Can we talk Greek?

[Heather in NC]

We are finishing up LCII and plan to do Henle I next year for Latin. I am also thinking of adding in Greek at some point so I am looking for reviews of programs.

I've looked at Alphabeterion (with copybook), Elementary Greek, Hey Andrew and Greek for Children (which isn't out yet).

Anyone have more that I am not aware of? Any reviews, pros/cons of these programs?

[Beth in Central TX]

We started with the Greek Alphabetarion which was a gentle and slow approach to learning how to say the Greek alphabet and how to write the Greek alphabet (upper and lower case). If you are starting with an older student, then it's really not a necessary program. We started in 2nd & 3rd grade, so I thought GA was invaluable as an introduction to the language.

We've used Elementary Greek I, II, & III. It's a wonderful program. Each lesson introduces Greek vocabulary and a grammar concept. Reviews are built into the program. The lesson is broken into 5 days. Currently in level III, Days 1, 2, & 3 introduce the vocabulary and explain the grammar, Day 4 is spent translating sentences, and Day 5 is review.

Our boys know Greek. They can read, write, and recite New Testament verses in Greek. What more can I say about EG?

[Mama Lynx]

Beth,

Have you finishedEG III? What are you moving on to/have you moved on to?

[Beth in Central TX]

No, we're not quite done. I think we're at lesson 22 out of 30.

What to use next? That's the big question. We have Homeschool Greek I by Bluedorn, and that's what DH has used to keep ahead of the boys. Right now we're planning on using HS Greek next year with our 6th and 7th graders. HS Greek will be a review of EG vocabulary, but it does go deeper into Greek grammar. Mounce's Greek looks a little too advanced, but it will probably be the next step after HS Greek, unless you have a better option?? I'm hoping (but not too hopeful) that HS Greek Vol II will be out soon.

We feel like we're moving in the dark here now that we are close to finishing EG.

[abbeyej]

Beth,

Have you considered Machen next? It has fewer helps than Mounce, but I find it more approachable and it fits very closely with EG...

[Karenciavo]

I agree with Beth, no need for Alphabeterion. We used it because EG wasn't out and I didn't care for Hey Andrew.

For Stephanie: We will finish EGIII in a few weeks then my boys would like a break. I have Mounce and we were going that way, but since EG seems to be influenced by Machen I think it makes more sense for us to go with that. Really, what I'd like to do is move on to classical using a text by John White called "First Greek." I just found an answer key for it on the net and my guys might like it because a lot of the translating deals with soldiers and such. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/rolleyes010.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

[Heather in NC]

OK, so Alphabeterion is optional and Elementary Greek would come before Homeschool Greek?

Can you tell me what you did not like about Hey Andrew? Any thoughts on the Greek for Children series that is coming out soon?

Can you tell me anythingmore about Machen or Mounce? Even though we are just starting, I like to have the sequence planned out so if one particular text leads into another really well I'd like to know about it.

If I wanted to start slow (since we are pretty heavy into Latin) how would this look:

5th grade- GA
6th grade- EGI
7th grade- EGII
8th grade- EGIII
9th grade- HGI
10th grade- HGII
11th grade- Mounce or Machen
12th grade- Mounce or Machen

Is that the proper sequence? Are there workbooks that go with Mounce and/or Machen?

[Karenciavo]

I would do:

5th grade- GA
6th grade- EGI
7th grade- EGII
8th grade- EGIII
9th grade- Machen (or Mounce or HSGI)
10th grade- Machen - if needed (or Mounce or HSGII)

Machen has 33 exercises in the text so it will probably take a high schooler who has completed EG 1.5 years or so, you will most likely quickly accomplish the first third of the book at least, but you may need more than a week on the later chapters. The "Study Guide for J. Gresham Machen's New Testament Greek for Beginners" by Thompson is a workbook people seem to enjoy (I haven't seen it), but there are exercises in the text that get completed on paper. For 11th and 12th I would either move on to Classical Greek or use readers like Mounce's "A Graded Reader of Biblical Greek." I've heard our founding fathers used to practice translating from English to Latin to Greek and back and Tracy Simmons wrote that James Garfield on hearing a sentence in English, could translate it onto paper, one hand into Greek, the other into Latin. Sounds like fun practice. :eek:

Hey Andrew was too cutesy for me.

[Mama Lynx]

No, we're not quite done. I think we're at lesson 22 out of 30.

What to use next? That's the big question. We have Homeschool Greek I by Bluedorn, and that's what DH has used to keep ahead of the boys. Right now we're planning on using HS Greek next year with our 6th and 7th graders. HS Greek will be a review of EG vocabulary, but it does go deeper into Greek grammar. Mounce's Greek looks a little too advanced, but it will probably be the next step after HS Greek, unless you have a better option?? I'm hoping (but not too hopeful) that HS Greek Vol II will be out soon.

We feel like we're moving in the dark here now that we are close to finishing EG.

We haven't even started Greek, yet!

And I really want us to learn Attic or Homeric, more than Koine. However, I'm about to give up and go with EG. I don't know that Mom can manage the workload of trying to learn Attic or Homeric, *and* make it teachable to the kids, on her own. Oh, boy. Better go with the good Koine resource in front of me, than the homemade Homeric source that only exists in my head.

At this point, I don't know how far my kids will go in Greek. We've established that they're doing Latin for the duration ;-) But I don't know if I'm going to push Greek in the same way. Plus, I want them to have a modern language ... aaahhhh!! :eek:

[Luanne]

Now I won't have to ask this question myself in a few weeks from now. LOL

[Laura Corin]

They are planning their own Greek text, but that's way in the future. For now, they distribute a little book called Greek A New Guide for Beginners. It's a gentle introduction to classical (not Koine) Greek that you could use up in a year. The only place to get it, as far as I know, if directly from Galore Park (http://www.galorepark.co.uk/product/parents/168/greek-a-new-guide-for-beginners.html).

Laura

[Beth in Central TX]

Karenciavo & Abbeyej--Thanks for the Machen recommendation. DH actually has the Machen text. Did I tell you I don't teach the Greek around here? He appreciates the workbook suggestion, and I have it on our Amazon wishlist now.

I like the schedule you have put together. DH is thinking of going with Machen and spreading it out over 2-3 years since our boys are starting so young.

Have you seen the book Greek Grammar by Smyth? If so, is it more of a reference book or something that we could use after Machen?

[Beth in Central TX]

I know how you feel--too many options and too little time!

EG obviously uses Bible verses to memorize and for pronunciation; however, there's no doctrine involved. The lessons are vocabulary and grammar oriented, but the intent is to give you a background in biblical Greek.

[Beth in Central TX]

I would like to plug the Greek Alphabetarion a little though. Even though it's not necessary to start EGI, it does build a firm foundation in Greek alphabet and phonics. Of course, an older student could go through the program in a few months rather than a full school year. EGI goes through the alphabet and sounds very quickly. DH thinks that GA provides a better schedule to learn Greek phonics. Our boys are very adept at saying Greek words because of their exposure to GA. This has helped in EG when they encounter new words and when they read Greek out loud. It really helps to be able to say the words out loud (or in your head) when you are translating.

[Beth in Central TX]

Karenciavo...One last thing, speaking of "cutesy", your new avitar is simply adorable!

[Karenciavo]

Karenciavo...One last thing, speaking of "cutesy", your new avitar is simply adorable!

Thanks. It's my youngest after his first haircut which was at the barber shop in the Magic Kingdom at Walt Disney World. :)

[Volty]

I'm wondering if any of you that are teaching Greek (or Latin) but don't have any background in it yourselves. If so, is it difficult? I'm comfortable with everything else, but I'm intimidated to teach things I have no background in.

[Plaid Dad]

Have you seen the book Greek Grammar by Smyth? If so, is it more of a reference book or something that we could use after Machen?

It's a reference book, mostly for Attic Greek. :)

[beansprouts]

And I really want us to learn Attic or Homeric, more than Koine.

Could you explain the difference please?

I would like to give my kids Greek also at some point. :cool:

[Karenciavo]

I'm wondering if any of you that are teaching Greek (or Latin) but don't have any background in it yourselves. If so, is it difficult? I'm comfortable with everything else, but I'm intimidated to teach things I have no background in.

I learn along side my children, probably more like a step or two ahead of them. I am fortunate in that I have a number of people I can turn to if I need help with Greek or Latin.

[Heather in NC]

Could you explain the difference please?

I would like to give my kids Greek also at some point. :cool:

I would like to know, too. And when you say "classical" or the "Climbing Parnassus"-style education, are you refering to koine or attic?

[Beth in Central TX]

Same here. I'm a few steps ahead of what I teach my boys. However, I could not do this for both Latin and Greek. I've also had to remediate myself in English Grammar, history, literature, etc., so there just isn't enough time in the day to get done what I need to get done. I was fine with just dropping Greek (I really had a hard time identifying the alphabet) and just moving forward with Latin. However, DH wanted our boys to learn both, so he stepped up and took over the Greek instruction. It has really worked out well for us, and I've even learned some Greek along the way.

[Mama Lynx]

I'm wondering if any of you that are teaching Greek (or Latin) but don't have any background in it yourselves. If so, is it difficult? I'm comfortable with everything else, but I'm intimidated to teach things I have no background in.

When I started at the beginning, with Prima Latina, I bought a copy of Henle for my self and worked through the first several units.

Soon I will need to pick it back up and go further, to stay ahead of them!

[Mama Lynx]

I would like to know, too. And when you say "classical" or the "Climbing Parnassus"-style education, are you refering to koine or attic?

Koine is the form of Greek used in the Bible. It is somewhat simpler to learn.

Just like English has gone through variations (Old English, Middle English, etc.), so has Greek. Attic and Homeric are two of those variations, and they are somewhat more difficult than Koine.

None of them are "more classical" than the other, I wouldn't think. However, my goal is to read Homer, so Homeric fits that goal.

We are not Christian, and the Koine programs are geared toward reading the Bible. I don't have a problem with that, but it's not my goal, either.

I had completely forgotten that Galore Park was working on a Greek program. I wish they had it out *now*. Now I'm back to EG now, or Spanish now, and wait on Galore Park?

I need something with short, laid-out lessons and workbooks, and lots of practice or I would try out the Greek book that Laura is using.

[abbeyej]

And when you say "classical" or the "Climbing Parnassus"-style education, are you refering to koine or attic?

Koine, Attic, Homeric, Doric, Aeolic, Iocnic, and on and on are all dialects of ancient Greek. The variations came about due to separations in time and geography. These days, most Greek classes in university begin with Attic -- after three semesters or so of Attic (the dialect associated with Athens), students are dumped into classes where they translate works in various dialects and are simply expected to keep up. Certainly if they're plopped in a Homeric class, a portion of the class will be spent on the differences between Homeric dialect and the Attic they began with, though most of the time will simply be spent on translation. At Christian universities and seminaries, students begin with Koine.

Koine is the simpler version of Greek that spread throughout the western world when Alexander conquered so much of it... It was the language of business, the common language of the Mediterranean world, and also the language in which the New Testament was written (and other works of history written at the time, etc).

Dh and I studied Attic at university (and after doing that, we were simply expected to be able to read Koine when asked), but we decided to go with Koine for the children (while they're children) for several reasons... First, of course, there were no appropriate Attic texts for children or pre-teens. There are several possibilities for very strong teenage students, but almost nothing for anyone any younger. As we thought about it, we also came to realize that there is ample, familiar source material available in the Greek Bible (as it was originally written in the New Testament, or the Septuagint which is the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible) for children to read. If we had a ten-year-old who had studied Attic for three years, we'd still be in the position of not having much for him/her to translate. With regard to Koine, the Bible provides a great deal of material with historical and literary merit (and that's ignoring the religious aspect of things!) that are already familiar (or should be) to contemporary children (regardless of their religious background). The familiarity makes translation a little simpler and less overwhelming, while still providing challenging practice.

Our goal is certainly that by middle school / junior high, the children will work through a beginning Attic text (which should be very quick and easy after several years of Koine) -- something like Athenaze or Reading Greek or even the new Galore Park program (which I look forward to with interest) -- and then spend their high school years reading and translating Attic and Homeric Greek. (And that, cough, will have to be done with the help of a tutor or mentor outside the home, because I'm just not going to be up to the task of directing and correcting them at that point -- though I hope that I will at least be able to keep up!)

Anyway, all that is why, when we had the chance, dh and I became involved in publishing Elementary Greek. The reasons were pretty selfish... ;) We wanted a strong, clear program to use with our own kiddos and had been unable to find anything that fit the bill. :)

[Mama Lynx]

Hmmm, Abbey, you make a good salesperson, you do.

[abbeyej]

Hmmm, Abbey, you make a good salesperson, you do.

Roflol, If you only knew!... When I was in school, I remember my dad giving me a $10 bill to give my class in lieu of selling wrapping paper or whatever it was. He knew it would give me hives to try. ;) (That said, I feel quite differently about EG than I did about school wrapping paper... And I daresay you've seen me wax on about Latin Prep as well...) :)

[Heather in NC]

Roflol, If you only knew!... When I was in school, I remember my dad giving me a $10 bill to give my class in lieu of selling wrapping paper or whatever it was. He knew it would give me hives to try. ;) (That said, I feel quite differently about EG than I did about school wrapping paper... And I daresay you've seen me wax on about Latin Prep as well...) :)

So, you are involved with the EG materials? In what way (if you don't mind me asking)? Can you tell me all the wonderful things about them? I am with karenciavo when she says she doesn't like things that are too cutesy. I am the same way. I want academic, systematic instruction that is age-appropriate.

I also dream of a program that would do the English to Latin to Greek and back translation-type exercises after we have a strong grasp of both languages. I know it's weird but that sounds like fun to me (I am a language major in Spanish). :D

[abbeyej]

So, you are involved with the EG materials? In what way (if you don't mind me asking)? Can you tell me all the wonderful things about them? I am with karenciavo when she says she doesn't like things that are too cutesy. I am the same way. I want academic, systematic instruction that is age-appropriate.

I also dream of a program that would do the English to Latin to Greek and back translation-type exercises after we have a strong grasp of both languages. I know it's weird but that sounds like fun to me (I am a language major in Spanish). :D

Well, lol, despite my little plug above, I really do hate being a "salesman". I am, however, happy to answer any specific questions that I can! Here's a link to the website, where you can download some samples: http://opentexture.com/products/greek/yearone/default.aspx I do believe you'll find that it's "academic, systematic" and non-cutesy. :)

Also, we do not currently have any Greek-to-Latin-to-English-and-back type exercises, though I agree with you that that can be very useful for students. It's a fairly small percentage of our already small market that has students studying both languages at a level to be able to do that though! ;) One thing that you can do (and that I've done from time to time with ds), is find the verses that are memorized and analyzed in EG in the Vulgate ( http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=4&lang=6 ) and memorize them in Latin as well as Greek. As students advance a bit in their study of both languages, comparing the two can be very valuable.

Let me know if I can give more information...

[Mama Lynx]

I'm thinking maybe this would be a fun exercise to do with proverbs. In two or three years, I think enough of you should be ready to do this that we could have a little yahoo group working on it :)

[Laura Corin]

I'm wondering if any of you that are teaching Greek (or Latin) but don't have any background in it yourselves. If so, is it difficult? I'm comfortable with everything else, but I'm intimidated to teach things I have no background in.

I had four years of Latin at school (thirty years ago!) but have really had to start over, learning alongside Calvin. Hobbes badgered me into teaching him Greek and we are learning that together. You have to be prepared to confess ignorance and puzzle out the answer. Sometimes I've had to say to my sons that I would ask some experts on line and come back with an answer later.

Laura

[Karenciavo]

You have to be prepared to confess ignorance and puzzle out the answer. Sometimes I've had to say to my sons that I would ask some experts on line and come back with an answer later.

Laura

Same here. The people at Textkit (http://www.textkit.com/)have helped me out a few times.

[Heather in NC]

I'm thinking maybe this would be a fun exercise to do with proverbs. In two or three years, I think enough of you should be ready to do this that we could have a little yahoo group working on it :)

That sounds fun!!