"Quiverfull" questions... [Archive] - The Well-Trained Mind Forums (aka Hive Mind)

Pencil Pusher

02-24-2008, 04:05 PM

Dh & I are expecting #4 this summer. Before getting married, I told dh I wanted 4-6 dc; after the 1st 2, I was happy, but he wanted as many as poss, but AT LEAST 2 more. LOL

After going to a home church for a while w/ a couple of families w/ 6 sweet children apiece, we agreed that we didn't want more than 5. We just aren't that organized, & we don't want to drive that big of a car.

After #3, we both knew we wanted 1 more for sure...beyond that was up for grabs. But we'd gotten to the pt that we could really feel the strain physically & emotionally. We agreed that we didn't want to have more than we could give appropriate attention & love to.

So we're pg w/ #4 MUCH sooner than we were planning, finances are pretty crazy (although that should be temporary), & we know we're about to be super exhausted. We've started talking about bc in a new way, kwim?

Dh for the 1st time is willing to even talk about a V, & we've started looking at all kinds of bc, whereas, previously, there was very little we were comfortable with. We used NFP/barrier w/out... unexpected results? Until now. Otoh, until now, we weren't too concerned w/ 1 more.

Ok, that's a lot of info to say this: we've never been certain about the moral implications of bc. It's so controversial, it's hard to get people to talk about it honestly, it seems. But I've begun to hear voices as I go to sleep at night, asking things like, "Did you love me less because I wasn't firstborn?"

Now, I tend toward crazy, so I'm not just buying this. But I have always believed that souls are created by God, not by parents. They exist from a time before conception--otherwise, how could He have known us & died for us on the cross, before we had even sinned?

This view has been challenged, though, over the past few years as I grapple w/ what I believe about bc. If souls really pre-exist & are...I don't know, placed in families by God's design, then any children we choose not to have...well, it gets to be like abortion.

That's a strong way of putting it. Please don't get offended. This is not what I believe, just...I'm beginning to wonder about it. IF that were the right way to look at it (you know, with wide, horrified eyes at the thought of giving up control & potentially having THAT many children), that makes the birth rate significantly different than what God might have planned. I forget the statistics on abortion, but if we did combine those #s w/ the effects of bc...wow. That's all.

So I was talking to a friend the other night on the phone, & she mentioned the "quiverfull" pov. I had thought that this was a specific #, but she says it's just people who don't use any sort of bc, incl organized abstinence, & leave the # of children they're going to have entirely to the Lord. I'd rather not know there are people who think this way, because it gives more validity to the direction I feel like I might be being led. Yikes!

When it gets down to it, the truth is, I don't trust God to give me the right # of children. I think I know better than He does. Or if He does know how many, He certainly wouldn't space them appropriately. Or He doesn't know the effects it would have on my body. Or my mind, LOL!:eek:

But, really, aren't those all ways of saying that I don't believe God is who He says he is. No, honestly, when I think about these things, I find myself questioning God's existence at all. Not that I don't believe, exactly, but IF I do, then this shouldn't really be an issue. But it is, & when it comes to this issue, I find that I think of God as something obscure & distant &...well, not real.

And that's scary, not because I'm really questioning my faith, but because it leads me to one conclusion. And that might be a LOT of kids. After all, I'm only 28!!! (Couldn't He wait to discuss this with me when I'm 38? I'd have much more faith THEN, I'm sure!)

So I'd like your thoughts, esp from people on the other side of this issue. Gently, if possible. Not that I deserve it, because I have not always been gentle w/ this perspective. I guess it serves me right to even have to think about it. :o

momofkhm

02-24-2008, 04:20 PM

Just that I was going to post something similar, soonish.

I think I'm ready to be there - quiverfull I mean. But DH isn't. To truly be quiverfull, he'd have to go get a reversal surgery and I just won't bring that up with him. I'll leave that to the Lord to convict his heart. I'm chicken, I know!

My issues are more how do quiverfull families deal with people. I've read the snarky and not so snarky responses. (though I only remember the snarky ones!) I've only recently found out that someone on the children's team at church is vocally against many children. (In her words, her SIL is trying to repopulate the earth all by herself.) Then I also found out how my mother feels about it this weekend. (I mentioned seeing 2 families eating out, one with 10, the other with 8. One family had one on the way. "At that point I'd ask if they knew what caused children" not in a nod-nod, elbow-elbow sort of way. In a 'what do you think you are doing!?' kind of way.)

Now what I read in your note is more a trust issue. We all have those from time to time. My issue is obedience. I trust Him, I'm just not obedient b/c I don't want to do what he tells me to do. (I do have trust issues as well, just obedience is bigger.) All I can really say to you is pray. I know you just came off a board break for intense prayer, but that's the solution. Pray and talk to your husband. Me, I'm stuck on the prayer. :o

Scarlett

02-24-2008, 04:21 PM

Pencil Pusher

02-24-2008, 04:33 PM

Did you ever think about the fact that Noah's sons didn't have children during the 40 years the ark was being built?

Ok, that was a little side point, to say that there have been times God's servants prevented pregnancy.

You sound very mixed up and confused about this and I feel really sorry for you! You are pregnant, have 3 young children and I"m sure you are exhausted already.

All I can say to you is my belief. Life begins at conception. Preventing conception is NOT anywhere near the same thing as aborting a pregancy. I absolutely do not believe, not do I find scripture to support, the idea that we were spirits before conception. I take my reproductive abilities very very seriously, as I believe they are God given. I personally will not take permanant measures to prevent pregnancy. (Probably...I am sure there could be a reason such as if I would die in pregnancy/childbirth).

I do not believe scripture supports the idea that ALL bc is sinful. And because of that I can only say to you as I would a friend over coffee....You seem distressed to think of having another baby right now. So prevent that. But how you feel today is not how you might feel in 5 years and you might very well regret taking permanant measures to have no more children.

(((Aubrey)))

From Scarlett who so wishes she could have had 4.

1. Maybe this is just for me, not actually the RIGHT way, kwim? I don't want anyone to feel like I'm judging people who have a different # of dc than me!

2. Current bc: I think the pg has that covered, LOL!

3. Distressed to have another? That's more complicated. If it's God's will, I've seen enough of that to know that that is good. I also know that I'm not... responsible? enough to handle it right now. But then I look at what kind of person I was when I had #1. I've grown so much! If I grow that much more in the same space of time...maybe I could handle it?

I guess I'm more talking out loud for direction. Your pov sounds EXACTLY like mine has been up to now. It's just that...I'm finding mine challenged. Is it just because it IS a challenging issue? Or is it the Lord, leading me to something that, in myself, I could not do? (Like marrying my dh w/out dating him! Or selling our house & coming to seminary w/ 3 dc & no job lined up. Etc.)

Kim in Appalachia

02-24-2008, 04:53 PM

Scarlett, that was a great post,

Aubrey,

I agree with Scarlett, you seem distressed. There is no verse in scripture against bc. If you and your dh need a rest having little ones, you should take one. I also don't think it is wise to do anything permanent, because you may feel very differently in just 1 year.

And I would ask if you are feeling challenged or being led, not by the Lord, but by others. I am sympathetic to those who shun bc and have as many children as the Lord provides, but the issue should always be brought back to scripture.

Enjoy your pregnancy and newest blessing, focus on your dc and instructing them.

I find when I spend time thinking about such controversial things, I spend less time tending my own garden.

HTH,

Kim

Sue G in PA

02-24-2008, 04:53 PM

We are pg w/ #7...certainly more than we anticipated having and definitely more than any family members expected us to have! My dh will laugh and tell you he was done with 2 (we had our girl and our boy!). Well, we were never fans of bc and so you guess what happened...3, 4, 5, 6 and now 7! :D Dh was scheduled to have a V when we got pg with #6 (our 2nd girl and the light of our life). We had cancelled one appt., the dr. had to postpone another and appt. #3 was scheduled for dh's Christmas break...but we found about #6 2 weeks before. He cancelled. After dd2 was born, he did a complete 180...he said he didn't want the V (I had already said I didn't want him to) and wanted as many kids as God would give us. WOW! So here we are. Some thoughts:

Yes, children are a blessing and a gift of God. BUT, I don't believe God frowns upon those who choose to limit their family size. We live in a different world than that of Adam and Eve, etc.! God knows that! Financies, health issues, etc. can mandate limiting family size. We've been blessed w/ healthy/easy pregnancies and children, a supportive extended family (albeit a bit shocked and dazed by the sheer number!), a home, a small, but sufficient income, etc. I want as many children as God will give us (as I'm 35, I'm thinking my time is coming to and end very soon and it does make me sad!). I feel completely incapable of handling them most days. I didn't come from a large family so have no skills or knowledge to build upon. I'm winging it with God's help! I figure He wouldn't have given me these beautiful children (as rotten as they can be sometimes:D) if He hadn't called me to parent them, KWIM? BUT, my very honest Christian friends also tell me that God gives us wisdom! I haven't figured out how to jive the 2 schools of though, yet.

I will tell you that many friends of mine whose dh's had V's regret the decision. Years later situations change and they want another child. That's the key...situations change in the blink of an eye and we don't even know we'll make it to another day before the rapture! God will provide...trust Him to let you know what to do. Oh, one other thought that I tell people...God can open and close the womb just as He's done in the past for Sarah and other women of Bible times. I have friends who desperately want more babies and can't have them. OR friends who don't use bc and simply don't get pg!

Scarlett

02-24-2008, 04:55 PM

And I would ask if you are feeling challenged or being led, not by the Lord, but by others. I am sympathetic to those who shun bc and have as many children as the Lord provides, but the issue should always be brought back to scripture.

I had this exact same thought.

JuJuBee

02-24-2008, 04:57 PM

how could He have known us & died for us on the cross, before we had even sinned?

If I understand the faith correctly, the reason God knows us before we were born is not because we had some pre-existence, but because God exists outside of time. So he knows me, this moment, as an old woman, because he is there on the timeline with me as an old woman (presuming I live that long, of course). He knows me as a baby, as if I were a baby right now. He is at all points on the timeline. He encompasses and surpasses the time line in all directions.

I have had many of these same concerns regarding the Quiverfull philosophy. And by the way, I'm pushing 38 and it isn't much easier to trust Him than it was when I was 28 -- a little maybe, but the reality is I have six children now and I'm not sure I can handle more. And, if I were to stop using birth control, the risks of each pregnancy for birth defects/complications goes up. So I look at you and think it's easier to trust him when you're younger! :wink:

We are not a Quiverfull family. I have used bc to space my children. We may/may not stop using bc in the future, but right now I'm getting up twice a night with a 7 month old, working with the three year old on his speech, planning to start homeschooling one and potentially three of the little ones, and frankly I feel stretched pretty thin. I do not believe that it is possible that there could be a soul truly meant for our family that wouldn't get here. God is sovereign. When Paul preached to the Greeks, he pointed out that God had determined every man's place and time in history for existence (Acts 17). So if God wants a child born, that child will be born. There are no rogue molecules in the universe. :)

BUT, at the same time, I will say this. If God is calling you to something and you are refusing it, then that is sin. I would prayerfully work out in your own heart what you think God's will is, then I would approach your husband with it. I think if it is God's will for you to go Quiverfull, then he will bring you both into accord. I just think this is something that each couple really has to prayerfully work out for themselves, and there really isn't a one-size-fits-all approach. That really, from what I have seen, can sadly lead to pharisaical judgmentalism and pride.

Pencil Pusher

02-24-2008, 05:03 PM

If I understand the faith correctly, the reason God knows us before we were born is not because we had some pre-existence, but because God exists outside of time. So he knows me, this moment, as an old woman, because he is there on the timeline with me as an old woman (presuming I live that long, of course). He knows me as a baby, as if I were a baby right now. He is at all points on the timeline. He encompasses and surpasses the time line in all directions.

Could be. I'm not very good at expressing things like this, & I oftend end up phrasing my ideas in ways that sound like heresy, even to me. LOL

God is sovereign. When Paul preached to the Greeks, he pointed out that God had determined every man's place and time in history for existence (Acts 17). So if God wants a child born, that child will be born. There are no rogue molecules in the universe. :)

Well...that discounts the effects of sin, you know? I mean, we can maim & kill ea other, but that's not God's will. I think we can prevent babies God intends--whether or not that means all bc is always wrong.

JuJuBee

02-24-2008, 05:09 PM

Well...that discounts the effects of sin, you know? I mean, we can maim & kill ea other, but that's not God's will. I think we can prevent babies God intends--whether or not that means all bc is always wrong.

I don't think *all* birth control is *always* wrong, and if it were, I think God would have made it very clear for us in Scripture. I think sometimes birth control might be sinful, though, if a couple is using it in the wrong way. It's a matter of conscience, in other words. It's what's in your heart.

kalanamak

02-24-2008, 05:18 PM

We fend off death with antibiotics and surgery, etc., i.e. using our brains to do so.
How is fending off conception so different? Even choosing celibacy is using our brains to fend off conception. (It requires knowledge of how babies come about, and electing to not have that happen).
Choosing one thing over another is in even tiny infants...a baby prefers a bottle over a bre**t, a toddlers wants the purple blankie, not the green. I'm not a Christian, but it does seem if we have/were given a brain and free choice, we will/should/are mandated to use it.
Just a different thought....just me whistling as I walk on down the street...

jail warden

02-24-2008, 05:22 PM

I would like to point out there are ways to prevent pregnancy without birthcontrol.

I took birth control before we had children, but once we had our son, I became convicted that the pill and other forms were not for me. After our 2nd child was born, I was at my wit's end and needed a bit of a break and decided I had to make sure this time that I wasn't going to have another baby, however God kept telling me I wasn't in the right spirit. I got pregnant and miscarried that baby while I was on bc, but I feel it was God telling me to trust him.

Now we do family planning and use protection during the time when I could get pregnant. We have only had 1 unexpected pregnancy and that was the one while on bc. Now, I don't completely like the idea of saying it's all up to God, for myself personally(not comdeming those that do), because God gave us regular cycles that can be figured out and brains to use to figure it out. With what I'm doing I believe God can intervene at any moment and say that we need another child.

I trust in God to not give me more than I can handle, but I also do my part to prevent pregnancy, realizing that I also have a hand in this. It's kinda like financially, we depend on God, however we need to go out and make an income and not just live for the moment on credit cards, "trusting" God to bail us out. I hope this makes a little sense.

Now, I feel the need to clarify that I probably don't fall into the 'quiverfull' thinking. While I have problems with bc, because for me I don't feel right with the fact that conception can happen, just not implantation, I'm not sure that I feel that a V or having tubes tied is wrong. This, for now unless God changes my thought, is because I do know of people who've had those things done. God intervenes and says, "I'm in control. I have another being I need you to create for me." Just my $.02.

Tami

02-24-2008, 05:27 PM

I personally feel that you are very sweet to seek the Lord's will on all things. It seems that you ARE welcoming children into your home. Having 6, 8, or 10 will not make you more or less acceptable to God. I would rest in his love and enjoy the children that you and your husband have now. The future will take care of itself.

As an aside, do you REALLY feel that you, despite all your efforts, can prevent a child that God, the Sovereign King of all the Universe, would give you? Girl, I don't think so!

I don't think barrier or rhythm methods are a sin in themselves. Abortion and methods that can cause it such as The Pill, IUD, and the like, are unacceptable to me, due to the fact that these take human life that has already begun.

There are so many other areas of sin that I stumble in, that this is a non-issue to me. Remember that we are accepted in The Beloved, not on account of our own merit, family size, or organic cooking. :D

: )
Tami

Jami

02-24-2008, 05:30 PM

Maybe this has been posted. But the article I'll link from Desiring God ministries (John Piper) is the most balanced I've seen on these issues. It encourages children and yet points out where limiting family-size might be perfectly Biblical.

Jami

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/2006/1440_Does_the_Bible_permit_birth_control/

Edit: Here's another article I like by Douglas Wilson, who is more balanced than I think some would expect him to be. ;)

http://credenda.org/issues/18-4husbandry.php

kdeno

02-24-2008, 05:33 PM

"At that point I'd ask if they knew what caused children" not in a nod-nod, elbow-elbow sort of way. In a 'what do you think you are doing!?' kind of way.)

Sure we do *AND WE LOVE IT* !!! :o;):eek:

Sue G in PA

02-24-2008, 05:35 PM

As an aside, do you REALLY feel that you, despite all your efforts, can prevent a child that God, the Sovereign King of all the Universe, would give you? Girl, I don't think so!

Beautifully said! That puts it all into perspective! What a great thread, BTW, and some very thought-provoking replies from believers and non-believers alike! I just love this board for it's wisdom and different points of view...I learn so much:D

JuJuBee

02-24-2008, 05:40 PM

The hands of the almighty are not tied by birth control! A couple will have children precisely at the time God wants, whether they use birth control or not.

That's exactly what I was trying to say! I love John Piper!

Tami

02-24-2008, 05:58 PM

Let's take our American Constitution, for example. The amendments and articles can be interpreted different ways, but we are mandated to follow them one way or another.

Free will is not an issue. Free will is not necessarily in line with God. Humans have possibilities for both good and evil. Same with the brain. One person's brain tells them to do one thing, while another gal's says the opposite.

The issue for a Christian, is following our "Constitution," the Bible, and discerning what it's true meaning and intent is for our lives. Christians have an uncanny desire to discern Scripture, and then to try and obey it. I don't know if there is an analogy for the secular gal.

WHen I was secular, I just did whatever I felt was right at the time. I went with my own "heart," actually whims, and popular ethics. THere was no real dilemma for me. For me as the Christian, God's Truth is unchanging. Our dilemma as Christians is to not only know what God's will is, but to actively embrace it. God's decrees do not always line up with our human wills, and we do not always "feel like" acting in love, truthfulness, meekness, forgiveness, and the like.

Hope that explains a little from the Christian perspective. My head is stuffed up with a cold, so I hope this comes out and actually makes sense.

Virginia Dawn

02-24-2008, 06:01 PM

I am not a "quiverfull" proponent or opponent, but I think any decision you make should be done with your eyes wide open.

I know two quiverfull families and have known the moms as good friends for more than 15 years.

The first family has 11 children. The mom is now nearing 50 and her youngest is about 5, she has had two miscarriages since him and thinks she is done having kids. They have 4 bedroom house with 2 or more children in each room, they have 2 dining room tables and a 15 passenger van. They shop in bulk at warehouse stores, organic foods are out of the question. Much of the last 20 years they were not able to afford health insurance, so they used whatever public health services that were available and paid cash for the births. There were many times when they were absolutely broke. Oh yea, one bathroom!

The second family has just had their 10th child. They have had a slightly better financial situation than the first family, but not by much. The living space question has been just as difficult. Neither one went on any kind of welfare, but they did often rely on the generosity of friends and family.

Because the moms are my friends, I have seen how hard this life has been for them. The first one is now experiencing some relief, now that some of her children are grown and on their own and there are no babies to take care of.
The second has begun to think that maybe 10 children is enough for them. After all this time, they still wonder if they made the right choice. But, in a way, for them, they could see no other path.

I'm not saying there was never any joy, or satisfaction in their lives, what I am saying is that you need to look at this very carefully and understand the full implications of the decision.

jail warden

02-24-2008, 06:03 PM

Kendra

02-24-2008, 06:15 PM

melissel

02-24-2008, 06:18 PM

We fend off death with antibiotics and surgery, etc., i.e. using our brains to do so. How is fending off conception so different? Even choosing celibacy is using our brains to fend off conception.

As an interested bystander (and maybe it can help Aubrey too), can anyone address this particular issue? How is using BC to prevent pregnancy different from using medical treatment to prevent death? (I'm definitely not asking in a snarky way, I've often wondered this very thing and debated the BC issue with myself, even as a child!)

Melinda in VT

02-24-2008, 06:19 PM

Virginia Dawn

02-24-2008, 06:29 PM

For instance one might question whether God in fact wills each child to be born. Does he direct a specific sperm cell to a specific egg so a specific person comes into this world? In other words, is each child a truly miraculous (as in supernaturally determined) event?

Or, has he placed a set of physical laws in motion that we can use to determine the probability of a child's conception and birth? Does a child born in a low probability situation mean that God is responsible in a miraculous way? If I do not ever have a child, does that mean that God personally prevented conception?

Pencil Pusher

02-24-2008, 06:31 PM

As an aside, do you REALLY feel that you, despite all your efforts, can prevent a child that God, the Sovereign King of all the Universe, would give you? Girl, I don't think so!

This was exactly my pov when we first got married. Now, though...we do (as people) prevent God's will all the time, don't we? I mean, otherwise, we wouldn't be able to kill each other, etc.

Pencil Pusher

02-24-2008, 06:32 PM

As an interested bystander (and maybe it can help Aubrey too), can anyone address this particular issue? How is using BC to prevent pregnancy different from using medical treatment to prevent death? (I'm definitely not asking in a snarky way, I've often wondered this very thing and debated the BC issue with myself, even as a child!)

Well...isn't preventing death kind-of the opposite of preventing life? Not to be snarky here, either. I do see what you mean, I'm just searching, ya know.

Pencil Pusher

02-24-2008, 06:33 PM

Of course, I've been known to say that we *all* have full quivers--some of us just have bigger quivers than others!

Is it just me, or does this sound...hm...provocative? :eek: LOL

Kendra

02-24-2008, 06:35 PM

This was exactly my pov when we first got married. Now, though...we do (as people) prevent God's will all the time, don't we? I mean, otherwise, we wouldn't be able to kill each other, etc.

But of course then the question is, should we? Unlike cancer or the common cold, children are not an illness. In fact, the Bible repeatedly calls them blessings. Well, golly, we've yet to turn down a financial blessing, or the blessing of health, or a roof over our heads. For us, we just couldn't reconcile how we could tell God to bring on the blessings of all the other things but, "No thanks, God. We're not interested in being blessed with more children." Who do we think we are?

Jami

02-24-2008, 06:40 PM

Well said, Kendra.

The more I let the decisions about our family (size, location, use of resources) rest on dh's shoulders, the more peace and freedom from anxiety I feel. He is happy to listen to my input, advice, council, etc. on these things and I trust that he takes my heart into account, but the responsibility for the final decisions rest with him and he is accountable before God.

As Aubrey knows, we had three children in rapid succession. The third was in-utero during a very rough time for our family and her birth was an emergency c-section which I had a hard time recovering from (especially with two toddlers to care for at that time). At that point dh said, 'three is great, we're done at three' and I *mostly* agreed. But we decided to give ourselves 2 years before making final decisions and I left bc up to dh (barrier and timing with my cycle). After 2 years we were still overwhelmed with the three little ones and preparing for a huge move and transition in our lives, so being *done* still seemd wise. But we couldn't quite bring ourselves to be *done, done* ;) in part because dh was not yet 30 and I was just 30. We've continued to have the very kinds of conversations that you (Aubrey) and L are having. And I read the articles above that I linked for you. We continue to feel a great deal of freedom as believers in this area. But as *my* heart has started moving toward wanting a fourth and our youngest is now almost four...dh has to weigh whether our finances, parenting energy, emotional energy, responsibilites to the three we already have make having a fourth child a wise decision for our family. I'm thankful that he is able to think through these things in a more detached way, unlike my hormonally and baby-lust driven desires! :) But he's listened to my thoughts and reasonings and even the emotionally-charged arguments...and is now ready to add a fourth child to the mix. In God's timing of course, since we can't quite order one the moment we decide we're ready! :D

But if dh says four is where we stop, then that's the right decision for our family. I trust his judgement, more than my own even. ;)

These are hard issues and in our 10 years of marriage we've been round and round the same arguments and issue, but erring on the side of grace and not binding ourselves where the Bible is silent and spending most of our energy on obeying where the Bible is very clear (loving one another, bringing up our children in Godliness, submission and leadership, etc.) seems to help relieve some of the earlier anxiety we (I) felt about these issues.

Jami

Pencil Pusher

02-24-2008, 06:44 PM

I'm not going to go into all the things discussed above because like certain theological points, there will probably never be a definitive answer that everyone agrees upon.

However, we are as wives commanded by God to obey our husbands. If you are struggling with either having or not having more and your husband is on a different page, then you need to pray and duck-- pray, duck, and ask God to hit your husband! Then when he makes a decision in either direction, all you have to do is follow.

I am expecting our 8th, and have had a miscarriage, which means we have dealt with this issue nine times. I am blessed to have a husband who takes his role as my shepherd and protector very seriously. We both desire to be faithful to God and we both do no believe that it is our right to put our hands on our hips and tell the God of the universe what we are going to do, in any area of our lives. So there is balance: we don't tell God how many and my husband prayerfully considers every month. There have been seasons when I thought I was ready for another baby and he said, "Not now". That was hard for me, but all I had to do was obey. Now I am in a season of having two babies back-to-back, which neither I nor my husband "planned". We make plans, God laughs, no? ;) God wants this baby born in May, despite our awkward efforts to delay pregnancy. It really is all up to Him.

Your husband will stand before the Lord someday as the head of your household and take account for the decisions he made in leading you. You can rest and relax in the knowledge that your job is to obey him, and as long as he is not leading you to sin, then you have full assurance that whatever your husband's decision is, by following him, you have been faithful.

Since I'm not quite at the point of being willing to hand this over to the Lord, I'm more than willling to let dh lead, kwim? Becuase at this point, I know it scares him as much as it does me.

But he just came home from work for a couple of hrs, & we were talking about this thread. He said again that basically he's not ready to hear that from the Lord.

That's when it hit me. He keeps saying that, & it's a phrase he only uses when he IS hearing the Lord, lol. I pointed this out to him, & he agreed. He said he's been wondering about it for a few years.

I'd say we're both too scared to force anything on the other one, but we're also at the point that we can't deny that we're hearing something. Kwim? Our attitude up to now has been to use bc we're comfortable w/ (though its effectiveness is statistically low) & follow the Lord's leading. We felt led to have #3 & obeyed. We felt called to have #1 & #4 but were too chicken to obey specifically (i.e., TRY) but did not, er, inhibit.

For now, I feel okay with continuing with that frame of mind, but I feel like it's just a baby step to something more. I'd been thinking for a few yrs that I'd really like the feeling of knowing I was done being pg. It's so disruptive to life, etc. Now, I'm thinking of changing my frame of ref. Maybe being pg is just a part of life, & I need to learn to acclamate. (I'm pretty sure that's spelled wrong.)

Just thinking. Thanks for your thoughts.

melissel

02-24-2008, 06:45 PM

Well...isn't preventing death kind-of the opposite of preventing life? Not to be snarky here, either. I do see what you mean, I'm just searching, ya know.

Ha, true. I wasn't actually thinking of it in those terms, though. I would assume that a person's passing is as much an act of God's will as a person's creation. I hear people say that all the time, "God had a plan...God wanted her by his side...God took her back to be with him." I guess I'm wondering how one could reconcile using medical procedures to thwart death, but not birth, particularly when that birth might prove as painful for a family emotionally as a loved one's death might be. I'm conflicted about my own beliefs, so I guess I'm just searching too :o

Pencil Pusher

02-24-2008, 06:46 PM

But of course then the question is, should we? Unlike cancer or the common cold, children are not an illness. In fact, the Bible repeatedly calls them blessings. Well, golly, we've yet to turn down a financial blessing, or the blessing of health, or a roof over our heads. For us, we just couldn't reconcile how we could tell God to bring on the blessings of all the other things but, "No thanks, God. We're not interested in being blessed with more children." Who do we think we are?

I hadn't thought of it like that. Good point.

I have so many thoughts both directions!! Wouldn't it be nice if things were just EASY? LOL

Kendra

02-24-2008, 06:49 PM

I'd been thinking for a few yrs that I'd really like the feeling of knowing I was done being pg. It's so disruptive to life, etc. Now, I'm thinking of changing my frame of ref. Maybe being pg is just a part of life, & I need to learn to acclamate.

No denying that here! This isn't an easy path. Early on when I mentioned to my mom that we were leaning this way she said, "I'm just afraid you're jumping on a bandwagon."

Let me tell you-- if I were to jump on a bandwagon, this would not be it. The lay-by-the-pool-drinking-pina-coladas bandwagon? THAT'S the bandwagon I want to be on :D

But... would I put any of them back? Would I trade any one of our seven? Not a chance. I am so, so thankful God called us to this. And we have no regrets. We feel we've been faithful, and that's what we want most.

Jami

02-24-2008, 06:58 PM

And this is where I find I disagree with the Quiverfull argument and really like the comparison the Desiring God article makes. We're called to be fruitful and multiply, to subdue the earth, in the Creation Mandate in Genesis. But farmers do not buy or attempt to till and work as much land as they possibly can, though wouldn't subduing MORE of creation be MORE of a blessing? No, they thoughtfully take into account the amount of land their resources can bring to the fullest harvest. Resources including time, finances, physical strength, etc. Our calling is to bring up children who can be *effective* arrows, Godly arrows. And that means that choosing to space or limit those arrows may be wise. If I can not teach and disciple *well* more than 4 children (as far as I or my husband know and God of course will demonstrate I can handle more if that is what he pleases to do) and if I cannot care for my home and husband as I have already been called to with one child or a dozen, then more children are perhaps not wise.

I would also recommend the excellent book on making decisions in general to you, Aubrey. "Decision Making and the Will of God" by Gary Friesen. This book has been a wonderful guide to dh and I over the years and has given us a huge sense of freedom from fearing making the "wrong" decision about things which God has not expressly forbidden.

Jami

Quiver0f10

02-24-2008, 07:07 PM

I agree with Kendra, to listen to your DH and his leading. Continue to pray, continue to seek His will and listen. Being quiverfull doesn't always = 20 kids either. You could leave it up to God and have no more children. You could leave it up to God and have 10 more children. Truely being quiverfull is leaving the #, the timing, thehealth, the financial and all of it up to God. Trust Him to provide all your needs as He sees fit.

We haven't had much money and things seem to be a struggle with us for money, but He has always met our needs and sometimes our wants, too. I don't think God ever promised life would be rosey, but He does promise to take care of our needs if we trust Him. Matt 6:31-34

Pencil Pusher

02-24-2008, 07:35 PM

But farmers do not buy or attempt to till and work as much land as they possibly can, though wouldn't subduing MORE of creation be MORE of a blessing? No, they thoughtfully take into account the amount of land their resources can bring to the fullest harvest. Resources including time, finances, physical strength, etc.

Ok, good point. But, otoh, isn't this more like, um, somehow making soil that you already own infertile & then planting seeds there?

The thing is, I really, really want to agree w/ you! I have, up to now.

As to the wisdom of a great # of children, I don't see that there could be any, at least not in this day & age. And yet, my idea of wisdom is not always God's. (Very often, though.;))

I would also recommend the excellent book on making decisions in general to you, Aubrey. "Decision Making and the Will of God" by Gary Friesen. This book has been a wonderful guide to dh and I over the years and has given us a huge sense of freedom from fearing making the "wrong" decision about things which God has not expressly forbidden.

I'm wondering about this issue, but not in terms of condemnation, guilt, etc. I guess I figure that as long as I live, I will be doing something that's not the way God would have me do it. He'll address these issues one at a time, & the more I yield, the more He'll have time to get to before I die.

I don't see it as an issue of being more or less accepted by God or anything like that. Otoh, I have found that when I resist the Lord, I'm generally wrong, & I'm happier when I follow Him.

I'm afraid I'm getting redundant. I was raised in a denomination that was very fear-based, & if you didn't do things right, you'd go to hell. I'm FAAAAARR from that now. If I tend to sound that way, it's not what I mean!:)

Kendra

02-24-2008, 07:42 PM

If I can not teach and disciple *well* more than 4 children (as far as I or my husband know and God of course will demonstrate I can handle more if that is what he pleases to do) and if I cannot care for my home and husband as I have already been called to with one child or a dozen, then more children are perhaps not wise.

The Pearls wrote an article addressing this called "Raising Rats". And I agree-- we do have to be faithfully raising our children to love and serve God.

Still, we won't make a permanent decision (vasectomy, tubal ligation, etc.) because we have seen that with each one, God has given grace. I always freak out a little before a new baby is born with thoughts of, "I can't do this! I'm not equipped to have this many!" But then I see that when we had our fourth, I suddenly had grace for four that I did not previously have with three. And grace for five that I didn't have with four, etc.

Where God provides the mouths, He provides the meat. Or the help. Or whatever our needs may be. He doesn't call people to the mission field to abandon them there. Likewise, He has not called us to parent many only to strand us without the proper tools.

Pencil Pusher

02-24-2008, 07:48 PM

The Pearls wrote an article addressing this called "Raising Rats". And I agree-- we do have to be faithfully raising our children to love and serve God.

Still, we won't make a permanent decision (vasectomy, tubal ligation, etc.) because we have seen that with each one, God has given grace. I always freak out a little before a new baby is born with thoughts of, "I can't do this! I'm not equipped to have this many!" But then I see that when we had our fourth, I suddenly had grace for four that I did not previously have with three. And grace for five that I didn't have with four, etc.

Where God provides the mouths, He provides the meat. Or the help. Or whatever our needs may be. He doesn't call people to the mission field to abandon them there. Likewise, He has not called us to parent many only to strand us without the proper tools.

I agree. This may not always be the case, but for me, I couldn't have imagined how much I'd grow between #1 & now. I still don't feel adequate, but can we ever?

Plus, it's easy to forget that the big ones get bigger. When I imagine a scary-big # (like 8, lol), I imagine my oldest is still only 7. When I figure in that he'll be AT LEAST 4 yrs older...it seems more doable. I can't believe how sweet & wonderfully helpful he & 4yo dd are NOW, much less 4 yrs from now.

That sounds like I'm treating them like servants. What I mean, though, is that because of their faithfulness to be obedient & cooperative, I have an easier time having faith in God's will/provision, etc. Imagine what a wonderful thing for your parents to say to you? Because you were faithful when you were young, I was better able to follow God.

That could be misused, misapplied, etc., but assuming it's not...

For ex, I just started assigning 30 min increments for dc to play w/ baby in her room while I do school w/ the other one, ala MOTH. They cooperate pretty cheerfully, but the real kicker was the other day when I put baby to bed, & they weren't expecting it. They both objected that they had wanted to play w/ her!

Kendra

02-24-2008, 07:54 PM

Aubrey, what you're doing is hard. When I had our fourth, our first was just six, and it was HARD. We don't consider ourselves "Quiverfull" because we do *gasp* ask God for wisdom and sometimes try to delay a pregnancy if my dh thinks it is wise, but one of the things that bothers me in the QF movement is the tendency to ignore the fact that having lots of little children isn't easy. Same with homeschoolers-- it irks me when some are not willing to admit that it isn't always fun to be with your kids all. day. long.

So, aside from the fact that children are a blessing, aside from the fact that homeschooling is an excellent way to disciple our children, both paths are difficult, and the fact that you and your dh are struggling through it is absolutely ok to admit. Just ask God to make you faithful. That's what He requires of us.

nancypants

02-24-2008, 08:29 PM

I am blessed to have a husband who takes his role as my shepherd and protector very seriously....
Your husband will stand before the Lord someday as the head of your household and take account for the decisions he made in leading you.

This is very true. At the same time the Bible tells us to submit to one another in love out of reverence for Christ... If a woman has very difficult or dangerous pregnancies or if she is extremely stressed, or even depressed, with what she already has and is not being properly attended to or having her needs met, she sure better have a husband that loves her as he loves his own body! And as your husband is very careful to pay attention to, a man better know that he is able and willing to adequately provide. A man who loves his wife as he loves his own body will listen to her heart and mind and will take them strongly into consideration.

Unfortunately I've known too many women that "obeyed" their husbands on this issue and essentially had no voice on the matter. That is absolutely not Biblical. (Kendra, I am *not* saying this is the case with you at all! Please know that!) In many instances a husband has done this and insisted on having as many blessings as possible and promptly left his wife and many blessings behind to fend for themselves. I have seen this too many times.

I completely agree with you Kendra, that God is sovereign no matter what and that he works in, through, over and above our plans. God does not tell us not to make plans or choices. We must and we do so daily. If we don't we are being irresponsible. But we must leave the outcome to Him and thank Him for his sovereignty whether our plans succeed or are overruled by His gracious sovereign hand.

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines his steps.

Pencil Pusher

02-24-2008, 08:30 PM

And I would ask if you are feeling challenged or being led, not by the Lord, but by others.

I've been thinking about this all day. I don't personally know anybody who feels this way. This has come up independently of others, & since then, I've heard of friends of friends who believe this way--still haven't met anyone.

After talking to dh today, he's been praying about this for a couple of yrs.

Other than that, the closest we've come to this kind of mindset is our Catholic friends. We know two couples who are "good" Catholics. One plans on having 3 children & simply using NFP to prevent more. They're pg w/ #1 & are relatively new converts.

The other couple are both "cradle Catholics" and have 4 dc. One comes from a family of 14, but they weren't even completely aware of the Catholic stance on bc when we met them, although they pretty much knew they were going to have a big family & were content w/ that.

Catholicism seems a little different to me, though, for 2 reasons. 1. They accept NFP. 2. Bc (except for NFP) IS considered sin, so there's less to grapple w/.

But the "others" in my life think I'm crazy to have 4. They want some kind of assurance that we're done now.

Pencil Pusher

02-24-2008, 08:37 PM

This is very true. At the same time the Bible tells us to submit to one another in love out of reverence for Christ... If a woman has very difficult or dangerous pregnancies or if she is extremely stressed, or even depressed, with what she already has and is not being properly attended to or having her needs met, she sure better have a husband that loves her as he loves his own body! And as your husband is very careful to pay attention to, a man better know that he is able and willing to adequately provide. A man who loves his wife as he loves his own body will listen to her heart and mind and will take them strongly into consideration.

Unfortunately I've known too many women that "obeyed" their husbands on this issue and essentially had no voice on the matter. That is absolutely not Biblical. (Kendra, I am *not* saying this is the case with you at all! Please know that!) In many instances a husband has done this and insisted on having as many blessings as possible and promptly left his wife and many blessings behind to fend for themselves. I have seen this too many times.

I completely agree with you Kendra, that God is sovereign no matter what and that he works in, through, over and above our plans. God does not tell us not to make plans or choices. We must and we do so daily. If we don't we are being irresponsible. But we must leave the outcome to Him and thank Him for his sovereignty whether our plans succeed or are overruled by His gracious sovereign hand.

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course,

but the LORD determines his steps.

See, I get caught up in what-ifs. I have a friend for whom pregnancy is life-threatening. She has one child, & I'd imagine she'll have one more. But she is surely justified in using bc!

And, of course, I feel the same way about women w/ post-partum depression or marital issues, etc.

So maybe it's wrong to look for a mandate for all women. Or maybe if there is some kind of general rule, it's for healthy women w/ good dh's, etc.

I know for me, pg's a drag, but my babies & I have been healthy enough that that's absolutely not an issue. My dh (no offense to anyone else's) is the best on the planet. ;) Not that that helps w/ bc! LOL

So...I'm sort of forcing the what-if's to the side, because, honestly, I *know* they don't apply to me. They absolutely DO apply to others, though, & I don't mean to judge anyone who falls under different sets of circumstances. Really, I hope I'm not judging anyone, period. Because, I'm pretty off-the-wall wrong about quite a bit of stuff, & when it comes to having dc, well, you can't put them back, can you?

Peek a Boo

02-24-2008, 08:42 PM

well, as I mentioned previously on the old board, marriage is a blessing, yet we don't just go out and marry any old person ASAP --we consider it thoughtfully and prayerfully. Paul even advised some to remain unmarried in specific stressful times. Just because something is a blessing does not mean we need to pursue it blindly.

dh was recently offered an *extra* $2500 every *month* if he would sacrifice his schedule to be on call 24/7 and only 4 days off a month. He turned it down because he knew he could simply NOT be grateful for it --he would be bitter about being on call all. the. time. I know that was a tough decision for him as the provider of the family.

So are there times we turn down "blessings"? You betcha.

Absolutely follow dh's lead on this, but don't shirk YOUR responsibility in sharing honestly your thoughts and concerns and feelings about it.

I like what nancy said: "God does not tell us not to make plans or choices."

We are our dh's *helpers*--and if we don't do our part in helping them w/ facts and feelings, we aren't obeying in a scriptural manner. Our dh's need all the info they can get to make a good decision. withold nothing from him. he has an awesome responsibility --help him completely.

RoughCollie

02-24-2008, 08:43 PM

I think that God is all powerful. As such, He can circumvent birth control any time He likes, so those who want to use may as well do so. Certainly there are a lot of women who get pregnant while using birth control.

There are even women like me, who get pregnant even though it is physically impossible. I prayed for another baby after my triplets were born, and 3 months later, I was pregnant with DD. If it had not been impossible, it would have been highly improbable because DH and I didn't have time to try as we were busy taking care of premature, sickly triplet infants. So it's not like we were behaving like newlyweds or anything.

Jan in SC

02-24-2008, 08:47 PM

I think that this is an important enough topic for you and your husband that you should make decisions after you've had this baby. My thoughts during pregnancy are usually all over the place. I think this issue will seem clearer after the baby is born. (Whichever way you choose!)

Nancypants- I like you more with each post you write!

Peek a Boo

02-24-2008, 08:54 PM

Aubrey-- the "general mandate" is definitely NOT tied up in the what-if's --you are wise to put them aside.

the general mandate is tied to the *heart* not the body.

If doing something will make you bitter, then do NOT do it. Just because you aren't hearing this from any other *person* does not mean there aren't other forces at work on this earth. Following God leads to peace. Not necessarily prosperity or lack of struggle ;), but a peace nonetheless.

If delaying a pregnancy will make you bitter, don't. If having another child this soon will make you bitter over a quiverful mentality, then don't. As has been said, God makes things happen whether we want them to or not. When people kill others, that is disobedience, period. There's a commandment about that! There is no commandment to go forth and have *as many* kids as possible. You've multiplied. Cross that off your checklist, lol and continue to study God's Word. Good luck :-)

Plaid Dad

02-24-2008, 08:57 PM

I'm posting this with some trepidation, but here goes.

I'm assuming from your first post that (1) you are Protestant and (2) your decision will be based on an understanding of Scriptural teaching as binding on the conscience of believers. In other words, if you are convicted that the Bible teaches that birth control is sinful, you would feel obligated not to use it. Since the Quiverfull movement adds to this a rejection of planned continence within marriage for the purposes of preventing conception (e.g., NFP), I'm assuming that (2) applies to this proposition as well.

Now I am coming at this from a different place from many here. First, I'm a man - and I don't for a minute discount the difference that makes in discussions like these. Second, I'm Catholic, although raised Protestant. The Catholic Church has clear teachings on family planning (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P86.HTM), and those teachings are binding for Catholics. Briefly, the Church rejects artificial birth control but allows for periodic continence; the Quiverfull movement, therefore, argues against something that the Catholic Church teaches is morally licit.

For me, the first question to ask is: What does your denomination/tradition/church teach about birth control and family planning? If your church does not have an explicit teaching, then I would talk over your concerns with your dh and together consult your pastor. If after that conversation you still have no clear conviction, then and only then would I begin to search around for input from religious teachers outside your tradition.

The reason I say this is that the underlying theology is not always as cut-and-dried as "the Bible says so." Although the Bible does not present an unequivocal teaching on birth control, virtually all Christians rejected it until only about a century ago - something that should give us pause. Much depends on your understanding of Genesis and what is referred to by some as the dominion mandate, as well as other passages of Scripture that speak about conception, childbirth, and infertility. All of this gets into denominational distinctives that I am not competent to sort out and that are probably too controversial to go into on this board in any case. My point is that you will find "biblical" arguments complete with proof texts on all sides of this issue, but rarely will you see all the underlying presuppositions spelled out carefully. If you want a consistent moral understanding, you need to seek out those presuppositions and make sure that the position you and your dh choose is of a piece with the rest of your beliefs.

I'm sorry if this all sounds terribly abstract, but I'm trying very hard not to step on anyone's toes. I hope this helps anyway. God bless you and your dh in your search for answers.

Edited to add: Several other posts were added in the time I was composing this reply, so I see that you're already familiar with the Catholic position on this issue. :)

nancypants

02-24-2008, 09:01 PM

I'm sorry if this all sounds terribly abstract, but I'm trying very hard not to step on anyone's toes. I hope this helps anyway. God bless you and your dh in your search for answers.

Plaid Dad, even if I don't completely agree with your perspective on this, I think you gave some very wise advice. Good on ya!

Kendra

02-24-2008, 09:07 PM

Yah, Nan, I agree.

And I have to say, everyone-- I have seen some very, very ugly fights on blogs and message boards over this topic. Thank you all for being thoughtful, temperate, and "slow to speak, slow to anger."

I entered this thread with much trepidation, but I am glad now that I took part and was able to hear everyone else on the matter, as well.

PariSarah

02-24-2008, 09:13 PM

I'll just address one part of what you said.

When it gets down to it, the truth is, I don't trust God to give me the right # of children. I think I know better than He does. Or if He does know how many, He certainly wouldn't space them appropriately. Or He doesn't know the effects it would have on my body. Or my mind, LOL!:eek:

But, really, aren't those all ways of saying that I don't believe God is who He says he is. No, honestly, when I think about these things, I find myself questioning God's existence at all. Not that I don't believe, exactly, but IF I do, then this shouldn't really be an issue. But it is, & when it comes to this issue, I find that I think of God as something obscure & distant &...well, not real.

I think you've nailed it here. That's exactly what it comes down to.

Like you, I suspect that BC is a way of controlling our lives out of fear that God will not do it right. (Combined with the arrogance that assumes that if a scientist can describe it, we know what's "really" going on.)

Yet.

I've never been able to embrace in practice what I've already come to believe. And it's utterly and completely a matter of not trusting God. That's absolutely what it is.

Here's the one small thing I take comfort in: there are biblical instances of people "talking back" to God and living. Abraham argues with God about the fate of Sodom. Moses refuses God's offer to destroy Israel and make a new Moses-nation. Ezekiel tells God that the little living sermon God has planned for him is too much for him to bear (God asks him to roast his food on a fire made of humanure). And God relents in all these cases.

I think there is room for people to tell God, "Yes, you're right. But I'm too weak for that yet." That's what the Ezekiel case was about, anyway. God is Father and Mother, not the Justice Dispensing Machine.

There will be people who will use that as an excuse to do whatever they want. But that's not what I'm talking about--I'm talking about faithful, even holy people, who find that one thing God asks of them is just too hard.

Peek a Boo

02-24-2008, 09:31 PM

not the Justice Dispensing Machine.

LOL!

Janna

02-24-2008, 09:51 PM

Here's the one small thing I take comfort in: there are biblical instances of people "talking back" to God and living. Abraham argues with God about the fate of Sodom. Moses refuses God's offer to destroy Israel and make a new Moses-nation. Ezekiel tells God that the little living sermon God has planned for him is too much for him to bear (God asks him to roast his food on a fire made of humanure). And God relents in all these cases.

I think there is room for people to tell God, "Yes, you're right. But I'm too weak for that yet." That's what the Ezekiel case was about, anyway. God is Father and Mother, not the Justice Dispensing Machine.

Absolutely I agree that there are people who have "talked back" to God and lived. I'm one of them, too. Seriously.

But.

In the examples you listed, I would just gently argue that they weren't saying "it's too hard. I can't handle it yet." Even in the Ezekiel example. They were, in my mind, arguing with God over issues that were against the heart of God. It's hard to put that into words correctly, because if it's against the heart of God, than how could God suggest the things he did, right? But life is precious. We were made to be God's companions. So it's understandable (and right) that Abraham would argue for the lives of those in Sodom. But even still, he was "negotiating" the righteous. God knew there were none except Lot. Moses was able to argue with God because he was holding God to his promise. He was in essence saying, "You can't destroy the Israelites! Remember that little covenant you made with Abraham way back when?" And Ezekiel argued about defiling himself - something that was very much against God's laws at the time.

My point is that God throws those things out there to see where our hearts lie in relation to him. For that is all he really wants. It is what we were created for and His desire for our hearts to be molded to be like him has never and will never, change.

The issue with that you said, Aubrey, and what PariSarah honed in on, is exactly the issue. God wants to know He has your heart. Apparently this is the way He knows will determine whether or not He has it. I can tell you that I could not more fully relate to your feelings, because I am in the exact same position.

Dh and I never used bc in the traditional sense, BUT we became convicted almost simultaneously that the mere fact that we were abstaining during the middle of the month, was indeed bc. Were we going to trust God? At the same time this happened, we had been convicted to begin praying together daily. Up to that point, we had had a strained relationship...fighting a lot...because we never ceased control about anything to the Lord. So after beginning to pray nightly together, out loud, things have changed. Oh my goodness, things have changed. My dh's heart has changed towards me, my heart has changed towards him, and he has finally taken the role of provider, protector and spiritual head of our home. This began in July of '07 (both the praying and the releasing of "bc" to God). In Sept. we found out I was pg (we have a will-be-10yo by the time the baby is born, girl, and a 6 yr. old boy). It has been very hard for me. For one because I struggle with PPD and I keep saying to God, "You know I struggle with this! Why are you giving it to me again?" But also, it's been hard because it comes down to the fact that I'm selfish. All of my time will be devoted to an infant again, just when I was feeling like I had some time in the day to breath for myself, you know? But my dh...he's been fantastic about it since the day we found out (which was on our 11th anniversary). His trust is solely in the Lord about this.

The other thing, that is much fresher, is that recently (last month), we were both convicted to start giving a true tithe. Up to last month we made our payments (mortgage, insurance gas/electric etc) and what was leftover after all else was taken care of, we gave to the Lord. It was maybe 3% - a joke. So here, we're expecting a baby, where I was already worrying about how our finances would be, and He's telling us to tithe!? We're talking hundreds of dollars a month! We were short $400 in January and $700 this month. But somehow - I honestly have no idea how because there wasn't the classic letter in the mail with money in it - we've been able to tithe, pay our bills and still have money for wants. We weren't even giving into wants before January! But I can't tell you how giving from the top - immediately writing out a tithe before anything else - how hard that was (still is). Ultimately we had to admit to ourselves, "If we can trust God with our salvation - our very lives - can we not trust him with 10% of our money?" In that perspective we feel foolish and we wholeheartedly give.

But. God knew that he didn't have our hearts in these two areas. So he's growing us here. No where in scripture does it talk about prosperity (financial or not) being what God wants for us. Except prosperity in knowing him. In fact, the New Testament speaks over and over about how we must run the race and not give up. Perseverance. If God made everything easy for us, why would we ever need to come to Him?

I can't answer your question about bc, Aubrey. And people are right - there's going to be answers, even Biblical answers, that will prove both sides. But I do know that no matter what, God wants your heart. So if that means giving up bc for now to do that, then that's what I would do.

With much, much understanding,
Janna

CLHCO

02-24-2008, 10:03 PM

The part where you speculate if we are preventing people that should be born.

I am thinking that birth control does not prevent anyone and here is why. Let's assume that you believe bc to be sin. (I'm not saying I do.) It is not unprecedented for God's will to be brought about through the sin of another. That doesn't mean it's good that we're sinning. God's will can simply use our sin for His will, does that make sense? For example, Joseph's brothers sinned against him when he was sold as a slave. He mentioned that what they meant for evil, God meant for good. Also, Jacob lied and stole his brother's birthright. However, it was God's will for him to have it in the first place. In each case the people sinned but in each case God's will was done. God was thinking generationally. He wanted Jacob to be the patriarch. He needed Joseph in Egypt, which eventually brought the Hebrews there, etc. Even the sin of those who crucified Christ saw His will done despite sin.

His will for the future of the human race is not going to be stopped because one person in the line of humans that was supposed to be born did not get born. He knows through time who is to be born and under what circumstances. Otherwise there would be large numbers of people throughout the ages not born who otherwise may have had a million decendents. It expands from there in a way that just hurts my head to think about. If that person isn't born then the child they were to have doesn't get to be born, etc.

Sometimes the circumstance is sin but sometimes no one was to be born and sin brought that about.

Okay, enough on the idea that it's a sin, since that's not what I believe. Let's assume then that it isn't sin, but instead simply not necessarily His best blessing, which is where I sometimes see myself. Same principle applies. Then we can assume you have prayed and are certain He has led you to your decision to have no others. Well, no conflict there. For what it's worth, that's where I am most of the time.

Perhaps the connection breaks down terribly somewhere in my own fuzzy thinking. It's no a clear conviction, it's just an idea that came to me at the moment and perhaps worth a bit more brain work on.

Pencil Pusher

02-24-2008, 10:08 PM

For me, the first question to ask is: What does your denomination/tradition/church teach about birth control and family planning?

No, our church has no specific teaching on bc. Our background would teach, if anything, that we are to be *responsible stewards* of what God's given us, i.e., use bc.

The reason I say this is that the underlying theology is not always as cut-and-dried as "the Bible says so." Although the Bible does not present an unequivocal teaching on birth control, virtually all Christians rejected it until only about a century ago - something that should give us pause.

I agree. I once had a friend who said drugs & tobacco were ok because the Bible didn't forbid them! And yes, I realize that it's been less than a century since the church changed it's stance on bc.

Much depends on your understanding of Genesis and what is referred to by some as the dominion mandate, as well as other passages of Scripture that speak about conception, childbirth, and infertility. All of this gets into denominational distinctives that I am not competent to sort out and that are probably too controversial to go into on this board in any case. My point is that you will find "biblical" arguments complete with proof texts on all sides of this issue, but rarely will you see all the underlying presuppositions spelled out carefully. If you want a consistent moral understanding, you need to seek out those presuppositions and make sure that the position you and your dh choose is of a piece with the rest of your beliefs.

I see the dominion argument. For some reason, I have a hard time w/ that one. Maybe it's just too...confrontational. I don't know. I guess I'm looking at it from a faith & affirmation of life standpoint. I know there are scriptures that can be read both ways, but I find it a little harder to argue the ones that *could* be read in favor of bc.

Fwiw, this was one of the major issues for us w/ the Catholic church when our friends converted. At the time, we equated NFP w/ the barrier method because neither *destroyed* life. I could see these being both right or both wrong, but not splitting the issue.

Now, though, I feel that NFP is wrong, since Paul says the only legitimate reason for abstinence w/in marriage is for prayer & fasting. That's an oversimplification, but it's essentially how I feel. And, of course, if saying no to life is in itself wrong, then NFP is really no different from other methods in that regard. It seems like the difference between telling two children to sweep the floor. One sits down & refuses while the other makes a bigger mess. Both are wrong. But all of that is IF it's wrong to say no to life, which is my real question at this point.

I really appreciate your input, & I hope I haven't offended you, either!

Pencil Pusher

02-24-2008, 10:14 PM

I'll just address one part of what you said.

I think you've nailed it here. That's exactly what it comes down to.

Like you, I suspect that BC is a way of controlling our lives out of fear that God will not do it right. (Combined with the arrogance that assumes that if a scientist can describe it, we know what's "really" going on.)

Yet.

I've never been able to embrace in practice what I've already come to believe. And it's utterly and completely a matter of not trusting God. That's absolutely what it is.

Here's the one small thing I take comfort in: there are biblical instances of people "talking back" to God and living. Abraham argues with God about the fate of Sodom. Moses refuses God's offer to destroy Israel and make a new Moses-nation. Ezekiel tells God that the little living sermon God has planned for him is too much for him to bear (God asks him to roast his food on a fire made of humanure). And God relents in all these cases.

I think there is room for people to tell God, "Yes, you're right. But I'm too weak for that yet." That's what the Ezekiel case was about, anyway. God is Father and Mother, not the Justice Dispensing Machine.

There will be people who will use that as an excuse to do whatever they want. But that's not what I'm talking about--I'm talking about faithful, even holy people, who find that one thing God asks of them is just too hard.

Oh, thank you! You don't know how encouraging it is to know someone else feels this way!

And I'm not worried about God smiting me--He's had much better reasons than this before now, LOL!

Recognizing His leading is the first step. IF this is Him, then I have to get to the point of recognizing that so I'll quit arguing THAT point.

Then there's the follow-through. When it comes to that, though I feel a little trepidatious (if that's a word), I know that every. other. time. I've followed him, the outcome has been WAY. BETTER. than if I'd done what I wanted. Hands down.

And when I think about it like that, I KNOW that IF this is God's call, it's a good one. I just want to be sure it's Him! Haha! But I can already pretty much tell by the way I'm talking and what dh has said that...well...we'll see. LOL

Thank you SO much for your honesty! Not that everyone else hasn't been honest; I believe they have. I just think...saying you think this way is a little harder to admit. (Like stinky belly buttons. shhh.):)

Pencil Pusher

02-24-2008, 10:20 PM

Pencil Pusher

02-24-2008, 10:22 PM

Being quiverfull doesn't always = 20 kids either. You could leave it up to God and have no more children. You could leave it up to God and have 10 more children. Truely being quiverfull is leaving the #, the timing, thehealth, the financial and all of it up to God. Trust Him to provide all your needs as He sees fit.

I know, but that's just the thing. I'm fine with trusting him if his plan is 4-5 dc. Beyond that, I'm not fine w/ trusting.

So I guess that's really not trusting at all, is it?

Pencil Pusher

02-24-2008, 10:31 PM

Absolutely I agree that there are people who have "talked back" to God and lived. I'm one of them, too. Seriously.

But.

In the examples you listed, I would just gently argue that they weren't saying "it's too hard. I can't handle it yet." Even in the Ezekiel example. They were, in my mind, arguing with God over issues that were against the heart of God. It's hard to put that into words correctly, because if it's against the heart of God, than how could God suggest the things he did, right? But life is precious. We were made to be God's companions. So it's understandable (and right) that Abraham would argue for the lives of those in Sodom. But even still, he was "negotiating" the righteous. God knew there were none except Lot. Moses was able to argue with God because he was holding God to his promise. He was in essence saying, "You can't destroy the Israelites! Remember that little covenant you made with Abraham way back when?" And Ezekiel argued about defiling himself - something that was very much against God's laws at the time.

My point is that God throws those things out there to see where our hearts lie in relation to him. For that is all he really wants. It is what we were created for and His desire for our hearts to be molded to be like him has never and will never, change.

The issue with that you said, Aubrey, and what PariSarah honed in on, is exactly the issue. God wants to know He has your heart. Apparently this is the way He knows will determine whether or not He has it. I can tell you that I could not more fully relate to your feelings, because I am in the exact same position.

Dh and I never used bc in the traditional sense, BUT we became convicted almost simultaneously that the mere fact that we were abstaining during the middle of the month, was indeed bc. Were we going to trust God? At the same time this happened, we had been convicted to begin praying together daily. Up to that point, we had had a strained relationship...fighting a lot...because we never ceased control about anything to the Lord. So after beginning to pray nightly together, out loud, things have changed. Oh my goodness, things have changed. My dh's heart has changed towards me, my heart has changed towards him, and he has finally taken the role of provider, protector and spiritual head of our home. This began in July of '07 (both the praying and the releasing of "bc" to God). In Sept. we found out I was pg (we have a will-be-10yo by the time the baby is born, girl, and a 6 yr. old boy). It has been very hard for me. For one because I struggle with PPD and I keep saying to God, "You know I struggle with this! Why are you giving it to me again?" But also, it's been hard because it comes down to the fact that I'm selfish. All of my time will be devoted to an infant again, just when I was feeling like I had some time in the day to breath for myself, you know? But my dh...he's been fantastic about it since the day we found out (which was on our 11th anniversary). His trust is solely in the Lord about this.

The other thing, that is much fresher, is that recently (last month), we were both convicted to start giving a true tithe. Up to last month we made our payments (mortgage, insurance gas/electric etc) and what was leftover after all else was taken care of, we gave to the Lord. It was maybe 3% - a joke. So here, we're expecting a baby, where I was already worrying about how our finances would be, and He's telling us to tithe!? We're talking hundreds of dollars a month! We were short $400 in January and $700 this month. But somehow - I honestly have no idea how because there wasn't the classic letter in the mail with money in it - we've been able to tithe, pay our bills and still have money for wants. We weren't even giving into wants before January! But I can't tell you how giving from the top - immediately writing out a tithe before anything else - how hard that was (still is). Ultimately we had to admit to ourselves, "If we can trust God with our salvation - our very lives - can we not trust him with 10% of our money?" In that perspective we feel foolish and we wholeheartedly give.

But. God knew that he didn't have our hearts in these two areas. So he's growing us here. No where in scripture does it talk about prosperity (financial or not) being what God wants for us. Except prosperity in knowing him. In fact, the New Testament speaks over and over about how we must run the race and not give up. Perseverance. If God made everything easy for us, why would we ever need to come to Him?

I can't answer your question about bc, Aubrey. And people are right - there's going to be answers, even Biblical answers, that will prove both sides. But I do know that no matter what, God wants your heart. So if that means giving up bc for now to do that, then that's what I would do.

With much, much understanding,
Janna

I just wanted to say thanks. Your post was encouraging. I know what you mean--if we can trust him w/ our salvation, what is our $ or our bc?

And that's when I realize, I don't *really* trust him w/ even my salvation as much as I think I do. I realize that I see much of that stuff as very abstract most of the time, until it comes & hits me in my personal life.

And he does seem to point at things in our lives that he wants, & he's usually gracious enough to do it one thing at a time.

It's just...there are other things I'm sure I'd rather give him right now. I've got a lovely pasta set in the trunk of my car, for ex.

Kendra

02-24-2008, 10:37 PM

I know, but that's just the thing. I'm fine with trusting him if his plan is 4-5 dc. Beyond that, I'm not fine w/ trusting.

So I guess that's really not trusting at all, is it?

Funny, in an "I'm human" kinda way ;) And we are. We joke that had we known at the altar that God would give us eight, we would have run from that chapel :D Like you, I couldn't imagine having more than 4. But I didn't have all seven at once, and like you said, they aren't seven under seven. When the seventh was born, the oldest was just turning 14. He does a bunch of computer stuff for me. He mows the lawn (2 acres). He runs laundry. He organizes and teaches the Hands and Hearts projects on Fridays. And that's just him!

Both the almost-15yo and almost 13yo are CPR certified. The 13yo is a junior lifeguard. The 10yo absolutely loves sharing a room with the 1yo, and consequently takes care of him a lot. Without me mandating it. The 8yo changes diapers (except the poopy ones ;)) and begs to take the baby from the 10yo. She makes cookies for church. The 6yo empties the dishwasher.

So... do you see how different my life is than yours right now? And do you see how raising seven or more can be doable? God will equip you if He blesses you with more, but you are in a very difficult, labor-intensive-for-mom time right now. We know six couples who had vasectomies when the going was tough, and all six have had reversals after four or more years went by because they realized their decisions were made in the toughest time. Sadly, only two have had babies post-reversal and the others are deeply sorry they made a permanent decision.

wide eyes & laughter

02-24-2008, 11:32 PM

...some people have, well, made it into a doctrine. (Btw, I did not read any posts except Aubrey's initial post.... I simply can't. The subject matter is hurtful to me, and something I can't understand anyway. So I stay away for the most part.)

Human nature is such that we all seem to want a place to "hang our hats". We want it all laid out in front of us, a nicely wrapped pkg; we want the answers. We look for others who have "the answers" and we "congregate" w/them. Kinda like Hans Andersen's fairy tale: The Emperor's New Clothes. We all say that we "see" the same thing, I guess, b/c it's easier that way rather than "going it alone". But faith dictates: walk with Jesus, then you'll know what to do. Turn right? Left? Looking to Him alone, we'll know.

Dear Aubrey, if God is calling you away from bc and wanting to open you & your dh to more giftings and, after seeking Him and sort of "wrestling together with the Lord" this is the course you settle on, then blessings. God will also give you all you need care for your young.

I once heard someone of this doctrine say, "...a big family is a picture of faith to the world..." No, it's not. It is often a picture of self-righteousness and hurtful ways. And I think this is true of any human made doctrine.

We can't understand it all, so we grab hold of certain scriptures and feign understanding, call it a doctrine, voila. The Bible says, "now we know in part, then we shall know in full, as we are fully known" (paraphrase!). We are not meant to know it all.... "All" is to be revealed, one day. Not now.

I guess all I'm asking you to consider is: steer clear of the doctrine, draw near to Christ. So He can give you the desires of your heart.

Lastly, I do not mean to offend anyone. Somehow I couldn't let this post pass without throwing in my 2 cents. Hits too close to home, since I was leaning toward that camp myself only a few years ago. I still feel the bruise in my heart....

Blessings.

Tap, tap, tap

02-24-2008, 11:46 PM

We have a son who was conceived on BCP. He is a darling person and I can't imagine that God doesn't have a plan for him.

The timing seemed inconvenient and absolutely changed everything I planned for my life. But looking back, we know there was a plan set forth.

We had our dd 4 years later and she is blessing too.

We had a V and ablation preformed in the next two years and since neither of us could have children again, we figured we were very done.

We are now raising a 15mth old, great niece. If we had a houseful of children we would not have taken her in. She and her mom need a little extra time and I have it to give because of our decisions.

We joke that we thought WE were in control of our family number but we were set straight quickly!

I think that families who limit the number of children they have, are just and biblical in doing so, but (!) those who open themselves up to a "quiverfull" get all those extra blessings as rewards. God will not let a simple thing like birth control stop a pregnacy that he destines! :0)

If you need a break for a year or two, take one, and know that you will not prevent any little soul that God wants brought to Earth. Just ask my son :)

nestof3

02-25-2008, 12:21 AM

Everyone we meet with in home church is quiverfull. I have read lots of magazine articles and books on the subject, but am just not fully persuaded that God controls the womb (neither is my husband). To me, it is still a natural process just like it is for chickens and cats.

What I really don't understand is that they are all comfortable saying it's God's will whether the baby miscarry or be born, but all but one family depend on doctors to deliver "just in case." It seems if it were God's will, th eend result would be his will as well.

The other problem I have is that half of these families continue to have more children eventhough they cannot afford the ones they have. Between Medicaid, Famis, and WIC -- it just makes no sense to me to continue to increase the tax burden on others all the while saying "God is providing."

I am, despite what I've mentioned, fully supportive of families having many children. I don't think you're crazy for having these questions, but it's really something that will have to come through your husband. Keep praying about it. We are at a point with only three children of feeling that's all we can adequately care for. My husband is also turning 49 this year. We do talk of having another at times as well.

Suzanne in ABQ

02-25-2008, 12:31 AM

I don't have any answers for you, I just know that I, myself, spend way too much time "in my head" when I'm pregnant. Little things go round and round in my head, and get all blown up into huge issues that wouldn't bother me hardly at all in my non-pregnant state. I'm not saying this isn't a huge issue for you, only that I wouldn't make any permanent decisions about it while you are still pregnant. Enjoy your little ones, and your pregnancy.

Scarlett

02-25-2008, 01:02 AM

Wow. I can't believe the traffic on this thread while I've been away all day.

I would say to you that if your issues and concerns are what is scriptural and Biblical than you need to research that yourself and see what God Requires of You.

No where in scripture do I find a command against preventing conception. So if there is no command against it, and your bc method is not post conception, then it basically boils down to the personal preference of you and your dh. IOW, YOU two have to take responsibility for this decision either way. Sort of like buying a house. No prohibition against buying a house, but you might be sorry if you spend too much and buy too big of a house.

CLHCO

02-25-2008, 02:00 AM

Eliana

02-25-2008, 03:20 AM

Try flipping the issues around, and see how you react...

(***Note: the following is *not* my personal position, which is, I think irrelevant given that it comes from a very different religious/spiritual framework, but they are questions I think can be useful for exploring this issue.***)

Couldn't you say that by having "unprotected" intimacy you are relying on G-d to give you a miracle if you are not ready for another child?

Do you believe that leaving it all to G-d is a responsible choice, that you are putting in the effort G-d wants you to to take responsibility for your life, to the best of your understanding and abilities? Do you take that approach with your finances? With your health? (Would it be right to get a flu shot? Would that be interfering with G-d's plan if you are supposed to get the flu, for whatever reason?) With your children's safety? (Leave little ones alone a public park for hours and leave it to G-d to take care of them?)

Where do you see the line between taking proper responsibility and making conscious choices (while recognizing that the results are all still in G-d's hands) and usurping G-d's role? Or, the other way round, between trusting G-d and avoiding our own obligation to make informed choices as best we can?

Do you believe that bc can stop a pregnancy G-d intended? If it can't then how could bc be thwarting G-d's will, or is it matter of the intentions one brings to it?

I think you are fabulous for hearing the uncertainties in your heart and exploring them - that is one way we can grow spiritually, but I encourage you to seek out guidance from a religious/spiritual leader you trust... often it helps to have that lest we let ourselves avoid challenges we know are right or, equally dangerous, lest we impose unnecessary or inappropriate stringencies on ourselves.

This is a bittersweet discussion for me, I have been being challenged these last several years to trust from the opposite end of the spectrum - another pregnancy could kill me at this point and yet we so desperately long for more children. Kol b'yidei Shamayim (it is all in the hands of Heaven).

Eliana

mamakven

02-25-2008, 03:31 AM

Beautifully said! That puts it all into perspective! What a great thread, BTW, and some very thought-provoking replies from believers and non-believers alike! I just love this board for it's wisdom and different points of view...I learn so much:D

i'm just popping in here quick, and am only on page 2 of 7!! but i saw this and havince once felt this way myself had to argue against it...

SURE we can't prevent God from creating life within us, this is exactly what happened with my #4, there was NO time when we could have concieved her, yet we did. This was the turning point for us when we became QF convicted. because it seems to me that the issue is NOT just in whether a life that was meant to be can be born, but what is our heart in it, kwim? like are we cheerfully obeying or are we rebellious against God. Also it almost seems like testing God to say that if he really wanted us to have a child, he'd work against the birth control. That may be, but that doesn't show a submissive and obedient spirit, and it also doesn't prevent us from the natural consequences that come from being disobedient (like not having that particular child who may have been a huge blessing to us)

Now, i'm just offering another perspective, i'm NOT claiming to have all the answers, not by a longshot. We are still searching too. but this is the opinion i'm leaning toward personally. Dh is way more laid back about the whole thing, he can't see why i'm stressing out about it, LOL!! i look forward to reading everyone's discussion PAST page 2 as i get some free time!!

mom25cuties

02-25-2008, 03:46 AM

You have a great question and I had once shared the same concern before turning our family size over to Him. I have used bc in the past also. Now in hind sight, I believe that I was not allowing God to control our family size because of man and the world's opinion of how many children were right for us. God only knows that. He knows more about me than I knew of myself which is why he has blessed me to have more dc. I also believe he has a wonderful sense of humor in doing this. LOL I believe that if God wanted us to use bc then He would have said be fruitful and multiply according to your needs but I don't recall that part in the Bible. LOL! We are to be fruitful and multiply and He also said that children are a blessing from the Lord and blessed are they who have a quiverful. How can we withhold God's blessings for us? Why do we want to control His hand or place restrictions on our wombs because of our wills? We are to do according to His will so is controlling your family size in His will? It's a matter of faith. Believe and trust that God knows exactly how many children HE wants to bless you with and He knows what you are capable of handling. Being a mother is a ministry. He will equip and enable you to do that which He has called for you to do.

Quiver0f10

02-25-2008, 09:19 AM

I know, but that's just the thing. I'm fine with trusting him if his plan is 4-5 dc. Beyond that, I'm not fine w/ trusting.

So I guess that's really not trusting at all, is it?

The thing is you don't need to worry about 10-12 kids NOW. Enjoy your pregnancy and worry about the next baby then.

Pencil Pusher

02-25-2008, 09:29 AM

Do you believe that leaving it all to G-d is a responsible choice, that you are putting in the effort G-d wants you to to take responsibility for your life, to the best of your understanding and abilities? Do you take that approach with your finances? With your health? (Would it be right to get a flu shot? Would that be interfering with G-d's plan if you are supposed to get the flu, for whatever reason?) With your children's safety? (Leave little ones alone a public park for hours and leave it to G-d to take care of them?)

I think this is a very good comparison for your situation, since there's so much at risk w/ your pg's.

Beyond situations like that, though, I'm not sure it's fair to compare preventing birth to preventing the flu/ abandoning your dc at the park. I see your point, about responsibility, & that is one of the points I'm struggling w/--I guess I'm just disputing the particular comparisons you chose.

Which is rather nit-picky of me, except that I can't come up w/ a comparison that works & still supports bc, kwim? Maybe like preventing a marriage between 2 people who are right for ea other, but the timing's wrong? Still, it comes out weird.

Do you believe that bc can stop a pregnancy G-d intended? If it can't then how could bc be thwarting G-d's will, or is it matter of the intentions one brings to it?

I guess I think it's an obedience thing. I mean, if bc can't stop God, people say, then why not use it? Otoh, if it can't stop God, why use it?

It reminds me of people in the Bible who refused to bow to false gods. When I was a kid, I used to think they would have been smarter to just make a show of doing it--I mean, if they're not bowing in their hearts, what difference does it make? That way, they don't get fed to the lions, stuck in the furnace, etc.

But it does make a difference, for reasons I still can't completely understand. When I use bc, am I bowing to my own preferences w/ regard to children? And if so, is that a problem? There are some areas that I believe we should pray first & others where we kind-of do what we want unless God intervenes. Getting dressed is the latter; unplugging someone from life support might be an extreme ex. of the former. Which of these is bc?

This is a bittersweet discussion for me, I have been being challenged these last several years to trust from the opposite end of the spectrum - another pregnancy could kill me at this point and yet we so desperately long for more children. Kol b'yidei Shamayim (it is all in the hands of Heaven).

Thank you so much for sharing. I sincerely hope your longing is fulfilled w/out complication. I'm sorry to be so concerned about my own preferences instead of grateful to have a body & children who allow these questions to be asked.

Quiver0f10

02-25-2008, 09:31 AM

Funny, in an "I'm human" kinda way ;) And we are. We joke that had we known at the altar that God would give us eight, we would have run from that chapel :D Like you, I couldn't imagine having more than 4. But I didn't have all seven at once, and like you said, they aren't seven under seven. When the seventh was born, the oldest was just turning 14. He does a bunch of computer stuff for me. He mows the lawn (2 acres). He runs laundry. He organizes and teaches the Hands and Hearts projects on Fridays. And that's just him!

Both the almost-15yo and almost 13yo are CPR certified. The 13yo is a junior lifeguard. The 10yo absolutely loves sharing a room with the 1yo, and consequently takes care of him a lot. Without me mandating it. The 8yo changes diapers (except the poopy ones ;)) and begs to take the baby from the 10yo. She makes cookies for church. The 6yo empties the dishwasher.

So... do you see how different my life is than yours right now? And do you see how raising seven or more can be doable? God will equip you if He blesses you with more, but you are in a very difficult, labor-intensive-for-mom time right now. We know six couples who had vasectomies when the going was tough, and all six have had reversals after four or more years went by because they realized their decisions were made in the toughest time. Sadly, only two have had babies post-reversal and the others are deeply sorry they made a permanent decision.

I remember when I had my 4th and my oldest was 4-1/2 and life was very hectic. You are in a season that is very hard, but it passes so quickly! Like Kenda, my older children are a huge help to me. No, they aren't servants, but we work as a family. I have wondered at times if it was too much for my oldest or too hard on her, but just recently she asked me when we were going to have another baby. She is looking forward to another sibling, so it couldn't have been that bad *grin*

SnowWhite

02-25-2008, 09:33 AM

Do we not walk close enough to God for Him to reveal His will to us?

I agree with the poster who said that to have unprotected intercourse without protection is expecting God to perform a miracle if it's not His will for us to conceive at that time. I believe conception is a natural law put in place by God. Since I too believe preventing is not prohibited by scripture, I believe God is asking us to walk close enough to Him to hear His voice in determining when and whether to use it.

Audrey, if God is speaking to you and your husband and asking you to bear more children, I believe He will give you both the desire and the strength to bear them. If He does not give you that desire, I believe feeling called to bear more children without the desire and strength to bear them must be coming from another source... perhaps your own questioning of your closeness to Him or your own trust in Him.

This is not meant to be a slam against those who practice quiverfull lifestyles, but a call to all of us to walk so close to Him that we can feel His hand and hear His voice.

Staci in MO

02-25-2008, 10:09 AM

It's apparent that you and your dh are earnestly seeking God's will for your life, and I think it's wonderful how you are so open to His will and trusting Him.

As for the pre-existence of souls, there is no Biblical support for this view. In Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology it says:

There is one other popular view called Pre-existentianism, namely, that the souls of people exist in heaven long before their bodies are conceived in the wombs of their mothers, and that God then brings the soul to earth to be joined with the baby's body as he or she grows in the womb. But this veiw is not held by either Roman Catholic or Protestant theologians, and is dangerously akin to ideas of reincarnation found in Eastern religions. Moreover, there is no support for this view in Scripture. Before we were conceived in the wombs of our mothers, we simply did not exist. We were not. Of course, God looked forward into the future and knew that we would exist, but that is far removed from saying that we actually did exist at some previous time.

I also seem to sense from your posts that you are worried that you will somehow accidentally miss God's will for you life. I don't believe that any Christian who is so sincerely submitting her life to God as you seem to be is ever going to miss God's will. Psalm 37:4, Romans 8:28, Jeremiah 29:13, Proverbs 16:9 are just a few verses that I can find that address that.

As to whether God's will can ever be thwarted, I personally believe that all things fall under God's sovereignty. Ephesians 1:11 states that He "works all things according to the counsel of his will." But, since theologians have been debating this idea for centuries, I don't presume to clear up the argument in this post. :) The Old Testament is full of instances where God used all circumstances to accomplish His purposes. Some New Testament verses that allude to this are Acts 4:26-28, Acts 17:26, and Romans 9:19-24. Now, this is just my opinion, but I don't think, based on these Scriptures, that you will be able to prevent the birth of children that God wanted.

God bless you and your family.

Jami

02-25-2008, 10:39 AM

I also seem to sense from your posts that you are worried that you will somehow accidentally miss God's will for you life. I don't believe that any Christian who is so sincerely submitting her life to God as you seem to be is ever going to miss God's will. Psalm 37:4, Romans 8:28, Jeremiah 29:13, Proverbs 16:9 are just a few verses that I can find that address that.

As to whether God's will can ever be thwarted, I personally believe that all things fall under God's sovereignty. Ephesians 1:11 states that He "works all things according to the counsel of his will." But, since theologians have been debating this idea for centuries, I don't presume to clear up the argument in this post. :) The Old Testament is full of instances where God used all circumstances to accomplish His purposes. Some New Testament verses that allude to this are Acts 4:26-28, Acts 17:26, and Romans 9:19-24. Now, this is just my opinion, but I don't think, based on these Scriptures, that you will be able to prevent the birth of children that God wanted.

Excellent post, Staci. As long as a person is not disobeying God's revealed moral will (what the Bible clearly forbids or commands), then all other areas of our life fall under areas of freedom trusting that under his Sovereign will he will accomplish his purposes and His plan will be what *is*. Nothing happens outside of God's plans and purposes, or he would not be God. Decision making areas like where to live, where to attend school, spacing and limiting of children (as long as moral laws against taking a life are not crossed and general "welcoming" of children commands are obeyed) fall under areas where we have freedom. Though there are certainly Biblical principles that we need to bring to bear on making any decision: prayer, seeking wise council from spiritual mentors and those who know us well, considering our gifts and talents and how to best invest those, financial resources (does a man build a house without first considering the cost to make sure he can *finish* the work he begins?).

I mentioned it earlier, but Gary Friesen's book, "Decision Making and the Will of God" is the absolute best treatment of this sort of "individual will" that some believe falls between God's moral and sovereign will and I just do not see evidence for it in the Bible.

Jami

6packofun

02-25-2008, 11:46 AM

so forgive me if I've repeated thoughts or ideas here. :)

I think that an important question to ask before subscribing to the Quiverfull lifestyle is, "What about prayer?" and "Do I serve a God who answers my prayers about what concerns me and my family?" "Can God reveal to me the size of our family, either now or down the road, rather than keeping us guessing in order to teach us trust?"

Truly, if we believe that God knows how many children we will have, do we believe that He will then keep us waiting without a clear answer about how many that is? Even one at a time as we go?

I believe that the true "Quiverfull" mindset is one that does not exclude prayer with the utmost belief that God can and does answer specifically about our family size. What is the difference between 2 couples, both for whom God has planned, say, 8 children and the 2 choices they could make:

Couple A decides that rather than (or maybe in addition to?) pray about both their family size AND the timing of children, that they will leave it up to God and be surprised. They won't put their desires into it even though God has made it clear that He cares a great deal about them as long as they are aligned with His will. Do they pray after baby #1 to see if and when God will allow or bless them with another or do they forgeo the expectation that He could and would answer them specifically because the greater lesson for them is trust, one which another couple may not need to learn in this way? And, they end up with 8 babies as God planned beforehand. :)

Couple B decides that they also want as many children as God has planned for them, but also know that there is a good chance that in the way God has created a woman's body--and all women differently--that those babies could be spaced very close together. Because they feel God cares for the mom's well-being and ALL of their life circumstances in creating this family, AND they believe that the wife being in optimal health before subsequent pregnancies is a way to honor that desire for more children, care for God's temple (her body) and those future children... AND they believe that God will give them an answer about the perfect, planned size for that family, they choose to use a method of prevention in between pregnancies. And they choose that method prayerfully, open to when it should or should not be used, knowing that God could work around any stubborness or lack of prayer/seeking His will and bless them at any time, too. They pray after each baby and finally feel peace after baby number 8 that their family is complete. 8 babies, just as God planned. :)

For me, quiverfull as it is commonly explained, is an all or nothing mindset that cannegate the power of prayer and the many, many examples of God's specific answers AND his care for wives and mothers. It seems to imply that God actually does not have a finite number of children for us, or that timing is the more important issue than number, and that His sovereignty does not work through the natural laws that He lovingly put into place to create life and keep our world together. LOL ;) It also seems to imply that this is the Biblically correct way to grow a family when it really is a personal conviction based on that couple's relationship with God and what He wants to teach them. I'm not saying that anyone here is being judgmental about this, but we all know that certain statements about how WE have chosen to follow the Lord can, by default, sound like a condemnation of any other path.

I'm particularly worried about how moms who suffer post-partum depression or other physical ailments or stresses deal with what seems like a choice between the guilt of feeling that they are less than righteous enough or not trusting God enough in the growing of their family if they care about their own health or the timing of children...or the severe health issues they will most likely face if they get pregnant right away after an extremely difficult previous time. If the Bible really supports this quiverfull idea, then it would logically mention any circumstances where it would be OK to give the mother's body a rest (to take care of her body, His temple? to best prepare for another child?). But it doesn't, and so it's all or nothing.

The quibble is in the details, don't you think? Is it the TIMING or spacing that you really need to give up to Him? Or is it the daily seeking of His will in expectation that He is sovereign and yet directs us? We cannot thwart His will and yet I believe He can bend it at His delight for OUR cares and desires because He loves us, so long as those desires are not an obstacle to His ultimate will for us.

Joanne

02-25-2008, 12:25 PM

Thoughts, opinions and experience relating to the topic in general ratther than the specific post:

The community, dogma and rhetoric that I've observed often grows around "quiverful" minded people concerns me. I find a lot of it to be *extra*Biblical, judgemental, lacking reason and common sense. I've also observed in staunchly quiverful families a greater percentage of legalism.

I do believe that God can and does individually direct couples to allow conception. I don't believe, however, that God designs each conception (my understanding of God doesn't allow for Him to design crack babies) but I believe God's biology works.

I have issues with the quiverful thinking that asserts it's God's Design for everyone. Here's why:

1) God has given us natural fertility signals. If He did not intend for us to use them (for conception or avoiding it), it seems to me he could have left cervical mucous and other signs out of His design.

2) Quiverful families often adopt "natural" ideas inconsistently. Conception is natural. But close spacing of children due to formula feeding is not. Often the parenting involved in quiverful family hastens conception; that is not accepting God's will; it's the consequence of human design (I'm thinking here of lack of skin to skin contact with breastfeeding and co-sleeping, allowing cue feeding at night, etc).

3) We live in a fallen world with monumental consequences. God's biology is compromised by the progressive changes of falling short of the mark.

4) We fail, as a culture and even within Christian circles, to teach families how to happily live with children.

To the OP:

You have several small children and another on the way. Enjoy your family.

Quiver0f10

02-25-2008, 12:32 PM

2) Quiverful families often adopt "natural" ideas inconsistently. Conception is natural. But close spacing of children due to formula feeding is not. Often the parenting involved in quiverful family hastens conception; that is not accepting God's will; it's the consequence of human design (I'm thinking here of lack of skin to skin contact with breastfeeding and co-sleeping, allowing cue feeding at night, etc).

I am not feeling well and my mind is fuzzy so I apologise if I read this wrong, but are you saying quiverfull families tend to formular feed and thus have babies closer together? Because, I for one, have breastfed all 10 of our babies and most "qf" people I know breastfeed too. We also co-sleep and feed on demand. I personally don't know too many people who choose formular unless it's a medical reason they can't breast feed. I also know many, many qf familes so this statement puzzles me. Again, I apologise if I misread this one.

Joanne

02-25-2008, 12:35 PM

I am not feeling well and my mind is fuzzy so I apologise if I read this wrong, but are you saying quiverfull families tend to formular feed and thus have babies closer together? Because, I for one, have breastfed all 10 of our babies and most "qf" people I know breastfeed too. We also co-sleep and feed on demand. I don't know too many people who choose formular unless it's a medical reason they can't breast feed. I also know many, many qf familes so this statement puzzles me. Again, I apologize if I misread this one.

I can't say how many formula feed vs. breastfeed. I can say that I have observed a lot of qf families who embrace a qf idealogy but make parenting choices that accelerate fertility. (Both as breastfeeding and formula feeding).

mamakven

02-25-2008, 12:41 PM

The thing is you don't need to worry about 10-12 kids NOW. Enjoy your pregnancy and worry about the next baby then.

YES!! absolutely!! you have NO idea how much your feelings and circumstances will change as time goes on. I've found this to be true anyway!

Quiver0f10

02-25-2008, 12:46 PM

I can't say how many formula feed vs. breastfeed. I can say that I have observed a lot of qf families who embrace a qf idealogy but make parenting choices that accelerate fertility. (Both as breastfeeding and formula feeding).

We must run in different circles becuse I don't see this. However, I personally believe, that each baby is a direct gift from God. He opens and closes the womb. So, formular or breast, if I got pregnant, then it's God will for me at that time. I know not everyone believes this way and I don't expect them to.

HomeOnTheRanch

02-25-2008, 01:30 PM

I never really considered myself in the "quiverfull" camp, but I've come around to the feeling that is more of a state of mind than a number.

Six months after our 4th child was born (5th preg., 1 mc), several medical issues reared up for me. My doc recommended that I seriously consider not having any more children. At that point, DH and I agreed. I was overwhelmed dealing with myself and my 4 kids. Neither one of us was inclined to do anything permanent so the past six years have been a combination of NFP & barrier. Sort of. There have been plenty of opportunities for "error." If God had wanted us to have another sooner, He certainly could have worked it out without taking the blame ;). I don't believe it would have been healthy for our family, though.

In the past few years my medical issues have stabilized, we've worked out issues with our children, and we decided that another child, or two, or three, might not be such a bad idea. I got medical clearance and here we are a few months later expecting another (very much prayed for) baby. My prayers weren't "please, please, please let me have another baby." We weren't even sure if another was possible/advisable with my medical challenges. It was more of a "we're ready if You are" type of prayer.

I don't think this was us telling God, but more of God telling us to tell Him. KWIM?

I think God gave us the signs/ability for NFP (and to some extent other BC) for a reason. Be open to His leading, Aubrey, whatever that may be.

nancypants

02-25-2008, 01:32 PM

I just want to be sure it's Him! Haha! (Like stinky belly buttons. shhh.):)

Aubrey, read the full story of Gideon in Judges 6-7, and you will find that you are not alone. Indeed, asking questions and making sure what you are feeling is something that God is laying on your heart as opposed to just emotions.

God allowed Gideon to ask questions. He gave him proof. And if you ask me, when God is speaking directly to you in the fashion that he did with Gideon it would seem you have a lot less reason to doubt, especially after he proved himself more than once. And yet Gideon kept asking for confirmation and God continued giving it. He did not expect Gideon to go blindly.

Same was true for Moses. He asked God for proof. God gave him several "proofs" and Moses still quaked and stumbled (I would too in his sandals! LOL)

Susan in TX

02-25-2008, 04:26 PM

As an interested bystander (and maybe it can help Aubrey too), can anyone address this particular issue? How is using BC to prevent pregnancy different from using medical treatment to prevent death?

Death is a negative thing to be avoided. Christians believe that death came into the world as a result of sin. It is a bad thing and not God's best, but a consequence of the fall.

Life, however, is a positive thing. It is GOOD. Having children is a good thing, not something that is bad that should be avoided. ( Now, I realise that that is not how our society sees children today.) In the Bible God says children are a blessing NOT a curse. (And it doesn't say that only the first two are a blessing...and only if they were planned etc.) Life is a positive, good thing. Why would you want to prevent it.

Susan in TX

Joanne

02-25-2008, 04:32 PM

Life, however, is a positive thing. It is GOOD. Having children is a good thing, not something that is bad that should be avoided. ( Now, I realise that that is not how our society sees children today.) In the Bible God says children are a blessing NOT a curse. (And it doesn't say that only the first two are a blessing...and only if they were planned etc.) Life is a positive, good thing. Why would you want to prevent it.

True. But it also doesn't say "more is better".

The "quiverful" verse, IMO, is meant to be applied to however many you HAVE - not to suggest that more is better.

Susan in TX

02-25-2008, 04:35 PM

No denying that here! This isn't an easy path. Early on when I mentioned to my mom that we were leaning this way she said, "I'm just afraid you're jumping on a bandwagon."

Let me tell you-- if I were to jump on a bandwagon, this would not be it. The lay-by-the-pool-drinking-pina-coladas bandwagon? THAT'S the bandwagon I want to be on :D

But... would I put any of them back? Would I trade any one of our seven? Not a chance. I am so, so thankful God called us to this. And we have no regrets. We feel we've been faithful, and that's what we want most.

As a Mom of 8 with another on the way I'd just like to second this. It's not easy but anything worth having comes at a price. No pain, no gain. That's how I see it. And my kids are worth more to me than any material things that we might have sacrificed in order to be able to have 8 kids.

Susan in TX

Joanne

02-25-2008, 04:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joanne
I can't say how many formula feed vs. breastfeed. I can say that I have observed a lot of qf families who embrace a qf idealogy but make parenting choices that accelerate fertility. (Both as breastfeeding and formula feeding).

We must run in different circles becuse I don't see this. However, I personally believe, that each baby is a direct gift from God. He opens and closes the womb. So, formular or breast, if I got pregnant, then it's God will for me at that time. I know not everyone believes this way and I don't expect them to.

Jean,

It's refreshing to read that you don't expect everyone to agree.

I *don't* believe God designs each conception (as I stated earlier, my God won't create crack babies) but I do believe His biology works.

What I was talking about in my post about the community I've observed around QF minded people is this......

Many claim "God's will" is to be open to creating life. But the style of family life and parenting they embrace is counter to what *I* see as God's design for natural spacing of children. (And I also believe our fallen world accelerates fertility in some ways and prevents/stalls it in others). For example, many qf families embrace an early infant style that includes parent imposed schedules, even for breastfed babies. This limits the naturally occuring hormones that delay menstruation/fertility. The same is true for a lack of co-sleeping. The less skin to skin contact and night access to Mom, the quicker fertility returns.

IMO, it's a bit hypocritical to claim "God's timing" while making choices that accelerate conception.

Kinsa

02-25-2008, 04:45 PM

Jean,

It's refreshing to read that you don't expect everyone to agree.

I *don't* believe God designs each conception (as I stated earlier, my God won't create crack babies) but I do believe His biology works.

What I was talking about in my post about the community I've observed around QF minded people is this......

Many claim "God's will" is to be open to creating life. But the style of family life and parenting they embrace is counter to what *I* see as God's design for natural spacing of children. (And I also believe our fallen world accelerates fertility in some ways and prevents/stalls it in others). For example, many qf families embrace an early infant style that includes parent imposed schedules, even for breastfed babies. This limits the naturally occuring hormones that delay menstruation/fertility. The same is true for a lack of co-sleeping. The less skin to skin contact and night access to Mom, the quicker fertility returns.

IMO, it's a bit hypocritical to claim "God's timing" while making choices that accelerate conception.

Okay, wow - I was going to totally stay out of this conversation... but you have brought up a pet peeve of mine.

I have known many QF families whose goal seems NOT to do the will of God, but to pump out as many babies as they can as fast as they can. They do not breastfeed at all. They actually do things on purpose (like herbal supplements and avoiding skin-to-sking contact with baby, etc.) to fast-forward their fertility as quickly as possible. IMO, if you are going to practice God's natural plan, then you should either do it fully, or not at all.

Also, (and I haven't read all the replies, so forgive me if I'm repeating...)

QF in its true sense doesn't necessarily mean you will end up with tons of kids. I have also known many families who are QF and who are only-child families, or only two children, etc. (and they are nearing the end of their child-bearing years). QF means letting go and letting God, and He could give you many, or few.

For the record, we are QF.

OnTheBrink

02-25-2008, 05:03 PM

I've not read the preceeding 9ish pages, but I wanted to comment on the souls in heaven concept.

We (humans) see time in one way: linearly. God, being omniscient and omnipresent, can see time in all directions, so to speak. He doesn't move back and forth in time, the way they did on Quantum Leap. All "time" is in His hands and he can see all time at once. SO, while I do believe He knew us before birth, I also believe that we're created at conception and by Him and that He knew us before, during and after our earthly lives, due to His ability to see time non-linearly.

I've not seen anywhere in scripture that there is a holding area for unborn souls. So, if that's been worrying you--that by not having more children you're somehow losing out on or messing up God's plan for your children, I think you can rest assured. :) HE knows how many you'll have, He knows your burdens and He know right now you're concerned with it.

Anyway, if this is a repeat of something previously said, sorry. I just need to put the baby down for a nap and get dd back to work on her studies, so I didn't read the whole thread. :)

Cadam

02-25-2008, 05:51 PM

Aubrey,

as another 28 yo who struggles with this I feel your pain. One argument I have heard against Quiver-full mindset is that God has given us the tools and intelligence to make these choices for ourselves. That kind of thing. I am not sure I really buy that but this is how things are for us....

I know that from my track record I could have a baby yearly. God could choose to change that but my fertility fully returns less than 6 weeks after giving birth so if we did nothing (we do a modified NFP/ Barrier thing) I would be constantly pregnant and nursing. My pregnancies are nasty and after the first one it took my dh 4 years to feel like he was up for another one. I also have 2 SN kids and the disorders they have are based in genetics so there is a good chance of having more very challenging SN's kids.

In the end it comes down to the fact that my dh is not comfortable with me being constantly pregnant or that he would have the emotional and financial resources to raise many more children. He also does not want me to be crazy and I am not exaggerating. I always dreamed of a houseful but dh and I are in this together and big decisions take 2 yeses and one no. We will revisit the topic before I am 30 but dh is fond of reminding me that dd 1 is as much work as 3 children so as far as he is concerned we have 5 kids! I can't go against him in something this important and I have to trust God that if he wants to change dh's mind he can figure out how - without me.

Stop stressing and chat with your dh. He is a good guy and a wise godly man. Also remember that you are hyped up on preg. hormones and things will seem calmer a year from now.

dangermom

02-25-2008, 05:54 PM

Cadam

02-25-2008, 05:59 PM

Jean,

For example, many qf families embrace an early infant style that includes parent imposed schedules, even for breastfed babies. This limits the naturally occuring hormones that delay menstruation/fertility. The same is true for a lack of co-sleeping. The less skin to skin contact and night access to Mom, the quicker fertility returns.

IMO, it's a bit hypocritical to claim "God's timing" while making choices that accelerate conception.

Just as long as you don't think that everyone who has an early return of fertility must not be nursing, sleeping with baby exc. I basically wear my babies all the time , nurse them when hungry, all that and my fertility returns fully in less than 6 weeks. Believe me I tried very hard to put off fertility! I have another friend with the same issue. Each of us is an individual. It is what it is.

Wendy

02-25-2008, 06:00 PM

Hi Aubrey: I only have a minute, but I wanted to let you know that there is a wonderful website called momys.com (http://momy.com) that has lots of info on being quiverful. I didn't read enough to "get" whether you have a religious affiliation, so just FYI, momys is a Christian website. If you are Christian, it is a gold mine of information and support, both for educational purposes as well as just general encouragement, home management tips, pregnancy/childbirth, and much more. I'm whitehurst5 on there if you decide to join. Hope to see you there.

Quiver0f10

02-25-2008, 06:05 PM

Pencil Pusher

02-25-2008, 06:06 PM

Pencil Pusher

02-25-2008, 06:08 PM

Just as long as you don't think that everyone who has an early return of fertility must not be nursing, sleeping with baby exc. I basically wear my babies all the time , nurse them when hungry, all that and my fertility returns fully in less than 6 weeks. Believe me I tried very hard to put off fertility! I have another friend with the same issue. Each of us is an individual. It is what it is.

I'm the same way. I think it must somehow be related to short cycles, but my fertility has returned sooner w/ ea baby. After #3 it was so soon, I wasn't even sure that's what it was. Talk about bummed.

Pencil Pusher

02-25-2008, 06:09 PM

Here is a good site and I recommend the book listed on this site " A Full Quiver" for information on the concept. http://www.quiverfull.com/

Jean,

Reading this website was what caused me to start this thread. I mean, I'd been thinking about it anyway w/out knowing there was a term for it, then found this site.

But I couldn't find much information there. There were links to news articles on people w/ big families & links to good books to read (which I wish my library had!), etc.

There didn't seem to be a lot actually *there.* Did I miss the good part somehow?

Thanks!

Pencil Pusher

02-25-2008, 06:11 PM

Hi Aubrey: I only have a minute, but I wanted to let you know that there is a wonderful website called momys.com (http://momy.com) that has lots of info on being quiverful.

Yep, my neighbor likes to visit there. I didn't realize it was specifically qf; I'll have to look again.

Thanks!

Oh, & yeah, I'm a Christian. Dh is in seminary right now. Which is part of what would make it a lot easier to think about this later, when our lives are a little more... stable.

Scarlett

02-25-2008, 06:12 PM

One argument I have heard against Quiver-full mindset is that God has given us the tools and intelligence to make these choices for ourselves.

This is the thought I've intended to post several times as I've read this thread. It blows my mind that people actually believe it is wrong to slow down or stop on the baby making. God gave the command to 'multiply' to the first humans. The earth was empty of people! That is why it had to be populated. Later the Nation of Israel needed to increase in size as well. However, we are not in that time period. Yes, every child is indeed a blessing from God, but not all circumstances are a blessing for every child. Or mother. I think of poor Andrea Yates (and some days I dont' think she deserves sympathy, but some days I do). I think of the worthless families out there having child after child that they are not caring for. Is that God's will? Not the God I know.

He gave us a brain. He gave us abilities. As long as we are not breaking one of his laws, we are free to make personal decisions for ourselves and the good of our family. Yes, God's Will WILL be done. That however, does not negate the free will he gave us to decide some things for ourselves.

Now back to the size of families. I have nothing against large families. I'm not one of those 'oh those poor kids, they can't possibly get the attention they need.' I think love multiplies with each child. My mother came from a large family and she did not resent it even though she was the oldest. I think any couple should be able to determine how many children they bring into this world. Naturally, they should be able to care for them----and that is not to say they have to provide them with the best of all things material. I'm thinking food, shelter, clothing and love. But beyond that, more power to them.

However, I am really bothered to see people encouraging, strongly encouraging woman to keep on reproducing when she is neither willing or able, using scripture as their weapon.

Quiver0f10

02-25-2008, 06:19 PM

Jean,

Reading this website was what caused me to start this thread. I mean, I'd been thinking about it anyway w/out knowing there was a term for it, then found this site.

But I couldn't find much information there. There were links to news articles on people w/ big families & links to good books to read (which I wish my library had!), etc.

There didn't seem to be a lot actually *there.* Did I miss the good part somehow?

Thanks!

I haven't read through the site in years and we were qf before I knew there was a name for what we were LOL. I just thought we were nuts :D

Try this link and see if it helps any, although I haven't read it yet http://www.quiverfull.com/birthcontrol.php

Pencil Pusher

02-25-2008, 06:26 PM

The other problem I have is that half of these families continue to have more children eventhough they cannot afford the ones they have. Between Medicaid, Famis, and WIC -- it just makes no sense to me to continue to increase the tax burden on others all the while saying "God is providing."

I've been thinking about this a lot since you posted it. Well, before, too, because it *is* an issue. Whether or not it's a common one like you've indicated, it underscores the importance of the question.

IF this is the right way to go, to what extent? If the mother's life is in danger w/ ea pg, to ME, that seems like an exception. If a family can't afford to feed the dc they've got...well...that SEEMS like a legitimate exception, too.

Except. A tiny, tiny part of me asks: If something is right, is it only right as long as we can afford it? Would we say abortion was acceptable if a very poor family found themselves unexpectedly pg?

Not that bc is NECESSARILY the same, but the principle applies, kwim? I guess I'm looking for a guideline, & then I have to work out the what-if's.

I'm pg w/ #4 right now. Dh & I have always wanted app. 4, MAYBE more. But we JUST had #3, & dh has just started seminary. He has had a harder time finding a good enough job to support us & work w/ his sch schedule. We're at the pt that we've spent our savings & can't afford to leave before Aug even if we wanted to: student housing is way cheaper than anything else.

So I'm IMMEDIATELY pg in the midst of this. Do you have any idea how embarrassed I feel? I tell strangers at the grocery store what a surprise this one is. I feel like the only way I can justify this baby is to assure anyone who looks at me that we DID use bc. So it's not really our fault.

I can't imagine walking around w/ the burden of "blame" in this situation. When I imagine that bc might not be acceptable (for me if no one else), the main thing that bothers me is what other people would think. ESPECIALLY given our current financial situation, which I hope is temporary. But...who can say for sure? You know?

I do care what other people think. The more $ I have, the less I care, because of the "responisibility" aspect. The truth is, I should be more concerned about God's opinion than that of others. But that really begs the question of gov't aid: is accepting it a means of God helping or is it an avenue of escape from trusting him?

Everyone around me (it seems) is making ends meet here at seminary by accepting whatever gov't aid they can get, & I'm the ONLY one who sees a problem w/ it. They all talk about learning humility thr the experience.

On the one hand, what do I know? On the other hand, that doesn't sound like humility. That sounds like letting someone else put you through school. But then, I had another friend whose dh went to law school via the same means. Why did that seem okay? Is that different?

I don't know, but I did want to say that I think the question you've raised is valid, & I would LOVE to have an answer. No, I'd love to have THE answer!

Joanne

02-25-2008, 06:42 PM

Just as long as you don't think that everyone who has an early return of fertility must not be nursing, sleeping with baby exc. I basically wear my babies all the time , nurse them when hungry, all that and my fertility returns fully in less than 6 weeks. Believe me I tried very hard to put off fertility! I have another friend with the same issue. Each of us is an individual. It is what it is

I don't. I'm one of those people myself. I believe it's an a symptom of a fallen world. Hormones in food, artificial lighting, less skin to skin than in earlier times......

I believe that there IS supposed to be a certain spacing between kids so the infant/toddler gets the most optimal nutrition from Mom and Mom's body has time in between pregnancies (which, while natural, were not meant to be stacked on top of each other).

Pencil Pusher

02-25-2008, 06:48 PM

I haven't read through the site in years and we were qf before I knew there was a name for what we were LOL. I just thought we were nuts :D

Try this link and see if it helps any, although I haven't read it yet http://www.quiverfull.com/birthcontrol.php

This seems to primarily focus on bc pills, which dh & I have never used. I'd like to hear about more conservative bc, like barrier/NFP. I guess I'd like everything to be like these boards! ;)

Susan in TX

02-25-2008, 06:56 PM

Quiver0f10

02-25-2008, 07:09 PM

Yes but these same children will be shouldering the tax burden of supporting all those baby boomers and Gen Xers who couldn't be bothered with having children of their own. Children do not just benefit their parents. They are an asset to society as a whole, so I see nothing wrong with parents taking advantage of the government support that is available.

Susan in TX

There are plenty of families with 1-2 kids use WIC, food stamps etc too and not large families are on welfare. I am not saying getting state aid is wrong and if you need to, then by all means use it. That's what it was created for!

Lorna in the boonies

02-25-2008, 08:01 PM

May I ask a question, since this seems to have turned into more of a general discussion? I don't think I understand the quiverfull idea very well. Can someone direct me to an explanation of the ins and outs? Also, what does one do if, say, the wife is still fertile but more pregnancies would be very bad for her health?

I'll take a stab at addressing your second question, at least as far as it has affected my own personal situation.

I was one of those people, my mother says, who just were not ever meant to have babies. The difficulties I have had are just ridiculous (my OB has told me that, if my situation weren't so awful, it would almost be funny, given the sheer variety and magnitude of my problems).

I'll spare you all the details, but I will say that my 7 pregnancies have ended in three healthy children, two stillbirths, a miscarriage, and a neonatal death. With the baby who died after birth (baby #6), my blood pressure was 52/15 when I got to the hospital (I'm no doctor, but I've been told that what that means is that I shouldn't be typing this right now).

At that point, dh wanted to quit. He kept telling me that I was more important to him than any as-yet-unborn babies, that he was tired, and that we needed to stop.

I held my tongue for a long, long time.

Eventually, he was willing to give it one more shot, in the event that this was IT, no matter how things turned out.

So we tried one more time. It was the scariest time of our lives. (I actually blogged about it just last week (http://deweyhaftaacademy.blogspot.com/2008/02/seven-years-ago.html), though I focused more on how scared I was for the baby than on how scared dh was for my health.)

After #7 arrived here safely, my OB and my dh ganged up on me and said 'absolutely no more', with my OB telling me that there was only a slim chance that any future baby could even survive to term, but that, if it somehow managed, there is no way my body could make it to term itself without a rupture -- he said my uterus looks like a jigsaw puzzle at this point, that the scar tissue is pervasive, and that any future pregnancy would be, without a doubt, life-threatening. My parents, my siblings, my friends, my neighbors, strangers in Wal-Mart, and the entire world were happy to hear this and agreed with him.

Dh got a vasectomy. My parents asked if they could pay for it. The knowledge that I wouldn't scare them half to death anymore was worth it to them.

Most days, I'm okay with it. These days, I'm having a bit of a difficult time. My SIL is expecting a little girl on the same date that I delivered one of my stillborn daughters in 1995, and that is bringing up feelings that I thought I had dealt with (not that SIL even has a clue that the date even means anything to me, as I would never dream of telling her right now).

I'm 40 years old. Practically, I know that stopping was a good thing for us. But my mind and my heart are entirely two different things. I'm not sure my heart will ever be okay with it.

(Editing to add that, while we weren't QF, per se, we were very open to the idea of lots of kids and we both really wanted a houseful. We did use NFP with great success and certainly never felt like we were doing anything wrong by doing so -- so maybe my post isn't entirely appropriate here?)

Susan in TX

02-25-2008, 08:14 PM

True. But it also doesn't say "more is better".

The "quiverful" verse, IMO, is meant to be applied to however many you HAVE - not to suggest that more is better.

I have to respectfully disagree here. The quiverful verse is not the only one in the Bible dealing with children. And, if you were going to battle wouldn't you want to have as many arrows as possible?

Here are the verses that indicate that more is better:

"You will know that your children will be many,
and your descendants like the grass of the earth." Job 5:25
(This is referring to the blessings that will come to "the man whom God corrects")

"The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. And he also had seven sons and three daughters."
Job 42:12,13

This is what the LORD says—
your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
who teaches you what is best for you,
who directs you in the way you should go.
If only you had paid attention to my commands,
your peace would have been like a river,
your righteousness like the waves of the sea.
Your descendants would have been like the sand,
your children like its numberless grains;
their name would never be cut off
nor destroyed from before me."
Isaiah 48:17-19

" Blessed are all who fear the LORD,
who walk in his ways.
You will eat the fruit of your labor;
blessings and prosperity will be yours.
Your wife will be like a fruitful vine
within your house;
your sons will be like olive shoots
around your table.
Thus is the man blessed
who fears the LORD."
Psalm 128:1-4

I'm sure there are more verses like these but I think this is enough to prove my point.

Susan in TX

FloridaLisa

02-25-2008, 08:51 PM

Aubrey,

I've read this thread with interest. I have no answers, but I want to encourage you with my personal journey. I'll make it short and sweet.

I was an attorney, had always planned on working part-time and having my 3 kids in Christian school. Along came #4 and then #5. At that point, I was home full-time and, though I loved my children dearly, realized I'd have a dozen quickly. So, without any prayer whatsoever, I had a tubal ligation after my 5th was born.

A year or so later, God began working on me. Out of the blue. From nowhere. I didn't read any books, had never heard of *quiverfull*. God himself began speaking to me about Who controls life. All of life. He met every single objection I had. It was simply about MY trust in HIS control over LIFE.

Simple and yet, not easy. I sat dh down and told him my convictions. He completely agreed. We decided that I'd have a reversal. God provided the money from some unforeseen circumstances and I underwent reversal surgery. Then after getting pregnant so easily, I waited and waited and waited. I've had two post-reveral children. But each time, I had to resubmit my trust to God. Importantly, both whether we did or did not conceive. Neither were within my control.

I could tell you story after story about God's provision. I could tell you story after story of blessing.

In the end, it was a matter of God calling my dh and me to something and whether we would obey. It was really, IMO, not a question that we could reasoned with. If it were, WE would be back in the control seat.

Two roads. I followed one. And that has made all the difference.

Many blessings,
Lisa

nancypants

02-25-2008, 09:48 PM

Would we say abortion was acceptable if a very poor family found themselves unexpectedly pg?

Not that bc is NECESSARILY the same, but the principle applies, kwim? .........
Everyone around me (it seems) is making ends meet here at seminary by accepting whatever gov't aid they can get, & I'm the ONLY one who sees a problem w/ it.

First of all, no, we would absolutely not say that being poor makes abortion okay. Even if a family is so poor that they really cannot feed another mouth there are other options, namely adoption. The same principles do not apply. One is about being extremely poor, to the point of bringing in absolutely no money (as my brother and SIL that I mentioned in my PM to you were) and doing your best to prevent further pregnancies in such a time. The other is about being poor and getting pregnant, whether by not being careful or whether by BC just not working and then choosing to do away with the child. Not the same principle at all because one does not require someone to die. Saying the same principle applies is like saying that doing whatever possible to prevent a disease (please don't think I'm comparing babies and diseases!!!) is along the same lines as having a treatable disease and choosing not to treat it. Preventing it costs no lives but not treating it costs a life.

As for the money issue, I also think the mindset matters. Suddenly finding yourself in the position of needing govt. assistance is quite different than willfully creating more expenses while knowing that you are not footing the bill. (I am using "you" in the general sense here.) Knowing that you do not have enough money to even feed the mouths you have and purposefully creating more mouths is just irresponsible and the Bible does speak about it. I Timothy 5:8 "If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." While this doesn't really speak to contraception specifically, one can easily gather that it's important to God that we provide for our own families to the best of our abilities.

Obviously God is sovereign and can and does work over and above contraception and when that happens when we are "poor" we continue to trust His sovereignty and we continue making plans and choices based on the wisdom and resources He has given us.

KristineIN

02-25-2008, 09:53 PM

I have not had a chance to read all of the responses, but I think anything in a marriage needs to be prayfully decided between husband, wife & God. Before dh & I had children, he kept saying that we were going to have a bunch (here we were living in a run down 2 bedroom house and I kept hearing, we're going to have as many kids as we can.) So we got pregnant, all was going well until dd decided to come 6 weeks early, a planned home birth ended up with a week in NICU leaving us financially stricken (he was self employed at the time with no insurance.) We thought Anna coming early was a fluke, I breastfed and we just let nature take it's course. About 18 mos. later I was expecting again. Baby #2 decided to also come early and spend a week in NICU. At this point, we did qualify for Medicaid and used it. 18 mos. later, I was pregnant with #3, who also came early and I finally was like, ok, I can't keep doing this. Dh agreed and we did not have anything done permanently but decided that our calling in life was not to have a large family. After living in the same house for almost 10 years with kids, in a financial mess, my FIL not knowing everything, offered to help us get into a larger house. I know not everyone would take help, but we would have been stupid to turn it down. Dh was too prideful to just move out, cut our losses and start over. We have made terrible choices, but are learning and doing much better now that we've had a "fresh start" I don't like being on Medicaid, but dd wears glasses, ds's both had tubes in their ears when they were younger, dd required an umbilical hernia surgery and regular sicknesses. Anyway, I don't know what my point is, but I know that God has different plans for everyone. We look back and admit that our first mistake that we made, buying an older home that we thought we could fix up and then having an early baby that sent us into financial trouble early on. Dh has never really made a lot and has tried to live above his means (want, want, want kind of guy) but when your FIL gets involved it's very humbling and makes you think about what you REALLY need.

Kristine

Karin

02-25-2008, 10:35 PM

If it helps, the concept of the pre-existance of the soul has no biblical roots, but rather comes from other religions. It had been incoporated by many of the Hellenistic Jews. As for the soul life and when it starts, that is a highly controversial theological topic that you're free to pm me on if you'd like to know what I understand from studying the Bible on it.

As for bc, there is nothing either for or against it in the Bible. All I am aware of, other than Roman Catholic church tradition are 2 things.

1. The interpretation of scripture to say that God controls the womb. I think God gave us free will, but then that gets into the whole predestination thing, and, in a nutshell, I believe that God, who is all-knowing, predestinates based on what He already knows people are going to do by their own free will. But a lot of scripture buildup is involved in explaining this.

2. The theology of Onanism being a sin. This came up on the old board. If I were Roman Catholic, I would accept this as the teaching of the church and combine it with church tradition. I have good friends who are RC, and understand that it's not just about the Bible, but about church tradition and what the pope states ex cathedra (if there's more, I apologize for missing it.) However, I have studied that account that included Onan (in Genesis 38) and do not see that it implies that you can't use bc, but rather that Onan refused to take the responsibility of levirate marriage, which his father, Judah, told him to do. I think that if bc were truly wrong, it makes no sense to have millions of sp**m each time as almost all of them "go to waste" and what happens when you're already pr*gn*nt? Not one of them will be used to conceive.

Now, since I have known women to conceive after v's, tl's and one with 1/4 of an ovary, I think that if it's truly meant by God for more babies to happen, it can still happen. I think you have to take care of the dc you have and that it's not separate viable life before conception. If it were, murder would be committed each and every time s*x occurred.

Karin

02-25-2008, 10:44 PM

I think we can prevent babies God intends--whether or not that means all bc is always wrong.

Ah, I don't think so--I put something about this in my post below before I read this answer of yours. I do not believe God oversteps freewill or that He ever gives us more than we can handle, but I also think we have been entrusted with thinking skills to use them. The question I forgot to put in my other post is this: Can you handle more children soon and still put God first in your thoughts and life? Can you still maintain a healthy marriage if you have more children soon? How can you balance your relationships with God, your dh and your children if you have more soon?

Karen FL

02-25-2008, 10:50 PM

Conception is a natural process, and I think in most cases, God lets nature take its course. Just as I don't think God causes natural disasters, I don't think God personally causes each conception. (Hmm. That makes it sound like babies are natural disasters, which isn't quite what I wanted to say.)

I think God is capable of supporting us in whatever life circumstances we find ourselves . . . but I also think he approves of us taking an active role in our family size. I think the analogy to trusting God to provide while working hard to get a job is appropriate.

Of course, I've been known to say that we *all* have full quivers--some of us just have bigger quivers than others!

I believe, based on reading of scripture, that God does personally cause each conception for He is the Creator of all living things. Here is one example from scripture below to that effect. There are many more scriptures where God tells us he opened or closed wombs.

"Then God remembered Rachel, and God listened to her and opened her womb." Gen 30:22

Karen

Karin

02-25-2008, 11:04 PM

I know, but that's just the thing. I'm fine with trusting him if his plan is 4-5 dc. Beyond that, I'm not fine w/ trusting.

So I guess that's really not trusting at all, is it?

The Bible tells us to trust God, not man. I cannot think of a single verse that instructs women to trust their husbands. As for obeying our husbands, the scripture I know of talks about submitting, which is to be done with proper arrangement and according to what's biblically correct. Husbands are not perfect and may not always make the right decisions.

And the context also discusses all believers submitting one to another (what's right, not who's right) and that a man should love his wife as his own flesh. One of the more old-fashioned (aka old school) clergymen I've ever known said that a man should leave this decision to his wife because she is the one who bears the children and does most of the work involved with caring for a baby. Sorry, but no dh, no matter how wonderful he is, knows what it's like to carry and bear a child. Not even the passing of a 10 pound bowling ball really covers it, IMO, nor does wearing those things they now have, really cover it (but it helps!) Each of us who chooses to be a Christian is repsonsible for our own walks with God.

Pencil Pusher

02-25-2008, 11:08 PM

The question I forgot to put in my other post is this: Can you handle more children soon and still put God first in your thoughts and life? Can you still maintain a healthy marriage if you have more children soon? How can you balance your relationships with God, your dh and your children if you have more soon?

No. Absolutely not. If it's His call to abandon bc AND if that results in another pg soon, I'd need Him to step in & help. Change me, give me grace, something.

Pencil Pusher

02-25-2008, 11:23 PM

If it helps, the concept of the pre-existance of the soul has no biblical roots, but rather comes from other religions.
Yes, I realize. I said somewhere in here that I realized later that that sounded heretical. I'm just trying to describe an idea I have that I'm willing to admit might be way off. Kwim?

As for bc, there is nothing either for or against it in the Bible.
Yes, I know. I guess my question is, are there *principles* there that lead to one conclusion or the other?

I mean, I had a friend in college who took this to the extreme: Since the Bible doesn't say anything about drugs/smoking, they're both ok. (Fwiw, I did point out the obey the laws of the land thing, but that could really only be applied to the drugs.)

The theology of Onanism being a sin. This came up on the old board. If I were Roman Catholic, I would accept this as the teaching of the church and combine it with church tradition. I have good friends who are RC, and understand that it's not just about the Bible, but about church tradition and what the pope states ex cathedra (if there's more, I apologize for missing it.) However, I have studied that account that included Onan (in Genesis 38) and do not see that it implies that you can't use bc, but rather that Onan refused to take the responsibility of levirate marriage, which his father, Judah, told him to do.
I agree. I think reading this story as a statement against bc requires a little bit of a stretch. I'm glad I'm not the only one!

I think that if bc were truly wrong, it makes no sense to have millions of sp**m each time as almost all of them "go to waste" and what happens when you're already pr*gn*nt? Not one of them will be used to conceive.
I think this is a difference in RCC doctrine. They believe that ea, er, intimate act, should be open to life. So, uh, other...types...of intimacy...that are purely for...pleasure...can't result in life, therefore are selfish, therefore are sin.

Otoh, I don't feel that way at all. That's the problem (sort-of) that I have w/ NFP. I think intimacy is OK to be enjoyed, for its own sake. Iow, if a couple were engaging in, um, some of these other acts, for the sake of bc, that would be wrong if bc is wrong. Otoh, if they're...you know, swinging from the chandeliers for fun...well, that's a different issue. So that would make intimacy during pg NOT an issue of bc. See what I mean? (I hope!)

Now, since I have known women to conceive after v's, tl's and one with 1/4 of an ovary, I think that if it's truly meant by God for more babies to happen, it can still happen. I think you have to take care of the dc you have and that it's not separate viable life before conception. If it were, murder would be committed each and every time s*x occurred.
Just for argument's sake, if you don't mind, I wouldn't say that the question of a separate viable life before conception necessarily means murder ea time things occur. Rather, if one wanted to look at it that way, those would be natural deaths. But really, if the question is of the soul, then the only deaths are of the ones that have souls.

Again, that gets heretical, so I'm just saying for argument's sake. :o

Karin

02-25-2008, 11:44 PM

Yes, I realize. I said somewhere in here that I realized later that that sounded heretical. I'm just trying to describe an idea I have that I'm willing to admit might be way off. Kwim?
Yes, I do. There were so many answers I wrote, then read!

Yes, I know. I guess my question is, are there *principles* there that lead to one conclusion or the other?

I mean, I had a friend in college who took this to the extreme: Since the Bible doesn't say anything about drugs/smoking, they're both ok. (Fwiw, I did point out the obey the laws of the land thing, but that could really only be applied to the drugs.)
Right! How do we walk the fine line between licence and legalism? But I would argue that many drugs fall under the same command as to avoid drunkenness, pharmakeia (sp), etc. As for smoking, there is no command against it. I'm an avid nonsmoker, but it's because I don't think I can honestly pray for health and smoke at the same time. However, I don't condemn people who smoke--I've never been part of a church or fellowship that does.
I respect people deciding to not use bc as a personal decision. And even if I don't agree with the theology used to support not using bc, I understand not everyone is going to agree. I jumped in because you seem to be feeling so much pressure and I do believe God gives us the choice. We do understand basic biology, and I don't agree that no Christians ever practiced it before the last 100 years. But there were few options.

Otoh, I don't feel that way at all. That's the problem (sort-of) that I have w/ NFP. I think intimacy is OK to be enjoyed, for its own sake. Iow, if a couple were engaging in, um, some of these other acts, for the sake of bc, that would be wrong if bc is wrong. Otoh, if they're...you know, swinging from the chandeliers for fun...well, that's a different issue. So that would make intimacy during pg NOT an issue of bc. See what I mean? (I hope!)
I do see what you mean. This issue is a lot more clear to me than it is to you, and you have so many different opinions here to think about I'm not sure how much it's all helped other than to help you think it through. I'd go to God about it, too, and discuss it with your dh. Ultimately, they're the two you need to decide this with.

things[/I] occur. Rather, if one wanted to look at it that way, those would be natural deaths. But really, if the question is of the soul, then the only deaths are of the ones that have souls.

Again, that gets heretical, so I'm just saying for argument's sake. :o

I understand that you're doing this for argument's sake. I just don't think God would plan it in a way that causes so many natural deaths. I believe that the devil is the author of death, but that gets into another sticky theological debate if we get into that one! But I do understand what you're saying and I often ask questions when I think things through.

btw, I see nothing wrong in discussing things with God when you don't or aren't sure you agree with Him if your goal is to get to where you do. How many times do the Psalmists pour out their problems to God? As long as the goal is to get His answers. I tell my kids they can complain to God the way the Psalmists do--to get to the point where they're thankful for His blessings and agree with Him.

I'm signing off for the night now as I've way overdone my normal computer quota. Guess I missed it more than I realized when I was away.

amy g.

02-25-2008, 11:56 PM

I have not read every response, so forgive me if I am way off base.

I am okay with NFP. That is all we have used in our marriage, and all 4 of my children were plan and prayed for.

I look at NFP as saying to God, "I'm not really ready for another baby right now, But I'll accept it if you give me one." I feel like it is about intention.

My Dh is 7th out of 8 children. His mother really thought he was the last. Then she had my youngest BIL who is learning disabled. He ended up never marrying, and living at home taking care of my MIL all of these years. They are best friends. She has had such a nice old age because of him. That really inspires me.

I also think about how you have to live if you are open to as many children as God sends you. Well, it wouldn't really work if you were a two income status seeking couple. I think about the 1 bathroom and the close quarters. What if that really IS the blessing?

I'm almost 42. I doubt I'll have a 5th child. If I did, it would really cut down on the number of private lessons my older kids get to take. It would drastically slow down our lives. What if that is God's intention? I would have to believe that it was, and embrace it.

Pencil Pusher

02-26-2008, 12:03 AM

Joanne

02-26-2008, 12:05 AM

Here are the verses that indicate that more is better:

"You will know that your children will be many,
and your descendants like the grass of the earth." Job 5:25
(This is referring to the blessings that will come to "the man whom God corrects")

"The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. And he also had seven sons and three daughters."
Job 42:12,13

This is what the LORD says—
your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
who teaches you what is best for you,
who directs you in the way you should go.
If only you had paid attention to my commands,
your peace would have been like a river,
your righteousness like the waves of the sea.
Your descendants would have been like the sand,
your children like its numberless grains;
their name would never be cut off
nor destroyed from before me."
Isaiah 48:17-19

These are beautiful. They are Truth. They are also poetic.

StaceyinLA

02-26-2008, 04:12 AM

Not because I'm the only person who has been in my situation, but because I'm sure it is not THAT common (though I know it is getting to be moreso).

I'd love to go into tons of detail, but it's 2 a.m. and I HAVE to go to sleep. Long story short, I DID have a tubal reversal. I never really wanted to have my tubes tied, and I wanted LOTS of kids. Well, first dh leaving me during my 4th pregnancy abruptly changed things for me. I decided, at 28 with 4 kids, to have my tubes tied. When ds was 6 weeks old (and 2 weeks after my dad died), I had the surgery. I think I regretted it from the moment I woke up.

Anyway, fast forward a couple of years and I remarried dh and had a reversal a year later. I have lost 4 babies to ectopic pregnancies, each one a heart - wrenching and emotionally devastating blow to one who wanted more babies. I wound up having a hysterectomy because I couldn't bear creating life knowing it could just not survive. Knowing I did it to myself only made it all the worse.

So, how does all this help you?? Well, mainly to say that I would NEVER do anything permanent, especially not at this age and this stage (young kids). You cannot make a decision like that without LOTS of prayer, and, in fact, I am not convinced that it is ever a really wise idea because only God knows our future and where we will be years from now.

I do NOT disagree with all forms of bc. I absolutely disagree with abortifacient b/c, but do not believe that true barrier b/c or natural family planning is against scripture.

Do I believe children are a blessing? ABSOLUTELY!! Do I believe that the Lord gave us wisdom to make choices about what we are capable of? YES! Do I think that all qf families are Godly, wonderful families just because they have allowed God to plan the number of children they have? NO.

We have several WONDERFUL qf families in our home school group that I have TONS of respect for. We also have a family with 9 kids that are horribly neglectful and abusive and have had CPS remove children from them twice. I just don't think that because you CAN have lots of children means you SHOULD.

Let your husband lead you. He is the head of your home. If He chooses for yall to allow God to plan your family 100%, trust that the Lord will give you what you need when you need it; He will. If He chooses for yall to be more in charge of your fertility, do let him know your feelings on certain forms of b/c and on permanent methods. Ultimately yall will have to come to an agreement, or you will have to follow his leading. Either way I believe the Lord will provide you with what you need to do His will.

Scarlett

02-26-2008, 09:19 AM

I just don't think that because you CAN have lots of children means you SHOULD.

I think this sums up my entire feelings on the matter. And in thinking in reverse, what about the women who wanted lots of children and for whatever reason could not.

JuJuBee

02-26-2008, 09:44 AM

I mean, I had a friend in college who took this to the extreme: Since the Bible doesn't say anything about drugs/smoking, they're both ok. (Fwiw, I did point out the obey the laws of the land thing, but that could really only be applied to the drugs.)

I don't think smoking in moderation is sinful. The principle is treating your body as the temple of the Holy Spirit. If you smoke two packs a day, you are abusing your body. If you have an occasional cigar after a particularly tasty dinner, I don't see that as sinful. Then again our church used to host Poker Smokers, where the men got together, smoked cigars, and played poker, so my take is extreme liberality on things which are not forbidden by Scripture, i.e., where we have freedom in Christ according to our conscience.

I guess my question is, are there *principles* there that lead to one conclusion or the other?

Because Scripture isn't specific in either condemning birth control or commanding maximized reproduction (i.e., actively trying to conceive as many children as possible), I still maintain that the guiding principle at play is prayerful submission to God's will for your life and your family. That means drawing close to him and seeking his will for you. The end result might be not using birth control, or it could be (as in the case of a friend of mine who nearly threw herself and her baby out their apartment window during a struggle with suicidal tendencies and PPD) permanent surgical birth control. We can trust that God will make his will known to us when we seek him. :)

Lizzie in Ma

02-26-2008, 09:53 AM

After our 2nd, dh had a vasectomy and THEN we became convicted the other way, that we should have let God decide for us. Sadly, we have had neither insurance or funds for a reversal since then and biologically my time is running out. I get teary these days as my youngest is 7 and growing so fast and I think, wow, I only have 6 years left with hsing my oldest and see....now i am crying again. Oh well.

beansprouts

02-26-2008, 09:53 AM

Because Scripture isn't specific in either condemning birth control or commanding maximized reproduction (i.e., actively trying to conceive as many children as possible), I still maintain that the guiding principle at play is prayerful submission to God's will for your life and your family. That means drawing close to him and seeking his will for you. The end result might be not using birth control, or it could be (as in the case of a friend of mine who nearly threw herself and her baby out their apartment window during a struggle with suicidal tendencies and PPD) permanent surgical birth control. We can trust that God will make his will known to us when we seek him. :)

I completely agree. I believe that God does call some people to have large families. He also calls some to be missionaries: "Go and make disciples of all nations". That does not mean we are ALL required to pack up our families and move to Guatemala. God's word is True for all, yet carries a unique message for each of us. I read the scriptures that were posted and they did not speak to me in the same way they have spoken to some. That does not mean you are wrong, nor does it mean I am. All I ask is that you understand and respect that God has a unique plan for my family which might not be the same as yours.

Melinda in VT

02-26-2008, 09:55 AM

I believe, based on reading of scripture, that God does personally cause each conception for He is the Creator of all living things. Here is one example from scripture below to that effect. There are many more scriptures where God tells us he opened or closed wombs.

"Then God remembered Rachel, and God listened to her and opened her womb." Gen 30:22

Karen

To me, the story of Rachel tells us that God can cause a conception, but does not tell us that God causes every conception.

Like Joanne, I have a hard time with a God who causes crack babies.

JuJuBee

02-26-2008, 10:09 AM

All I ask is that you understand and respect that God has a unique plan for my family which might not be the same as yours.

That is so important! Everyone is gifted in different ways. Those who are gifted in the care and management of large families should follow God's lead in that way. The couple who is called to missionary work in a war-torn area of the world may rightly use birth control so that they can do what God is calling them to. There is such freedom in our faith to follow the promptings of the Spirit. That freedom scares us, I think, because it's easier to have rules, rules, rules, so we know where we stand. But we have amazing freedom within God's loving limits (i.e., no adultery, murder, etc.). We want everything to be to the nth degree, but it quelches the process of learning to listen and to trust God and that lifelong process of growing into Christlikeness. I mean, if every last thing is spelled out, then we simply follow all the rules and we are done. God wants so much more than that for us -- he doesn't want to create mere rule-followers, he wants to make us prophets, priests and kings!

beansprouts

02-26-2008, 10:29 AM

That is so important! Everyone is gifted in different ways. Those who are gifted in the care and management of large families should follow God's lead in that way. The couple who is called to missionary work in a war-torn area of the world may rightly use birth control so that they can do what God is calling them to. There is such freedom in our faith to follow the promptings of the Spirit. That freedom scares us, I think, because it's easier to have rules, rules, rules, so we know where we stand. But we have amazing freedom within God's loving limits (i.e., no adultery, murder, etc.). We want everything to be to the nth degree, but it quelches the process of learning to listen and to trust God and that lifelong process of growing into Christlikeness. I mean, if every last thing is spelled out, then we simply follow all the rules and we are done. God wants so much more than that for us -- he doesn't want to create mere rule-followers, he wants to make us prophets, priests and kings!

I think I am going to like you :)

Susan in TX

02-26-2008, 12:02 PM

We do understand basic biology, and I don't agree that no Christians ever practiced it before the last 100 years. But there were few options.

The teaching that the use of artificial birth control was a sin was universal in all Christian denominations until 1930. The Episcopal Church was the first to change the teaching and allow for the use of birth control. In 1930 it was only allowed for those extreme cases and total abstinence was the preferred method. In 1958 the concept of "family planning" was fully embraced.
http://www.noroomforcontraception.com/Resources/Contraception-Lambeth.htm

Now, I'm sure that there were Christians who went against the teaching of the church just like many Catholics do today...but the official teaching in every Christian denomination was that birth control was a sin.

It is interesting that almost all Protestants today would say that the passage about Onan has nothing to do with the use of birth control yet, Martin Luther and John Calvin both interpreted that passage as a direct condemnation of contraception:

Martin Luther said, "[T]he exceedingly foul deed of Onan, the basest of wretches . . . is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, yes, a sodomitic sin. For Onan goes in to her; that is, he lies with her and copulates, and when it comes to the point of insemination, spills the semen, lest the woman conceive. Surely at such a time the order of nature established by God in procreation should be followed. Accordingly, it was a most disgraceful crime. . . . Consequently, he deserved to be killed by God. He committed an evil deed. Therefore, God punished him."

John Calvin said, "The voluntary spilling of semen outside of intercourse between man and woman is a monstrous thing. Deliberately to withdraw from coitus in order that semen may fall on the ground is doubly monstrous. For this is to extinguish the hope of the race and to kill before he is born the hoped-for offspring."

(These passages are quoted in Charles D. Provan, The Bible and Birth Control)

Susan in TX

Karin

02-26-2008, 12:05 PM

I believe that God does call some people to have large families. He also calls some to be missionaries: "Go and make disciples of all nations". That does not mean we are ALL required to pack up our families and move to Guatemala.

YES!!! I wish I'd remembered this last night when I was in major jet lag. This is so true--each of us has our unique calling in the Body of Christ. Sometimes God calls us to do things we're not sure we can do, but He doesn't call us all to do the same thing. Moses and Isaac had only 2 children, but I wouldn't say they were less blessed than Job who lost 10 and then had 10 more (but his children will be double in the resurrection--his other wealth was restored double, but that was just for that lifetime). And this is before there was a Body of Christ.

Karin

02-26-2008, 12:25 PM

The teaching that the use of artificial birth control was a sin was universal in all Christian denominations until 1930. The Episcopal Church was the first to change the teaching and allow for the use of birth control. In 1930 it was only allowed for those extreme cases and total abstinence was the preferred method. In 1958 the concept of "family planning" was fully embraced.
http://www.noroomforcontraception.com/Resources/Contraception-Lambeth.htm

Susan in TX

Well, I'm not convinced that this includes all Christians. For one thing, when I grew up I was taught that the trinity was universally taught in the churches for centuries, which I learned when studying the history of the church wasn't true--there have been biblical unitarians all along. In fact, the church was split in half over this issue (I'm not arguing for or against the trinity, just bringing this up for the sake of making my point). So, I now question all doctrine that isn't spelled out in scripture. I am definitely sola scriptura. I am passionate about doing as we are admonished in the NT and searching the scriptures to see if what I've been taught is true--that I stand approved before God, not man. This is a lifetime goal I don't think any of us is capable of completely finishing. But I don't just read it in English, I also try to study the original words, oriental customs, figures of speech, etc. Hebrew is tough because of all the homonyms, etc., and I'm newer to that.

As for men like Luther, for whom I have great respect, I think each of them made contributions to prostestantism but only went so far away from their former Catholicism. How much can one do in only one lifetime? Also, they did not have knowledge of pre-Mosaic levirate marriage law and custom. For one thing, the code of Khammurabi wasn't even discovered until the early 20th century. Until then, scholars knew of no written code of law in that area prior to the law of Moses. Cultural studies of the area began in the nineteenth century, when various forms of levirate marriage were discoverd to be still in existance. Onan REFUSED to raise up seed, or offspring, for his brother, and that was sin. The Mosaic law broke from the past by making levirate marriage a choice; prior to that it was mandatory.

Just for the sake of another illustration of recent learning, I'll bring this one up. Until the dead sea scrolls were discovered, the words agape/agapao was thought to have been first recorded in the Bible, and it's major interpretation in theology reflected this. Once the scrolls were discovered, it was learned that they word predate the NT, which really helps, since not all t he uses in the NT line up with the traditional definition of "the love of God".

I'm of the strong conviction that we're always learning and coming to a knowledge of the truth. I also believe that a lot of gnostic, pagan and Greek philosophical beliefs were incorporated into theology. This is not unknown, of course, but it's far more wide spread than many realize. One of the books I've been reading that discusses this is I Suffer Not a Woman by the Kroegers. This is a scriptural examination of part of I Tim 2, and includes quite a bit on pagan and gnostic beliefs, which is what Paul was refuting in that entire epistle. There were so many variations on Biblical accounts, many which were mixed with pagan and gnostic beliefs that even in the first century Paul was handling a lot of this. Eve was conflated with mythological women as well as goddesses in various places (gnosticism isn't one set of beliefs, there are many variations.) For example, in I Tim 2 Paul was telling them not to teach the common (but not universal) gnostic/pagan belief that Eve came before Adam, that Adam was deceived not Eve, etc. Now, the Christian Church doesn't teach that, but it was being taught by some early Christians, et al, in Ephesus back then. Even with this book, I go back and work this from scripture the best I can, and to see how it fits with the Bible as a whole (remote context--I'm really big on scope and context, not just isolated scriptures.)

6packofun

02-26-2008, 12:27 PM

Martin Luther said, "[T]he exceedingly foul deed of Onan, the basest of wretches . . . is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, yes, a sodomitic sin. For Onan goes in to her; that is, he lies with her and copulates, and when it comes to the point of insemination, spills the semen, lest the woman conceive. Surely at such a time the order of nature established by God in procreation should be followed. Accordingly, it was a most disgraceful crime. . . . Consequently, he deserved to be killed by God. He committed an evil deed. Therefore, God punished him."

John Calvin said, "The voluntary spilling of semen outside of intercourse between man and woman is a monstrous thing. Deliberately to withdraw from coitus in order that semen may fall on the ground is doubly monstrous. For this is to extinguish the hope of the race and to kill before he is born the hoped-for offspring."
Susan in TX

There are many Christian leaders and founding church fathers, etc. who were, quite frankly, wrong about some things. :) I don't hold any human being above the word of God and know that we're all capable of misinterpretation. I feel like Martin Luther may be saying that it was a sin for Onan because God had directed against it at that time--even Luther says it "was" a crime, not "is" a crime. For Onan, then, it was sin. This is what I believe to be true about this passage.

And I believe Calvin was/is just wrong on this based on that one quote. I don't throw out everything else he's ever said or believe he's a false prophet because of it, but I hold his words against the word of God...and believe he was in error on this issue.

When God speaks specifically to an individual or group of people, it's our duty to really use discernment to discover if that applies to all believers or is being used as an example of a greater principle OR to show that God cares about our hearts and motivations. The word picture or story is sometimes simply the illustration used to convey a greater truth. The actual truth He intends for us to receive. :)

I believe this explains why the "be fruitful and multiply" issue has caused such division and some have based an entire theory of childbirth/childraising on verses such as these.

Susan in TX

02-26-2008, 12:30 PM

As for the money issue, I also think the mindset matters. Suddenly finding yourself in the position of needing govt. assistance is quite different than willfully creating more expenses while knowing that you are not footing the bill. (I am using "you" in the general sense here.) Knowing that you do not have enough money to even feed the mouths you have and purposefully creating more mouths is just irresponsible and the Bible does speak about it. I Timothy 5:8 "If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." While this doesn't really speak to contraception specifically, one can easily gather that it's important to God that we provide for our own families to the best of our abilities.

I Timothy 5:8 has nothing to do with parents supporting their children. It is talking about the widows in the church and which ones should be supported by the church. The passage here is simply stating that those poor widows who have family members should be supported by their family, not by the church. And if that family member has the means to support them yet refuses to do so "he is worse than an unbeliever".

I have heard this verse used so many times to try to convince those who were quiverful minded, or leaning that way, that their views were unscriptural. It was used on my husband and I (by a church leader) when we were a young married couple struggling with this issue and in no way financially prepared to start a family. Yet, our conviction was very strong so we took a step of faith and God was faithful.

I knew a couple who were convicted that BC was wrong yet they were struggling financially. The husband was especially struggling. They were expecting #3, he was laid off, and their car only had room for three children. His pastors used this verse to pressure him into getting a vasectomy, against his wife's wishes. She was devastated. It wasn't long after that he got another job and he began to regret the decision.

There may not be anything in the Bible that prohibits the use of birth control, but there is also nothing that commands it or says that we are sinning if we are not "good stewards" and choose to have more than the socially acceptable number of children. There is also nothing in the Bible that says it is a sin to accept government aid or other forms of charity.

Susan in TX

Susan in TX

02-26-2008, 12:36 PM

There are many Christian leaders and founding church fathers, etc. who were, quite frankly, wrong about some things. :)

My argument is not that the teaching was right or wrong, just that it was the *universal* teaching of Christendom until 1930. If anyone can cite sources that show otherwise, I'd really like to see them.

Susan in TX

nancypants

02-26-2008, 01:01 PM

I Timothy 5:8 has nothing to do with parents supporting their children. It is talking about the widows in the church and which ones should be supported by the church. The passage here is simply stating that those poor widows who have family members should be supported by their family, not by the church. And if that family member has the means to support them yet refuses to do so "he is worse than an unbeliever".

I have heard this verse used so many times to try to convince those who were quiverful minded, or leaning that way, that their views were unscriptural. It was used on my husband and I (by a church leader) when we were a young married couple struggling with this issue and in no way financially prepared to start a family. Yet, our conviction was very strong so we took a step of faith and God was faithful.

I knew a couple who were convicted that BC was wrong yet they were struggling financially. The husband was especially struggling. They were expecting #3, he was laid off, and their car only had room for three children. His pastors used this verse to pressure him into getting a vasectomy, against his wife's wishes. She was devastated. It wasn't long after that he got another job and he began to regret the decision.

There may not be anything in the Bible that prohibits the use of birth control, but there is also nothing that commands it or says that we are sinning if we are not "good stewards" and choose to have more than the socially acceptable number of children. There is also nothing in the Bible that says it is a sin to accept government aid or other forms of charity.

Susan in TX

Susan I think you have misread much of what I have said. I have never said it is wrong to accept government aid when one finds themselves in a tough situation. I have most emphatically never said it is wrong or sinful to have more children than is socially acceptable. If you are really addressing me here, you are most certainly putting words in my mouth. But to suggest that this passage is ONLY talking about widows is just plain ridiculous.

I Timothy 5:8 "If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

If anything it underscores that a person should not only be caring for his own children, but also his widowed mother or mother in law or sister, etc... It most definitely is about what you speak of but to say that it has NOTHING to do with providing for the children you already have is silly. They are obviously in your immediate family.

I personally have very close experience with several families who have several children. Some of my dearest friends have 9. They care for them and provide for them and the husband's widowed and aged mother also lives with them.

However I also have personal experience with families who have purposefully gotten pregnant as soon as humanly possibly, one on top of the other despite the fact that both parents were not working regular jobs, the father was in and out of jail (and yes, these were professing believers though obviously they had a great many struggles), their family was having to constantly be picking up the pieces and caring for the children that they had. The mother all but ignored the children she already had and yet they continued having more and wasting what money they did have/get on frivolities to excess. They have four little boys with less than 5 years between them all now. And now the wife is a widow. I know this, and a great deal more, because this was my brother's family.

I know plenty more families like this. And I don't think you can honestly look at these married Christian people as they bring their children to church each week completely unwashed, noses unwiped and wearing only diapers (the family I am remembering in particular had seven children -- and I babysat for them so I know how they lived... and it wasn't that he didn't make money... it was that they managed it poorly) and suggest that they should consider having more.

Nobody is making this passage say something it doesn't say unless they are suggesting that people only need provide for their extended family and not their immediate one. It very clearly does not say that!

6packofun

02-26-2008, 01:15 PM

My argument is not that the teaching was right or wrong, just that it was the *universal* teaching of Christendom until 1930. If anyone can cite sources that show otherwise, I'd really like to see them.

Susan in TX

Oh! I'm sorry if I missed your intent. :) Sometimes I just get going... lol ;)

FloridaLisa

02-26-2008, 01:17 PM

I personally have very close experience with several families who have several children. Some of my dearest friends have 9. They care for them and provide for them and the husband's widowed and aged mother also lives with them.

However I also have personal experience with families who have purposefully gotten pregnant as soon as humanly possibly, one on top of the other despite the fact that both parents were not working regular jobs, the father was in and out of jail (and yes, these were professing believers though obviously they had a great many struggles), their family was having to constantly be picking up the pieces and caring for the children that they had. The mother all but ignored the children she already had and yet they continued having more and wasting what money they did have/get on frivolities to excess. They have four little boys with less than 5 years between them all now. And now the wife is a widow. I know this, and a great deal more, because this was my brother's family.

I know plenty more families like this. And I don't think you can honestly look at these married Christian people as they bring their children to church each week completely unwashed, noses unwiped and wearing only diapers (the family I am remembering in particular had seven children -- and I babysat for them so I know how they lived... and it wasn't that he didn't make money... it was that they managed it poorly) and suggest that they should consider having more.

Don't mean to pick on you, Nan, but there has been plenty of this reasoning in this thread. The bottom line is what scripture teaches (unless you are Catholic and also include church teachings). In any question about what scripture teaches on an issue, we cannot look to good or bad examples to determine or affect our answer. Imperfect humans will always mess up God's perfect order.

Lisa

JuJuBee

02-26-2008, 01:19 PM

Martin Luther and John Calvin both interpreted that passage as a direct condemnation of contraception:

Martin Luther said, "[T]he exceedingly foul deed of Onan, the basest of wretches . . . is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, yes, a sodomitic sin. For Onan goes in to her; that is, he lies with her and copulates, and when it comes to the point of insemination, spills the semen, lest the woman conceive. Surely at such a time the order of nature established by God in procreation should be followed. Accordingly, it was a most disgraceful crime. . . . Consequently, he deserved to be killed by God. He committed an evil deed. Therefore, God punished him."

John Calvin said, "The voluntary spilling of semen outside of intercourse between man and woman is a monstrous thing. Deliberately to withdraw from coitus in order that semen may fall on the ground is doubly monstrous. For this is to extinguish the hope of the race and to kill before he is born the hoped-for offspring."

But we aren't bound by Luther or Calvin in anything. We are bound by Scripture and our conscience. Luther himself said...

Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason---I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other---my conscience is captive to the Word of God.

You could substitute "Luther and Calvin" for "popes and councils" and the sentiment is the same for myself. If I call myself a Calvinist, it's not because of some slavish devotion to every word of Calvin, it's simply because the term has become synonymous with the views espoused in Reformed tradition.

In other words, I admire Luther and Calvin, and I'm sure they were convinced in their hearts that preventing the births of children was sinful. But neither one of them will sit in judgment of me. That the church held an anti-birth control position historically is frankly a more convincing argument to me. Yet at the same time, we are warned not to heed the traditions of men, and especially not to use traditions to browbeat others or to compare who is more holy. Absent a clear prohibition of bc (and God seems to have no problem making these!), I think we are in the gray area of reasonable interpretations.

To be clear, I don't have a problem AT ALL with quiverfull families. If that is what God is calling someone to, then I think that is wonderful! I think it is a very high calling! But I do think it is a calling, and not a command. I guess that sums it up best!

nancypants

02-26-2008, 01:37 PM

Don't mean to pick on you, Nan, but there has been plenty of this reasoning in this thread. The bottom line is what scripture teaches (unless you are Catholic and also include church teachings). In any question about what scripture teaches on an issue, we cannot look to good or bad examples to determine or affect our answer. Imperfect humans will always mess up God's perfect order.

Lisa

Yes, I do understand that anecdotes are anecdotes. But scripture very clearly teaches that we need to provide for our families. My example was to point out what good is it to pick the "children are a blessing" passages OVER the "care for your own" passages? I heartily believe children are a blessing and I truly love seeing big families. I do!! :) (and I don't feel picked on.)

But I also believe we are to be good stewards of the blessings we are given. "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Though the Bible doesn't specifically speak about these truths in terms of contraception, there are a great many things the Bible doesn't specifically mention and yet we still draw from scripture certain ideals. If we have to give a scriptural proof for every single important decision we make, I think we would all be emotionally crippled and unable to make any decisions (for as much as anecdotes are worth, I know people like this and it's almost painful to watch them in their inability to make a decision without divine revelation.) Either that or we would find ourselves doing what is done all too often, attempting to make the scriptures say something that they do not say, which may even be worse than being crippled by the lack of a passage!

A Christian doesn't have the luxury of choosing between "children are a blessing" and "provide for your own immediate family" and that's what I was trying to illustrate with my examples. So really these examples don't determine or effect my convictions (my convictions on this issue have always been as they are now); rather, they illustrate them. We have to embrace both. What I was responding to was the fact that Susan seemed to be pitting those two things against each other, when in fact they must go hand in hand.

ereks mom

02-26-2008, 01:48 PM

Our calling is to bring up children who can be *effective* arrows, Godly arrows. And that means that choosing to space or limit those arrows may be wise.

I agree. And I like the analogy about the farmer. I believe that God gives us intellect and wisdom so that we can make good choices.

A dear friend once asked my dh his opinion about the 'quiverful question'. The friend and his wife were wrestling with whether they were "refusing God's blessings" by using birth control instead of "allowing God to determine" the size of their family. Dh answered with a wink, " I think that by not using birth control, a couple is allowing God to control the bottom half of their bodies. I choose to let God also control the top half of mine."

Karin

02-26-2008, 01:48 PM

But we aren't bound by Luther or Calvin in anything. We are bound by Scripture and our conscience. Luther himself said...

You could substitute "Luther and Calvin" for "popes and councils" and the sentiment is the same for myself.
Agreed!

That the church held an anti-birth control position historically is frankly a more convincing argument to me. Yet at the same time, we are warned not to heed the traditions of men, and especially not to use traditions to browbeat others or to compare who is more holy. Absent a clear prohibition of bc (and God seems to have no problem making these!), I think we are in the gray area of reasonable interpretations.

Yes, this is a rather gray area. Where we differ is that I'm not convinced by things because the church held the view traditionally, but I'm happy to agree to disagree, because many of my IRL friends think the same as you. IRL I rarely get to speak up so much because often I get so intense and passionate when I speak about scripture that it's hard for people to see that while I hold strong opinions I respect that others have different ones. I've asked God many times why I couldn't have been born with a quieter, milder, sweeter personality, but He called me anyway...

Karen FL

02-26-2008, 03:21 PM

To me, the story of Rachel tells us that God can cause a conception, but does not tell us that God causes every conception.

Like Joanne, I have a hard time with a God who causes crack babies.

I only listed only one of the scriptures but there are many more in which God says He opens and closes the womb. And in Psalm 139:13 the psalmist wrote, "For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb."

Yes, God does allow crack babies to be born. I have a friend who is a neonatal intensive care nurse. She states that most of those babies do very well after they withdraw from illicit drugs. They even look more glossy and healthy in some ways than the rest of the babies in the neonatal unit. I'm not advocating illicit drug use.

God is God. What He allows or doesn't allow is difficult for us to comprehend. Why He allows conception to take place in a person who daily or occasionally uses alcohol or drugs while pregnant is difficult to understand. But He is God. He doesn't answer to us. Psalm 100:3 says, "Know that the LORD, He is God; It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves; We are His people and the sheep of His pasture."

Karen

kdeno

02-26-2008, 03:21 PM

I think that if we each seek God's will for our lives with a consecrated heart, not matter what the issue (children, education, dresses, headcovering) and if we are truly willing to do *whatever* He calls us to He will show us. Perhaps it is different for each family.

May God bless you with wisdom from Him,

Kari

Joanne

02-27-2008, 10:51 AM

Yes, God does allow crack babies to be born.

The biology He created allows it. Free will allows it.

But I will NEVER believe that my God willed for *that* child to be born under those conditions, for my 8 year old self to be molested, for.......

Pencil Pusher

02-27-2008, 11:07 AM

Pencil Pusher

02-27-2008, 11:08 AM

I completely agree. I believe that God does call some people to have large families. He also calls some to be missionaries: "Go and make disciples of all nations". That does not mean we are ALL required to pack up our families and move to Guatemala. God's word is True for all, yet carries a unique message for each of us. I read the scriptures that were posted and they did not speak to me in the same way they have spoken to some. That does not mean you are wrong, nor does it mean I am. All I ask is that you understand and respect that God has a unique plan for my family which might not be the same as yours.

First, I can definitely respect different calls, no matter what conclusion I come to.

Second, I really like your example of some being called to missions. That's a helpful way for me to look at it!

Pencil Pusher

02-27-2008, 11:32 AM

The biology He created allows it. Free will allows it.

But I will NEVER believe that my God willed for *that* child to be born under those conditions, for my 8 year old self to be molested, for.......

Oh, Joanne! Whether or not God plans those specific babies, I think we'd all agree that He certainly doesn't plan the sin involved.

Fwiw, I agree that crack babies raise a big ? as to God's will & plans for conception. I don't want to say he planned them, but I also don't want to say that all babies come into the world as a matter of chance or biology. So I'm stuck.

Pencil Pusher

02-27-2008, 11:45 AM

I Timothy 5:8 has nothing to do with parents supporting their children. It is talking about the widows in the church and which ones should be supported by the church. The passage here is simply stating that those poor widows who have family members should be supported by their family, not by the church. And if that family member has the means to support them yet refuses to do so "he is worse than an unbeliever".

This is what I've heard, too. Now, if you have a father who REFUSES to support his children, then I think the verse could certainly be applied. Otoh, if you have a father who's temporarily laid off, etc., I think using this verse is cruel.

I knew a couple who were convicted that BC was wrong yet they were struggling financially. The husband was especially struggling. They were expecting #3, he was laid off, and their car only had room for three children. His pastors used this verse to pressure him into getting a vasectomy, against his wife's wishes. She was devastated. It wasn't long after that he got another job and he began to regret the decision.

This is what I meant earlier about abortion. My point was that nobody would tell a poor family that they were expected to have an abortion if they had an unexpected pg.; everybody would try to help. Otoh, that same family does *not* have the freedom to hold convictions that bc is wrong, because they cannot nec. support the children that are produced. Do you see the correlation?

Saying that we have responsibility & brains means that because the speaker does not see bc as wrong, the hearer can't, either, unless he/she has enough $ to hold that view.

There may not be anything in the Bible that prohibits the use of birth control, but there is also nothing that commands it or says that we are sinning if we are not "good stewards" and choose to have more than the socially acceptable number of children. There is also nothing in the Bible that says it is a sin to accept government aid or other forms of charity.

I don't think anybody here really has a problem w/ people accepting charity. The problem is w/ people not using bc & then accepting charity, and I think the problem seems to be primarily based on ex's of families who exercised, er, "freedom from bc" but then abused the children that were produced. Or treated their dc fine & abused the families around them by proclaiming their greater holiness.

I hope that a final analysis of the question does not ride on those who act like that, because, on that basis, one might choose not to be a Christian at all w/ equal validity.

Many keep talking about it in terms of how big a family a couple wants. I can tell you, I want a family of 4. I want enough dc for them to play a board game together when mom & dad are busy. I want to, at some pt, know that I'm done being pg.

But...I guess I don't think it's about what I want. There were times earlier in my life when I thought I wanted to marry whomever I was dating at the time. Looking back, I can see how badly ea of those would have worked out. Even if what I want is relevant, I've made enough mistakes in that regard to know that I don't even really know (as well as God does) what I want.

Iow, if dh & I have more dc after this one, for one thing, I don't want people to think that I'm just greedy & want a lot of children. (There we go again, though--I did just start that sentence w/ what I want! LOL)

Anyway, thanks for a great discussion so far!

Susan in TX

02-27-2008, 01:34 PM

This is what I meant earlier about abortion. My point was that nobody would tell a poor family that they were expected to have an abortion if they had an unexpected pg.; everybody would try to help. Otoh, that same family does *not* have the freedom to hold convictions that bc is wrong, because they cannot nec. support the children that are produced. Do you see the correlation?

Actually, I do. I also believe that the acceptance of birth control ultimately leads to the acceptance of abortion. I'm not saying that those who use birth control will then automatically accept abortion as okay, it is just that, logically, one leads to the other. In other words, if I am being responsible and using birth control to prevent a pregnancy than why is it not also responsible and right to terminate a pregnancy when birth control fails? Also, the most effective forms of artificial birth control (aside from sterilization) are also abortificants (or can be). Condoms, diaphrams, and spemacides are simply not that effective. In fact, NFP is more effective if it is used correctly.

As far as knowing that you are done being pregnant...even if you don't use any birth control that day will come. Eventually you will go through menopause and you will know that you are done being pregnant:-) But, seriously, if you are quiverful minded or even just want a big family, you come to see things differently. You view your childbearing years as a long stretch between marriage and menopause...not a few years in your mid-twenties or thirties.

And if I can gently offer some advice: stop worrying about what other people think. You need to do whatever you and your dh believe is right even if others look down on you and judge you for it.

Susan in TX

SnowWhite

02-27-2008, 01:42 PM

Condoms . . .<snip> are simply not that effective.

Oh, boy, if only that were true for my family. I am in quite a different predicament from most of the moms posting on this thread. My dh is completely done having children. If we have another, it will only be because he is unwilling to withhold from me what he knows I desire. So it becomes a matter of how much am I willing to impose upon him? It would certainly make my life easier and less stressful if God would allow our <ahem> barrier method to fail.

Joanne

02-27-2008, 02:50 PM

I also believe that the acceptance of birth control ultimately leads to the acceptance of abortion. I'm not saying that those who use birth control will then automatically accept abortion as okay, it is just that, logically, one leads to the other. In other words, if I am being responsible and using birth control to prevent a pregnancy than why is it not also responsible and right to terminate a pregnancy when birth control fails?

I fail to see the actual "logic" in this.

I do, however, see some insult.

To assume that those of us who use bc would ever, let alone eventually, feel it's ok to end infant life is:

1) Untrue
2) Insulting
3) Assumptive
4) Not logical

ereks mom

02-27-2008, 03:19 PM

...abused the families around them by proclaiming their greater holiness.

Dh & I have definitely been victims of this. I've shared before about a couple that we know (fellow pastor & wife) who asked friends of ours (other pastors & church leaders) to pray for us because of our sin of "refusing to accept God's blessing" by limiting our family size (2 children). The couple who wanted others to pray for us are aquaintances of ours, not close friends at all. They NEVER mentioned the issue directly to dh & me, never discussed it with us. They have NO idea of our situation, and how or why we made the decision to have only two children. Yet they felt it was permissible for them to proclaim to our friends that we were wrong!!! It just makes me mad all over again every time I think about it.

Pencil Pusher

02-27-2008, 03:39 PM

Actually, I do. I also believe that the acceptance of birth control ultimately leads to the acceptance of abortion. I'm not saying that those who use birth control will then automatically accept abortion as okay, it is just that, logically, one leads to the other. In other words, if I am being responsible and using birth control to prevent a pregnancy than why is it not also responsible and right to terminate a pregnancy when birth control fails?

Well, I guess I meant it as an illustration. I can't quite carry it that far. This is one of the things that bothered me about Catholic doctrine. Dh & I had been very careful in choosing bc that did not have any form of abortificant, & I was very insulted for them to compare our use of barrier methods to abortion, esp since I knew that they were LESS effective than NFP. Between the 2, I guess I'd consider c*ndoms to be more of a yes to life than NFP, based purely on statistics. Either way, we certainly never would have considered abortion.

My point in bringing up abortion was not to compare it to bc in that way, but simply to illustrate that we wouldn't ask a couple to go agains their conscience in that way, so sometimes it seems incongruous (sp) to me that we will ask them to go against their conscience w/ regard to bc.

I think you probably meant your statement as a societal view, though, and not a personal one. Iow, a society that accepts bc will easily accept abortion, too. Individuals may not be so easily swayed. I see your argument, if that is what you meant. I might agree with you, but I'd have to give it more thought.

I still consider bc to be a pretty gray area, & some of my dearest friends use pills that do have abortificants, so whatever my conclusion for myself, even if it seems "scriptural" to me, I really don't want to offend.

And if I can gently offer some advice: stop worrying about what other people think. You need to do whatever you and your dh believe is right even if others look down on you and judge you for it.

You're VERY right about this. LOL. Other people's opinions have always mattered to me, not just too much, but to a really strange degree. I was raised in a...less than healthy home environment, & so...having & following my own opinion can be difficult. I mean, I'm super stubborn & strong-willed, but that's mainly because I wait until I'm absolutely. 100% sure. that I. AM. RIGHT. before doing anything.

Which makes mistakes & disagreements a real booger. (I might be kinda hard to live w/! lol)

Thanks for your thoughts.

nancypants

02-27-2008, 04:09 PM

I fail to see the actual "logic" in this.

I do, however, see some insult.

To assume that those of us who use bc would ever, let alone eventually, feel it's ok to end infant life is:

1) Untrue
2) Insulting
3) Assumptive
4) Not logical

Ditto that! :mad:

JuJuBee

02-27-2008, 04:10 PM

there is also nothing that commands it or says that we are sinning if we are not "good stewards" and choose to have more than the socially acceptable number of children. There is also nothing in the Bible that says it is a sin to accept government aid or other forms of charity

I missed this part yesterday but wanted to ask... do you not think that we are instructed in Scripture to make wise use of the resources -- financial, physical, and otherwise -- that God has given us? And if we are so instructed, what would poor use of those resources be if not sin?

In other words, if I am being responsible and using birth control to prevent a pregnancy than why is it not also responsible and right to terminate a pregnancy when birth control fails?

Just to add... because what is better called contraceptive control, methods such as condoms of NFP aim to prevent the intersection of egg and sperm. Human life is not AN egg or A sperm. It is only the coming together of the two into a completely new, unique human being at the moment of conception. If no sperm makes it to the egg, then there is no human life. Period.

On the other hand, if contraceptives have failed and there IS a human life, then we have an entirely new question on our hand, and that is now can we end that human life. That is a new set of propositions and, in the final analysis, a new conclusion.

If people use birth control to justify abortion, it is because their thinking is faulty and their sin nature (which wants to exalt their own rights over the rights of others) has taken the day, not because the argument is logically sound or that people can simultaneously use birth control nad abhor abortion. I can want and love children and *because of that* make prayerful decisions about spacing/family size that are right for *my* family, yet gladly welcome a child should God's sovereign plan overrule my own exercise of judgment and prudence.

beansprouts

02-27-2008, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Susan in TX http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=73674#post73674)
Actually, I do. I also believe that the acceptance of birth control ultimately leads to the acceptance of abortion. I'm not saying that those who use birth control will then automatically accept abortion as okay, it is just that, logically, one leads to the other. In other words, if I am being responsible and using birth control to prevent a pregnancy than why is it not also responsible and right to terminate a pregnancy when birth control fails?

I think you probably meant your statement as a societal view, though, and not a personal one. Iow, a society that accepts bc will easily accept abortion, too. Individuals may not be so easily swayed...

I think that is exactly what she is saying. I have heard this "logic" used by secularists in an attempt to defend their choice to abort. :( I do not think she was accusing anyone here personally of condoning abortion.

Susan in TX

02-27-2008, 06:36 PM

I think you probably meant your statement as a societal view, though, and not a personal one. Iow, a society that accepts bc will easily accept abortion, too. Individuals may not be so easily swayed. I see your argument, if that is what you meant. I might agree with you, but I'd have to give it more thought.

Yes, I meant it as a societal view and there are statistics to back it up: the more contraceptive use, the more abortion. Also the legal rationale for legalizing abortion was that since contraception is legal we need to allow the means to end a pregnancy when contraception fails. In the case Planned Parenthood vs. Casey, 1992, the court said, “In several critical respects, abortion is of the same character as the decision to use contraception. For two decades of economic and social development [i.e. since the 1973 decision which legalized abortion in Roe vs. Wade], people have organized intimate relationships and made choices that define themselves and their places in society, in reliance on the availability of abortion in the event that contraception should fail.”

Susan in TX

Susan in TX

02-27-2008, 06:52 PM

I missed this part yesterday but wanted to ask... do you not think that we are instructed in Scripture to make wise use of the resources -- financial, physical, and otherwise -- that God has given us? And if we are so instructed, what would poor use of those resources be if not sin?

Yes, we are instructed to be good stewards but I do not think that being a good steward neccessitates the use of contraception. I was speaking directly to the argument that we must limit the number of children we have through the use of contraception in order to be good stewards. In other words that those who don't contracept are sinning. (And I'm not saying that anyone here is making that argument but it has been made to me, personally, by others in the past.)

Susan in TX

Eliana

02-27-2008, 07:06 PM

This whole discussion has been very surprising to me, at times horrifying, but it has also been a real eye opener. I had no idea of some of the perspectives out there, and absolutely no idea that decisions of this magnitude were approached in some of the ways I'm seeing.

Although I have some strong reactions to a lot of what has been said, my worldview is clearly too far away from your, Aubrey, for me to be able to say anything specific which might be helpful. (Lest my faith's position be misunderstood: the use of contraception is a complex halachic issue and there is no *blanket* approval for it. My objections were to the reasoning being used, not necessarily the in practice conclusions.)

But I do want to say one general thing, please consider consulting with a spiritual leader you trust. Talk through this with someone whose interpretations of your scriptures you trust, and use that clarification to reapproach this. I am very concerned that you might put yourself in a situation which is wrong for your family based on some emotional arguments, fragments of your scripture out of context, and some very shaky reasoning.

I do not want to be disrespectful to you, your faith, or anyone here, but I feel an obligation to express my concern... with great caring, you have such a sweet heart and I want you to find the best path for your family in the long term (and I have no idea what that path might be!). And, although there has been a fascinating and, to me, mind-boggling discussion, it doesn't seem to have been one that would assist in the kinds of decisions you need to make.

Best of luck, my dear,

Eliana