I want to burn our Horizons math.What else is there?

[wendilouwho]

I'm having the hardest time deciding where to go for math next school year. My dd is currently doing Horizons 3. Initially I picked this program because a) it spiraled like her ps math and b) I heard it was about 1/2 a year ahead, which lined up nicely with pulling her out of ps midway. I almost hate Horizons, not quite hate, but really dislike. The TM is useless except for the extra worksheets and answers. I feel like it doesn't give actual instructions on how to work out problems or how to actually teach the program. And the spiraling! Makes my head spin! It isn't moving too fast for her. It just doesn't give her enough time to really get a concept, yet it reviews and reviews, and reviews some more. I am very close to burning the program in our furnace. But, it is kinda getting the job done.


My son is using Singapore, which I love, but I just don't know that it would be a good fit for dd, especially since she would be starting in 4th grade. My friend gave me an old copy of Saxon 5/4. I like how it actually shows worked examples, but I am a little leary of all the review. Other than that, I really have no idea where to go.

So, here's what I want. I want a good mix of review and really explaining a concept. I want to dwell on a concept for more that 7 minutes before switching to something else. I want worked out examples! With explanations! Dh (has a degree in Nuclear Engineering) and I are fairly competent in math but need help teaching it to our kid. A user-friendly TM would be nice. And if this magical, probably non-existant math program was able to be completed semi-independantly, I'd kiss it and bake it cookies.

Thanks guys!

[LadyAberlin]

I'd take a look at CLE. I've heard it described as a gentler Horizons. It is more independent and it is supposed to explain things well.

[bookmomma]

I would go for Saxon. It does have a lot of review, but you can chose to skip it if you need to.

It covers a concept and keeps reinforcing the concept with worksheets for independent practice.

The teacher's manual is scripted, so you can literally just read it and they learn. This is especially helpful for those days when you just can't think. And it shows answers to problems.

I really like how they use the concepts over and over again, so you don't cover it once and move on--forever. My son loves measuring things and taking the temperature. He has a firm grasp on these things now.

[Stacia]

Have you looked at MUS? With the dvd, you dd could watch the lesson (w/ or w/out you) & then work in the book. Steve Demme gives great, straightforward lessons, imo. MUS is working wonderfully for us.

I don't know anything about Horizons, though, so I can't really compare the two programs.

[Mom2boys]

Have you looked at Teaching Textbooks? I believe it would meet all your requirements. :001_smile:

[TracyR]

My picks would be either CLE math or MUS. If you really like Singapore math maybe try a math program like BJU math.

[wendilouwho]

Have you looked at Teaching Textbooks? I believe it would meet all your requirements. :001_smile:

I have heard of TT. I haven't really looked into it because I thought it started in 5th grade, though I did hear a rumor they were coming out with a 4th grade book. Of course. I've also heard many people place their dc a year ahead in TT. Ugh! So many decisions. Is math really necessary?;)

[wendilouwho]

My picks would be either CLE math or MUS. If you really like Singapore math maybe try a math program like BJU math.

I would have never thought of BJU. Its just not one you hear of people using. Is it spiral or mastery? I do like Singapore, and we will probably stick with that for ds, but with all the different strategies taught at the early level I feel dd may get frustrated jumping in. I guess I'll have to look inot BJU.

BTW, CLE does look good, especially for the price!

[Lovedtodeath]

My current plan is to switch to TT after we are done with all math facts. They do have a TT 4 now.

If I were you I would probably would go with either BJU or Abeka (I switched to MUS from Horizons). It is usually not a good idea to start MUS in the middle after a child is used to a more traditional program. From what everyone was saying back when I switched from Horizons, BJU fits your description. The semi-independent comment probably got you the TT rec.

I was told that BJU is mastery but does include built in review. From my understanding Horizons is not really spiral but incremental and that is what is really, really hard to teach (for me).

[katemary63]

My older daughter used Saxon 6/5 thru Algebra 1/2 and simply did every other problem, or every third problem. If she aced them, she moved on. If she didn't, she had to do the rest. She had no problem with being over - reviewed and she has done excellently through high school math. She did Abeka Algebra 1 ( hated it) Lials Intermediate Algebra ( loved it) and Jacob's Geometry (loved it) totally on her own. I always said I would get her a tutor when she started needing one and she never did. She is in community college now taking College Algebra. I think much of her math success is due to Saxon. I plan to start 5/4 with my youngest this summer for 4th grade and follow the same plan.

ps. Oldest daughter is a history/ literature type - NOT a math whiz

[LadyAberlin]

BJU is very good. It can be teacher intensive though and that is why I didn't suggest it. I've known people to use it all the way through and their kids did really well on the SAT. You can't go wrong with it. It is strong in conceptual development too. It won't really be independent. You will have to teach the lesson. I believe OhElizabeth is using it with her daughter if you want to find out more about it. I've debated using it myself, but we are using a combo of MUS and Horizons and we are really enjoying it so I don't want to rock the boat and switch when it is working. I've taught homeschool highschool math over the yrs and I've used both Saxon and BJU and I prefer BJU over Saxon so long as the teacher is strong in math. Saxon is easier if the teacher is weak in math.

[wendilouwho]

BJU is very good. It can be teacher intensive though and that is why I didn't suggest it. I've known people to use it all the way through and their kids did really well on the SAT. You can't go wrong with it. It is strong in conceptual development too. It won't really be independent. You will have to teach the lesson. I believe OhElizabeth is using it with her daughter if you want to find out more about it. I've debated using it myself, but we are using a combo of MUS and Horizons and we are really enjoying it so I don't want to rock the boat and switch when it is working. I've taught homeschool highschool math over the yrs and I've used both Saxon and BJU and I prefer BJU over Saxon so long as the teacher is strong in math. Saxon is easier if the teacher is weak in math.

Ah ha! I knew BJU sounded too good to be true. I've always been good at math. I took higher level math in high school and beyond (Calc., Statistics). My problem is I just do what they tell me to do in math. I have no idea what I'm doing, but it works. I think math is just voodoo magic. So, teacher-intensive BJU may not be good, especially since we have to younger ones competing for Mom's attention. Then again, I really want dd to "get" math. Would that happen with Saxon? She is bright and "gets" concepts quickly, but often just wants to be told what to do. But, does it really matter if she isn't going to be a Mathmetician when she gets older? Thanks for the help!

[Lovedtodeath]

Saxon is spiral/incremental just like Horizons from what I understand.

Any opinions on Teaching Textbooks math? (http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66205) This thread might help. I found a lot when I put in a Tag search for Teaching Textbooks.

[MerryAtHope]

I know what you mean about Horizons--for us, I found that me working out a couple of the problems as examples helped my kids--sometimes I even just fill them out ahead of time, while other times we do things together on a white board until they understand, or I get out base 10 blocks.

As for all the review, I just cross off what I think is extraneous. I usually have my kids do only about half of the review problems & all of a new or recently new concept. Unless they make tons of mistakes, that's plenty--and if they do make mistakes, we've got more problems to do.

I only use the TG for answers in levels 4 & up.

Maybe that won't work for you but I wanted to offer it in case! Or at least maybe it will help until you find something that will work better for you.

Merry :-)

[iamrachelle]

I'll throw another vote in for CLE. We just finished book one of Horizons 3 but I felt like my DD struggled the entire semester... like you said, the TM was zero help and I was left to try and figure out how to teach each concept. We just made the switch to CLE (I started her in light unit 306) and she has already remarked about how much she likes it better. It's the same spiraling approach with examples done on the student pages for each new concept. So far we both really like it but I'm sure like most things it will take us a few weeks to get the feel of it. HTH

[Chris in VA]

I love Saxon, but FYI, there's no teacher manual after Saxon 3. (5/4 and above are very different from 3 and below.) The explanations are in the student text--it's fairly clear, but it will spiral, which you say you hate.
OTOH, you say you want to stay on a concept for a while--you do, with spiraling, it's just that the concept comes up in the review! :D

[ReAmy]

we just switched out daughter from saxon 7/6 to teaching textbooks 7. she absolutely loves it....we printed an online placement form to help us decide where to put her and we intend on switching over our son as soon as he finishes up saxon 3. (disclaimer--i am a 1st year hs mom and really have no idea what i'm doing :001_smile:)

[LadyAberlin]

Saxon was really popular when I was being homeschooled in the 80's and 90's. It was the math program to use. My mom used all different math programs with me. We were curriculum hoppers LOL In highschool we used BJU for Algebra 1 and it was a struggle because my mom was trying to remember how to do it. Then I asked to switch to Saxon for Algebra 2. It made a big difference. I was able to do it on my own. Towards the end of the book I did get a tutor. I was able to CLEP out of College Algebra. That said, I think that it was very formulaic and I knew how to work the math problems, but I didn't know why I worked them that way. I've heard things since then about Saxon not really teaching you to understand the why's just how to do the problem. That is why I started recommending people look at CLE. From what I hear it works on concept development more than others and is kind of a horizons and saxon mix. I known people that hated horizons who loved CLE. My next son coming up I think will have a different learning style than my oldest and so I'm thinking of using CLE with him. Singapore is a nice mastery program and the Standards edition has more review, but I'm not sure how it would work moving into it at the age your daughter is. CLE has the independence factor that you were wanting.

[Chloe]

I am so surprised no one has suggested Rod & Staff math. It sounds like exactly what you are looking for.

[whitestavern]

Can I hijack?? I have switched around a bit for math. My DD is good at math; has no problems with it, just intensely dislikes it. We started out with Saxon, tried Singapore, then Horizons, and are back at Saxon. After trying the others we are liking Saxon more. However, always in search of the "holy grail" of math, I read this thread and quickly checked out TT and CLE. I have a couple of questions: With TT, do you need to use the DVDs? We use secular materials so I'm interested in hearing how "religious" CLE math is. Also, I couldn't find samples on their site...where can I view samples? Thanks!

[PollyOR]

I am so surprised no one has suggested Rod & Staff math. It sounds like exactly what you are looking for.

:iagree:

You can view sample pages here: Rod and Staff (http://www.rodandstaff.info/samples/4/math/)

The chapters focus on one topic.

My daughter and I read the page (usually a 1/2 page) in the student text which has great step by step examples. She does the math problems mentally if she can and then I let her work the remainder on a chalkboard. There are word/story problems and a review section in every lesson.

[Cornerstone Classical]

I would look at Saxon, I couldn't use Horizons for the reasons you posted. To be honest, I love Saxon because it is scripted. I just found out this week that it isn't scripted above 5/4. I've been looking at BJU, and it looks really good, and the TM is great (scripted). But it does look like you have to "teach" it just like you do for Saxon K-3. If you aren't looking for your child to do math very independantly, look at BJU. The look of it reminds me of Horizons. It's very colorful, and my dc love BJU, because of the design/layout of it.

[Gretchen in NJ]

Saxon is spiral/incremental just like Horizons from what I understand.

Any opinions on Teaching Textbooks math? (http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66205) This thread might help. I found a lot when I put in a Tag search for Teaching Textbooks.
:iagree:This is what I have been told too. I have never looked at Horizons, but have considered Saxon. This year we went with R&S Math and I have been very happy with it so far. Dd11 thinks it is going too slow and it is about right for dd9.

[Gretchen in NJ]

:iagree:This is what I have been told too. I have never looked at Horizons, but have considered Saxon. This year we went with R&S Math and I have been very happy with it so far. Dd11 thinks it is going too slow and it is about right for dd9.

Also the TM for R&S is fantastic IMHO. It is not scripted, but they give you all that you need for each lesson.

[wendilouwho]

Wow! Thanks guys for all the help. I had not thought of Rod and Staff either. Maybe I'll check into that. Right now, CLE looks good, although I wanted to go out and buy the Saxon 54 kit last night. I was looking through the old edition I have on hand and realized she is doing most of the lessons right now in Horizons. I am a little scared of BJU math. I was under the assumption the TM for Horizons would help me teach the program, but was sadly dissapointed. It sounds like BJU may be the same. TT looks great, but honestly, I'm cheap and don't know if I want to spend that amount of money on 4th grade math. I'd like to think I can figure out 4th grade math and help dd, but I'm learning that I'm not as smart as I thought I was. (We've only been homeschooling for 2 months and man has it shown me the gaps in my education!) Anyway, thanks again everyone! Feel free to add more if you think of anything else.

[Gretchen in NJ]

I'm cheap and don't know if I want to spend that amount of money on 4th grade math.

I think R&S is around $45 for the year. Sometime in the spring they have free shipping and 10% off if I remember correctly.

[Lovedtodeath]

BJU has great Teacher Manuals. It is not like Horizons at all in that respect.

It sounds like you can make Saxon 54 work. It is designed to be more independent. CLE is more independent too, but I know nothing else about it.

You've got me second guessing my TT plan.

[LadyAberlin]

BJU's Tm are much better than Horizons. The tell you what to teach.

[Melissa in CA]

I use BJU math and love it. If you go to the BJUP.com website you can find online samples of the books....Teacher Edition too I believe. The TE is scripted on what to say, what to teach, how to teach it, etc. It is meant to be taught though. If you know that you cannot give the 15-30 min or so a day to teach each lesson to your dd, then I would go with another program.

If your dd does not like Horizons, I would surely steer clear of Saxon. My older boys hated Saxon's incremental lessons. :tongue_smilie:

[sixpence1978]

I would definitely encourage you too look at the samples of BJU math at bjupress.com or cbd.com

We are using BJU math. Yes, it CAN be teacher intensive, but it doesn't have to be. Of course, I am not too in favor of independent math programs also. Math is our most important subject at our house and I don't mind taking the little extra time it takes to teach it. We cut back in the other areas that CAN be more independent.

I am currently teaching BJU K5 math and 2nd grade math. Usually around an hour is what it takes for me to teach both of them. That includes working with my K'er on her entire worksheet since she can't yet read the instructions herself. The TM has enough information that anybody could teach from it. I think that the PP who said it helps if the parent understands math, just means that you probably wouldn't have to follow the TM step by step as much.

Anyway, I encourage you to look at the samples and see if you like. I haven't found anything I like more yet.

[inashoe]

I have heard of TT. I haven't really looked into it because I thought it started in 5th grade, though I did hear a rumor they were coming out with a 4th grade book. Of course. I've also heard many people place their dc a year ahead in TT. Ugh! So many decisions. Is math really necessary?;)

Yes - you can place your child one grade ahead in TT. My son moved from midway through Singapore 4 into TT Math 5 - and thrived. The explanations are excellent. I didn't like Singapore because the explanations are lacking.

[Cadam]

So, here's what I want. I want a good mix of review and really explaining a concept. I want to dwell on a concept for more that 7 minutes before switching to something else. I want worked out examples! With explanations! Dh (has a degree in Nuclear Engineering) and I are fairly competent in math but need help teaching it to our kid. A user-friendly TM would be nice. And if this magical, probably non-existant math program was able to be completed semi-independantly, I'd kiss it and bake it cookies.

Thanks guys!

Just test her into Singapore and use the Horizons for kindling. If you hate the spiral of Horizons you will run screaming from the "super- spiral" of Saxon. You know Singapore, you like Singapore. You are switching anyway, so why not switch to something you will already like? You will have the added benefit of being able to re-use the books with your younger kids.

[candleinaustin]

I don't know why, but for some reason I didn't want to try Saxon in the beginning with my DD9. I am hesitant to jump on the bandwagon, just because. But, now that I've tried Horizons, Rod and Staff I'm certain that Saxon is the best fit. Hope this helps. We would have loved to get Teaching Textbooks 4 for this year, but it still hasn't been released. We'll do TT 5 along with Saxon 5/6 next year. Both methods go along at an almost identical pace. When we hit a wall or get bored with Saxon, we'll switch off to TT. HTH - Michelle

[wendilouwho]

Just test her into Singapore and use the Horizons for kindling. If you hate the spiral of Horizons you will run screaming from the "super- spiral" of Saxon. You know Singapore, you like Singapore. You are switching anyway, so why not switch to something you will already like? You will have the added benefit of being able to re-use the books with your younger kids.

Because that would be too easy!:tongue_smilie: Apparently I prefer to go the hard way. Part of me is saying "Just put her in Singapore," but I don't want this success-driven child to feel bad if she tests into anything lower than 4A. OTOH, we plan on using MFW next year, and they sell lesson plans with Singapore, so that would mean even less planning! Ugh! Looks like math this week may involve taking numerous placement tests.

[SnowWhite]

I am a Singapore lover, but I use BJU Math because I am a traditionalist and I like having a great teacher's manual. To me, BJU Math is like Singapore plus review with a great teacher's manual. Teaching the BJU lessons has helped *me* understand math better. (and I was a pretty good math student, I just think "back in the day" we didn't really study concepts the way BJU and Singapore do).

[jadedone80]

Your dd is actually still pretty young to be so stressed about math.
Their brains are wired for concrete and abstract doesn't kick in until middle school.

Because of forced early math exposure, many people develop mathphobia, math hatred, math avoidance, and other negative math syndromes.

Maybe ease up if she isn't ready and try again later? Boys brains are wired a bit different and tend to handle the conceptual math earlier and easier...although not always.

[wendilouwho]

Your dd is actually still pretty young to be so stressed about math.
Their brains are wired for concrete and abstract doesn't kick in until middle school.

Because of forced early math exposure, many people develop mathphobia, math hatred, math avoidance, and other negative math syndromes.

Maybe ease up if she isn't ready and try again later? Boys brains are wired a bit different and tend to handle the conceptual math earlier and easier...although not always.

It's not that she's struggling with math. She's actually doing pretty well. I want to avoid the math phobia and frustrations. I can see that starting to creep in with Horizons. I don't want her to burn out on math so early, which is why I know I need to switch. Do you have any suggestions for a math program? I'd love to hear them!

[Shari]

BJU, BJU, BJU

Do a board search for BJU Math, if you are interested. There are lots of posts about it.

[JFS in IL]

If you can make it through this year with Horizons..then you can move AHEAD a year into TT, as it tends to run "behind" other programs. I used TT6 with a 5th grader with no problem. TT4 may be too easy for a kid who completes Horizons 3.

[Cadam]

Because that would be too easy!:tongue_smilie: Apparently I prefer to go the hard way. Part of me is saying "Just put her in Singapore," but I don't want this success-driven child to feel bad if she tests into anything lower than 4A. OTOH, we plan on using MFW next year, and they sell lesson plans with Singapore, so that would mean even less planning! Ugh! Looks like math this week may involve taking numerous placement tests.

Why don't you see where she tests before worrying about it?

Black out the book number on the test and just see how she does. She may surprise you. It is also quiet simple to explain that kids in Singapore don't start 1a until after they are 7 yo so this is really a year ahead. Testing into Singapore 3 is like testing into an american level 4 book. I am not sure if it quite works out that way..... but it should do the trick and it is true that kids in Singapore don't start school until age 7.

[3byzaz]

CLE, CLE, CLE...the best I have ever seen and we've used a lot too. It has everything you are looking for. Inexpensive, workbook format with enough room to write, review--but not too much, EXCELLENT instructions written to the child, drill included if necessary. My son LOVES it...he is able to do it almost totally independently, but I can help if I need to without spending a lot of time trying to figure it out. He's in the 400 level now. We started at 306 this past summer.

I used Horizons up to 3rd with my oldest when math became a huge battle and lots of crying. Horizon's is ok until 3rd--once I ordered 4th and saw how totally unhelpful the TM was going to be, I know I had to switch. It was awful...I wish I had known about CLE then...sigh! Anyway, we went to MCP--ok, but then not enough review and he forgot things. Then, we went to SOS and MUS and that's been a good fit cuz he loves the computer and it took me out of the battle for a little bit. And, the MUS helped with concepts. Next year for 7th I think I am going to do TT, but wouldn't want to spend that kind of money for it until 7th--I am cheap too!!! :>)

CLE is all that my youngest son will use! I looked at BJU also, but decided on CLE! Good luck!