Discipline: Please help me figure out what is appropriate

[RoughCollie]

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[Mrs Mungo]

If your son has Asperger's then being around other kids isn't going to cure him of his social awkwardness. Does he want to be in school or would he rather be home? If school is going to weigh on him and discourage him, I would hesitate to leave him there. That said, I would talk to my husband and see about coming up with a different measure of success. Instead of judging the children on their grades, I would suggest judging them on 60% applying themselves and 40% on the grade itself. Re-evaluating the situation isn't a sign of weakness or bad parenting.

[JudoMom]

From what you've said, I think you need to reevaluate. I think ds2 should be exempt from this punishment. If he has indeed done all that is required of him, yet for some reason cannot make the same academic grades as his siblings, he should not be punished--it's out of his control.

As far as how to handle it with the other siblings--that's hard. My boys have often thought ds5 has been given special treatment and they have a hard time understanding the physical problems that ds5 has (he has arthritis). Sometimes they are empathetic and other times they are annoyed. We just do our best to explain it to them, we do our best not to let ds5 use it as an excuse to not do his best, and we pray they will understand.

(((RC)))

[Stirsmommy]

Well when I was younger it irritated the tar out of me that I was always grounded after report cards when it seemed like nobody else was who had similar grades. I hated hear that I wasn't living to my potential. But you know what my parents were actually right about it. It would have been unfair to others to force them to try to meet a goal that was unrealistic. At the same time I really needed to start putting some effort into the process. So although I know that the other two will be upset I think your one should be let off the hook if he is performing his best. Everyone's best is different. You will probably need to meet with each of them individually and explain a bit of your rationale. They will still hate it. As my children can quote me as saying "life isn't fair. Life's rough get a helmet." We have a lot of unfairitis since we have 3 kids ages 7- 18. Someone always has it better.

[Tracey in TX]

"Life isn't always equitable, but it's always fair" is what I tell my kiddos when they don't like different expectations placed on them.

Why should A have to spend little mental energy to produce results, when C works thrice as hard for lesser results? It's as much about effort as the final result. We aren't all created equal. Some have natural beauty; others brains. Would we expect everyone to run a mile in under 8 minutes because that's the arbitrary goal? Probably not.

I want to know the kids CARE about their grades. They need to own their grades and the knowledge. The progress report should show what they've learned. Unfortunately it usually shows how well a child tests on said material.

I also have triplets, plus two others (2 & 3 years older). Each has a gift, and most have a challenge they're faced with. Expectations are similar, but not identical. I use Becky Dilley's "unplugged" as motivation. It's brilliant b/c it goes beyond 'screen time'. Depending on the child, it may include no phone privileges, curling iron hour, or motor scooter. :)

We've considered taking a sport away from a suspect child, but makes me wonder if it's completely counterproductive. If that's DC's "gift", then I'm taking away the thing which offers valid self-esteem, quality work ethic, and a team mentality for typically a punitive reason.

Would challenging DS to a % improvement be more effective than an absolute grade expectation? ie if he gets 79% average, could he shoot for an 8% improvement, etc?

Good luck and let us know what you decide,

[Remudamom]

I'm with everyone else. He shouldn't be held to the same blanket standards. And I'd be tempted to respond to any whines of favoritism with my favorite... "Well, I like so and so better than I do you." When our kids hear this they know that I'm teasing, but they also know that it's time for them to straighten up their act.

When our kids cry foul or unfair the first thing that happens is a long talk about being covetous, and sometimes a decrease of what they want more of.

[Danestress]

Well, maybe this is easier said than done, but a lot of time I just say, "You know what? My house, my rules. Sorry you don't like them. You will be outta here soon enough, and I will miss you dreadfully. But this is my rule."

I don't think you need DS1 or DD's permission to decide what is best for DS2. You just announce the way it is, and let them cope with supposed extreme unfairness of the situation.

I would try to talk again with the other children about DS's special needs. I think they are old enough to hear the results of the testing and to understand how that might make expectations are different. But I wouldn't belabor it. You present reasonable explanations, but don't expect kids this age to accept reason. They might not. They might not accept any reason you give them because no reason is good enough for them, and that's okay. They don't have to agree with you. But your house, your rules.

[Joanne]

I'm a bit perplexed at your approach in general.

DD & DS1 are there because I expelled them from hs for not cooperating.

I have personally been exceedingly careful to never use "outside the home" schooling as a threat, discipline tool or even an option. Homeschooling is not a privilege; it's a choice my xh and I made for the education of our children. My children do not have to like or appreciate it. Indeed, I don't expect them to understand the choice for many years to come.

I also don't believe in institutional education as a discipline tool.

DS2 is there because DH thinks he needs to be around other kids because he is shy.

As an introvert, I've always literally cringed upon hearing this. Not everyone is going to enjoy being around groups of people for hours daily. So-called "shy" children need support, some social coaching and vocabulary to express who they are. They do not need to be made into "not shy" people. There is nothing inherently better about "not shy". A child needs to grow into an adult who can have appropriate relationships and conversations. They can learn that with the committed and gentle coaching of engaged adults. For many "shy" kids, being immersed in school is a stressor and for no reason, IMO.

Not every kid is a A B kid. If they were, the grading system would be pointless. I'm typically against any "discipline" (read: punishment) that :

1) Punishes me
2) Limits healthy chanelling of kid energy

Well chosen organized sports, friendships and reacreational activites are not "privileges", IMO. They are removed quickly as a punishment (sometimes called motivation) but often all it does is create resentment. It also stops the child from having a well rounded life. Children *need* a well rounded life; even when they are not behaving up to our expectations.

I'd bring everyone home (there's a surprise), re-evaluate my approach to parenting and embark on a journey of rich learning; both formal academics and character.

[Jan in SC]

My children are much younger, but I would not discuss the grade or punishment of one child with the other children. That is between you and the child. Obviously they could discuss among themselves, but I would find a penalty for that as well.

[RoughCollie]

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[RoughCollie]

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[Karin]

If your son has Asperger's then being around other kids isn't going to cure him of his social awkwardness. Does he want to be in school or would he rather be home? If school is going to weigh on him and discourage him, I would hesitate to leave him there. .

100 percent agreement here. If he does get diagnosed, I'd consider all options. Martha Kennedy Hartnetts's book Choosing Home and the late (or so I heard, please correct me if he's still alive!) Tony Attwood's books, plus Unwritten Rules of Social Relationships. I also recommend taking this diagnosis with a grain of salt along with the whole controversial spectrum discussion. The diagnosis can be helpful to help your son, but in the school system people will usually try to put kids with this diagnosis a box he may or may not belong in as this is, IMO, an umbrella diagnosis, espcially if it turns out his situation is caused or aggravated by things such as allergies and sensitivities. I realize that premature birth can be a huge factor and know of a set of triplets where the dd has autism as a result. Their surprise was that it was her as one of their sons had hydrocephaly, but he's fine now, just has a noticeably larger head than most.

[Lisa at Home]

That's what we say. We're not communists, and we don't all get the same stuff. (I hope you don't read anything into that statement.)

I think the OP needs individualized rules for the individuals in her family.

Best wishes,

~Lisa

[RoughCollie]

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[Eliana]

Since the decision was made by your husband, as I understand your post, where does he stand on making an exception for ds#2?

If he's on board with that, I would recommend clarifying/altering your family policy *before* the kids get their next report cards, so the announcement is separate from imposition of the consequences.

I would consider adding a disclaimer that these penalties will be imposed if grades are below ___ unless there is a valid explanation/justification.

Personally, I think that evaluating performance based on grades is inherently unjust and unreasonable. I expect my children to be able to tell me they have done their honest best at whatever they are doing, academic, religious, personal, recreational. I believe that training children to be grade focused is a serious mistake and teaches them all the wrong priorities.

It also seems to me that you have some significant relationship/parenting issues with dd and ds#1. It sounds as if you have so much to deal with and with very little spousal support... and I'm sure you have given all of this much care and thought, but, sweetie, I am concerned by the relationships you are describing with them. It sounds as if something is broken.

Separate from school issues, do you have strong relationships with them? Do they talk with you about their lives, their fears, hopes, dreams, and their day-to-day struggles? Do you have time to bond with them? My kids those ages still need snuggles and a lot of support. These are really *hard* ages. It is so hard to be a young teen, and they need to know that you are on their side. They need to feel and see that you are trying to guide them so that they can lead stable, happy adult lives - that even when you are 'mean', you're doing it for their long-term benefit.


with caring and concern,

Eliana

[RoughCollie]

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[PariSarah]

I am concerned about whether I am being unjust.

Well, since my ds gets about an hour of screen time a month, I obviously don't think that a life with little or no screen time is a hard life. :D I think you're very generous with screen time, and there's no injustice in dialing back your generosity because it's being abused.

And there's no injustice in different standards for different abilities. So, yes, I'd cut out screen time (and other privileges) for the slackers in a heartbeat. In fact, I'd worry more about what it says to your ds2 that you don't "expect" as much from him. Would that crush his spirit?


Frankly, the boys will be in 9th grade next year, and that is when the grades start to count for college admissions and scholarships. They will needlessly and heedlessly be throwing away lots of potential opportunities if they continue to take the lazy way out.

This is a tougher point, and one I struggle with.

A couple of questions: if you take away screen time, will they choose to do a better job on their homework? Is it a matter of distraction (I'd rather be doing something more fun) or apathy (I don't care about school at all)? I'm never sure that restricting privileges will do anything about the latter. It works very well for the former, no question. But does it get kids to care about something? I don't know.

As a former expert in doing "just enough," I have to say that I'm not sure anything my parents could have done would have changed my behavior. It was only when I had something that I passionately cared about that I did better than "just enough."

Is there anything your lazybones care about? Something real and important? Sure, your dd cares about socializing, and that's a bad thing. Is there anything good and worthwhile that she cares about? Can you tap into that at all? Make that a bigger part of her life, and make socializing a smaller part? I wouldn't try to tie it to their schoolwork--I just mean can you find *anything* worthwhile that they're willing to work for? Even if they're not willing to work for school, working hard for something is a skill they should practice.

[RoughCollie]

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[Denise in IN]

If DS #2 has a good attitude toward school and is putting forth his best effort or a level of effort that you are satisfied with, then discipling him for the resulting grades means he is being punished for something he really can't control. If he receives the "no screen time", what would you tell him he needs to do differently? I think you would simply be discouraging him and putting him in a "no win" situation.

As far as the "fairness", I would not let a decision be ruled by that. Each child has individual needs and strengths and can be treated as such. Children need to learn that sooner, rather than later. Don't let yourself be caught in that one!

A couple of other things I would challenge you to consider. One is the length of the discipline - 12 weeks. It's hard for kids to really "pay attention" to a potential consequence that isn't going to happen for a while (at the end of the grading period can be a long ways off for that age), and it's hard to have "hope" for things changing when the length of the consequence goes on for such a long time. Plus, you're taking away the option for you to use the "screen time consequence" for a long time.

The other thing is the concept of displining (or rewarding) for grades. Honestly, you're teaching your smart kids to "just get by", because they think they can do that and still get good grades. If you desire changes in their motivation and effort, then that is what you need to focus on. I realize that grades are more concrete and easier to measure, but as long as that's the focus I don't think you'll see changes in their effort.

[Michelle T]

[QUOTE=RoughCollie;76017]Here are the facts in a nutshell. DS1 and DD were not learning anything because they refused to do their schoolwork for 6 months. All privileges were taken away for 4 months and that did not faze them. Thus, they were expelled by me. We elected to send them to a parochial school because the class sizes were small (12 students), the textbooks they were using met our approval. For these two, DH & I agreed this would be preferable to a homeschool in which they were purposely learning *nothing*.

If DS1 and DD refused to do no schoolwork for six months, even after having all privileges taken away for four months, then how is taking away screen privileges for 12 weeks going to make a difference? I'm thinking that you and DH need to find a new consequence, as the removal of privileges hasn't been successful.

As for DS 2, I certainly wouldn't hold him to the same standard. If he's doing his best, that's his best, and he shouldn't be penalized. The other two might think it's unfair, but so is life.

Michelle T

[Karin]

I know that going to parochial school won't cure DS of what ails him. He wants to stay there so far, and it is 100% his choice. We are not sure where he will go to school next year, but I suspect we will have him return to HS.


If he's happy there, I say let him stay the year out, for sure! As for the consequence, that's a tough one, but I tell my kids that life isn't fair, it's principle. I'd reward or give consequences based on effort in this case.

I don't think 12 weeks is too long, because that gives them time to up their grades before earning screen time back. We give way, way, way less screen time than you do, btw, so I thought I'd let you know I'm biased. My kids get too cranky.:)

[RoughCollie]

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[Karin]

I agree with you.
I am concerned about whether I am being unjust. I don't want to come down too hard on my kids due to my own frustrations with their behavior -- but I do want them to change their behavior because it is not good for them in the long run.
Frankly, the boys will be in 9th grade next year, and that is when the grades start to count for college admissions and scholarships. They will needlessly and heedlessly be throwing away lots of potential opportunities if they continue to take the lazy way out.

Well, having been a hg kid who lazed my way though ps, I can honestly say that grades didn't end up mattering for my career choice (homeschooling my kids.) I'd also seriously consider reading about colleges that focus on the student, not the marks. I keep forgetting the main title of a good book on this, but the subtitle is "40 Colleges that Make a Difference." Your kids might not come into their own until they're on their own. I would like to add that I got much higher marks in my second degree because I knew how to work by then, knew how to relax when I needed to and was more motivated.

[RoughCollie]

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[j.griff]

I agree with you.

I'm not worried about unfairness, per se. I tell my kids that life is unfair. If they belabor the point, I tell them that the reason X is getting such "fair" treatment is that X is my favorite child, obviously. The kids know I'm joking, but they do get the point.

I also tell them, my house, my rules. They know that when they have their own homes they can make the rules. Until then, this is not a democracy.

I am concerned about whether I am being unjust. I don't want to come down too hard on my kids due to my own frustrations with their behavior -- but I do want them to change their behavior because it is not good for them in the long run.
Frankly, the boys will be in 9th grade next year, and that is when the grades start to count for college admissions and scholarships. They will needlessly and heedlessly be throwing away lots of potential opportunities if they continue to take the lazy way out.

:( Big fat red alarms going off at your first statement here, yes your dc MAY "know" that you are kidding, but that does NOT mean you are not causing a bit of sibling rivalry in this situation by making such statements.
I highly encourage you to read the book Siblings Without Rivalry- maybe the suggestions in it will help you with the dynamics in your household. But please, please, please stop telling the other dc that ds2 is your 'favorite'.

Also, I believe that if you desire change in your DC, then you will need to make LOTS of changes yourself- you may need to "babysit" them while they do their school work (whether attending school away from home or HSing).
I'd read the GOYB parenting site and try to find ways to apply that concept to teens. Hugs, I know this must be terribly frustrating for you.
(((((((((())))))))))

[j.griff]

Also, WHY is your DH mandating consequences for you to have to enforce with the DC?

[Cadam]

My parents' rule was always that you had to try your best. Getting a B when I could have gotten an A was not acceptable. Working as hard as I could, getting a tutor, doing everything possible and getting a D was acceptable. Any class lower than a C had to be repeated.

So in my family of origin your oldest two would have been micromanaged if they got B's and ds 2 who have the B's and C's on his report card exclaimed over for having worked so hard.

Also, a kid on the spectrum needs a safe environment and a social skills class, defiantly not a school situation where he has to be constantly compared with a sibling who has a nearly photographic memory. Does he want to be in that school? I would use the tuition money for OT and a social skills class instead.

[RoughCollie]

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[Amy in Orlando]

Honestly, I was never cut out for this job. If I tell DH about the problems, he always has a solution that doesn't work because he has no idea what he is talking about, and if I get angry that the kids won't cooperate and he won't help me, he says I'm crazy and other mothers can do this, why can't I?

That's a darned good question. Why can't I? I have often felt like the situation is me against them, all of them, including DH.

I feel bad for all of you. I really think the problem is more with your dh not really backing you up in a reasonable way. It sounds like he has the final word in your house and the kids have definitely picked up on it. They know that if they disobey you nothing is really going to happen except that your dh is going to place the blame on you. Can you and dh have a long dinner, or better yet a day, together and you can try to make this clear to him in a nice way? I really believe that if he doesn't work with you and stand firmly behind you, you are going to continue to have problems. If your kids see him backing you up and supporting your decisions, I bet you'll see a big change in your kids.

Up until very recently, my dh worked 90+ hours a week and was never home. He really didn't have much of a clue about how the kids and I functioned day-in-day out. BUT, he also understood that since I was the one dealing with the boys all the time that it was my call. I did ask him for advice when things got really hairy, but mostly he just listened and let me talk things through. Sometimes he'd offer a solution, but usually it was something that would have been more of a punishment for me than for the kids. The biggest thing was that when the kids were around he supported my decisions 100%. If he did disagree with something I'd done, he waited until we were alone together to talk about it. I can't imagine my reaction if he had ever said something like "All the other mothers can do it." That's just mean and unfair, imo.

Good luck.

[Eliana]

.
Honestly, I was never cut out for this job. If I tell DH about the problems, he always has a solution that doesn't work because he has no idea what he is talking about, and if I get angry that the kids won't cooperate and he won't help me, he says I'm crazy and other mothers can do this, why can't I?

That's a darned good question. Why can't I?


Oh, sweetheart! You sound so worn down! I wish I knew how to help...
my instinct is that the most important thing is to create or strengthen your relationships with the kids... separate from all the stuff that has to gets done or the chaos they are creating.

This is hard because it sounds as if you have been behind the eight ball from the beginning in so many ways.

I have twins so I have some small sense of how intense triplets must have been, especially with a less involved dh, but my twins were my 5th and 6th kids, so it was a lot easier.

If I were in your situation, I think I would focus on creating stronger connections with the kids, on reminding myself of all their wonderful traits. Perhaps you could have some 1:1 once a week, each week with a different kid, so you could get away from the to-do lists and the other kids and build more of a connection. I would try to catch them doing things right... in fact, I'd try to think of them almost as toddlers (and in some ways adolescence is a second toddlerhood) and build trust, relationship, positive experiences - basically create a foundation in their hearts that you can build on.

Obedience (other than out of fear) comes from love and respect and a desire to please a parent and from trust. As we set guidelines for our teens we need them to trust us, to trust that we are seeing a bigger picture, that we have wisdom and experience that can help guide them on their road to adulthood.

And, sweetie, we all struggle sometimes, really! Being a mother is *hard*, and these kidlets of ours don't come with manuals or instruction booklets. Of course you are overwhelmed! I feel overwhelmed reading your posts... and you don't have a marriage in which you get support for these things.

Dads/husbands don't get an instruction book either, they're making up as they go along the same way we are. Each marriage is unique and if this is just how things are with your dh, then just go on loving him and appreciating all the wonderful things about him... but if you think he might be open to trying new approaches, see if you can get him involved in this bonding project too.

You might also consider: some guys respond to their dw's unhappiness or worries or requests for support by trying to leap in and throw a solution at the problem. It can be helpful if you are more specific about what you want - backup when there are disciplinary issues, 1:1 times with the kids for each of you, or even just telling him that you want to vent! (My dad is this way)

Other guys are good at supportive listening and respond well to specific requests for input, but if you *want* someone to throw a solution at the mean nasty problem, you sometimes have to mention it (my dh is a bit like this - I have to *tell* him if I'm trying to dump a problem in his lap, otherwise he assumes we're doing the team thing.)

And last, but definitely not least, you *can* do this, Collie, dear! You have a lot of challenges and at some point you might want to consult a therapist or other expert type with experience advising people to see if you can get some more specific suggestions about how to create a famiyl dynamic you can enjoy, but you are dedicated to your family, you have strength and courage and a loving heart - you can do this!

Eliana

[Michelle T]

I do babysit them. I am never alone. DH says I need to stick to the DC constantly, every minute, but he doesn't realize how difficult that is for one person to do with 4 kids.


Honestly, I was never cut out for this job. If I tell DH about the problems, he always has a solution that doesn't work because he has no idea what he is talking about, and if I get angry that the kids won't cooperate and he won't help me, he says I'm crazy and other mothers can do this, why can't I?


(((RoughCollie))))
It sounds like there are issues going on far beyond your kids not wanting to do school. I'm sorry that you have to deal with this.

Michelle T

[Amy in Orlando]

You might also consider: some guys respond to their dw's unhappiness or worries or requests for support by trying to leap in and throw a solution at the problem. It can be helpful if you are more specific about what you want - backup when there are disciplinary issues, 1:1 times with the kids for each of you, or even just telling him that you want to vent! (My dad is this way)

Other guys are good at supportive listening and respond well to specific requests for input, but if you *want* someone to throw a solution at the mean nasty problem, you sometimes have to mention it (my dh is a bit like this - I have to *tell* him if I'm trying to dump a problem in his lap, otherwise he assumes we're doing the team thing.)

And last, but definitely not least, you *can* do this, Collie, dear! You have a lot of challenges and at some point you might want to consult a therapist or other expert type with experience advising people to see if you can get some more specific suggestions about how to create a famiyl dynamic you can enjoy, but you are dedicated to your family, you have strength and courage and a loving heart - you can do this!

Eliana

Eliana said it so much better and so much more nicely than I did. ((()))