customs about how/whether we use G-d's name, but Moshiach *isn't* one of the names of G-d (I'd type out the list, but with the letters left out it wouldn't be very clear! ;)) and he will not have any more aspect of divinity than the rest of us.

We have other ways of showing respect for the names of humans. :)
We say Moshe Rabbainu, Moses our teacher, and David Hamelech (Lit David the King, iow King David), Rabbi Moshe Feinstein zt"l (Zichronu Tzadik Livracha, may the memory of a Tzadik be for a blessing), Rabbi Ovadia Yosef shlit"a (SHe-yichyeh LI-yomim Tovim Aruchim" -- "May he live days that are pleasant and long". ).

And, my dear, no apologies necessary! :)

Eliana

[Eliana]

Fascinating!

I appreciate you typing all that out, Eliana. I learned a lot. I don't know why it hadn't occurred to me that Orthodox Judaism would view Islam this way. Your position on Xnity makes sense (and I knew just a bit about this already), but I hadn't thought about Islam before.

Again, thank you.

Gosh, now I'm curious about Judaism and Native American "Great Spirit" traditions. But I'll chase all that down myself, someday, I suppose.;)

AIUI, that is an in process thing - I know Buddhism and Hinduism, for example, are being reconsidered as possibly being more in the category of Xtianity and not 'classic' idolatry. I haven't seen discussions specifically about Native American faiths, but (bli neder) I will let you know if I do!

Perhaps you could help me with some of my questions about Xtianity? Assuming we are all still recuperating (and I thus have all this computer time!), I want to post some questions Sunday - these last few threads have raised a lot of questions for me about how things work. And you always say things so clearly (and so much more concisely than I ever manage!)

Eliana

[PariSarah]

Perhaps you could help me with some of my questions about Xtianity? Assuming we are all still recuperating (and I thus have all this computer time!), I want to post some questions Sunday - these last few threads have raised a lot of questions for me about how things work. And you always say things so clearly (and so much more concisely than I ever manage!)


Ask away! I hope I can be helpful . . .

[Tutor]

Drat! I knew I'd type something stupid or wrong since I was rushing to get to supper. (giving myself virtual dope slap)

Christ is a title, not a name... same results, but it was bugging me that the evidence of my stupidity was "out there" :)

[Julie in Austin]

"When I was questioning Mormonism, I prayed for the truth and I learned God said in the OT to test a prophets prophesy, if it was false, then he wasn't from God. I found a list of 55 prophesies that were made that never happened."

If I had been drinking coffee, I would have spit it all over the keyboard. Good thing I don't drink coffee.

Two thoughts:

(1) At the risk of rhetorical excess, you do realize that you may have staked your eternal salvation on whether someone's list was accurate . . . or taken out of context . . . or misconstrued . . . or whatever?

(2) Mormons do not believe that prophets are infallible. If you found a list of 1,055 "false prophesies" from Mormon prophets, I would still believe that they were prophets.

End threadjack.

[Daisy]

Wow! And to think I missed most of this. LOL. I don't care what you call yourself...Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, Pentecostal, etc. To be a Christian requires only 2 things.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

So we usually say that when one confesses with their mouth they are doing more than just empty yapping. So I'll take it one step further and say that "confessing with your mouth" means you are living out your life in a such a way that you show others that you believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

That's it. Pretty simple. I've seen Christian Catholics and Non-Christian Catholics. I've seen Christian Baptists and Non-Christian Baptists. That you choose to identify with a certain denomination is totally besides the point. Being Catholic or Baptist or Pentecostal or Luthern or Methodist will not save you. I prefer to just ask folks point blank. Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God, that he was born of the virgin Mary, that he suffered and died, that he rose again on the 3rd day? Do you believe that you are a sinner and that the punishment for sin is death? Do you believe that Jesus paid the price for your sin? Do you confess your sin? Do you believe?? It doesn't have to be complicated but man, we sure like to make it that way.

[OnTheBrink]

There are many generalizations being made in this thread, about both "sides" of the issue. I'm in no way an expert on the Catholic church--not by a long shot whatsoever. But I do know a thing or two about Protestantism and many things posted here are incorrect. I don't recall who has said what, so don't think I'm calling anyone out.

1) Protestants don't revere Billy Graham et al as the Catholic church reveres Mary. At least, most don't. I've never met one who did, but I can see that maybe someone would. Who knows? In any event, I've never sat in a church (and I've sat in many) where a human being was revered or counted on the same level as Jesus or God or any person from the Bible, male or female. So, that's not a common tenant of Protestant Christianity.

2) Not all Protestant denominations believe in eternal security. Calvinistic Christians do, Arminian Christians don't. And there are a slew of beliefs that fall in the middle. Mennonite's don't believe in eternal security, for example.

3) Christians are called to keep other Christians accountable to the faith. Some may call that "judging" and I know the judge-not verse has been misused a LOT (in general, I mean). Yes, Christians are to keep each other accountable to the beliefs of the faith, but that in NO way implies that they're to condemn anyone, believer or not, to hell. That is solely and completely God's place, not man's. Only God knows the heart of a man. Man can only know another's heart by their actions, which can be misleading, taken out of context or misconstrued. Man doesn't have grain of sand's worth of grace that God does, nor does man have that much holiness to be in position to make such decisions.

4) I think it's an erroneous and dangerous thing to lump entire denominations as this or that and then label them, or assume things. It really doesn't matter one iota to God what church we attend or what denom we belong to. God has ONE book of life, and we're either listed in it or we're not. If you are a follower of Christ, then the Bible is the basis of belief. The Bible makes clear how one is saved. For me, I choose to look at one's heart and life over what church they attend.

And now Alton Brown is on and I'm distracted. I think this was all I wanted to say. :D

OH, not it's not! Erwin Lutzer has written a great book that dissects Christian doctrines. It's called "Doctrine's That Divide." It's a worthy read.

[*anj*]

Jumping in (with fear and trembling.)
Credentials: Converted to Catholicism in college. Learned Catholicism from Dominican Friars, who are no slouches. Bachelor's degree in Religion. Presently worshiping in a Calvary Chapel, though my heart is torn between it and my Presbyterian (PCA) church.

Okay, now my attempt to answer that question.
After reading lo these many pages of questions and answers I am surprised that no one has made the distinction between what "individual Catholics believe/think/see" and the official teaching of the Catholic church. There is a difference.
Although the Catholic Church is one Church, there are many different expressions of Catholicism within that one church. I have friends who run the gamut in their personal interpretations and adherence to various church teachings. This is why you can no more say "what do Catholics believe?" than "what do Protestants believe?" Of course there are universal beliefs, but people often differ in other beliefs. And official Catholic teaching is promoted in some places more than others. For example, the official teaching is that the use of artificial forms of birth control is sinful, (http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp) but I was personally advised by at least three priests to use it anyway. This isn't to go off into that tangent, but I'm just showing one reason that you need to actually clarify whether you're talking about the personal opinions of individuals or the stated teaching of the institution.

Oh, and for the record. I believe that all churches contain some Christians and some people who think they are Christians. I personally became a Christian while I was still in the RCC, and I have friends whom I believe to be Christians who are practicing Catholics.

[*anj*]

Can someone answer a question for me.....do Catholics believe that Mary was sinless? And do they pray to her?


The Catholic church does teach that Mary was sinless (and a perpetual virgin.) Yes, it is true that individual Catholics pray to Mary and that is also official teaching (praying to saints.) But you have to understand that within Catholicism there are different kinds of prayer. Prayer to Mary is considered intercessory prayer, or a prayer asking her (or other saints) to pray for something/someone. The problem that most Protestants have with this is that while we do ask other believers to pray for us, we see no Biblical evidence for asking deceased people to pray for us. Even if their souls are in heaven, there is nothing in Scripture to support that practice. In fact, we are told not to try and communicate with the spirits of the dead. (I understand that the lack of Biblical support is not problematic for Catholics, because the practice is supported by church Tradition and Deutero-canonical literature.)

[Amy in Orlando]

I'm sick (really actually sick) and reading this thread makes me tired and sad. We're Catholic. We've been excluded from every big homeschool group in Central Florida because I can't sign a statement of faith and even if I did, it's been made clear to me that we would not be accepted into the group as "Christian-enough." The secular groups here have been the same - we're "too" religious to be really accepted by those groups. The one Catholic group that I found isn't a good fit either in that we don't go to Mass everyday. It's a lose-lose situation in that department for us.

We've had people we thought were friends who would not attend the post-ceremonial celebration of our kids' baptisms, communions or confirmations because of what they thought they knew about our religion. We never asked them to actually come to our church (unless they wanted) just to attend a bbq or brunch or whatever afterwards. This bothers me because we've been asked by those same people to many similar celebrations and I've always made it a point to find out what the celebration was about and what that family believes. We go and we learn and we appreciate our differences.

I find it disheartening to see so many people here that simply dismiss my faith. I find this whole thread disheartening. I appreciate the many posts of people who have said that it is between an individual and God. I believe this to be true. But, there are enough posts that make me leery of participating here. It surprises me on this board that my family can be judged by people so unwilling to do some basic research. Isn't that what we're trying to teach our children? How to find the information needed to form a solid opinion?

For the record, we do not worship Mary or the saints. No one I've ever known has done this. Intercession, imo, is no different than asking for prayers on this board. I've never and have never seen anyone kiss a statue in or outside of the church. (Now if I were ever lucky enough to see the statue of David, I might have to kiss that.) I am a Christian and I will not defend that to anyone. And, I would never ask anyone to defend their Christianity to me.

And, now, I'm going to go sleep - hopefullly for a few days. Hope I don't sound too crazy.

[Laura K (NC)]

1. Who is bashing anybody? I'm confused. Maybe your post is misplaced. If you click on the little note icon to the lower right of my post you will reply directly to me. If you have posted to me in error, you need not read this post any further.

2. I don't feel persecuted. If you choose to read carefully, you will note no feelings of persecution in the post I tried to delete, in any post I have written, OR in my M.O.

3. Stop being so condescending.

4. I don't leave negative rep points. They are so childish. The whole rep point system has really got to go. If you want to heap coals on somebody, slam them out in the open like you just did me. (btw, if you are trying to repeatedly leave me neg. rep--it isn't working because you can't leave neg rep or positive rep if you have under a certain amount of posts. It only comes up as neutral. Which means, I know who you are )
Maybe you're not as smart as you think you are. ;)

[Amy in Orlando]

1. Who is bashing anybody? I'm confused. Maybe your post is misplaced. If you click on the little note icon to the lower right of my post you will reply directly to me. If you have posted to me in error, you need not read this post any further.

2. I don't feel persecuted. If you choose to read carefully, you will note no feelings of persecution in the post I tried to delete, in any post I have written, OR in my M.O.

3. Stop being so condescending.

4. I don't leave negative rep points. They are so childish. The whole rep point system has really got to go. If you want to heap coals on somebody, slam them out in the open like you just did me. Wasn't that easy?

I'm not directing my post at anyone in particular, just the general feeling I had after reading through this thread.


Are you talking to me? I wasn't being condescending - or I didn't mean to be. I'm sorry if you took it that way, Laura.

I only give positive rep points - if anything. I would never use them to make someone feel bad. Heck, I hardly ever even use them.

Ugh -- I think maybe (hopefully) you're talking to someone besides me. I don't think I slammed anyone or raked anyone over coals.

Gaaahhh ... if I did, I'm truly sorry. (Note to self, only post when you are of sound mind and body)

[Eliana]

I find it disheartening to see so many people here that simply dismiss my faith. I find this whole thread disheartening. I appreciate the many posts of people who have said that it is between an individual and God. I believe this to be true. But, there are enough posts that make me leery of participating here. It surprises me on this board that my family can be judged by people so unwilling to do some basic research. Isn't that what we're trying to teach our children? How to find the information needed to form a solid opinion?



((Amy)) I was shaken by some of the posts, and I'm Jewish not Catholic! I can only imagine how *you* (and the other Catholics here) must feel.

There will always been people whose assumptions are so firmly rooted that their biases seem unalterable, and it is very hurtful to be on the receiving end of that.... but most people don't even realize how many unsupported assumptions they are working off of (I found a few of my own today, and am still processing it!) - to take something less personal: look at all the people who are convinced that Senator Obama is a Muslim! It is demonstrably untrue, but has taken such root that it is hard to clear up. ...and he's got a website and advertisements and everything!

It isn't malice, it's prejudice. And it is ugly and hurtful, but it isn't about *you*, or even your faith, it's the image they hold of your faith. ...at least y'all don't go to war over it anymore, right?

I'm sick and tired too - I hope I don't look through all the posts I made while I was sick and feel I need to go away and hide for a few months! (Your post, btw, makes perfect sense - you made me cry, sweetheart. My heart aches for you, and I wish I could do something to ease your pain.)

Eliana

[admin]

Sorry everyone. Looks like this is starting to spiral out of control. Closing the thread now.