Life of Fred or Jacobs Math?

[Martha]

Help! Saxon isn't working for us. They know their facts and are doing the work, but they don't seem to understand how to use the math outside the text and are bored to tears.

I've heard good things about these two programs? Which one, if I get them, should I start with?

I'm looking at these for my advanced going into 7th grader and my at pace with a little bit of hard work going into 8th grader.:)

[EKS]

We have both. Jacobs is the primary program. Life of Fred is bedtime reading.

[Karenciavo]

We have both. Jacobs is the primary program. Life of Fred is bedtime reading.

I agree with Kai. I'm using Life of Fred as a fun program for my ds12, but his primary Algebra I program will be Chalkdust in Sept.

[Martha]

what do you like about Jacobs? is it enough or do you feel you need to suppliment with Life of Fred?

I'm avoiding dvd/computer learning programs. they just don't work for us.

[hsm]

you are speaking of algebra, not geometry, correct???? would you be willing to do a compare/contrast?

[GreenKitty]

If you are for sure you are going with one of those two, then I would Most Definitely go with Jacobs.

[Martha]

I'm thinking this is the standard order? PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong!

7th Jacobs Human Endeavor (I guess one could skip this and go straight to algebra I?)
8th Jacobs Elementary algebra (same as algebra I)
9th Jacobs Geometry
10th Foerster Algebra II
11th Foerster pre cal w/ trig OR trig
12th Foerster calculus

Basic concensus is that Life of Fred is nice, but not a strong stand alone material?

Can anyone note any negatives of Jacobs for me? We are really hating Saxon. The kids do and can do the work, but they hate every minute of it and it's not translating into life use for them. I feel if I don't switch soon, they will quickly develop a life-long dislike for math and by default science.

[Lori D.]

No problems in using Jacobs Algebra last year. We really enjoyed the real life examples at the beginning of each chapter -- made algebra more applicable to real life. Don't feel you have to do every problem; each chapter is laid out in the same format:

set 1 = review problems of past concepts
set 2 = problems based specifically on that lesson, building incrementally in difficulty
set 3 = identical to set 2, just with different numbers (used for additional practice, if needed)
set 4 = challenger problem

How we used Jacobs:
I circled problems out of set 1 to do (some people just do set 1 orally as review). Then I had him do *either* set 2 *or* set 3 -- I let him pick. I don't remember him ever needing to also do the other one for extra practice. I counted set 4 as bonus points if he decided to attempt it. Sometimes we did set 4 together. The answers to set 2 are in the back of the student textbook; the answers to set 1, 3, and 4 are in the teacher book. While there are only answers, no solutions, the teacher book is worth getting because that has additional teaching notes and more examples from life.

We had no problems doing Jacobs here. Very gentle and incremental, and his examples were fun. My math struggler will do Math-U-See algebra next year, but we'll be supplementing with the Jacobs. Hope something here helps! Warm regards, Lori D.

[Karenciavo]

what do you like about Jacobs? is it enough or do you feel you need to suppliment with Life of Fred?

I'm avoiding dvd/computer learning programs. they just don't work for us.


My ds14 has yet to watch the DVD. It is not necessary, but if he gets stuck I'm glad we have it. We tried Jacob's, it was interesting and engaging, but when ds got stuck I would have liked a solutions manual instead of just an answer key.

[AngieW in Texas]

I do about the same as Lori. I assign set 1 and set 3. I work through an example of each set 2 problem with my dd so that she knows what the problems are asking for (this is my Aspie and she does NOT understand anything that isn't explicit). When I did it with my oldest, I assigned sets 1 and 3, but didn't need to work through set 2 problems as examples. I ended up having her work through the set 2 problems about 4 times the entire year when she didn't get it the first time through.

There are usually just 3 set 1 problems, so I go ahead and assign all of them.

[Basketmaker Amy]

I agree with Lori D. We are using it the same way.

My 7th grader ds is using Jacob's Algebra this year and really enjoying it. (He hated Saxon last year.) My 9th grader is using Jacob's Geometry...he's not "enjoying" it, but it is a great text.

The examples are easy to understand and fun.

[Martha]

I would have liked a solutions manual instead of just an answer key.

ahhh. that is a fine point to ponder.

has anyone else had a problem with this?

i'll admit to never having been a math wiz to begin with and to having nearly completely forgot what I did learn. I'm learning right along with the kids!

[MicheleinMN]

Dd and I prefer Foerster's Algebra I. Sorry to throw another choice into the mix.
I like the entire set up of the Foerster's Alg. I book. It also has a solutions manual available. It is more expensive (than Saxon or Jacobs) unless you can find a used set. (even then, I think it will be more than the others)

You can get it new through Pearsons, but you have to fill out a form stating you are a homeschooling parent.

HTH,
Michele

[Laura in VA]

I'm almost certain that Human Endeavor is not intended to be used before Elementary Algebra, so you would just go straight into Elementary Algebra. It's a book that some use in high school if the student is not going to be doing the traditional pre-calculus, etc. track.

[AnneD]

Foerster's Alg. I book. It also has a solutions manual available.


Where can I find the solutions manual?
Is there any advantage to using the new edition from Pearson as opposed to an older used edition?
Thanks ~ Anne

[Martha]

okay, open to options...
and if Jacobs recommends foersters that's a logical question...
i like solution manuals too, but it's not a must
or at lest that's what I'm saying before starting the text:p

so can anyone give me some links to foerster?

[danielle]

Sorry to disagree but I think that Jacobs is eesy-peesy (dd's term) compared to Life of Fred. We've used Jacobs, ALEKS and now LOF, and LOF covers more, with more understanding. Jacobs is good, but tends to give you 100 problems of exactly the same type, while LOF makes you do problems that require you to know the material and apply it in a problem solving way. If you compare what each covers, you'll see more in LOF (check the table of contents on line).
I thought LOF would be nice bedtime reading also, and it is, but I bet you're skipping the problems. Try to do them (the 7 or 8 look minimal at first) and you'll find a good brain workout for an hour or two. This is anything BUT a light weight program.

There are lots of programs that seem light weight unless you do the whole thing (Rosetta Stone and French in Action come to mind). But doing all the problems in LOF is no easy task. However, it will be thorough.
Danielle

[cajun.classical]

Thanks for that, Danielle. I'm seriously looking at LOF for 7th grade math. I'm planning on purchasing a copy soon so that my brother the math professor can take a look at it. If he says it covers what it needs to cover then that's fine with me.

I was wondering though if you've ever encountered a need for more problems or for a different perspective. My son will have gone through Rightstart through Geometry and then through LOF (the plan anyway). I'm wondering if he will have culture shock the first time he hits a typical math textbook. Do you have any thoughts on this? Am I concerned for nothing? I was considering getting a standard Algebra text (like a used Foerster) for extra problems and so that he could see a typical textbook layout.

[Martha]

You know, I've heard that many do that. which I guess works for them, but we never skip problems. I figure it either needs to be really cemented in if they already know it or it isn't and they need to get to know it.

I rarely allow them to skip problem in math. Other subject maybe, but never math.:)

[Martha]

I'm almost certain that Human Endeavor is not intended to be used before Elementary Algebra, so you would just go straight into Elementary Algebra. It's a book that some use in high school if the student is not going to be doing the traditional pre-calculus, etc. track.

hmm, so if one is moving right along then they don't need Human Endeavor at all? I should just skip it entirely?

[Kathie in VA]

Dd and I prefer Foerster's Algebra I. Sorry to throw another choice into the mix.
I like the entire set up of the Foerster's Alg. I book. Michele

Can you explain how the setup is different?

I find this discussion interesting as these are three of the math texts that I'm considering. (Other one is Lial's since we are using Lial's BCM). I'm very interested in understanding any and all differences between these texts.

tia

[danielle]

Cajun Classical,
Dd just had to take the EXPLORE in order to be allowed to take Orchestra and Debate (!?) at the local high school and scored a 23 on the math section, so I guess she made the transition. If you work out the problems in LOF, you definitely get plenty mathy looking answers! We use the Creative Problem Solving book and plan to go on to Art of Problem Solving from Math Counts for a different exposure--usually once a week on Fridays. I don't think this is so much supplemental--LOF is complete, imho--as extras to encourage looking at stuff from different angles.
I ask myself what's important in math. For me the answer is, can the child solve problems in real life (easiest level), can she solve problems required in her field (harder level--I want all fields to be open to her at this stage), and can she score very highly on tests, because we homeschoolers are judged by colleges even more on those than most kids. I have a kid who's really good at math, but no genius. We will complete LOF Algebra I this year (8th grade). In high school, we plan to go thru Algebra II, Geometry, Trig, Calculus and Statistics. Stan Schmidt, LOF author, says each of those are one year courses, so I'm not sure how we'll do it all--maybe try to squish some (most are 100 lessons or so).
FWIW, I did have someone evaluate the Statistics book. We have a friend who's a cardiologist, now very expensive consultant to medical businesses. His daughter won the Westinghouse Sci competition. He's an absolute mathbrain. He was very impressed with the Stat book, thought it was very innovative, and very HARD. He also felt it covered more Stat than most college courses, and needed to be worked thru very slowly. He basically said it sucks you in by the cuteness, but packs a punch.
There are lots of good math programs out there. Many children can do very well with a variety of programs. Homeschooling gives us the freedom to search for the best for our children. For most program decisions, after 6 years of doing this, I say try it(any program) and toss it if it doesn't work. We don't need to report to a textbook committee!
Danielle
Danielle

[Laura in VA]

hmm, so if one is moving right along then they don't need Human Endeavor at all? I should just skip it entirely?

The Human Endeavor book is meant to be used after Algebra/Geometry. So, if you want to complete Pre-Calc, etc., you would not use this text.

[cajun.classical]

Cajun Classical,
Dd just had to take the EXPLORE in order to be allowed to take Orchestra and Debate (!?) at the local high school and scored a 23 on the math section, so I guess she made the transition. If you work out the problems in LOF, you definitely get plenty mathy looking answers! We use the Creative Problem Solving book and plan to go on to Art of Problem Solving from Math Counts for a different exposure--usually once a week on Fridays. I don't think this is so much supplemental--LOF is complete, imho--as extras to encourage looking at stuff from different angles.
I ask myself what's important in math. For me the answer is, can the child solve problems in real life (easiest level), can she solve problems required in her field (harder level--I want all fields to be open to her at this stage), and can she score very highly on tests, because we homeschoolers are judged by colleges even more on those than most kids. I have a kid who's really good at math, but no genius. We will complete LOF Algebra I this year (8th grade). In high school, we plan to go thru Algebra II, Geometry, Trig, Calculus and Statistics. Stan Schmidt, LOF author, says each of those are one year courses, so I'm not sure how we'll do it all--maybe try to squish some (most are 100 lessons or so).
FWIW, I did have someone evaluate the Statistics book. We have a friend who's a cardiologist, now very expensive consultant to medical businesses. His daughter won the Westinghouse Sci competition. He's an absolute mathbrain. He was very impressed with the Stat book, thought it was very innovative, and very HARD. He also felt it covered more Stat than most college courses, and needed to be worked thru very slowly. He basically said it sucks you in by the cuteness, but packs a punch.
There are lots of good math programs out there. Many children can do very well with a variety of programs. Homeschooling gives us the freedom to search for the best for our children. For most program decisions, after 6 years of doing this, I say try it(any program) and toss it if it doesn't work. We don't need to report to a textbook committee!
Danielle
Danielle

Thanks Danielle,

That helps a lot. I think I'll go ahead with my plan and get the books evaluated by my brother. He thinks the concept is brilliant and is excited to get his hands on a copy. It's really good to know that students aren't having any difficulty transitioning to a more standard approach. My gut told me this would be the case, but thanks for confirming that.

[MicheleinMN]

How is Foerster's different...

It has example problems that aren't *easy* versions of what the student is supposed to do.

The TE has more example problems and explains how to break-down the lesson into daily assignments.

It has a lot of word problems, so your student has to apply what he/she has learned.

It has a complete solutions manual for those times when you/your student *just don't get it.*

My dd and I are both fairly mathematically minded. We enjoy algebra. Foerster's did not work as well for my non-mathematically minded son, but I didn't find that Jacobs' Algebra was any better for him, and Jacobs' didn't appeal to me or my dd.

I wish I could explain it better. It really was just a feeling of *knowing* it was the right book for us. The page layout, the concept presentation, even the font size was right for us.

HTH,
Michele

[Martha]

I really appreciate all the response I'm getting here gals! I'm sure you understand this is a huge expense, so I'm trying hard to avoid getting something we hate and not having the funds to just drop it for something else or, worse, sufferring through for an entire year until near the end we hate to even pick the book up, kwim?

Can anyone compare the teachers guides between Jacobs and LofF?
I think that is going to be very important to me. Like I said, I'm learning right along with them and I normally do okay, but I like the comfort of backup if I need it.

What is Lials? I've seen it referenced several times, but never a link to it??

[Sue in St Pete]

I will jump in here with my very uneducated opinion.

So far, I have previewed the following from my library or ILL:
Lial's Algebra
Jacob's Algebra
Foerster's Algebra (TM)
Dolciani's Algebra (TM)

I also bought LOF Algebra. I plan to supplement MUS Algebra with it. Ds is in 6th grade. I plan to do MUS Algebra & LOF Algebra next year. We may not finish both. 8th grade, we'll do one of the above. I'm just a math nut.

Honestly, I've got Jacob's and Dolciani's sitting on my desk right now. I haven't really given them my complete attention yet. Lial's looked like it was solid. It reminded me of what I might have used in high school. But, it is 1/2 as thick as the rest, therefore not as thorough. I really liked everything about Foerster's. I liked that the TM told you which problems to assign for review and for practice and for extra practice. I liked that they had regular chapters that were completely word problems. The depth is outstanding. Although I am sure that I am capable of doing without a solutions manual, my time is precious, so the TM (which includes all the solutions) is great.

Anyway, that's my 2c. If you haven't thought of it yet, try getting these through your library system so that you can see for yourself.

Good luck!

[Kimber]

Since you've looked at all of these books, can you elaborate on why you picked Life of Fred. This is very interesting. I'm very interested. I'm thinking of getting Life of Fred for my daughter.

Thanks,

Kimberly

[Sue in St Pete]

We've used MUS from K and are now in Pre-Algebra. For the last 3 years, we've supplemented with Singapore's CWP. I decided that I wanted to continue on with MUS Algebra, then follow it with another algebra program that was more rigorous. Since we are doing the last CWP book, I wanted to find another supplement for next year. LOF seemed off-beat. MUS, while I love it, can be a bit same-old, same-old. I think LOF will spice it up a bit. Plus, it's cheap. Plus, it gets talked about now and then, and I was just plain curious.

Don't mind me. I have a degree in math.

[Heather in NC]

We've used MUS from K and are now in Pre-Algebra. For the last 3 years, we've supplemented with Singapore's CWP. I decided that I wanted to continue on with MUS Algebra, then follow it with another algebra program that was more rigorous. Since we are doing the last CWP book, I wanted to find another supplement for next year. LOF seemed off-beat. MUS, while I love it, can be a bit same-old, same-old. I think LOF will spice it up a bit. Plus, it's cheap. Plus, it gets talked about now and then, and I was just plain curious.

Don't mind me. I have a degree in math.

Although we are just finishing up MUS Gamma (and we supplement with CWP, too), my intention is to continue on with MUS and add in LOF. So I am glad to hear that you are following this route and I will be watching closely to hear the results! :D

[danielle]

Re the teachers manual for LOF--there isn't any. For Algebra I he gives the answers in the book for the first problem sets, half the answers for the next problem sets, and none for the final. Then you refer to the homeschool companion for the other half, and the final set answers. For books in the series that don't have a homeschool companions, there is an answer key. Mr. Schmidt does not believe the parent should be "helping" the kid--he told me his books are designed not only to teach math, but also to teach the child to teach him/herself. In fact, he says that if the child has been making a good try, gone back over the chapter and re read, and still can't understand the answer, they should email him and he will explain. DD has done this once so far, and he responded in one day with a helpful suggestion (not a complete solution) that caused dd to understand quite well.

It hasn't been much work at all for me. In fact, when I started working out some problems with her, I quickly realized that she was relying on me for problem solving (selecting the right algorithm, etc.) and not learning anything. In our experience, it truly is a self teacher, but the child has to be willing to work at it--go back over the material to see how the relevant problems were solved, etc.
Danielle

[Martha]

I'm awaiting a call from the downtown library to see if they have any of these books for me to look at.

The #1 reason I'm interested in jacobs or LofF is that I want them to develop their reasoning skills. Saxon is letting them learn the forumula (which certainly has it's purpose), but outside of the book - there's nothing carrying into life useage. So if they can do the book without my having a solutions manual - then that's great by me.

The #2 reason is that these are the few programs out there that are not DVD/computer based, which just absolutely does not work for us. (and rules out TT, MUS, SaxonDive, Aleks...)

So Jacobs TM has solutions, but there's no support.
LofF is just an answer key, but he is there for "support".

May I just add my deepest gratitude for this discussion? I've posted the same question to 4 boards and this is the only one I've really received any feedback on at all. Thank you!

Is there anything other than answers/solutions in the Home companion or teacher manuals? Sometimes the meat of the program isn't in the text, it's int eh teacher guide, kwim?

[danielle]

The Home Companion has extra problems and breaks the assignments down into 1 day chunks. I appreciate having a reality check on what is "reasonable" to do for one day's assignments. I wish he had a home companion for all the books, but I guess we will figure it out in the future.
Danielle

[Martha]

I'm going to buy Life of Fred!:)

[Ruth in NC]

Son, 17, did Jacob's and then ALEKS, for geometry, and always struggled with the proofs.

Daughter, 15, who had done LoF Algebra and ALEKS, chose LoF geometry to start. The 1st day, she was writing a proof, in a gentle, fill-in-the-blank way. She gets it! Now 2 weeks later, she is rolling along with this stuff.

Son and daughter are 2 very different people and different learners but I still think it is notable how much better she understands geometry than he ever did.

I love Fred!!

[cajun.classical]

Son, 17, did Jacob's and then ALEKS, for geometry, and always struggled with the proofs.

Daughter, 15, who had done LoF Algebra and ALEKS, chose LoF geometry to start. The 1st day, she was writing a proof, in a gentle, fill-in-the-blank way. She gets it! Now 2 weeks later, she is rolling along with this stuff.

Son and daughter are 2 very different people and different learners but I still think it is notable how much better she understands geometry than he ever did.

I love Fred!!

Thanks for posting. That's good to hear. I'm planning on giving LOF a try.

[Martha]

wow.
I ordered it online on a Thursday and it arrived on my doorstep the very next Saturday morning!

firstly, I'm laughing my bum off. it's hilarious reading without being insipid reading, kwim?

now I know that doesn't mean my kid will get the math better, but it sure doesn't hurt either.

the only thing I'm finding a bit of hurdle in my review of it is the "Your Turn to Play" section of problems has the answers right underneath them!? How in the world are they expected to work on the problem whenteh answer is literally right in front of their face? :confused: Now, I know many kids won't have that problem. they read and only see the sentence they are on, but *I* am not like that. I take the entire page in as I go along if that makes any sense. *I* would not be cheating. *I* would just be aware without effort, kwim? That feature just kind of threw me. However, there is the bridge sections and if they have been just jotting the anweer down then they'll be tripped up later.

So far, I don't regret buying them and think they are going to be great. vs the instant dread I felt upon opening Saxon last year.

I can say he explains things very simply without dumbing it down and both of my boys really want to read these books. David says he can't wait to get hsi hands on that fractions book!:)

[Brindee]

I love this thread! I'm thinking of getting LOF for my ds14 for Geometry next year.

Martha (or anyone), How is your experience with LOF now?

[Martha]

I love this thread! I'm thinking of getting LOF for my ds14 for Geometry next year.

Martha (or anyone), How is your experience with LOF now?

well we don't plan on "officially" starting them until July.
but for now, my boys are really excited and are enjoying reading them when I'm not looking.

when we officially start, I'll have a better idea of how it's working for us.
workign being defined as:
they don't cry over doing math
preferrable they rekindle their enjoyment of the subject
they understand the concepts
they can apply the concepts off the math page (iow word problems)

if someone will remind me sometime in september or October I should be able to give a decent review of at least the first book.

[Wesreinay]

Martha,
It's been a few years since your post. I was wondering if you have any updates on LoF? My girls just finished 7th, 4th, and preK in ps and I am keeping them home next year. My oldest hates and struggles with math. (A whole different rant on no child left behind and the lack of funding -says their school- for math help.) I was considering this for her. Did you find it to be a complete?
Thank you!
Reading through this forum had me feeling a little less overwhelmed and more confident than I have in 3 weeks!!!

[NittanyJen]

:iagree:Sorry to disagree but I think that Jacobs is eesy-peesy (dd's term) compared to Life of Fred. We've used Jacobs, ALEKS and now LOF, and LOF covers more, with more understanding. Jacobs is good, but tends to give you 100 problems of exactly the same type, while LOF makes you do problems that require you to know the material and apply it in a problem solving way. If you compare what each covers, you'll see more in LOF (check the table of contents on line).
I thought LOF would be nice bedtime reading also, and it is, but I bet you're skipping the problems. Try to do them (the 7 or 8 look minimal at first) and you'll find a good brain workout for an hour or two. This is anything BUT a light weight program.

There are lots of programs that seem light weight unless you do the whole thing (Rosetta Stone and French in Action come to mind). But doing all the problems in LOF is no easy task. However, it will be thorough.
Danielle

:iagree: When done correctly and with diligence, Life of Fred is a thorough program that focuses on depth and application outside of just how to use it in the math book. It's a great program that will leave your DC well set up in math.

[NittanyJen]

Thanks for that, Danielle. I'm seriously looking at LOF for 7th grade math. I'm planning on purchasing a copy soon so that my brother the math professor can take a look at it. If he says it covers what it needs to cover then that's fine with me.

I was wondering though if you've ever encountered a need for more problems or for a different perspective. My son will have gone through Rightstart through Geometry and then through LOF (the plan anyway). I'm wondering if he will have culture shock the first time he hits a typical math textbook. Do you have any thoughts on this? Am I concerned for nothing? I was considering getting a standard Algebra text (like a used Foerster) for extra problems and so that he could see a typical textbook layout.

Starting with Algebra, check out LoF's home companion books for additional problems. Unless your child really equires a drill & kill approach (and not very many do; it's a "school" method that we all just got used to) it should be plenty. For more drill if needed, try Khan Academy.

Jen

[Sue in St Pete]

I was wondering if you have any updates on LoF? .. Did you find it to be a complete?
We used LoF Algebra along with MUS Algebra in 7th grade. IMO, LoF for Algebra (and up) is complete and challenging when you use the Home Companion. Unfortunately, it did not fit ds's learning style well. He likes clear and concise. LoF is verbose.

Some things that helped me choose math program over the years have been Cathy Duffy's books because she helps you determine your child's learning style, then tells which programs are better for which learners. For Algebra and up, the library and inter-library loan have been helpful in being able to see up close and personal the different options.

Good luck!

[gswhitfield21]

We couldn't do Saxon without the Dive CD's. I tried to read through the text, but the way the CDROM teaches it is much better for us. My son hates the CD, so I have to watch it and make notes to teach him. This might last through Algebra II...

[brennab]

I really dig Life of Fred, but with a caveat. My older son is in 6th grade and did the Pre-Algebra 1 with Biology this year. He did...okay. I think he didn't quite grasp some key concepts that would make algebra easier for him. I decided to have him work on Pre-Algebra 2 with Economics before moving on; that way, he could repeat the work without feeling like he was repeating the work. Next year I have an algebra workbook to go along with the LoF Beginning Algebra for some extra practice.