Best holocaust movies and documentaries for high school?

[Luann in ID]

Two of my ds's decided to write research papers about the holocaust. I thought I'd get some movies and documentaries for them. Any suggestions?

ETA: Book recommendations are welcome, too. :-)

[ereks mom]

Both were books and were also made into movies.

[newbie]

Life is Beautiful, is a different look at the Holocaust, probably the same as The Boy in the striped pajamas.

I did see Life is Beautiful and thought itwas a wonderful movie, although sad in the end. But they all are.

Another one is the Pianist, but I would recommend watching it prior to kids.

[Mandy in TN]

I thought I'd get some movies and documentaries for them. Any suggestions?

Anne Frank Remembered- A documentary about Anne Frank. Ds just watched it a couple of weeks ago. It was very good.

Schindler's List

[Michelle in MO]

"The Holocaust", which was a television mini-series which came out in the 1980's. Also "Schindler's List" was excellent, but pre-watch that one. I have many more in mind, but not time to type them all right now. I'll try to add to this later.

[kidzr1st]

My son just got finished with reading The Book Thief and really enjoyed it.

[Lori D.]

I saw "Holocaust", "Playing for Time", and "Night and Fog" back in high school. While very intense and difficult subject matter, it was do-able as an older high school student. I think it is very important we see these things and remember so it will never happen again. We allowed our high school boys (ages 15 and 16) to see "The Counterfeiters" recently, and it was do-able. Whatever you choose, I'd suggest viewing WITH your students do you can help them discuss and decompress from a very intense and difficult subject matter. Warmest regards, Lori D.



"Holocaust" -- 1978 made for TV mini-series
"The saga of a Jewish family's struggle to survive the horror of Nazi Germany's systematic marginalization and extermination of their community." Though that was 30 years ago, I don't remember anything too graphic, I do recall that the series managed to touch on quite a few aspects of the Holocaust.

"Playing for Time" -- 1980 feature film
Somewhat similar to "Holocaust". Female musician prisoners are spared in order to play music for their guards; I do recall a very wacko-sadistic female prison guard and a young prisoner who "sells" herself to male prison guards to get better food, but I don't recall anything too graphic or lewd.

"Die Fälscher" -- 2007 feature film; English title: "The Counterfeiters"
Loosely based on a true story and absolutely fascinating. Shows the different worldviews of prisoners at a concentration camp, and how they handle survivor vs. holding onto moral values (or not), when they are given better living conditions in exchange for creating counterfeit British and American money to bring down the economies of the Allied nations.

"Night and Fog" -- 1955 documentary
Uses photos and actual footage from the death camps. Only 33 minutes long, but very intense and powerful. The script was written by an actual Holocaust survivor. This is a hard film to watch, but it is so important never to forget -- so it will never happen again.

"Paper Clips" -- 2004 documentary
"Whitwell Middle School in rural Tennessee is the setting for this documentary about an extraordinary experiment in Holocaust education. Struggling to grasp the concept of six-million Holocaust victims, the students decide to collect six-million paper clips to better understand the extent of this crime against humanity. The film details how the students met Holocaust survivors from around the world and how the experience transformed them and their community." This was a great documentary -- the students even managed to raise funds to buy an actual train car used to transport Jews to the death camps, ship to the US and build a special memorial at their school. Wow.


"The Devil's Arithmetic" --1999 feature film
From the perspective of a modern teenage girl who, like Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz, opens a door and is swept back in time and lives the events. I haven't seen this one, but I believe it is a bit less intense if you have sensitive teens.


Here is a link to a list of films viewable for children on the Holocaust:
http://www.jewishlibraries.org/ajlweb/publications/proceedings/proceedings2001/banksbox.pdf

And here's a Wikipedia list of both feature films and documentaries involving the Holocaust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Holocaust_films

[Lori D.]

PS -- Definitely read "The Hiding Place" -- a much needed balance to the darkness and evil of the Holocaust, that God was there even in the prison camp, and, if we allow Him, brings healing and forgiveness after such horrors. :)

[Staci in MO]

But pre-watch it first. It is very intense, but very well done.

[Maverick]

We recently watched Judgement at Nuremburg. I'm not sure it will fit your needs since technically it is post-holocaust, it is about a 1948 tribunal to judge some German officers re: atrocities during the war. Spencer Tracy plays an American judge. The movie won many Oscars in 1962. I found it to be enjoyable and enlightening.

[74Heaven]

It touches on the holocaust and also is a great teen/evolution/science discussion movie. The holocaust portion shows a lot of links to other subjects (i.e. euthanasia, eugenics, planned parenthood's founder) that helps teens to link past events to current social issues and topics.

I can not remember is it by Ben Stiller (Stein?) I have those names confused

Lisaj

[Eliana]

It touches on the holocaust and also is a great teen/evolution/science discussion movie. The holocaust portion shows a lot of links to other subjects (i.e. euthanasia, eugenics, planned parenthood's founder) that helps teens to link past events to current social issues and topics.

I can not remember is it by Ben Stiller (Stein?) I have those names confused

Lisaj

I found the excerpts of the Holocaust references I read extremely offensive. fwiw and ymmv

[Alyce]

It is a personal narrative of his time in Buchenwald and Auschwitz as a teenager. He goes from a very Strong Orthodox Jew to someone that loses their faith. It is great book that allows you to here it from the source and because of the emotional changes he goes through, it is great for a discussion of the Holocaust.

[Rebecca in VA]

"Survivors of the Holocaust." It's a documentary made to promote Steven Spielberg's Holocaust survivor registration project, and it's excellent. I loved hearing the survivors tell their stories, seeing their photographs, etc.

The documentary was made in 1996. I bought it when it first came out and still have it, though I only watched it once. There are used copies available for sale through Amazon.

[Eliana]

I'm afraid I started something I don't have the emotional energy to finish... Here's a partially annotated list... I did *not* go back and rewatch/reread anything to look for things that might not be appropriate for a teen. All Holocaust material is intense (if it is worth reading or watching in the first place!), but some are more explicit than others. Everything I list here comes with a recommendation that you look at it before giving/showing it to your kid. If you have questions about a few specific resources, I'd be able (probably) to revisit them to give specific warnings, but it is intense material and hard for me to take much of at once.

DVDs:

The classic documentary is Shoah (http://www.amazon.com/Shoah-Oral-History-Holocaust-All-Region/dp/B000AS4L16/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1238711157&sr=1-1) - it is long (4 dvds), it doesn't have reenactments or (as I recall) historical footage... it is oral history, and beautifully done.

Night and Fog (http://www.amazon.com/Night-Fog-Collection-Michel-Bouquet/dp/B000093NQZ/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1238724611&sr=8-1) was made not long after the war; it is short (~1/2 hr), and very disturbing. Here's the product description:
Ten years after the liberation of the Nazi concentration camps, filmmaker Alain Resnais documented the abandoned grounds of Auschwitz. One of the first cinematic reflections on the horrors of the Holocaust, Night and Fog (Nuit et Brouillard) contrasts the stillness of the abandoned camps' quiet, empty buildings with haunting wartime footage. With Night and Fog, Resnais investigates the cyclical nature of man's violence toward man and presents the unsettling suggestion that such horrors could come again.
Die Weisse Rose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Wei%C3%9Fe_Rose_%28film%29) is a fictionlized portrayal of a Xtian student resistance movement - I don't know if it is available on dvd, I had an old vhs tape my mother converted to dvd for me. If you can't find it, you might try Sophie Scholl: The Final Days (http://www.amazon.com/Sophie-Scholl-Final-Julia-Jentsch/dp/B000H5V8H2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1238711976&sr=1-1)(I haven't seen it yet, but I have heard good things about it.) I would make sure to also cover Xtian wrongdoing during the Holocaust - the pograms in Poland... including the ones *after* the war, in which Holcaust survivors were murdered come to mind (I mention these b/c they often were connected to or followed religious services - a friend's mother could bring herself to leave her home on Easter, the memories of it as a day of fear & danger were too strong, even now when she lives in a safe, friendly North American city. Perhaps Lena: My 100 children (http://www.amazon.com/Lena-100-Children-Torquil-Campbell/dp/B000O785V0/ref=pd_sim_d_4) would work to present that piece... it's been on my list to watch for a while now.)

I would avoid The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas - here's a review (http://www.aish.com/societyWork/arts/The_Boy_in_the_Striped_Pajamas.asp) explaining why.

Sugihara: Conspiracy of Kindness (http://www.amazon.com/Sugihara-Conspiracy-Kindness-Susan-Bluman/dp/B0009OUC78/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1238722133&sr=8-1)

Shanghai Ghetto (http://www.amazon.com/Shanghai-Ghetto-Irene-Eber/dp/B0006Q93A6/ref=pd_bbs_4?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1238722133&sr=8-4)

Au Revoir Les Enfants (http://www.amazon.com/Au-Revoir-Enfants-Criterion-Collection/dp/B0009HLCS8/ref=sr_tr_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1238720078&sr=1-1)

Children of Chabannes (http://www.amazon.com/Children-Chabannes-Norbert-Bikales/dp/B00092ZT46/ref=pd_sim_d_5)

Schindler's List (http://www.amazon.com/Schindlers-List-Widescreen-Liam-Neeson/dp/B00012QM8G/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1238710155&sr=1-13) is a masterpiece - and a decent adaptation of the book (which, of course, has much more detal - I recommend both. I read the book first, but I imagine it would work well the other way too.)

Europa, Europa (http://www.amazon.com/Europa-Solomon-Perel/dp/B00007KQ9X/ref=sr_1_75?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1238710250&sr=1-75) portrays a Jewish teen who passed himself off as a genitle and is even in a Nazi Youth group. It is a black comedy in parts, a tragedy in others, and a different viewpoint on the whole nightmare. (Based on Solomon Perel's autobiography) All the films here are recommended with cautions, this one I know contains at scenes some families (including my own) might find unacceptable for their teens to watch - screen first.

Korczak (http://www.amazon.com/Korczak-Wojciech-Pszoniak/dp/6302817536/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=video&qid=1238715467&sr=1-1) - I saw this in the theaters when it came out, and some of the memories are still very vivid. Korczak ran an orphanage (in which he put into practice some of his philosophies of education & child... management). It was highly controversial when it came out, but it is a powerful film, and I recommend it.

Liberation of Auschwitz (http://www.amazon.com/Holocaust-Irmgard-von-zur-M%C3%BChlen/dp/B000AA4FCE/ref=pd_sim_d_6) - filmed by a Soviet soldier. This is part of a series w/intros by Simon Wisenthal. Here's another (http://www.amazon.com/Holocaust-Liberation-Majdanek-Simon-Wiesenthal/dp/B000F48DDM/ref=pd_sim_d_27)- you can find more on Amazon.

Partisans of Vilna (http://www.amazon.com/Partisans-Vilna-Roberta-Wallach/dp/B0007GP6YW/ref=pd_sim_d_32) (the director also did Image before my Eyes (http://www.amazon.com/Image-Before-My-Eyes-History/dp/B000CRR3J2/ref=reg_hu-wl_mrai-recs) about Jewish life in Poland before the Holocaust. I haven't seen it, but I've heard good things about it. - similar topic (and also one I have not seen) A Yiddish World Remembered (http://www.amazon.com/Yiddish-World-Remembered-Documentary-Goldberg/dp/B0012XP27U/ref=pd_cp_d_1?pf_rd_p=413864101&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000CRR3J2&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1DXJTQ7TX4767XKWEMWS) so often the only mention of Jews in history studies is during the Holocaust... how many kids' history books mention Jews in Europe in the middle ages? (other than those written for and by Jews))

Into the Arms of Strangers - Stories of the Kindertransport (http://www.amazon.com/Into-Arms-Strangers-Stories-Kindertransport/dp/B00005MEPJ/ref=pd_sim_d_25)

Broken Silence (http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Silence-Jack-Fuchs/dp/B00018D4PO/ref=pd_sim_d_3)- 5 short films each narrated by survivors in a different country

Triumph of Will (http://www.amazon.com/Triumph-Will-Adolf-Hitler/dp/B000E41MRC/ref=pd_bbs_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1238724611&sr=8-3)-
Triumph of the Will is one of the most important films ever made. Not because it documents evil--more watchable examples are being made today. And not as a historical example of blind propaganda--those (much shorter) movies are merely laughable now. No, Riefenstahl's masterpiece--and it is a masterpiece, politics aside--combines the strengths of documentary and propaganda into a single, overwhelmingly powerful visual force. Riefenstahl was hired by the Reich to create an eternal record of the 1934 rally at Nuremberg, and that's exactly what she does. You might not become a Nazi after watching her film, but you will understand too clearly how Germany fell under Hitler's spell. The early crowd scenes remind one of nothing so much as Beatles concert footage (if only their fans were so well behaved!).
Like the fascists it monumentalizes, Triumph of the Will overlooks its own weaknesses--at nearly two hours, the speeches tend to drone on, and the repeated visual motifs are a little over-hypnotic, especially for modern viewers. But the occasional iconic vista (banners lining the streets of Nuremberg, Hitler parting a sea of 200,000 party members standing at attention) will electrify anyone into wakefulness Jud Suss (http://www.amazon.com/Jud-Suss-Jew-Suess-Restored/dp/B0017ZGYR0/ref=pd_sim_d_26) - classic Goebbels propaganda

The World At War (http://www.amazon.com/World-War-30th-Anniversary/dp/B0002F6AH0/ref=pd_sim_d_13) - a gigantic collection (surely your library will have it!) I was thinking specifically of the 'Genocide' section.


Life is Beautiful (http://www.amazon.com/Life-Beautiful-Claudio-Alfonsi/dp/B00001U0DP/ref=sr_1_39?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1238710182&sr=1-39) is a beautiful film - well, well worth watching, but not one I would choose as part of Holocaust research.... I do not feel it adds anything to learning about the Shoah... it is a delightful comedic tragedy, but anything one learned from it about the Holocaust is likely to be false. (I own the film, I love it, but I do not recommend it in this context, if that makes sense.)

The Power of Conscience: The Danish Resistance and the Rescue of the Jews (http://www.amazon.com/Power-Conscience-Danish-Resistance-Rescue/dp/B000OYNWEI/ref=pd_sim_d_92)

The Port of Last Resort: Zuflucht in Shanghai (http://www.amazon.com/Port-Last-Resort-Zuflucht-Shanghai/dp/B0009W4LL8/ref=pd_sim_d_9)

Three films recommended to me which I have not seen: Fateless (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EQ5Q2W/ref=cm_cr_asin_lnk), Grey Zone (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000087EYX/ref=cm_cr_asin_lnk), Divided We Fall (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005QFE6/ref=cm_cr_asin_lnk)

[Eliana]

CDs:

Voices of the Shoah: Remembrances of the Holocaust (http://www.amazon.com/Voices-Shoah-Remembrances-Various-Artists/dp/B00004R5Z2/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2O0ROE9ETD6GM&colid=2YN5GBLHUKAS2) - audio recordings of first person narrations of their experiences/memories.

Brundibar (http://www.amazon.com/Hans-Kr%C3%A1sa-Brundib%C3%A1r-Michael-Drumheller/dp/B000K97RKC/ref=pd_sim_b_3) - opera written in Terezin to be performed bythe children there (modern recording, not performed in the camp by the kids...) From the Amazon page:
children's opera Brundibár (Czech for "bumblebee") by Hans Krása, born in Prague in 1899 and murdered in Auschwitz in 1944. Performed by the camp's children 55 times - with the cast changing as the performers were deported and killed - it became a symbol of the prisoners' undaunted creativity.

Books:

Aish.com has a Holocaust resources page (http://www.aish.com/holocaust/Resources/) you might find helpful (including a bibliography page) - I've tried not to list books here which are on their bibliography page.

Especially for kids, the scope of the Holocaust is mindboggling - hard to even begin to absorb. I think it is important to focus on the personal - and to represent a variety of experiences.

The classic personal memoir is Eli Wiesel's Night (http://www.amazon.com/Night-Oprahs-Book-Club-Wiesel/dp/0374500010/ref=reg_hu-wl_mrai-recs) - and deservedly so.
Another adult memoir is Primo Levi's Survival in Auschwitz (http://www.amazon.com/Survival-Auschwitz-Primo-Levi/dp/0684826801/ref=pd_sim_d_35).

And another: From the Ashes of Sobibar (http://www.amazon.com/Ashes-Sobibor-Story-Survival-Jewish/dp/0810113023/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b) (there is a film about the Sobibar concentration camp uprising: Escape from Sobibar (http://www.amazon.com/Escape-Sobibor-Rutger-Hauer/dp/B00005BJWC/ref=pd_sim_b_1)- the author of the memoir, Blatt, is portrayed in it...)

Auschwitz: True Tales from A Grotesque Land (http://www.amazon.com/Auschwitz-True-Tales-Grotesque-Land/dp/0807841609/ref=pd_sim_b_6) - a woman's memoir... *harrowing* All these are intense, often explicit books, but this one needs, imho, extra screening.

Also in need of extra screen: Different Voices: Women and the Holocaust (http://www.amazon.com/Different-Voices-Carol-Ann-Rittner/dp/155778504X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238719160&sr=1-1) - I first read this when I was pregnant with dd#2, which gave some of the stories an extra level of inensity and horror. The first section is the most powerful (Voices of Experience), the interpretation and reflection are also valuable, but it is the raw voices of personal experience which made this book a stand out for me... but *please* be aware that it deals with even more intense and non-child friendly (imho) material than most Holocaust memoirs/descriptions. It is very valuable & deals with a viewpoint we rarely get to see, but screen it.

Anne Frank's Diary is the standard children's memoir.

The Upstairs Room (http://www.amazon.com/Upstairs-Room-Trophy-Newbery/dp/006440370X/ref=pd_sim_b_86) is another children's classic.

My favorite book is a collection of vignettes by Esther Hautzig Remember Who You Are - not all of the anecdotes are Holocaust related, but many are (some focus more on the aftermath, but they give a range of distinct individuals and show the impact on a very personal scale. Her Endless Steppe is also well worth reading - though it deals with her time exiled in Siberia with her parents and one grandmother.

Notes from the Warsaw Ghetto (http://www.amazon.com/Notes-Warsaw-Ghetto-Emmanuel-Ringelblum/dp/1596873310/ref=pd_sim_d_42)-

The Bravest Battle: 28 days of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (http://www.amazon.com/Bravest-Battle-Twenty-eight-Warsaw-Uprising/dp/0306805332/ref=pd_sim_b_1)

I Never Saw Another Butterfly (http://www.amazon.com/I-Never-Saw-Another-Butterfly/dp/0805210156/ref=pd_sim_b_10) - children's artwork, poetry, etc from Terezin.

The Children We Remember (http://www.amazon.com/Children-Remember-Chana-Byers-Abells/dp/0688063713/ref=pd_sim_b_56) - archival photos from Yad VaShem. NOt a lot of words, but *very* powerful... especially b/c it includes photos from before as well as during the Holocaust.

Kindertransport (http://www.amazon.com/Kindertransport-Olga-Levy-Drucker/dp/0805042512/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238715981&sr=1-1) - memoir of a girl sent to England on the Kindertransport

Light One Candle (http://www.amazon.com/Light-One-Candle-Survivors-Lithuania/dp/1568363524/ref=pd_sim_d_20)

Shanghai Remembered: Stories of Jews who escaped to Shanghai from Nazi Europe (http://www.amazon.com/Shanghai-Remembered-Stories-Escaped-Europe/dp/1879094738/ref=reg_hu-wl_list-recs)

A Conspiracy of Decency: The Rescue of the Danish Jews During WWII (http://www.amazon.com/Conspiracy-Decency-Rescue-Danish-During/dp/0813342783/ref=pd_sim_d_13)

Boats in the Night: Knud Dyby's Involvement in the Rescue of the Danish Jews and the Dainish Resistance (http://www.amazon.com/Boats-Night-Involvement-Rescue-Resistance/dp/0930697073/ref=pd_sim_d_6)

Some books from Feldheim publishers (note:
Lidingo (http://www.amazon.com/Lidingo-Chana-Mantel/dp/0873068807/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238720981&sr=1-4)
The small Swedish island of Lidingo became a haven for the homeless, shattered girls saved from the ravages of the Holocaust. There they received the warmth, love, and Jewish education they so desperately needed in order to rebuild their lives. A beautifully written historical account of chilling memoirs, poignant recollections of the past, and stories of the healing years in Lidingo. Shefford (http://www.feldheim.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=1-58330-633-1&type=store&category=110)
The extraordinary, true story of a Jewish school community in evacuation during World War II, from 1939 until 1945. Written by the esteemed head of London's Jewish Secondary School, who oversaw the evacuation and education of five hundred Jewish schoolchildren in the tiny village of Shefford, England, this book is heartwarming and inspiring. When the gentile Sheffordians welcomed in the Jewish schoolchildren, they were in for an enormous surprise, but their puzzlement and resentment was quickly overcome and the next six years were memorable ones. This is a fascinating story of triumph and faith in the face of hardship and challenge
Shema Yisrael: testimonies of Devotion, Courage, and Self Sacrifice (http://www.feldheim.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=1-56871-271-5&type=store&category=142)
unique in the annals of Holocaust Literature. Compiled under the auspices of the Kaliver Rebbe Shlita, himself a survivor of Hitler's inferno, it is a collection of more than five hundred first-person accounts of mesiras nefesh, self-sacrifice under the most dire conditionsGutta: Memories of a Vanished World (http://www.feldheim.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=1-58330-779-6&type=store&category=110)
he gripping, poignant, and honest memoir of a Bais Yaakov teacher. The detailed account of Chassidic life in pre-war Poland, the spine-tingling description of the poverty, fear, and the unfailing spiritual heroism, make this account particularly exceptional. With numerous original and rare photographs, and its strikingly readable style, this book tells the tale of the war years with a historical overview.
Three related books I have not read, but have on my list:
Shanghai Refuge (http://www.amazon.com/Shanghai-Refuge-Memoir-Jewish-Ghetto/dp/0803272812/ref=reg_hu-wl_list-recs), Strange Haven (http://www.amazon.com/Strange-Haven-Childhood-Wartime-Shanghai/dp/0252076249/ref=pd_sim_d_26), and In My Hands (http://www.amazon.com/My-Hands-Memories-Holocaust-Rescuer/dp/0553494112/ref=reg_hu-wl_list-recs)

Post-Holocaust:

Eichmann in Jerusalem (http://www.amazon.com/Eichmann-Jerusalem-Banality-Penguin-Classics/dp/0143039881/ref=pd_sim_b_15) - Arendt
Nuremberg Trials (http://www.amazon.com/Nuremberg-Trials-C-Svilov/dp/B000REWYQ2/ref=pd_bbs_sr_8?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1238720331&sr=8-8) - dvd footage

[Cindy in WA]

We had the privilege of visiting Yad Vashem in Jerusalem. It is dedicated to all the Jewish people who lost their lives in the Holocaust. Deeply moving does not begin to describe the experience. I wish your students, all of our students, could go to see it, but they do have a website:
http://www.yadvashem.org/
Cindy

[Eliana]

It is a personal narrative of his time in Buchenwald and Auschwitz as a teenager. He goes from a very Strong Orthodox Jew to someone that loses their faith.

I do not think Wiesel's journey was that simple, nor did it end when the book ended - the struggle can be traced through all of his writings. Here (http://www.stsci.edu/%7Erdouglas/publications/suff/suff.html)is a nice, if very brief, summary by Rob Douglas of one reading of Wiesel's spiritual journey as seen in his writings. I hope everyone who is interested can take a look at it.

My sister had the joy of taking some classes from Wiesel at Boston University almost 15 years ago (can it really have been that long?). She described vividly his passion, his kindness, his serenity, and his faith... though he still questioned and challenged (a traditional Jewish approach to G-d ;)).

Here (http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/wie0int-1) is a lovely interview with him.

He studies Gemara (Talmud) every day, [not mentioned in the interview] he's an active member of New York's Modern Orthodox Fifth Avenue Synagogue...

I think even in his crisis of faith, on a heart level, he had more faith than most consciously religious folk do... but he had to reject the simplistic answers of childhood and, through unimaginable pain, loss, and upheaval, discover that questioning, challenging, speaking out - even to G-d, no, especially to G-d, was part of his spiritual make up, part of his expression of faith. My haskafa (philosophy/worldview) isn't his, but I am amazed by his faith and dedication.

Sorry about that rant... I just didn't want anyone to judge his faith based on the struggles he went through, and shared the beginnings of in Night.

[Eliana]

I found the excerpts of the Holocaust references I read extremely offensive. fwiw and ymmv

Okay, that wasn't fair of me. I should have said either more or less... but I hesitated to share my candid reaction.

I do not mean what I am going to say as an attack on anyone nor am I attacking Xtianity itself.

I can't think how to say this without being candid to the point of possible offense, but now that I've opened this can of worms... and after spending so much time to day thinking about Holocaust related stuff...

From what I have read, the film, repeatedly and with extensive archival footage, asserted that belief in Darwinian evolution led to the Holocaust.

I can hardly type the words, I find it so sickeningly offensive a concept, and for it to come from a film produced by a Xtian organization outrages me.


A better argument could be made that Xtianitity led to the Holocaust (I do *not* believe that) than that Darwinian evolution did.

Without centuries of Xtian anti-Semitism in Europe - much of it taught from pulpits - I do not believe the Holocaust could have happened.

It was not Darwinists who burned down Jewish homes in Poland, murdered Jewish children, and defaced Jewish cemetaries on their way home from their evolutionary meetings. And for representatives of a faith whose leaders failed so hideously to live up to its own teachings to use the evils of the Holocaust to demonize the beliefs of others is inexcusable.

It is worse than seeing Auschwitz footage used to sell beer would be.

It is a violation of the memories of those who died.

... I guess that is someone's cue to say "Why don't you tell us how you really feel..."

This bothered me when I first read about it... as you can see my reaction is much stronger after spending so much time thinking which stories, which images could best convey some part of the whole thing to someone... saying it helped a little... and let me cry.

Lisaj, I hope you know that none of this outburst was aimed at *you*. You innocently shared a resource you'd appreciated... I'm sorry if my passion here makes you feel jumped on...

[Eliana]

I wanted to post (one last time, really!) and share an excerpt from a review (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24239755/) which summarizes the use of the Holocaust in Expelled (unfortunately, I could not find the more detailed reviews I read when the film came out...):

Then, and most culpably in terms of the downright immorality of the movie and everyone associated with it, we are presented with what will happen if we keep teaching Darwinism in our schools. The logical consequence of Darwinism is Nazi eugenics: the state directed murder of the handicapped, mentally ill, political dissidents and racial "inferiors"!

No, I am not making this up. The core of the movie consists of a sequence in which Stein visits the former German psychiatric hospital at Hadamar where the mass sterilization and murder techniques were first perfected that were later to be used in the concentration camps. Then Ben heads to Dachau, the first concentration camp, where 35,000 people died. These excursions are followed by a visit to Down House, Charles Darwin’s country home outside of London where Ben looks warily at the memorabilia of Darwin’s scientific work that led him to posit the theory of evolution. Stein finishes this sequence by bravely visiting a statue of Darwin where he stares the long deceased now marbleized evil-doer down while making it clear who is directly to blame for Hitler, the sterilization of tens of thousands of German children, the death of 6 million Jews and the deaths of countless other millions of victims of Nazism and those who died fighting the Nazi regime.



This frighteningly immoral narrative is capped off with a lot of shots of the Berlin Wall, old stock footage of East German police kicking around those trying to escape through the wall to the West and some solemn blather by Ben, who calls upon each one of us to rise up in defense of freedom and knock down a few walls in order to get creationism back into the curriculum at Iowa State, Baylor, and other dens of American secular iniquity.



Why Darwinism doesn't equal Nazism
This is the core of what is ethically rotten about this movie. Darwinism did not lead to Nazism in Germany. Nor does Darwinism inherently contain the seeds of Nazism.



There were many nations, such as Brazil, where Darwinism led to no political ideology. There were some such as Britain which embraced Darwinism but saw a considerable number of their population killed trying to eliminate Nazism. There were other nations, such as the Soviet Union, where Darwinism was seen as so dangerous and subversive to state sponsored dreams of social engineering that those who espoused it were killed or exiled and a complete biological fairy tale, Lysenkoism, put into classrooms and agricultural policy ultimately leading to the deaths of millions from starvation.



And there were some nations where Darwinism was greeted with glee because it seemed so compatible with the prevailing ideology of the day. In particular the United States at the turn of the 20th century where robber-baron capitalists like the Carnegies, Mellons, Sumners, Stanfords and yes, even Jack London, could not stop rattling on about how the "survival of the fittest" justified crushing unions, exploiting immigrant labor or being left unregulated to amass huge fortunes while administering monopolies.



Ben Stein apparently understands none of this. He flags Darwin but does not bother to go and stare at the busts of Adam Smith, Herbert Spencer, Ernst Haeckel, Thomas Malthus so much beloved by American proponents of survival of the fittest.



Worse yet, while frowning at Darwin’s statute in a manly fashion, Stein makes no mention of the key factors driving Nazi ideology — racism, homophobia and hatred of the mentally ill and disabled.



To lay blame for the Holocaust upon Charles Darwin is to engage in a form of Holocaust denial that should forever make Ben Stein the subject of scorn not because of his nudnik concern that evolution somehow undermines morality but because in this contemptible movie he is willing to subvert the key reason why the Holocaust took place — racism — to serve his own ideological end. Expelled indeed.
Arthur Caplan, Ph.D., is director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania.
© 2009 msnbc.com Reprints (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3303539/)

[Pamela H in Texas]

I don't know if it's been mentioned (as I have seen it on other such threads), but....

There were other populations involved in the holocaust that sometimes get overlooked. I don't have resources on all of them, of course, but I would like to share a couple ideas.

There is a video called Jehovah's Witnesses STAND FIRM Against Nazi Assault (the Stand Firm is the big words on the box). I know you could ask a Witness to borrow it or order it (donation of your choice) at a Kingdom Hall.

There are some books you can probably get through your library also. One that was hard to read (emotionally) but an easy read was Facing The Lion by Simone Liebster. Here is a little information (mid page): http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/Jehovah.htm

A JW could also help you find life story autobiographical articles of interest. We have access to hundreds of them. If you wanted man, woman, child, whatever. It may help to talk to a local JW, but if you'd like, I could help.

Anyway, I'm sure you got LOTs of ideas, but I thought I'd offer some less known about ones.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Wow Eliana....

Thanks for the references! My daughter is considering doing the holocaust (though likely with a different focus than many) for her big research/speech project in the summer.

Thank you too for the book review of The Boy in the Striped Pajamas.

[outtamyshell]

My daughter didn't make it through The Diary of Anne Frank when she read it in 3rd or 4th grade. It was such a downer at the end and I needed to lift her spirits and get her away from it. I think if I approached the Holocaust with a teenager I would look for some lesson learning/uplifting lessons where possible. We went through the Holocaust museum in DC a couple years ago, and I know our spirits would be dragged too far down by an extended study like this.

Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl
I haven't read it myself, so I don't know the appropriateness for a teenager. But there are great lessons to be learned from him.

Letters & Papers from Prison by Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Another one I haven't read, but I heard J Rufus Fears discuss it in Books That Changed History, Books that Can Change Your Life. I love his take on duty. Bonhoeffer worked against his country out of duty and the judges who sentenced him did so out of duty. You might want to pick this lecture up from the library and listen to just the first couple of lectures.

Schindler's List
The lesson I took from this movie is how God can use somebody to bring about good. I love that he's such a flawed man before and after this part of his life - and yet God still used him for good. The movie is graphic enough for me to capture the horror of the time, but what sticks with me most is the old folks at the end putting stones on his grave.

[ncmomo3]

I Am David (with James Caviezel, Joan Plowright)
here (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0327919/)

It is very good story, but a bit gentler if you have some that are very sensitive.

[Chris in VA]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned--it is emotionally difficult to wade thru the Holocaust posts for me.
Here is a site we used about Schindler's List (http://www.southerninstitute.info/holocaust_education/slindex.html) and here is a really rich website (http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/gallery/FWALL.htm) with teacher resources and art work from inmates.
Again, I apologize if these were already mentioned.

[Nan in Mass]

And the holocaust was a remote event for my family, and I'm not familiar with most of the resources you listed. I can't even imagine how hard it must have been for you to write it all out. You are bravely doing your part to try to ensure it doesn't happen again. I can't end this with "I appreciate it" because I don't want to presume and make it sound like I, too, have contributed, but I just wanted you to know someone noticed.
Humbly,
Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Mine have read about it in their history books and they read Number the Stars when they were little, but the whole subject is so horrifying that my both my children have begged me not to make them study it in more depth. (The same thing happened with US slavery. The most I did for that was teach them songs and make them read a children's book about slavery through the ages and make sure that they knew it still exists some places.) So - I leave the holocaust horrors for when they are older and decide to educate themselves about them, and instead focus on how so many people who considered themselves Christians came to allow so many horrible things to be done, and how they can keep themselves from ever participating in something like that. What one will or will not do to stay alive is a constant theme in our discussions anyway, due to the peacewalking, so this particular discussion is an extension of that. I found the following NPR program useful as an illustration of what to watch for in oneself:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=818
Act two is the most relevent.
-Nan

[74Heaven]

disclaimer (fwiw) and let it go. I felt your POV was yours and needed no further note from me.

First, Expelled is *not* about the Holocaust; it is a footnote in the movie; a sidetrack designed to show that evolution has invaded societal influences, from teh political to the medical, etc.

Expelled does not assert that belief in Darwinism led the the Holocaust.

The movie does assert that Darwinism overall, and eventually over generations slowly influences a worldview that devalues life. Certainly not the only factor, but one of many factors, hate being the key ingredient of the horrors of the holocaust.

The footage of the Berlin Wall (there was a lot of it) have nothing to do with Nazi Germany. The wall is a metaphor for the barrier between ID and science education.

I just now asked my 14yo dtr why the wall was shown in the movie (and while she was mopping the kitchen floor (bless her) w/o stopping to think, she said (I quote) "to show that just like the people in the Communist countries were shut out from freedom, people who believe in Intelligent Design are shut out of the freedom to talk about what theya believe with scientists." (that is all the wall was about - the barrier that is stopping ID people from being part of the debate.) She said it perfectly.

Here is a quote from, Arthur Caplan: Expelled "lay(s) the blame of the holocaust on Charles Darwin". [/B] Darwinism as a contributing factor, sure, it does say that. And then your quote: <<From what I have read, the film, repeatedly and with extensive ar chival footage, asserted that belief in Darwinian evolution led to the Holocaust.>>

The MOVIE doesn't say that at all, or lead to any version of that conclusion.

I don't take Expelled as straight science - it reminded me of the Michael Moore type of "exploitive" documentary.

But... Expelled is thought-provoking and I talked about it with my teens extensively so they could separate the fact from the hyperbole.

I also believe the basic tenets of Darwinism have contributed to a worldview that devalues human life. If life is not the *supreme* gift of God (or the supreme gift from some source),, then you do get racism and anti-semitism, abortion and eugenics and physician-assisted suicide. And imho, capital punishment.

I suggest people see the movie OR read extensively about it from *both* sides. I don't think Caplan's one-sided angry tirade contributes much to the dialogue.

HTH.
Lisaj

[Eliana]

I also believe the basic tenets of Darwinism have contributed to a worldview that devalues human life. If life is not the *supreme* gift of God (or the supreme gift from some source),, then you do get racism and anti-semitism, abortion and eugenics and physician-assisted suicide. And imho, capital punishment.I am so baffled by this.

Capital punishment, racism, antisemitism, suicide (whether doctor assisted or not), and even some forms of abortion all significantly predate Darwin, and I see no reasonable, intellectually honest connection.

I feel that drawing in such emotional explosive topics derails any useful discussion about evolution, creation, or intelligent design. It adds a lot of heat, but I don't see any light.

...and even if the film doesn't go as far as the reviews I've read indicate; even if the words spoken were the yours which I have quoted above - combining that with Holocaust images makes the connection in and of itself. [I'll quote the ADL's press release below.]

I don't want to debate the movie or ID in this thread (if you want a detailed discussion of either, perhaps you could start a separate thread?), so I will restate my central point and we can agree to disagree: I believe that the film's use of Holocaust references and images was inexcusable, and using even the line of argument you used in your post is... I have no words for the pain and horror I feel.

Anti-Evolution Film Misappropriates the Holocaust

New York, NY, April 29, 2008 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today issued the following statement regarding the controversial film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.

The film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed misappropriates the Holocaust and its imagery as a part of its political effort to discredit the scientific community which rejects so-called intelligent design theory.

Hitler did not need Darwin to devise his heinous plan to exterminate the Jewish people and Darwin and evolutionary theory cannot explain Hitler's genocidal madness.

Using the Holocaust in order to tarnish those who promote the theory of evolution is outrageous and trivializes the complex factors that led to the mass extermination of European Jewry.

The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.

[Eliana]

I don't know if it's been mentioned (as I have seen it on other such threads), but....

There were other populations involved in the holocaust that sometimes get overlooked. I don't have resources on all of them, of course, but I would like to share a couple ideas.

There is a video called Jehovah's Witnesses STAND FIRM Against Nazi Assault (the Stand Firm is the big words on the box). I know you could ask a Witness to borrow it or order it (donation of your choice) at a Kingdom Hall.

There are some books you can probably get through your library also. One that was hard to read (emotionally) but an easy read was Facing The Lion by Simone Liebster. Here is a little information (mid page): http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/Jehovah.htm

A JW could also help you find life story autobiographical articles of interest. We have access to hundreds of them. If you wanted man, woman, child, whatever. It may help to talk to a local JW, but if you'd like, I could help.

Anyway, I'm sure you got LOTs of ideas, but I thought I'd offer some less known about ones.

Pamela, Thank you - I feel embarrassed that I did not include anything about others who were also targeted. I appreciate your reminder.

[Eliana]

((Eliana)) I was shaking when I got done with your list...

Oh, honey, so was I...

And the holocaust was a remote event for my family, and I'm not familiar with most of the resources you listed. I can't even imagine how hard it must have been for you to write it all out. You are bravely doing your part to try to ensure it doesn't happen again. I can't end this with "I appreciate it" because I don't want to presume and make it sound like I, too, have contributed, but I just wanted you to know someone noticed. Humbly, Nan

((Nan)) Thank you. Elie Wiesel says that anyone who hears a witness to the Shoah becomes a witness too... and as we lose our remaining survivors, that responsibility presses more and more on my heart.

Mine have read about it in their history books and they read Number the Stars when they were little, but the whole subject is so horrifying that my both my children have begged me not to make them study it in more depth. (The same thing happened with US slavery. The most I did for that was teach them songs and make them read a children's book about slavery through the ages and make sure that they knew it still exists some places.)

My kids haven't used most of our resources (my lists are from my reading/learning over the years)- they have such sensitive hearts, and the intensity is hard to take.

...but the hardest concept, emotionally, for me as well as for them is that this didn't have to happen. That people's friends, neighbors, coworkers stood aside and let it happen. ...it terrifies dd#2 when she thinks about all the decent people, the well meaning ones, the ones who lived ordinary kind and loving lives who, through their own fears or prejudices or who knows what allowed and/or participated in this. It fuels her passion for speaking out against injustices (or perceived injustices).

I think the production we saw recently of Merchant of Venice helped us both make a little more sense of the senselessness. It had the most unsympathetic Antonio I have ever seen... and yet it never once made him a caricature... he was so real and vivid that we could envision his background and worldview in a great deal of complexity... we could sense some of the hardship and emotional repression that had made him who he was, and his Xtian faith was palpable.... I have never seen the vicious self-righteousness of his climactic destruction of Shylock so clearly before - and throughout the play his antisemitism was as palpable as his religious faith, and inextricably bound into it.

And Shylock... oh, Nan, I wish you could see it!

I come from a generation which grew up with a strong, independent Jewish state, with stories of the Vilna partisans, the Warsaw ghetto uprising, and the determination that runs through us all now that the Shoah will never happen again... that the years of cringing before antisemitic attacks were over... and that we would work - and fight if need be- to protect ourselves and each other.

This Shylock was an adult in the 1930's, clearly an immigrant from Eastern Europe, and his powerlessness in the face of constant mistreatment & belittlement - treatment he must accept with a smile and with deference - turns to resentment... a resentment so poisonous and ugly that, when his daughter is seduced into apostasy - taking his late wife's mementos with her only to sell them on the way - he decides to follow through on his vengeful fantasy.

His destruction at the end rips away all the poisonous anger and bitterness and all we can see is the pain - a pain that echoes through the centuries of European Jewish experience.

I need a quietly sobbing smiley here. This has been a harrowing thread for me.

So - I leave the holocaust horrors for when they are older and decide to educate themselves about them, and instead focus on how so many people who considered themselves Christians came to allow so many horrible things to be done, and how they can keep themselves from ever participating in something like that. What one will or will not do to stay alive is a constant theme in our discussions anyway, due to the peacewalking, so this particular discussion is an extension of that. I found the following NPR program useful as an illustration of what to watch for in oneself:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=818
Act two is the most relevent.
-Nan

We have that conversation too - our tradition teaches that to save your life you may - you must- do anything except: murder (doesn't include killing someone who is actively pursuing you to kill you), idolatry, or adultery... though if you are being asked to violate any mitzvah in a time when doing so could lead others away from Torah, then you may not violate even the smallest mitzvah.

The thing I most wish were taught involves no horrors... I wish my people were included in secular history as something other than precursors to Xtianity and/or victims. I know it is harder as we have lacked a homeland for so many years, but we have a history... and to have the memory of Jewish Vilna, for example, not even exist for most people... only its destruction and those who destroyed it written up in the history books.

This needs to be edited, for coherence if nothing else, but I can't go back and reread it right now - so forgive the rawness. On this I have no detachment to bring to the discussion, only raw passion inadequately filtered through broken words.

[Jane in NC]

Dear Eliana,

I repeatedly write and delete posts in this thread.

Let me commend you for your bravery and thank you for educating all of us.

My eyes were first opened to the horrors of the Holocaust when I was a naive, Midwestern college girl who had traveled to Communist Poland for the sake of visiting Krakow. A young Polish man, an English major whom I met, insisted that we make the trip to Auschwitz; it is a pilgrimage, he said, that everyone should make.

I am perpetually grateful to that young man who helped me to see, who shook me out of my impassivity which so many unknowingly embrace. His was a job that had to be done.

If only I had your power of language, but I do not. All I can say is thank you, Eliana, for helping us all to remember.

XXOO,
Jane

[RebeccaC]

There are many ways to view the Holocaust. I want to weigh in on this because it has touched our family. Dh's step father is a survivor and our oldest son is named for my great uncle who escaped Denmark the night Hitler invaded. Neither dh nor I were raised as Jews so I think our perspective is a bit different from Eliana's. We are both Christians with varying degrees of Jewish backgrounds. His mother was an ultra orthodox Jew who lived in the neighborhoods just above Yad Vashem in Jerusalem.

I am right now developing a course on a high school level and on a Bible school college level on this subject but from a different angle. The Bible college level course will be titled something like the Righteous Response to the Final Solution. It is still up in the air what the high school course will be titled but it will probably be, History of Non-Violent Resistance during WWII.

Part of what will be explored is what was different about the Christianity of Corrie Ten boom, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Maximilian Kolbe, ect..... and most of the rest of Europe. Was Oskar Schindler a modern type of the Biblical Cyrus. What was the motivation of the White Rose resistance, their Christian beliefs or a more humanistic response. Why did the Danes stand up as a nation and the Dutch, German, Polish, ect.... did not. Other folks who worked against Hitler in Europe will also be looked at I just do not have time to post them all. This will be paired with Biblical studies on what does it mean to a be a type of or shadow of a Hebrew midwife, a Cyrus, One of the 3 Hebrew Children, and did Jeremiah influence the parents of the 3 Hebrew Children and Daniel and if so how did that influence play out in their parenting, how was Jesus and Stephen able to pray Father forgive them... as they died and how were Paul and Silas able to sing praises in a dark prison after being flogged, and finally what does it mean, no greater love than this to lay down your life for a friend and to go beyond that and lay down your life for a stranger.

One thing that I will bring up is there is a difference between those who are Christian for cultural reasons, because grandma was or some medieval king made us convert and those who have a real relationship with Christ. There is a difference between being religious and having a living relationship with Christ and just what is that difference and how does that play out in our relationship with unrighteous governments?

My step-fil was hid by Corrie Ten booms group as were his brothers. I think that it is an easy argument that Corrie's families core relationship with their God motivated their actions where as the cultural Christianity of many Europeans allowed other wise good folks to look the other way or even to participate. While my step-fil was spared his parents were both gassed. My uncle for whom my oldest son is named was the only survivor of his immediate family and he survive because of the attitude of the Danish resistance. Until her death a couple of years ago my step-fil visited the woman who hid him and raised him from 3 to 10 in Holland. He said that he did not remember his mother and that the Dutch woman was the closest person to being a mother to him on earth.

I also think it is fair to look and debate the idea that Darwinism might help to legitimize world views that profane life, views that might not be legitimized if Evolution were not held like it is. In other words did Darwinism help to propel Eugenics? Eugenics were certainly part of the foundation of the final solution but was the influence of Darwinism on the culture enough to birth Eugenics. Does Darwinism have any bearing on how life is valued today? I do not want to debate this right now I just think it is fair and prudent to ask these types of questions.

[Spy Car]

This is not a thread I can post on without water filled eyes. Deep-breath.

I've been deeply moved by so many of the films mentioned.

Shoah. If there were only one film (and there should not be) this one is perhaps most wide-ranging and complete.

Night and Fog. I was just stunned seeing this film as a child. I'm fighting tears at the memory.

Au Revoir Les Enfants. Beautiful heart-wrenching film.

Partisans of Vilna.

Kindertransport

Genocide

My father was instrumental in making "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" in 1968, and I remember many hours spent in his editing room as a 9-10 year old watching footage of the camps that never could have aired on television. Those images I'll forget.

In 1996 I was honored to edit the film Never Give Up: The 20th Century Odyssey of Herbert Zipper, the story of a survivor of Dachau and Buchenwald. Dr Zipper was a wonderful man who used his life great good. The film received an Academy Award nomination for short-documentary.

There are so many more.

Bill

[Spy Car]

I don't know if it's been mentioned (as I have seen it on other such threads), but....

There were other populations involved in the holocaust that sometimes get overlooked. I don't have resources on all of them, of course, but I would like to share a couple ideas.

There is a video called Jehovah's Witnesses STAND FIRM Against Nazi Assault (the Stand Firm is the big words on the box). I know you could ask a Witness to borrow it or order it (donation of your choice) at a Kingdom Hall.

Pamela, I want to extend my deepest thanks for bringing this beautiful and important film to my attention.

While I was aware that many Jehovah's Witnesses perished in the camps, this film brought to life the courage the Witnesses showed in the face of evil and deepened my understanding in a very profound way. I just finished watching the film, I'm deeply moved.

I strongly recommend any person of good-will whose interested in the power of the human spirit to strand firm in the face of evil watch this film. It is very inspiring.

Thanks again Pamela.

Bill

An online copy can be found at:

http://ia311332.us.archive.org/3/items/WatchTowerBibleandTractSocietyofPennsylvaniaJehova h_sWitnessesStandFirmAgainstNaziAs/JehovahsWitnessesStandFirmAgainstNaziAssault.mov

[Michelle in MO]

I copied and pasted this from another thread, since there's no need to re-state what everyone else has already added:


1. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Letters and Papers from Prison, The Cost of Discipleship, Ethics--these should definitely still be in print

2. Leonard Gross, The Last Jews of Berlin, 1982. I just did a search for this; I couldn't find it, so I'm not sure if it's still in print. It told the stories of some Jews who managed to survive the Holocaust while hiding in Berlin, and although it wasn't very well written, it was nevertheless very informative.

3. Exile in the Fatherland: Martin Niemoller's Letters from Moabit Prison

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Exile-in-the-Fatherland/Martin-Niemoller/e/9780802801883/?itm=1

4. Hans and Sophie Scholl: German Resisters of the White Rose

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Hans-and-Sophie-Scholl/Toby-Axelrod/e/9781562544515/?itm=2

5. The excellent movie: "Sophie Scholl: Die Letzten Tage" ("Sophie Scholl: The Last Days) in German with English subtitles. Although their resistance group "The White Rose" was not specifically Christian in origin, nevertheless the Scholls, Christoph Probst, Professor Kurt Huber, and others were deeply committed Christians. Sadly, their resistance was at the time obviously not as effective as what they would have wished; nevertheless they did what they knew to do at that time. There is a memorial to The White Rose at the Ludwig-Maximilian University in Munich.

http://video.barnesandnoble.com/DVD/Sophie-Scholl-The-Final-Days/Julia-Jentsch/e/795975108331/?itm=1

Now, I have not personally read this book, but interestingly enough, my thesis advisor's mother was one of the women who was involved in this protest! Her husband (who was Jewish), the professor's father, was one of the men imprisoned on Rosenstrasse.

6. Resistance of the Heart: Intermarriage and the Rosenstrasse Protest in Nazi Germany

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Resistance-of-the-Heart/Nathan-Stoltzfus/e/980813529097/?itm=4

I saw this movie recently about the episode, entitled "Rosenstrasse." It was good, but the movie about Sophie Scholl was excellent and very powerful. I would not recommend it for young children, though, as it is fairly intense.

http://video.barnesandnoble.com/search/results.asp?quickSearchType=TTL&FRM=0&quickSearchText=Rosenstrasse

7. Eric Boehm, We Survived: The Stories of Fourteen of the Hidden and Hunted of Nazi Germany

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=We+Survived%3A++THe+Stories+of+Fou rteen+of+the+Hidden+and+Hunted+in+Nazi+Germany

There are many, many books on this subject, not all of them about Germans. You could read about Raoul Wallenberg, Anne Frank (of course), Corrie ten Boom, Elie Wiesel, Wladislaw Szpilman ("The Pianist"), and many many others.

It is all very sobering reading.

[Janie]

I had to read the play "Taking Sides" in a graduate class (name of the class was "The Problem of Evil"). Quite a different angle to the Holocaust. Afterwards we watched the film. I remember that during this time NPR had a news segment and interview about (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1470638)Furtwängler (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1470638). What synthesis!
Set in Germany in 1946, Taking Sides tells the story of the investigation of Wilhelm Furtwängler, the renowned conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic and Vienna Philharmonic orchestras, by the American occupying army. Major Steve Arnold has been told by his superiors that they want Furtwängler convicted of being a willing participant in the crimes of the Hitler regime, by virtue of his supposed support for and support from the Hitler government. They haven't got the time or resources to go after every ex-Nazi, so they want Furtwängler, as the biggest cultural target they can hit. Arnold does his loud, boorish best to first humiliate and then attack the conductor over the supposed favoritism that he was shown by Hitler, Goering, Himmler, et al. and his conducting of a concert at the 1934 Nuremberg rally and at Hitler's 53rd birthday. Arnold finds, to his eventual distress but not dissuasion, that nothing is as simple as he would like to make it. His civilian secretary, Emmi Straube (Birgit Minichmayr), a concentration camp survivor whose father was part of the German Army plot to kill Hitler, and Lt. David Wills, a German-born Jew representing the War Crimes Tribunal, keep trying to remind Arnold that life and politics in Germany only deteriorated gradually after 1933, and in ways that couldn't always be anticipated by those who were there. Germans who chose not to leave weren't necessarily casting their lot with Hitler, but with protecting what was decent or even great about Germany, including her orchestras and music. Arnold knows nothing about music and even less about Germany and her people, and won't be deterred from his goal. Wills and Straube wish to resign from working with him, until they realize that they're facing the same choice that Furtwängler faced -- to leave a horrendous situation and have no way of affecting its conduct or outcome, or remain and do their best to stand up for decency and truth. In the process of doing that, they find out that Furtwängler is not only a great artist -- which they knew already -- but a great and brave man, who also has his flaws. The latter include an outsized ego that may have caused him to participate a little too willingly at times in the dangerous game he played of maintaining the excellence of Germany's musical institutions while protecting them (and also many musicians) from the worst ravages of the Nazi regime, at the same time also keeping lesser, more compliant figures from usurping his control. (Reviewed by Bruce Eder.)

[Peek a Boo]

Without centuries of Xtian anti-Semitism in Europe - much of it taught from pulpits - I do not believe the Holocaust could have happened.


I disagree.
People have been killing off entire groups of other people far longer than Christianity has been around. i think you basically made my point when you said
Capital punishment, racism, antisemitism, suicide (whether doctor assisted or not), and even some forms of abortion all significantly predate Darwin,

They also predate Christianity ;)


I also believe the basic tenets of Darwinism have contributed to a worldview that devalues human life. If life is not the *supreme* gift of God (or the supreme gift from some source),, then you do get racism and anti-semitism, abortion and eugenics and physician-assisted suicide. And imho, capital punishment.


I am so baffled by this.

Capital punishment, racism, antisemitism, suicide (whether doctor assisted or not), and even some forms of abortion all significantly predate Darwin, and I see no reasonable, intellectually honest connection.

wiki:
Darwinism is a term used for various movements or concepts related to ideas of transmutation of species or evolution, including ideas with no connection to the work of Charles Darwin.[1][2][3] The meaning of Darwinism has changed over time, and varies depending on who is using the term.[4]

The term was coined by Thomas Henry Huxley in April 1860,[5] and was used to describe evolutionary concepts...

and now we come to a statement that can be applied to my statement above as well as yours:
The fact that a TYPE of action [racism/cap punishment] has happened before a particular ideology [darwinism/christianty] is brought to light does not mean that an occurrence [holocaust/semitism] doesn't have some specific reasons pulled from that particular ideology.

In other words, there are plenty of reasonable, intellectually honest connections to be drawn from the effect of new ideas on old habits.
or: people are always ready to use a new excuse for an old crime.

I would say you could easily have people twisting Christianity and people twisting Darwinism.

So while i disagree that without xtianan semitism the holocaust COULD NOT have happened [i believe it absolutely could have happened w/o xtian influence], i do believe that several influences shaped the application of the holocaust: religious fanatics, racists, and Darwinism.
[just to name a few]

and here's another Thank You for the list y'all have offered. we'll be hitting that more in depth w/ my [then] 15yo next year.

[Luann in ID]

I posted the question, then real life swept me away from the boards for a few days, as usual. Now I come back to an incredibly informative and thought provoking thread. Thank you to all of you who posted. You amaze me.

Eliana, I am so grateful for your investment of time and emotion and self. "Thank you" doesn't do it justice, but I don't know what else to say, so -- thank you! We did just watch the Boy in the Striped Pajamas this week. The review you linked is invaluable. I'll read it aloud at lunch today.

My guys who want to do this are on the older side (18yo and a fairly mature 16yo). I think they can, and should, take in most of this. I put Shoah at the top of the Netflix queue and will be adding others.

[Zoraida]

HBO's 10 part miniseries Band of Brothers is about World War II. There is a scene in the movie when the American soldiers liberate a male Jewish camp. I cried during this scene. It was so sad.

Here is the scene from the movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoqX4tsIXdw

Goodness, I wish I didn't do a search for this scene. I got misty eyed watching it.

Blessings

Zoraida

[RebeccaC]

There have been several Holocaust type events in Jewish history, the most recent have been done by folks whose culture was Christian. The writings of Luther helped in Germany but the German government was not Christian although the German culture was.

There are several Feasts that serve to remind us of our deliverance, did we not just finish with Purim and that was not caused by Christians and is not Passover coming up and that also was not caused by Christians, the events that caused Hanukkah were not perpetrated by Christians and of course the ancient captivities whether Babylonian around 597 or Assyrian Captivity in 722 or Roman were not Christian based and predate Christianity or in the case of the 70 ad before Christianity was held on a national level. This does not even begin to touch on what modern and historic Islam are responsible for. Antisemitism is a far broader in scope than being just a Christian based.

I am sure that Eliana and anyone who is Jewish is well aware that a Holocaust can happen without Christian influence. I think and hope they are also aware that they are not the only people group who have faced such hardships. I am part Cherokee and Osage Indian and history tells the story of the trail of tears which members of my family experienced and some were Christian in faith when it happened as was our nation.

When I was a child we had close family friends who survived the Armenian, Assyrians, and Greeks, Genocide or sometimes called the Armenian Holocaust perpetrated by the Ottoman empire which was Islamic. I grew up hearing stories from them about that time. Stories of similar horror to the Nazi Holocaust. One of my brothers was given the name of Andrew which was the name of the survivor. That is how close a family friend these folks were.

I could mention what is happening right now in the Sudan and that of course is Islamic violence towards Christians. This type of horror has been played out by many races, religions, and nations on many races, religions, and nations all through history. The Holocaust that Germans perpetrated was well document by film, photo, and bureaucratic documentation by the Germans and was carried out by a well educated humanistic modern people nation.

The major difference between all the people groups who have faced genocide and the Jews is that the Hebrew people have retained their identity after multiple national and religious genocides over the span of history when other people groups have lost theirs through only one or two such genocides. The million dollar question is why have the Hebrew people survived and sometimes thrived without a homeland for so long. That of course has an answer based in the promises God made to the Patriarchs and Prophets of the Hebrews, or at least that is my world view. There is a price that comes with being the Chosen people of God and I know that some Jews hate the idea that they were chosen but that is what God's word states and history bears witness to.

What makes the genocide carried out by people from a Christian culture and who claim to be Christian against Jews more bitter in flavor is that Christians claim to hold sacred the Hebrew Scriptures. They claim to worship the same God and in God's name have justified the killing of Jews, to me this is particularly heinous, diabolical, based in ignorance, demands a certain twisting debasing profaning of scripture to arrive at, and is illogical. It is almost a type of patricide in my view.

[Spy Car]

Could we give the whose to blame "Darwinists or Christians?" topic a rest on this thread. It's really inappropriate (and veering toward disrespectful) in this context.

Please start another thread if you've got axes to grind, but leave this thread to its purpose.

Thank you,

Bill

[Nan in Mass]

...Elie Wiesel says that anyone who hears a witness to the Shoah becomes a witness too... and as we lose our remaining survivors, that responsibility presses more and more on my heart.

We, too, feel this with the loss of the Hibakusha, the Hiroshima and Nagasaki survivors, having been present at several events where they spoke and working with the Nipponzan Myohoji. Such courage, to relive it over and over in an effort to pass the horror on to others so it won't be repeated, to let themselves be used to further peace efforts, hoping each time that their sacrifice inspires their hearers to make some sort of sacrifice, too. (Totally aside: Isn't it strange how humans sometimes find a large sacrifice easier than daily smaller inconveniences... ) Your phrase "presses on my heart" is so apt.

...but the hardest concept, emotionally, for me as well as for them is that this didn't have to happen. That people's friends, neighbors, coworkers stood aside and let it happen. ...it terrifies dd#2 when she thinks about all the decent people, the well meaning ones, the ones who lived ordinary kind and loving lives who, through their own fears or prejudices or who knows what allowed and/or participated in this. It fuels her passion for speaking out against injustices (or perceived injustices).

I know. So unbelievable. So tragic. And so very, very frightening. I tell my children they must be both good and strong, because one is no good without the other. The monks we work with say that fear and apathy are what hold back the human race.

And Shylock... oh, Nan, I wish you could see it!

I do, too. I think it is tragic that in my copy of Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice is classified as a comedy. You can explain definitions until the cows come home, but I will never understand that.

We have that conversation too - our tradition teaches that to save your life you may - you must- do anything except: murder (doesn't include killing someone who is actively pursuing you to kill you), idolatry, or adultery... though if you are being asked to violate any mitzvah in a time when doing so could lead others away from Torah, then you may not violate even the smallest mitzvah.

UUers are left to work these things out for themselves, heaven help them. They say that it is the most difficult religion because each person has to reinvent the wheel. But I'm babbling... this is very hard...

The thing I most wish were taught involves no horrors... I wish my people were included in secular history as something other than precursors to Xtianity and/or victims. I know it is harder as we have lacked a homeland for so many years, but we have a history... and to have the memory of Jewish Vilna, for example, not even exist for most people... only its destruction and those who destroyed it written up in the history books.

...and we're left with only Sandler's Chanukah Song...

Peace Eliana, inner peace to you and to your family, and to your people, and to the whole world. May all our tears mingle and bring us all peace.

[RebeccaC]

Could we give the whose to blame "Darwinists or Christians?" topic a rest on this thread. It's really inappropriate (and veering toward disrespectful) in this context.

Please start another thread if you've got axes to grind, but leave this thread to its purpose.

Thank you,

Bill

I am not so sure that it is disrespectful Bill. My family was part of the Nazi Holocaust so I have given this much thought. It is part of the fabric of who my family is and what they have experienced. Was your family part of it? I mean other than editing a film about it? I was trained as a scientist, have a Jewish back ground, and am a practicing Christian, spent time in Holland studying the Dutch response as a college student, time in the Ten Boom house in Haarlem, Time in Amsterdam, at Yad Vashem, and Hebrew U. I am not grinding an ax but giving a different some what knowledgeable perspective to lend to some of the off shoots of this conversation that might come up in conversation with a high school student studying this difficult subject.

If we want this to never happen again we need to look at what caused it to happen in the first place and that is not simple nor black and white? The cause should be viewed from as many angles as possible with as little emotion as possible. There should be no area that should be off limits, whether it is Darwin or Christian or political..... Why because I don't want my family or any other family to experience it again. If that is grinding an ax Bill .......

If folks want to honestly teach their high school kids about this then they need to look at it from a whole lot of angles something film often does not bring. My hope this that they will think about the different angles I have presented here when it comes to discussing what their kids see in film, read, and the questions their kids might have from the exposure they get. Isn't that how folks teach high school kids? Right now I am sure your pre-school and kers are not asking hard questions so you are not thinking about this subject like the hsing parent of high school kids would. I might not be expressing my self well but what I am doing is giving different background to a hard subject that I have studied quite a bit and that has touched my family.

[Spy Car]

I am not so sure that it is disrespectful Bill. My family was part of the Nazi Holocaust so I have given this much thought.

If you want to discuss the roots of Nazism, a worthy topic of discussion, then please start a thread on the topic, but I implorer you to leave world-view debates out of his thread.

Bill

[Peek a Boo]

Could we give the whose to blame "Darwinists or Christians?" topic a rest on this thread. It's really inappropriate (and veering toward disrespectful) in this context.

Please start another thread if you've got axes to grind, but leave this thread to its purpose.

with all due respect Bill, it is almost impossible [and absolutely negligent] to leave out the worldview stance. There's nothing inappropriate in discussing the hows and whys something like this [might have] happened. That's not "axes to grind" it's discussing history. This goes far deeper than just Nazism. I'm sure it can become disrespectful, but I know Eliana is NOT a disrespectful person or she wouldn't have brought up her concerns in the first place.

[Spy Car]

..but I know Eliana is NOT a disrespectful person or she wouldn't have brought up her concerns in the first place.

Believe me I know Eliana is NOT a disrespectful person, it's her feelings (among others) I'm asking be considered.

Bill

[RebeccaC]

Often when people think about a right response to the Holocaust then think of the Hiding Place, Cori Ten Boom or Bonhoeffer which is good but a protestant response. I don't think this film has been mentioned, The Ninth Day which is a German film and based on the life story of several preists but mostly on Fr. Jean Bernard and takes place in part at Dachau concentration camp. A good book on the subject is Priestblock 25487: A Memoir of Dachau. The movie is in German I have heard it is as good as Sophie Scholl the Last days, which was very good, but I have yet to see The Ninth Day, I have it coming from Netflix. I think if you want a holistic approach you need to look at the Catholic response that was not Vatican directed. Many priests and Nuns and Catholic laymen gave their lives just like many protestant did. Of course not enough folks took the stand that the few did but......

Other Catholics to look at are Maximilian Kolbe who took the place of a Jewsih man who begged for his life and was deined food and water for at least 10 days before being injected with Carbolic acid. It is said that he spent the days of starvation and thirst singing and praying and encouraging those who were sentence with him. He will be brought up in the course I teach along with Paul and Silas singing in prison.

Titus Brandsma and Edith Stein who was a German-Jewish philosopher (a Jewish convert if memory serves me right,) a Carmelite nun, who died at Auschwitz.

[HollyinNNV]

If you want to discuss the roots of Nazism, a worthy topic of discussion, then please start a thread on the topic, but I implorer you to leave world-view debates out of his thread.

Bill

That's impossible, Bill. If you go to the Holocaust memorial museum in D.C. you will immediately see that world-view is entwined with the topic of the Holocaust. The choices we make in viewing Holocaust movies are certainly made in a more responsible fashion when we consider world-view.

I've seen nothing disrespectful towards Eliana, unless you consider disagreement to be disrespectful.
Holly

[RebeccaC]

Believe me I know Eliana is NOT a disrespectful person, it's her feelings (among others) I'm asking be considered.

Bill


Bill feelings do nothing to stop Holocausts. I have 2 sons and my sister has 3 daughters who are of Jewish blood. I do not want them or my grandchildren to face what my fil or great uncle did. Hitler killed Jewish Christian converts just like he did secular and religious Jews and just like he killed folks who just had 1/8 of Jewish blood in them. I have strong feelings invested in this more than you do and probably different from Eliana but I would wager maybe just as strong.

More to the point I find your post to me to be disrespectful if you want to go the fuzzy wuzzy feelings route. I know you are just trying to be kind and I like that about you but I really do have more invested in this than you do and when Eliana gets done with Shabbos I am sure she will be able to hold her own.

[elizabeth]

"I really do have more invested in this than you do "Rebecca C

Wow, I am for once speechless. It might surprise you to discover that there are many people here who have spent time with , lived with or are related to survivors of genocide. Including the one being discussed. Not everyone is equally comfortable disclosing their history or background -particularly that which might cause others to pity them. It is too close to contempt and derision. This thread and the direction it has taken is all too par for the course. It is probably not a sound idea to assume that any person here has more or less investment in something that should concern all of humanity.

[RebeccaC]

"I really do have more invested in this than you do "Rebecca C

Wow, I am for once speechless. It might surprise you to discover that there are many people here who have spent time with , lived with or are related to survivors of genocide. Including the one being discussed. Not everyone is equally comfortable disclosing their history or background -particularly that which might cause others to pity them. It is too close to contempt and derision. This thread and the direction it has taken is all too par for the course. It is probably not a sound idea to assume that any person here has more or less investment in something that should concern all of humanity.

Elizabeth, you are right that was a bit off handed. Bottom line is tho if one is Jewish or of Jewish extraction this hits closer to home than those who are not. I did not write what I did for pity's sake and to read it as so is to do so in a presumptuous manner. Bill is not a Jew nor is he of Jewish extraction and his comment on being disrespectful because he is worried that Eliana might get her feelings hurt is ........ especially in light of the fact that no one had quoted her or named her is a far stretch.

It is probably not a sound idea to assume that any person here has more or less investment in something that should concern all of humanity.

That is true but I would wager that Bill does not worry that Prejudice against or hatred of Jews - known as antisemitism will raise it head and hurt his children. The only people who worry about that are Jews or folks of Jewish decent. On the other hand maybe he does but I have followed enough of his posts to know that it is a long shot. Should antisemitism concern all of humanity yes. Should racism in all it forms concern all of humanity yes. However no one would argue that what a black experienced during the civil right movement was the same as what a non black experienced. One could say that a Black had a more vested interest in the civil rights movement and its out come than a none black did. It is the same with the Nazi Holocaust. That is not fishing for pity it is just a fact. More Jews died during the Nazi Holocaust than any other group. In this discussion I have more of a vested interest than Bill does. That is just a fact.

[Peek a Boo]

Believe me I know Eliana is NOT a disrespectful person, it's her feelings (among others) I'm asking be considered.

and again: there is nothing DISrespectful being brought up. It was Eliana herself who brought up the issue wrt worldview of participants. You are very sweet, but Eliana has always been very upfront and clear when she is no longer ready to handle the tenor of a discussion.

[elizabeth]

'However no one would argue that what a black experienced during the civil right movement was the same as what a non black experienced. One could say that a Black had a more vested interest in the civil rights movement and its out come than a none black did. It is the same with the Nazi Holocaust" Again nearly speechless... http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/FTrials/price&bowers/price&bowers.htm I think these Jewish men and their families had a vested interest. Your point of view seems to exclude the simple historical fact that if you assisted, supported or protected persecuted people you were next . I simply disagree with everything you have said and so must bow out as I have nothing constructive to contribute. In closing I will again clarify my position that I still believe that all of humanity has a vested interest in rising to the challenge of ignorance, fear and hate wherever and whenever they arise.

[RebeccaC]

'However no one would argue that what a black experienced during the civil right movement was the same as what a non black experienced. One could say that a Black had a more vested interest in the civil rights movement and its out come than a none black did. It is the same with the Nazi Holocaust" Again nearly speechless... http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/FTrials/price&bowers/price&bowers.htm I think these Jewish men and their families had a vested interest. Your point of view seems to exclude the simple historical fact that if you assisted, supported or protected persecuted people you were next . I simply disagree with everything you have said and so must bow out as I have nothing constructive to contribute. In closing I will again clarify my position that I still believe that all of humanity has a vested interest in rising to the challenge of ignorance, fear and hate wherever and whenever they arise.

My dh's step father Moshe marched with Martin Luther King because he identified with King. That does not mean he experienced the march the same way King did. Humanity does have a vested interest but it does not experience any of this the same way nor does it mean that all of humanity pays the same price. Moshe never worried about being lynch if he dated a white woman in the deep south during the 60s but a lot of the black men on that march did. Moshe tho did worry when he moved to Israel that he would die at the hands of a suicide bomber. My point is who has the greater interest those who will die or be harmed in a greater manner than those who will not. The men you posted chose to suffer the black men had no choice.

I am really not sure where you picked this bit up in my writings Your point of view seems to exclude the simple historical fact that if you assisted, supported or protected persecuted people you were next. I think you might be reading this with too much emotion but I could be wrong. I Have been posting about Catholics who assisted and movies and books about such, I posted about Cori Ten Boom, ect...... and the price they paid for assisting the Jews. That does not mean that they experienced the Holocaust in the same way. The Jews had no choice Corie Ten Boom, Sophie Scoll, ect... chose to take chances that might put them in harms way when they could have chosen to stay safe, which is what most Germans, Dutch, Pols, ect chose their personal safety. There is a big difference between the two, having a choice and not having a choice. Who is more heroic those who make the choice to assist that might lead to suffering or those who are forced to suffer for no reason other than their ethnicity or religion?

I just think Bill was out of place telling me I was disrespectful since he does not come from a background that made a choice to suffer real pain and loss with nor is he of Jewish decent. Again I might be presumptuous maybe some one in his family hid Jews and were sent to camps for it, I don't know..... What I do know is he has made a choice to empathize with Eliana and that is a good start however there was no risk in that choice he made.

[Eliana]

Eliana has always been very upfront and clear when she is no longer ready to handle the tenor of a discussion.

I am no longer able to handle the tenor of this discussion. After reading what has been posted since I was last here, I cannot even think of this thread without crying. I will be neither posting to it nor reading it further.

[Peek a Boo]

I am no longer able to handle the tenor of this discussion. After reading what has been posted since I was last here, I cannot even think of this thread without crying. I will be neither posting to it nor reading it further.

Eliana has allowed me to post a PM that shares a clarification that i absolutely agree with:
---------------------------------

Peek,

I really cannot engage in any debate over this issue, but I wanted to give you one small clarification of my very raw post. When I referred to the years of Xtian Antisemitism in Europe and stated that I didn't think the Holocaust could have happened without it, I was thinking of the contrast between Denmark and Poland - both predominantly Xtian, but the latter's history of church-promoted antisemitism meant that the general populace, many of whom particpated in pogroms before & after the Shoah, responded very differently to the Nazi's genocide than the Xtians in Denmark who did not have such a history... and whose response was a model of all that is good an beautiful in Xtianity.

I was not trying to blame Xtianity, just those Xtians who systematically perverted Xtianity. (I don't blame Islam for Palistinian terrorism either, but I do blame those Muslim leaders who have perverted Islam and misused the faith and trust of their followers.)

-----------------------------------

Thanks Eliana :)
:grouphug:

[Spy Car]

I'm very disappointed by the lack of sensitivity shown in this thread.

Bill

[Peek a Boo]

I just think Bill was out of place telling me I was disrespectful since he does not come from a background that made a choice to suffer real pain and loss with nor is he of Jewish decent.

weeelllll... this I have to disagree with. I do agree that people who have participated [whether positively or negatively] to a tragedy certainly do have an invaluable point of view. However, i do not think one's relationship w/ the experience is the determining factor of being able to offer strong arguments for/against certain ideas. Being a victim of a crime does not give one more knowledge about the history of the criminal: it gives you direct experience about being a victim.

I absolutely knew the discussion would be extremely heavy for Eliana, because we've discussed stuff like this before. however, that doesn't mean the topic itself is disrespectful, it only points to the difference in how we process our passions on the issue. I certainly don't need to berate Eliana, and she has removed herself from this thread so that people can discuss it w/o needing to worry about causing her offense.

I am NOT a very empathetic person. But I am a pretty objective person and prefer to see things through a larger lens. especially history and human nature. ;)

[Peek a Boo]

I'm very disappointed by the lack of sensitivity shown in this thread.

Bill

Feel free to bow out.

[Spy Car]

That is true but I would wager that Bill does not worry that Prejudice against or hatred of Jews - known as antisemitism will raise it head and hurt his children. The only people who worry about that are Jews or folks of Jewish decent. On the other hand maybe he does but I have followed enough of his posts to know that it is a long shot.

You have no idea how wrong you are Rebecca. This is sad, hurtful and ugly and I can barely stand reading it.

You don't know me at all. I need to leave this thread too as I'm finding it too poisonous.

Bill

[Catherine]

This is one of my favorite movies. It's a very moving story, very well done, based on a memoir of a real person, Wvadislav (sp?) Sczpilman. I absolutely love this movie.

[Elaine]

Y

You don't know me at all. I need to leave this thread too as I'm finding it too poisonous.

Bill

:001_huh:

[admin]

People,

The topic of this thread was " Best holocaust movies and documentaries for high school?" You have veered WAY off topic.