Smaller and purer, or bigger and broader: where are the classical homeschoolers?

[Laura K (NC)]

When I first started visiting TWTM forums however many years ago I was at once impressed by the dedication of moms to the classical homeschooling method and academic rigor. When I felt a little puny, I could come to the boards and find new strength to provide my kids with my best effort.

Now I come to the boards and the rigorous homeschoolers are either quieter or seem to be a minority. If a kid doesn't like math, then many simply suggest we switch to an easier program. If a kid doesn't like reading, pop books are okay... the classics are not for everybody, and don't bother reading them yourself because it's just not necessary. History phobia? Pick a prepackaged curriculum that doesn't demand much. We are granted permission not to teach basic science requirements if we know(?) our children won't "need" them, granted permission to do bare minimum on extracurriculars and count them as full credits, and granted permission to take the day or week or even month off if we're having a bad time of it. After all, we've heard that public schoolers aren't covering all that much, so why try harder?

It is my experience that we don't really need much encouragement to do less than is required for a well-educated, (and even more, a well-trained) student. What I really need is a kick in the pants to get off the computer and sit down with my sons and teach them -- and myself -- to know, or at least appreciate, as much about history, and math, and science, and literature (and logic, and rhetoric, and the arts) as possible, and not to scrape by on minimum requirements for any test or college requirement, and to overcome any phobia I or my kids have of any subject by treating the fear as a simple misunderstanding that can be overcome.

I'm glad there's a big crowd here. I've learned from so many of you and I do like it here. I only lament that this isn't a classical education board anymore, and people will ask basic questions about scope and sequence that could be so easily answered by a cursory reading of our hostess' own book, which is the namesake of this forum. It seems to me, but maybe I'm mistaken, that we owe her at least that much. I know every family is different, and we are obviously supposed to tailor the book's suggestions to our own style, but the whole spirit of the system seems to have left.

Or so it seems to me. In my opinion.

I'm trying my best, and I do think the classical method is superior. I sometimes find myself wishing there was a support forum for classical homeschoolers who follow The Well-Trained Mind, at least in part. I don't want excellence measured in modern public school terms. I want to be surprised at how much my kids and I can learn together. I need a push to go farther than the minimum.

I know that this will come across as such a criticism, and that people will take offense. I do apologize if anyone is offended... it is not meant as anything personal and I don't have anyone particular in mind.

[Laura K (NC)]

:o

[Jan P.]

What is your definition of a classical education? Many would say that SWB's book is really neoclassical. I think part of the problem here is that everyone has their own thoughts of what a true classical education is. I don't necessarily think that doing history in four year cycles is necessarily a classical education, but it worked for SWB's family and it is an "efficient" way of covering history in a chronological manner. Many things in TWTM are for self education, but the classical education of the past was a "mentoring" type of education. I think part of our problem here is that we have differing opinions as to what the "classical method" is. I've read TWTM, Norms and Nobility, Trivium Pursuit, and more, and everyone has a different take on the classical method. Even in reading SWB's blogs and her articles from her newsletters, I haven't seen her stick to everything she mentioned in her book. The TWTM is a guideline to go by. Some of us hold tightly to it, and others of us hold loosely to it. Some of us are the risky types that will make up our own curriculums and others of us are non-risk-takers and need textbooks/guides to hold our hands along the way. I hear what you are saying, and I do think that a classical education is superior. But everyone on this board is coming with different needs and abilities, so what you think is superior may not be what the next person thinks is superior. You don't know how much money I have spent in taking "experts" adivice about books (math programs especially) and having to dump them because they just did not work!!! Some of us have children with learning problems that have been professionally diagnosed, and I'm sorry but TWTM just does not address these kids needs other than giving basic guidelines for teaching (keeping notebooks, narration, dictation, etc.). I do think that in the earlier years of this board that there were not as many "classical books or curriculums" therefore we did discuss more in the ways of following TWTM to a closer degree.

Just my 2 cents,

[Myrtle]

"FWIW, no, I haven't rated my own post. -nt- "

I did.:D

I tried just giving you a positive rep privately for simply bringing up a neat discussion topic but a message came up and said I had to give points to someone else so I guess I must have already repped you earlier and so I just repped the whole thread instead.

From Tracy Lee Simmons pgs 14-15,

Thus nowadays may classical education refer to something not linked to the classical word at all--never mind the langauges--and get equated with what what might have once been called simply traditional or orthodox education. This is school based on "the classics," on the books of the Great Tradition, an education that serves to inform us of the best works of our civilization and to provide us with models for spotting ethical and aesthetic norms. These two functions the valuable "Great Books" programs try to perform. Used in this way, classical education describes the quest for what has also been called a "liberal education" or, more particularly, an education in the "humanities." And now legions of well-intending home schoolers rush to put dibs on the term and bask in the light of the glory they believe it to exude. To many home schoolers, "classical education" simply means the opposite of whatever is going on in those dreaded public schools. We can sympathize with them. I will only say to all these good people that extending "classical" to mark an approach or course of study without reference to Greek and Latin seems an unnecessarily promiscuous usage. But I am afraid we're stuck with it.

And although it is not apparent from that quote and Simmons makes this clear in the rest of the book, that while the study of Latin and Greek is necessary, it is not sufficient to making an education a classical education. For example, the local public high schools where I live all offer Latin to high school students but it's not a "classical education." For example, the following lists the classical course of study in a Boston high school about mid 19th century,

http://books.google.com/books?id=oosVAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA101&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=qShjs2-CG8vtDmh5lAwd4VgJ-k8&ci=127,385,733,729&edge=1

Anyone here doing Caesar the sophomore year and Virgil and Xenophon the junior? I'd love to read through some threads on how that's going.

We dropped Latin this year but will definitely pick it back up again next. I downloaded Xenophon from textkit.com with the best of intentions of making that my goal in high school. For right now I've been getting my classical education fix from reading the blogs of classicists and high school Latin teachers.

Carry on.

[Laura K (NC)]

Keep posting please!

:)

[RebeccaC]

Well this is probably not what you wanted but it is Susan's post,

http://67.202.21.157/forums/showthread.php?p=36162#post36162


Seriously, folks. Of COURSE you're supposed to adapt it. Of course you're supposed to take what you find valuable and then adjust for your family. Why else are you home schooling?

Listen, even within my own family, all four kids are pursuing somewhat different academic and vocational paths, and if someone were going to get really picky, I could probably rank them in order from "more classical" (oldest son) to "least classical" (that would be Ben). But that's why I don't plop them all into the nearest classical school, which would probably give them more stringent overall academic training than I can all by myself. I don't WANT them to get a one-model-fits-all classical education. I want each one of them to get a tailored, hand-made neoclassical education.

I've been saying for year now that arguing about which model is "more" or "less" classical is totally pointless. You should be thinking: Which model will meet my goals for my family, and within my family, for each individual child?

Which brings me to the REAL value, for me, of (neo)classical education. IT TELLS YOU WHERE YOU'RE GOING. The goal of a classical education is this: at the end of the twelve (or however many) years you educate, the child can gather information, evaluate it, and express an opinion about it. There are many paths to that goal.

I think that the paths we outline in TWTM have helped many parents design a journey towards that goal. And I have to say that most of the nasty attacks I've seen on us and on the book, over the past ten years, come from people who have totally misunderstood our intention: To equip you to get YOURSELF there. We're trying to strengthen and equip, not oppress.

So kudos to all of you who are trying to reach that goal. You'll make wrong moves, back up, try again, hit dead ends, turn around, re-evaluate...constantly, every single year. You'll never "get it." You'll be in process until that child walks out the door...to continue the process on their own.

Unless you lose sight of that goal, you're not going to ruin that child's education.

Those of you who aren't doing grammar are the exception. You're beyond help.

SWB

(P.S. That was a JOKE.)

(P.P.S. Kind of.)

[kathleen]

"Anyone here doing Caesar the sophomore year and Virgil and Xenophon the junior? I'd love to read through some threads on how that's going."

My son did Vergil in his sophomore year (Caesar in 9th) and is now doing Catullus/Horace. He'll study Medieval Latin next year. I do lament that he has not taken Greek! He wishes he had begun that earlier, as well, and he has a friend who is in the same online Latin class with him who is also reading Homer this year in Greek. So it can be done!

It amazes me that your local public high schools offer the Latin! Last year when my son took his AP Vergil exam, he was the only student in the whole Portland OR metro area (over 1,000,000 pop.) who took that exam.

For what it's worth, Laura, I have noted the difference on this board over the years, too.

[Myrtle]

"
My son did Vergil in his sophomore year (Caesar in 9th) and is now doing Catullus/Horace. He'll study Medieval Latin next year. I do lament that he has not taken Greek! He wishes he had begun that earlier, as well, and he has a friend who is in the same online Latin class with him who is also reading Homer this year in Greek.

When did you start Latin? What texts did you use? In retrospect, when would have been a good time to have started Greek?

[Gwen in VA]

I have a funny story to relate concerning "classical education." We are a family that holds VERY loosely to TWTM -- I love many of the ideas in it, but I would be hard-pressed to find specific examples of where we have directly followed TWTM. I wouldn't even consider the education that my kids have had particularly "classical."

One of the hallmarks of a classical education is knowing the epics of Western Civ, right?

Well, oldest dd goes off to college and takes art history. In art history, of course, it helps to know the stories behind some of the art. This is a small liberal arts college, so the prof usually asks around so a student can tell the story. Well, dd now WAITS and WAITS before raising her hand -- she is almost the only person who knows any of the classical mythology and medieval tales. I was dumbfounded! She has even thanked me for her education which is "heavy on the classics"!

So I now have NO idea what a classical education is, since my dd feels she received one but I didn't give her one!

(I know -- she REALLY didn't receive a classical education, but I was amused by this!)

[RebeccaC]

Now I come to the boards and the rigorous homeschoolers are either quieter or seem to be a minority.

what is rigorous for one child is too easy for another. I found much hope in the post of Susan's that I cut and pasted above why because it is reality. Some kids are cut out to be scholars and some are not. Are we to allow a classical education only to those kids who can sustain the most rigorous classical education. Only allow the parents of those kids to post? If so we ban Susan from her own board :o

I have been lurking on these boards almost since day one. I have found the posts of Susan, Jan P, Lori D, and Clair to be of great encouragement to me. I know that to some extent with at least one of their children these gals walk the walk that I do with a child that does not fit the mold of sustaining the most rigorous view of what a classical education means. With any post one should take what helps and spit out the bones. This one is not excluded from that advice :D But there needs to be room from all of us.

[Janie]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts because those have been my thoughts for several years, and particularly recently. Even though I should probably graduate and move on from these boards since my children have graduated, I still pop back in now. I don't have time to peruse the boards as before, but I will usually only come to ask a question concerning curriculum pertaining to my current employment that is foggy in my memory.

I think that for the most part, the board member profile has changed from a focused intent on classical education. I'm not sure what it has changed to, but it seems to have changed direction. I've noticed the change over the past few years as more people found the boards, but a definite change when the boards changed for some odd reason.

Reminiscing........

[Plaid Dad]

I am one of those people with very high standards and a more narrow definition of classical education than most here. Yes, we plan to read Latin and Greek authors in high school. I'm actually in the process of helping start a classical high school here in New England, and our curriculum will look more like the one Myrtle posted (minus the bookkeeping! ;)) than like most public or private schools. We will require four years of Latin, Greek and math, and we are getting two reactions: "Who are you lunatics?" and "Where do I sign up?" :D

But I also believe that homeschoolers, in particular, need flexibility and common sense (http://www.latincentered.com/node/98). I read maybe 10% of the posts on this board because I recognize that most of what's being discussed doesn't apply to me or my child. But I'm very, very grateful that SWB and PHP have provided a big tent for classical homeschoolers to come together for discussion and support. I have my own spots on the Internet for discussing my preferred style of classical education in a more focused way, but I really appreciate what these boards offer, too.

[kathleen]

When did you start Latin? What texts did you use? In retrospect, when would have been a good time to have started Greek?

Since his older brother was studying Latin in high school, I had my younger one doing Latina Christiana and Henle when he was still in grade school. In 7th grade he began Wheelock's, finishing it partway through 9th grade, after which he studied Caesar (and others) during the second semester. In retrospect, I wish he would have started Greek in 9th grade, after had more or less mastered Latin grammar.

[Kanga]

This will be quick - I had a long post but I was logged off. So I am just going to kick you and will write more later;) Whenever I feel that I (or one of my dc) need a kick in the pants I read (or assign) The story of My Life by Helen Keller.

[Kelli in TN]

There is variation, no doubt. I still consider WTM The Book I turn to for answers and inspiration. I have tried nearly everything SWB suggested and some of it has fallen by the wayside simply because I am lacking. In the same thread that the long, encouraging post by SWB is lifted from, I made the comment that WTM had ruined me. Now what I want in an education is so high but I am not intelligent/educated/well read enough to pull it off. So there is a continual tug of war inside me where educating my children is concerned. I consider this constant struggle and stress a very, very good thing. Before WTM it was so easy to always take the path of least resistance.

I have not adhered to WTM as closely as I would have liked. But reading that book every year and listening in on the conversations on this forum have made me a better teacher and have made me try harder. Maybe by the time I get through with my last child I will finally have the complete classical homeschool!! For now, I do all I can and the next year I try to do a bit more than the year before. I am so far from where I want to be.

I am comfortable with folks fine-tuning the methodology. What makes me uneasy are the people who openly state that they don't care for the method or the author, and I have to wonder why they choose this forum to visit?:confused:

[Laura K (NC)]

I take this and Jan's post to heart, and I was hoping my intent was clearer than it was. I did not advocate rigid conformance to TWTM. I don't follow every jot and tittle of it myself. My post was lamenting that the general spirit of classical ed., in its various expressions, seems to be waning.

The point about every child having different needs is not lost on me. I have a child with special needs also. That doesn't mean he gets to read fluff, though, when his brothers read Great Books. It means that we might do a few less, rely a little bit more on study guides, and maybe do the occasional abridged book. I know, because I've pushed him, that he can do Latin. My friend's daughter, who wasn't expected to be able to get much past a 3rd grade education, is doing Saxon advanced math. She's only going to get through part of the book in her senior year, but her mom didn't make excuses or settle for less, but sees the value of discipline in her daughter's sense of self-worth. My artsy son can do math well if he knows it's non-negotiable and I enforce that it's non-negotiable. What I'm hearing on the boards more often is not so much that someone's child can not, but that he dislikes some particular subject and wishes not to do it, so the parent is opting for some easier option. There is a huge difference here.

It is the spirit of rigor, and not the particulars of rigor, that I miss.

[Kelli in TN]

It is the spirit of rigor, and not the particulars of rigor, that I miss.

I understand, and since Myrtle was unable to sling rep at you, I did it for her!:)

But I do get what you are saying.

At our house anyone younger than high school has NO say in what they study. My highschooler has the freedom to ask me to change things, but whatever she is asking to do as a replacement better be as good or better than what she wants to do away with!

[Tokyomarie]

I am comfortable with folks fine-tuning the methodology. What makes me uneasy are the people who openly state that they don't care for the method or the author, and I have to wonder why they choose this forum to visit?:confused:

I don't peruse all the posts so I don't necessarily see so many of these kinds of posts. Yes, if someone is not at all interested in classical education in any of its forms, then I think other homeschooling forums would be a better choice for them. Though some will implement more ideas than others from TWTM and other classical and neo-classical writers, all who post here would do well to at least be interested in the conversation about implementing a curriculum centered around the Great Ideas of human history.

[Myrtle]

What I'm hearing on the boards more often is not so much that someone's child can not, but that he dislikes some particular subject and wishes not to do it, so the parent is opting for some easier option. There is a huge difference here.

It is the spirit of rigor, and not the particulars of rigor, that I miss.

I think that reflects the general trend of the philosophy of education in the public schools, in that context one hears more about getting the children to "like" a subject rather than actual achievement. At the risk of overgeneralization the ed school message is that the only way that children can learn is if they are "engaged."

In the extreme this is catering to instant gratification. If the kid doesn't find it interesting or relevant (oh, and that's a whole ball of wax for those us interested in a dead language, is it not?) they steer clear of it. And I don't suppose I entirely fault someone for avoiding programs which require a lot of ungratifying work since many students really have been exposed to relentless, mindless, and purposeless busy work and why should it be any different this time?

I think there must be some small subset of parents that really did shlog through a year or two of work, perhaps as undergraduates or perhaps in graduate school, that had no immediate reward but did finally enjoy the fruits of their labor at the end and it's just easier for us to trust this kind of an approach.

One of the more helpful suggestions in Well-Trained Mind is to keep a portfolio or record of work accomplished in a binder and then the child can reflect back and see how far he has come. This has been useful for me when it comes to encourage my son to keep on and not get discouraged.

If the kid goes on to college, no one will care about how much they "like" Spanish and much fun they think it is to talk to the carpet installer-- their test paper is just another one of hundreds and they'll be counted off for incorrect mood on their verbs along with the kids that don't particular like Spanish but do it because it's required.


I never liked my major, I just realized that I was better at it than almost anyone else and got a degree in it. The one class that I really hated and found difficult turned out to have a surpise ending when I was finished with it and worth it when I was done.

I smile everytime I think of GH Hardy saying that as a boy he never liked math but he was just competitive and did better than the other boys.

Because of my experience I'm not terrified of giving my kids work that they don't particularly like.

[Karin]

When I first started visiting TWTM forums however many years ago I was at once impressed by the dedication of moms to the classical homeschooling method and academic rigor. When I felt a little puny, I could come to the boards and find new strength to provide my kids with my best effort.


I'm trying my best, and I do think the classical method is superior. I sometimes find myself wishing there was a support forum for classical homeschoolers who follow The Well-Trained Mind, at least in part. I don't want excellence measured in modern public school terms. I want to be surprised at how much my kids and I can learn together. I need a push to go farther than the minimum.


I'm not offended one bit. I really, really, really wanted to do WTM to the letter. I do know what you mean. But I found, (the hard way of course) that it didn't all work for my kids. I also know that not all kids way back then had the exact same education. Some kids do have real challenges learning certain subjects, and one of the benefits of homeschooling is that these kids don't have to go through any humiliation of being considered "stupid", "lazy" or "slow." Not that I'm an advocate of unwarranted praise, either.

One of the first lessons I was given as a budding piano teacher was that each piano student is different and I had to teach each one differently. This was not from some young pedagogue, but from a woman in her 70s who had not only been a concert pianist and a piano teacher, but had taught piano pedagogy. I was a very serious teacher as far as teaching the kids to play well, but I really had to teach the same things very differently. I even tried different methods. This was one of the best preparations I personally had for homeschooling, although I did start off too rigidly in terms of curriculum and learning methods.

This board has helped me find harder materials in areas where WTM's wasn't challenging enough, easier materials when that was warranted, and overall has given me pushes in many areas. When I was doing Easy Grammar, it helped me remember that I didn't want to stay there forever and get back on track. However, I don't regret that decision at all for those grades. It has also helped me realize that it's okay to be human, imperfect and not some super-homeschooling mom who can get it all done with a set of kids who each march to the beat of a different drummer than that of the ps world. I strive to get better, but no longer beat myself up if we just can't do it all but the best we can.

Sometimes I'm the poster advocating meatier methods, sometimes the one saying it's okay to use something easier for a while. But WTM is our spine and, like everything else in life, I use what works rather than force things that aren't working at that time. I don't think all of my kids will study all those books in high school. But the one I am sure won't is doing 2 math programs, will be doing a lot of meaty science, logic, etc. She can read those classics later if she chooses to. To me, education is a life time process that can't possibly all be coverered by 18 or the end of college, so I don't worry about doing it all.

[Janice in NJ]

Drat Kathleen,
I was on the fence... so we should keep Greek, eh?
Darn. Darn. Darn. I was hoping for one less thing.... but I suspect that they'll thank me in the end.
Right?
Thanks for the kick in the pants!
Janice

[Karin]

I think that reflects the general trend of the philosophy of education in the public schools, in that context one hears more about getting the children to "like" a subject rather than actual achievement. At the risk of overgeneralization the ed school message is that the only way that children can learn is if they are "engaged."


Because of my experience I'm not terrified of giving my kids work that they don't particularly like.

I agree. Even though we've modified, I don't modify just because my child doesn't like something. IRL we all have to do things we don't like. It's part of character building. But I also don't want them to hate everything, either. While I don't let them choose their curricula, I gave them a lot of freedom in art when they were younger (just let them have at it), and I do modify for learning styles. I also choose my battles with one of mine for whom almost every subject is a battle; I can't be so stressed out that I am snapping at my other children and my dh over this one dc!

[Janice in NJ]

Ah yes. I've read these kinds of lists before. But you know what I don't get?

Where is Spanish I, II, III?
American History?
American Government?
Economics?
Biology? Chemistry? Physics? AP Science?????
Algebra II, Precalculus, AP Calculus, Statistics? DID these guys have to spend time learning how to PROGRAM their graphing calculators??????
Where are the twelve great books read with a 3 page paper for each?
A research paper with 10 sources?
Short Stories?
College Application Essays
SAT Prep?
Gym.
Fine Arts? Are these folks taking art appreciation at ALLL!!!!!!!!
Are they devoting umpteen hours to community service?

These college applicants do NOT look well rounded to me!!!!!!:D:D:D:rolleyes:

Yes. I've seen these kinds of lists before. It looks like a focused education. But are these folks reading the newspaper and doing internet research and...................
Building jack-of-all-trades takes up SOOOOOOO much time!!!!!

Peace,
Janice

P.S. 7th grader dd is taking Latin I and working through Elementary Greek III - she'll probably start High School Greek I in 9th grade. She is also taking French II and her voice teacher wants her to add in Italian.

I guess sleeping isn't necessary any more. :-)

Enjoy your little people
Enjoy your journey

[RebeccaC]

The point about every child having different needs is not lost on me. I have a child with special needs also. That doesn't mean he gets to read fluff, though, when his brothers read Great Books. It means that we might do a few less, rely a little bit more on study guides, and maybe do the occasional abridged book. I know, because I've pushed him, that he can do Latin. My friend's daughter, who wasn't expected to be able to get much past a 3rd grade education, is doing Saxon advanced math. She's only going to get through part of the book in her senior year, but her mom didn't make excuses or settle for less, but sees the value of discipline in her daughter's sense of self-worth. My artsy son can do math well if he knows it's non-negotiable and I enforce that it's non-negotiable. What I'm hearing on the boards more often is not so much that someone's child can not, but that he dislikes some particular subject and wishes not to do it, so the parent is opting for some easier option. There is a huge difference here.

It is the spirit of rigor, and not the particulars of rigor, that I miss.

When I started hsing in 95 I had a mute, brain deaf, visually impaired 4 year old. I was told he would never speak, read, do any math (wich is a language on its own,) or much of anything. However at 15 he just finished unabridged Treasure Island and has started 80 Days Around the World unabridged. I have lived the Anne Sullivan thing. When he was 5 I knew every word that he knew because in the year between 4 and 5 I taught him those words. We were lucky in that medical treatment healed our son but we are still catching up.

That written Latin was not going to happen here, English is his second language, vision is his first. Lial's which we tried will not happen here either but the much Pooh poohed TT will tho. Thing is this same kids has a non verbal IQ of around 150 but his writing is still delayed, math is a struggle, and grammar welllll....... He on his own pick up SOTW 3 which I had shelved years ago and is now tearing through it. We don't fit on the sn board and we don't fit on the gifted board we are in some sort of limbo :rolleyes: If I wrote what we do here it might to some look like the path of least resistance if they did not know our back story and for that reason for years I have lurked on these boards.

So I agree that some folks are just taking the path of least resistance but not every one is. I don't even bother to read the posts that read what is the most rigorous math or.... program because they are pointless for us. I do look for the moms who are trying to provide excellence with kids who have true LD issues and I read what they do and borrow from time to time from the posts they write.

The problem with posting about rigor is the manner in which it is posted. It can make some feel as if it is unobtainable. My son will never be a scholar but there are producers in Hollywood that think he has a future there and want his ideas. Ideas that are built from classic poems and books which were read aloud by me for years. There are ways to be rigorous that may to some look as if they were the path of least resistance. I am not sure how to rectify the dilemma that you raise but I would hate to see rigor raised to such a hight that it can seem unobtainable and pointless to some.

Blessings,
Rebecca

[Jane in NC]

Given that I am the only semi-classical homeschooler in my neck of the woods, I have relied on these boards for quite a while as my support network. To me there is often a sort of "junior high" feeling on the general board, although that doesn't prevent me from posting over there when I need a recipe idea, etc. I only read a few posts on the general, while I read many posts here on the high school board.

Fairly often someone posts a question concerning literature lists or how one studies history. There are several of us who are always quick to chime in "consult TWTM". It would seem that if one is participating on a WTM board that one would at least be starting from that guidebook. If more of us were, I could see some side discussion groups forming for teens and parents who are reading the same books. Tht would be just terrific for someone like me with an only child and no other homeschoolers nearby following this methodology. (Another regular poster and I have exchanged a couple of private messages on our reading of The Canterbury Tales. I wouldn't be surprised if others are similarly engaged in off forum discussions.)

There has never been an attempt at learning Greek in this household, although I could see my husband pursuing that path some day. On my list of "things that I wished I had learned" was French so it was only natural that we would gravitate to French in our homeschool, but Latin was in the program first and remains there. Is it hard to do two languages? You bet, especially when I have to struggle to keep up in one and cannot remember the grammar that I once learned in the other.

What is perhaps daunting about classical education or semi-classical is the amount of work that it does require on the parent/teacher's part. One can utilize online courses, the university, tutors, etc., but it still takes time to coordinate, find textbooks, and stay on top of a student's work. Is that why some have shied away from TWTM?

Jane

[Lori D.]

I'm wondering if the tone of the WTM boards have changed, NOT because there are fewer rigorous classical educators, but rather, there are many more people overall using these boards now compared to several years ago, and that they are not the more strictly or rigorously classical educators who originally read TWTM and came here to discuss it.

There are SO MANY more curricula, schooling resources, and books about homeschooling now (and coming from so many different/competing educational models) compared to even 10 years ago, that I'm thinking the mindset of those starting off in homeschooling now is more of the smorgasboard approach.

I really admire and appreciate those on this board who do have that classical education vision and are able to follow through on it rigorously. You inspire me! And I'm also inspired by those who homeschool fully following other visions as well. I'm just glad that the WTM boards are flexible enough to encompass the variety! : )

Thanks to all of you who participate here -- I always leave inspired, encouraged, challenged, and wiser for having visited here. : ) Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Jan P.]

I hope folks haven't taken to heart that I'm opposed to TWTM. If you saw my copy of it, then you would definitely be wrong. I am constantly going back, rereading it, trying to figure out how to better my teaching with my children by using the methods presented. I'm so attached to my old copy that I don't want to buy a revised one!! I did go to the library to see the newer book, and I took copious notes from the sections that weren't included in my old book. I have the deepest respect for SWB, and on numerous occasions in the past she has answered my e-mails and helped me on my homeschool journey with my children.

Blessings,

[Holly S/NC]

I started here 8 years ago. I still try hard to maintain WTM standards, with modifications for kids, as needed. I don't check in as often as I did years ago, when I got such great feedback on how to implement WTM. Part of it is that I now have a lot of experience, but part of it is a switch in people visiting.

I do still get great ideas here, but the feel is definitely different.

Holly S/NC

[Laura K (NC)]

If my sons achieve half of what your child has, I will think that I have been very, very successful as a homeschooling parent.

Again, I must reiterate the difference I see in stories of what a child can do, and what a child simply would rather not do.

Peace,
Laura

[Lori D.]

Ditto! I admire you, Rebecca! Saying it here, and I also added that to your reputation! : )

[Tokyomarie]

When I started hsing in 95 I had a mute, brain deaf, visually impaired 4 year old. I was told he would never speak, read, do any math (wich is a language on its own,) or much of anything. However at 15 he just finished unabridged Treasure Island and has started 80 Days Around the World unabridged. I have lived the Anne Sullivan thing. When he was 5 I knew every word that he knew because in the year between 4 and 5 I taught him those words. We were lucky in that medical treatment healed our son but we are still catching up.




Bravo, Rebecca! You have persevered with your son. I'm sure there were many years where all your hard work felt like a hard slog through the swamp. But your son has a much brighter future because of your influence. Good going, mom!

[Nan in Mass]

I noticed the board switching to less of a real books/spine focus (a la TWTM), more of conservative Christian focus, more of a textbook-type curriculum for history and literature. This happened several years ago. I think, as others have said, that homeschooling became more popular, especially amongst conservative Christians, and highly motivated hard workers that they are, they wrote lots of curriculums to make things easier for people, especially ones with more or younger children and a heavy load of charity work and to approach things from their own particular beliefs. I, too, am taken aback when people post on *TWTM* board asking for advice on the best way to do literature, but I think this board has just morphed into something more versatile to suit the larger population of homeschoolers. And I suppose that is good. When I began homeschooling, what I prayed for was creativity, the creativity to take full advantage of the freedom that homeschooling gave us. TWTM served as a guide to how to do an education creatively and a safeguard against missing something critical and failing. As you can see, my goals aren't classical at all. (Or, I guess you can say that I've been lazy enough not to even explore the issue, TWTM having done it for me. I'm also somewhat allergic to the label "classical" because my mother had a "classical" education and is still complaining that it was dry as dust.) Was it Gwen who told the story of not doing a classical education and having children in college who considered themselves classically educated? I've found the same thing, even before mine have gotten to college. I hope I am providing lots of laughs for our dear SWB. And I have my own funny story: When I was growing up, UU and Roman Catholic were about as far apart as you could get and still be Christian, but here, I find I feel much closer to the Catholics than to anyone else LOL. Funny how these things work out. But that is beside the point... I think everyone does a splendid job of being polite and supportive and non-judgemental, and it is no wonder lots of homeschoolers, TWTM oriented or not, want to be here on this board. With the greater number of posts, I've just learned to be selective about which ones I read. I inhabit the high school board because I have children doing high school work, and the accelerated board, not because mine are accelerated, but because some of the odd traits of the gifted children there, like chewing holes in their shirts and extreme upset over historical events and depressing literature, match my just-brightish children. On the high school board, I know which people have similar goals and higher standards, and I read those posts and the posts from people who sound like they could use my help.

One of the nice things about cyber space is that there is room for everybody. :)

-Nan

[Tammyla]

When I started hsing in 95 I had a mute, brain deaf, visually impaired 4 year old. I was told he would never speak, read, do any math (wich is a language on its own,) or much of anything. However at 15 he just finished unabridged Treasure Island and has started 80 Days Around the World unabridged. I have lived the Anne Sullivan thing. When he was 5 I knew every word that he knew because in the year between 4 and 5 I taught him those words. We were lucky in that medical treatment healed our son but we are still catching up.

That written Latin was not going to happen here, English is his second language, vision is his first. Lial's which we tried will not happen here either but the much Pooh poohed TT will tho. Thing is this same kids has a non verbal IQ of around 150 but his writing is still delayed, math is a struggle, and grammar welllll....... He on his own pick up SOTW 3 which I had shelved years ago and is now tearing through it. We don't fit on the sn board and we don't fit on the gifted board we are in some sort of limbo :rolleyes: If I wrote what we do here it might to some look like the path of least resistance if they did not know our back story and for that reason for years I have lurked on these boards.

So I agree that some folks are just taking the path of least resistance but not every one is. I don't even bother to read the posts that read what is the most rigorous math or.... program because they are pointless for us. I do look for the moms who are trying to provide excellence with kids who have true LD issues and I read what they do and borrow from time to time from the posts they write.

The problem with posting about rigor is the manner in which it is posted. It can make some feel as if it is unobtainable. My son will never be a scholar but there are producers in Hollywood that think he has a future there and want his ideas. Ideas that are built from classic poems and books which were read aloud by me for years. There are ways to be rigorous that may to some look as if they were the path of least resistance. I am not sure how to rectify the dilemma that you raise but I would hate to see rigor raised to such a hight that it can seem unobtainable and pointless to some.

Blessings,
Rebecca


Lovely post. Most posts can never give the full picture and what sounds like very low standards, may be the top of the mountain. ;)

I love TWTM & these boards. Thank you Susan!

[RebeccaC]

I noticed the board switching to less of a real books/spine focus (a la TWTM), more of conservative Christian focus, more of a textbook-type curriculum for history and literature.


When I first started lurking here Susan's book was still warm from the press and there was a lot of discussion on what the TWTM said and using great books in hsing. In fact I remeber when all the boards were one or maybe two. Lori D I think wrote about how the market and resources for hsers has exploded! My sister has been hsing for over 18 years when she started there was almost nothing on the market. When I started there was no TWTM but lots of Konos, Weaver, Sonlight, and Fiar which was still spiral bound and only one volume. I remember that TWTM was such a novelty and that it exploded on all the hs boards. It exploded in such a manner that Sonlight began to remodel itself after classical. At that time I worked/volunteered as a sn moderator for a big hsing board and I remember that the thought was that the TWTM was the biggest competitor to their school of thought.

All that written I have found it odd that textbooks have overtaken what I saw as the heart of TWTM. Even to the point that some posts read as if they are superior to how the TWTM is laid out. I understand the concept of spines and using a textbook as a spine and I understand the convince of a textbook and how colleges look at it but still.......Susan's chapter for the Rhetoric stage in the first edition (too cheap to buy the revised edition sorry Susan) gives a 4 and a 5 step outline for using great books. Textbooks appear nowhere in the 4 steps she provided now maybe she wrote something different in the revised edition I don't know being cheap ;)

I like the choices we have now but I sometimes wonder if we have too many choices :confused: I really want her new book on the middle ages for my oldest :D But maybe the problem is not rigor but that the boards due to choice have moved away from the heart of TWTM and so have become something different. I don't know just guessing.

Blessings,
Rebecca

[Colleen in NS]

When I first started visiting TWTM forums however many years ago I was at once impressed by the dedication of moms to the classical homeschooling method and academic rigor. When I felt a little puny, I could come to the boards and find new strength to provide my kids with my best effort.

Now I come to the boards and the rigorous homeschoolers are either quieter or seem to be a minority. If a kid doesn't like math, then many simply suggest we switch to an easier program. If a kid doesn't like reading, pop books are okay... the classics are not for everybody, and don't bother reading them yourself because it's just not necessary. History phobia? Pick a prepackaged curriculum that doesn't demand much. We are granted permission not to teach basic science requirements if we know(?) our children won't "need" them, granted permission to do bare minimum on extracurriculars and count them as full credits, and granted permission to take the day or week or even month off if we're having a bad time of it. After all, we've heard that public schoolers aren't covering all that much, so why try harder?

I don't want excellence measured in modern public school terms. I want to be surprised at how much my kids and I can learn together. I need a push to go farther than the minimum.

These are some of my thoughts at times, too. But then I go looking for the posts where people are talking about the type of education I want to give my kids, to get inspired again. I've also taken note of particular posters whose posts I like to read. I hope these posters, some of whom have kids who are done homeschooling, will continue to post here and inspire us on.

I haven't researched into all the various definitions and labels surrounding the term "classical education." I just know that the *learning patterns* I found in TWTM, combined with the recommended resources, are giving us the tools to learn. More tools than I ever learned in my school years, and yet some of them are so basic, and they DON'T take much time to learn if they are learned consistently (narration? I never did it when I was a kid, yet how simple and how much more interesting, freeing, and effective than filling in the blanks for reading comprehension and organizing your thoughts!!) I've read enough experiences on these boards over the years to know that these patterns really do work, with all the tweaking and individualizing.

If I post a question looking for help, I am usually just looking for affirmation and other people's experiences about a direction I *think* I want to move in. So, I don't post replies to someone else unless I think the poster seems to WANT a nudge in the same direction that I've gone in. If I think they are looking for a different nudge that I would not do, I move on because nothing I say is going to change their mind.

I think it's great that there are so many posters on here now, and there are a lot of "fresh faces" who are adding new excitement again for the methods in WTM. I just posted a reply to one the other day, hoping to encourage her along with her excitement. I wonder sometimes if there are newer WTM fans who are NOT posting, for fear of being discouraged out of their excitement.....that's why I like those threads where someone asks "who here actually uses many of the methods and resources in WTM?" and you see all kinds of affirmative answers.

Interesting discussion.

[Rhondabee]

What I mean is this: I have been looking at program after program after program for high school because the fact is other than the bible, some stories from the Odyssey in high school (in a lit book), maybe a touch of Oedipus (same lit book), and our logic study of literature (abridged Gilgamesh, Iliad, Odyssey, Aeneid), I have NO CLUE about any of the other "classics" on the Ninth Grade list.

So, it seems really ludicrous for me to just blindly go about picking which books will supposedly make up a well-rounded classical ancient lit course. Do you think the ones who "pioneered" with the first version of WTM actually had some knowledge of these books?

I always imagine that people *really* doing WTM must either be genius-y smart, have kids who are genius-y smart, or who somehow just received a much, much better education than I did. It's hard to imagine a normal mom with average kids pulling this off.

BUT, as I was about to post earlier, I caught myself thinking, "I just don't have TIME to read all those books." But, yeah, I do. Really. (Well, at least I'd rather *read* than *clean*!!!) So, I've ordered the Gilgamesh, Iliad and Oedipus from amazon.

Thank you for the kick I needed to *do* something about solving my ignorance problem rather than just looking for some miracle-curriculum to do that for me.

:)

[Beth in SW WA]

It's hard to imagine a normal mom with average kids pulling this off. :)

This normal mom w/ normal kids is going to tap into online classes for the Great Books study/discussion. Ds 12 is taking Veritas Omnibus 1 online next year. The only way I will successfully provide my kiddos a classical education -- or neo-classical -- will be via the internet and/or local tutors.

These great books are meant to be discussed w/ experts, IMHO.

As for Latin, local tutors and online courses.

No one said classical ed is cheap!

[Maria/ME]

Wow. Laura. I think I understand your point, and your wish for some more academic rigor, but I think WTM has grown (esp with the new boards) to encompass a larger variety of ways to teach and learn. And I don't think any of us, old or new, have the monopoly on academic rigor. "Academic Rigor" is different for everyone, as has been pointed out so eloquently in previous posts.

Speaking for myself, WTM has always been the heart of what I wanted to teach and provided a beautiful basis for my beginning path of homeschooling. But my beliefs in teaching and learning have veered away from a "strict" WTM method. I will not be hemmed in by the label of "classical" or any other method that doesn't fully work for us, or that I don't fully believe in. Does that mean I don't need the boards because parts of it don't work for me? Not at all. As previously mentioned, we all come to this homeschooling journey for different reasons, and that effects our curriculum, and our goals.

You mention "If a kid doesn't like math, simply switch to an easier program." I would suggest, not "easier", but different. "History phobia? Pick a prepackaged curriculum that doesn't demand much." While I can not keep up with every post by a long shot, I don't think I have ever seen this advocated. However, I believe in a more "child-led" education. If a child sincerely hates a particular subject, I believe in the flexibility of change. Not "dropping" a subject, but I shall not, and will not, mimic a school room situation of dreading and hating subjects and classes for the WTM "ideal" whatever that may mean to a person individually. That would be MY invested ideal, not my childs education that I have at heart.

TWTM taught me that I could homeschool. What I love about the WTM boards are the ideas I get, the input from the variety of homeschoolers, and the resources. What I don't always love is that many WTM'ers come from a "school at home" stand point that I don't always agree with. So I overlook those areas as not working for me and take what does. Might I suggest, that while you are in mourning for the old rigor as you see it, just not reading the posts. Variety is the spice of life. It invigorates, it challenges. And we have a variety of people here, who, I believe, all view WTM with great respect and use it as a basis for their teaching, to whatever degree that basis is.

I guess, I hate labels. I resent being labeled as "rigorous" or "not rigorous" or a "classical homeschooler" or an "unschooler" when I am none of these things. I am imperfect, journeying, growing and learning with my child. And if that is not rigorous then what is?

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

Do you think the ones who "pioneered" with the first version of WTM actually had some knowledge of these books?
:)

Actually, I think this is a really good point. I remember the early board. I was also on the WTMHS Yahoo board back then. I think the earliest adopters were starving for something like TWTM for High School and they drank from it like water in the desert. Now many if not most of us see TWTM as one option from a smorgasboard of opportunities currently available for this age group. I think it's just a byproduct of the inevitable maturing of the community.

Barb

[Laura K (NC)]

(and I won't give his/her name),

saying he/she just started homeschooling and is new to the WTM method. The person was pretty confused that some of the posts seem to go against the WTM method, and really wanted this board to be a support for the method.

I hope this person will stick around! This is why I first came here, because TWTM was really my ticket out of the public schools. It gave me a backbone. We who are trying hard to follow TWTM shouldn't feel bad for wanting to do our best to implement it and to encourage the "newbies." This is what I've been coming for.

[Maria/ME]

This is why I first came here, because TWTM was really my ticket out of the public schools. It gave me a backbone. We who are trying hard to follow TWTM shouldn't feel bad for wanting to do our best to implement it and to encourage the "newbies." This is what I've been coming for.

You know, Laura, I couldn't agree more with the first two sentences. I found that to be true in my case also.

I think it's "We who are trying hard to follow TWTM shouldn't feel bad for wanting to do our best to implement it and encourage the "newbies." statement that bothers me.

It seems exclusive for one thing. As if only those who follow TWTM rigorously should be allowed to discuss on this board. And again, as was stated, in previous posts, we are all following according to what works for us. Should we feel bad that you may not include us in the "we" who are trying hard to follow TWTM? If I say, " I follow TWTM to this or that degree" are you going to look down on me as not being rigorous? As not being a TRUE WTM er? Do we need to divide the board into "rigorous types" and "non rigourous types" and post accordingly??

"..wanting to do our best to implement it..." Don't we all want that?

I'm so lost on who is making you feel bad for implementing TWTM?? I stand in awe of the way some of you who interpret TWTM literally and go "by the book" teach. It's wonderful. It's successful. It's just not always my road, but is someone specifically making you feel bad about it? Or are the people who are trying to make it their own bothering you that much?

And the newbies that come here. By all means they should have encouragement like you and I did. Let them ask questions, let them find answers...just like we all did. It may be harder to "slog" through all the posts now, in the new forum, but they will find support here to find what works for them. When I was a 'newbie' three years ago I gathered what I needed from the boards. I would've never homeschooled without them. Which is why I am still here. The backbone, the encouragement. As my ideas changed and I figured out my daughters learning style I started "hearing" what others had to say, those that were not, perhaps, as rigorous followers of TWTM and what they said helped too. Is there not room for both?

[Laurel-in-CA]

AND 4 kids at different stages!! I have to say that WTM looked intimidating but do-able when my kids were smaller. They diverged from the scholarly paradigm, though, in significant ways. To afford homeschooling, we became involved in a charter and, for high school particularly, that diverged from the WTM paradigm in significant other ways. I am just working hard here to hold onto our history focus, value literature, and keep all the balls in the air, LOL. WTM is still my inspiration, like a pole star, but the country I'm traveling in is different. And the same is true for each family/each kid. After all, this isn't just "classical education" we're talking about. It's "classical home education" - which means tailored, balanced with the needs of the whole family, shaped by the family's values...the HOME in home education necessarily means variations.

But yes, this board has become less about implementing TWTM and more about educating your children at home.

[ereks mom]

We are a family that holds VERY loosely to TWTM -- I love many of the ideas in it, but I would be hard-pressed to find specific examples of where we have directly followed TWTM. I wouldn't even consider the education that my kids have had particularly "classical."


But I love to hang out here because I get such great ideas, and like all the rest of you, I want to provide the BEST education I can for my dc, and I like to learn *with* them.

[Nan in Mass]

Of course there is room for both. It is just (at least in my case) that sometimes one of them seems a little scarce.

[Maria/ME]

I will say it's been an interesting perspective, because sometimes I feel like I'm the only one here who is 'relaxed' or 'eclectic' in approach. We're all reading the wrong posts!!!:)

[Colleen in NS]

What I mean is this: I have been looking at program after program after program for high school because the fact is other than the bible, some stories from the Odyssey in high school (in a lit book), maybe a touch of Oedipus (same lit book), and our logic study of literature (abridged Gilgamesh, Iliad, Odyssey, Aeneid), I have NO CLUE about any of the other "classics" on the Ninth Grade list.

So, it seems really ludicrous for me to just blindly go about picking which books will supposedly make up a well-rounded classical ancient lit course. Do you think the ones who "pioneered" with the first version of WTM actually had some knowledge of these books?

I always imagine that people *really* doing WTM must either be genius-y smart, have kids who are genius-y smart, or who somehow just received a much, much better education than I did. It's hard to imagine a normal mom with average kids pulling this off.

I've hardly read any of the books on the high school lists, either - for that matter, not many on the grammar and logic lists - but I'm catching up now! And I have TWTM methods and resources to THANK for that. Between TWTM and TWEM, and the people on these boards who DO talk about how they implement ideas in TWTM, I just have a sense that I CAN do this. And every time I panic, I'll run back here for help. No geniuses or university educated people in my house. :) As for knowledge of the books - I am guessing that when it comes time to pick books for high school lit., there'll be plenty of resources from which I can find out what the books are about (well, ideally, I'll read some of them beforehand), and then let my kids choose from the list. TWTM talks about that, too.

Rhonda, I think you're smart. I'd never have thought of that question. :)

[Laura K (NC)]

nt

[Colleen in NS]

(and I won't give his/her name),

saying he/she just started homeschooling and is new to the WTM method. The person was pretty confused that some of the posts seem to go against the WTM method, and really wanted this board to be a support for the method.

I hope this person will stick around! This is why I first came here, because TWTM was really my ticket out of the public schools. It gave me a backbone. We who are trying hard to follow TWTM shouldn't feel bad for wanting to do our best to implement it and to encourage the "newbies." This is what I've been coming for.

This is exactly why I like to post to someone is newer than me and seems to want to use WTM methods but is having trouble with something (like, "am I including everything I need to do grammar-stage LA like in WTM?" I mean, if the person WANTS to do it WTM style, why not tell them directly, "yes, you've got it" or "no, you should add a spelling program" or whatever is missing)

There is SO MUCH freedom on these boards to express all sorts of opinions about all sorts of things. But when I start getting confused or feeling undermined in my efforts (which mostly comes from reading the huge variety of posts - something I don't need to do :)), I just remind myself that it's a forum BASED on the book!! If we go back and read the actual descriptions for the curriculum, general, high school, and afterschooling boards, we'd see that the overall intent really IS for discussing how to implement a classical style education in our homes!

I understand that there is a smorgasbord out there now for homeschoolers and many ways to do various subjects. But to me, the underlying principles of WTM is that you have to teach skills in order for the child to be able to learn. As long as the program is helpful to the parent in teaching the skills needed, then it doesn't matter if you use a program recommended in WTM or not. I just choose to use the recs, JUST because I don't want to get into researching all the zillions of programs out there. I need to focus myself. :)

I do hope that person sticks around, too. And I hope other "newbies" who want to gain practical help here with implementing WTM methods will start/keep posting.

[chelsea in TN]

I too get caught up in the "What curriculum is best" thought. I forgot that the reason I liked WTM is the "real books" focous.

I will be taking my WTM off the shelf again tonight and reaquaint myself with what I REALLY wasnt to accomplist with my kids.......

I must admist I was first turned off by this thread. There are so many different ways to accomplish an education for your child.... after readin gall the posts though it may me realize I need to re- examine my goals and not listen so much to the people I hang with. What works for them may or may not work for me and my family.....

[frogpond1]

popular when the children were young and then there would be a great dropping off of people who were unable to throw themselves fully into the studying required to give the higher levels of Classical Education. I'd love to see a poll of who is still doing what they dreamed off 5+ years ago. As our children grow older, us older WTM'ers get pretty busy, and we don't want to feel like we are beating people over the head for what they are choosing to do. I was always the wacko one around all the other homeschoolers I visited with in my area, but proof is in the pudding. I am on the slow and steady, not perfect path and seeing fabulous results. I'd encourage everyone here to do Latin to its fullest, to jump into the Progymn and learn it themselves, to toss out the twaddle and read only the best books, and push hard on math and not give up. I'm glad the days of debating who is really classical and who is only neoclassical have died down. I don't want to even call myself classical after those, just because I'm not educating little Classicists, but working on bringing up children who can serve in any area the Lord calls them. Right now I'm in the force who is in the trenches working hard and not giving up. With middle schoolers etc., we don't have time to enter the curriculum debates as much. We are preparing to figure out all the high school credits and how to teach what we've never learned ourselves. It is 12:18 and I'm working on a phonetic translation of Carmen in French so my daughter can prepare for her parts. I don't even know French, what am I doing? I'm just doing everything possible to give my children the fullest, deepest, richest education possible. I encourage all new WTM moms to not take the easy road, but read and search and research and really know what they are teaching and why.

[dragons in the flower bed]

Wait, what's the answer? Is a rigorous homeschooler making their subjects smaller and purer, or bigger and broader?

I guess I've noticed that my kids get more education when we do less, so your dichotomy of dropping subjects and getting rigorous doesn't make sense to me.

[Michelle in MO]

Now I come to the boards and the rigorous homeschoolers are either quieter or seem to be a minority. If a kid doesn't like math, then many simply suggest we switch to an easier program. If a kid doesn't like reading, pop books are okay... the classics are not for everybody, and don't bother reading them yourself because it's just not necessary. History phobia? Pick a prepackaged curriculum that doesn't demand much. We are granted permission not to teach basic science requirements if we know(?) our children won't "need" them, granted permission to do bare minimum on extracurriculars and count them as full credits, and granted permission to take the day or week or even month off if we're having a bad time of it. After all, we've heard that public schoolers aren't covering all that much, so why try harder?

It is my experience that we don't really need much encouragement to do less than is required for a well-educated, (and even more, a well-trained) student. What I really need is a kick in the pants to get off the computer and sit down with my sons and teach them -- and myself -- to know, or at least appreciate, as much about history, and math, and science, and literature (and logic, and rhetoric, and the arts) as possible, and not to scrape by on minimum requirements for any test or college requirement, and to overcome any phobia I or my kids have of any subject by treating the fear as a simple misunderstanding that can be overcome.

**************************

I'm trying my best, and I do think the classical method is superior. I sometimes find myself wishing there was a support forum for classical homeschoolers who follow The Well-Trained Mind, at least in part. I don't want excellence measured in modern public school terms. I want to be surprised at how much my kids and I can learn together. I need a push to go farther than the minimum.



and no, I'm not offended by what you've said and the topic you've brought up.

For our family, I would say that I have adapted methods from TWTM as much as possible. We did do 5 years of Latin; two years with Matin Latin I & II, and three years covering Henle I (mostly due to following Memoria Press's guide for the first year; while excellent, a bit too slow for our purposes). Beyond that, I simply couldn't force my older two to tackle any more Latin without strife in our household. My youngest is working her way through LC II; my oldest daughter has done Introductory Logic and Traditional Logic I and II; my middle daughter has done TL I and is working on TL II. We do what I would consider a rigorous math---Chalkdust for the oldest, Lial's for the middle daughter, and my youngest is naturally quite adept at math. We do Apologia Science; the tests are not adapted at all, and my oldest works through every chemistry problem in the book. We are doing most of the Primary Readings from Omnibus II, to a much greater degree than last year, and the kids are more engaged. I believe we are working our girls to as high of a standard as possible.

However, this summer I had a "turning point" of sorts in my approach with my children. I listened to Douglas Wilson's talk from the 2007 ACCS Conference last summer in Atlanta, entitled, "Lowering Standards While Submitting to Christ's Authority." The main thrust of the message was in maintaining high standards in education while not losing the children you're trying to teach. He used an analogy that, ultimately, we all want to give our children a million dollars (i.e., an excellent classical education), but if they end up hating it and us for it, we've given them nothing. You'd have to listen to the entire talk to catch all his points, and there's a false dichotomy which he outlines in the talk. Another main point he made was in communicating the enthusiasm of subjects and defending their importance with our children.

I guess what I learned from that message, which I listened to repeatedly, sometimes with tears, is that I really do want to do so much more with them, but I can't lead or push my "sheep" beyond what they're capable of retaining at the moment. My girls do rigorous work; their test scores show that. But, I have to keep my eyes always on them and what they're capable of doing, and lead them with love (not to imply that others who do more are not doing that! Of course not!). So---it became apparent to me that I could not get them to move further on in Latin beyond Henle I without losing their hearts. They were mentally and emotionally finished with the subject. So, I felt like it was time to move on and allow them to do a modern foreign language, which we'll tackle next year, having just finished Henle I this year.

I truly, truly admire so many of you that do even more with your children, and I can sense the enthusiasm and drive that your children possess while they are doing their work. Some of your children are doing advanced Latin that I could only dream about; some of your children are doing multiple online courses in extremely difficult subjects. I wish I could meet all of you, sit in on your homeschool for a day or a week and watch you, like a little mouse in the corner, as you interact with your children, so I could catch your secret! But, I had to back off from a few things, namely pursuing higher levels of Latin with my children, because it seemed like they were losing their love and interest in what they were learning. I want to do so much more, but I don't want to lose their hearts in the process. And, I don't mean to imply in any way that those of you who are doing so much more as losing your children's hearts---in fact, just the opposite: so many of you are able to do so much more and your children are absolutely thriving and loving what they're doing! But for our family, I felt that it was necessary to back off a little from what I ultimately wanted to do.

I hope my post doesn't come across as a criticism of anyone! This is just our perspective, and how we've adapted TWTM to our family.

[8FillTheHeart]

I think this is an excellent discussion, Laura. For our family, personally, we aren't strict followers of the classical method. However, we are very strict followers of pushing our children academically to their maximum potential. The focus is not necessarily on the liberal arts, but may be highly intensive in math and science (which isn't quite so "classical.")

From our experience and POV, educational success is what leads to the capabilities to achieve future academic goals. Our oldest son is majoring in chemical engineering. We could have focused more on the liberal arts (Latin, Greek, ancients) when he was in high school, but opted for him to be able to dual enroll and take the science/math route. I'm not sure that was the wrong decision for him. It was definitely hard work and developed excellent work ethic, exposed him to what he needed to do in order to achieve his dream.

I am also a focuser on the smaller and purer. We can't study everything. We go narrower and deeper. However, in today's technological world, we have made educational room for a slightly different picture (like Janice's list in her post)

I've enjoyed the discussion. With our 3rd child approaching high school next yr, I am still trying to evaluate our route with her. She has no clear cut dreams or focus, so a more traditionally classical approach may be the one we take. Either way, pushing her to her maximum potential is our ultimate goal no matter which subjects we end up selecting to study.

[Nan in Mass]

This is what I learned from TWTM, too. That is my safeguard against failure. It is the reason TWTM feels like a more workable, more sure version of unschooling to me. It is what allows me to morph "school" into "education" and flex things to the max. No matter how much I've flexed them, I try really hard to make sure we cover that list of skills, and usually, I find that SWB's recommendations are the most efficient way of doing that, provided I make allowences for my older child's slower brain wiring and both children's capacity to become deeply depressed by depressing literature and historical events. This is probably because SWB's recommendations are a good cultural match for my own family.
-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

I'm very odd, too. I feel supported, though, in my oddness, by some of my particular friends here. I know they are doing things differently than I am and have different goals, but some of the people here are fantastic at offering me kind advice on how to do what *I* want to do, warning me about rocks they think I might be headed for, and helping me to feel that what I am doing, weird as it may seem, is a good path for my particular children. This only works, though, if you tell people what your family is like, and sometimes that feels pretty scary or disrespectful of your children and is hard to do, especially as your children get older.
-Nan

[Jane in NC]

I think this is an excellent discussion, Laura. For our family, personally, we aren't strict followers of the classical method. However, we are very strict followers of pushing our children academically to their maximum potential. The focus is not necessarily on the liberal arts, but may be highly intensive in math and science (which isn't quite so "classical.")


I've enjoyed the discussion.

An interesting thing happened on the journey. I had always viewed my son as a natural biologist with an engineering bent. Between his Montessori education and TWTM, he has developed a passion for history. He is not the best Latin student, but enjoys it. If we had placed more emphasis on math and science, we may not have discovered these interests. This is not to say that we de-emphasized math, science and technology. It is just that we have held high standards in these subjects as well as literature and history. I think that this is part of the point of general liberal arts education.

I have enjoyed this thread tremendously. I will add though that when some of us wave a curricular material enthusiastically, we are not necessarily suggesting that all students need to use that book or use it as we are using it. My bandwagon is not everyone else's but some will benefit from things that we have discovered in the process. If I use Dolciani, it does not mean that I am slighting Foerster, for example. Is this the problem of posting and email where unintended emotion or content can be read within?

With gratitude to comrades met on these boards.
Jane

[Rhondabee]

IOW, I admit I may "seem" smarter than the average bear (just thinking back to school and now as I try to find a group of women I "fit with", which is another post all together :rolleyes:).

But, I'm *not* really exceptionally or gifted-ly smart. I simply care about learning. And I *want* to be smart. I *wanted* to be an A+ student (without cheating I may add). And I was willing to work REALLY hard to be so.

My kids.......oh......not so much. Phlegmatic to the core, baby!!! Any grade is "good enough" as long as they don't have to work too hard to get it - LOL!

I push and I cajole and I pull to get out of my oldest what I get out of him. I wonder how I will find the energy to continue pushing him when he seems to be getting stronger and I seem to be getting weaker every day. I worry about our relationship as mother and son being overshadowed by our relationship of teacher and pupil.

OTOH, I worry that if I *don't* push, then academically I might as well have put him in public school for high school, so why should I continue homeschooling ..... and round and round it goes....:)

So, I have these books ordered as a start. I'm hoping they're more engaging than the Norton Anthology versions I looked at briefly last night! But at least if I read the books, whatever we do will be decided from a place of knowledge and not from fear. I really detest making my decisions based on fear!

Off to tackle our "good books" for the rest of the year!
Rhonda

[Veronica in VA]

I have been enjoying this thread and considered jumping in early on, but I instead really wanted to think first about how we are still implementing TWTM. I remember the early days of the board, and though my children were young, I enjoyed reading the high school board for me. I learned so much. At first, I implemented almost everything. We did stick with Sonlight and for awhile I tried to figure out how to do it chronologically, but gave up and just stuck with the SL schedule.

At first, I thought we haven't really stuck with classical ed. I was beating myself up for only completing 2 years of Latin,but then my dd came home from Spanish class and thanked me for the times we chanted Latin and conjugations as that really has helped her. As we worked on Warriner's grammar, I wished I had finished R&S up through 8th grade, and been less relaxed. Then as we completed the exercises I realized she knew more than I thought she did. As we read Eusbeius' History of the Church together, I wish we had read more challenging works in the past. Then she explained a point to me in the History that I had missed.

While I haven't implemented everything as I thought I would when I first read TWTM, she has still learned so much. Most importantly, she has learned how to think. When I consider that when I pulled her out of ps, she couldn't really read (and the teachers didn't think she ever would), we have come so far. We still have a ways to go, but we are enjoying the journey.

Thanks for this thread!

Veronica

[Lizzie in Ma]

My name is Lizzie and I am a classical homeschooler.
The WTM boards have been my source for friendship, help, advice, solace, amusement and help with teaching my children for almost 7 years now. TWTM was my first experience with a "how to" and it was and remains my finest source for reference. I consider our school "eclectic classical" and while I no longer strictly follow the outline of a classical education a la WTM I still love the concept.
I think sometimes, I get lazy, ok, no, I know I do. I get tired. My 11 year old yells about hating one subject or another. My seven year old hates speed drills. Being here inspires me daily to be a better teacher and a better mother. I have gleaned so much and am so grateful for these boards and the gurus on it. I read certain folks posts because I know they school in a similar manner than I do. I ignore many (unless I feel I have something to offer) because they are not where I am, with kids the same ages or stages as mine. There are some people who post and I smile just to see their names. So, maybe the boards have changed. Maybe many of us have grown in different ways. Maybe I so wish I were a better writer and could say all this more eloquently. We are all in the trenches together, learning together and trying to serve our children as best we are able. And that is classic.

[Nan in Mass]

He's brightish, so I had to choose whether to go farther or broader with him when he was in elementary school. I chose broader, taught him French, got him robotix, had him read almost the whole children's non-fiction section in the library, taught him to draw, did piano, etc... Now that he is older, I'm having to make a new sort of decision, more like the one you described. I've decided that although we will encourage the engineering-type things out of "school", for school, our approach will be, for the sake of his creativity, to give him the things he won't get once he is in his vocational program in college. That means an emphasis on art, music, more languages, great books, and anthropology/geography/travel. Not that we will neglect the science and math; just that we won't let courses in them take up all his time. We made a similar decision with my 17yo., who is also headed for something other than liberal arts. So far, these seem to be the right decisions. My 13yo is very happy to be able to speak French and is now tackling Arabic. He has decorated the livingroom cabinets with comics he has drawn. Whenever he is a little bored, he heads for the piano and makes up pieces. All this seems to balance his almost incessent building very nicely, just as his gymnastics seems to be necessary because it allows him to be able to sit still and focus the rest of the time. These things all seem to feed into each other. He transfers one thing to another and makes it look like he is especially creative to outsiders who don't see the source.
It is a very difficult decision, though. Often, I make it the other way round, opting to let them excell at something they are good at rather than spend the time making them mediocre at something they are bad at, allowing them to be lopsided rather than "well rounded". In the end, there is no way mine are going to be well rounded people. They were born extreme lopsiders. I'm just trying to give them some inner richness to sustain them through the boring bits of life, and crossover creativity.
This has been an interesting discussion. Every time we do something like this on the board, I learn tons.
-Nan

[Laura K (NC)]

I was interested in a discussion about whether TWTM boards, at least the academic ones such as the K-8 boards, should be smaller because there was a greater percentage of WTM users there, or broader, where using TWTM didn't matter.

Of course the answer lies in neither extreme, because it was rhetorical, but the second part of the question was a legitimate concern to me and some others: where are the classical homeschoolers?

Not that I was trying to make some kind of managerial decision based on responses! LOL I was just trying to see what might happen if I asked a question like that.

My question was inspired by the phenomenon of mega churches. A mega church includes a lot of marketing. They are trying to draw as large a crowd as possible in order to evangelize to them, and it might be the case that the message becomes diluted in order to keep it palatable to new or potential believers. Some smaller churches evangelize on the outside, but once someone is brought into the fold, more is asked of each believer, and that rigor of belief sometimes turns people away who might consider the tenets or practice of the Christian life too too hard. It happened in Jesus life; it was almost the theme song of everyone around Him. In the case of churches and homeschool boards I think both the rigorous and the (choosing words carefully here) more accessible are valuable depending on how much a person can handle.

I just wish "rigor" hadn't been turned into a dirty word the past few days!

[mrscopterdoc]

Coming from a sort of newbie ~ I've only been homeschooling 3 years, lurked on the old boards the whole time and just recently started posting here ~ I agree with Kelli.....

There is variation, no doubt. I still consider WTM The Book I turn to for answers and inspiration. I have tried nearly everything SWB suggested and some of it has fallen by the wayside simply because I am lacking.

I have not adhered to WTM as closely as I would have liked. But reading that book every year and listening in on the conversations on this forum have made me a better teacher and have made me try harder.

When I first started homeschooling I knew no one else. I felt totally alone and I had NO clue what I was doing. I stumbled across The Book in Barnes and Noble and my life changed in an instant. I rushed home, devoured it and started writing out lesson plans and buying books. And things were ...ok... for awhile. It was very hard to do espeically with no encouragement. Then I found the forums. Hallelujah! I didn't post, I lurked because I didn't feel like I knew what I was doing. [still don't:)]. But I found answers to whatever I needed. I noticed that very few people seemed to be 'hard core classical followers' of The Book and at first I thought that was odd. But as time went on and it wasn't working for us so much, it was great to discover that was okay to try something different. My daughter is very athletic and not artisically inclined at all. We finally dropped music completely and the only art we will do is photography. Is that classical? No, but that is the beauty of homeschool.

I try to stick to the 'core' English, Math, Science, and History and then the 'core' of classical education ~ writing, reading, logic, languages and latin. I do the best I can and pray it is enough and come here for support!:)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I just wish "rigor" hadn't been turned into a dirty word the past few days!


Hmm, I don't think it did become a dirty word for me, but I do know this: When I was schooling my dd in middle school recently, her education was absolutely rigorous. I wouldn't have it any other way, because we homeschooled *primarily* for academic reasons. However, I know we didn't line up just right with the WTM. And I'm not sure whether or not, based on the fact that it wasn't pure, that it would be considered rigorous enough by some.

My burning cry has always and ever been, "Make sure your children are educated, and educated well, whatever it takes." And I think I've done that diligently. But not purely as outlined in The Book.

(And I know I'm one who messes up the purity of these boards. I'm thankful to be allowed under the big tent.)

[Nan in Mass]

We've found rigor to be a sneaky fellow as well. :)

[Colleen in NS]

popular when the children were young and then there would be a great dropping off of people who were unable to throw themselves fully into the studying required to give the higher levels of Classical Education. I'd love to see a poll of who is still doing what they dreamed off 5+ years ago. As our children grow older, us older WTM'ers get pretty busy, and we don't want to feel like we are beating people over the head for what they are choosing to do. I was always the wacko one around all the other homeschoolers I visited with in my area, but proof is in the pudding. I am on the slow and steady, not perfect path and seeing fabulous results. I'd encourage everyone here to do Latin to its fullest, to jump into the Progymn and learn it themselves, to toss out the twaddle and read only the best books, and push hard on math and not give up. I'm glad the days of debating who is really classical and who is only neoclassical have died down. I don't want to even call myself classical after those, just because I'm not educating little Classicists, but working on bringing up children who can serve in any area the Lord calls them. Right now I'm in the force who is in the trenches working hard and not giving up. With middle schoolers etc., we don't have time to enter the curriculum debates as much. We are preparing to figure out all the high school credits and how to teach what we've never learned ourselves. It is 12:18 and I'm working on a phonetic translation of Carmen in French so my daughter can prepare for her parts. I don't even know French, what am I doing? I'm just doing everything possible to give my children the fullest, deepest, richest education possible. I encourage all new WTM moms to not take the easy road, but read and search and research and really know what they are teaching and why.

This is great!!! This is the kind of stuff I LOVE to read on these boards - it's sooooooooooooo encouraging to me as a Mom of still-grammar stage kids!!! I know nothing about the debates you mentioned (and don't really want to know :)), I'm just so happy to read these occasional posts from WTM Moms who are HAPPY with having done what they have done. Thanks for taking time from your French study to post. :)

Thank you!

[Colleen in NS]

However, this summer I had a "turning point" of sorts in my approach with my children. I listened to Douglas Wilson's talk from the 2007 ACCS Conference last summer in Atlanta, entitled, "Lowering Standards While Submitting to Christ's Authority." The main thrust of the message was in maintaining high standards in education while not losing the children you're trying to teach. He used an analogy that, ultimately, we all want to give our children a million dollars (i.e., an excellent classical education), but if they end up hating it and us for it, we've given them nothing. You'd have to listen to the entire talk to catch all his points, and there's a false dichotomy which he outlines in the talk. Another main point he made was in communicating the enthusiasm of subjects and defending their importance with our children.

I guess what I learned from that message, which I listened to repeatedly, sometimes with tears, is that I really do want to do so much more with them, but I can't lead or push my "sheep" beyond what they're capable of retaining at the moment. My girls do rigorous work; their test scores show that. But, I have to keep my eyes always on them and what they're capable of doing, and lead them with love (not to imply that others who do more are not doing that! Of course not!). So---it became apparent to me that I could not get them to move further on in Latin beyond Henle I without losing their hearts. They were mentally and emotionally finished with the subject. So, I felt like it was time to move on and allow them to do a modern foreign language, which we'll tackle next year, having just finished Henle I this year.

Oh, this is such good food for thought, too. Thank you so much for posting all this.

[Brenda in MA]

I do think that the core of posts/posters has changed a bit over the 7 years I've been visiting these boards. One common thing, though, is something dh and I heard as we were exploring the idea of hs. We heard this from a co-worker of his whose wife had homeschooled their children for years. That is that what all homeschoolers share, no matter the approach, is a passion for seeing their children succeed and making sacrifices to see that happen. Even though the nitty gritty of the day to day approach can be very different for different families, I've come to understand the wisdom of this comment.

We are a family that started out trying to follow TWTM to the letter when my oldest was a 5th grader. Although I quickly found out that my son was not up to the level of literature recommended at such a young age, I did find his passion for a good story. I also found that I had to reduce expectations in some areas in order to meet him where he was. I've also found that we came to the high school years too quickly with this son where we've had to make decisions about how much emphasis to place on particular subjects given the time we have left and my son's interests.

I share Michelle's view that sometimes you have to make a decision to move on to a different subject if by not doing so, you will kill your child's passions. Just switching gears like this (especially with a teen) doesn't necessarily mean that you've choosing the "easier" route. With some teens, I think it easy to see where their talents/interests lie, and that makes it easier to help them find enough time and balanced their activities so they can pursue their passions.

I really appreciate the diversity of methods and hs approaches represented on this board. When I read a post by someone whose methods are drastically different from mine, it really makes me think outside the box a bit. I have to ask myself, "Am I really missing the point of teaching this subject? Or, perhaps this approach just wouldn't fit my child or our goals." Many, many times here, I've been inspired to make changes or to try an approach that I wouldn't have had the courage to try before because I know others have been down the road. The result has been an added richness to our homeschooling.

Literature, for example, has not been a strength of mine. I hated, hated literature in high school and being forced to read many books that I did not have the experience to understand or interpret. When my son started his high school years, I was determined that he would not hate literature. As a result, we've taken a more non-traditional approach. I felt empowered to do that by reading many posts here and by reading TWTM.

We've read a lot of good books together and discussed them, and he's written about them, but I sometimes feel that I neglected analyzing each book completely, as a literature teacher would have done. As we near the end of high school, I wonder if my son will be prepared to tackle the few literature courses he will need to take in college -- but, I realize that he does not hate literature like I did. I did not kill his love for a good story. So I guess I succeeded in one way, but perhaps failed in another. Only time will tell. My heart says he will be fine, though.

So, thanks to all for your perspectives, and for sharing your approaches, struggles, and successes. This board is the one forum where I feel free to discuss and contemplate a what a rigorous education looks like. I also feel free here to share our struggles and our successes. I very much enjoy hearing about others' successes so I can rejoice with them and wonder at the possibilities of educating a high schooler at home.

Brenda

[Janice in NJ]

Oh. P.S. Dd is also learning how to program a graphing calculator. She likes it. She thinks it's fun.

Thanks to all for this thread. I love thinking out loud with you gals!!!!!

Peace,
Janice

[Kinsa]

Coming into this question late... and I'm not about to read all 8 pages of responses at this point, so forgive me if I'm repeating.

I started the classical model from the get-go about 8 years ago. I found TWTM at a bookstore, bought it, devoured it, and was completely sold on the idea.

I started posting on the WTM forums in 2002, and have been posting on and off for these past six years.

Over that time, I have noticed exactly what you have mentioned. I am always surprised at the fact that there are unschoolers, unit study-ers, and other non-classical methodologies here. I'm certainly not saying that there is no merit in those methods, but this is, after all, a board for those following the constructs of WTM --- isn't it???

I noticed a large jump from classical to "other" when VegSource started to become snooty in their posting policies. I wonder if there was a large influx of people because of that? Maybe there just aren't enough other places for people to post? Just musing out loud...

I come here for encouragement to stay the course when I feel it's becoming difficult. I come here to ask questions. And lately, it feels like I'm a dinosaur. I only consider myself to be moderately classical, but even that feels out of place. Someone asked a question about a classical piece of literature, and there were only two responses to it - mine and one other persons. I would have assumed many more people, especially on a board for classical educators, would have been able to answer that question. I asked a few questions about greek, and I received very few responses. It makes me wonder if anyone is even bothering to teach greek at all.

ANYWAY...

I share your sentiments. And yes, I know that I'm responded to a high school board and I don't have any high schoolers yet. (LOL)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Over that time, I have noticed exactly what you have mentioned. I am always surprised at the fact that there are unschoolers, unit study-ers, and other non-classical methodologies here. I'm certainly not saying that there is no merit in those methods, but this is, after all, a board for those following the constructs of WTM --- isn't it???

I guess I just always assumed that all were welcome by the the owners of the board.

??

[Kinsa]

I guess I just always assumed that all were welcome by the the owners of the board.

??

I'm sure that they are. But I guess I don't really understand why someone who's not using WTM would want to post here. After all, I don't use Sonlight, for example, so why would I go to Sonlight forums to post and ask my questions, kwim?

Okay... I'm just going to crawl back into my little hole now... :rolleyes:

[Maria/ME]

I am always surprised at the fact that there are unschoolers, unit study-ers, and other non-classical methodologies here. I'm certainly not saying that there is no merit in those methods, but this is, after all, a board for those following the constructs of WTM --- isn't it???

Earlier, and more passionately:rolleyes:, I was trying to get across the point that all these other methodologies can work WITH TWTM. It sounds like many unschoolers/unit stud-ers/relaxed schoolers have used WTM for their inspiration,impetus and basis for homeschooling. I feel like I am so far way from the classical model, but I still gather inspiration from the book and from the board. Constantly. Someone mentioned that she is glad those of us who fall in this category are "allowed" to be here. I guess I feel the same, although I never thought of myself as tolerated. But perhaps those of us who are eclectically inclined ARE tolerated and allowed to play with the others!


[/QUOTE] Someone asked a question about a classical piece of literature, and there were only two responses to it - mine and one other persons. I would have assumed many more people, especially on a board for classical educators, would have been able to answer that question. I asked a few questions about greek, and I received very few responses. It makes me wonder if anyone is even bothering to teach greek at all. [/QUOTE]

I've noticed this too. Honestly I think it is because there are SO many posts and this board moves SO fast. I can not keep up unless I was sitting here 24/7. I don't think it's a lack of classical people out there (obviously, as this thread attests to!) I think posts get "lost".

Just some other thoughts as this conversation continues. I see a great difference in methodologies that coincides with the REASONS we actually choose to homeschool. It has been interesting in this thread to see where most of you are "coming from" in your decision to homeschool. For those of you that are more TWTM "hardcore" (as it were) it seem academic rigor was something you found lacking in the school system so you decided to set that standard at home. For my husband and I academic rigor was important, but our daughters freedom from being a "sheep" in a structured state run school environment, learning what the "state" decides she should learn is what led me away from the public school system. The ideals I have about what school should be are reflected in my approach which was inspired and motivated by TWTM. We started from that standpoint, but added some Montessori, some Waldorf, some unschooling, and whatever else fit with our family.

When I first started I burnt us both out by pushing 10 subjects a day. Pushing play dates, events, field trips and "we have to be classical". We chafed. Then because of circumstances in life we unschooled. That seemed to be frustrating to us because it lacked structure. We found a middle ground. I am neither. But I'm still "allowed" in both camps. ;)

This has been a fascinating thread because while I have been feeling a bit marginalized, so have the more classical schoolers! Perhaps, when it comes down to it, it's a product of the new forum, how it is working, changing and gathering more people to inspire.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I'm sure that they are. But I guess I don't really understand why someone who's not using WTM would want to post here. After all, I don't use Sonlight, for example, so why would I go to Sonlight forums to post and ask my questions, kwim?

Okay... I'm just going to crawl back into my little hole now... :rolleyes:

No, I didn't mean it that way.

I don't post on the Sonlight forums because I don't LIKE the Sonlight forums. And they're not particularly inclusive, at least IME.

Despite the how some feel the general board looks like middle school sometimes (and I agree and have, I suppose, inadvertently contributed to that atmosphere on occasion), there's a passel of very smart, entertaining, and committed people on this board. They don't all look like me. They don't all believe like me. They don't all educate their kids that same way as me.

I dunno. I was in the wave of folks who adulterated the boards, and while I'm not really offended at those who pine for the good old days, I'm always at least a little taken aback by it. I was thinking about incorporating some WTM ideas (before I read the book) and found the forums. They seemed casual and welcoming, so I jumped in. And I did modify our schooling to include the parts of WTM that worked for us (Latin, some outlining, sequential history, original source texts, the grammar and math recommendations, etc). But I know that my posting about life and not literature rankled some users. I would have desisted if the Ghosts in the Machine had asked me to do so, though.

Anyway, I hope even my contributions on this board have helped one or two, even though my big kids were/are institutionally schooled for high school. There's enough side discussion about SAT's, college entrance procedures, transcript prep (which I've done), AP requirements, etc. that even though I can't even imagine having it together enough to homeschool high school with the rigor that I demand of myself and my kids, I feel I can be a useful member of the community even over here.

Hope that's a decent clarification of why I'm still around. :)

[Laura K (NC)]

Pam,

Can you suggest a board where she can get more than one or two people to answer her questions about classical education? I would like to suggest this forum to newbies. I'd love for classical homeschoolers to feel like there was a community here for homeschooling issues that don't involve a certain textbook or a different program to buy. I'm starting to feel like some people would rather we be denied this.

My point was not to drive anyone away. I know it seems like that to some people, and if I really was trying to doing that, I think SWB would be aghast. I personally need some encouragement in doing the classical method. I have found out that I'm not the only one. I have been glad to find out that I'm not alone.

[Kinsa]

Oh, I'm not saying that we should do "method cleansing" on this board or anything like that. (LOL) I'm fine with all the people here. It just has me scratching my head sometimes, that's all. I can glean wisdom from other people, whether or not they are die-hard WTMers. I hope I don't come across as "I wish there were only WTMers here and everyone else would scram!" Just wanted to clarify. Nope. Not meaning to marginalize anyone at all.

[percytruffle]

I tend to spend more time on the general board since the switch because ds, my last homeschooler, is almost done and I don't need as much input and direction as I do down time and stress relief (aka the teachers' lounge)!

That said, something I've noticed the entire time I've come to these boards is the infrequency with which the truly Classical hs'ers visit and post as opposed to the more relaxed hs'ers. The ladies I have most admired over the years for the success they have seen in their homeschooling efforts have been some of the most scarce. Why? Perhaps they are too busy homeschooling to spend time at the boards. They pop in every once in a while if they have a pressing question or wish to share an encouraging success story, but they are able to attain that rigor in their academics because it is their sole focus and takes up a great deal of their time.

I do admit that there has also been some change to this homeschooling community over time. The homeschooling population in general has shifted and continues to evolve and perhaps these boards are a reflection of that change.

I have learned so much from everyone here over the years. It took me several years of reading and lurking to feel confident enough to post at all. I am truly thankful there is a community such as this.

[Kelli in TN]

Pam,

Can you suggest a board where she can get more than one or two people to answer her questions about classical education? I would like to suggest this forum to newbies. I'd love for classical homeschoolers to feel like there was a community here for homeschooling issues that don't involve a certain textbook or a different program to buy. I'm starting to feel like some people would rather we be denied this.

.

I think I find that here when I really look for it. I have never had a question go unanswered.

I make a point to mostly stay out of certain conversations. I read them, glean from them and keep my agreement/disagreement to myself. On this (as in the highschool) board there is rarely a question I would be bold enough to answer. I am so far from where most of you are and truthfully there have been posters who have a "if you can't do it like this you ought not do it at all" attitude. I don't want to tangle up with that sort of argument.

On the old boards there was one poster who literally said "If I could not do it better than the public schools, I would not do it at all". That smacked. My heart hurt for the very discouraged, fairly new homeschooler that she said this to. I don't know if I am alone here, and I do not presume to speak for others, but most of the time I am unwilling to put myself "out there" because I know that I am not the brightest bulb on the tree. That makes me a little bit afraid to give my opinion, because it does not always match up with this board.

All that to say, there are probably others like me who are still sold on WTM, trying our best to implement every bit of it that we can, struggling through pieces of literature that our own education never required, trying to understand logic, etc. But we may have had to make concessions in some subject areas just to be able to get it all done.

I don't think very many here want to deny the original vision of classical homeschooling. And for the handful that do, the new boards offer an ignore function for those posts!:p

[Nan in Mass]

I think the problem is that nobody fits into labels very well.

Myrtle says she's not doing TWTM and not doing classical, and yet we need her and Charon's expertese (sorry about spelling) on math. They are providing guidance on rigourous, classical math.

Tina in Ouray and Plaid Dad don't seem to be doing TWTM because it isn't classical enough (forgive me if I'm wrong) but we need their guidance for logic and Latin, and for other definitions of classical.

Jane in NC is more science oriented than TWTM, but we need her input on doing science classically.

Ellie isn't doing TWTM but she has a vast experience with the legalities of homeschooling.

I AM doing TWTM more closely, but am not rigorous or academically minded.

Lisa NY was doing TWTM fairly but her oldest is in public high school now.

Abbyej isn't doing TWTM because her children are academically gifted, but she herself was homeschooled and is generous with her very sensible advice.

Someone on the curriculum board (don't want to mangle her name so I'll skip it) has the energy to do research, especially about French programs, and offers the results of her hard work to us all, but she has very young children and isn't really doing much academic work yet.

And so on and so forth. So many valuable people. And these are only the ones I thought of off the top of my head!

If you rolled us all into one, then we would be rigorous WTMers. LOL

-Nan

PS I think we all have to remember that SWB and JW offered us the best curriculums they could find that weren't too expensive, weren't too hard for your average bear, and were easily available at the time they wrote the book. Many of the board posters' modifications are because options now exist. That's a huge function of this board - to help keep TWTM updated and to help us all personalize our choices. Don't I remember SWB saying she wasn't going to do any more updates of her book because the board was doing a fine job at that? (If I misremembered, please forgive me SWB.)

[Maria/ME]

Nan:

Well said. Very well said.

We all contribute no matter where we are on the journey. But we are all here because TWTM motivated and inspired us and we BELIEVE in,and to some degree or another, we follow TWTM.

We are here because of what we gain from the boards. While I tend toward relaxed/eclectic I gain just as much from the posters who are "hard core classical" than I do from fellow relaxed schoolers.

I disagree with the idea that we should only be here if we actively follow TWTM as has been hinted at/mentioned by some posters. We are here to learn from others. The boards are like one big library of homeschooling resources based on TWTM.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Pam,

Can you suggest a board where she can get more than one or two people to answer her questions about classical education? I would like to suggest this forum to newbies. I'd love for classical homeschoolers to feel like there was a community here for homeschooling issues that don't involve a certain textbook or a different program to buy. I'm starting to feel like some people would rather we be denied this.

My point was not to drive anyone away. I know it seems like that to some people, and if I really was trying to doing that, I think SWB would be aghast. I personally need some encouragement in doing the classical method. I have found out that I'm not the only one. I have been glad to find out that I'm not alone.

I would hope that someone who is starting to classically educate their child could get help on these forums. I'm starting to think that it's possible that I'm not understanding fully what the issue is here, but I do know that for some of us, textbooks are involved. Some are even recommended by WTM. Right? I accidentally allowed my copy to be permanently "borrowed," but R&S (and formerly Abeka), Wheelock's, and what, Singapore? I don't recall the other maths that are recommended texts.

You mean other programs like Veritas or Omnibus or Sonlight or Ambleside, right?

Anyway, Laura, I have to say that I am very sorry that you don't have as much support as you need here or are uncomfortable recommending the board to new people. My discomfort, I guess, rests in the fact that perhaps my posting here adds to *your* discomfort.

(And believe me, if we were in the same room you would know by my body language and tone that I have nothing but respect in my heart and conversation on my mind while participating in this conversation. I think it might be possible that my posts might feel a bit curt and provocative. It's not my intention to provoke, I promise, just to clarify and explain my thoughts as I read this thread.)

And no, I don't know of another forum. Vegsource was not a safe place for me -- too much anger and hurt feelings and drama and misunderstandings, then the banning of this or that person for vague reasons. Sonlight forums -- well, not my cup of tea, as I didn't really FOLLOW Sonlight after I found WTM, I just used some of their materials to streamline my life. Yahoo groups don't feel cozy enough and occasionally annoy me both in format and moderation choices. Denim Jumper was welcoming, but I wasn't at home there, though I adore (from afar, lol) Poppins. So I'm really no help with suggestions.

[LaMere Academy]

I'm sure that they are. But I guess I don't really understand why someone who's not using WTM would want to post here. After all, I don't use Sonlight, for example, so why would I go to Sonlight forums to post and ask my questions, kwim?

Okay... I'm just going to crawl back into my little hole now... :rolleyes:

Because a lot of information can still be given and gleaned from even if your not a strict WTM'er.

On that note, I'm a member of two other homeschool boards and I'm sure it may happen here as well...but why are people who are no longer homeschooling, but have put their children back in ps still on homeschool boards??

I guess everyone has their reasons for being here...

[Beth in SW WA]

I would hope that someone who is starting to classically educate their child could get help on these forums.

That would be me! I'm in my 8th month of this crazy & wonderful classical/WTM hybrid form of homeschooling. I, for one, am so thankful TO GOD for you ladies -- and gents -- who so graciously share your wisdom w/ us newbies. All my choices have come from SWB and/or you fine folks.

As for those who don't homeschool their grown-up kiddos any longer, yet still post and share on the forums here -- THANK YOU!! (nod to Janet in Seattle) because I have been blessed by YOU :)

[SnowWhite]

Do you suppose the owners and moderators here would be open to the idea of a "Classical Only" board?

Just an idea. That way, those who wanted a close knit specific community would have it.

[RebeccaC]

I have been following this thread wondering if someone else would post this but since it hasn't been posted after 8+ pages I will ;) These boards are not just about TWTM but all the books/curriculum that Jessie and Susan have produced. Most of those books are not exclusively classical in nature. They reach a broad spectrum of hsing styles. SOTW is used by Sonlight which is Beechick/ lit in nature. SOTW with its activity guide can be used with ease by unit study, CMason, eclectic, ect..... folks. Susan's new book for the ancients is not elusively classical and again could be used by all kinds of hsers. Jessie's books are not exclusively classical either.

If you look at these boards from a purely business perspective they are a support for set of products which come from a classical view but are easily adapted by many types of hsers. The more books that Susan and Jessie write that can be easily adapted by a wide range of hsers the more diverse the boards will be. In the beginning they were more classical because TWTM comes from that view and Susan had yet to write SOTW but now all of Susan and Jessie's book have hit the hs market and are used by all kinds of hsers. I would wager that these boards do not move back to an inclusive classical type boards but will increase in a blend of classical and...... That is good for Susan and Jessie because it means more books bought by a broader spectrum of folks rather than books bought only by classical hsers. Being on the boards for as long as I have I know that they are not here from a business only perspective that Susan sees these boards as a way to bless hsers and God bless her for that!

[Sweetpeach]

{Whops . . . this is the high school board . . . rigour away, gals. Fill your boots. Get those kids ready for university! I thought I was on the curr. board. *sigh*)


I think you posted very eloquently and gently about meeting your children at the heart-level while continuing to pursue "rigour" in your academics. I often find myself squirming while reading the "purists" point of view for education and academics.

I believe rigourously educating a child in the classical/neo-classical method is lovely so long that the K - 6 child not be burdened with heavy, lengthy academics. IMHO, joy of learning is THE foundational cornerstone for a young child to carry on with higher level academics. If it burdens a child's spirit just to finish the K- 6 years, will they have the stamina/desire/joy to keep plugging? Or will academics become a battle of the wills, plotting parent against child and possibly damaging what should be a lovely, long-term relationship?

I want my children to look back on our school days with fond, happy memories . . . it forces me to be on my game, and always working hard to deliver school in a way that agrees with the different personalities of my kiddies.


Musings from this end.

T

[WendyK]

I follow the WTM fairly closely, but for me I enjoy these boards because it is one of the few places I can get answers about specific books. At the homeschool gatherings my family attends, we have never once talked about books or school oddly enough.

I do see the "plan" presented in the WTM as very flexible though. It is one of the major things that attracted me to it. It can accommodate a struggling child and an accelerated child. Unlike, for example, a prepackaged grade specific program. That just would not work for us. But yet I still feel like I have a plan and an overview of where we are headed. The cycling through the 4 time periods and the trivium help give one a focus without boxing one in like a grade level often does.

Whenever I am feeling confused, or nervous about where I am headed or what is in store, I refer back to the "book" (WTM book). After skimming and rereading this or that section I feel like I am back on track.

[LisaNY]

Because a lot of information can still be given and gleaned from even if your not a strict WTM'er.

On that note, I'm a member of two other homeschool boards and I'm sure it may happen here as well...but why are people who are no longer homeschooling, but have put their children back in ps still on homeschool boards??

I guess everyone has their reasons for being here...

I really, really hope that your post has not hurt people. I'm going to try to be nice here, since I am really angry right now at such an insensitive post. :mad:

Right off the bat, I think of Ria, a long-time poster on these forums, who has just placed her dc in ps. She has contributed so much to this place, and I, for one, am grateful for her. Are you saying that she no longer has a place here because she no longer has children at home????????? Goodness!! That's like saying older women, who longer have children at home, no longer have anything to contribute to younger, new moms.

Many hs moms, who have placed their children in public/private school for one reason or another, can still bless us with their wisdom and experience.

Maybe some of these women just want to stay in touch with friends, or see what is happening, or maybe share their experience.

On a personal note, I have one dd in ps, and another who will be going in two years. I plan to keep in touch here.

[Maria/ME]

LisaNY: I don't think Lamere met anything negative by her post. I think she was taking off of the poster who asked why would anyone come here if they don't follow WTM? and Lamere meant...for that matter, why do people who aren't homeschooling here? That was how I took it. IN a why are ANY of us here, way.

Snowwhite: I was thinking of this earlier...perhaps a portion of the board for those that are following more strictly and those of us who are more eclectic in nature. The problem is, some of the best ideas I've implemented are from those who consider themselves rigorous. The support I get comes from places I wouldn't expect and I'm so happy when it does! I'm afraid I would linger on only one aspect of the board and miss out. One thing I like about the boards is that I am challenged and inspired by those I wouldn't otherwise agree with, KWIM?

[LisaNY]

I'm sure that they are. But I guess I don't really understand why someone who's not using WTM would want to post here. After all, I don't use Sonlight, for example, so why would I go to Sonlight forums to post and ask my questions, kwim?

Okay... I'm just going to crawl back into my little hole now... :rolleyes:

Sonlight is a forum created *specificially* for those using that curriculum, just like the TOG forum was created *specifically* for those using that curriculum.

I see WTM as an approach to teaching, that can be interpreted and utilized in so many different ways. It is not a *specific* curriculum, per se. It's an amazing treasure trove of ideas meant to inspire us to make it our own. I don't think SWB ever meant for us to follow it to the letter.

I think the majority of people represented here are those who are really serious about giving their dc the best education they possibly can. We all have our "bents" and strengths, but I think we all share that common goal. That is why I come here for support. I have learned SO much from the great people here. The wisdom and advice that I've received here has been invaluable to me, and has made me a better hs'er.

[Michelle in MO]

Because a lot of information can still be given and gleaned from even if your not a strict WTM'er.

On that note, I'm a member of two other homeschool boards and I'm sure it may happen here as well...but why are people who are no longer homeschooling, but have put their children back in ps still on homeschool boards??

I guess everyone has their reasons for being here...

The question could have been posed out of simple curiosity. "Tone" is somewhat hard to read over cyberspace.

There are many on these boards who used to homeschool who still come back to visit, and I'm sure the question was not posed as a challenge---at least, that's not how I read it.

:)

[Patty Joanna]

I don't have a lot of actual *content* to add to this thread in this post, but I will say this: I have hope that with the new board format, we can return to having this kind of discussion again. On the old format, we would often get a good discussion going, but it would "die" after the particular board flipped. As flipping got more frequent, it was almost impossible to have a sustained discussion of anything, including classical education or parts thereof.

Now, with this new board format, I can "subscribe" to a thread, and that means that I can actually have five minutes to THINK about what it is I want to say and create genuine content rather than flurried reactions. I hope that we can all start to do this more often with threads that require more thought and continue those discussions that are of interest at a deeper level.

Kind regards to all,

[Patty Joanna]

Now for the "content" post:

I have continued in the "classical" way, but it is not how I envisioned I would be doing so from the beginning. We are working more with a classical co-op at this point; I have shifted from history-centered to Latin-centered, and now that we have converted to Orthodox Christianity, I am taking a year to give my son intensive time in history of Eastern Christianity and in the Faith, so THAT is a shift.

Two other things strike me about why I don't post as much as I used to: first, I have settled down and into a path. There is less disruption because I don't worry so much about which math or Latin program--we just DO one. The second thing had a lot to do with the old board format. Why post ****again**** about what I think about classical ed, which it just flips in a couple of days? That objection is gone, and I might get inspired again.

Also, I think one reason people "drop off" the classical map in high school is that it is very tough to stand in this path when the ACT and SAT and PSAT and standardized testing and transcripts start staring you down. For those who don't have a strong sense of where they are going with all this, it is tough to stay the course. I have seen this within both the homeschool and private school classical communities--there are a number of classical schools with which I am familiar, and they all have a very tough time filling their schools when 7th/8th grade rolls around.

We're here for the duration, whether or not I am talkative about it.

[Laura K (NC)]

Patty Joanna,
I was wondering today what I will put on transcripts... whether to try to make "medieval and renaissance history" stand with that title, or how to classify subjects like logic or rhetoric (language arts?), or even how most state colleges will view subjects like logic or rhetoric. I want to do a year of Church history too, and does that count as a history or an elective?

A lot of local kids hit the public schools in 8th grade and do very well there. I'm seeing a lot of my local support wane as parents get discouraged, and then if the numbers aren't there, important social opportunities among homeschoolers aren't there like they were in the elementary years. Co-ops here are great until about 7th-8th grade, like you said, then it's harder and harder to find talented moms willing to put that much effort into a class that is supposed to count for "credit." Some here hang on by doing Sonlight or by online classes, most here just try to make it to the junior year when their kids can do dual enrollment. It definitely is more challenging, but I am enjoying homeschooling this year more than ever now that I have a high schooler.

[Deece in MN]

I have read all the posts and it has been an interesting thread.

I wanted to point out that if you have a copy of TWTM handy, you may want to read pages xxiii-xxiv titled Pratical Considerations: Using The Well-Trained Mind Without Losing Your Own.

The authors talk about the freedom we have as hs'ers and that they don't expect people to follow WTM to the letter. It was written as a guide, a way for us to see how it *could* be done, not how it *has* to be done. They state that us, as the readers, should do what works for our situations; including substituting books and using parts of the WTM vs. the whole.

They do state to consider working in a direction that is systematic and rigorous, but, to some extent, I think we will all define those terms a bit differently depending on our situation.

I had a realization today that I have at times in the past taken the path of least resistence when it comes to hs (some of it had to do with life circumstances at the time and some was just my failings). I think a solid, rigorous education is a good and worthy goal, but following WTM sample schedules to the letter isn't the only way to get there.

JMHO

[Cindyg]

That's me. I jumped over here when VegSource got so difficult. When was that -- 4 or 5 years ago? Longer?

When I came, I had had no exposure to classical education, and was already committed to a more traditional Christian education. Which I still am. But I've been encouraged here to supplement with a classical education: we've finished 3 Latin programs, 2 logic books, FLL, SOTW I-IV, etc.

I appreciate coming here to learn about classical education, and I hope the classical emphasis continues.

[Patty Joanna]

In TWTM, there is a very good section on what to "call" these things we do so that translation to transcripts...it kind of comes down to logging hours and then calling them where they are needed--so Great Books reading ends up in both history AND English. I also got an email from a homeschooling consultant today; the mail is about this very topic.

I'm finding our co-op situation getting dramatically BETTER as my son gets older. I could use the two co-ops with which I am affiliated to drive my classical goals for writing/rhetoric, Latin, science and history. My dh has math under control, our priest church history, and I have skiing and swim team. (wink) And whip-cracking. And general planning. WHICH IS NOT NOTHING!

I think I will like this better in the high school years; these junior-high years seem to be pretty much about transitioning from being a kid to being a young man, about learning how to handle larger work loads, and they frankly aren't as much fun. But I think we will find our way to the other side, back to the interesting conversations, and that's good. To tell the truth, when we get to DO that stuff, I like this homeschooling a lot.

It kind of freaks me out that I have a rising 8th grader on my hands, though. When did THAT happen?

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Patty Joanna,
I was wondering today what I will put on transcripts... whether to try to make "medieval and renaissance history" stand with that title, or how to classify subjects like logic or rhetoric (language arts?), or even how most state colleges will view subjects like logic or rhetoric. I want to do a year of Church history too, and does that count as a history or an elective?


Ok, I guess I feel a little funny posting this :D, but my dd goes to a private high school that has a four-year history cycle that includes rhetoric, literature, grammar, and history/art/music in an integrated way. Her transcript will read Foundations I, Foundations II, Foundations III, 2 credits each -- all the above will be described as an integrated unit with the description of, for example, Foundations I as "Ancients, with related literature, history, music, and art plus rhetoric and grammar study." Or at least words to that effect. Not just the course offering, but a descriptor following.

In her senior year, the coursework will split, with modern history standing alone on the transcript, and AP American History available as an elective. Literature study for modern history would then stand alone, but I'm not sure what it's called. Modern Lit? Something.

Anyway, colleges and universities are quite happy with those integrations on their transcripts.

[Patty Joanna]

This is what I have been told, too, Pam, by others who have done this on homeschool transcripts. The thing they were careful to do was to explain what "Foundations I" (or whatever it was they called their conglomeration) consisted of in attached text.

I don't think all the high schools in our DISTRICT list the same courses the same way, so college admissions officers are certainly not looking for uniformity, but clarity.

[Kelli in TN]

. The thing they were careful to do was to explain what "Foundations I" (or whatever it was they called their conglomeration) consisted of in attached text.

.

Ooh, that is NOT wording we would want to use! In our school district Foundations 1 is the math before prealgebra and Foundations 2 is prealgebra. I would not like a college to mistake this. I would be worried that someone would look at the transcript in a hurry and think my student had been taking middle school math in high school!!!

[Patty Joanna]

Or it might be a class in Ladies' Undergarments!

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Ooh, that is NOT wording we would want to use! In our school district Foundations 1 is the math before prealgebra and Foundations 2 is prealgebra. I would not like a college to mistake this. I would be worried that someone would look at the transcript in a hurry and think my student had been taking middle school math in high school!!!

:) Well, Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Duke, Penn, Sewannee, Rice, Smith, Carnegie Mellon, and a boatload of others liked it just fine last year for at least 44 students from NC.

Like I said, I really wouldn't put something like that on there without a description.

[Tokyomarie]

Patty Joanna,
I was wondering today what I will put on transcripts... whether to try to make "medieval and renaissance history" stand with that title, or how to classify subjects like logic or rhetoric (language arts?), or even how most state colleges will view subjects like logic or rhetoric. I want to do a year of Church history too, and does that count as a history or an elective?


Don't have time to read all of Patty Joanna's thoughts right now but just want to respond to this comment from Laura. Yes, do let your history stand with those kinds of titles. My daughters have both had courses with TWTM like titles listed on their transcripts. We tried for clarity in the course title, but also had course descriptions available.

Some of them were outside courses, some were courses done at home. We broke their history down into time periods- though we did separate out American History so the universities knew we had met that specific requirement. We also had courses like Intro to Philosophy, Humanities I & II honors (an outside course on history of the arts), Logic, Rhetoric, etc. We had different types of composition, but one dd did one semester of a course titled Rhetoric. All the state universities were fine with the transcript they received. My second dd received an invitation to apply to the honors program at the university she now attends, probably based not only on her ACT/SAT scores but on the fact that her Great Books type transcript demonstrated possible compatibility with the type of honors classes offered in the first year of the program.

[Laura K (NC)]

I don't know of any local private high schools who offer any of these kinds of classes. I get a little nervous thinking about how competitive schools seem to be, and if all the local schools are lock-step in their reporting, will a non-traditional transcript be a good kind of oddity or a roll-eyes kind of oddity. Many of the more classically motivated homeschoolers here adapt the transcript to make it sort of match the public school one, so that maybe medieval and renaissance literature would be changed to British Lit. since there's so much parallel.

One of my friends had a son with a very successful college application to Wake Forest, and one reason it was good was because it was so unusual, with a very odd but well-written, tightly-crafted essay (which she shared with me). I'd like to run my son along those lines with his transcript, but that's such a leap of faith.

Then again, my son said recently he wanted to become an electrician. Okay, an electrician who could quote Homer and whistle Eine Kleine Nachtmusik... at least his funky transcript won't get in the way! And he'd make more money as an electrician with no four year degree than he would if he became a history teacher in a high school. Thinking of this makes my head spin and so I go off to read the general board for relief. :)

[Nan in Mass]

I think one of the dangers of the sort of education you (and lots of the rest of us, too) are trying to do is that if we do a good job, college may seem sort of redundent, since we are teaching them to think and to keep learning and how to teach themselves. Where does that leave college? My first son became a plumber's apprentice after college because he was so burned out by the ps system here, who were a very bad advertisement for education. My second son I figured would be different, but he knows how to learn himself and is looking at college as a way to be trained in a vocation because he likes learning the rest of the stuff his own way. Hmmmm.....

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I don't know of any local private high schools who offer any of these kinds of classes.

This one I'm speaking of is in Asheville.

Reading books like Colleges That Change Lives is comforting. Standing out in a good way is a GOOD thing, I think. We've been doing competitive admissions since ds was 11, and I really believe that unusual, as long as it is positive and presented in the context of a rich life of genuine curiosity and learning, is a fine way to go. We have certainly found it so.

[LisaNY]

(and I won't give his/her name),

saying he/she just started homeschooling and is new to the WTM method. The person was pretty confused that some of the posts seem to go against the WTM method, and really wanted this board to be a support for the method.

I hope this person will stick around! This is why I first came here, because TWTM was really my ticket out of the public schools. It gave me a backbone. We who are trying hard to follow TWTM shouldn't feel bad for wanting to do our best to implement it and to encourage the "newbies." This is what I've been coming for.

Well, then, I'd encourage her to make an intro post, and ask her questions about WTM. I am sure that people using the WTM method will respond, and you can be the first person to encourage her. :)

[LisaNY]

Of course there is room for both. It is just (at least in my case) that sometimes one of them seems a little scarce.

Nan, do you think it could just be due to the fact that there are less people out there actually using WTM to the letter? As with all programs, people tend to use them differently over the course of time. We hs'ers love to modify and change things to suit our particular needs. I remember going to TWEM forum when it was up and trying to get people to discuss it. I ended up coming back to the main boards and discussing it there, but even then, I had few "takers". (I remember we tried our own little discussion group for a while - that was fun! I loved how you brought a perspective that was totally different and interesting!)

Do you think that there are WTM'ers out there that just got discouraged and left, due to lack of support here? Personally, I don't think so, but I would encourage those lurking hard-core WTM'ers out there to prove me wrong.

[Nan in Mass]

Yes - we're homeschoolers - we all EXCELL at modifying "the system" GRIN, sort of by definition.

[LaMere Academy]

LisaNY: I don't think Lamere met anything negative by her post. I think she was taking off of the poster who asked why would anyone come here if they don't follow WTM? and Lamere meant...for that matter, why do people who aren't homeschooling here? That was how I took it. IN a why are ANY of us here, way.

Snowwhite: I was thinking of this earlier...perhaps a portion of the board for those that are following more strictly and those of us who are more eclectic in nature. The problem is, some of the best ideas I've implemented are from those who consider themselves rigorous. The support I get comes from places I wouldn't expect and I'm so happy when it does! I'm afraid I would linger on only one aspect of the board and miss out. One thing I like about the boards is that I am challenged and inspired by those I wouldn't otherwise agree with, KWIM?

Thank you Maria, that's exactly how I meant it and a sorry to the poster who was so upset. My point is you cannot control who is here or decide who belongs and who does not. We're all here for a reason and I think I stated that in my post.
:D

[LaMere Academy]

I really, really hope that your post has not hurt people. I'm going to try to be nice here, since I am really angry right now at such an insensitive post. :mad:

Right off the bat, I think of Ria, a long-time poster on these forums, who has just placed her dc in ps. She has contributed so much to this place, and I, for one, am grateful for her. Are you saying that she no longer has a place here because she no longer has children at home????????? Goodness!! That's like saying older women, who longer have children at home, no longer have anything to contribute to younger, new moms.

Many hs moms, who have placed their children in public/private school for one reason or another, can still bless us with their wisdom and experience.

Maybe some of these women just want to stay in touch with friends, or see what is happening, or maybe share their experience.

On a personal note, I have one dd in ps, and another who will be going in two years. I plan to keep in touch here.

You took my post totally wrong.
OF COURSE I want people like Ria here...I know the value of women who have "gone before" me and I need them, esp. now as I'm about to embark on the high school journey with my son.
I felt that the original poster and some others were trying to say that unless you are a "by the book" WTM'er that you have no business being here. I meant no offense. :)

[Brenda in MA]

A lot of local kids hit the public schools in 8th grade and do very well there. I'm seeing a lot of my local support wane as parents get discouraged, and then if the numbers aren't there, important social opportunities among homeschoolers aren't there like they were in the elementary years. Co-ops here are great until about 7th-8th grade, like you said, then it's harder and harder to find talented moms willing to put that much effort into a class that is supposed to count for "credit." Some here hang on by doing Sonlight or by online classes, most here just try to make it to the junior year when their kids can do dual enrollment. It definitely is more challenging, but I am enjoying homeschooling this year more than ever now that I have a high schooler.

My local hs group of close to 100 families has only a handful of high schoolers doing school at home. Most families send their dc to private or public high school. Our coop only goes up through 8th grade for that reason, too. There just aren't enough high schoolers to have meaningful classes.

Since my son started high school three years ago, I've tried to make sure that we still have a presence at some group activities. I've had many moms thank me for bringing my high schooler, and tell me that my son being there and going through high school at home is helping to give them courage to teach their dc at home for high school. I hope that is the case, and the number of high schoolers who school at home will grow.

I know that high school at home isn't for everyone, but I've really enjoyed having my son at home, too, and I know that he's growing here both academically and spiritually. I know that his course of study won't fit the "mold" when he begins applying to colleges. My heart says that differences in his schooling will make him stand out above others in the college application process. He won't be student #xxx from public high school yyyy. They will be forced to look at him as an individual.

I could definitely relate to Kelli's post about having moments of panic about whether I have prepared him well enough. When that happens, it can be hard to think clearly about anything. The only way I've been able to keep those feelings at bay is to trust that my son belongs to God first and to me & dh second and that God will lift him up and help him over the bumps.

Leaping in faith right there with you!
Brenda

[LisaNY]

You took my post totally wrong.
OF COURSE I want people like Ria here...I know the value of women who have "gone before" me and I need them, esp. now as I'm about to embark on the high school journey with my son.
I felt that the original poster and some others were trying to say that unless you are a "by the book" WTM'er that you have no business being here. I meant no offense. :)

I get that part, Becky, it's *this* part I had a problem with:

On that note, I'm a member of two other homeschool boards and I'm sure it may happen here as well...but why are people who are no longer homeschooling, but have put their children back in ps still on homeschool boards??

I guess everyone has their reasons for being here...

You may not have meant any offense, but I can see where a post like that can be hurtful. If both of my dd's were in ps, and I read your post, I would not be happy about a post like that.

[Karin]

Or it might be a class in Ladies' Undergarments!

Hmmm, how about a course in the history of undergarments using the Cunnington book The History of Underclothes as the spine. There are an amazing number of books on corsets and various others that you could supplement with and perhaps a few visits to museums...wonder if you could make it a 1/2 credit or a full;)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Hmmm, how about a course in the history of undergarments using the Cunnington book The History of Underclothes as the spine. There are an amazing number of books on corsets and various others that you could supplement with and perhaps a few visits to museums...wonder if you could make it a 1/2 credit or a full;)

And I have The Perfect Fit as supplementary reading, if someone want to tackle it. :D

[Michelle in MO]

A good friend of mine, who has since passed away, was a math teacher at our local middle school. One summer she and a few of the other math teachers at the middle school attended a teacher's enrichment workshop in Oxford, MS, where one of the main courses taught was on women's clothing in the 18th and 19th centuries. I don't believe they had one single math-related course among the three of them. Your tax dollars at work! ;)

[Kathy in MD]

I might do history and lit just as recommended in TWTM, but I use a text for science. Or someone else doesn't do great books in high school, just really good books for her student. Who would be pure enough to post? Or how could you let people know the parameters of a classical only board?

[Laura K (NC)]

Or it might be a class in Ladies' Undergarments!

nt

[Patty Joanna]

Oh, WELL DONE!

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

You could call it a "Great BooKs" course.

Snorting tea out my nose!!! http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/laughing024.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

[Kelli in TN]

Stop it! This has gotten out of hand!! Just this afternoon I was telling a mom who is about start homeschooling that she needed to come here and be encouraged by all the mature, wise women on here. And then I come home and look at what you people are discussing!

Now, aren't you ashamed of yourselves?


I didn't think so. If she sees this I am going to have to explain the difference between books and booKs to her.:D

[Karin]

nt

Very funny!!!! Last night I finally told dh about booKs (okay, he knew about them, but the term) and he asked, "What do you talk about on there?":D All this time I've been justifying my time here by the fact that I'm learning more about homeschooling, etc.

[Nan in Mass]

and that means more people are here, lots of people. Also, we're a particularly polite bunch here, as I notice whenever I read anything else, and that is appealing.
-Nan

[Colleen in NS]

I think this is an excellent discussion, Laura. For our family, personally, we aren't strict followers of the classical method. However, we are very strict followers of pushing our children academically to their maximum potential. The focus is not necessarily on the liberal arts, but may be highly intensive in math and science (which isn't quite so "classical.")

From our experience and POV, educational success is what leads to the capabilities to achieve future academic goals. Our oldest son is majoring in chemical engineering. We could have focused more on the liberal arts (Latin, Greek, ancients) when he was in high school, but opted for him to be able to dual enroll and take the science/math route. I'm not sure that was the wrong decision for him. It was definitely hard work and developed excellent work ethic, exposed him to what he needed to do in order to achieve his dream.

I am also a focuser on the smaller and purer. We can't study everything. We go narrower and deeper. However, in today's technological world, we have made educational room for a slightly different picture (like Janice's list in her post)

I've enjoyed the discussion. With our 3rd child approaching high school next yr, I am still trying to evaluate our route with her. She has no clear cut dreams or focus, so a more traditionally classical approach may be the one we take. Either way, pushing her to her maximum potential is our ultimate goal no matter which subjects we end up selecting to study.

The son you described here is an example in my mind of what good academic preparation can do for kids by the time they get to high school - they can narrow and specialize. From all the posts of yours I have read, I believe you are an excellent teacher of reading and writing, so your kids could probably read and write and reason their way through any subject - and you've let them choose which ones to study in high school. This is what I hope to do for my kids by the time they reach high school years - I just desperately need the help of WTM and posters here to guide my way to that goal, since I wouldn't have a clue how to do it otherwise. :)

[StaceyinLA]

I know I don't follow WTM to the letter, certainly not with my oldest 2. However, ds is pretty in line with a good bit of the WTM.

We did drop Latin, and I'm hoping to pick it back up with him in HS, but the girls probably won't ever do it.

We love doing our history ala WTM, and I try to follow her writing guidelines (when we write, which is bad I know), but some of the stuff just didn't work as well for us.

I love TWTM, and I recommend it a LOT. It is THE one book I will keep around and refer to over and over. However, I realize that each of my kids is different, and they each have different goals in life. My 2 oldest already know what they want to do. One is in college now. One is heading to cosmetology school after graduation. I realize that isn't rigorous, but it's what she loves and what she wants to do. I'm not skimping on her education because of that, but I will not push her to do what is beyond her capabilities (at least right now) just for the sake of doing it either.

3rd dd wants to go to nursing school. I do push her harder. Ds will do goodness knows what, and he is definitely going to surpass all the girls in his schooling (at least here at home). I came to TWTM a little late for some, but not too late for the rest!!

Oh, and I love the boards just the way they are. I think there is a nice mix of people who have all types of experiences, and that's what makes the boards so wonderful!

[Laura K (NC)]

Who would be pure enough to post?

How did you mean "pure" enough? You mean like Aryan-pure, as if classical homeschoolers secretly feel like some kind of master race?

I personally don't want to be quarrantined into a classical-only sub-board, if the rest of the board isn't classical, as if it were some disease that others might catch.

I was thinking this was getting cleared up, but now I'm not sure again.

[Kinsa]

Yes, I realize I'm resurrecting a dead horse and beating it again...

At the risk of gaining negative "reputation points" (whatever those are...)

I guess I'm still missing something, because I still don't get why someone who isn't doing WTM or classical, or has never even read the book, would post here.

Here's what the forum description says for the Parent's Forum K-8 Curriculum Board:

"For questions about specific curricula and their relationship to classical education..."

And here's the forum description for the Parent's Forum General Board:

"For general questions about classical education methods, teaching techniques, readiness,..."

So again... I'm not getting it... <shrugs shoulders>

I'm really not trying to run anyone off the board. Truly, I'm not. But I don't really understand it, that's all. But I certainly stand by your right to be here, regardless of my misunderstanding of it.

[LisaNY]

Yes, I realize I'm resurrecting a dead horse and beating it again...

At the risk of gaining negative "reputation points" (whatever those are...)

I guess I'm still missing something, because I still don't get why someone who isn't doing WTM or classical, or has never even read the book, would post here.

Here's what the forum description says for the Parent's Forum K-8 Curriculum Board:

"For questions about specific curricula and their relationship to classical education..."

And here's the forum description for the Parent's Forum General Board:

"For general questions about classical education methods, teaching techniques, readiness,..."

So again... I'm not getting it... <shrugs shoulders>

I'm really not trying to run anyone off the board. Truly, I'm not. But I don't really understand it, that's all. But I certainly stand by your right to be here, regardless of my misunderstanding of it.

Well, it is probably because they feel supported here, and they can get great advice and help from a really wonderful bunch of people - regardless of whether or not they are purely classical hs'ers. I think people who come here are, or strive to be, serious and dedicated homeschoolers.

Personally, I don't want to spend time wondering why people are here if they don't follow this, or that. I figure they are here because they have found a place that can offer them help and support on their homeschool journey. And, to quote Scrooge's nephew - "I say, G-d bless it!"

[Kelli in TN]

Here's what the forum description says for the Parent's Forum K-8 Curriculum Board:

"For questions about specific curricula and their relationship to classical education..."

And here's the forum description for the Parent's Forum General Board:

"For general questions about classical education methods, teaching techniques, readiness,..."

So again... I'm not getting it... <shrugs shoulders>

I'm really not trying to run anyone off the board. Truly, I'm not. But I don't really understand it, that's all. But I certainly stand by your right to be here, regardless of my misunderstanding of it.


I am trying to think how to word this. I don't want to sound snarky, I don't want to be discouraging to anybody. I do think your post is worth responding to though.

I can see why those of us who really like WTM but struggle to implement all aspects of it stay here. After all, WTM ruined our lives! :D We know too much to go back to the other way and we know too little to do it the way we really want to!!! So we hang out here and keep trying to do a better job than we did last year.

I also understand why people who have graduated their homeschoolers come here. We need those people, we need to be able to pick their brains! I am so glad that they do not turn their backs on us and go on with their lives!! (Okay, I don't mean to imply that they can't go on with their lives, but I appreciate that they visit here and let us glean from their wisdom and experience)

I understand why people who have children in other school settings, but are considering homeschooling or a return to homeschooling would be here.

I admit that I do not understand why people who don't care for classical education are here. I have seen people come to these boards for years and actually discourage people from following a classical methodology. :confused:

I also do not understand why people who have put their kids in a different school setting and are very pleased and happy with their choices choose this forum.

As Seinfeld would say "Not that there is anything wrong with that!" :rolleyes:

But you are not alone in your pondering of the whys.

[OceanBreeze]

I also do not understand why people who have put their kids in a different school setting and are very pleased and happy with their choices choose this forum.

Comments like these make me wonder why I'm here as well.

Let's not forget, we're all battling the procrustean public education system and we should be careful not to replace it with our own beds. This is a forum for learning and sharing, whatever our own personal choices are.

Jenelle

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I understand why people who have children in other school settings, but are considering homeschooling or a return to homeschooling would be here.

I admit that I do not understand why people who don't care for classical education are here. I have seen people come to these boards for years and actually discourage people from following a classical methodology. :confused:

I also do not understand why people who have put their kids in a different school setting and are very pleased and happy with their choices choose this forum.

As Seinfeld would say "Not that there is anything wrong with that!" :rolleyes:

But you are not alone in your pondering of the whys.

Well, you know, I have my dd (and had my ds, not so very long ago) in a different school setting. I chose (deliberately, not in a "I give up" sort of way -- not that there's anything wrong with *that*, lol) to finish her homeschooling in 8th grade. We finished the course that I set out to accomplish with her.

And I may never go back to homeschooling. Though I prefer to, if possible.

We're sooooo happy with our schooling choice.

But I'm still here. I think sometimes, "Where else would I be?"

Seriously. I cannot for the life of me imagine another place I'd fit in better or be able to contribute (albeit in a limited way on the high school and self-education forum) more freely.

I can't figure out why someone would discourage classical education and post here. Unless it would be to encourage others that classical isn't one size fits all, and that there are other options that might "fit" the family better? I dunno. But it's sort of trollish, IMO, to be a guest on a classical ed board and actively lobby against the method all the time.

Otherwise, I think we're mostly here because we feel like we fit here for some reason or another. And it might not be one of those reasons that's intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.

[Kelli in TN]

And I may never go back to homeschooling. Though I prefer to, if possible.

We're sooooo happy with our schooling choice.

But I'm still here. I think sometimes, "Where else would I be?"

Seriously. I cannot for the life of me imagine another place I'd fit in better or be able to contribute (albeit in a limited way on the high school and self-education forum) more freely.

I can't figure out why someone would discourage classical education and post here. Unless it would be to encourage others that classical isn't one size fits all, and that there are other options that might "fit" the family better? I dunno. But it's sort of trollish, IMO, to be a guest on a classical ed board and actively lobby against the method all the time.
.

I mean no harm. I am sorry. I think I am having an overemotional response to a thread on another board on this forum, and remembering threads in the past that went sour and did I mention that it is that time of month?

I am just going to go hide from my kids and eat chocolate chips straight from that bag now. I think I will also avoid posting until my hormones stabilize a bit.:rolleyes:

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I mean no harm. I am sorry. I think I am having an overemotional response to a thread on another board on this forum, and remembering threads in the past that went sour and did I mention that it is that time of month?

I am just going to go hide from my kids and eat chocolate chips straight from that bag now. I think I will also avoid posting until my hormones stabilize a bit.:rolleyes:

Harm? Girl, you'd have to work a darn sight harder if you're thinking anything you could ever say would hurt my feelings. Not even close. You have a great deal of "credit" in my "she's just chattin' with me" bank.

No, I was just musing about where I fit in the grand scheme of Board. And I think possibly I sounded hurt or snarly. I wasn't. But you know why I'm here, right?

Right?

(And since you do, could you clue me in? :D)

[Rhondabee]

I can see why those of us who really like WTM but struggle to implement all aspects of it stay here. After all, WTM ruined our lives! We know too much to go back to the other way and we know too little to do it the way we really want to!!! So we hang out here and keep trying to do a better job than we did last year.

Yes, I do in some ways feel like WTM has ruined my life!!! ;) How awful to realize how completely inadequate my own education was.

And yet, I still struggle to feel like I'm making good educational choices for my kids when the "Abeka" kids call mine at 10:00 am every morning FINISHED WITH SCHOOL!!! And, I have to admit, they'll probably support themselves and their families just fine.

It is hard to remember that vision I have glimpsed here from certain posters that education isn't about financial success, but about building a life. I guess that's why I come *here*, because this is the only place that feeds that vision.

You just expressed it so well!
:)

[dragons in the flower bed]

I was interested in a discussion about whether TWTM boards, at least the academic ones such as the K-8 boards, should be smaller because there was a greater percentage of WTM users there, or broader, where using TWTM didn't matter.

I just wish "rigor" hadn't been turned into a dirty word the past few days!

Ah, I see.

When I first saw this thread, I thought, "Oh, c'mon, we're all trying our best and have more in common than not . . . " But then, just today, a couple of folks posted asking for advice and there were a whole bunch of, "just relax, let the kids play, make it easier for them, they have to enjoy it," sort of answers. To my great surprise, it did make me uncomfortable, not because they're wrong, but because this is where I come so I won't get those sort of answers. I don't need help relaxing; I'm lazy. I need help pushing myself and my kids.

That said, life on the internet moves fast and organically. I'm pretty sure that if this place gets over run with relaxed homeschoolers, the draconian homeschoolers will start a forum elsewhere and there will be a natural divide.

[Happy]

Yes, I realize I'm resurrecting a dead horse and beating it again...

At the risk of gaining negative "reputation points" (whatever those are...)

I guess I'm still missing something, because I still don't get why someone who isn't doing WTM or classical, or has never even read the book, would post here.

Here's what the forum description says for the Parent's Forum K-8 Curriculum Board:

"For questions about specific curricula and their relationship to classical education..."

And here's the forum description for the Parent's Forum General Board:

"For general questions about classical education methods, teaching techniques, readiness,..."

So again... I'm not getting it... <shrugs shoulders>

I'm really not trying to run anyone off the board. Truly, I'm not. But I don't really understand it, that's all. But I certainly stand by your right to be here, regardless of my misunderstanding of it.


I started homeschooling (with a burned out teenager) as a relaxed 'find the passion' kind of mom. When he didn't 'find' the spark of passion, I changed curriculums. I changed methods. I changed whatever I could to make school more 'fun' 'engaging' or 'interesting.'

What I've learned in the years since is that I should have required more. He would have hated it, but he would have learned more. Lots more. The biggest lesson being sometimes you've just got to muscle through the tough stuff.

With my second and last son, I choose differently. I come to this board to learn about rigor and demanding academics. About asking more than my son thinks he should have to give. ;) So I've gone from being a relaxed, eclectic, nearly unschooler to a tough minded, academically, demanding type homeschooler.

I come here to learn that it CAN be done.

I'll never be a totally classical educator, but I'm way closer now than I was five years ago. If only I could start all over with my guys........

[8FillTheHeart]

I don't homeschool the WTM way. My classical bent is more from the Ignatian philosophy, not the WTM (classical education has existed for centuries. ;)) I have read the WTM, but I am also very confident about finding my own way with each of my children. I am currently posting on the high school board and I am not even homeschooling a high schooler this yr. I sent my current high schooler to school. :eek:

Why do I post here?? I know very few homeschoolers that take education as seriously as I do. Most sort of go along doing this and that and are content with the mediocre. I am not. I push my kids to accomplish the most difficult topics/assignments they can. I don't currently have a high schooler, but I have graduated one who is doing quite well in college. I have 5 more coming up, one is an 8th grader. High school is always there in the back of my mind.

The women on this board are the most intelligent, amusing, and friendly women to hang around (ok....no offense dads.....you are pretty awesome too!) The advice they offer is pretty much on target all the time. I don't happen to know any women quite like them IRL (except for Jane.....she is even more thoughtful and intelligent in person!!! :) )

I don't believe that the WTM is the sole way to achieve the same goal. I am extremely indebted to SWB for this board. I recommend the WTM to friends that are floundering and need someone to provide a road map on what is a solid education. I sure like spending time here even though my own homeschool reflects my POV of education and not WTM.

[Jane in NC]

The women on this board are the most intelligent, amusing, and friendly women to hang around (ok....no offense dads.....you are pretty awesome too!) The advice they offer is pretty much on target all the time. I don't happen to know any women quite like them IRL (except for Jane.....she is even more thoughtful and intelligent in person!!! :) )



Aw shucks. Hoping to see you again this summer!

Jane (who greatly appreciates her WTM friends and wishes that we could get together for coffee on a weekly basis)

[SheWhoWaits]

Anyone here doing Caesar the sophomore year and Virgil and Xenophon the junior? I'd love to read through some threads on how that's going.
I picked up an old 1960s Latin textbook at our Friends of the Library bookstore. I am able to use it without a teacher's guide because I studied Latin in college. (Yes, long before I had kids, I knew that classical education was the best.) It moves really fast. My son has learned all the endings for the first 4 declensions of nouns, the first 3 conjugations of verbs in all tenses and voices, and all moods except subjunctive, and he is now learning pronouns. Meanwhile his public school friends who take Latin have not even completed learning all the cases for the first declension of nouns. Yes, we will read Caesar next year. But after that, I'll allow him to switch to modern languages. He wants to learn French and Russian. I can teach him French, but he'll be taking Russian at the community college.

[Colleen]

nt

[Colleen]

Laura, you said:

"(T)he second part of the question was a legitimate concern to me and some others: where are the classical homeschoolers?"

My belated response is an echo of what others have said or implied: What constitutes "classical" homeschooling? I've never considered TWTM the epitome of a classical education ~ which for me is well and good, given my lack of desire to implement such a thing. Susan's and Jessie's knowledge and encouragement are valuable to me, however, and I've long relied upon TWTM as a source book. Not an instruction manual, but an excellent reference.

"I was just trying to see what might happen if I asked a question like that."

So how do you feel about what happened? Has this discussion encouraged you? discouraged you? or....?

"I think both the rigorous and the (choosing words carefully here) more accessible are valuable depending on how much a person can handle. I just wish "rigor" hadn't been turned into a dirty word the past few days!"

Yes, it is difficult if not impossible to choose appropriate words there ~ because it gets dangerously close to misunderstood, inaccurate labeling. Is my friend Julie Bogart's (Bravewriter author/owner) eclectic, not-particularly-"classical" style some how "less than"? Many who consider themselves poster children for "rigorous" academics would likely say so. But on what basis? And why is not-ueber-classical education allegedly more accessible, anyway?

I'm so not into labels. I do understand the basis for your question, and I absolutely agree that we should encourag one another to aim higher rather than settle for less. I think, though, that we have to be wary of assuming that what's better for us is better for everyone, and to remember that "different" is not necessarily on par with "less".

[Eliana]

When I first started visiting TWTM forums however many years ago I was at once impressed by the dedication of moms to the classical homeschooling method and academic rigor.

<snip>

I'm glad there's a big crowd here. I've learned from so many of you and I do like it here. I only lament that this isn't a classical education board anymore, ...the whole spirit of the system seems to have left.


Laura,

I remember the moment (some time back) that I realized the boards had changed. ...and I felt very out of place. So out of place that I left the boards for over a year; I didn't feel that I really had anything to add here.

In fact, I felt that some of the things I advocated for most strongly were making others feel inadequate and it was so painful a perception that I still avoid certain topics... and there I things I would no longer say here, or would phrase very differently.


Yes, the original spirit has changed to something almost unrecognizable, and I too have grieved a little for that, but the thing which hasn't changed is the graciousness, caring, and goodwill. The mutual respect and consideration so often demonstrated here is really beautiful and the diversity of approaches and experiences is incredible - and often inspiring.


And, I must say, both classical homeschooling and academic rigor mean very different things to different people!

I would describe myself a highly committed to both, but the means I use to achieve those ends wouldn't necessarily match someone else's definition of a rigorous approach. (Especially with my son!)

My goals are almost identical for what I want to give each of my children, and my standards for the quality of the content are, imho, very high. ...but the ways my kids get there aren't always standard.

I also want to say that rigorous is, frankly, a relative term, and cannot be fairly judged by, for example, textbook choice. Imho, rigor is about setting high goals, but high relative to the background and abilities of the student and, again frankly, the family. That my eldest read the Iliad in its entirety when she was 9 or 10, doesn't say anything about the rigor of our program, nor does the age of my son when he started algebra... the rigor lies in me ensuring that each child is being challenged to do his/her best at working towards our family's educational goals.

I have too many different thoughts, and not enough clarity or alertness to express any of them well right now, so I will stop typing!

Thank you, Laura, for sharing your reactions (and so much more articulately than I did when I first felt this way!). I think this is a valuable discussion to have.

[Eliana]

When I first saw this thread, I thought, "Oh, c'mon, we're all trying our best and have more in common than not . . . " But then, just today, a couple of folks posted asking for advice and there were a whole bunch of, "just relax, let the kids play, make it easier for them, they have to enjoy it," sort of answers. To my great surprise, it did make me uncomfortable, not because they're wrong, but because this is where I come so I won't get those sort of answers. I don't need help relaxing; I'm lazy. I need help pushing myself and my kids.


I see what you're saying, but I have two very strong reactions.

1) Some people do need help, not necessarily to relax, but to to be themselves. I don't think any of us will get very far trying to force ourselves into a mold that doesn't fit. And, all too often, people tend to throw out the baby with the bathwater, and need encouragement to find other ways of meeting their goals.

2) Relaxed and rigorous are not mutually exclusive. We don't have to abandon joy, delight, and spontaneity to achieve the goals of a classical education... especially for the elementary years. Also, relaxed isn't necessarily any less work than rigorous, it is just a different kind of work. Some families do best with a 'pushing' approach - often along with clear schedules and checklists - other do better with a 'leading' approach.

Personally, I'm one of the latter. I don't push my kids, and I don't intend to. I have nurtured a passion for learning and helped them build the skills to follow that passion. And I don't think the education my children are getting is any less rigorous than if we had taken a more standard approach to rigor - frankly, I think it is more so. [Since rigor can mean such different things to different people, let me give my eldest (14.5) as an example: she is in her second year of classes at a local (highly regarded) community college acing a biology class (one intended for science majors, more than half the class is pre-med), she intends to start calculus there in the fall, she is well read and reads and discusses great works of literature with ease and insight... and she has a drive to learn and the discipline to challenge herself, and a gratifyingly high set of academic standards.)

Anyway... this was only tangentially related to what you actually said - and I hope it doesn't come across as discouraging the 'pushing' approach! We each need to chose the means to our ends which work best for our children, ourselves, and our families as a whole!

Warmly,

Eliana

[SheWhoWaits]

Wow. Laura. I think I understand your point, and your wish for some more academic rigor, but I think WTM has grown (esp with the new boards) to encompass a larger variety of ways to teach and learn. And I don't think any of us, old or new, have the monopoly on academic rigor. "Academic Rigor" is different for everyone, as has been pointed out so eloquently in previous posts.

Speaking for myself, WTM has always been the heart of what I wanted to teach and provided a beautiful basis for my beginning path of homeschooling. But my beliefs in teaching and learning have veered away from a "strict" WTM method. I will not be hemmed in by the label of "classical" or any other method that doesn't fully work for us, or that I don't fully believe in. Does that mean I don't need the boards because parts of it don't work for me? Not at all. As previously mentioned, we all come to this homeschooling journey for different reasons, and that effects our curriculum, and our goals.

You mention "If a kid doesn't like math, simply switch to an easier program." I would suggest, not "easier", but different. "History phobia? Pick a prepackaged curriculum that doesn't demand much." While I can not keep up with every post by a long shot, I don't think I have ever seen this advocated. However, I believe in a more "child-led" education. If a child sincerely hates a particular subject, I believe in the flexibility of change. Not "dropping" a subject, but I shall not, and will not, mimic a school room situation of dreading and hating subjects and classes for the WTM "ideal" whatever that may mean to a person individually. That would be MY invested ideal, not my childs education that I have at heart.
What TWTM did for me was set me free from following the public school curriculum. I couldn't and don't follow it very closely because I started homeschooling when my kids were in 4th and 5th grade and they've each been back in the public school at least once since then. But I had a classical education myself, in college, because I wanted one. TWTM made me realize that what was good for me was also good for my kids. So we do Latin and logic and great books, but I don't necessarily use the books SWB recommends, and I don't follow the 4 year cycle for history very closely because of our erratic hs journey. This year we're focusing on a one year survey of church history, using Sonlight 200 as a spine, but not following it to the letter either. I just hope we can get through the 4 year cycle at least once in our homeschooling years. My 13 yo has done medieval and is now learning early modern. We are doing the early modern strictly as a read aloud/historical fiction/great books approach since his main history work is the church history. My 15 yo has studied ancient history at the public school as well as digging into it on his own because he enjoyed what he learned at the public school, and medieval at home, but we didn't finish the time period. The problem is that we all 3 love history so much that the survey approach just bogs down. We could spend an entire year studying one century and we'd all be happy. But I want them to have a better rounded education than that. So I'd say our homeschool is rigorous by anyone's standards, but we don't follow WTM very closely.

[SheWhoWaits]

An interesting thing happened on the journey. I had always viewed my son as a natural biologist with an engineering bent. Between his Montessori education and TWTM, he has developed a passion for history. He is not the best Latin student, but enjoys it. If we had placed more emphasis on math and science, we may not have discovered these interests.

Interesting. Almost the same thing happened to us. My oldest always loved math and science, so I designed a very rigorous program for him. He's taking Precalc at our community college at 15! Then he spent a year (last year) taking classes at the Math and Science center, a local high school which is very intensive in math and science. The only select 75 out of 300 applicants every year. His paper for biology last year was on the epigenetics of autism. Huh? Glad he had to do it not me. But after a year there, he began to hate math and science. Now he wants to major in music and literature. I NEVER would have guessed that he would take that path. Music, maybe, but I was sure he would be an engineer. It just goes to show you never know what your kids will get into next.

[Deece in MN]

Interesting. Almost the same thing happened to us. My oldest always loved math and science, so I designed a very rigorous program for him. He's taking Precalc at our community college at 15! Then he spent a year (last year) taking classes at the Math and Science center, a local high school which is very intensive in math and science. The only select 75 out of 300 applicants every year. His paper for biology last year was on the epigenetics of autism. Huh? Glad he had to do it not me. But after a year there, he began to hate math and science. Now he wants to major in music and literature. I NEVER would have guessed that he would take that path. Music, maybe, but I was sure he would be an engineer. It just goes to show you never know what your kids will get into next.


I hope this comes across in the spirit it is meant and I am not picking on you, it is just that your post sparked the thought.

I don't think it is surprising that interests change in the way you described. I think sometimes we put too much emphasis on one or two focus areas (usually a childs "favorite" subject) so that some other subjects/areas get little or no attention. I think this focus is not good because it burns a child out on those subjects. A balance needs to be maintained in all areas. If a child loves history, of course make sure that passion is supported, but we also need to make sure other areas are still emphasized. This will support a well-rounded education and give opportunities to make connections between the favored subject(s) and other areas and keep the favored subject in a place where the child is getting enough to maintain the passion, but not too much that they burn out on it and no longer enjoy the subject.

I know people who emphasize sports over academics and vice versa. I think we need to be careful about jumping on this bandwagon of over supporting passions. There is a balance in everything and I think we need to keep that in mind.

[SheWhoWaits]

I am going to have to explain the difference between books and booKs to her.:D Okay, I've been away from the board for a while (busy with real life) and I don't get that one. Could you explain it to ME?

[Karin]

Okay, I've been away from the board for a while (busy with real life) and I don't get that one. Could you explain it to ME?

books are something you read. booKs are anatomical.

[SheWhoWaits]

I hope this comes across in the spirit it is meant and I am not picking on you, it is just that your post sparked the thought.

I don't think it is surprising that interests change in the way you described. I think sometimes we put too much emphasis on one or two focus areas (usually a childs "favorite" subject) so that some other subjects/areas get little or no attention. I think this focus is not good because it burns a child out on those subjects.
I'm sure you didn't mean to be mean. I did what I thought was best for my son, and I was surprised, but not necessarily disappointed by the change. I want my kids to choose a career that they will enjoy. If they do that, they will be fulfilled and I'll feel like I did my job. As I wrote that post, I thought of just what you said. Sometimes the act of communicating things to others helps us understand them better. Maybe someone here can learn from my mistake (if it was one).

[Laura K (NC)]

So how do you feel about what happened? Has this discussion encouraged you? discouraged you? or....?

I've been encouraged. It was good to see the hard-core folks who stuck with their high schoolers as devotedly as they did when they were teaching with Prima Latina and dictation out of Aesop's Fables[/a]. I'm very encouraged indeed to have added 4 more blogs of homeschoolers who do various versions of "classical" to my bloglines.com list. I'm renewed to try harder with my sons, especially my high schooler, and not just copy the NC standard course of study. Yes, this has been a good thread.

"I think both the rigorous and the (choosing words carefully here) more accessible are valuable depending on how much a person can handle. I just wish "rigor" hadn't been turned into a dirty word the past few days!"

I'm so not into labels. I do understand the basis for your question, and I absolutely agree that we should encourag one another to aim higher rather than settle for less. I think, though, that we have to be wary of assuming that what's better for us is better for everyone, and to remember that "different" is not necessarily on par with "less".[/COLOR][/FONT]

I don't know how many times I'm going to have to refute the idea that my intent was to turn everyone here into a homeschooler who uses WTM to the letter. Why are classical homeschoolers not allowed to search and rescue their own without making everyone else feel bad about themselves? For me, different [i]is less, just like a different religion for me is less. I'm not saying it's less for you or for anyone else. It may be best for someone else to use a public school, or a school-in-a-box, or radical unschooling, or worksheets and textbooks for every class. It's not best for me. I'm not concerned about what is best for anyone else. If I was, I'd be visiting different boards. There's not a homeschooler (heh, or public schooler) here who doesn't believe what she (or he) is doing, or intending to do, isn't best, and has chosen her own option because the other options are somewhat "less." If there is such a homeschooler, I would probably believe they are confused and need to adopt a more concrete educational philosophy. I think labels and classifications are very natural and necessary to human beings and need not imply prejudice.

[Plaid Dad]

If there is such a homeschooler, I would probably believe they are confused and need to adopt a more concrete educational philosophy. I think labels and classifications are very natural and necessary to human beings and need not imply prejudice.

Laura, I'm out of rep for the day, or I would have given you some for this quote alone. I don't think anyone here should feel she or he has to apologize for setting and maintaining high standards or for having a consistent educational philosophy. We all do the best we can for our children. The best (as we understand it) we can (at this moment in our lives) for our children (and no one else's). If I didn't think that classical education were the best for my child, I'd be doing something else, would I not? :)

[Kelli in TN]

I don't know how many times I'm going to have to refute the idea that my intent was to turn everyone here into a homeschooler who uses WTM to the letter. Why are classical homeschoolers not allowed to search and rescue their own without making everyone else feel bad about themselves? For me, different is less, just like a different religion for me is less. .


I am going to zero in on this. I do believe that we ought to be able to hold a certain standard on these boards without people falling to pieces about it. Once on my blog I suggested that I sometimes post on a "message board visited primarily by homeschoolers of a classical bent" and someone took great offense at this. The person argued with me, on my blog, that this is not a message board for classical homeschoolers. And I can agree that it is intended for homeschoolers and afterschoolers, I think it is not a stretch to say the people who pay the bills for this place promote a classical approach to education. I cannot understand why anyone is bothered by that.

So yes, classical homeschoolers should be allowed to search and rescue one another without folks on different paths getting their feelings hurt.

I am so far from where I want to be as a homeschool mom, but if we did not have this place to "flesh out" all that SWB and JW taught us with WTM, I would be even further from where I want to be. It's like the math discussions.
I simply cannot do math the way many on here suggest. But I am not going to get my feelings hurt because TT is not well liked. I am going to listen to the warnings about it and add in Aleks for good measure. I refuse to let people holding up a high standard offend me. After all, I come here to listen in on conversations between people with high standards!!!

[Eliana]

For me, different is less, just like a different religion for me is less. I'm not saying it's less for you or for anyone else.

You've put it so perfectly, thank you!

That's exactly how I feel about our standards...

I keep trying to type some more substantiative responses, but they keep coming out either too wishy-washy to avoid stepping on toes or too strident...

So I will, for once, be brief: :iagree:

[Myrtle]

Laura,

I'm watching this thread grow and and I am wondering how it came to be that a thread about classical education on a forum for classical education needs to be defended or clarified.

Secondly, on a message board where tact is king we shy away from certain subjects so as not to alienate other posters, risk neg reps, or chance an off topic digression about how someone else is offended and it is refreshing to read a post where someone gets really excited about the subject they are discussing.

I can tell by your word choice and tone that this really means something to you personally. You are not out there "me-tooing" your peers and you haven't censored yourself to the point of ceasing to make meaningful adult conversation.

If the highest priority on a message board is sugar coating every last word and playing such nice-nice with each other so that absolutely every last "opinion" and thought must be allowed to go unquestioned lest someone be offended then the board becomes about therapy, self-esteem, or socialization--a reflection of some of the very things that I do not like about public education.

While my intention is not to "make friends" on message boards, it certainly should be no surprise that after we've censored ourselves and ceased to talk about those hot topics, (as if the study of Latin or Greek is that contentious!), potentially offensive to someone, we wonder why we never feel really close to anyone and we speculate on how it is that we are the only ones attempting these particular educational goals. On a board with thousands of registered participants we feel isolated and alone.

As a result of this thread I've been thinking about how much more of an effort I need to take to get the Latin done the way that I know it needs to get done. There was a comment left on a blog not so long ago that I laughed at and then immediately worried that it might apply to me, "There are two ways that students think they can learn (topic): One way is to do the work and learn the topic, the other way is to come up with lots of good excuses why they didn't learn the topic. But there is no either/or, there is only number one."

And so I need spend more time figuring out how to overcome the difficulties with the Latin and less time whining in my head about all my excuses.

[Colleen]

I don't think anyone here should feel she or he has to apologize for setting and maintaining high standards or for having a consistent educational philosophy.

I don't think so, either.

We all do the best we can for our children. The best (as we understand it) we can (at this moment in our lives) for our children (and no one else's).

Yes. Your emphases are important.

If I didn't think that classical education were the best for my child, I'd be doing something else, would I not?

Maybe or maybe not. I imagine there are times when people would prefer to do "X (uppercase)" but for a variety of reasons have to modify for the time being and do "x (lowercase)".

[Colleen]

I do believe that we ought to be able to hold a certain standard on these boards without people falling to pieces about it...So yes, classical homeschoolers should be allowed to search and rescue one another without folks on different paths getting their feelings hurt.

Kelli, just to clarify, I do agree with you. I think, though, that we can do that without asserting a holier-than-thou stance. It is my opinion that some of the comments in this thread fell short in that regard, thus my earlier post.

[Colleen]

I've been encouraged...Yes, this has been a good thread.

This was a good discussion, I agree!

Why are classical homeschoolers not allowed to search and rescue their own without making everyone else feel bad about themselves?

I think it's possible to engage in that "search and rescue" without assuming the tone of smug superiority that I sensed in portions of this discussion. Of course, "I sensed" underscores the subjectivity in my comment. This is merely my interpretation.

For me, different is less, just like a different religion for me is less.

I hear you. I would not put education on the same par as faith, but I do understand your underlying point.

There's not a homeschooler (heh, or public schooler) here who doesn't believe what she (or he) is doing, or intending to do, isn't best, and has chosen her own option because the other options are somewhat "less." If there is such a homeschooler, I would probably believe they are confused and need to adopt a more concrete educational philosophy.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on that score.:)

[readwithem]

T
I am comfortable with folks fine-tuning the methodology. What makes me uneasy are the people who openly state that they don't care for the method or the author, and I have to wonder why they choose this forum to visit?:confused:

Totally agree.

[readwithem]

I
I think I will like this better in the high school years; these junior-high years seem to be pretty much about transitioning from being a kid to being a young man, about learning how to handle larger work loads, and they frankly aren't as much fun. But I think we will find our way to the other side, back to the interesting conversations, and that's good. To tell the truth, when we get to DO that stuff, I like this homeschooling a lot.

It kind of freaks me out that I have a rising 8th grader on my hands, though. When did THAT happen?


I remember thinking that even if we just "maintained" (in middle school) we were still better off at home. Just last night both dh and I said how much we hated 7th grade. Sigh.

[Karin]

Laura,


And so I need spend more time figuring out how to overcome the difficulties with the Latin and less time whining in my head about all my excuses.

For me, this thread is getting me back on track with my eldest's history, which has been minimally done for the past couple of years to focus on other things. When I presented my recent plan for next year (SWB's highschool/self-education history book as a spine, and using the Bible, Josephus, Ussher, Snorri Sturluson and that famous Greek historian whose name slips my mind) doing comparative history along with other readings (some ancients, some modern with different scientific view points for certain historical things, etc) she didn't balk at all. This is a girl who "hates" history.

[BizyPenguin]

TWTM really inspires me even though I do not homeschool the WTM way. I, too, view the book as an excellent resource. After finding the book at the library many years ago, I was thrilled that some very intelligent person had done the work for me with regard to selecting curricula. I was overwhelmed with all of the choices out there. As time went on, however, I realized that some of the top picks were not good fits for my ds. I also realized that the WTM method was not going to work with my ADHD child. I then latched on to the few suggestions, recommendations, and ideas that I *did* like and that were very do-able for us...including using the SOTW history books. When the revised edition hit the book stores, I made it a point to purchase it. Why? Because even though I did not consider the WTM to be my method of homeschooling, this book happens to be one of the most inspirational homeschooling books out there. I like picking it up every so often and reading a few chapters to see if there's anything new I can glean from it. It sits horozontially on the top of my bookshelf in our living room right under a small world globe. I love the way it looks there and I won't ever sell it. A few months ago, while at the grocery store in the early afternoon, a woman asked my ds why he wasn't in school. He replied that he homeschooled and we both gave her a nice smile. That lady followed me to my car and asked me if I could tell her a little more about homeschooling, because her child was soon to start school and she was not happy about the school system. After giving her my phone number and email address, I told her to go to the library and check out TWTM by SWB and JW. I told her that there were other good homeschooling books out there, but that this one was the most inspirational one I have found. It's funny, this is the first post I've made since late last week. There have been some things that have bothered me here lately and I had considered not posting here anymore. I felt like maybe I just didn't fit in, but I've missed this forum and all that the moms and dads here have to offer----no matter how closely they follow the WTM...And after stumbling upon this thread, and reading the responses of Momof7, Maria of Electically Yours, and Colleen, I've changed my mind. Thank you ladies!

[Nan in Mass]

Eliana - I'm glad you're back!

[Christy B]

I don't think so, either.



Yes. Your emphases are important.



Maybe or maybe not. I imagine there are times when people would prefer to do "X (uppercase)" but for a variety of reasons have to modify for the time being and do "x (lowercase)".


Colleen, you say "I imagine there are times when people . . . have to modify for the time being and do "x".

This is true -- this is why I am "here", even though I am not a classical homeschooler. I would prefer to be a classical homeschooler. For many reasons, it has never worked for our family.

Now, we are at a place where I would prefer to be a homeschooler, period. And again, for many reasons, it is no longer working for our family. We are preparing to enroll our oldest in a local Christian school.

In my heart, I am a homeschooler. In my preferences, I am a classical homeschooler. Sometimes we can choose our reality, sometimes it is forced upon us.

And I want to stay here, on these boards, because here is where I find people who challenge me, inspire me, encourage me, and broaden my horizons. Sometimes it has to do with homeschooling, often it does not.

Life doesn't always turn out the way we want it. Giving up homeschooling is one of the hardest things I've done. To think that I would have to give up the "friends" that I have here would really bite.

[Tokyomarie]

:grouphug: for Christy! I can appreciate what you're feeling right now. I haven't been exactly there, but I had 9 years of afterschooling before bringing my children home full-time. Hold onto the fact that as one who is a homeschooler at heart you are equipped to keep your eyes and ears out for what your daughter will be learning and experiencing. Stay connected to her learning in whatever way works out best.

During the time I afterschooled, I became increasingly involved with not only what I was teaching them at home, but aware and involved in their education at school. Sometimes that meant I moved to intervene in a situation, which school staff didn't always understand or appreciate at first. I stayed in touch and respectfully brought up my concerns and potential solutions and my daughters had a better educational experience because I stayed aware.

Colleen, you say "I imagine there are times when people . . . have to modify for the time being and do "x".

This is true -- this is why I am "here", even though I am not a classical homeschooler. I would prefer to be a classical homeschooler. For many reasons, it has never worked for our family.

Now, we are at a place where I would prefer to be a homeschooler, period. And again, for many reasons, it is no longer working for our family. We are preparing to enroll our oldest in a local Christian school.

In my heart, I am a homeschooler. In my preferences, I am a classical homeschooler. Sometimes we can choose our reality, sometimes it is forced upon us.

And I want to stay here, on these boards, because here is where I find people who challenge me, inspire me, encourage me, and broaden my horizons. Sometimes it has to do with homeschooling, often it does not.

Life doesn't always turn out the way we want it. Giving up homeschooling is one of the hardest things I've done. To think that I would have to give up the "friends" that I have here would really bite.

[Nan in Mass]

Hugs, too.

[Christy B]

Thanks, Marie and Nan. I took my girls to the school today for their visit -- it was good to come home and find some virtual hugs. :grouphug: I am encouraged at the warm welcome they received and I think they are going to have a very good day. I'm looking forward to picking them up this afternoon and doing the whole "milk and cookies" thing. It is a comfort to know that if we change our minds -- if this school experiment takes a bad turn -- I can (and will) bring them back home. And I can come here and find all kinds of help if we return to homeschooling. It is a blessing to have choices.

I do want to point out -- I did NOT feel that the original post was intended in any way to make me (or others in my situation) feel unwelcome here. It was a legitimate and thought-provoking question and I enjoyed reading all of the responses. My post was simply to add to the train of thought that several had contributed to, as to why this board attracts a wider variety of teaching styles, and why some folks who are not currently homeschooling still like to "hang out". I wanted to make that clear, I hope my post did not sound defensive.

Along those lines, I do think that I will still have a contribution to make to the discussions on these boards. If nothing else, I can see where I made some significant mistakes in homeschooling, and if others can benefit from some lessons I learned the hard way, hopefully it would make their path straighter (ha, note I did not say EASIER!) than mine.

Well, I'm off to declutter a certain little girl's closet, while she is conveniently out of the house. There could definitely be some advantages to school, right?;)

[Plaid Dad]

Colleen, you say "I imagine there are times when people . . . have to modify for the time being and do "x".

This is true -- this is why I am "here", even though I am not a classical homeschooler. I would prefer to be a classical homeschooler. For many reasons, it has never worked for our family.

I can understand this, and as I said much earlier in the thread, I appreciate that this forum is a big tent. I also understand the desire for focused support. I get that support from a mailing list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LatinClassicalEd/) for people who do "my kind of classical," complete with Latin, Greek, and all that jazz, and I just ignore the many, many threads here that deal with curricula that don't fit my educational philosophy, religious perspective, etc.

[Annabel Lee]

Bumping this up to share w/ those who weren't around when it was written. It's old, but it's good.

[Teachin'Mine]

And although it is not apparent from that quote and Simmons makes this clear in the rest of the book, that while the study of Latin and Greek is necessary, it is not sufficient to making an education a classical education. For example, the local public high schools where I live all offer Latin to high school students but it's not a "classical education." For example, the following lists the classical course of study in a Boston high school about mid 19th century,

http://books.google.com/books?id=oosVAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA101&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=qShjs2-CG8vtDmh5lAwd4VgJ-k8&ci=127,385,733,729&edge=1

Anyone here doing Caesar the sophomore year and Virgil and Xenophon the junior? I'd love to read through some threads on how that's going.

We dropped Latin this year but will definitely pick it back up again next. I downloaded Xenophon from textkit.com with the best of intentions of making that my goal in high school. For right now I've been getting my classical education fix from reading the blogs of classicists and high school Latin teachers.

Carry on.

That list of subjects from a "classical" course of study is interesting. They delved deeply into Latin and Greek, but where's the science, history (other than ancient), and other classes important to a modern day well rounded education? My dd is taking Latin, but I wouldn't consider her course of study to be classical in the way mentioned in this thread. It is classical in the sense that it is rigorous and textbook based (as opposed to audio-visual). A true classical education would have been torture for her, even though she was exposed to the ancients and other aspects very early in our home schooling. Each student is unique and has different interests and ways of learning.

This board is amazing to me. It may not be what it was years ago, but then again, I probably wouldn't find it helpful if it was what it was years ago. :) I think there's a pretty good balance between encouraging others to stay the rigorous course, or make it even more so, and providing supportive help to those who need to make accommodations for their students or their family life. IMO there is no one right way, and we each have to discern for ourselves what's best. I've found that the more information available, the more informed of a decision I can make on various schooling options. I learn from everyone's input here. :)

Laura and the others who want more classical conversation here, I hope that you will be contributing and sharing your perspective and experiences with us. That's how we learn and can encourage each other.

After writing all this, I just saw the date of the original thread, but I'm glad it was given a bump because it is interesting. :)

[flyingiguana]

Thanks for bumping this up. It's interesting.

In my own mind, I've had to decide that there really is a difference between a classical education and a rigorous one, even though the terms are sometimes used interchangeably. A classical education will include ancient languages, for example (among other things) and studying these will require a lot of work. But if I want my kids to have a rigorous education, is only important that I require a lot of work out of them? Or that they learn things that will be useful for them in what they choose to do? In other words, is it worth doing Latin solely for the reason that it's hard? Or is it better to choose something hard (like calculus) that a science oriented student would find a lot more useful?

I've decided I am interested in rigorous more than classical. If ancient languages are interesting to my kids, or if they see they will be useful in the future, then, sure, we might do an education that's more strictly classical. If not, we'll just settle for rigorous.

And I'm not even interested in rigorous unless it's actually sticking. The original post several years back was bemoaning people giving "permission" to do easier math or whatnot. I think it's just fine to step back and do a less rigorous math or whatever if it means that the student will actually get what they're being taught, rather than letting it go by in a difficult whoosh and getting nothing.


Thought I'd post just so us newbies can have our say.

[FaithManor]

We neo-classically educate here and have very strict standards. I just don't post an awful lot about it other than to help those with grading and transcript questions, etc. because we've already graduated one and since we've been there done that on something that seems daunting to many, I don't mind posting.

But, SWB is right....it isn't going to be the same for everyone and yet can still be very much a classical education. One of the best aspects of homeschooling is allowing our kids to develop that special niche and then run with it. Ours has been almost across the board science....let me tell you....most of you have probably not done science in a classical way. It would be brutal for a lot of kids...the breadth and depth covered plus the research papers, etc. it just isn't for everyone but for our emerging scientists, perfect. It takes a tremendous amount of time and so some things, like history, can't be done on that same level. If we pursued history, Greek, and Latin at the "truly classical" level, the kids would not be pursuing science in the way they are.. I suspect that most kids never pursue a classical education in the sciences.

Our forefathers did not have as much math and science/technology to master has this generation. A classical education that harks back 200 years isn't even practical. Classical education isn't a "do this or do that" it is an approach to learning that is superior to modern educational theory and follows the natural maturation path of the brain/individual but it's implementation may vary according to subject and may not be able to be pursued to its ultimate degree in every academic area. There's only so much time, mental, and emotional energy in a day and so not everyone can pursue "the ultimate rigorous classical pursuit" in every single subject but yet are classically schooling from the learning approach perspective.

It's a means to an end but not the end itself.

Faith

[Laura Corin]

Anyone here doing Caesar the sophomore year and Virgil and Xenophon the junior? I'd love to read through some threads on how that's going.


I studied the Aeneid from age 15 - 16 in a very ordinary private school in the UK. Calvin will be doing something similar. Not a high bar to jump.

Laura

[Rhondabee]

I studied the Aeneid from age 15 - 16 in a very ordinary private school in the UK. Calvin will be doing something similar. Not a high bar to jump.

Laura

It is interesting how quickly standards change once you just start reading.

I remember when my oldest son was in 6th grade, and just the thought of reading one epic Greek poem in the 9th grade was enough to send me flipping through catalog after catalog and website after website of the "latest and greatest" high school curriculum. I just thought there was NO WAY that child (or myself) would EVER make it through even *ONE* of those huge tomes - however well-educated that would make us - LOL!

Now, two years after my other posts in this thread - LOL!, here he is going into 10th grade having read all 3 last year! And, in fact - he ENJOYED them!!! And, just the other day, (cough, cough, sputter, sputter!!!) THANKED me for the experience!!!! I think he likes showing off his knowledge to his girlfriend more than anything :lol:. But, somehow, he truly feels like he relates to these ancient peoples - who, after all, really did struggle with the same issues and emotions we struggle with today.

Yet, life happens and - Yes, you can tell from my siggy below that we have made quite a few compromises this year...

Still, just the act of reading what you can, and then reading the next thing, and the next...I don't know...I'm just so thankful to be where we are. I think if everyone could just get through the logic-stage recs of WTM, the world would be a much better place.

[Annabel Lee]

<snipped> One of the best aspects of homeschooling is allowing our kids to develop that special niche and then run with it. Ours has been almost across the board science....let me tell you....most of you have probably not done science in a classical way. It would be brutal for a lot of kids...the breadth and depth covered plus the research papers, etc. it just isn't for everyone but for our emerging scientists, perfect. It takes a tremendous amount of time and so some things, like history, can't be done on that same level. If we pursued history, Greek, and Latin at the "truly classical" level, the kids would not be pursuing science in the way they are.. I suspect that most kids never pursue a classical education in the sciences.

Faith,
Would you mind sharing a bit about what science is/has been like in your homeschool? What specifically do you mean by doing science in a classical way? Do you mean anything other than what WTM lays out? That's my only real exposure to classical (er, neoclassical) science. What you wrote above intrigues me. Please dish. :)

[Hunter]

My youngest child tackled some of Euclid in the original Greek. I wonder if the website is still up. There is no time for neoclassical history and lit, when tackling the classical languages and/or classical sciences and maths!

[Jyniffrec]

Our forefathers did not have as much math and science/technology to master has this generation. A classical education that harks back 200 years isn't even practical. Classical education isn't a "do this or do that" it is an approach to learning that is superior to modern educational theory and follows the natural maturation path of the brain/individual but it's implementation may vary according to subject and may not be able to be pursued to its ultimate degree in every academic area. There's only so much time, mental, and emotional energy in a day and so not everyone can pursue "the ultimate rigorous classical pursuit" in every single subject but yet are classically schooling from the learning approach perspective.

It's a means to an end but not the end itself.

Faith

Hmm...that is thought provoking! I will be thinking over this for awhile and what it means for our family.

[Quiver0f10]

I can see why those of us who really like WTM but struggle to implement all aspects of it stay here. After all, WTM ruined our lives! :D We know too much to go back to the other way and we know too little to do it the way we really want to!!! So we hang out here and keep trying to do a better job than we did last year.


I just love this! I really needed this thread right now.

[Brindee]

I can see why those of us who really like WTM but struggle to implement all aspects of it stay here. After all, WTM ruined our lives! :D We know too much to go back to the other way and we know too little to do it the way we really want to!!! So we hang out here and keep trying to do a better job than we did last year.

I just love this!:iagree: That's a great summary of why a lot of us are here, I think! I also love the wealth of knowledge, and the readiness of others to help. Finding new curriculums, getting questions answered and "trying to do a better job than we did last year!" Yep! :001_smile:

[ArwenA]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for this thread! It has been such a blessing and exactly what I need right now.

When I first began homeschooling I followed TWTM to the letter. I used the all the recommended curriculum and schedules. I wanted so desperatly to give my children the best education possible, and I thought I could only do that by following "the book" exactly.
But as the years past I drifted farther and farther from TWTM. I found other resources I liked, read more homeschooling books, met more homeschoolers. We became more eclectic than classical. Looking back I realize that this shift was probably based on the homeschoolers in our area. The few who call themselves "classical" don't do much Latin, or logic, or rhetoric. They follow the 4-year history cycle, and that's about it.
Anyway, I became unhappy with our eclectic, workbook-y approach. I was really drawn to CM and began to try to implement her ideas.
At this point life got really tough, I adopted nine kids, moved house three times, got remarried, converted to Catholicism, was pregnant and gave bith to twins... We spent six months not doing school at all and then did a year of Sonlight just because it was the only thing I could handle. It was fine, we loved the books, but it wasn't the education I really want for my kids.
This year I'm really determined to get back to where I always wanted to be; classical, but not stuck to following anything word for word. I want to make sure we do Latin, Greek, logic, rhetoric, get back on track with chronological history, study the great books, do rigorous math and science.
This thread has really reminded me that I can do it and I'm not alone. Again, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Arwen