Teens losing touch with common cultural and historical references

[*anj*]

Do you find this to be true? I know that I was familiar with these references when I was in high school, but I don't really know a lot of teens right now. Do those of you who regularly interact with high school aged students agree with this article?

Teens losing touch with common cultural and historical references
By Greg Toppo
USA TODAY
Big Brother. McCarthyism. The patience of Job.
Don't count on your typical teenager to nod knowingly the next time you drop a reference to any of these. A study out today finds that about half of 17-year-olds can't identify the books or historical events associated with them.
Twenty-five years after the federal report A Nation at Risk challenged U.S. public schools to raise the quality of education, the study finds high schoolers still lack important historical and cultural underpinnings of "a complete education." And, its authors fear, the nation's current focus on improving basic reading and math skills in elementary school might only make matters worse, giving short shrift to the humanities � even if children can read and do math.
"If you think it matters whether or not kids have common historical touchstones and whether, at some level, we feel like members of a common culture, then familiarity with this knowledge matters a lot," says American Enterprise Institute researcher Rick Hess, who wrote the study.
Among 1,200 students surveyed:
•43% knew the Civil War was fought between 1850 and 1900.
•52% could identify the theme of 1984.
•51% knew that the controversy surrounding Sen. Joseph McCarthy focused on communism.
In all, students earned a C in history and an F in literature, though the survey suggests students do well on topics schools cover. For instance, 88% knew the bombing of Pearl Harbor led the USA into World War II, and 97% could identify Martin Luther King Jr. as author of the "I Have a Dream" speech.
Fewer (77%) knew Uncle Tom's Cabin helped end slavery a century earlier.
"School has emphasized Martin Luther King, and everybody teaches it, and people are learning it," says Chester Finn of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, an education think tank. "What a better thing it would be if people also had the Civil War part and the civil rights part, and the Harriet Tubman part and the Uncle Tom's Cabin part."
The findings probably won't sit well with educators, who say record numbers of students are taking college-level Advanced Placement history, literature and other courses in high school.
"Not all is woe in American education," says Trevor Packer of The College Board, which oversees Advanced Placement.
The study's release today in Washington also serves as a sort of coming out for its sponsor, Common Core, a new non-partisan group pushing for the liberal arts in public school curricula. Its leadership includes a North Carolina fifth-grade teacher, an author of history and science textbooks, a teachers union leader and a former top official in the George H.W. Bush administration.

[abbeyej]

Dh is a professor and this is a *major* complaint he has about his students -- they often have no idea what he's talking about because they don't know the most basic cultural references (ranging from history, current events and literature to "what is a definite article" and "what's a brassiere")...

[Diana in OR]

Dh is a professor and this is a *major* complaint he has about his students -- they often have no idea what he's talking about because they don't know the most basic cultural references (ranging from history, current events and literature to "what is a definite article" and "what's a brassiere")...

When I was 10yo, wayyyy back in the mid-70s, my teacher sat me down and said my mom had told her I had some brassieres, but wouldn't wear them. She told me in her nicest teacherly way, that I needed to start wearing them. I remember nodding my head, but inside I was thinking, "I have NO idea what she's talking about!" I was supposed to have known what a brassiere was, but no one had ever used that word with me before. :o

[Kathy in MD]

grandparent's knowledge? What did they grow up knowing that was forgotten due to the pressure of learning other things. Or things that weren't talked about commonly because they were no longer pertinent.

Also regionalism plays a role in what is taught. My dh says the state of VA didn't teach American history past the civil war. :eek: (He was born and started school in VA, in the 40's and 50's). He went to JrH and HS in CA and is appalled how US history, as taught in the rest of the US, marginalizes the Spanish settlements. OTOH, I was shocked to find out he never studied the rise and influence of the unions in US history until he went to college, but then I grew up in an area with strong unions.

So I think you need to take these surveys with a grain of salt. The article started with a reference to Big Brother. Is that term really that important? Is it really important to know that Uncle Tom's Cabin raised awareness of the evils of slavery, or is it just important to know that an awareness of the evils of slavery helped an anti-slavery President to be elected and that caused some southern states to succeed. And also, what is being taught instead of some of the missing cultural norms? Are our students learning more science? math? Are they studying newer novels or different classics? Are they getting more foriegn languages?

Culture changes over time, and with it cultural norms. Given the current rapid pace of technological change, we can't be too surprised if the culture changes rapidly also.

Kathy (who's feeling contrary today :D )

[RoughCollie]

I asked my boys what a brassiere is. Two didn't know. One said it was a stand that one holds a torch in. Now they know what one is!

Dh is a professor and this is a *major* complaint he has about his students -- they often have no idea what he's talking about because they don't know the most basic cultural references (ranging from history, current events and literature to "what is a definite article" and "what's a brassiere")...

[Susan in IL]

At least around here. My youngest is in ps (9th) and he can't believe how many of the kids do not remember any of the history that they have been taught. There were huge gaps in what they were taught too. They haven't been taught anything from about MLK to the present (unless it is current events). He says in his social studies class, he is about the only one who answers any questions. Most of rest of them don't have a clue. If the teacher asks what they term a hard question, they just look at ds for the answer.

My oldest (in college) loved the 20th Century course I had him do as a senior. He said the learned so much in that and it other historical things in context. Plus, he had parents that lived though half of it (LOL!!!) and could explain it in comparason to today. (:) *anj*).

Kathy in MD, they sure aren't being taught anything more in any of the other classes. They aren't starting foreign language until 7th grade and even then it is optional all the way through high school. They are doing Our Town right now and did Romeo and Juliet first semester. I doubt if they will add any more.

This is the child that started me looking at hsing but I ended up pulling the older one out instead. I would love to hs this one but he wants no part of it. I afterschool him adding many of the relative items to what they are doing in class.

[JennifersLost]

That's what my oldest ds used to say. The teacher would ask questions and each time no one else knew the answer, everyone turned to look at him. I guess The Story of the World, etc, covers way more ground than the ps social studies classes did.

[j.griff]

IME, talking with teens in extended family, the teens just don't know very much. :( It was hard for me and 13yod to have a conversation with 16yo family member and her sibling. There was a LOT of "HUH?"'s and it was a bit disturbing to me, especially considering the younger teen sibling was in a GATE program in school.

[kalanamak]

(who went to a private Christian boarding school) "he looks like Yassar Arafat". This was about 5 years ago, before he died. "I don't know who that is" was the reply. This kid voted that year! Yeeeesh.

[mcconnellboys]

Well, you know that Hirsch and others have been proponents of cultural literacy for a while now, and you know that children don't know nursery rhymes anymore, on the whole, so I think it makes sense that this same sort of trend continues on throughout the school years.

Regena

[Mama Lynx]

So I think you need to take these surveys with a grain of salt. The article started with a reference to Big Brother. Is that term really that important?



Yes. I would argue that it is, really, that important.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm 35 and I'm always complaining that my peers, never mind teenagers, are culturally illiterate. Yes, to be culturally literate you *do* need to know many of these references to read, listen to and understand political speech and what it means.

[GothicGyrl]

Comparing this to only public schooled kids (not all now), it seems that each generation, while being taught those historical facts mentioned, only remembers what was most important to their generation.

So for my mom--brassiers would be correct. For me, it's bras. If I mention "bra burning" to my DD, she won't know anything about it because it's not relevant to her generation. Likewise, if we talk about Woodstock, that's my mom's generation. And while I know all about it and even listen to its music, mention it to my DD and she gives you "why would anyone be stupid enough to stay in an open field without a bath for three ays?" speech. ;)

LIkewise, while I could identify the 1984 theme as could my mother--it is only relevant to our generations--not my DD's, so why should she be able to identify it?

So what I'm trying to say is that I think the article focuses too much on irrelevant facts that don't apply to this generation instead of stating that maybe we should be teaching them things that would apply. I'm not saying they shouldn't know about slavery, or historical items or why 1984 is relevant, etc.... but I am saying that we can't "punish" them for not knowing too much about these things because it just isn't relevant to them.

Now, ask them about Bush's presidency... Not Clinton, because most were too young when Clinton was in office, but Bush is their generation. I think that's the question that should be asked and I think this article would find most of these so called "unintelligent" kids, quite intelligent when it comes to something that is wholely relevant to their generation.

[Plaid Dad]

Most of the teenagers I know personally are homeschooled, so not representative of their age peers. But last weekend I spoke at length with a woman who has taught at Keene State College for many years. She is now an emeritus faculty member. She recounted many examples of how utterly ignorant her students are of cultural and historical references that previous generations took for granted. Not one student in a recent class of hers had heard of Joan of Arc. Only two in a class of thirty had even heard of the movie Psycho. As she put it, "They know nothing about anything that isn't absolutely current, and what's more, they don't care." I've heard the same complaints from other professors at all kinds of schools, even highly competitive ones.

So I would say, yes, it's as bad as this article says, and worse.

[Mrs Mungo]

LIkewise, while I could identify the 1984 theme as could my mother--it is only relevant to our generations--not my DD's, so why should she be able to identify it?

I think 1984 is more relevant than ever. I've had emails intercepted by the government. Talk about Big Brother.

[GothicGyrl]

I think 1984 is more relevant than ever. I've had emails intercepted by the government. Talk about Big Brother.
I'm not saying our Government is innocent or perfect (quite the opposite in fact), but I do not believe in this "big brother" mentality as much as some do. ;)

It's more of a "I think Kennedy was assasinated, but not by a lone gunman and this gunman certainly did not act on his own" --meaning, while I'm not a total conspiracy theorist, I do believe that our government is capable of doing it and has, but I don't believe they are totally spying on us. ;)

kwim?

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm not saying our Government is innocent or perfect (quite the opposite in fact), but I do not believe in this "big brother" mentality as much as some do. ;)

It's more of a "I think Kennedy was assasinated, but not by a lone gunman and this gunman certainly did not act on his own" --meaning, while I'm not a total conspiracy theorist, I do believe that our government is capable of doing it and has, but I don't believe they are totally spying on us. ;)

kwim?

Awww...I never took you for an optimist. ;)

[GothicGyrl]

Awww...I never took you for an optimist. ;)
except you'd be wrong because I am very much an optimist. DH is the pessimist. ;)

[Ria]

Shoot, not only are they culturally illiterate, they are completely clueless about the modern world. I asked one of my classes what they knew about John McCain - politics aside - just what they knew of his personal life. Would you believe that not one of the 12 of them had any clue that John McCain spent years as a POW in VietNam? And they couldn't name the Republicans or Democrats campaining for their parties' nominations.

What's Big Brother when you can't figure out today? Sheesh.

Ria

[Susan in IL]

Ds gave the 7th grade social studies teacher (and a great teacher) the SOTW books to read. He sent us the nicest email that stated ds earned the social studies award (awarded in May) the first week of school in August. LOL!!! After SOTW, he gave him some of the Marbury books to read and the teacher just sucked them up too.

[Kelli in TN]

Well, you know that Hirsch and others have been proponents of cultural literacy for a while now, and you know that children don't know nursery rhymes anymore, on the whole, so I think it makes sense that this same sort of trend continues on throughout the school years.

Regena


You made me go get my E.D. Hirsch books out of my giveaway bag! I was going to give them to family just starting out, but I think I will keep them and at least skim them with my kids.

[Michelle T]

But then, I do agree with others who have said that what is considered "cultural literacy" is going to change with each generation.

I have nieces in PS and nieces who are HS. I have to say that my two PS nieces are EXTREMELY culturally aware and bright, but they have always been very academically advanced, intellectual girls. My three HS nieces are, to put it mildly, not the sharpest knives in the drawer. They don't really know anything about anything. So I don't necessarily think cultural literacy is a given for homeschoolers, or anti-PS. It all just depends.
Michelle T

[abbeyej]

So I don't necessarily think cultural literacy is a given for homeschoolers, or anti-PS. It all just depends.

Oh, no, I don't think any of us are arguing that! I sure hope not...

When I was teaching drama (about 90 home schooled students age 8-13), I was *shocked* at how many of them didn't know the basic story line of fairy tales like Cinderella, Snow White and Jack and the Beanstalk...

[Jean in Newcastle]

In the past, I think most schools were pretty uniform in what they presented (ala the Hirsch books idea). That is not true anymore. So many things have been dumbed down or things of lessor importance have supplanted the things with more substance.

Another thing - I learned a lot in school, but a huge part of my cultural education was from books (and I didn't even grow up in the U.S.). But I learned vocabulary, historical references (sometimes by reading the actual source itself - sometimes through seeing how people alluded to things), I learned about eras and peoples and cultures that I didn't have immediate access to.

My ds10 has a huge bank of cultural literacy that most of his peers don't have. But he is a voracious reader. And he is genuinely interested in many things. As a family we expose our kids to a huge variety of music - ethnic Greek music is in our CD player as well as Trisha Yearwood, as well as Maurice Ravel, as well as Michael Buble (and my kids recognize many of his songs because they heard them first from Louis Armstrong or Sinatra). We expose our kids to the arts and literature as a matter of course. My son has been to "Shakespeare in the park" and can recite much of the 'to be or not to be' speech. He recognized a painting in a local gallery as a Picasso. He uses Latin idioms in real life! Right now, they are watching NOVA and both children (6 and 10) are fascinated. My point is not that my kids are hot stuff but that they are little sponges that just soak up what they are exposed to.

[melissel]

Oh, no, I don't think any of us are arguing that! I sure hope not...

When I was teaching drama (about 90 home schooled students age 8-13), I was *shocked* at how many of them didn't know the basic story line of fairy tales like Cinderella, Snow White and Jack and the Beanstalk...

Do you think that has more to do with the fact that fewer people are teaching their kids things like that because of the messages they might carry (which, though I loathe this phrase, I will say are not exactly considered politically correct these days)? We've never read any of the older fairy tales, but we have read updated, "sanitized" versions of them (e.g., Sleeping Ugly, Kate and the Beanstalk, etc.). I do plan to read the originals with my girls (from my very own childhood books, no less), just not quite yet. (Not saying this is the answer, by the way! I just wonder if that comes into play at all, or even a little.)

Personally, I do always take studies like this with a grain of salt. I'm sure that our adult grandchildren will be having this same discussion some day about their kids' generation. I know that I, for one, was a high school student whose cultural knowledge was at one point roughly limited to a general interest in the Billy Joel song "We Didn't Start the Fire." Yet, here I am, an adult who holds degrees in political science and women's studies, homeschooling my kids with my adult's knowledge of the world, which has come a long way from my teen's knowledge of it. I don't think the potential irrelevance of the term Big Brother to our kids means that they'll have no sense of the things the government can and will do (and has done). They'll just have different benchmarks and guideposts.

[melissel]

...you know that children don't know nursery rhymes anymore, on the whole, so I think it makes sense that this same sort of trend continues on throughout the school years.

FWIW, I hate most nursery rhymes! I always have, even as a kid. My DD2 has recently latched onto two books that were Freecycled to us--Mother Goose books illustrated by Rosemary Wells. The one is tolerable, but the other is like nails on a chalkboard to me. And of course we have to read it several times a day *sigh* We (OK, I) prefer poetry and song. You'll hear tons of current kids' music around here, but not so much of the nursery rhymes :eek:

[NancyinCA]

As a fun side note to this...a good friend of mine is on staff with the group mentioned in the full article... www.commoncore.org (http://www.commoncore.org). If you go to the staff page, her name is Lauren. :D

[Mama Lynx]

Personally, I do always take studies like this with a grain of salt. I'm sure that our adult grandchildren will be having this same discussion some day about their kids' generation. I know that I, for one, was a high school student whose cultural knowledge was at one point roughly limited to a general interest in the Billy Joel song "We Didn't Start the Fire." Yet, here I am, an adult who holds degrees in political science and women's studies, homeschooling my kids with my adult's knowledge of the world, which has come a long way from my teen's knowledge of it. I don't think the potential irrelevance of the term Big Brother to our kids means that they'll have no sense of the things the government can and will do (and has done). They'll just have different benchmarks and guideposts.

Yes, but. Cultural references are shortcuts. They are communication transfer stations. Okay, that analogy is not the best, but it's 1 am here and I have no business being up and on the computer.

A cultural reference packs an entire event, an entire ideology, into a word or phrase. For those who have read 1984 the phrase "Big Brother" conjures up a specific rich and frightening image of what government could do if we let it.

Yes, our kids will have a sense of the things government can and will do. But 1984 not only gives them that sense, but it gives them our history. It tells them that once we were very afraid that government could really do these things. It tells them something about why we had those fears. It gives them specific things to watch out for, and to avoid, and to fight against.

When we lose our cultural references, we lose history, and we lose context. We should be very, very careful about that. Some of the references really don't matter - like "brassiere." No big deal. But others matter greatly.

Plus, as shortcuts, as I said above, they're just so darned cool. Think about how rich a novel is, when you know the references the author is tossing around. As an example of lesser importance, earlier tonight I was marvelling at how many different references P.G. Wodehouse packs into a story. When he says that the character stood "silent, as on a peak in Darien," I know exactly what he's getting at. If I didn't know the poem, that phrase would just be a pretty phrase, and I wouldn't catch half of his meaning. When we lose these references, our experience of older works is lessened. Some of that is inevitable, I guess, over time; but it's a shame.

Sure, each generation will have its own benchmarks and guideposts. Each generation adds to the picture. But that does not mean it is not a loss to lose those of the earlier generations.

And don't you people watch Star Trek? ;-)

[mcconnellboys]

LOL, I used them for that, too! Not sure how much they remember, however. I think the best way to learn this type info is to read it over and over (or say/sing it) when you're a toddler, as Melissa said her daughter is doing (sorry, Melissa! I don't really love them, either....)

Regena

[Carol in Cal.]

He was watching a show called "Are You Smarter than a Fourth Grader?" and one of the contestants, a grown woman, did not know that Easter is always on a Sunday. 3 of the children did not know this, either, he said.

[Jenny in Atl]

In a weird way this thread, kind of goes with the Ethnicity one. The US is so huge, and made up of so many people, with many "cultural" histories; that I'm not surprised kids today don't know many of the historically and cultural facts which my mother's generation had drummed into their heads. I would guess many my age don't know a number of them as well. In some ways, we are like the Roman Empire.. too big for our britches. That said, many of us are woefully lacking in world history as well as our own. Hard to compete with American Idol. :001_huh:

[GothicGyrl]

He was watching a show called "Are You Smarter than a Fourth Grader?" and one of the contestants, a grown woman, did not know that Easter is always on a Sunday. 3 of the children did not know this, either, he said.
Unless there is a new show, it's "Are you smarter than a 5th grader" and why is the fact that they did not know which day Easter falls on, alarming?

I find it more alarming that some can't spell properly, use proper grammar (ebonics), and allow kids to type up full reports using internet speak, more alarming than this.

[finding_sanctuary]

A cultural reference packs an entire event, an entire ideology, into a word or phrase. For those who have read 1984 the phrase "Big Brother" conjures up a specific rich and frightening image of what government could do if we let it.

Yes, our kids will have a sense of the things government can and will do. But 1984 not only gives them that sense, but it gives them our history. It tells them that once we were very afraid that government could really do these things. It tells them something about why we had those fears. It gives them specific things to watch out for, and to avoid, and to fight against. (bolding mine)

Maybe this is part of the point. These references are part of our history. They may not seem as relevant to our kids as they do to us because they are just another part of history. My DSS, at nearly 16, could read 1984 (and I'm hoping I can convince him to do so) but it wouldn't have the same affect on him as it did on me, or on you, or on someone who grew up in a time when the fear of a 1984-like society was very, very real. On the other hand, say I were to have a discussion with him about recent events in some public schools, such as suspensions for candy sales or "inappropriate" haircuts on kindergardeners, and expulsions for simply drawing a weapon (on paper!!) or taking a nail file to school. He would understand exactly what I meant if I called one of the administrators involved a "Dolores Umbridge". It's part of his generation's cultural references. Perhaps the reference lacks the quality and richness of 1984 and "Big Brother", but it serves a similar purpose -- suggesting that unlimited government power & control = BAD. I have no doubt that his generation will find and create new references that are relevant to them, to the culture and the rapidly changing world in which they find themselves, and that some of the themes of these references we think they've lost will simply reappear in different guise.

And don't you people watch Star Trek? ;-)

Of course. :D