not happy with MUS; what would be better?

[Heidi7Sue]

Hi!

We've been using Math-U-See (alpha level) for my dd5 for Kindergarten. I'm not really pleased with it, so I decided we need to switch to something else. My short list is:

Right Start
Miquon
Singapore
(I'm open to other programs too)

Here's why I'm not happy with MUS:

1) I had thought that since it uses manipulatives, it would be more fun than doing endless worksheets. As it happens, it's endless worksheets that you're supposed to figure out using the manipulatives. (boring, and not concrete enough IMO) So I've been supplementing with games and other activites that I find in various places, with an emphasis on counting, adding, and subtracting objects, not just working with symbols on a page.

2) MUS has a rather slow schedule. Multiplication is not even introduced until 3rd grade, and division not until 4th grade. I learned to multiply when I was five, and I'm supposed to wait three more years to teach my daughter? (It's also a problem relative to standardized tests.)

3) MUS uses a mastery approach, with a spiral aspect included in the review pages. I think this makes sense for kids to whom math does not come naturally, because it's just mean to make them go on before they truly understand something. But for us, I think it would be better to learn the concepts involved in addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division as early as possible, and then practice them all together, preferably with real objects, and in a fun way.

Given all that, I would welcome any thoughts on what math program would be a good fit for us. Thank you!
Heidi

[TracyR]

You'd probably like Singapore then. I did like Miquon but personally I needed more hand holding and at times it was confusing.

[nukeswife]

We never tried MUS, but did singapore for a few months. My kids didn't care for it. I think they had trouble with the way things were presented at times.

I'm now using CLE (http://www.clp.org) for my 1st grader and it's going so well. There is enough review without the overkill and the TM is laid out really well. It is a set of workbooks, but there is a variety of problems in each lesson. My dd likes that there are 10 workbooks instead of it being one huge book. She's made great strides in math using it and the other thing about it we like is that it's inexpensive.

[Cadam]

You have to really believe in the MUS methods for it to work for you. MUS is a wonderful program. Just to clarify, Multiplication is the third book but they are not grade levels by any means. My 7 yo is trucking through Delta. My ds who did MUS one book a year (as opposed to dd who is going through them more quickly) has always had amazing standardized test scores so those fears don't really materialize either. He didn't miss a single math problem on his 5th grade CAT even though he had only finished Delta and had a few lessons in Epsilon.

It certainly isn't for everyone though. Based on what you want and don't want I would say that Singapore or rightstart would be good programs. Right start has the games you are looking for (If I am remembering right, I never used it) and Singapore is great for kids who understand math and like the variety. Dd actually does both Singapore and MUS. I wouldn't recommend 2 full programs for most kids but she loves math. As you can see it isn't slowing her down since she is into MUS Delta and will start Singapore 3 next week when the books arrive.

Singapore and MUS are my favorite math programs. They are great, but the best math program is the one that works for you!

[yslek]

Rightstart definitely includes games, and is built around a lot of interaction with only occasional worksheets. It is somewhat of a mastery approach, but not in the same way as MUS. My ds who does well with MUS would have a lot of trouble with RS. My RS boy tends to be pretty good at math.

HTH

[ElizabethB]

We switched from MUS to Singapore, it's working better for us.

We also bought Right Start, we'll do that this summer. (She forgot half of what she learned in math last summer, and I want to do a bit of math this summer a few times a week, but something a bit more fun.)

We also have a Flashmaster, that helps for drill, we do it twice a week now to retain math facts, it's a much quicker, easier way to practice the facts than worksheets. We do 75 seconds of addition and 75 seconds of subtraction twice a week, right now that's 19 or 20 addition problems and 9 to 15 subtraction problems, it used to take her 3 minutes to do a worksheet of 10 problems, so that's a lot less painful. Two 75 second intervals is enough to retain the facts, we did more when she was still learning some of the facts. She was also a bit slower when we first started, it's really helped her know the math facts quickly (We're just starting subtraction, her speed is slowly increasing with that.)

[Spock]

My high schoolers use MUS, and I am satisfied with it for them, especially for my non-mathy oldest (although I still have to hand-hold him through the math, he is finally progressing in math after stalling from 5th-8th grade). I do worry sometimes that it isn't enough for my very math gifted (but not very math-interested) second son.

I thought I would like MUS for my elementary schoolers, too, so last year I put them in Beta & Primer for K and 2nd grade (along with CWP from Singapore). My youngest finished all of Primer by around February, and started in on Miquon Orange and Singapore 1A. My daughter, who had loved math in first grade, started hating math. She didn't like spending the whole year on addition and subtraction. She HATED the fact that all the worksheets looked almost identical. She missed the variety of styles and content from the Miquon/Singapore combination she had used for 1st grade.

This year for 1st and 3rd grade I put them both in Miquon/Singapore. I was bothered by the fact that my daughter had to go back and pick up concepts from 2A/2B and the Blue/Green books before she could continue. I felt as if we had totally wasted her 2nd grade year. (As it turned out, though, she was able to zip through the addition/subtraction sections in both the 2nd and 3rd grade books of both series, so she is now finished with all of Miquon and almost finished with 3A. By the end of 4th grade she should be caught back up to where she would have been without MUS.

So, I agree with your disappointment with MUS elementary level. I would recommend looking at either Singapore or Miquon, or both. (My children tend to do a few days or weeks in one, then a few days or weeks in the other. I will sometimes let them skip pages in one book or the other if they have learned the skill/concept thoroughly in the other. Since they also often do several pages in Miquon in one day when they are on an interesting section, they finish both programs by the end of the year.) You will probably need to do some math facts supplementing with either, unless your child is like 2 of mine, who learn their math facts without special drills.

[girliemum]

I used Right Start Level B for my son a couple years ago. We certainly enjoyed the manipulatives and games. We did not continue for two reasons: It was very teacher intensive AND he does better with worksheets. We still play the games and use the manipulatives, but we switched to a more traditional workbook method with Rod and Staff. I do not think Rod and Staff is the only program for him, but I do know he needs the daily worksheets to understand that he is progressing. We may be switching to Saxon as soon as he is in 5th grade, or so.
I AM keeping the Right Start program because I want to be able to try it with a child that may not be good at processing workbooks.

[mom2att]

Given all that, I would welcome any thoughts on what math program would be a good fit for us. Thank you!
Heidi

My vote would be for a Singapore/Miquon combo. Singapore because you seem to favor a mastery approach that moves quickly, and Miquon for the hands-on, discovery methods. This is what I did with my oldest, who would have withered with a spiral approach. Singapore/Miquon are easy to use together without overwhelming the child with math. Good luck!

[TaraTheLiberator]

We use RightStart and we love it. The games provide a lot of "drill" that is very fun for my kids, and instead of learning how to solve worksheets full of math problems, my kids are learning to understand math concepts. I grew up viewing math as a series of rules to be followed; my kids see math as a series of ideas to understand.

You might not be happy with the fact that RS doesn't teach subtraction, multiplication, and division until later levels (levels don't correspond to grades), but my dd has already figured out multiplication and division on her own, even though we haven't reached them in RS, just by applying what she's already learned.

Someone mentioned that RS uses a mastery approach, but I disagree. I think it is a spiral approach, both in the lessons and in the daily warm-ups.

Tara

[OhElizabeth]

Heidi, if RS is what you want, move forward through the levels as quickly as fits her but do a spiral program on the side to get the spiral practice you want. We did RS A-D, not adding that practice, and finally jumped to BJU math to get it all in one place. I really like the way RS develops place value, teaches 4 digit subtraction, etc., and it is very careful in the way it goes through the levels of abstraction, going from real, to a picture of real, to symbol.

[chiguirre]

I'm doing Singapore 1A and Miquon with dd now and we're both enjoying it. Here's a link to a schedule that combines the two by topic:

http://www.singmath.com/SM_Miquon.htm

[Heidi7Sue]

Thanks for all the replies! It helps to get many perspectives. I am leaning toward a combination of RS and Miquon, but I am going to let it simmer for a couple of days, forcing myself not to be impulsive. (I really want to get on the phone and order it right now!) Thanks for your help!

[sweetfeet]

We went from MUS alpha to singapore to rightstart b. RSb has been the perfect fit for my dd. I guess it really depends on why MUS isn't working out for your child, but mine was lost with MUS and singapore and now she truly understands and loves math.

[Laurel-in-CA]

We do MUS *and* Singapore, usually one worksheet from MUS and one lesson or exercise from Singapore daily. I don't worry about aligning them, but do focus a lot on the word problems. Singapore has its weaknesses, too -- for us, it's mainly the lack of coverage for probability...more recent editions do cover US measurement.

[SnowWhite]

We love Bob Jones University Math here. We did Singapore for a while, but BJU just seems more "complete" and teacher-friendly to me.

[gardening momma]

I am leaning toward a combination of RS and Miquon
If you're leaning toward a combination, you might try the RS AL Abacus and the Activities for the AL Abacus book. Then you wouldn't have to get the entire RS kit.

Here's a thread about it:
http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87466

[ELaurie]

Professor B Math. It's a mastery approach; it doesn't require the use of manipulatives, many of the "endless worksheets" are optional, concepts are presented systematically, with each one building upon previously learned skills, so "review" is built into the program, multiplication is presented as early as second grade.

The link is in my signature line. I can't speak highly enough about this program! Let me know if you have questions :001_smile:

[Lovedtodeath]

MUS was a bust for us too! I love the ALabacus. It makes sense because it is just like using your fingers. We got the Rightstart games. You can use them without the whole program.
I just ordered Abeka math. DDdid pretty well with Horizons and Abeka's workbooks are similar, but the TM is better, and they have charts and games.
Iam so sad that I spent most of the year teaching dd to hate math. :(

[rainforest mama]

We tried Miquon with Singapore, but DD didn't like the Miquon. I don't think she found the worksheets terribly appealing visually. We have stuck with Singapore and she is now in 4B. It really seems to work for us.

Singapore moves quickly through the concepts, which may work well for you. We have always supplemented with other materials for memorizing her math facts (games, flashcards, Calculadders, etc.).

[Spy Car]

Heidi, reading Dr Liping Ma's critique of American math education years ago (Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics) solidified my understanding of what is wrong with traditional math education. And how I have been among its victims in my own math education.

Reading the Miquon teachers materials (First Grade Diary, Notes to Teachers, and Lab Annotations) provided me with the inspiration and confidence to attempt something drastically different. And while our "experiment" is young, the results I'm seeing with my young son (4.7) are so rewarding and, to me, almost stunningly successful that I can only feel a sense of gratitude that I've found a way (or I should say "ways") to teach my son that has truly inspired him.

So we are drawing on all the programs you mention. Miquon and Cuisinare Rod work got us started. And we almost immediately added Singapore Earlybird, and then a Japanese program similar to Singapore, and then some items from Right Start (place value card, and base 10 cards) and the AL Abacus, with the math games and the Activities for AL Abacus arriving soon.

The Activities for AL Abacus was from what I understand the original Right Start program, so it will be somewhat like a Right Start-lite.

Oh, and a really interesting British adaptation of a Hungarian math program called the Mathematics Enrichment Programme (MEP) that is a highly interesting (if quite "foreign" feeling at times) "critical thinking" approach to math. And it is free for the download (but the "cost factor" is not why I'm using it). It's a whole different style to anything else.

And I'm juggling these. And using many manipulatives. And, as a result of reading the Miquon teachers materials (which some people don't do, which is fatal if you want Miquon to be the great inspiration it can be) I feel totally confident with our "Math Lab" experiment. And trying to teach the same concept from as many angles as possible. And to keep changing the approach. Almost every day.

We'll do something the Miquon way, the Singapore way, I'll make up my own way. We'll do MEP. Sometimes we will reinforce the "same" concept", other times we'll move to a related concept. What do I mean?

First we learned about numbers, and about "values". And using rods we learned to make different values in different ways. How many ways can you made a "seven". How can you deconstruct that 7?

2 + 5 + [ ]

but it can also be:

2 + [ ] = 7

or

[ ] + 5 =7

not to mention

7 - [ ] = 5

He was doing "equations" with blocks way before the could write numerals.

Then we learned to represent values with "red-dots" on cards, and tally sticks, and "tally stick-style on cards. And played dice.

And he'd put a shuffled deck of some sort of numeration into the "correct" order form "least to greatest", and then I'd shuffle the cards and ask him to reorder them from "greatest to least".

And we compare which is greater (or less than) in all these different "styles". Then maybe measure things with a centimeter ruler to see "greater and "less than values.

Then we introduce the inequalities symbols (<, >). And then I make a card with the symbol (>) and would put two manipulatives (cards, rods, whatever) on the table and ask him to flip the "inequality" card the correct way. So the red rod (2) is "less than" the black rod (7). And the black rod (7) is "greater than" than red rod (2).

Then the next night we might play "War", Same thing, less than/greater than. How else can we teach this???

Then maybe work on fractions in Miquon, just to mix it up :D

Then place value. With Cuisenaire Rods and base-10 blocks (which limits us to 100s values). And we talk about how many 100s, 10s, and "units" a number is made of. Then with the Right Start "base-10 cards" (which gets us to 1000s). Then with the Right Start "place value cards" (also 1000s) then with thee Right Start AL abacus, then with "poker chips" color coded to 1000s, 100s, 10s, and "units". And we'll write the numbers. Some times I'll "dictate" the number by it "name", and he'll tell me the value of each "place", then I'll tell him the value of each place and he'll tell me the "name". Or he'll made up the number and tell me both.

And when my son settled in for the night, he'll often say: let's talk about numbers. And he or I will break down a number by how many thousands, hundreds, tens, and units make it up. It's got him thinking mathematically.

And he's challenged to do it in ways that make him think critically. Miquon and MEP are really great for this aspect. And Singapore will be more so later. And the facility he has with numbers at his age astounds me. And we are having fun!

Anyway, I'm getting long-winded. And I guess the point I'm trying to make is that for me, Miquon (and the teacher materials) set us off on a journey that I believe is enriching our lives, and I'll be eternally grateful for what reading (and using) Miquon has done for me. And for my son. I feel it has freed me to approach all the tools we are drawing on in a "Math Lab" style.

It's working for us, but some people might find it insane :lol:

Good luck!

Bill

[Tabrett]

Honestly, I can't think of a program that teaches multiplying at 5 years old. I use RS. It hardly has any worksheets at all. I have heard that the first half of level level B is the same as the entire level A, just twice as fast. Maybe you would like level B better than A since it covers all of A, but faster?

I am on lesson 23 and we are still working with numbers 0-10. Counting by tens has just been introduced. The first thing that is taught is recognizing quantities without counting (if you hold up 7 fingers or show 7 beads on the abacus, your child should say 7 without counting the fingers). It does work with other concepts like types of triangles and 4 sided figures, making figures on geoboards, odd and even, patterns, ect...

I did SP earlybird with my 5yo dd in 18 weeks (I skipped 1 a&b, it was too easy and did 2 a&b). It is all worksheets. As far as math computation, it did addition and subtraction using number 1-10 and a little skip counting. I, personally, didn't think it was all that great. That could be because it was the k program written for the USA. I think RS teaches a lot more concepts and cements it better.

[Spy Car]

Honestly, I can't think of a program that teaches multiplying at 5 years old.

Miquon actually introduces multiplication in the first book (Orange). And it's done with Cuisenaire Rods, so 3 X 5 is three "yellow rods" or five "light green" rods" and both are equal in value to an "orange" rod plus a "yellow" rod, or in other words "15".

Thus far we've treaded very lightly on this, and will come back to multiplication a bit later.

Bill

[Heidi7Sue]

...trying to teach the same concept from as many angles as possible. And to keep changing the approach. Almost every day.

We'll do something the Miquon way, the Singapore way, I'll make up my own way. We'll do MEP. Sometimes we will reinforce the "same" concept", other times we'll move to a related concept. What do I mean?

It's working for us, but some people might find it insane :lol:
Bill

This is what I want to do, but organizing it all is the hard part for me, which is why I think I need to use the RS program straight up, and add things from there. I decided not to use Miquon as the organizing program, because dd is risk-averse, and I can just see her looking at those open-ended lab sheets (which I love) and saying, "I don't know what to do with this. Tell me the answer, Mom." So my plan is to start using Miquon for ideas she's already comfortable with, to get her used to their way of doing things. I'm hoping we can move to using Miquon sometimes for new concepts, and using it to explore, the way it was meant to be used.

I love math, but I was bored stiff by the drudgery of math class in grade school, and I want to avoid that for my dd.

Thanks for all the good ideas!

[Spy Car]

This is what I want to do, but organizing it all is the hard part for me, which is why I think I need to use the RS program straight up, and add things from there. I decided not to use Miquon as the organizing program, because dd is risk-averse, and I can just see her looking at those open-ended lab sheets (which I love) and saying, "I don't know what to do with this. Tell me the answer, Mom." So my plan is to start using Miquon for ideas she's already comfortable with, to get her used to their way of doing things. I'm hoping we can move to using Miquon sometimes for new concepts, and using it to explore, the way it was meant to be used.

I love math, but I was bored stiff by the drudgery of math class in grade school, and I want to avoid that for my dd.

Thanks for all the good ideas!

The thing about Miquon (not to push it) is you don't even have to start with the lab sheets, and in fact you shouldn't.

First you start with the Cuisenaire Rods stacking "trains" (different ways to make the same value, and other fun things. "Adding" numbers (rods) and finding the equivalent values, that sort of thing. Play!

There is much "discovery" and a high degree of confidence and resulting satisfaction already built up before you hit them with some of these admittedly "strange" looking lab sheets.

That said, I'm very impressed by everything I know about Right Start. I strongly considered it as our primary option, and had I wanted one straight-forward (but still "creative") program to use, Right Start might easily have been my pick.

But I came to the conclusion I didn't want straight forward, and wanted to be highly eclectic at this early age, and based on the (favorable) reports from other parents it seemed like Right Start might have used up all the time we had for math. Used it positively mind you.

And, based on reading many of Dr Cotter's writing I got the impression (perhaps a wrong one) that she had a very systematic approach that (while varied with-in itself) I felt I might need to be respected as a sequence and a method, and I just didn't feel open to "monkeying around" with Right Start.

I could be wrong in my initial impression. And actual Right Start users could better speak to how well (or if it is even necessarily, or valuable) mixing in other things works. I can also see that many parents might prefer the simplicity of using one program rather than constantly scrambling to figure out what's next. But I'm finding I'm a nut that way, and that I can gauge and tailor our math to my son's interest and needs.

Anyway, between the AL Abacus, the Activities book, and all the cards, and games that we will glean some of the best from Right Start.

In some ways I'm considering Singapore our "lead" program, although at the "Earlybird" stage it is in someways the least inspiring of the programs were using, I do expect this to change as we move on to higher levels, and I'm certainly impressed by Singapore's track record.

In any case, you seem to me leaning toward the programs that from my perspective provide a good foundation for getting to think mathematically.

Best of luck with your decision.

Bill

[emmsmama]

I use RS with my dd (4th) and ds (1st). It is a spiral-type approach, however it doesn't jump around without making sure the kids get a sound understanding in something first. It's hard to describe. Each lesson, you are reviewing quite a few things sometimes, and in each level you cycle back through concepts, however, it is very incremental and developmentally appropriate. You are doing multiple-digit addition very early on for example, however the reason it's possible is because there are many lessons devoted to making sure kids understand place value fully before moving on.

When I pulled dd from public school at the beginning of Gr. 3 I was shocked that she was counting tick marks on paper to add and didn't fully understand place value. It is SO crucial to so many things later on in math. So I went back to Level B in RS with her and made sure she really got it. We flew through some lessons, but that way I was sure she got the foundation she needed before moving on. Now when we are doing multiple-digit multiplication she can do the algorithm and get the answers correct, but she also fully understands why it is done the way it is. Then when we eventually get to long division, she will fully understand why it works the way it does as well, all because of truly understanding place value!

RS is fairly teacher-intensive. You don't just plunk a textbook in front of the child and then give them a worksheet page to fill in. You do the lesson with the child and then in the later levels there is usually one worksheet to do as well as review sheets after a handful of lessons.

I'm very happy thus far with RS. I like the solid understanding it builds in the fundamentals. I also like the spiral-type approach. Dd and I just came back to area and perimeter lessons in Level D, so I quickly went over it to make sure she remembered, but she has it down cold pretty much, so I just skimmed the lesson and gave her the worksheet. So being that it is spiral, I can be sure she's getting regular review of things, but also go through some lessons quicker if I know she fully understands them.

[Lovedtodeath]

I am wishing I had given miquon a chance now. Does it use the cuisenare rods? I have the cusinare rods and the book for K, but I am afraid that they would be confusing since the colors are different from MUS, which we already learned.

[homeschool_mom]

I also love Rightstart also. Instead of worksheets, you play games. There are a lot of great game ideas. They also have a geometry curriculum, but I haven't tried that yet.

[diaperjoys]

Here's another vote for BJU. We MUS, and like the BJU much better. Lots of variety, much better review, and many more manipulatives than MUS. A good fit!