Math is taking my dd FOREVER!!!

[arcara]

Let me start by saying my my oldest is slow by nature. Slow showering, slow eating, and slow with school work.

But, math is taking her forever, and we do it first thing in the morning which can put her behind for the whole day. She's in Saxon 6/5. She says she likes math if I ask her, and she does very well in it. She typically misses 1-2 problems per day, and usually makes 100 on the tests. I like Saxon because of the constant review, but I wonder if there's something about it that's making her slow. I do require every part (mental math, fact practice, DIVE, and all mixed practice problems). I'm afraid that if I leave something out that we won't get the full benefits of the program. I only require 3 lessons per week, or 2 lessons and a test on weeks when there's a test (every other week).

What would you suggest? I hate switching if the program is working, but I wonder if something like TT would be more interesting and make her a little faster?? But, I don't want to sacrifice quality. My husband is a Ph.D. math college professor, so I can't slack when it comes to math :)

[fractalgal]

Let me start by saying my my oldest is slow by nature. Slow showering, slow eating, and slow with school work.

But, math is taking her forever, and we do it first thing in the morning which can put her behind for the whole day. She's in Saxon 6/5. She says she likes math if I ask her, and she does very well in it. She typically misses 1-2 problems per day, and usually makes 100 on the tests. I like Saxon because of the constant review, but I wonder if there's something about it that's making her slow. I do require every part (mental math, fact practice, DIVE, and all mixed practice problems). I'm afraid that if I leave something out that we won't get the full benefits of the program. I only require 3 lessons per week, or 2 lessons and a test on weeks when there's a test (every other week).

What would you suggest? I hate switching if the program is working, but I wonder if something like TT would be more interesting and make her a little faster?? But, I don't want to sacrifice quality. My husband is a Ph.D. math college professor, so I can't slack when it comes to math :)

I would run it by your husband and see what he suggests. If you do decide to switch, I would ask for his advice and constructive critique of any new curriculum you are considering. ;)

In our experience my daughter did Saxon 5/4 and Singapore Level 3 last fall. I felt comfortable tweaking them a bit. For example I would group the Saxon lessons because my daughter picks up things quickly and then choose problems from successive problem sets that I thought were most important. If there were two of the same problem types but with different numbers I'd choose the more challenging one.

Have you ever considered Singapore Math? I think Level 2 and up is better than Level 1. Your daughter may like it; I know my daughter does.

Good Luck :)

[arcara]

We do Singapore's CWP once a week and she loves it! Well, let me step back a bit on that. She really loved it at 1st, but now I feel that she's getting bored with it. I think the problems have lost their challenge for her. She's very good at word problems. Maybe she's ready to move onto the next level. I started her with CWP 3 since this was her 1st year with this.

[Lovedtodeath]

I have to point to every math problem and say it for her. It also helps if I put a card with a hole in it over the problem so that she cannot see the others. Maybe the whole page of numbers is just hard for her to keep track of.

[fractalgal]

We do Singapore's CWP once a week and she loves it! Well, let me step back a bit on that. She really loved it at 1st, but now I feel that she's getting bored with it. I think the problems have lost their challenge for her. She's very good at word problems. Maybe she's ready to move onto the next level. I started her with CWP 3 since this was her 1st year with this.

Another thing you might consider are the IP workbooks. They are more interesting than both the workbook and the CWP because they have more variety. There are some problems of the same difficulty as the CWP, but not all of them are written in the same form. It's another idea for you.

I still say consult your math expert husband. :)

[Stacy in NJ]

Your 3rd grader is doing 6/5? I think that it probably requires quite a bit more writing than most 3rd grade math programs. You have a few options: 1) use a less writing intense program like Singapore 2) use 6/5 modified for less work/writing and get through math quickly 3) use it as is and continue to move slowly through it.

There probably is no perfect solution.

[Cadam]

I went to a college prep private school, very high academics blah, blah blah...... we were only ever required to do the odd or even problems in Saxon. I was under the impression that it is set up that way so that all concepts get covered in both the odds and the evens so you assign one and then if the student needs more practice you can do more.

Don't be a slave to the curriculum! make it work for you! THat is much easier than switching from something that is working.

[OhElizabeth]

Acara, a couple thoughts, as someone with a girl just one year ahead. One, I've only recently come to realize my dd needs WAY more outdoors time than what she was getting. I send her outside and make her run laps for 20 minutes before she starts any schoolwork. If she comes back grouchy, I send her out for more. Their bodies are starting to change, even at this age, and they just need more fresh air and running. It works wonders around here, so you might try it.

Two, I don't start with math. She used to like math, but somewhere between K5 and this age, math became WORK. Unfortunately, she's sort of allergic to work and prone only to fun. When it ceases to be fun, it's suddenly ugghy. Even if she can do it, it's ugghy. So to cut this, I begin with something she really, really likes. And my brilliant, or at least very observant, dh then suggested I follow up the math time with something else she also likes! What's working for us really well right now as that starter thing is Complete-a-Sketch. I got it from Timberdoodle, and I just let her work at it for a while, however long seems reasonable, sometimes more, sometimes less. It makes the start of her day more pleasant, sets us off on a good foot. And I follow up math with history, since she's a history lover. I resisited this for so long, thinking I needed to get all the heavy stuff (math and LA) done in the morning. For us, doing math *and* LA in the morning just made the whole morning work, work, work. We're the type to get our stuff done in the afternoon if it's important (LA), so it works fine for us to push it to then. It might be something to consider, a real restructuring of your day.

Third, make sure the amount of time she is spending is age-appropriate. 35 minutes for an 8 yo is PLENTY. I don't care what it is, how important it is, or what the curriculum says, at 35 minutes (or whatever her reasonable tolerance is) turn it off, shut it off, and put it away! I know that sounds drastic, but since I've started doing that, our days are going so much better. She does her fact drill on Flashmaster, we do the lesson together, then she has her workbook pages of written work. When the reasonable time allotment is done, I matter of factly say to close the workbooks and take them to the dinner table to do as homework if they aren't done. That's it. Then we move on to our next subject, the fun one (history!) and have a snack. That means it's no skin off my hide if she dawdled, because Daddy is going to know all about it and see it (and follow up with it, cha-ching) in the evening. No more cajoling, no more rushing. It's just matter of fact that math time is over and you'll finish it later on your own time. But if that is happening constantly, it may be a clue of further issues (expecting too much, not enough proficiency to be fast at the material, etc.).

Fourth, I think it's extremely unwise to do math so few days a week. That alone may be half your problem. You can't get a routine, and you can't get fast doing that. Do it every day, every single day. Even when I was pregnant and more grouchy and unpleasant than you can believe, we did math every day, every single day. Do it. Do less math, shorter sessions, but do it every day.

Fifth (and sorry this is getting so long, lol), it may be you have a serious mismatch. Besides the obvious educational issues (spiral vs. mastery, placement, etc.), some kids are social learners or visual learners. My dd happens to be both, and maybe your dd is too? Or maybe she's something else making your approach not a good fit? I think some 3rd graders would do well with Dive, but many would need more personal interaction to succeed. My dd, on top of that, is this social bug who wants everything to have a story, a context, a family, a heritage and reason. So I put her into the BJU math, where there's a story dialogue running through the entire text. We've been reading about clouds, a girl who gets her pilot license, etc. What does it have to do with the math?? Absolutely NOTHING. But does my dd like it? Like nothing, she ADORES it, asks for the story first thing! So bend, get her some curriculum you hate but that scratches her learning style itch. My dd likes the color in the BJU math. She likes the stories, the themes, the fun elements (codes, puzzles, etc.). The BJU math happens to be VERY good btw. It has a spiral review book, but mastery style teaching with conceptual like RS and Singapore, built-in fact drill, really cool challenging problem pages (much more interesting than the repetitious CWP pages, bleh). It had all the elements I was looking for, all the things that other people piece together multiple curricula to get. Downside? You have to actually teach it. Upside, it has everything you could possibly want and is a dream for a Sociable Sue (if you've read Cathy Duffy's stuff)/visual learner. So whatever your dd is, a change in curriculum, or at least a tweaking in how you're using it, might help you cater to her better. There are free learning styles assessments at www.educate.com and also look at Cathy Duffy's learner types. No one curriculum is so much radically better than another as to stick with it when it's not working. There are many fine options, and you could probably find one that would float her boat and solve her issue.

Sixth, and finally, she might not have enough proficiency to be fast at the material. Have you done a standardized test? If her computation and conceptual scores are radically different, that would indicate her computation is slow, despite her understanding of the concepts. That means she could place into a level of Saxon that she isn't really fast enough to do at a reasonable rate. Means she needs to go into easier material that she can do more quickly and rebuild her confidence. Just something to consider. A standardized test would show you that. I finally did one last year, just the inexpensive 1970 version of the CAT available from CLP, and I KICKED MYSELF that I didn't do it earlier. Don't kick yourself; do some testing! :)

[Isa]

It sounds like your daughter is accurate in math, but could use some speed. I would suggest doing 1 minute timings every day with a goal of 60 math facts in 60 seconds. For example, you could start with addition facts up to ten, and then once your daughter gets fluent with those facts move on to a different set of facts.

Fluency is the key. Once your daughter achieves the goal of 60 math facts in 60 seconds, you should see a noticeable improvement in how quickly she finishes math.

[CalicoKat]

Let me start by saying my my oldest is slow by nature. Slow showering, slow eating, and slow with school work.

But, math is taking her forever, and we do it first thing in the morning which can put her behind for the whole day. She's in Saxon 6/5. She says she likes math if I ask her, and she does very well in it. She typically misses 1-2 problems per day, and usually makes 100 on the tests. I like Saxon because of the constant review, but I wonder if there's something about it that's making her slow. I do require every part (mental math, fact practice, DIVE, and all mixed practice problems). I'm afraid that if I leave something out that we won't get the full benefits of the program. I only require 3 lessons per week, or 2 lessons and a test on weeks when there's a test (every other week).

What would you suggest? I hate switching if the program is working, but I wonder if something like TT would be more interesting and make her a little faster?? But, I don't want to sacrifice quality. My husband is a Ph.D. math college professor, so I can't slack when it comes to math :)
we just switched to Saxon math here and it does take my dd tons of time. My dd gets distracted by the other kids, shadows, pencils, anything really to keep from concentrating. . .. :001_smile:

DH and I talked about it and we decided that she gets a set time for doing her math. If at the end of that time she's not done no problem. We move on with our together subjects. When we're done with that then she can return to her math "homework." Also she's got "after school" privileges that can't be done until her "homework" is done.

Amazingly she decided on her own that she'd rather get up earlier and start her DIVE cd and lesson before bfast so she doesn't have "homework." She's also doing the work faster with fewer distractions earlier and she' waay more motivated to get things done since we're not waiting to move onto the next subject.

[Mandy in TN]

I do require every part (mental math, fact practice, DIVE, and all mixed practice problems). I'm afraid that if I leave something out that we won't get the full benefits of the program. I only require 3 lessons per week, or 2 lessons and a test on weeks when there's a test (every other week).

What would you suggest? I hate switching if the program is working, but I wonder if something like TT would be more interesting and make her a little faster?? But, I don't want to sacrifice quality. My husband is a Ph.D. math college professor, so I can't slack when it comes to math :)

I see that you are doing Saxon 3 days each week and Singapore CWP one day each week. Does this mean that you are doing no math 3 days each week?


Day 1- Do the fact practice. Ditch DIVE. Teach the lesson yourself. Do the mental math and practice orally. Put the book up. This shouldn't take 30min. maybe closer to 20. Later in the day do CWP for no more than 20-30 min.

Day 2- Do the fact practice. Have her do the mixed problem set. Do some of the problems orally so that she doesn't need to copy all of them.

Day 3- Do the fact practice. Ditch DIVE. Teach the lesson yourself. Do the mental math and practice orally. Put the book up. This shouldn't take 30min. maybe closer to 20. Later in the day do CWP for no more than 20-30 min.

Day 4- Do the fact practice. Have her do the mixed problem set. Do some of the problems orally so that she doesn't need to copy all of them.

Day 5- Do the fact practice. Ditch DIVE. Teach the lesson yourself. Do the mental math and practice orally. Put the book up. This shouldn't take 30min. maybe closer to 20. Later in the day do CWP for no more than 20-30 min.

Day 6- Do the fact practice. Have her do the mixed problem set. Do some of the problems orally so that she doesn't need to copy all of them.

She will still only be doing 3 lessons of Saxon each week, but now she will do Singapore twice and fact practice 6 days. This will cut down on the time spent in a single day, but should increase her speed through seeing the material more frequently.

My little guy does Kumon everyday except Sunday. He only does Saxon Tuesday through Friday. We do not use the drill, because he is doing that with Kumon. Just like I suggested I do the mental math orally, I teach the lesson myself and we do the practice orally. Ds does the entire problem set, but I look through it and any little easy one step problems I allow him to just tell me the answer. Currently, Tuesday through Friday he is also doing 5-10 multiple digit subtraction with borrowing problems from the Kumon 3rd grade addition/subtraction workbook for review.

He times his Kumon, so I know that usually takes about 30min. Although we do not time Saxon, I would guess that it takes about 30 min. If he already knows the topic that the lesson is presenting it goes faster. If it is something new it may take longer. The DIVE CD doesn't know if your dd knows the math or not, so it can't move faster if she knows the material. The subtraction just takes a few minutes. We do not do these all at the same time. We spread the math throughout the day. Sometimes he will even sit in bed at night and do math.

However you do it, middle school math is just going to require more time than K-3.

HTH-
Mandy

[arcara]

Thanks for the replies. I'll try to implement some of the suggestions.

To clarify some things...
I do one day of CWP with her (on Thursdays - we have 2 hours of activites that afternoon, so it's a good day for 30 minutes of CWP). I plan for her to do the 3 Saxon lessons, or 2 lessons +test over the other 4 days, but she almost always has to finish something on Saturday, too. We definitely do 5 days of math around here! :) I don't feel that I'm requiring too much because at this pace it will take around 12 months to finish the course, which I don't mind because she is ahead in math.

She has taken standardized tests every year, and she always gets all of the questions correct. Of course, I have her take the test for her overall grade level, not for her math grade level, so it really would be a red flag if she was having trouble on the standardized tests.

I thought there was something else I wanted to add...Oh, well :)

I guess I just started thinking that maybe a more "enjoyable" program might be the answer. But, like I said, I hate to move away from Saxon without a good reason. I feel that it's very thorough, and we can follow it all the way through high school. But, then I think about those posts I've read before when people said that their children's love of math was killed by Saxon. I don't want THAT to be the issue just because I like the program.

Thanks again for your replies!