Suggestions for remediating grammar

[CynthiaOK]

From the previous post on "Who is taking the ACT on Saturday", I indicated that my 8th grade son will be taking it for the first time. And I readily admitted his grammar skills are abysmal. However after having him take the ACT practice test online, I realized that he is even more appalling than I had thought:tongue_smilie:

His reading scores are great, math is where it should be (not a whiz, but he's doing fine) - it's just the use of commas, semicolons, etc. that puts him in a tail spin.

We've used just about everything on the market and nothing seems to stick. He is very right brained and would probably be diagnosed ADD (not ADHD, though). Here's the list of what we've used: Rod & Staff, ABeka (lower levels), Easy Grammar, Jensen's Grammar, Warriner's Grammar, various workbooks (editing practice, etc.). Where do I go from here? He's totally devastated (as am I, but I'm trying to be encouraging).

With the other boys we stopped formal grammar after 8th and I had planned something similar with this one. But obviously that isn't going to happen:glare:

Any advice???

[Stacy in NJ]

My oldest is a 6th grader, so take this for what its worth.

Jensen's Punctuation is really a crash course in sentence structure using commas, semi-colons, and colons. He teaches a kinda code for 6 different sentence strutures then shows how to punctuate them correctly. The second part of the book is a complete but very short explanation of all punctuation. Is your ds's issue with knowing the parts of speech or with punctuation?

[Susan A.]

If you just want grammar, you could do Winston Basic and Winston Advanced in one year and really cover a great deal. There are 85 lessons total between the two books. There is also Winston Word Works for usage.

[Jane in NC]

Cynthia,

If it is any consolation, my now 17 year old son seemed to have had a religious objection to using punctuation for a number years--despite the grammar books, workbooks, etc. He jokingly told me that he was conserving pencil lead (or ink) by excluding punctuation marks. Smart aleck.

Through the years, his standardized test scores were great for reading, vocabulary, math and science, but English usage and spelling were Issues. Imagine my shock when his highest PSAT percentile last fall was in Writing! And he has had his nose in an ACT prep book, reviewing the language portion like there is no tomorrow.

Miracles do happen to these chowder head sons of ours!

Jane

[Kathy in MD]

Look at Analytical Grammar for understanding the why behind punctuation. You can do the book in a year, but punctuation isn't taught until the end, because the authors feel punctuation is only a bunch of stupid rules unless the student understands all the parts of a sentence. Therefore the authors teach parsing and diagramming first.

We haven't gotten to the punctuation part yet, but my non-detail oriented ds is mastering all the details of parsing and diagramming. :D

[CynthiaOK]

Ah, a glimmer of hope :-). I asked my son this evening how he could score so well on the Reading portion (24) and yet so poorly on the English (14). Doesn't he see the punctuation when reading? He said he never pays attention to commas or semi-colons. He doesn't look at the structure of the sentence, but reads it for the content. He is an ace speller, too, but cannot remember any spelling rules. And he *cannot* memorize, but he can give a great synopsis of the material.

BTW, am I the only one with a son who cannot figure out which side of the notebook paper to write on? And who has no sense of margins (that nice line that runs down the page)? I cannot count the times I've told him the holes go on the left and the big empty space goes on the top. To him, it really doesn't matter - just like punctuation.

Well, he is in the throes of puberty right now so I'll cross my fingers and keep reminding myself of your son, Jane. HOpefully I'll have a similar story to tell in a few years :D

[CynthiaOK]

This program did come up on a search for a right-brained grammar curriculum. I'll give it a look. Thanks

[CynthiaOK]

I have Jensen's punctuation (used with my 16 yob), I might just pull it back out and see how he does with it. He did best in grammar with Jensen's, but that's not saying much LOL! He's pretty good on the basic parts of speech, but the punctuation beyond the basic sentence endings, "how to say it better", and finding errors is what gives him problems.

[CynthiaOK]

Hmmm...I used AG with my oldest son - he actually didn't complete the book, but went on to concurrent enrollment instead. I'll pull it back out and see what we can do with it. Thanks.

[Kareni]

Hello Cynthia,

I wonder if the following Yahoo group might have some helpful information in the archives -- homeschoolingcreatively (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/homeschoolingcreatively/).

Here is part of the group's description: "This group was first created in response to those attending my (Cindy G.) right-brained child workshops at the IL In-Home conference. I prefer the term "creative learner" to describe the child for which this group will focus.

This list is a place where we can come to understand and give value to our creative children as we home/unschool with them."

Regards,
Kareni

[Staci in MO]

BTW, am I the only one with a son who cannot figure out which side of the notebook paper to write on? And who has no sense of margins (that nice line that runs down the page)? I cannot count the times I've told him the holes go on the left and the big empty space goes on the top. To him, it really doesn't matter - just like punctuation.

No. This is my twelve-year-old.

With my ds, it's the fact that he's slightly dyslexic. He actually reads very well, but punctuation is lost on him. He's told me the same thing as your ds: he never sees punctuation when he reads. He just kind of infers the meaning from the passage as a whole. For a while I thought that he was just saying that to be hard to get along with, but I'm starting to believe him.

I've pretty much googled everything about right-brained learners and visual-spatial learners, but reading about stealth dyslexia seemed to fit the best.

[Jean in Wisc]

From the previous post on "Who is taking the ACT on Saturday", I indicated that my 8th grade son will be taking it for the first time. And I readily admitted his grammar skills are abysmal. However after having him take the ACT practice test online, I realized that he is even more appalling than I had thought:tongue_smilie:

His reading scores are great, math is where it should be (not a whiz, but he's doing fine) - it's just the use of commas, semicolons, etc. that puts him in a tail spin.

We've used just about everything on the market and nothing seems to stick. He is very right brained and would probably be diagnosed ADD (not ADHD, though). Here's the list of what we've used: Rod & Staff, ABeka (lower levels), Easy Grammar, Jensen's Grammar, Warriner's Grammar, various workbooks (editing practice, etc.). Where do I go from here? He's totally devastated (as am I, but I'm trying to be encouraging).

With the other boys we stopped formal grammar after 8th and I had planned something similar with this one. But obviously that isn't going to happen:glare:

Any advice???

If it is just the commas and semicolons and the use of grammar in his writing, I'd recommend Editor in Chief. It made a HUGE difference with my son's understanding of how to use what he had already studied. It is a no-brainer for mom, too, if you buy the computer program.

Jean

[4wildberrys]

From the previous post on "Who is taking the ACT on Saturday", I indicated that my 8th grade son will be taking it for the first time. And I readily admitted his grammar skills are abysmal. However after having him take the ACT practice test online, I realized that he is even more appalling than I had thought:tongue_smilie:

His reading scores are great, math is where it should be (not a whiz, but he's doing fine) - it's just the use of commas, semicolons, etc. that puts him in a tail spin.

We've used just about everything on the market and nothing seems to stick. He is very right brained and would probably be diagnosed ADD (not ADHD, though). Here's the list of what we've used: Rod & Staff, ABeka (lower levels), Easy Grammar, Jensen's Grammar, Warriner's Grammar, various workbooks (editing practice, etc.). Where do I go from here? He's totally devastated (as am I, but I'm trying to be encouraging).

With the other boys we stopped formal grammar after 8th and I had planned something similar with this one. But obviously that isn't going to happen:glare:

Any advice???

I am not being rude---but WHY are you having an 8th grader take an ACT test???? Isn't this for 11th graders? I guess I must be out of the loop in modern homeschooling, because i have never heard of a kid so young taking this test. :confused:

My recommendation for grammar is Hake grammar---we LOVE it!! My dd 10th grade is doing the 8th grade book and it has done wonders for her grammar comprehension and retention. The constant review and incremental development of the Saxon method are GREAT for grammar. Unless I am missing something and your son is going to college very early, it seems that you have quite a few years to cement those grammar skills before ACT time. :tongue_smilie:

[CynthiaOK]

but WHY are you having an 8th grader take an ACT test???

It's really not that uncommon, but my own reason for doing it is to get a baseline of where my boys are before entering high school. This allows me to plan to address any deficiencies during the early high school years. Using the same test they will see over and over provides me with consistency in score interpretation.

This strategy has worked very well with my 2 older boys. I don't have great expectations for the 8th grade test, nor do I have the kids prep extensively. I did have this particular son take the practice test online (which revealed the problem with grammar) so that he would have a good idea of what to expect. We also test because routine testing builds confidence. I don't want the ACT that counts to be the first test he takes.

Most homeschoolers I know do the ACT test yearly beginning in 9th, and often they take it twice yearly.

I'm actually happy that the test caused me to notice this problem with my son. It confirms somewhat the idea that there may be a learning disability of some type which has motivated me to get him some testing. In fact, I just talked with an educational psychologist a few minutes ago. Stacy in MO suggested "stealth dyslexia" and it certainly looks like he could have this. We'll see...

[4wildberrys]

Most homeschoolers I know do the ACT test yearly beginning in 9th, and often they take it twice yearly.



Wow. We really do live in the boonies! None of the hs'ers in our area that have graduated kids have ever done this---but then again it would probably be a $$$ in our neck of the woods. I see the logic in your reasons, though! ;)

[Carmen_and_Company]

Ah, a glimmer of hope :-). I asked my son this evening how he could score so well on the Reading portion (24) and yet so poorly on the English (14). Doesn't he see the punctuation when reading? He said he never pays attention to commas or semi-colons. He doesn't look at the structure of the sentence, but reads it for the content. He is an ace speller, too, but cannot remember any spelling rules. And he *cannot* memorize, but he can give a great synopsis of the material.

BTW, am I the only one with a son who cannot figure out which side of the notebook paper to write on? And who has no sense of margins (that nice line that runs down the page)? I cannot count the times I've told him the holes go on the left and the big empty space goes on the top. To him, it really doesn't matter - just like punctuation.

Well, he is in the throes of puberty right now so I'll cross my fingers and keep reminding myself of your son, Jane. HOpefully I'll have a similar story to tell in a few years :D


I just posted on the college board what Taz--my writing phoebic college freshman, what worked for him and what he thought would have worked if we did high school all over again.

Analytical grammar followed by Stewart English for grammar
IEW followed by a progym program for composition


FYI--my ds prides himself in mathematics, and science knowledge and application. But if you could have seen the look upon Taz's face when he read his ACT scores; his sub-score for English was higher than his science sub-score--priceless. On the bright side, the English score boosted his confidence in his writing ability. I think some children think so much about getting writing or grammar wrong that they never attempt to apply what they really know.

[Mom2boys]

This program did come up on a search for a right-brained grammar curriculum. I'll give it a look. Thanks

Which program are you referring to?

[CynthiaOK]

The Winston Grammar text. I think people use it because of its hands-on component and the fact that it is a more visual approach to grammar - great for right-brained kids. Another one that I've seen mentioned for right-brainers is Jensen's grammar. And I have to say that we did have the greatest success when we used Jensen's.

Right now, though, I think my son's problem isn't so much a lack of basic grammar (he can name the parts of speech as well as some basic punctuation principles) as an ability to transfer that to the written paper. It is a problem with recognizing an error. Although he's a fantastic speller, he doesn't always catch spelling errors on editing pages.

I printed off some of the Winston Grammar placement test so I will have another indication of where the problems are.