xpost: middle school writing programs (Michael Clay Thompson & others)

[matroyshka]

I posted this on the high school list because I was hoping to hear from someone who'd already used these, but no bites yet, so I thought I'd try over here too.

I got good feedback yesterday about IEW Ancient History, but I'm looking ahead to next year and beyond as well, and these are other that intrigue me, but I'm not sure which to use when (or which to pick over the other).

What grade range would you think appropriate for the following curricula? Could either be used in 7th or 8th grade?

Lively Art of Writing
Writer's Workshop

Also, two more literature-oriented programs interest me - would you use them instead of a writing program that year (they appear to have at least some writing), or alongside one - would using one of them in the same year as one of the curricula above, for example, be overkill?

Literary Lessons from Lord of the Rings
Windows on the World

And finally, has anyone used the writing programs from Michael Clay Thompson? I see a lot of people post about the elementary grammar stuff, but I don't think I've ever seen one about the middle school or higher levels, or the writing, poetry or vocabulary elements. I'm most interested in hearing from anyone who's used:

Paragraph Town
Essay Voyage
Caesar's English 1 & 2
Building Poems
A World of Poetry
Advanced Academic Writing

Anyone know how Essay Voyage would compare to Lively Art of Writing in teaching essays?

[matroyshka]

:lurk5: Anyone??

[Lori D.]

Also, two more literature-oriented programs interest me - would you use them instead of a writing program that year (they appear to have at least some writing), or alongside one - would using one of them in the same year as one of the curricula above, for example, be overkill?

Literary Lessons from Lord of the Rings
Windows on the World


We loved LLftLotR! We used it with grades 8 and 9 last year. To make LLftLotR a complete English course you will definitely you will need:
- a separate writing program
- a separate grammar program

No, that wouldn't be overkill to use other separate language arts programs with it. There is no grammar in Lit. Lessons from the Lord of the Rings (LLftLotR), and only a handful of suggested writing assignment ideas -- no writing instruction.

LLftLotR took us approximately 4 hours a week (2 hours/week for reading the books (which we did in the evenings as family time 1-2 nights a week), and about 2 hours/week during the school day to go over the additional notes, discuss the discussion questions, and go over the additional units of material.

In addition doing LLftLotR last year, the boys each did a separate writing and grammar program, additional solo reading, and together we did a "Great Books" study of about 7 ancient classics.

LLftLotR could be done as young as grade 6, as long as you do it together, and don't worry about the comprehension and vocabulary "busywork" pages of "fill in the blanks". I'd say LLftLotR would be of most interest to a student up through 10th grade, possibly 11th.


This year we are doing Windows on the World (WotW) -- another very worthwhile and enjoyable program -- and you can *easily* add an additional grammar program, an additional writing program, and additional literature readings -- in fact, you would *need* to add in all the rest in order to make WotW worth a full English credit. Again, no grammar; no writing instruction, just a handful of suggested writing assignment ideas. Most of the "meat" of this program in learning how to re-read multiple times for annotating, and then discussing.

We are spreading WotW out over 2-3 years, doing about 1/3 of it this year as the short story portion of our literature. I would guess if you were to do the program as written over the course of one year, it would take you about 60-90 minutes per week. Most of the time is involved in reading/re-reading the short stories several times and annotating in the margins.

I'd say WotW is idea for 9th/10th grades, but very worthwhile up through 12th grade if you've never annotated before, and could be done by a mature 8th grader.


Don't know if any of that is of help. Best of luck, whatever you go with! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[matroyshka]

Thanks so much, Lori! That is extremely helpful!

[HiddenJewel]

Regarding IEW's Windows to the World, I was told by another user that although there is a lot of writing required in it, she felt that it was not a complete writing program by itself. By her description of the types of assignments I wonder if has a lot of practice but not much instruction in writing. I will be using it alongside Classical Writing Diogenes:Maxim. I also have The Elegant Essay which looks really good. But I have to figure out how to do it without overkill.

[EKS]

I have used LLLOTR with my son. For us, the nit-picky comprehension questions were too much. We dropped the program a third of the way through *however* we are still reading LOTR and using LLLOTR just for its "Additional Notes" section which is where she delivers the literary lessons. Since we started that things have been much better.

I have reviewed MCT's materials extensively and own the complete sets of the Grammar Island and the Magic Lens Vol 1 levels (including Advanced Academic Writing 1). The MCT program is extremely interesting and I think it would be fabulous if implemented properly. However, I don't think that I could implement them properly myself (and I have a strong background in grammar and writing). There isn't enough... something. I don't even know what is missing, but I just don't think I could teach the program and do it justice.

[matroyshka]

I have reviewed MCT's materials extensively and own the complete sets of the Grammar Island and the Magic Lens Vol 1 levels (including Advanced Academic Writing 1). The MCT program is extremely interesting and I think it would be fabulous if implemented properly. However, I don't think that I could implement them properly myself (and I have a strong background in grammar and writing). There isn't enough... something. I don't even know what is missing, but I just don't think I could teach the program and do it justice.

Thanks - the Island level doesn't do much for me. The Town level looks more interesting, but reading more, it looks like the writing section is just a book that talks about writing - no assignments? Could I just have the kids read it and do something else alongside?

Does the Advanced Academic Writing have assignments, or is it still just tips and talk? Although, at that level, you'd pretty much just apply that to whatever you happen to be doing an assigned paper on anway? Any idea what you would add? From the samples, I really like the way it goes through the elements of writing a research paper, but my kids aren't up for that level of detail yet, I don't think.

And the Grammar section - either there's something in there that doesn't happen to be included in the samples, but it doesn't seem like all that much to me (at least in elementary). Where for Poetry, Vocab and Writing I think I'd back my kids up to Town level to start, even the Voyage level of the Grammar looks to me like stuff they already know... I realize as I'm asking this that those are the two levels you don't have... :tongue_smilie: Anyway, I'm half-wondering if I could use the rest of program without the grammar, at least in elementary, and maybe add in a more assignment-oriented writing program. I like the 4-level analysis, but couldn't I just have them do that in the practice book? I know more than enough grammar to tell them what's up there.

The Magic Lens level looks much more meaty. What do you think of it?

[Momto2Ns]

:lurk5:

[teacalm]

Does the Advanced Academic Writing have assignments, or is it still just tips and talk? Although, at that level, you'd pretty much just apply that to whatever you happen to be doing an assigned paper on anway? Any idea what you would add? From the samples, I really like the way it goes through the elements of writing a research paper, but my kids aren't up for that level of detail yet, I don't think.

The Advanced Academic Writing have assignments but it the book does not really take you steps, itty bitty steps, with it. It's assuming that you already know that part so you can forge ahead and do the writing assignment.


The Magic Lens level looks much more meaty. What do you think of it?

Magic Lens is dense and intense. However, if a kid going through this book already have a previous good command of grammar, then, this book will be a review. It ties in all the parts of speech, parts of sentence, phrases and clauses together. The workbook is the application part. I have been using this practice not only with what is contained in the practice workbook, but also, in my son's writing and grammar work. We took a break from Rod and Staff 7, and instead is using Abeka G&C I. For example, taking a sentence from Abeka's G&C, I would ask my son. What is the verb? Is it transitive or intransitive? If transitive, does it have an object? If the predicate is a linking verb, does it have a subject complement? IF so, is it nominative or adjective complement? Does this sentence contains a clause? If so, is it dependent or independent? What is the phrase "decorating" or modifying? Is it an adverbial phrase? You can keep on going and going until you're down to one word that you have to classify. It's an awesome exercise which takes time but the benefit is "priceless". To make it short, I use parts of Magic Lens, but I don't use it like how MCT wrote it. I took parts of it that I think will enhanced and open up my kids mind to how grammar is not complex at all.

[Lori D.]

Regarding IEW's Windows to the World, I was told by another user that although there is a lot of writing required in it, she felt that it was not a complete writing program by itself. By her description of the types of assignments I wonder if has a lot of practice but not much instruction in writing.



Actually, Windows to the World has very specific writing instruction -- BUT it is only about how to write a literary analysis essay. It is the best instruction I've seen for that type of writing. There are also writing assignments throughout the program, but geared around literary analysis, not other types of writing (i.e. research paper; persuasive essay; process paper (how to do something); etc.). Hope that helps clarify. Warmest regards, Lori D.

[buddhabelly]

Paragraph Town has lots of assignments. They are separate; look in the very last section of the TM. It is pages 111-207 and much of it is not in the student book.

Julie

[matroyshka]

LOL - funny to see this thread pop to the top - it's over a year old!!

I have since bought and used tons of MCT stuff (own all three elementary levels now) and think it's wonderful.

But to all those who call it the flavor of the day, here's proof positive that when I asked about MCT a bit over a year ago, not only did no one offer me Kool Aid, I could barely get a drop of water! :tongue_smilie: The response from today is the first one that answered the question I'd posed about if Paragraph Town had actual assigments (and not only do I know that it does now, we've completed them all. :D)

[Jen3boys]

LOL - funny to see this thread pop to the top - it's over a year old!!

I have since bought and used tons of MCT stuff (own all three elementary levels now) and think it's wonderful.

But to all those who call it the flavor of the day, here's proof positive that when I asked about MCT a bit over a year ago, not only did no one offer me Kool Aid, I could barely get a drop of water! :tongue_smilie: The response from today is the first one that answered the question I'd posed about if Paragraph Town had actual assigments (and not only do I know that it does now, we've completed them all. :D)

:lol: I guess you could answer your own question now, Matroyshka!

[radiobrain]

I was seriously confused! :001_huh:

Then I laughed! :D

[Capt_Uhura]

Call me confused as well! :lol:

[MariannNOVA]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:HuZIXxb3qFXpGM:http://images.clipartof.com/small270/67231-Royalty-Free-RF-Clipart-Illustration-Of-A-Yellow-Confused-Emoticon-Face-Version-1.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.clipartof.com/small270/67231-Royalty-Free-RF-Clipart-Illustration-Of-A-Yellow-Confused-Emoticon-Face-Version-1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://linana94.blogspot.com/2009/12/beatiful-nightmare.html&usg=__tEFPANC1y7B2NCjsheLs67W5188=&h=270&w=265&sz=19&hl=en&start=54&sig2=F8i7-1EKMI-3Ul4buWT8Hg&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=HuZIXxb3qFXpGM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2527confused%2Blooking%2Bsmiley%2527 %26start%3D40%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3 D20%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=bc6aS4zXEIX6lwfCmeHoDg) at first........now it makes sense.:leaving:

[buddhabelly]

Just wanted to clarify that I didn't resurrect the old thread; it was Lori D.

Not that I'm defensive or anything. :tongue_smilie:

Julie

[Shawna in Texas]

LOL - funny to see this thread pop to the top - it's over a year old!!

I have since bought and used tons of MCT stuff (own all three elementary levels now) and think it's wonderful.

But to all those who call it the flavor of the day, here's proof positive that when I asked about MCT a bit over a year ago, not only did no one offer me Kool Aid, I could barely get a drop of water! :tongue_smilie: The response from today is the first one that answered the question I'd posed about if Paragraph Town had actual assigments (and not only do I know that it does now, we've completed them all. :D)

:lol: I thought maybe you'd lost your mind.