Science Sequence... Confused, please explain

[butterfly113]

I'm sure this has been asked. I am confused. I have been reading several of the science threads regarding curriculum choices for middle and high school. As I ponder what to use in coming years, I am not clear on what the normal sequence would be from 5th through high school. Would this change if you were gearing it for a science minded child, or future science field? When I was in high school 'moons' ago :lol:, I studied Biology, Chemistry and then Physics. Is this the norm now as well? I have read of many doing Physics before CHem... Some clarity please? :001_smile:

[Karin]

The "normal" high school sequence seems to be:
Biology
Chemistry
Physics
etc

I was set to do this, but changed after hearing some convincing arguments by a Ph.D. for:

Chemistry
Physics
Biology
etc

There are also strong arguments for:
Physics,
Chemistry
Biology
etc.

What convinced me is because there is so much chemistry involved in biology, especially today. eg, cell biology, nerve transmissions, digestion of food...there are so many.

The drawback is the math. This is why we, as well as some others, have chosen to do Conceptual Chemistry & Conceptual Physics. Some say that these will be inadequate for college entry, but my middle brother, who teaches Physics at a Canadian university, has seen Hewitt's college Conceptual Physics, and said it would be fine. Dd wants to major in biochem, not physics, but even so.

The key is to get the right math in before university/college. In our case, we'll do AP courses in her two main sciences to get more mathy Chemistry in before she hits university/college.

We will look for a more demanding biology course than the typical gr 9/freshman course since dd will do it when she's older.

fyi, Paul G. Hewitt has written several books on Conceptual Physics, and it can get confusing at times. There have been threads discussing some of the different books he has. The Conceptual Chem we have is by his nephew, Sudocki, which dd will do right after RS4K Chem II (she'll do the RS4K this summer for fun, review and to fill in any potential missing pieces of background.)

[Sharon in MD]

I have one kid, ds 18 who is a senior in high school here with me. I think the most important thing that we have done in preparation for him to go off to college next year, with the dream of pursuing engineering, is to get a solid math background. That can, but does not have to include AP courses. The point is they should be of AP quality, and it can be very helpful to have AP test scores to back yourself up. We've not taken the AP route because the schools our son was interested in specifically would not accept AP scores for math placement. You had to have their particular math test for placement. We also decided that we would rather he took Calculus over again at whatever school he goes to so that he will have their course and will know what they expect his to know from that course.

A brief rabbit trail that is related.....
We are under an oversight, diploma granting type of program....recognized by our state as a private school, so for us it isn't necessary to prove what we've accomplished via AP or SAT II scores. We look like any other private schooled kid to the colleges. For some, us, we felt that advantageous....certainly others find it advantageous to be identified as homeschoolers.... There are many ways to approach this that are successful.

As for the sciences themselves, we went the traditional road of Bio, Chem, Physics for starters, then added Adv. Chem for the final course. If I had it to do over the thing I would change is I'd start Bio in 8th grade and then do both Apologia advanced Chem and Physics in high school. We really like Apologia in our family. But there are other programs out there that are considered more rigorous. My opinion is that if your child really likes a particular program, or it resonates with you as a mom in those earlier years of late elementary and middle school, then use it. Everyone that I know who has used Apologia has done just fine in college with it as a background. I don't personally think you have to pick the most rigorous program around to be well prepared.

The most important thing in both math and science is that the program work well for you and your dc. It doesn't matter two bits if it is the most reputable course if it doesn't work for you. The key is to make sure they get it.

Hope this helps a little....don't sweat it too much yet, you've got plenty of time.

[butterfly113]

:w00t: :eek: Don't Sweat It! I need to breathe! :eek: :w00t:

DS will be starting 4th next fall. All of a sudden a light went off the last few days as I was planning and mapping out curriculum. I am trying to prepare him to begin the logic stage the year after... and the high school after that. Then the thought of the math road and the science road! sigh. Thank you for the insightful info ladies. The math and science threads have really got me thinking.
I know that it is most important that we use what works for him, so he can learn the materials, especially with math. I am planning for him to be able to complete calc in high school. I am also strongly considering the Apologia Sciences. THis is the sequence I am looking at for Apologia. Does this look ok?

4th Astronomy/Botany (into summer if needed)
5th Zoology's 1,2,3 (into summer if needed)
6th General Science
7th Physics or Biology?
8th Chemistry
9th Biology or Physics?
10th Advanced Physics or Biology?
11th Advanced Chemistry
12th Advanced Biology or Chemistry?

thoughts? (and yes, I am remembering to still breathe! :lol:)

[Karin]

:w00t: :eek: Don't Sweat It! I need to breathe! :eek: :w00t:

DS will be starting 4th next fall. All of a sudden a light went off the last few days as I was planning and mapping out curriculum. I am trying to prepare him to begin the logic stage the year after... and the high school after that. Then the thought of the math road and the science road! sigh. Thank you for the insightful info ladies. The math and science threads have really got me thinking.
I know that it is most important that we use what works for him, so he can learn the materials, especially with math. I am planning for him to be able to complete calc in high school. I am also strongly considering the Apologia Sciences. THis is the sequence I am looking at for Apologia. Does this look ok?

4th Astronomy/Botany (into summer if needed)
5th Zoology's 1,2,3 (into summer if needed)
6th General Science
7th Physics or Biology?
8th Chemistry
9th Biology or Physics?
10th Advanced Physics or Biology?
11th Advanced Chemistry
12th Advanced Biology or Chemistry?

thoughts? (and yes, I am remembering to still breathe! :lol:)


Yes, take time to breath. He's only going into fourth grade ;). I've been in your shoes, so I say this kindly. But my dd is well prepared and did most of her science study independently at those ages (she learns extremely well by reading). My younger children are doing a more formal science study.

Be prepared to change plans if necessary. A college/university will want to see the three "main" sciences in high school, which you have planned. The only time I see astronomy on your list is gr 4. Will that be sufficient? Dd is doing Earth & Space in gr 8, so that she doesn't have to do it in high school, but she'll have a more advanced understanding of it. The funny thing is that when she was young (7 & 8) she was very much into the planets and becoming the first woman to set foot on Mars. Now she's not really interested in astronomy, but has been faithful to biology & chemistry for several years now.

The main thing you need to work on are logic and thinking skills so that your ds can apply these skills in science. This is what my brother, who teaches Physics in university (can't remember if I brought that up in one of your threads or a different one, so forgive me if I'm repeating that part!!!) said that is lacking in the first year students (aka freshman in the States) is logic and thinking skills. The example he gave came from math. He said that he'll have students who are well able to factor in Algebra, but when they get into Calculus they can't see when they need to factor there. We incorporate this into our lives, including in science, and are also going to teach logic in high school. Critical thinking books are nice (we've used some), but they're not logic--that comes later.

[Kareni]

...

Be prepared to change plans if necessary. A college/university will want to see the three "main" sciences in high school, which you have planned.

It's not necessarily the case that all colleges wish to see the traditional three sciences. My senior has been accepted so far to four colleges with the following progression:

9th: Conceptual Physical Science
10th: Chemistry
11th: Geology
12th: Environmental Science

Regards,
Kareni

[Sharon in MD]

Most of the colleges we looked at wanted to see a minimum of 3 sciences for students intending to major in the sciences. Of those 3, 2 needed to be lab sciences. We just decided to go for all four being lab sciences, plus we like labs.

You could also make it clear in a transcript that the student was allowed to take chemistry in 9th because bio was completed in 8th, as an example.

On the subject of using Apologia. If you use Apologia, I've heard that the general science course is pretty blah. But, the physical science is supposed to be much better. So, I'd skip general in favor of physical, especially if your child has had a pretty solid science experience in the elementary years. We used Sonlight during those years and I'm afraid I don't really know how what we did way back then compares to what they have now. But, I can tell you that we DID science all along, getting a good beginning in both physical and life sciences. As a result, ds had no trouble at all going into Apologia bio with no previous apologia background.

If you do follow Apologia for your curriculum choice, the main concern is that the student should have Algebra I before Chemistry, you really need Algebra to do Chemistry. For Physics, they should be at least in Al II or have completed it, with some basic trig.

[butterfly113]

ok, So what is the difference between physical science and physics... if I were to use physical science instead of general?

What sequence would you recommend from 5th-12th.
DS is headed for the following with math...
5th SIngapore 5A/B
6th Singapore 6A/B (possibly, maybe one of their DM courses)
7th Prealgebra
8th Algebra I
9th Geometry
10th Algebra II/Trig
11th Precal/Trig
12th Calc


So since he will have the math for chem etc... what science schedule sequence would you do?
I am thankful to be on my knees to the Lord Daily, and for this board and all the great insight and support from the hive! :lol: still breathing! ;)

[Sharon in MD]

There is a big difference between physical science and a physics course. Physical science is usually taught in the middle school years and covers topics like the atmosphere, hydrosphere.....some call it earth science. It may include introductions to physics and chemistry, depending on the publisher.

Here is a link to apologia's site that shows a chart with the recommended sequence they suggest. On the left of the page are specific course titles you can click on for details. He includes sample modules and tables of contents so you can get a good feel for the courses.

http://http://www.apologia.com/store/?PHPSESSID=9b643035afd70bcd862c79c52c24b621

This http://www.sonlight.com/6.html is very similar to what I used for a 6th grade science...it is hard to remember exactly what it was. I think though that we did a botany unit instead of the bio because we knew he would be taking an anatomy course at our oversight school in 7th grade. And at some point in late elementary we decided to do a marine bio/oceanography semester that was a lot of fun.

I really chose science topically before we started middle school. I just poked around on websites like sonlight and picked the supporting materials I wanted to use.

Your math sequence looks fine to me. As for the science sequence, why not work backwards from his senior year and figure it out that way. Where do you want him to be when he graduates? Do you want him to have taken both the Apologia Advanced Chem and Physics? Or maybe the Adv Chem and Bio? Start at the end and work your way backwards....that may help.

I would put the Chemistry courses back to back if I were to do it again....same for Physics. We didn't do it that way because we didn't know which one he would want to take in the adv. version. Since we could only fit one of the advanced courses in. With the way you have planned your math, you won't have any trouble with the sciences from Apologia.

[Karin]

It's not necessarily the case that all colleges wish to see the traditional three sciences. My senior has been accepted so far to four colleges with the following progression:

9th: Conceptual Physical Science
10th: Chemistry
11th: Geology
12th: Environmental Science

Regards,
Kareni


Thanks for letting me know. Is your son applying for a science program? I have one who doesn't like science, and if we can change what she does, that would be a help. My eldest does need them for what she wants to do.

[Kareni]

It's not necessarily the case that all colleges wish to see the traditional three sciences. My senior has been accepted so far to four colleges with the following progression:

9th: Conceptual Physical Science
10th: Chemistry
11th: Geology
12th: Environmental Science


Thanks for letting me know. Is your son applying for a science program? I have one who doesn't like science, and if we can change what she does, that would be a help. My eldest does need them for what she wants to do.

You're welcome. He's actually a she. She's not intending to major in science; she's headed for a Classics major. However, she does love Geology, so there's a possibility that she might pursue a minor in that area.

Regards,
Kareni

[jellogirl]

:w00t: :eek: Don't Sweat It! I need to breathe! :eek: :w00t:

DS will be starting 4th next fall. All of a sudden a light went off the last few days as I was planning and mapping out curriculum. I am trying to prepare him to begin the logic stage the year after... and the high school after that. Then the thought of the math road and the science road! sigh. Thank you for the insightful info ladies. The math and science threads have really got me thinking.
I know that it is most important that we use what works for him, so he can learn the materials, especially with math. I am planning for him to be able to complete calc in high school. I am also strongly considering the Apologia Sciences. THis is the sequence I am looking at for Apologia. Does this look ok?

4th Astronomy/Botany (into summer if needed)
5th Zoology's 1,2,3 (into summer if needed)
6th General Science
7th Physics or Biology?
8th Chemistry
9th Biology or Physics?
10th Advanced Physics or Biology?
11th Advanced Chemistry
12th Advanced Biology or Chemistry?

thoughts? (and yes, I am remembering to still breathe! :lol:)

A few words of advice from one who has used five of Apologia's secondary texts: This is probably not a good idea!

Start with General Science and then proceed to Physical Science. They are both valuable texts and should not be skipped, lest you run into shaky ground in high school. You're probably fine starting these in sixth grade if your son is bright and up to it, but don't freak out if it takes all of junior high on these two books. As it is, Apologia is a year ahead of what the average ps and many hs students do.

Each book builds on the previous one. General and Physical Science plant seeds for the later books. Chemistry introduces concepts that will be explored more fully in Physics. They also progress in difficulty- Chemistry and Physics are too hard for jr high students. Therefore, I highly recommend doing the books in order, that is, starting with Biology, then Chemistry followed by Physics. You can follow these with whatever your son is interested in, or you can stop science altogether. If he has the desire, he can easily do a whole text in a semester, but don't make him or even let him until tenth or eleventh grade. The advanced books are optional, after all.

Keep in mind that these are challenging courses, despite their conversational presentation of difficult concepts so that any student can understand them. Take your time and don't push your son beyond his limits, lest he come to hate science. I haven't used their elementary science books, but you may want to think twice about doing three in a year. I would suggest devoting your time to Math and English; science in elementary school is overrated. General Science provides a solid foundation regardless of previous scientific knowledge.

Whatever you do, don't try Physics in seventh grade. Wait until your son has had two years of algebra and one of geometry before even attempting. Chemistry needs at least a year of algebra. Even Physical Science needs pre-algebra.

Apologia is simply the best science curriculum out there. Stick with it!

[Karin]

. He's actually a she.
Regards,
Kareni

:o oops. Thanks, because this will make things much easier for my second one who has little interest in science, but lots of interest in history.

[FloridaLisa]

A few words of advice from one who has used five of Apologia's secondary texts: This is probably not a good idea!

Start with General Science and then proceed to Physical Science. They are both valuable texts and should not be skipped, lest you run into shaky ground in high school. You're probably fine starting these in sixth grade if your son is bright and up to it, but don't freak out if it takes all of junior high on these two books. As it is, Apologia is a year ahead of what the average ps and many hs students do.

Just a minor disagreement here as we've had a different experience. I don't think it's necessary to do *any* formal science before starting Apologia's biology in 8th or 9th *so long as* your student has the study skills and reading skills in place. Many cut their teeth and develop these skills in the junior high years through General and Physical. But the information in the books is not at all a prerequisite to Apologia's biology or chemistry; each of those texts can stand alone.

Happy planning! Just write in pencil! :tongue_smilie:
Lisa

[

[Sharon in MD]

We didn't use Apologias general or physical books and we had no trouble starting with bio. I have many friends who have started with bio and had no trouble. I also know folks who do start at the general science course and progress from there.

I think what matters in that they have reasonable science background and as Lisa said good study skills.

I've always held to the idea that there are many ways to skin the educational cat.

[jellogirl]

Just a minor disagreement here as we've had a different experience. I don't think it's necessary to do *any* formal science before starting Apologia's biology in 8th or 9th *so long as* your student has the study skills and reading skills in place. Many cut their teeth and develop these skills in the junior high years through General and Physical. But the information in the books is not at all a prerequisite to Apologia's biology or chemistry; each of those texts can stand alone.

Happy planning! Just write in pencil! :tongue_smilie:
Lisa

[
Very true. Perhaps I meant that Biology is not for seventh graders. However, I will point out that General Science covers the human body, which is not revisited until Advanced Biology. And Physical Science covers weather, the earth, and the solar system in addition to motion and energy topics covered more fully in Chemistry and Physics. So while you certainly can skip these books, these are also great books that deserve to be studied.

Write in pencil? Yes, definitely. There is no need to plan high school in detail until your student is about to enter 9th grade, as long as you have prepared well.

[Karin]

Very true. Perhaps I meant that Biology is not for seventh graders. However, I will point out that General Science covers the human body, which is not revisited until Advanced Biology. And Physical Science covers weather, the earth, and the solar system in addition to motion and energy topics covered more fully in Chemistry and Physics. So while you certainly can skip these books, these are also great books that deserve to be studied.

Write in pencil? Yes, definitely. There is no need to plan high school in detail until your student is about to enter 9th grade, as long as you have prepared well.


We studied some of these areas separately. My dd did an entire year on the human body because she loved it using two trade books and an Anatomy Coloring Book, and did her middle school Physics out of a fun trade book. She is being forced to do Physical Science formally, though, because she has no desire to do it on her own. This way she doesn't have to do it in high school.

[LoriM]

I don't think there is a "normal" sequence of science, any more than there is a "normal" sequence of literature. I suppose we do a chronological sequence of history...but is that normal? Not so much for today's PS students, but certainly for WTM kids!

I paired my science choices for my children in 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th to match the historical period we were studying. I chose topics in a sort of traditional order, using the spine text to guide us through Life Science topics from cells to human systems, then Earth Science topics from Rocks and Minerals to Weather and Climates. In seventh grade, we moved to college textbooks as the "spine" text, but continued to read real books and write, write, write, and do tons of labs and experiments. So, we moved on to Physical Science (and studied force, gravity, mass, Newtonian Laws, etc.) and ended in 8th grade with a combination of Geography and Astronomy.

High school was even more fun. We did another pretty traditional sequence with Biology, Chemistry, Physics, but finished those three by age 16. Then she did Chemistry and Physics at the community college as well.

Easy, peesy. I think the trick with science is just to spend a routine number of hours per week on science. Read more, think more, learn more. Next topic. Next lab. Next question. :)

[jellogirl]

I don't think there is a "normal" sequence of science, any more than there is a "normal" sequence of literature.

On the contrary, there is a very specific order encouraged by public schools and textbook publishers alike, at least for the secondary years. Exceptions are rare, though most common in the higher grades. Note that Apologia is a year ahead of this sequence.

7th.... Hodge-podge . . . . . . Math 7 or Pre-Algebra
8th.... Hodge-podge . . . . . . Pre-Algebra or Algebra 1
9th.... Physical Science . . . Algebra 1 or Geometry
10th... Biology . . . . . . . . . . Geometry or Algebra 2
11th... Chemistry . . . . . . . . Algebra 2 or Pre-Calc
12th... Physics . . . . . . . . . .Pre-Calc or Calc or Business Math or nothing