TOG users, have you, do you or do you plan to use the rhetoric level?

[melmac]

I've been really focused on getting my 5th grader's schedule together for year one and am just now paying attention to and looking through the rhetoric level.

I've always planned to do what SWB suggests in TWTM for high school history, but loved the idea of being able to use TOG twice and had sort of convinced myself that we would use TOG again. Having flipped through it, though, now I'm not so sure. I have noticed that a lot of books used in the dialectic level are repeated for rhetoric. And I haven't noticed any great books.

So, maybe I've missed something. I really have just flipped through it. I would love to hear your opinions on TOG Rhetoric vs TWTM Rhetoric. What do you think? TIA

[HappyGrace]

I have not used and do not own TOG, but I have looked at samples, etc., extensively over the years as I plan to do it in Dialectic and Rhetoric, and I would hazard a guess that you have the Classic, and not the Redesign? They did repeat a lot of books from Dialectic to Rhetoric in the Classic, but I believe and it looks like they have remedied that in the Redesign. It was something I had noticed in the Classic and did not like either! Hopefully someone else will chime in more about this who has used it!

[siloam]

I have not used and do not own TOG, but I have looked at samples, etc., extensively over the years as I plan to do it in Dialectic and Rhetoric, and I would hazard a guess that you have the Classic, and not the Redesign? They did repeat a lot of books from Dialectic to Rhetoric in the Classic, but I believe and it looks like they have remedied that in the Redesign. It was something I had noticed in the Classic and did not like either! Hopefully someone else will chime in more about this who has used it!

I agree that the Classic seems to repeat books, but between the book list in the Redesign having more options and the alternates list being longer, I wouldn't think you would run out of material.

I do plan to use it through Rhetoric.

Heather

[melmac]

You are correct, I have Classic. I was where you are once upon a time and I bought all four years used, not knowing there would be a redesign. I'm pretty much stuck with it, as I couldn't possibly afford to replace it with the new version. Thanks for your help. :)

I have not used and do not own TOG, but I have looked at samples, etc., extensively over the years as I plan to do it in Dialectic and Rhetoric, and I would hazard a guess that you have the Classic, and not the Redesign? They did repeat a lot of books from Dialectic to Rhetoric in the Classic, but I believe and it looks like they have remedied that in the Redesign. It was something I had noticed in the Classic and did not like either! Hopefully someone else will chime in more about this who has used it!

[melmac]

Am I correct in thinking you use Classic? If not, my apologies. How do you get a book list for redesign to accompany the Classic? TIA

I agree that the Classic seems to repeat books, but between the book list in the Redesign having more options and the alternates list being longer, I wouldn't think you would run out of material.

I do plan to use it through Rhetoric.

Heather

[Karenciavo]

Until TOG came out with Redesign my plan was to use Omnibus. If you prefer TWTM method go for it.

[melmac]

At this point, I'm not sure which I prefer. That's what I'm trying to figure out, LOL. :) Thanks for your help.

Until TOG came out with Redesign my plan was to use Omnibus. If you prefer TWTM method go for it.

[Melabella]

Isn't there some sort of credit when you trade in a Classic for a Redesigned? Maybe even 1/2 price.

[siloam]

Am I correct in thinking you use Classic? If not, my apologies. How do you get a book list for redesign to accompany the Classic? TIA

I own Classic years 2-4 and Redesign years 1-3. Most of it I bought used, but I was able to upgrade years 2 and 3 while they were still allowing a 50% discount for people who had purchased used-they don't allow that anymore.

You can get the redesign list from the bookshelf, but it won't tell you exactly what week it belongs in. You would have to puzzle that out on your own.

I also have a tendency to grow attached to books that aren't in TOG and add them in anyway. For example for year 1 I will use MOH, and I have scheduled it myself. In other words I mess with and redo anything I use, so messing a bit with TOG is just more of the same.

Heather

[Bayt ul-Hikmah]

As someone completely unfamiliar with TOG, I was under the impression that one of the main reasons people love TOG so much is because of the rhetoric stage? I often hear that people use TOG for grammar stage to prepare for dialectic, or dialectic to prepare for rhetoric (to become familiar with the program) because TOG offers so much for the upper levels. Am I completely off-base?

[melmac]

Thanks everybody! :)

[momee]

Where's Barb at harmony art?? She's said on her blog something about preferring classic for the future, if I remember correctly, over redesign.

We're using the redesign. It is very intense as written. It takes alot of our school week's effort. There are a ton of great books! In fact TWTM list and TOG lists look alot alike.

Our issue with classic was sometimes answers were tough to find in the reading material as assigned. They've tried very hard to address that with redesign. I am using it with a good number of kids and felt it was prudent to upgrade.

You can read on the boards here a ton about redesign and it's value over classic, but since you have classic already, you may be better served reading some of Barb's stuff on her blog about it. There are quite a few classic users and there is a section for classic users on the TOG community board. You may want to ask some specifics there.

HTH

oh yes, the issue of everyone braggin on rhetoric - it is incredible but using all the levels, I think it is amazing at bringing middle schoolers up to the level needed to digest the great books
I'd love to see some less history oriented literature for the little guys, but there's plenty of sources for that.

[melmac]

Right now, I'm really struggling between doing TOG or just doing SOTW again with Kingfisher and book list from TWTM for my 5th grader, R & S Bible Study and something for geography. I feel like I'm really being pulled towards the SOTW path more than TOG. This, after spending weeks putting together a schedule for TOG.

What are the major advantages of using TOG instead? I realize there is tons of Literature, almost an overwhelming amount. Lots of suggestions for geography activities, but no recommendation of any books to use for them. Lots of Bible reading. I don't know.

The Discussion questions are nice to have, the book choices for all levels in one place is nice, too. I'm just really struggling with this decison.

I'd love to hear anyone's opinions. I'm really trying hard to decide and would appreciate any help.

[Shari]

I have TOG Classic Years 1-4. We are on our second trip through the four year cycle, currently in Year 2 Unit 1. My oldest is finishing fifth grade (having started TOG in 1st :)) and my younger is in third. I have spent the time that my youngers were at the Grammar level doing the entire D and R level myself (yes, I am an admitted bookaholic). So while I have not taught these levels, I am familiar with the books and assignments.

Rather than shell out more $$ for Redesign when it was announced three years ago, I decided to take that money and buy the books that were going oop from Classic. For the cost of buying a copy of Redesign with all the 'extras' that I really didn't want or need, I have been able to pick up almost every book used more than a couple of times for all four years of Classic.

A couple of observations I have regarding Classic -- especially the 'repeating' of assignments: there is a HUGE difference in maturity levels between D and R stage students. The level of understanding of a 12yo vs a 16yo are so, so different, you almost can't compare the two even reading from the exact same books. Aside from that, you could choose a different spine for the next time through the cycle if your student absolutely balked at re-reading a book. The R literature in Classic uses a lot of the Norton anthologies, which are college texts and imho more than adequate for a high school student.

To answer the original op question, I had planned to do TOG all the way through high school. Now our plan is to transition over to a traditional course for history/literature by the time each student hits grade 8. We will start BJU dvd's in the fall, but I will continue to teach TOG history and literature. My decision to change to a traditional schedule for high school is more to do with college admissions (transcripts) than any lacking or holes in TOG. I think it is a wonderful curriculum if you are looking for a literature based way to go.

[siloam]

As someone completely unfamiliar with TOG, I was under the impression that one of the main reasons people love TOG so much is because of the rhetoric stage? I often hear that people use TOG for grammar stage to prepare for dialectic, or dialectic to prepare for rhetoric (to become familiar with the program) because TOG offers so much for the upper levels. Am I completely off-base?

Yes, that is one of the reasons that won me over, the dialect and rhetoric level discussions. Though I use it at now not as preparation as much, but because I adore the integration of all the topics. For that reason I would probalby use it even if it didn't have the R level work.

In the classic version the book list was limited, and D and R levels overlapped quite a bit. In this case the original poster's children did TOG at the D level and read a good portion of the book used in the R level. She just doesn't want to repeat books, nor does she have the money to upgrade to the Redesign which includes more book options at both levels.

Heather

[melmac]

I have decided to use TOG and TWTM way together for logic stage. I'll most likely go TWTM way for HS (I still have four years to decide) :).

Thanks to everyone for your help.

[harmonyartmom]

Coming in very late on this one.....sorry I have been taking some time off. :)

I have written extensively about our TOG experience in the rhetoric level on my blog. If you are still interested you can read everything that I have written. All of my TOG posts are the left sidebar of my blog.

http://harmonyartmom.blogspot.com

[momee]

Melmac's questions in black:

Right now, I'm really struggling between doing TOG or just doing SOTW again with Kingfisher and book list from TWTM for my 5th grader, R & S Bible Study and something for geography. I feel like I'm really being pulled towards the SOTW path more than TOG. This, after spending weeks putting together a schedule for TOG.

My responses in red:
Join the crowd :) Kidding. Lots of us go through this one I think from reading the posts here. It's a bigger investment and it's more planning. You'd have to buy books or go to the library either way though. You'll find many happy customers of both. If there were no TOG, we'd be WTM'ing.

What are the major advantages of using TOG instead? I realize there is tons of Literature, almost an overwhelming amount. Lots of suggestions for geography activities, but no recommendation of any books to use for them. Lots of Bible reading. I don't know.

Advantage with TOG, you and your students would be familiar with the layout and the expectations by the time you were at the rhetoric level. I haven't found anything that compares (notes, booklists, worldview, gov't rdg, philosophy, etc).
Agreed there is an overwhelming amount of literature but there are also documents in TOG instructing us how to cut it down to meet your credit needs. Unfortunately I didn't find that until lately, BUT, with much gnashing of teeth, ds has almost done it all. I never thought he'd reach this level this early...and I'm super proud! Geography activities? It's thorough mapwork and there are book recommendations at the lower levels and upper ones (Bible atlas, picture books, etc.). The bible reading in year one has been amazing. My guys have basically gotten an overview of the Old Testament and have the historical understanding in which to place it all. I'm excited about the year 2 stuff. It's great coming through the cycles again and while the same goals could be reached with KF and SOTW, I've preferred TOG for the prep for rhetoric.
I personally need the multilevel approach. Too many reasons for that to list.
The Discussion questions are nice to have, the book choices for all levels in one place is nice, too. I'm just really struggling with this decison.
From what I've researched, TOG has the most extensive teacher's notes in one place. They equip me to be a knowledgeable teacher if I read them :) Without having to do the massive research for each and every topic included. I still struggle with our decision. With TOG, to do a good job, I have to be very involved in all of the processes, from planning to discussion of topics. I've gone back and forth on programs so maybe my response isn't helping at all. I wonder too about the AO idea of not getting between a student and the book vs. teaching analysis the TOG way. Can't help except to say even if I went with WTM or AO, I'd keep my TOG notes! They're very helpful.
And their alternates are amazing. Already read this, choose that. Don't like this one, choose that. All in one place.

I'd love to hear anyone's opinions. I'm really trying hard to decide and would appreciate any help.
These are off the cuff answers, if I can help anymore feel free to pm me. Reaserch the boards here, there's a ton of responses about TOG. Call TOG and ask too, they are amazingly helpful. I've used classic, dropped it, used it again with redesign, dropped it again, now back with it. Two kids love it, one kid hates it but wants to stay with it because he learns so much. Totally confused :) ????