literature in foreign language and foreign maternal tongue hi school level materials

[Joan in Geneva]

We too (hi Nan) have been starting to study the Great Books, and the ones written in their original language (for us if it is French) where possible. It happens that the first one that came up on the early modern list in French is Descartes - Meditations metaphysiques- not so easy. But the "cliffnote" type of book that I have found for the philosophical type books is better than the one I had mentioned on the earlier thread.

For Descartes, we're using the one on Meditations metaphysiques from the series "les integrales de philo"...by the publisher Nathan. They have the same type of thing for Rousseau and Pascal.

I have to confess that I cheat with the English version in hand. But sometimes it is so hard to figure out where my son is because the French tend to write in very long paragraphs (which are broken into at least 2 in English), and Descartes does tend to seem to go around in circles at first glance, that it is almost easier to just struggle along in French.

Next we'll do Tartuffe. I decided that since it is a play, we would do the same that SWB suggests for Shakespeare, try to read a very simplified version, then watch a video of it, then do the text.

About French at the high school level in France, some of the publishers make one book that covers all the grammar, orthographe, etc (eg Grammaire 4e) and a separate one that covers literature and writing called (Francais 4e)...our French tutor prefers the series by BELIN. I like it myself but find some others interesting as well.

http://www.amazon.fr/Fran%C3%A7ais-2002-eleve-Nathalie-Fix-Combes/dp/2701131308/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232918118&sr=1-4

Anyway, if you want your student to go to a higher level of a language, you could try using these types of books, and they have the teachers edition as well. Is anyone out there interested in this type of thing or is it overload?

Oh yes, I saw that this is the last year for French literature AP tests...too bad.

Best,
Joan

[Jane in NC]

Next we'll do Tartuffe. I decided that since it is a play, we would do the same that SBW suggests for Shakespeare, try to read a very simplified version, then watch a video of it, then do the text.



Hi Joan,
Is there a film version of Tartuffe? We read the translation suggested by SWB in TWEM, a version by Richard Wilbur who employs rhyming couplets.

How does French of the 17th century compare to modern? Is this a problem for the student reader?

Jane (who knows Molliere in the original is beyond her--but dreams...)

[Nan in Mass]

I'll see what I still have from my French lit class in college and post it. It began very easily, with Tristan et Isault (sp?). Good thing, too. I had to look up every other word. But that is also when I discovered that one only has to do this for about the first bit of a book, and after that, you are likely to know most of the words in the book and the look-up rate slows way down.

[Joan in Geneva]

Hi Jane,

I just got the DVD and have to watch it. I'll let you know. I hope its not old French! erk, I forgot about that..

Nan, I forgot to say that it's a great idea to use the amazon.ca...I'd been thinking that I'd have no access to French materials when we move back.

Best,
Joan

[Nan in Mass]

Joan - from the other post - Is the book you give a link to both history and geography?

[Joan in Geneva]

Hi Nan,

This evening I posted all the links to the different level books on the other thread and those are all history and geography combined. It is only at level 2e (10th grade) that they are separate.

My husband's flight was cancelled due to snow yesterday so I didn't want to be online...:)

[Nan in Mass]

No problem. Thank you very much! Combined would be even more efficient GRIN. And I love the French approach. It will be much more relevent for our family.

[Nan in Mass]

These are the ones I read in one college semester (as far as I can remember - I think I'm missing one): Tristan et Iseult, La Princesse de Cleves, and Decouverte du poeme (Dufau and D'alelio, a book of poetry with questions). Despite their early dates, they were perfectly readable. Perhaps they had been rewritten in modern French? I can give full info if anyone wants to try to find these particular versions. I read them after 4 years of bad high school French and a gap of a few years. I put them in order, easiest to hardest, which is the order we read them in. We discussed them and had to write a short paper for each one. If we wrote it in French, we were allowed to have mistakes and it could be one page long. If we chose to write it in English, the prof said it had to be longer and it had better be absolutely perfect with not a single punctuation error and of much better writing quality. We all chose to write in French LOL. I'm just going to tell my son he has to write in French (despite his French being mostly oral). To prepare for this, we're doing dictation this year. I don't think I'm going to have him read La Princesse because I know he will find it boring. It is about a young wife's troubles when she falls in love with someone else.

These are the ones I'm keeping in mind for my son to read as part of his high school literature. I have no idea if they are doable or not because I haven't tried them. I know that I read Three Musketeers when I was in college just for fun and loved it, but I read it in English. I seem to remember paragraphs of description about clothing and such and I'm not sure that my son will have the patience or vocabulary to wade through them in French. We may have the same problem with the rest. And we are NOT reading Waiting for Godot LOL, which I saw in high school and totally did not appreciate.

La Chanson de Roland
Chretien de Troyes - Yvain ou le Chevalier au Lion
Trois Mousquetiers
20000 Leagues Under the Sea
Le Petit Prince
La Chanson de Roland
La Fontaine
Count of Monte Cristo
Vol de Nuit

I'm not really trying to educate him in French literature, just have him read some classics that he might enjoy. We'll see what happens. He wants to read The Aeneid in Latin, too. I have no idea how doable this is. Jane? Didn't your son have some nice readers that you liked? Can you post about them?

-Nan

[Jane in NC]

I'm not really trying to educate him in French literature, just have him read some classics that he might enjoy. We'll see what happens. He wants to read The Aeneid in Latin, too. I have no idea how doable this is. Jane? Didn't your son have some nice readers that you liked? Can you post about them?

-Nan

My son has used two of the Bolchazy Legamus transitional readers, Catullus and Ovid. These transitional readers review grammar and do sufficient hand holding on poetic structures. Ovid was more successful than Catullus--probably because my son was already familiar with the stories of the former. The love poetry of Catullus was not as meaningful, but this was really the better opportunity to study structural forms. There is a Legamus reader which covers parts of The Aeneid, which you can read about here (http://www.bolchazy.com/prod.php?cat=latin&id=5785).

We are now using other Bolchazy materials, having turned our attention to Cicero. We have Pro Archia Poeta Oratio (http://www.bolchazy.com/prod.php?cat=latin&id=6420) and De Amicitia (Selections) (http://www.bolchazy.com/prod.php?cat=latin&id=6390) as well as the AP workbook (http://www.bolchazy.com/prod.php?cat=latin&id=6439) which focuses on Cicero.

I am very impressed with everything that we have purchased from Bolchazy. Whether my son takes an online course or carries on independently using something like Barbara Boyd's Aeneid text (http://www.bolchazy.com/prod.php?cat=new&id=584X) is yet to be determined.

Hope this helps,
Jane

[Nan in Mass]

Thank you, Jane.

[Joan in Geneva]

Thanks for the list Nan! There were some new ones for us on there.

My son has enjoyed "parts" of Les Miserables...They break it down into less frightening sized books (If you know the size of Les Miserables unabridged you will know why). Off the top of my head I remember Jean Valjean.

I'm usually looking for good reading books in French for teens. They seem to have a lot of novels for the jr high level. Then the heavy ones, but not lighter but interesting reading for teens - or I just haven't found people who can give recommendations. Most of the ones they have seem to be translations from other languages, like Treasure Island, etc. I'm sure they're out there, I just don't have time to wade through the library.

So any suggestions are welcome.

Jane, your Latin is way past mine...We're doing research for a paper he is writing on the Huguenots. I say we because with all it's progressionism, Geneva's regular city library has no single book on the Huguenots, even though they made a huge financial contribution to this city, bringing all their skills and talents!

Anyway, I've had to help him go to the University library and Wed to the City archives to find information about them. Why did I start this? Oh yes, some of the books we found were in Latin! I can see that for any serious research here, Latin is indispensable. Then German....But he has so much on his plate that the Latin Greek roots were all we managed.

Best,
Joan

[ajjkt]

Just a caveat...

I studied in Australia except year 10 when I did an exchange to France. My French class were studying Le Marriage du Figaro. The language equivalent in English would be Shakespeare. It put me off any further attempts. However, reading other texts of an easier level was rewarding.

Just be careful as a non-native reader - great books often use great language

[CleoQc]

I had to look up every other word. But that is also when I discovered that one only has to do this for about the first bit of a book, and after that, you are likely to know most of the words in the book and the look-up rate slows way down.

Hee hee hee. Funny how it was an English book that did that for me ;-)
In my case, it was Lord of the Rings. Chaucer was actually an easy read :lol:
Dickens was very hard at first too.

[CleoQc]

Btw, although my kids are still young, we're aiming for a double litterature education here too. French as a first language, and then English. Just like I received. Well, I got skimped on the French one, I'd say. Kinda ironic.

If anyone needs 'transitional' readers, aimed at lower high school, look for Daniel Pennac.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Pennac

My son read his children's books, and enjoyed them. He's moved on to the adult books (well, one at least). Great style, high vocabulary, but fun stories for the kids.

[CleoQc]

About French at the high school level in France, some of the publishers make one book that covers all the grammar, orthographe, etc (eg Grammaire 4e) and a separate one that covers literature and writing called (Francais 4e)...our French tutor prefers the series by BELIN. I like it myself but find some others interesting as well.

Joan

Btw, we use Belin from grade 1 to 5. Then we move on to Bordas, but not necessarily by choice. From grade 6, the kids take long distance classes for French, and that's what they use. I do like it though.

Bordas Français 6ieme (http://www.amazon.fr/Fran%C3%A7ais-6e-unique-Fran%C3%A7oise-Colmez/dp/204732050X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233000258&sr=1-1)

[Joan in Geneva]

Hi CleoQc, Are you using the Bordas with CNED? Is CNED what most French Canadian homeschoolers use? Are you happy with it? At the end will you do the French Bac or something Canadian? (I don't know anything about homeschooling in Canada).

Do you have those pink, green, and red sets of novels in Canada? (They're late primary school level approximately)...I look at them and I forget which color it is that has lots of translated works. But apart from the Comptesse de Segur, I have no idea which are better than any other and don't want to waste my children's time giving them junk. Are you familiar with them.

Otherwise,
For easy reading I forgot about all Jules Verne's novels....

Best,
Joan

[CleoQc]

Yes, Joan. My son is using Bordas with CNED. The CNED has extra books, that take the place of a teacher, so Bordas is used as it would be in a classroom. We don't use CNED for the full program. I don't really want my kids to learn about French civics program, so we skip that. Right now, my son does French, Math and Spanish for 6th grade.

In the end, I don't think he'll go for the French Bacc. It will be his choice though. He can get into a local English university on the basis of a homeschooling portfolio. He cannot get into any French university though unless he has the French bacc or the Quebec Cegep diploma. And to get the Cegep diploma, he needs the high school diploma first. That's not where we're headed.

Since I know he's a science/math guy, and will most likely be going to an English university, those subjects are done in English. Math is bilingual - the CNED program and Lial's algebra for him this year.

As for the bibliothèque rose/ verte and red (there was no red when I was a child!), we do have them. I loved those books, especially the green series. They gave me a love of reading, for sure! Most of them are translations though. French lit, for all its nice reputation, is really poor when it comes to kids lit. Kids read comics books, like Asterix, and Tintin, and a plethora of others. They look like junk, but they're pretty good. They have a decent vocabulary level too. Quite surprising at times.

[Nan in Mass]

I must have read Cretien de Troyes (or however you spell it) in French lit because I have the book on the shelf. I guess that is the missing one.

For people who want easy reading, you can try TinTin books or Astrix, then Le Petit Prince, then Le Petit Nicholas. This makes a nice progression. It is also nice to read something you know well in English in French. It is definately easier to read English translated into French than it is to read original French. And I think it is good practice. You can make a good guess about what the English would be (especially if it is something you know well) because the language pattern is the same as your own (English rather than the French pattern) even though it is actually in French, and this helps you to see how to translate your own thoughts (also English language pattern) into French. I don't think I explained that very well, but maybe you can figure it out. So, if you read Harry Potter in French and a few Agatha Christie's (easy to find in translation), it can be a good stepping stone to original stuff in French.

HTH
-Nan

[Joan in Geneva]

Hi Joan,
Is there a film version of Tartuffe? We read the translation suggested by SWB in TWEM, a version by Richard Wilbur who employs rhyming couplets.

How does French of the 17th century compare to modern? Is this a problem for the student reader?

Jane (who knows Molliere in the original is beyond her--but dreams...)

Hi Jane,

I have to confess that I forgot about this question until today. Sorry about that. I have just looked at the DVD. The French is modern day thankfully. I have the "editions montparnasse". We haven't yet watched it thoughtfully so I cannot tell you how good it is. That should come in a few weeks.

Best,
Joan

[Joan in Geneva]

In the end, I don't think he'll go for the French Bacc. It will be his choice though. He can get into a local English university on the basis of a homeschooling portfolio. He cannot get into any French university though unless he has the French bacc or the Quebec Cegep diploma. And to get the Cegep diploma, he needs the high school diploma first. That's not where we're headed.

As for the bibliothèque rose/ verte and red (there was no red when I was a child!), we do have them. I loved those books, especially the green series. They gave me a love of reading, for sure! Most of them are translations though. French lit, for all its nice reputation, is really poor when it comes to kids lit.

Hi CleoQc,

Thanks for the Canadian info...I think the red books (well they have yellow on them too and are a little taller) are a pretty old series. Sometimes they have somewhat historical type settings. You'd probably know them if you saw them.

How does the Canadian level of high school education compare to the US? (OK I realize that is a difficult question because the US has so many states - so just generally).

Best,
Joan