ARGH. I need this cleared up. TWTM book says R&S grammar is enough for writing....

[Dawn]

I was able to sit down and start reading about the logic years in my TWTM book yesterday. I came across this:

"If you choose to use Rod and Staff, the composition exercises provided will fulfill the middle-grade student's need for a writing program." Page 359, 2004 edition

Susan is my writing guru. What she suggests about HOW to teach writing and WHAT to use weigh a lot with me - I admire her writing skills and knowledge on this subject. Her philosophy of writing resonates with me.

So....someone help me here. Do I really NEED to add more? As homeschoolers, we are so tempted to over-reach with our efforts in making sure our kiddos are learning what they need to learn. I tend to either go overkill or not enough.

If SWB says R&S grammar is sufficient for the middle years, do I really need to add something to it? I was settled on adding CLE Reading but if it isn't necessary....why?

[H.S. Burrow]

I was able to sit down and start reading about the logic years in my TWTM book yesterday. I came across this:

"If you choose to use Rod and Staff, the composition exercises provided will fulfill the middle-grade student's need for a writing program." Page 359, 2004 edition

Susan is my writing guru. What she suggests about HOW to teach writing and WHAT to use weigh a lot with me - I admire her writing skills and knowledge on this subject. Her philosophy of writing resonates with me.

So....someone help me here. Do I really NEED to add more? As homeschoolers, we are so tempted to over-reach with our efforts in making sure our kiddos are learning what they need to learn. I tend to either go overkill or not enough.

If SWB says R&S grammar is sufficient for the middle years, do I really need to add something to it? I was settled on adding CLE Reading but if it isn't necessary....why?

We are using Rod & Staff grammar with Classical Writing Older Beginner. We added in CW this February and will continue to use it along with R&S grammar.

I'll be honest and tell you that I don't know how long CW has been around. I don't if CW was available at the time that the 2004 edition of TWTM was completed but I do know that in the footnote (don't know the page #, I loaned out my copy) SWB states that in the 1999 edition Abeka had been the top recommendation for grammar but only because R&S did not include high school and now R&S includes high school and that's why there was a change. There may be different recommendations in the 2009 edition as CW is moving forward with a high school curriculum.

We prefer the writing assignments and how they are taught in CW. When we get to a lesson or couple of lessons in R&S with a writing assignment we do not do CW that week.

I don't know what CLE Reading is or what it teaches (I assume reading), so I can't help you with whether or not you should add it but I can tell you that - for our family - we felt the need to include writing each week and added CW to meet that need.

[Chris in VA]

I was just thinking along these lines, trying to figure out dd's 4th grade curriculum, so I'm glad you posted.

I think Rod and Staff could be just fine for middle school. They really do cover quite a lot. Remember that Susan also has lots of writing throughout the other subjects in the Logic Stage (think of all the outlining in history she requires, for example). So, I think the idea is that they get practice on specific techniques from R&S, then get to practice in the other writing that is done. Also, remember that WTM kids grow up with narration, copywork and dictation. Stepping into composition from that backround is a natural, if not easy, progression.

[Peggy in Va]

Perhaps this link will help. It is in response to my question "If you use R&S why did you choose to use a separate writing curriculum."

On another note, I think I read somewhere on these boards that R&S is fine for writing as long as the child is using the grade appropriate book. For instance, I'm concerned for ds going into 7th, because I will be using the R&S 6th grade book with him. This will be great for grammar, but I think it will be behind in writing. Make sense?

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91464

[Jean in Wisc]

Are you doing all the writing that SWB suggests throughout the curriculum?

I found that teaching to write was a big task. I want my kids to be able to do a 5-paragraph essay with their eyes closed by the time they leave for college. I believe that one of the reasons my dd is on the Chancellor's list is that she can write painlessly--handing in college assignments without a lot of effort.

SO...in my opinion, having a good grounding in all the the basic subjects AND being able write makes for a much easier time in college.

If you are doing all the other writing that Susan recommends, you are no doubt writing, writing, writing, writing...and most likely do not need more. I did not follow Susan's agenda that close. We did not do all the papers and and the composition that she says she does. Plus, I needed to learn how to teach my kids how to write since I was not a writing teacher--I learned along with the writing programs. For that reason, I added writing programs to Rod & Staff when my kids got into mid-elementary years. We tried several writing programs, and I'm not convinced any one is THE ANSWER to everyone. But for folks like me, I'd recommend doing more than just R&S.

One option is to take the assignments in R&S and do them over and over again, changing the topics, until they are able to do them easily. Or you can try a classical writing program or any other elementary program.

Just my perspective from one who is past that stage in homeschooling.:001_smile:
Jean

[Chris in VA]

I just want to agree with Jean, about the need to make sure they can write when they go off to college.
I have the feeling that it is ds' lack of writing experience that will keep him from entering the Cinema program at VCU this year. It is a writing intensive program, and I did not do such a good job in that department. If he had had hard evidence (a couple of research papers, for example, ala WTM) to show them, they probably would not have questioned him so closely on his writing ability, and he probably would have had stronger SAT writing/essay scores, too.

He is going to go into the general program, but you can bet he'll take two sems of college comp his freshman year--could have been avoided if I had followed Susan's advice more carefully.

[Chris in VA]

I just want to agree with Jean, about the need to make sure they can write when they go off to college.
I have the feeling that it is ds' lack of writing experience that will keep him from entering the Cinema program at VCU this year. It is a writing intensive program, and I did not do such a good job in that department. If he had had hard evidence (a couple of research papers, for example, ala WTM) to show them, they probably would not have questioned him so closely on his writing ability, and he probably would have had stronger SAT writing/essay scores, too.

He is going to go into the general program, but you can bet he'll take two sems of college comp his freshman year--could have been avoided if I had followed Susan's advice more carefully.

[Staci in MO]

Remember that Susan also has lots of writing throughout the other subjects in the Logic Stage (think of all the outlining in history she requires, for example). So, I think the idea is that they get practice on specific techniques from R&S, then get to practice in the other writing that is done. Also, remember that WTM kids grow up with narration, copywork and dictation. Stepping into composition from that backround is a natural, if not easy, progression.

If I remember right, Susan has clarified this point on the boards before when this question came up. Her answer has been that R&S is enough for writing as long as you are also doing narration, dictation, and outlining in the other subjects. That will give you plenty of writing practice, IMHO.

[Colleen in NS]

I was able to sit down and start reading about the logic years in my TWTM book yesterday. I came across this:

"If you choose to use Rod and Staff, the composition exercises provided will fulfill the middle-grade student's need for a writing program." Page 359, 2004 edition

Susan is my writing guru. What she suggests about HOW to teach writing and WHAT to use weigh a lot with me - I admire her writing skills and knowledge on this subject. Her philosophy of writing resonates with me.

So....someone help me here. Do I really NEED to add more? As homeschoolers, we are so tempted to over-reach with our efforts in making sure our kiddos are learning what they need to learn. I tend to either go overkill or not enough.

If SWB says R&S grammar is sufficient for the middle years, do I really need to add something to it? I was settled on adding CLE Reading but if it isn't necessary....why?

Here is what the new WTM says about it:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/wtmchap17.php

scroll about halfway down, to the writing section.

[GVA]

Unless of course it's over-the-top, unreasonable for your child's age and ability.

I haven't used R&S grammar in years, but as an IEW co-op teacher, I believe in doing some writing every day. From what I've seen of R&S, they don't do writing every day. In the IEW co-op, we have 24 weeks of daily assignments, but I always recommend that the parents do much more than that even if it's following a child-directed interest. After co-op ended in late November, my children did a 3-week project on Christmas in another country, and with co-op ending last week, now they're doing a 3-week project on an inventor, and there other assignments after that until mid-June when they write in a daily journal all summer.

I wouldn't add CLE reading unless you want an independent program that teaches vocabulary, comprehension, and literary terms and analysis. That wasn't getting done in our house, so I added CLE reading several years ago. My children have their Sonlight readers which we discuss orally, but Sonlight does primarily comprehension questions unless you use their language arts. So CLE substitutes for me.:tongue_smilie:

[Dawn]

Perhaps this link will help. It is in response to my question "If you use R&S why did you choose to use a separate writing curriculum."

On another note, I think I read somewhere on these boards that R&S is fine for writing as long as the child is using the grade appropriate book. For instance, I'm concerned for ds going into 7th, because I will be using the R&S 6th grade book with him. This will be great for grammar, but I think it will be behind in writing. Make sense?

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91464

Thank you. We actually aren't doing R&S Grammar 5 this year as we took a bit of a break from it. So unless I start getting at that now and having her complete it before she begins grade 6 work, she'll be a grade level behind (though I have also heard R&S Grammar is somewhat advanced which is one reason I felt OK with taking a breather for a bit).

[Dawn]

If I remember right, Susan has clarified this point on the boards before when this question came up. Her answer has been that R&S is enough for writing as long as you are also doing narration, dictation, and outlining in the other subjects. That will give you plenty of writing practice, IMHO.

And that was what I was wondering as well. We do those things for history and science - occasionally for nature study as well. With our grammar break this year, I had her doing WWE.

[Dawn]

Here is what the new WTM says about it:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/wtmchap17.php

scroll about halfway down, to the writing section.

Very helpful, thanks!

[Dawn]

Colleen, that link clarifies it for me.

I think we'll pick R&S 5 back up next week and progress through it to get her back at "grade level".

I won't add in anything else for now since we already do SWB's recommendations with narration and dictation in the other subjects.

Thanks everyone! :D

[Colleen in NS]

I won't add in anything else for now since we already do SWB's recommendations with narration and dictation in the other subjects.

I wrote about this in the other link that Peggy put here, since someone bumped it up today, but I'll mention it here.

"About the "not enough practice" concerns - someone told me last year or so that I should USE R&S's writing lessons (book 5 and up) in our WTM-style narrations. So, for example, this year in book 5 there are several lessons pertaining to organizing paragraphs and the structure of paragraphs. So, I use these points to help ds write his history/science/lit. narrations each week. So those particular R&S lessons are getting used over and over again this year. There may be others I'm not thinking of right now, but after this person told me that, I started being more aware of "how could I use this writing lesson in our narrations or outlines?" Not all will apply (poetry? :)), but some do."

Of course, I'm never really sure if I'm doing the right thing. So far, this is working fine and fitting in. But I will be so relieved to hear what SWB has to say about logic stage writing next month!

[CookieMonster]

Are you doing all the writing that SWB suggests throughout the curriculum?

If you are doing all the other writing that Susan recommends, you are no doubt writing, writing, writing, writing...and most likely do not need more. I did not follow Susan's agenda that close. We did not do all the papers and and the composition that she says she does. Plus, I needed to learn how to teach my kids how to write since I was not a writing teacher--I learned along with the writing programs. For that reason, I added writing programs to Rod & Staff when my kids got into mid-elementary years. We tried several writing programs, and I'm not convinced any one is THE ANSWER to everyone. But for folks like me, I'd recommend doing more than just R&S.



Jean this was a very helpful perspective.

Thank you. :)