So who has the new WTM? Your thoughts on the shift to include history at R Level?

[Janice in NJ]

I'd love to know what you think about this: the changes to R suggestions great books chapter.

At first I thought, "That makes sense. Yes, we do study history as a separate subject. We do that." But then I read the "How to" section.

First of all, I can see how it solves one of my problems: it would definitely shorten up the amount of time spent on history. :D This plan would definitely take less than an hour a day. AND I've already selected the US history text - LOVE it. There is so much to explore using this book.

But I don't think my kids would learn much with the "How to Method" suggested in the updated WTM book. Really.

When I read it, I thought, "Huh?" I quickly imagined the kind of output I would get from my soon-to-be 11th grader & 9th grader. It would be NOTHING that I could show to anyone and claim as credit-worthy at the high school level. This input/output issues always leads to problems.... me wondering how much "reading" is being done vs. how much staring at the page; staring into space; etc..... And the arguing. Me accusing the frustrated teen whose adam's apple is banging up and down at my eye level as he adamantly swears that he has been reading even though he has nothing intelligent to say about what he's "read" - which circles us around to the problem of "what really is 'reading' after all?"

I can see how this might work with some kids. I wish that it would with mine. But it leaves me with the feeling that I get when I look at the covers of the homeschool catalogs - we joke about those "people" when those catalogs come into our house. They look so "together" - so neat-n-tidy. Sheesh - the women even have fake eyelashes and mascara on. I'm lucky if my hair is crammed into a knot so it's not drooping into my face. Sure those children need no accountability - no big stick hanging over them - learn this or else! THAT's why the momma has time to iron her slacks, adorn herself with jewelry, and primp in front of the mirror before she "homeschools." I'll bet her kids would thrive with this read/respond method. They all look like they "love to learn."

So I'm left feeling that compared to some, my kids must be really unmotivated, lazy, ????. There is no way this history plan would work with them. Yes it does seem simple. But I'm guess that at the end of the year, I would end up assigning a grade, stuffing their "output" into a folder, and praying that NO ONE ever asked to see it. I think I would feel guilty that somehow they hadn't earned their "grade" - that I just gave it to them.

I haven't read TWTM in a while... a long while. I just didn't realize how far away from the book I/we have traveled. Everything around here is super-schoolish in comparison.

Things have gotten quite complex around here.
And the suggested hours in the book. No where close to the time that we spend especially in math, science, and foreign language.
(Not sure how I feel about that.....)

I guess I have really unmotivated kids. They don't learn unless they must. And it takes time for them to learn this material. We spend a lot more than 1050 hours per year.

I tell folks that we follow TWTM model.
I guess we don't.
In any subject at the high school level.
I don't think we use anything from the book with the methods suggested in the book.

So I guess we're not TWTMers after all? sniff.
It feels weird.
Maybe we are; I just don't feel like it right now.

We're even dropping Latin at the end of the year. I'm eagerly selling all of my Latin & Greek books. (I'm actually REALLY psyched! So no worries there... it just feels weird though- we've been banging our head against that rock for eight years! No water that I can see - it seems like we're just walking away. No parade; no ta-da. Just a shoulder-slumped exit. I wonder if that's how a lot of this will end - with a whimper.)

Anyone read the new edition?
Have you read the old book in a while?

I feel lonely! Weird. Wrong. Unsure?
I feel like I don't fit, yet I always felt like I fit here even though I don't fit anywhere else. Now I feel really disconnected. It feels yuckie!
Janice

[Julieofsardis]

I think TWTM is now so much more than just a book by SWB. For me, these boards are an extension of TWTM method.

You are a part of that -- In so many ways.

I know for myself that you, along with others here, have influenced me and my decisions almost as much as SWB herself. Please don't feel alone. You are very much a part of this living organism we call The Hive!!!

[Nicole M]

Ditto what Julie said.

But I gotta tell you, it's killing me now, that I don't have the new edition!

[Jill, OK]

I'd love to know what you think about this: the changes to R suggestions great books chapter.


...now I'm curious, lol!

Here I'd convinced myself that I didn't need to purchase the new WTM...and now you've piqued my curiosity. :toetap05:

[mcconnellboys]

Ditto that!

And how on earth could you think that you don't fit here? You are very much a part of the fabric of these boards!

You have to do what you have to do for YOUR children. Not for some model children in a book (any book).

I have not read the new book yet (darn), but it sounds like this would not have worked at all for my older son. He has auditory and other processing issues and freezes up when asked direct questions (even by me, generally). He can't stand that sort of thing and feels extremely pressured and uncomfortable in conversations where he has to answer questions.

When he was still hsing and reading history, lit, etc., I had to try to talk to him about his readings via stealth tactics. I'd wait until he commented about things in the book then take up an "I wonder why this or that happpened that way...." sort of stance in order to draw more info out of him. For the same reason, I really never did much memory work with him at all, either. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do....

[Nicole M]

I feel lonely! Weird. Wrong. Unsure?
I feel like I don't fit, yet I always felt like I fit here even though I don't fit anywhere else. Now I feel really disconnected. It feels yuckie!
Janice

If it makes you feel better, it took me a full 45 minutes to figure out what you meant by "R level" and I am not kidding. Talk about feeling like I'm not really one of you!

(What I'm really dying to know, though, is what she chose in place of Kingfisher! Is that secret out yet? I thought it would be all over the K-8 boards and not a peep!)

[Sue in St Pete]

Hi Janice,

I haven't bought the book yet, I have the 1999 version, which I think is the 1st edition and the newest one is the 3rd. I re-read it before we started logic stage. I am going to buy the new version and read the rhetoric stage this summer.

I have been thinking about high school and realizing that I don't feel capable of doing it TWTM way for many reasons: never taught that way myself; mathy person, not language arts person; little time for self-education since I work part-time; and the unmotivated ds (how do you discuss anything with a monosyllabic child?). I love the ideals of TWTM but reality falls far from the ideals. I long for a (secular) place where I could send ds to be classically schooled by someone who knows what they are doing. I'd gladly give up the stick to someone else.

OTOH, I can take what I like and leave the rest. I know that our hs has been richer due to TWTM. Our science and history and literature has been much more organized. I am regularly amazed at what ds will read (even if he doesn't engage much in discussion about it). We spent 4 years on Latin before we dropped out. I hope that will be of some benefit in the future.

I appreciate your honesty. :grouphug:

[Heather in VA]

I'm awaiting my copy. Can you give us a idea of the new 'how to' method and how it is different from a "typical" great book study?

Drat - I want my copy!!!

Heather

[Gwen in VA]

One of the things I love about these boards is seeing how "real" people incorporate (or don't incorporate) the various suggestions and models set out in WTM.

We're all different people. We have different kids. And I learn a lot from all of you -- the ones who follow WTM far more closely than I can possibly fathom and the ones who have strayed (as I have) far from it in the course of pursuing what we felt was best for our kids (or our sanity or our pocketbook or our marriage or .....).

[specialmama]

Janice, all I have to offer is a small slice of a different perspective. I'm sure that nobody (including SWB) authors a book to make people feel disconnected or to feel bad because they aren't doing things *exactly* as prescribed. I believe the book was written to aid and equip a teacher, to help them think outside of the box, to encourage and inspire, and provide a buffet of ideas and methods which you can tailor to suit your family. If you have come to the conclusion that you truly aren't doing things classically, then that is okay, in fact it is good because you are your own entity and you are doing what you must for your own children, and you can see that and choose to celebrate that. Home education is not one-size fits all. I propose to sport those rose-coloured glasses, sista, and not let it get you down! :001_smile: Stand tall in the knowledge that you are doing what is best for your kiddos! Which, actually, I think you're doing because you're happy to ditch the latin and greek! But you know what I mean! I hope! :001_smile:

[Jane in NC]

Given that my son is a rising 12th grader who will take a number of courses at the CC, I had no plans to buy the new WTM edition. But I must admit that now I am curious, Janice. Maybe I need it to plan some post homeschooling adventure. (I'd love to have kids over for tea parties and seminars on some "big ideas" topic. But would I be alone at the table?)

I'll go along with the other posters who have said that we all adapt the WTM methodology to our own situations. As Gwen pointed out, we pursue what is best for our kids with the constraints of pocketbook and sanity. For some posters, access to university courses or university libraries is easy. Others are at a geographic distance from these opportunities or cannot afford tuition. Some kids perform well in structured online courses. Some kids can only do so much "seat work" and will not function without running a few miles or doing some hands on project like woodworking or gardening.

Now that my son is inching closer to the college application process, the question that has been floating in my head is "Have we taken advantage of our opportunities?" I think that this is the question that also needs to be asked as we consider the WTM experience. All of us live in areas that offer some unique opportunity. I live in a biodiversity hotspot (at least by the Nature Conservancy's standards) so it is not surprising that we adapted our biology labs to include things that are unique to our lives. For example, my son photographed a necropsy of a loon for a bio lab. Part of the point was assisting a wildlife agent determine the cause of death which proved to be aspergillosis. This seemed more "real" to me than dissecting a preserved specimen.

Adaptation is one of the things that I love about homeschooling which I think has its place in a Well Trained World. Think about how homeschooling has enabled JennW and Jenny in Florida's kids to participate in theatre projects or how Blue Hen's son has walked away with Science Olympiad golds or how Kareni's daughter has won numerous Latin honors. (Hope Jenn, Jenny, Carole and Kareni do not mind the name dropping.) From my reading, I gather that these kids are all well rounded in general while excelling in fields of their specific interest. This, to me, is the freedom provided by TWTM. We can feel confident that our kids have strong basics while liberating them to go deeper into that which intrigues them.

We have used a number of suggestions from The Book over the years, but as my son moved into high school, I think we have adapted more to his interests or to what Mama Thinks is Best. The latter refers to my love of Dolciani. The former to my son's love of science. I continue to seek out WTM reading lists if not for the specific titles, per se, then for the authors. Looking at 12th grade, for instance, I see Hardy on the list. But whether my son reads the suggested novel or an alternative one, I'll still say we following a WTM track.

My son says now that he wants to be an archaeologist. Having followed (perhaps loosely) WTM suggestions has probably given him the best of all possible foundations for this field. He has a broad knowledge of ancient/medieval history and literature, he has studied Latin and some French. Does it matter if we did not follow a specific writing curriculum? I think not.

Jane (who is not worried this week--maybe next)

[Janice in NJ]

And thanks for the kind words. They help with the loneliness. A lot.

I guess the really weird part for me is that in the beginning, I did everything by the book... or at least I tried to.

Five years ago when the 2nd edition was released, we were early in the logic stage - oldest finishing up 5th grade. I re-read the 2nd edition and got really psyched to begin reading the great books on my own. (I felt like certain things with hsing were finally working - even the non-WTMish things that we were doing.) I started seriously looking ahead toward the GB.

Then I started doing it. And I needed help. Lots more guidance than offered up in the book. I found what I needed eventually. Fortunately the level of materials has increased to meet the demand at the upper levels - that or I finally discovered them - either way they appeared in my world. There are so many options for self-education. I found so many things that helped me pick up the clue phone - in the areas of literature, history, philosophy, science, the history and philosophy of science, etc, etc, etc. It's been great. I've learned so much, and I'm still trucking along. All's well.

It's just that in real life, I care about this stuff. I care about education. Passionately. I am investing deeply in this process because I believe in this process. And I feel like I have grown so, so much. In knowledge. In understanding. In administration skills as a homeschooler. I still have a long way to go, but this process has made me a much bigger person.

However, in real life, folks who homeschool and know us but have never seen us in action have an opinion about what I'm doing wrong with my kids. Our education seems odd. Too much. Too intensive. For example: we spend about 90 minutes a day on math. I know no one in real life that would do that. But I know math, I know how to teach it, and I also know that there is no way my children would become proficient in its language if we only spent 45 minutes a day working with it. And then there's the technology. We spend time playing with the graphing calculator. And I have Sketchpad and Fathom and so much more waiting in the wings... I haven't even taken the time to load these programs because I don't know HOW I'm going to carve out more time to use them. But they make education exciting; I can't wait to launch into those worlds. So I glare at that 90 minute block and try to figure out how to expand it. Frustrating!

Science is the same. Learning to read the text - the words, the charts, the pictures with captions - and interpret/connect the text with reality (the lab experience) takes time. Learning how to prepare for a lecture and take notes and study for a test and work through problems - these all take time - more than 45 minutes a day. And there is so much more hands-on that I want to cover. And great books to read. And terrific lectures that will expand their tent-pegs about societal expectations of science and technology... and right and wrong and !

Back to real life. So there are folks in my real world who think that I'm nuts. Because I really do love this stuff. Very, very much. All of it - even the humanities. And my kids are generally psyched about what they love too. And I've started planning next year's history and lit and philosophy and government work. I'm tightly constrained time-wise because my oldest (11th grade ds) is starting to move into more tech stuff - computer programming, electronics, cadd, etc. That's good; as it should be. But there is still so much philosophy I want to unearth from the 19th and 20th centuries. Things that I want to explore with him before he exits. My daughter wants to do more science, but she is a lover of languages and her voice teacher wants her to explore Italian and German to go along with her French. She would be GREAT at it... but the time needed. sigh. And younger ds - music is such a huge part of his day. So many voices have confirmed that this is where he should be right now, but I struggle with the schedule. How to offer him what I know he needs right now in order to stay excited and engaged.

Back to the humanities. History, lit, philosophy. I need guidance on how to squeeze this back into a manageable chunk of our day.

So I ordered the book for inspiration. Because as I "remember" it, the book is over-the-top at the R stage in the humanities, but I'm thinking that maybe I'll be inspired. Third time's a charm, right?

But then I read it. And I felt like maybe all of the voices are right. Maybe I'm the one who's over the top. Way over the top.

Or way under it. NOT sure which.

I totally get that we all need to tweak ANY model so that it fits us, our kids, and our lives. I get that.

It just feels weird to think that you're marching along in tandem with something - loosely, yes, but still approximately in tandem - and then find out that your paths bifurcated so long ago that you are not even in the same neck of the woods. I am where I am, surely. But when the real-life-voices come at me hinting that I am in the wrong place, I took comfort in having a map. It feels really weird to find out that I don't have a map AND to discover that I haven't had one for a long, long time - even though I thought I did. :confused:

So I'm left searching around a bit. Needing a bit of comfort.

And I've also been doing a bit too much reading lately. Too much exposure to that "role of education" debate. The education of the ruler-class vs. the education of the servant-class. An education in ideas and ethics vs. an education in marketable skills. This whole debate leaves me irritated because there seems to be such a dark shadow placed on those who seek to gain an "education" in practical, marketable skills - such a "money grubbers instead of advancing the human race toward a loftier perch" division. We are not rich people. We don't have money. We don't come from money. We survive because my dh works for an employer every week. Period. My sons and daughter will have to have skills that someone will pay for in order to feed themselves. Something that someone will pay for. Period.

So I'm trying to educate my kids to be wise people. Yes. But I have to regularly deal with the fact that they are most likely going to feed themselves based on their skills, not their wisdom.

No one pays me to talk about what I know. If I was going to enter the workforce, I would have to take a long hard look at my skills. And I honestly feel like the current inventory would leave me frustrated. The world is becoming increasingly packed with ideas. And everyone seems to want to share their ideas. We all want to talk. Few want to listen.

I'm rambling. Bifurcating. :001_smile:

I was frustrated when I re-read the R sections because I realized that in my understanding, the model trains a student to think deeply. To train in wisdom and self-education. Confident that correct input will produce a wise person. But my model has become increasingly bent toward "output." What can we produce output-wise that is valuable? Good enough. A clearly tangible product. Something that a college will want. Something that an employer will want. (With a bit of whole-person, wisdom-enhanced-person crammed in around the edges.)

But I've never finished a project like this. What do I know? I'm pensive about the volume of my talking voice vs. my listening voice.

Especially when those two voices used to line up so much. ;)

Thanks for the feedback. It helps.

Peace,
Janice

Enjoy your little people
Enjoy your journey

[asta]

Oh, Janice - you have written so much of what I have been feeling lately, and I haven't even read the new edition!

I don't know what to say - I'm struggling with it all as well. Maybe virtual sympathy Margaritas?


asta

[Rhondabee]

Not sure what "bifurcating" is...hmmm...after the last few years of living with two young men & their young-at-heart father, I'm not sure I want to know - LOLOLOL!!!!

Seriously, I think I felt quite the same things you're feeling now after I listened to SWB last year (In Atlanta). To borrow a phrase from a book, "Someone moved my cheese!" She was talking about minimums! About traditional history sequences. About counting hours, and when you get to - what was it? 140? 160? - you stop - you're done! So very different than the reputation of the board. I felt....betrayed, almost?

Betrayed because I've been trying so hard for so long to turn my two very phlegmatic sons into self-learners. And, I haven't succeeded. At least, not in achieving a reality that is the goal in my mind. I feel we are really at the bottom of the WTM Barrel in terms of output. But, OTOH, we are working as hard as we can without doing major damage (either to the kids, or to me!).

Recently I pulled out the CD I bought of the Atlanta high school talk and listened again. This time, I admit, I was actually encouraged by it. Suddenly high school seems do-able. It seems like an adventure that is custom-tailored to *my* child. Very "Moore Foundation"-ish, actually. Strange that *that* is where I started on this journey!

I think the hardest part of homeschooling for me is that I can't compare my kids to a standard. The standards are all either "too hard", or they're "not enough". There is no agreement in what a 9th grade should be doing in terms of "output", or even "input" for that matter. At times, it seems like the only "standard" is "push, push, push and push harder".

I think you were/are a pianist, right? The only analogy I can think of is when I kneww that a work needed to be faster, so I worked and I worked and I worked to make it faster - always thinking, "It's not fast enough. It's just not fast enough." And, then, one day I'm told it's *too* fast. Lighten up. Don't be so confined to a steady beat. Let it breathe. And I wanted to scream, "AAAARRRRRRGH!" My whole sense of the speed was wrapped up in the adrenaline rush of "trying to play it faster", and I had to learn to give up that adrenaline rush in order to move past the "play it faster" phase and into the "let the music play itself" phase.

Keeping with my music thoughts, have you ever had the experience of hearing yourself play without knowing it was you doing the playing? Weren't you just amazed?! It is a strange experience to know that when I've heard myself play, I was awed by the performance that I thought was *so* *terrible* while I was playing it. I think, or maybe I just hope, that life is a little like that? One day, we'll see our lives and think, "Wow!"

Of course, I can't say that about everything. I *am* embarrassed to say that when the boys were little, I didn't let them read fairy tales - too much magic. I made them drink that nasty green vegetable juice - Yea for me that I can no longer remember what it's called! I wouldn't let them watch Dragon Tales - you know, they might try to indoctrinate my young ones into siding with the Dragon of Revelation and receiving the mark of the beast - who knew what grave, dark powers might lurk in those Dragon badges?

So, I am in liimbo, myself. On one hand, I have the ideal I have carried around in my head since I first saw those literature lists in WTM. (The self-motivated student, searching on his own for deeper answers to the things that naturally interest him - Ha! where *is* that student? I mean, besides *me*.) OTOH, I *know* that at times I have been a bit *too* idealistic for my own good. I don't have the new WTM, yet, so I don't feel qualified to speak to that. It should be here, soon. I do wonder what those who did venture forth into Great Books ala WTM will think when *they* read the new edition.

Blessings to you, Janice!

[Mad Jenny Flint]

Your thoughts are on the very highest level of what I have been feeling forever- the "meta-philosophy" of our home school. I do not have the answers for anyone else, I think we all must find our own path, but I think for me it is about finding the balance that will work for us.

I want to spend our learning time enjoying what we are doing, developing curious minds for the subjects we choose to put before us. Sometimes I do that with wild success, and other times, I am cracking the whip and expecting (almost) too much. I don't know what "system" to develop to achieve that balance or if it is even something that can be planned, put on paper, entered into my database of lessons. I think it is really more intuitive, and must be re-worked daily. I think part of it is trial-and-error.

Here is one of the most frustrating and wonderful parts to me: these blasted kids change every year! Sometimes they can fly through a subject, sometimes it is a crawl, sometimes we find we have to backtrack. They move to a new level and I have to learn all over again the best way to teach them.

I don't know what the new WTM edition says, and I may ultimately purchase it to find out because you have me curious, too. Whatever it says, though, I know I will have to tweak and develop my own methods because that is what I do.

Ultimately, I have to make decisions on a high level about what is important to include in their education, through readings and finding ideas here and perusing curriculum/book choices. I will have to develop a program that works with our learning priorities and our schedules. I will have to try it and see if it works, and I will have to change it. Meanwhile, as I change the tires on this bus, it keeps rolling forward.

I have mellowed about all of these swimming ideas over time. I am more relaxed, by far, than I was when my son was in the grammar stage (poor kid). It is daunting, thinking of beginning high school with him next year, but I feel relatively confident. A lot of it will be up to him, too. Of course, this is also the stage where I have to learn to let go in so many areas with him.

I started out following neo-classical WTM methods from K with my son. Now, I follow it as a foundation, suggestions about my priorities and where my vision is, and then I narrow down from there to find books/curriculum that will allow me to encourage that level of curiosity, interest and joy *while* getting the output I need to make sure we are on track for future goals. Then, I use my philosophy to plug that curriculum or book into a lesson plan/schedule that will work with our other activities and time constraints.

I wish it were a recipe. I wish we could sit over coffee and talk about this. I feel like I am talking over a great valley, through a fog, to a listener whom I can't see.

Hugs to you, Janice, and all else for whom this thread resonates.

[Janice in NJ]

Rhonda,

You look up bifurcate and I'll look up phlegmatic. Not sure what that means, but it always pulls up a potty-humor image for me. (Isn't life with boys and their light-hearted dads just GRAND!!! :001_smile: Thank goodness for the ggigles!)

Yes, I play the piano. I hear you about the "go faster." But I'm watching my younger son grow as a musician. It's odd. I still know more than he does, but he operates from a place of understanding that I know nothing about. Music is a deeper endeavor for him; I'll never understand it the way he does/will.

I guess that's what makes me unsteady in my confidence with this whole "What is high school for" thing. Why do we as mommas LOVE the humanities while our kids tolerate it. Is it the output vs. input issue? I study, read, explore, wonder on my own with no pressure to produce any "schoolish" output.

So is that the difference?

Darn, darn, darn. I wish I knew.

I suspect that it isn't. I suspect that no one around here would have dug this deeply if I hadn't forced them to dig. But I'm not sure. No one MADE me dig. I dug because I found something worth digging for. At least I thought it was.

Is that the difference?

And another thing that really rubs me the wrong way. The hsers that I hang out with don't seem overly concerned about output. Of course I don't spend time in their homes either, so I have no way of knowing what their homeschool is really like - any more than they can accurately judge mine. But I had a conversation not to long ago with a terrific gal. I really like her. She was encouraging me to enroll my son in a local co-op that focuses on engineering skills/topics. Her son has attended weekly session with this group for four years (as a freshman - senior). She was praising it enthusiastically. I asked her specifically what they have covered. She couldn't tell me the specifics. "They do a lot of really great in-depth stuff with computers." OK. I get that the momma doesn't have to completely understand what is going on - the nitty-gritty. But she went on to say that her son loves it; that sometimes he locks himself in his room and just does tech for the whole school week. She couldn't tell me what he was doing. But it's great. I've chatted with other parents about this class. None of them can tell me what the kids are doing either.

I'm sorry. If my kids were "working" all week long in their room on a computer, you can bet that they would be spending most of their time surfing and goofing. Period. That's what my kids would be doing. Just being honest. The output would be weak compared to the amount of time spend. In our homeschool if I don't impose input/output/time-spent restrictions, then things slide hard-n-fast to the bottom - even in the areas that they are passionate about.

Along the same lines, I also personally know many homeschoolers who have their kids reading a lot. A lot of input. But they stop there; I've asked them point-blank. Some follow a "curriculum", but SO many just have their kids read "ala a classical education." That's what they tell me. Their kids are not discussing these books with a local college professor or a humanities-major from the 70's. They are not producing the two page paper per book and the 100+ hr. "junior thesis." I've asked. They say that their kids read and write for their high school English credit, but then I ask specifically how many books and how many papers at what length "count" for a high-school English credit and the group gets painfully silent. No one will answer with specifics. Which makes me wonder how many "papers" are being written vs. how many "papers" are planned/included in the course descriptions. What IS a "paper" anyway??? Are they just handing their kids the books, having them read, and calling that good. (Because I've read these books and I got little to nothing out of them until I started poking around. Oh. Huh? What? NOW I get it. AND now when I read, I find/enjoy so much more on my own. I'm learning how to read. At age 42. Who would have thought?)

History? Their kids are not reading the history spine and then spending hours at the library delving into topics that they find interesting. So I'm not giving a "thumbs-down" to the WTM educational model as presented. I'm just not a WTMer. And I don't know any in real life. (Love hanging on the boards with you folks who do it. I wish you were flesh-n-blood for me sometimes!!!) But I do know lots of folks in real life (even me) who claim we are following a model that we aren't following. We've eliminated the hard parts and kept the easy parts (the reading). Frustrated with that, I'm always actively pursuing ways to move away from that model - even though I secretly wish that it could be that easy. But I've tried it. Countless times. It's just too easy for me to assume that my kids are learning. I've tried it. They seem so smart. Then I dig a little deeper and find out that they are just great fakers. And it's not their fault. They don't know that they aren't "learning" anything. They're doing the reading - at least they think they are reading. But they aren't growing at all. Not the way I think they should.

Sighing, I head more toward a schoolish model. Input. Study. Produce output. Tons of work. I hate THAT. But at least I don't feel delusional.

But then I think about my own education. Lots of reading. Not a lot of tangible output. And I like the topic(s). And I think I'm good at it.
So what do I know!!!!!!!!????????!!!!!!!!!!

So please, keep balancing me on this one! :001_smile:
It's raining her today and I'm feeling the low-pressure angst. :001_smile:
...and I'm tired. Too much to do and not enough time to do it. (I haven't even taken the time to color-n-paint my grey left eyebrow this morning! I don't even OWN fake eyelashes and my mascara is always gloppy from age.)

Peace,
Janice

Enjoy your little people
Enjoy your journey

P.S. My dear, dear sister gave me a really nice pedicure kit for Christmas. I opened it; thanked here; and set it at the base of my night-stand. I finally pulled it out of sight and shoved it into the back of the hall closet this week. A pedicure? I don't have time to buff my feet! I feel like I'm living in a world with too few points of contact. Women buff their feet. I know they do. Where I live women pay money to have someone else buff their feet. I care about my appearance. I do. But I had no idea that there were so many steps and products available to create presentable feet. Really. There are a lot of contraptions and creams in that bag. My dear sis thinks I need to pamper myself. I love her for it. But I feel disconnected from even her; even she has no idea what my life is like.

She always has such beautiful nails.

She listens when I admit that my life is too complicated and that I wish that things were easier.
She answers by encouraging me to buff my calluses.
Maybe she's right. Maybe I've got some hard spots.
It's hard to say what the answer is.

[Rhondabee]

ETA: I was thinking while correcting Math....and this thought came to me (real quick - gotta get back!)....two days ago I listened to a cassette tape by SWB called "Great Books: Literature as History". At the time, she mentioned SOTW-3 was in the works - it's older, obviously! But, what I did take away from listening was a picture of a curriculum that was *literature* focused, rather than *history* focused. If the new WTM Methods help me make that a reality, then I think that would be a good thing. I love that I have been able to learn so much history over the past 3 1/2 years, but really what drew me to WTM was the literature. I wonder if maybe the new recs might be trying to bring back a balance of concentrating on literature and touching on history while doing so? (The new WTM should be here later today - hurry, UPS!)

******

So much understanding here, Janice! I will post back later. Wishing I *could* bifurcate myself right now so that I could sit here (raining here, too!) and post and chat and get some, "Hey! My life is like that too!" encouragement I've been missing lately. But, I must go "be the inspiration" of my phlegmatic (sluggish and unexcited) children.

Blessings~

[Hausunterricht]

Ok I skimmed some posts. I can't handle my morning coffee this pregnancy. Tea isn't really cutting it.

As you have read, thought, and re-posted it seems you are actually doing quite well with your children. They sound happy and "Well Trained" to me.

I'm curious if you just need more for yourself. I love, love, love to learn. I went back to College and the University for a few years while homeschooling. I realized how much of my own needs I was placing on my children's education. It wasn't fair for them. I just couldn't see it.

Now I'm getting better at making my own learning time. I know my children aren't at High School yet. But, I've been thinking about since my oldest is 12. He will be 13 next year. He has special needs and I've had to realize he may not get through all those "Well Trained" years. But, I believe he could, so I want to cram all that stuff in his brain.

I've decided to slow down for his sake. I'm trying to work at his level and give him a better foundation (at least for certain areas.) It's lacking for many reasons.

Don't feel left out though. I used to visit the old boards and feel left out or strange. I've struggled here, as well. It wasn't that I didn't fit in, it was my misunderstanding that there was a secret yardstick around here and someone was measuring me.

When I'm really feeling wonky I find SWB Day in the Life essays. Makes me feel so much better.

[Dulcimeramy]

Janice, thank you so much for sharing these thoughts.

I find that same disconnect between myself and other homeschoolers sometimes. We're all using the same lofty philosophies and books, yet when I want to talk about actual output I hear crickets.

We can wax eloquent about philosophies and process, but we don't want to tell each other that our child can barely form a sentence. Not to worry, though, we are classical homeschoolers!

It reminds me of that chapter in Dumbing Down Our Kids by Charles Sykes in which he highlights the story of a ps high school teacher who has abandoned traditional methods for progressive. She spoke all afternoon to the board in high-falutin' language about "higher order thinking skills" but the truth under the edu-speak was that she had abandoned real science and taught the kids to grow mold on a carrot instead.

Homeschoolers do the same thing.

Anytime I have ever, ever tried to share my child's actual work on a hs message board, I get very few responses. Few will dare to evaluate or compare. No one will tell me if their 12 year old would do better or worse. I get pm's about showing off, but I'm not trying to do that. I've read all the theories and heard all the chatter, now show me what can be expected! Am I pushing too hard? Is he doing it right? What "is"' grade level work? How should I know, and why won't anybody say what their kids can actually do? Why is it taboo?

We can talk all day about theory, method, process, curriculum. We can feel better than the ps, better than other homeschoolers. But when the rubber meets the road and someone says, "show me the money," all go silent.

When I ask people to look at my child's work, or to get specific about output, there is mostly just silence....and then a little hip postmodern voice comes out of my own subconscious. In the aliterate, anti-intellectual speech of the day, it whispers, "ur doin it rong."

I "hear" that I'm the only one who cares. I "hear" that I'm the only one who spends the TIME on English or Math or Science, wanting to know if the children are learning, retaining, owning. I don't want to just read "at" them, I want them to learn for life and prove it to me and to themselves...

I "hear" that I'm working too hard for things that don't matter. I "hear" how little I could be doing, how much less I really have to invest, for them to get into college. I "hear" that I don't really have to give my whole life for this.

And that is just among homeschoolers. Among ps-schooling friends, I am in an alternate reality. Nothing I do with my whole day holds any value at all to them. They think I've chosen a stressful and unnecessary hobby, and its best if we don't talk about education at all.

I give my whole life for this. Not just for the academics, but also for a rich religious life, for a wholesome and healthy childhood, for culture and tradition for my children. I intend to keep it up for the duration (14 years to go).

Still, in the back of mind every day I hear that postmodern punk whispering, "ur doin it rong," and I wonder if its true.

[vmsurbat]

Rhonda,

Why do we as mommas LOVE the humanities while our kids tolerate it. Is it the output vs. input issue? I study, read, explore, wonder on my own with no pressure to produce any "schoolish" output.

So is that the difference?



The difference is that we Moms are *older*. We *get* (and get excited about) the connections we uncover/recover/discover. The humanities examine *life* and we've experienced so much more of *life* than our kids have.

However mature and gifted our children are, whatever their bent and interests, they don't match our level of interest in *life's* questions because they haven't confronted nearly as much of life as we have.

I often read Moms saying how much they would have loved to learn with a WTM-type education when they were younger. I thought the same thing when my kids were young but I've come to realize that that isn't true. If I had been then who I am *now*, I would have loved the WTM approach.

But as the teen I really was, even as a bright, well-read, straight-A, liked-school-all-right teen, I'm not so sure..... At that age, I wasn't trying so much to find out about LIFE in capital letters, but rather trying to find out about ME--who I was/am. As an adult, I've made my peace with who I am. Now life's questions really interest me.

I am not surprised that my kids aren't excited about the ideas as much as I am. I can share *my* excitement with them, and model "loving to learn"--all to good effect, I think. But in spite of the rich literary environment I've provided through the years, the broad scope of studies, the tailored-to-the-child tasks, my kids are just like I was and more interested in "coming of age" questions than Great Books questions.

FWIW,

[Jane in NC]

Janice,

One of the problems with quantifying output is that it really depends. Sounds like a cop out from the getgo, eh?

I don't hold with read x number of books and write y number of pages because I don't view all books and written pages as equivalent. Perhaps my problem has been "Read and write until I say you are done", something that has not even been sufficiently specific for my son!

You wrote:

Their kids are not discussing these books with a local college professor or a humanities-major from the 70's. They are not producing the two page paper per book and the 100+ hr. "junior thesis." I've asked. They say that their kids read and write for their high school English credit, but then I ask specifically how many books and how many papers at what length "count" for a high-school English credit and the group gets painfully silent.

No, my son is not discussing his books with a local college prof. I was a math major in college but my other coursework was humanities intensive so I am pretty comfortable discussing literature, philosophy, art. Can I do this as well as a college prof? Absolutely not. But I feel that our discussions have some merit--at least they are interesting to me. Like many, I have relied on Teaching Company lectures to fill in the background information not only in literature but in history, philosophy, and science. I think that our homeschool would be less rich without the Teaching Company.

But it would also be less rich without our forays into the real world. We attend lectures, documentaries, concerts and museum exhibits which broaden our view beyond those offered within our home.

I also wanted to note Dulcimeramy's comment:

Anytime I have ever, ever tried to share my child's actual work on a hs message board, I get very few responses. Few will dare to evaluate or compare. No one will tell me if their 12 year old would do better or worse. I get pm's about showing off, but I'm not trying to do that. I've read all the theories and heard all the chatter, now show me what can be expected! Am I pushing too hard? Is he doing it right? What "is"' grade level work? How should I know, and why won't anybody say what their kids can actually do? Why is it taboo?

I am very uncomfortable commenting on specific writing examples that have appeared on the board. Like many, I think I can spot good writing, but I cannot label examples as age appropriate writing. Further, I sometimes feel that parents who post something are looking for a pat on the back which may or not be deserved. (Please note that I am not saying this about you. My comment is intended to be more general.) In this case it is best for me to bow out.

It would be easier to comment if I were part of a group whose children all had the same assignment. But comparing apples and oranges is more challenging for me. Your child's twelve page research paper on Canterbury Tales is more complete than my child's assigned two page essay on a single tale. This does not make my homeschool inadequate. It just means that we did not have uniform assignments. That is the background that is often missing when things are posted. We do not know if the posted piece was just one of a series of similar assignments or the primary research paper of the semester.

Also, I don't think we should have uniform standards. This is why we homeschool! Not very many parents on this board have children working in two languages as my son does. Unfortunately, this decision to study both Latin and French has meant that there has been compromise in other areas. Formal logic suffered. With only twenty four hours in a day, one must make choices.

Janice, I cannot imagine anyone spending less than 90 minutes a day on math. I always had a 50 minute class and an hour's worth of homework when I was in high school. I was not a slacker! When I was in high school, I spent many a Saturday at the public library. A chunk of time every Saturday and/or Sunday was dedicated to homework. Same is true for my son. Our school day is not 8 - 3. Those people who tell me that I push my son too hard or who say that my son is "different" than their child often do not demand as much as I do. Oh well.

As usual, Janice is responsible for another interesting thread.

Jane

[profmom]

:lurk5: Very interesting stuff here! :)

[moira]

Wow! I cannot tell you how much reading your comments has inspired me. I have often felt very confused about the results I want from our homeschool. I want my child to love learning yet I have rigorous demands that require serious output. I believe in the intrinsic values of the humanites but economic utility is also important. I struggle with the time our school takes. We work eight hours a day but really need more time to do all the subjects I would like to do, the way I want to do them. So I compromise and make the most of the eight hours dedicated to learning each day. Some days I feel like we have done it "right", and other days we just manage to muddle through. Some days are about insight, ability and growth and other days it feels like we did too much rote, useless busywork that will soon be forgotten. I find the balance hard to maintain because active learning is hard work that requires energy and time from me to make sure the learning isn't passive. If left on his own my son would also do the easy stuff and not put the effort into anything difficult.

Dulcimeramy-I have had the exact same feelings about output and the taboo of trying to see and share what that is and means to people. Some people think the point is to show off when you share or to compete when you ask about their output when all I really want is to learn the best ways of making the most out of my eight hours.

Janice-It doesn't matter to me if you call yourself a WTM'er to me. What I love is that you are sincerely trying to maximize the potential of your children and grow as a person. Keep up the great work!

Thanks again everyone!

Moira

[Rhondabee]

[QUOTE=Janice in NJ;925129](Isn't life with boys and their light-hearted dads just GRAND!!!
Yes, most definitely.

I still know more than he does, but he operates from a place of understanding that I know nothing about.

I had inklings of this in college. I am very gifted in practicing - *very* gifted in practicing. But, even at a "professional" level, practice does not equal raw talent.

I see now, after creating and running a work-at-home business and then homeschooling that I have this "gift" of practicing in many areas. The thing is, I *prefer* learning & perfecting things to just about every other endeavor. Unfortunately, if the world were populated with little me's, nothing would ever get done.

Why do we as mommas LOVE the humanities while our kids tolerate it.

No answers. But, a thought. As someone else pointed out, our kids haven't lived. And, also, they just *aren't* us. If my DH were the Head Master of our homeschool, it *wouldn't* revolve around the humanities - LOL! So, I don't think it's "we mommas" as much as it is certain personalities, you know? And, that's ok for you to be you. You don't have to change! (Please don't!!!)

I think you and I are the type of people who dream big dreams, and want big things. In some way we want to place our mark on the world, and change it for the better. But, God has given us people who are content to do the little things that must be done by someone. The slow and steady people who make the day-to-day world operate and care not for fame or fortune, so to speak. And, as the ones who are most directly responsible for guiding our children, I do think we also have to give them the freedom to be who they think they are.

I think Susan's talk in Atlanta last summer knocked the wind out of me because she was talking about this - about letting go of everything that isn't the my passion, and finding those mentors who can take over and maybe show my child a passion I can't. And, I am really taking that to heart because, frankly, if I don't I will never find the time to teach my youngest one to read - LOL!

I suspect that no one around here would have dug this deeply if I hadn't forced them to dig. ...
Is that the difference?

Do you mean is that why you don't feel comfortable trusting that their output is really enough? If so, I get you!

I posted a few months ago about how I was worried that if I tried to follow the 2nd ed. WTM recs for Rhetoric that it would just devolve into reading the text and then, "But, Mom, I couldn't find any examples," and "But, I just don't know what to write." So, I'm thankful that the new WTM will have some alternatives that have DVD instruction and/or Answer Keys!



I'm sorry. If my kids were "working" all week long in their room on a computer, you can bet that they would be spending most of their time surfing and goofing. Period. That's what my kids would be doing. Just being honest.

Yeah - I see that happening now. DS comes out of the cave that is his room to announce he really *meant* to do his Latin, but the new Pendragon book just...and he's sorry...he really is...it won't happen again....

And yet, I see that he *is* maturing. He *is* doing better. And, I struggle with wondering what sick sort of mother am I that I expect him to be *so* *perfect*, when I can't keep the kitchen clean?



... but SO many just have their kids read "ala a classical education."

You know, I don't know anyone IRL who gives a floot about the WTM or who uses a classical curriculum. Sometimes I think I would just LOVE to get together with someone and compare notes. - OH, what did *your* 8th grader do with this summary? Look, see, mine still needs to realize when to start a new paragraph, but his thoughts are logical. That sort of thing.

But, then, how would I really react to someone who has gifted kids that have *always* been homeschooled critiquing my ds's paper, when they would have no idea the enormity of how far he's come since I yanked him out of public school in 5th grade? Really, I try to keep quiet about our homeschool, and I don't ask other people what they're doing, either. I wish I felt like I could. I'm not confident enough, yet.

History? Their kids are not reading the history spine and then spending hours at the library delving into topics that they find interesting.

Mine aren't either! As a matter of fact, I asked them today after our discussion, "OK (said in cheeriest teacher voice!) - would you like to learn *more* about the Cuban Missile Crisis or Fidel Castro, or even just Cuba in general?"

A lifeless "No," was the only response. They have *never* wanted to learn more about history. Ever. Guess that means we're not "real" WTMer's, either!

...But they aren't growing at all. Not the way I think they should.

Janice, this concerns me. OK - maybe they're not growing the way you wish they would. But, not at all? I *know* that can't be true! Don't put on blinders to all the good that you have done, and are doing! That's not fair to you or to your children.

I have struggled this year with having to accept less than what I wanted. Before my hysterectomy, I was dog-tired by 2:30 every afternoon. Then, we missed 5 weeks of school while I recuperated. And, our stride never really recovered. I, too, have been tempted to think the whole blasted year's been nothing but a waste, and I was foolish not to put them back in school. It helps to try to be objective.

Yes, their writing has made only minor improvements and they both need to more consistently apply the grammar they know to their written work. The 5th grader *should* be moving on to 2-paragraph reports in history. But, wow! does he know his fractions (thank you Rod & Staff math!). And, really, his writing is so far ahead of his brother's in 5th grade. And, even though "finnally" and "peaple" will always be the bane of my older ds's existence, and he is not writing perfect 5-paragraph essays, at least he *is* able to write a legible, one-page, college-ruled summary without much trouble. And, I realize I went to high school in Georgia, but I did make a "5" on the AP English exam - and I didn't know how to write an essay until I took AP English. So, realistically, I know we have time.

I am certain you all are making progress, too. Isn't that the thing we homeschoolers are supposed to value? Making consistent progress at each learner's optimum pace?


Sighing, I head more toward a schoolish model.

As SWB said on the tape I mentioned earlier, none - or at least very few - of us received a "classical" education, and the world didn't end! Better to go "schoolish" than to ignore that you aren't doing what needs to be done to make another method "work". (And, I'm not saying that *you*, Janice, aren't doing the discussion and written work that needs to be done!)

But, really, Janice, I can't imagine *anyone* who has prepared herself better than you to discuss life and literature and history with her kids. I cannot allow myself to compare myself to you, because I will never be able to do all that you have done. Next year, I am venturing into ChalkDust for math, Red Wagon Tutorials for science, maybe IEW for Rhetoric/writing - or maybe Cindy Marsch, Rosetta Stone for Spanish, and, if the new WTM is really separating history and lit, I may just go ahead and do Smarr for Lit. (Which, would be a shame since I have all the materials here for the first 18 weeks of thegreatbooks.com.) Heck - I might even decide Sonlight was the ticket all along - LOL! I simply can't be all things to everybody. And (gently), you can't either. That's ok!!!!!!! You are a GREAT person.

I pray for you, Janice, that you will find a place of peace. If you do end up doing it all, then I pray that brings you a divine strength and joy, and that your children learn the value of self-sacrificial love from your wonderful, beautiful example. And, if you end up laying down some subjects to "outside" experts, then I pray you will be able to feel God's love and acceptance and know that He is helping you place your children into hands that can take them even farther than you would have been able to. Only you can find that answer - that perfect balance for you. And, I pray that you and your DH can come to that place of peace simultaneously, and that his agreement will give you the courage and strength you need.





P.S.
She always has such beautiful nails.

:glare: And we hate her.


j/k - j/k, I promise!


Much love, Janice!

[Kathie in VA]

The difference is that we Moms are *older*. We *get* (and get excited about) the connections we uncover/recover/discover. The humanities examine *life* and we've experienced so much more of *life* than our kids have.

However mature and gifted our children are, whatever their bent and interests, they don't match our level of interest in *life's* questions because they haven't confronted nearly as much of life as we have.

I often read Moms saying how much they would have loved to learn with a WTM-type education when they were younger. I thought the same thing when my kids were young but I've come to realize that that isn't true. If I had been then who I am *now*, I would have loved the WTM approach.

But as the teen I really was, even as a bright, well-read, straight-A, liked-school-all-right teen, I'm not so sure..... At that age, I wasn't trying so much to find out about LIFE in capital letters, but rather trying to find out about ME--who I was/am. As an adult, I've made my peace with who I am. Now life's questions really interest me.

I am not surprised that my kids aren't excited about the ideas as much as I am. I can share *my* excitement with them, and model "loving to learn"--all to good effect, I think. But in spite of the rich literary environment I've provided through the years, the broad scope of studies, the tailored-to-the-child tasks, my kids are just like I was and more interested in "coming of age" questions than Great Books questions.

FWIW,

I was thinking right along these thoughts. My kids are just approaching high school. I've been homeschooling them for about 7 years and never getting through all my great plans (God always had other ideas). My interest in learning has really peaked with homeschooling. I'd so love to do so much more with them than I had the oportunity to learn. I mean I was a good student, went to a good school. I worked hard for my Bs & As ... but still just wanted to get the work done, like my kids do now. I need to remember that at their age, they want the time/energy to be a kid/teen.

Now as far as the WTM editions, hmm. I have the first edition and re-read the Rhetoric section as my oldest is now in 8th grade. I went and got the 2nd edition from the library and read the section in there. I did notice that the Rhetoric history is different from the Grammar & Dialectic stage history guidelines. With the younger stages the history spine sends you off to study related literature. With the rhetoric stage, the Great Books send you off to study the related history. Since *I* didn't get to fully read thru 2 cycles of history with my kids yet, I would like to still read a spine and fit in the Great Books as we go ... or maybe just add in additional reading of the spine between great books? I've been very curious about the new version of the WTM. I've even gotten the WEM out of the library. This has great guidlines for studying the Great Books.

I'd also love to follow a WTM/WEM great books study but I'm not sure if it will actually work out in *my* house.... my kids are also focused on 'getting school done' by the time the public kids get home (yet they are still spacey!! and take forever even with what they do get)

Great post btw...

:bigear::lurk5::lurk5::grouphug:

[Janice in NJ]

Rhonda,

I wise that I could hug you!!!!!
Thanks.
You've said so many great things. Wise things.
Thanks.
Janice

[Rhondabee]

You too, babe! You too!

(You mean you didn't recognize some of that?)

[8FillTheHeart]

Hi Janice,

I'm too tired to read through all the replies, but I did read your first 2 posts. FWIW, this is where I have come out in the mix over the yrs........

With my oldest I wanted to do all things and make sure he covered all things and we read, read, read, wrote, wrote, wrote, worked, worked, worked.

I am still a very hard teacher with expectations of their highest quality output. However, and this is where I have made serious adjustments to my high school level material, I am spending more time exploring deep and less time covering "more, more, more."

For example, I have already purchased/planned my rising 10th grader's history and lit for next yr. Whereas with my oldest we covered over 20 novels as well as short stories, poetry, etc, my dd is going to read a fraction of that number. We are going to spend more time on each novel and savor it vs. rushing on to the next.

I haven't the WTM section to which you are referring, but my output for my students in history is "big picture" connection type info, not knowledge based names, dates, locations, etc. We do Socratic type discussions and they write essays. (That is not a change from my oldest.....I have always taught that way.)

High school is going to fly by. Make sure you leave enough time to enjoy your older people, too!

[Janice in NJ]

Rhonda,

Gotta run this morning. But I did want to address this before I dash off.

You quoted me:
...But they aren't growing at all. Not the way I think they should.

And then you so kindly responded:
Janice, this concerns me. OK - maybe they're not growing the way you wish they would. But, not at all? I *know* that can't be true! Don't put on blinders to all the good that you have done, and are doing! That's not fair to you or to your children.

I just wanted to let you know that I hear you. Yes, my kids are growing. I'm (almost) sure that in the end they will be fine. What I meant was that unless I require regular, specific output of my kids in each subject, they don't grow. THAT's why I've slowly, steadily, but still somewhat reluctantly grown into a much more "schoolish" mode around here. Input. Study. Output.

But I don't like it. It scratches at me.
It takes a lot of time. It feels so uninspired so much of this time. So plodding. Sometimes it feels like we are serving an unseen god who is never going to care about all of our service. Our hard work will boil down to a single piece of paper that looks like every other piece of paper - all in an endless heap of "Darn! I should have done it differently. Why was I so driven!":001_smile:

And yes, sometimes I wonder if like so many of the moms who have chimed in here, I wonder if I will grow to regret it. I don't HAVE a bunch of little ones coming up through the ranks; no 2nd chances to do things in a more purposeful yet relaxed and peaceful way. My kids will be in 7th, 9th, and 11th grade next year; they are all clumped together. And nearly everything is all planned out for the fall. The schedule is made; they are signed up for on-line classes where they need to be; materials are nearly all in place. And yes. It's all very output driven.

So THANKS for the concern, Rhonda. Yes, I do see progress. Lots of it. :001_smile: Sometimes I just wonder if the price tag is too high! I long for smoother days and a more natural-feeling rhythm.

Peace,
Janice

Enjoy your little people
Enjoy your journey
(I truly write this often in order to remind MYSELF to do this. :001_smile:)

[Rhondabee]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: :grouphug:

I'm sorry if I hurt you, Janice. That was *so* not my intention!

The new WTM is here, and I honestly think there is a step missing in the "How To" section. The last step is for the student to write down a few things/people he'd like to explore further, but I haven't seen where the student does anything with this list.

Hmmmmm.....

[Janice in NJ]

Hurt me? No way!!!! Don't you be silly, girlfriend!!!!! :001_smile:

I just didn't want you to think that I was in a complete funk. All's well. I'm just trying to make it better, you know? :001_smile:

Your comments were received in the same warm spirit that I know you sent them in. All's well!

Friendships here mean so, so much!

Peace to you and yours this morning, Rhonda!
Janice

[Janice in NJ]

Rhonda said, "I haven't seen where the student does anything with this list."

Me either.

Left me wondering and feeling like we are working waaaaaaay too hard!

Sure, it's more coverage of official "history" than in the old editions which leads me to believe that experience has taught Susan and Jessie that like grammar, history still needs focused attention at the high school level. Just as the old editions argued that the high school student should continue with grammar, rather than let it just play a supportive role to writing, I am assuming that the reasoning is that history shouldn't just play a supportive role to the GB, but should be studied on its own.

That seems to be where the argument is heading. But obviously I'm just guessing. Hopefully Susan and Jessie will chime in.

But the thing that I don't get is that the GB section goes on to indicate that the student should study 8 - 18 GB as before. And this now has to be done in only the one hour a day. The other hour is focused on the history reading project. Obviously lots of wiggle room here. I am NOT trying to be a legalist! I don't need to be told what to do because I probably won't do it anyway. ;) But I would like to understand the goals here, the reasoning. It helps me re-think my goals and reasoning which is very healthy for me! The way the chapter currently reads seems like the manuscript went through a cut and paste. A shift in method, surely. But TWTM has always done a great job in helping me understand the why's behind the method. I just don't feel like I understand the why behind the shift; so I can't tell if it's for me. (Weak I know! I should KNOW what I want by now.) BUT this huh? left me looking through the rest of the R section which eventually moved me to the conclusion that started this whole big long ramble. I'm not doing anything by the book.

Hence all of the rambling...... ya-da, ya-da, ya-da :001_smile:

I will say that I LOVE the narratives that she has chosen on pgs 490 - 491. And I do think it is wise to expose the student to more Non-Western material. I appreciate the Asian title suggested - ordered a used copy as soon as I received the book. I do wish that there were more history book lists at the R level - like the other levels. But I guess I don't really need them; I've made my own. :001_smile:

I don't love Spielvogel either (see pg 780), but I would like to see a western-centered narrative on pgs 514-515. I've ordered Morgan's text from the library; maybe that will do the trick. I've found Roberts to be too brief for each era. Maybe the DK Visual suggested in the 8th grade list is my best bet; I do love that book!

I really just feel like we need more output at this level. BUT I'm trying to listen! I have to admit that we probably work too hard around here. Zaps a bit at the nerves; I'm not stubborn enough to believe that I should ignore the voices of reason in my life. And I would like more time to sit around and read next year - we used to read and share so much together. Now everyone spends so much time working on their own. I can't help but feel that we traded vibrancy and enthusiasm in our educational model for a paper trail. And I am drawn to the idea of a simple spine. Less jumping around; that rattles me and makes me feel like I need to do more to supply coherence.

AND I do know first-hand how this could work. Maybe that's the trouble. :001_smile: Just this week ds and I read aloud from Tindall's book regarding the battle in Brooklyn during the summer of 1776. We stopped with the American army backed into a corner against the East River. We hauled out the maps and chatted back and forth and then I sent him off to read a portion of McCullough's Illustrated 1776. "You're going to love this story," I told him. "It reads like great fiction. Only it's true."

I went onto something else and wandered back to see what he was doing 45 minutes later. He was on the computer with the headphones.
"What are you doing? I thought you were supposed to be reading!" I asked.
"Oh, I finished reading the chapter. What a great story. I'm watching a Teaching Company lecture; I want to hear what he has to say about it."

He went and pulled that lecture set [Guelzo's American Revolution] off the shelf and scanned the titles to find THAT lecture - on his own!!! THAT doesn't happen when I plan "history lessons." (Although he does like Guelzo. "This guy is great, Mom.") So I totally get how the mostly read/explore system COULD work. I think that's what bugging me. Yes, it could work for us. But will it? Can I LET it!!!!!??????!!!!!!

Sometimes I swear that I just don't have the temperament for this project! I am SUCH a rule-follower; I disgust myself - WHY am I SUCH a WIMP????!!!!! I swear this project is the hardest thing I have ever tried to do. I am just not naturally cut out for this kind of life. I am such a control-freak!!!!!
Janice

Enjoy your little people
Enjoy your journey

[JennW in SoCal]

Janice,

I really appreciate your honesty in this thread.

And I wish that we could somehow share our over-riding homeschooling traits. I am sooooooo NOT a rule follower! I'm a total rebel and err on the side of allowing and encouraging lots of exploration and discovery. What I really need is to spend more structured time on math especially. If somehow we could trade off some of these traits we'd each become the perfect homeschooling moms!

I think you are doing a great job, and will continue to do what is best for your homeschool. Thanks for the thought-provoking thread.

[ksva]

Further, I sometimes feel that parents who post something are looking for a pat on the back which may or not be deserved. .


:eek: Yikes. So is that what people are thinking when I post the random paper of one of our dc? I usually have no idea how good they are or aren't. I just pick the most 'fun' ones in hopes of giving someone a chuckle or two as we go about the very serious business of hs'ing. Maybe other parents don't post more because they think this is how it comes across, too. Such a loss. I'd really love to see those papers, myself. Oh well.

[Cedarmom]

What a fascinating discussion. I realize that I have never even tried the method of letting him explore history on his own. We have always supplemented with various spines and Teaching Company. For the most part, my son has enjoyed this. I wonder how it would work if I just let him decide what he wants to explore. I think my hesitation is the output, I could see my son meaning to research at the library and just not getting it. I would have to have definite due dates and expectations. But then you would have to be flexible, if they really are digging into something, to give them long enough to wrok on it.

I would love to hear from people who actually do it this way. Especially if you have kids that are not necessarily self motivators. How does it work in practice? How much guidance to you give your kids?

[Dulcimeramy]

:eek: Yikes. So is that what people are thinking when I post the random paper of one of our dc? I usually have no idea how good they are or aren't. I just pick the most 'fun' ones in hopes of giving someone a chuckle or two as we go about the very serious business of hs'ing. Maybe other parents don't post more because they think this is how it comes across, too. Such a loss. I'd really love to see those papers, myself. Oh well.

I'm with you! LOL

For the younger grades I wish I could share my child's work because it is cute or funny or original. I love to see the efforts of any beginning writer! I'd love to see how other homeschooled little ones are writing, too.

For grades 6 and up, I'm usually feeling clueless and in need of bolstering.

The last time I needed support I was careful to include exactly what I was looking for: help in editing punctuation. I did get more replies, maybe because I was obviously in need of help and therefore not possibly bragging.

It has been so good to listen in on this thread! I don't have many mentors on the path in front of me. I have a few, but they only talk about success! I wouldn't be scared to hear their insecurities and uncertainties. In fact, I find it helpful.

[Jane in NC]

:eek: Yikes. So is that what people are thinking when I post the random paper of one of our dc? I usually have no idea how good they are or aren't. I just pick the most 'fun' ones in hopes of giving someone a chuckle or two as we go about the very serious business of hs'ing. Maybe other parents don't post more because they think this is how it comes across, too. Such a loss. I'd really love to see those papers, myself. Oh well.

I am sorry if you feel insulted for it was not my intention to single out you or anyone on this particular board. Perhaps my vagary led you to make this assumption.

While I often enjoy reading papers that have been posted, I find it awkward to attempt a fair assessment of a particular piece given my lack of familiarity with the specifics of the assignment or the student's larger body of work. That is the greater point that I was attempting to make when answering the question posed by a participant in this thread.

Please take no offence.

Jane

[Dulcimeramy]

I am sorry if you feel insulted for it was not my intention to single out you or anyone on this particular board. Perhaps my vagary led you to make this assumption.

While I often enjoy reading papers that have been posted, I find it awkward to attempt a fair assessment of a particular piece given my lack of familiarity with the specifics of the assignment or the student's larger body of work. That is the greater point that I was attempting to make when answering the question posed by a participant in this thread.

Please take no offence.

Jane

I can't speak for kvsa, Jane, but should tell you that I was not offended in the least.

Your explanation is quite reasonable! You made several points I had not considered, and I feel much better about the lack of response on some of my sharing threads.

[ksva]

I am sorry if you feel insulted for it was not my intention to single out you or anyone on this particular board. Perhaps my vagary led you to make this assumption.

While I often enjoy reading papers that have been posted, I find it awkward to attempt a fair assessment of a particular piece given my lack of familiarity with the specifics of the assignment or the student's larger body of work. That is the greater point that I was attempting to make when answering the question posed by a participant in this thread.

Please take no offence.

Jane

Nope, not insulted or offended. Just curious if others were thinking the same as you are when they see dc's papers posted. Maybe I should have parapharased vs quoted. Sorry. :blushing:

[Jane in NC]

I can't speak for kvsa, Jane, but should tell you that I was not offended in the least.

Your explanation is quite reasonable! You made several points I had not considered, and I feel much better about the lack of response on some of my sharing threads.

Nope, not insulted or offended. Just curious if others were thinking the same as you are when they see dc's papers posted. Maybe I should have parapharased vs quoted. Sorry. :blushing:

Whew!! Sometimes cyberspace can be a little chilly, ya know? I try very hard not to offend but misinterpretation happens.

Thanks Dulcimeramy and ksva for your response.

Jane