Anyone know anything about St. John's College in Annapolis?

[coopers5]

I am wondering if there is anyone who has had a child to attend there or knows someone who has. The idea of continuing her classical learning in their unique environment looks very appealing to my daughter.
I did wonder how much deviation there is from any kind of Christian worldview in their teaching and what kind of financial aid people have been able to obtain there.
Any advice or "review" would be greatly appreciated at this point. I am "all ears."
Thanks!
Jo

[Margaret in CO]

Well, I know they play the Naval Academy every year in croquet! :D

Actually, we have a number of friends whose children have gone to SJ in NM--same curr, different campus. Many Johnnies spend one year at the "other" campus. From my visiting with friends, they are not terribly kind to traditional Christianity. They take the stance that everything can be reasoned through--not much room for faith. However, many come back to their faith as seniors or so. None of our friends have had much financial aid. There IS a lot of drinking at both campuses.

You might look through ISI's Choosing the Right College for more insights.

[Mary in WA]

Our sons went to the Naval Academy right down the street from St. Johns. They said the midshipmen laughed at the students at St. Johns because they spent all their time reading the Great Books and did not learn anything of value in seeking a career after college. My son, always the joker so I am not sure if this is gossip or true, said that they did not receive grades: they just passed their classes. Of course, the contrast was tremendous. One time my son got an 89.8% and his teacher at the Academy would not bump him up to a 90% for an A. Which was fine with us.

Besides the possible exaggeration from my son, you might want to check things out to see if they do give real grades, and if they offer anything of value in career building.

[Plaid Dad]

From reports of friends who attended St. John's, I would not consider it friendly to traditional Christianity - quite the opposite, in fact. There are, however, a growing number of Christian colleges based on the Great Books idea. Most of them are Catholic and can be found on this list (http://www.love2learn.net/hsinfo/college.htm). Maybe someone else can point you toward similar schools with a Protestant affiliation. Good luck!

[Veronica in VA]

I have a friend who went there. I haven't stayed in touch with her in recent years, but I know she was somewhat anti-Christian, though I don't know if that was from attending St. John's or she was that way before she went. They don't give grades, at least not in the Freshman year. They do evaluations. Each professor sits down with the student and tells they how they are doing, talks about their strengths, and how they can improve. I think that is actually more helpful than grades. I have heard that there is a lot of drinking on campus.

Hope that helps,

Veronica

[Eliana]

I have a friend who went there. I haven't stayed in touch with her in recent years, but I know she was somewhat anti-Christian, though I don't know if that was from attending St. John's or she was that way before she went. They don't give grades, at least not in the Freshman year. They do evaluations. Each professor sits down with the student and tells they how they are doing, talks about their strengths, and how they can improve. I think that is actually more helpful than grades. I have heard that there is a lot of drinking on campus.

Hope that helps,

Veronica

Grades are awarded, they are just not shown to the student. Instead the student gets a 'don rag' - a discussion of his progress to date...but there are actual grades on the transcript.

[Eliana]

Our sons went to the Naval Academy right down the street from St. Johns. They said the midshipmen laughed at the students at St. Johns because they spent all their time reading the Great Books and did not learn anything of value in seeking a career after college. My son, always the joker so I am not sure if this is gossip or true, said that they did not receive grades: they just passed their classes. Of course, the contrast was tremendous. One time my son got an 89.8% and his teacher at the Academy would not bump him up to a 90% for an A. Which was fine with us.

Besides the possible exaggeration from my son, you might want to check things out to see if they do give real grades, and if they offer anything of value in career building.

Those who attend St John's generally believe that education is not supposed to be synonymous with career building, that education for its own sake is inherently valuable.

[GVA]

My aunt did her graduate work at the Santa Fe one and remains involved with them as some kind of advisor, and I know several people who have sent their children there over the years. When I was in college myself in New Mexico I had several friends through Intervarsity who were students there.

Personally, I wouldn't send any of my children there. If I had a child who wanted a great books school for college, I'd pick a Christian college. In fact if either of them wants a more liberal-arts oriented major, we'll be looking at only Christian colleges.

[coopers5]

Thank you all for all of this feedback. Tremendously helpful.
Please, anyone else who has info, post, as well.
God bless you.

[coopers5]

Hi,
What is the ISI guide? I mean what does the ISI stand for ? Thanks for your help.
Jo

[Plaid Dad]

Intercollegiate Studies Institute (http://www.isi.org/).

[DollyM]

The whole title of the guidebook is

Choosing the Right College - The Whole Truth about America's Top Schools

by ISI

Also, on their website, there are links to other publications they put out. A very good resource.

[Tina in Ouray]

Jo,

I can't tell you anything about St. John's in Annapolis, but if your daughter is interested in a classical Christian undergraduate program like this, I suggest that she check out Gutenberg College in Eugene, OR. I have a son who is a senior at Gutenberg this year. I can't recommend this school highly enough! It's unique, it's Christian in its outlook, and the price is right.

I'd be more than happy to correspond with you or your daughter privately if you would like to know more.

Tina in Ouray, CO

http://gutenberg.edu/about_gutenberg/

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Our sons went to the Naval Academy right down the street from St. Johns. They said the midshipmen laughed at the students at St. Johns because they spent all their time reading the Great Books and did not learn anything of value in seeking a career after college. My son, always the joker so I am not sure if this is gossip or true, said that they did not receive grades: they just passed their classes. Of course, the contrast was tremendous. One time my son got an 89.8% and his teacher at the Academy would not bump him up to a 90% for an A. Which was fine with us.

Besides the possible exaggeration from my son, you might want to check things out to see if they do give real grades, and if they offer anything of value in career building.

And yet, amazingly, many (umm, most?) St. Johns grads have careers. (Now how did that happen? :cool: ) Just as many homeschool grads whose parents do GB study and traditional track mathematics somehow manage to get into university and/or be successful in life.

I think the grading difference might also be more subtle. They are not expected to "just" pass their classes. They are expected to dig deep and strive for mastery. Understanding might be quantifiable, but I'll put the level of understanding via SJ semester-long discussion against my pitiful scantron multiple-guess A's any day. I never gave grades when we homeschooled and I guess that contrast was tremendous as we discussed and wrote and discovered and discussed some more with genuine interest all around, but somehow my kids were A students when they went back into traditional schooling. (And so far for either of them, no scantrons or multiple-guess type evaluations have been offered them. Essays, direct recall, and critical-thinking exams all, and they've risen to the occasion despite their earlier "no grading" mommy policy.) The grades are there if the student chooses to transfer, but they are not there as the sign that true learning did or did not take place.

For specific career path involving technical study, I think most SJ grads expect the masters degree or apprenticeship to teach them what they need to know. As to value? I know a whole lot of people who would not consider my homeschool (and indeed, my children's intensively literature-based private high schooling) to be of "value." I mean, why do you need all that Latin and history and GB study? You should just study what you need to know to have a career, right? A plumber or engineer or doctor doesn't need all that extraneous learning.

I guess it all boils down to what one values as true education. I personally would be mighty proud if one of my kids chose St. Johns, and would have even in my days as a committed conservative evangelical Christian. Unfortunately, we and they probably will never be able to afford such a school. Not a whole lot of financial aid available there.

As to drinking from another post, my son is in a fraternity where there's a boatload of drinking that goes on. And yet he and a handful of friends make the choice not to, though opportunity is certainly at his very fingertips.

No matter what sort of college one goes to, one makes those choices as an adult. Heck, the now president of Bob Jones University once was removed from the school (or perhaps the Academy?) for drinking. The most protective environment in the world won't make your son or daughter say no, and the most inviting environment in the world won't make him or her say yes.

Edit: In the interest of full disclosure and not that it matters to anybody: My son was a A/B/and on one occasion C student. He was capable of being an A student, but lacked... focus. :-)

[coopers5]

Thanks so very much for the info on this book. I have ordered it after reading the excerpts available on the ISI website. It does look like just the thing we need.

[coopers5]

To Tina:
Thank you - I will look into this. Our difficulty with your suggestion of somewhere in Oregon, however, is we are in SC. I have two children already who are in colleges somewhat far away from home. One in Ohio, and the other in Mississippi. We aren't afraid to have our kids far from us, but the transportation issues do get tiresome. We were really going to try to avoid so many of those difficulties, if we possibly could, with this, our last child.
Thanks again for taking the time to post. God bless. This forum is wonderful.

[Tina in Ouray]

Jo,

Believe me, I understand! We have three kids in college this year. We're in Colorado, one son is in Oregon, and two daughters are in Texas. Transportation (and very different school schedules) does get tiresome. Knowing what I now know about Gutenberg, though, I would send my child half way around the world to attend. (In fact, amidst the very, very small student body, there are at least two students from half-way around the world!) The thing is that there really aren't "equivalent" schools to choose from that are also closer. Gutenberg is just so unique. So even though "proximity" was one of the things that we tried to consider in making college choices, in the end it was a factor that we opted to overlook. Some things are just more important than other things. Besides, once you have to fly a student to school, it isn't that much more trouble to fly them a little further.

I don't know how this story worked out, but when I visited Gutenberg two years ago in the fall there was a high school student visiting who lived within 30 minutes of St. John's (Annapolis). Both she and her parents were hands-down sold on Gutenberg over St. John's.

By the way, I really like that ISI book on colleges, too. Very helpful.

Tina in Ouray, CO

[Eliana]

Unfortunately, we and they probably will never be able to afford such a school. Not a whole lot of financial aid available there.

Things might have changed, but I went to SJC with no out-of-pocket expense (grants from the college, no-interest loan from the college, federal grants, federally subsidized student loans, and an on-campus work-study position which covered books and living expenses).

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Things might have changed, but I went to SJC with no out-of-pocket expense (grants from the college, no-interest loan from the college, federal grants, federally subsidized student loans, and an on-campus work-study position which covered books and living expenses).

That is good to know. Thanks for this.

The fact that you went to the school only moves it up another notch in my estimation.

[Eliana]

I am wondering if there is anyone who has had a child to attend there or knows someone who has. The idea of continuing her classical learning in their unique environment looks very appealing to my daughter.
I did wonder how much deviation there is from any kind of Christian worldview in their teaching and what kind of financial aid people have been able to obtain there.


I've been trying to frame a constructive response to this, and am having difficulty.

My parents both graduated from SJC, I attended for less than 2 years, and a student of my mother's (and close friend of the family) graduated from the Santa Fe campus.

I have no neutral reactions to anything about SJC.

My parents' experience there was just short of idyllic and the education they received was phenomenal... and before I ever went there it had been a profound part of my own education.

Perhaps my Dad would have been an incredible person to chat with... but I think his tendencies to quote Kant or Hegel or modern poets or random Greek philosophers (in Greek) can be traced to his years at SJC. ... and his skills as a discussion partner were certainly honed there.

My mother would certainly have been an idealist anyway, but her life as a passionate intellectual really took off at SJC. (And isn't it cool that I can say that my mother's senior thesis defended Don Quixote's sanity?) She found both her voice and support for her belief in learning for its own sake.


I had a lot of 'firsts' at SJC:

One of our seminar's on the Illiad was so transcendent, so incredible an experience that a group of us stood outside together afterward reeling... one said that if this was all she got out of her 4 years there it would be worth it ... another said that anti-drug campaigns should start promoting the mind-altering high you could get from a literary discussion.

I'd never been anywhere (other than my own home) where people would be moved to tears, to anger, to passionate outbursts over excerpts from Plutarch.

...where school dances were exclusively waltzing and swing dance

...where croquet was the school sport (with crew as a close second).

I opted out of dissecting chick embryos and hatched 4 baby chicks instead (Hektor, Achilleus, Odysseus, and Aeneas, if you must know.)

On weekends I had to thread my way around passed out drunks to get from the cafeteria back to my dorm.

I was s*xually assaulted and received less than no support from the school, on any level.

Although we read Great Books, the academic standards were far lower than in my parents' day - some tutors required no writing at all, for seminar or for language tutorial. (Rumor has it that the SF campus has higher standards, but still nothing like in the golden era when most of the tutors were the products of incredible European classical educations.)

Although people who hated science in high school loved SJC science, those of us who loved science were driven batty by the program (which changes regularly - the premise is fabulous and some of the readings are amazing, but, last I heard, they really hadn't gotten it 'right' yet - though the junior and senior years are supposed to be much better.)

I think don rags are a wonderful way of doing feedback, but if they aren't going to show grades to the students at the time, they really shouldn't be giving them at all. (My mother saw her grades for the first time when she was preparing to apply to graduate school and wanted to know how high she could aim.)


When the main learning tool is group discussion, you are very dependent on the quality of your group. I had an incredible group, but the flavor of the Febbies who joined us the next year (Febbies start their freshman year with the second semester and go through the summer, then join the rest of the class in the fall of the next year.) were such a cynical group, and disparaged anyone who spoke from passion and or conviction - being an idealist (and a religious person to boot) made my reactions very suspect in their eyes - it was a very depressing experience and one of the main reasons I left the school.

For me the atmosphere was a shock - but I was so innocent that I think that would have been true at most colleges.

I made the really stupid mistake of choosing a school without an Orthodox Jewish presence at all - I went to High Holiday Services at the Naval Academy chapel, it was very weird. I was so confident in my own spiritual grounding that I discounted the need for a community.

Until the influx of the cynics (and even then the hostility was only to my views in seminar, not my personal choices), I did not find SJC to be at all hostile to my religious observances or perspectives - no one tried to pressure me into drinking, substance use, or promiscuity, though all these things were very dramatically present.

My mother's student had a magical four years at Santa Fe. He went from being a stereotypical forgetful scientist type to an articulate, charismatic young man. He blossomed at SJC; it was the best place he could ever have gone to.


All of us had *very* positive experiences with financial aid, though I don't know what their policies are now.

If you are looking for a Xtian environment for your child, SJC isn't it.
But, despite all my criticisms of it, it has something I don't think the other Great Books programs have(*), something very special. I think it is the residual impact of the great tutors who helped start the program and their amazing successors. (I'm not being completely fair, there are still a few of the great tutors left there, and I had did have the amazing priviledge of having a Language tutorial with one of them - WOW!!) My time there immeasurably enriched me on many levels, and even the things that don't work as they could/should have a lot of value...

If you have any other questions I could help you with, let me know!

Eliana


*At one point I spoke, in some depth, with representatives of a couple of Great Books or Great Books-like schools, and although they had enthusiasm and great reading lists, they didn't have seasoning, or depth, or real experience, it was hard to see how they could help guide incredible discussion, how they could make Seminars, for example, not just a discussion but a life-altering learning experience.

[Caroline]

Thank your honest response. I had a high school friend who attended SJC in Annapolis in the early 1990's. It is nice to "meet" someone else who went to school there. I have always thought it was an interesting place.

[coopers5]

Tina,
Thanks for your continued response. So great to "meet" you and hear of some of our similar experiences. I am not closed to the idea of looking further into the school and did visit the website briefly and liked what I saw - including the theological underpinnings I was able to pick up on. How would I communicate with you privately, by the way, should we choose to pursue this? Do we get each other's email by clicking on the names of the posts on here? I'm a little unfamiliar w/the new board.
Thanks again,
Jo