Classical Writing Tutorials... Is anyone taking one of these?

[Heather in VA]

I'm considering signing my oldest up for the accelerated Maxim class in the spring but I'm wondering if they are worth the price. I was a little bothered by the idea that the class is $250 but you still have to pay extra for them to give feedback on your student's work. Part of why I wanted to take the class was to make sure we are teaching/using/understanding the course properly but I wonder if I'll really know that if we don't get feedback on the writing.

Anyone have experience with these classes (positive or negative)?

Heather

[Karenciavo]

I'm thinking about the same class for my 15 yo Heather, haven't decided yet.

I was a little bothered by the idea that the class is $250 but you still have to pay extra for them to give feedback on your student's work.

I guess I missed that, I see it now. I thought the price for 1 semester is $270 ($220 + $50.) The class is 1.25 hours and it does take a lot of time and effort to grade essays so I guess the price seems fair, but I would be interested in knowing how thoroughly they are graded. I think I'll email Kathy and ask about it.

[Heather in VA]

Karen,

The other option for me was to move to Lost Tools of Writing which I noticed you are using. Is there a reason you'd move to CW or are you using a combination of both?

DH just confirmed that he supports keeping my oldest home for high school - which thrills me - but now the panic is setting in and I feel like I need a firm plan forward for writing.

Thanks
Heather

[cajun.classical]

Karen,

The other option for me was to move to Lost Tools of Writing which I noticed you are using. Is there a reason you'd move to CW or are you using a combination of both?


:lurk5: I'm listening in because as much as I LOVE CW, I'm also infatuated with Lost Tools of Writing...

[Karenciavo]

I use The Lost Tools of Writing with my 13 yo. My 15 yo is such a good writer he pretty much just does the Writing Aids assignments from TOG on his own, unfortunately I grow weary of grading them :-/ I don't use The Lost Tools of Writing with ds15 because his schedule is so jammed pack he doesn't really have time to go at the pace ds13 needs (slow.) I love it though.

[Heather in VA]

So if you had to choose for a college bound child going into high school, which would you pick? So far she's done Aesop, Homer and we tried Maxim at one point but I got lost and frustrated (hence the interest in the course). She's also done some IEW because I needed something that we could just do. It was fine but I'm back to wanting more analytical writing, which I think I can get from CW or LTW. My 9 year old is currently in Homer if that makes any difference. I'm hoping whatever I learn to use with my oldest I'll be able to use with her as well.

Bear in mind I'm a math major who got a majority of her English credits by taking wonderful courses like 'Modern Mythology' where we got to study Tolkein, Lewis, L'Engle etc but only had to write one major paper LOL.

Heather

[ballzy]

I'm signing up ds12 for the Aesop and Homer for Older Beginners. It'll be his first time taking on online class/tutorial.


I'm considering signing my oldest up for the accelerated Maxim class in the spring but I'm wondering if they are worth the price. I was a little bothered by the idea that the class is $250 but you still have to pay extra for them to give feedback on your student's work. Part of why I wanted to take the class was to make sure we are teaching/using/understanding the course properly but I wonder if I'll really know that if we don't get feedback on the writing.

Anyone have experience with these classes (positive or negative)?

Heather

[Karenciavo]

So if you had to choose for a college bound child going into high school, which would you pick? So far she's done Aesop, Homer and we tried Maxim at one point but I got lost and frustrated (hence the interest in the course). She's also done some IEW because I needed something that we could just do. It was fine but I'm back to wanting more analytical writing, which I think I can get from CW or LTW. My 9 year old is currently in Homer if that makes any difference. I'm hoping whatever I learn to use with my oldest I'll be able to use with her as well.

Bear in mind I'm a math major who got a majority of her English credits by taking wonderful courses like 'Modern Mythology' where we got to study Tolkein, Lewis, L'Engle etc but only had to write one major paper LOL.

Heather

Sorry I didn't get back to this. LTOW and CW are kind of related. If I were smart enough and had the time I would use LTOW as my core program and pull in aspects of CW.

Basically, I believe - could be wrong here - that there are 2 basic traditions in rhetoric, the handbook type (Aristotle, Cicero, Quintilian, etc.) and the Progymnasmata. By the time of Cicero rhetoric was divided into 5 canons; Invention, Arrangement, Elocution, Memory, and Delivery. Within those canons are bits such as Aristotle's common topics, refutations, figures of speech, special topics such as Judicial, Deliberative and Ceremonial. It's with those bits that CW deals, so in CW you spend a good deal of time focusing on the bits, exercising all those rhetoric muscles and at the end you pull it all together. With LTOW your focus is more broad right from the get-go. Students are dealing with the first 3 canons of rhetoric immediately and as they progress they add in the bits, the topics, the refutations, the figures of speech. I guess you could say one (CW) is parts to whole and one (LTOW) is whole to parts? They're different though so it may be comparing apples to oranges in a way. I don't know. It's hard for me to get it all straight in my head.

Neither program is completed and therefore I'm in a place where I'm not quite sure either is going to get my oldest two to the finish line. In January we will finally be using The Argument Builder, which is a logic/rhetoric curriculum, CW Diogenes also implements portions of the theory of rhetoric and I think they will fit together nicely. The following year (grade 11) ds15 will use Classical Rhetoric. I'm not sure what I'll use for writing, maybe by that time I will be confident enough to pull together assignments from LTOW at his level.

In any case what I was trying to say before I started rambling is that I prefer LTOW over CW. I suppose I do for the same reason I prefer Latin programs that start you off reading and translating, it's no doubt caused by some character defect on my part. :blushing: Therefore, YMMV.

Karen

[Susan in SoCal]

Sorry for my tardy response. I've been absent from the boards the last couple months.

My ds12 is taking the online Maxim Diogenes class.

I can't say enough great things about it. Kathy is super-duper fantastic with the kids - enthusiastic, knowledgeable, fun & witty, insightful, pulls great discussion from them ... really, really wonderful.

The course load is pretty hefty (but then, that's kinda the nature of CW in general). The kids all post their work so everyone can see and comment. This element alone spurs my son to do his best work, and he's excited to share his stuff (this is a way different scenario than if it's just the two of us and he's merely slogging along to get it done).

I know Kathy makes herself available for checking/correcting/giving input on essays. I think the fee is something like $10 per essay, which isn't really unreasonable for that kind of service. I'm thinking that near the end of the year I might have her correct one or two of my son's papers, just so he can have feedback other than my own. I think that would be good for him.

Also, Kathy is totally available by email for any questions the students have during the week.

Really, truly, I feel like this is some of the best money I've spent this year.

[Melanie]

Thank you for the review! I've been thinking about this for my son; it's looking better and better. :)

[Heather in VA]

Susan...

Thank you so much for your feedback. This is very helpful. Would you mind if I ask you a few more questions? How old is your son? I'm assuming he did Homer before this. How are you handling the grammar assignments? This is a concern for me. My daughter will finish Analytical Grammar (all 3 sessions) next week. She has a very good command of her grammar and frankly I feel like we are done with grammar studies outside of our Latin. I don't mind discussing grammar in relation to our writing but I don't want to make her do more grammar exercises just to do grammar exercises.

Would that make the class less useful? Would we need to do the grammar exercises to be part of the class?

Thanks
Heather

[Kathie in VA]

I wish they offered the course for the Older Beginners back in September, it would have really helped out here. We've had many setbacks with schooling but are now on week 4 w/CW and beginning to find a routine. For the grammar we are using Harvey's and so far it's not too bad. We have a harder time with the analysis portion of CW.... but so far so good.

I have two kids in this so IFF we can continue without the course we will actually finnish earlier and would have saved a good amount of money. I do wish the course was by family not by student. :blink:

Anyway if we have the money I'd like to take the next course next year with both my kids. (Then again I'd like to take the VP Omnibus course too but I'm afraid that might be too much work together...not to mention the cost for both kids)

--Kathie in VA

14yog: CW-OB, SL core-100, BCM, VfCR, Apples Daily Spelling, Apologia Gen Sci, Rosetta Stone, Debate Co-op class

12yob: CW-OB, SL core-100, Mastering Math, VfCR, How to Spell, Apologia Gen Sci, Lively Latin, Reading Detective, Rosetta Stone, finnishing Fallacy Detective then Thinking Toolbox

9yob: CW-Aesop A, Classical Conversations-Foundations, History of US, Mastering Math, How to Spell, Lyrical Life Science-Human body, Rosetta Stone, Reading Detective-Beginning

[Kim in MO]

Hi Heather,

Believe it or not, I think this might be my first post on the new boards. I wanted to chime in to say that my son is in the same class as Susan in SoCal's son and I'm loving it too. My son is 12 and he did Aesop and about 3/4 of Homer. I had planned to wait until next fall to do Diogenes, but when Kathy offered the course, I e-mailed to ask her a few questions and decided to go with it. I'm so glad I did!

She truly gets the students involved, she explains the concepts well, and she injects great enthusiasm for the subject. The weekly assignments are pretty hefty. There's usually a reading assignment to provide more background for what we're studying, such as a bio on Benjamin Franklin when we studied his Silence Dogood letters. There's often a grammar assignment in conjunction with the grammar theory in the book, and of course, a writing project. We have taken to skipping the grammar assigments. Try as I might over the years, I just can't stick with Harvey's. We do R&S and are on our own grammar track. It hasn't been a problem. The course is meaty enough with analyzing the essays and learning to write the essay components.

As I've always said with CW, it's so much more than writing. I have loved analyzing essays and letters such as Franklin's Silence Dogood. We are learning rhetorical appeals and studying the piece parts of the letters and essays to see how they were written. When we read The Gettysburg Address yesterday in history, I was able to draw from our rhetoric lessons in CW to discuss the occasion and Lincoln's approach in his speech.

In short, Susan may disagree with me :-), but I think you'll do just fine without the grammar component. However, because your daughter has done as much grammar as she has, you might find the grammar exercises in CW useful in applying what she has learned.

Hope that helps!

Kim

[Susan in SoCal]

Now, Kim ... when have we ever disagreed??? (ok, there was that one time about the LOTR movies and maybe Star Wars? :tongue_smilie:). Anyway, fun to see you here!

Heather -
This is just my off-the-cuff response. I kinda look at the online class the same way I look at the CW material in general. In any given week, there's a TON of stuff to do. Over the years with all our CW work, we've picked and chosen what to do and what NOT to do (often alternating - ie. one week concentrating on grammar, next week skipping grammar exercises to concentrate on writing).

Re: the online class (shhhhh.... [looking over my shoulder to make sure ds isn't seeing] ... I'm letting my son believe that pretty much everything assigned is required to be done. I'm finding him capable of being a much quicker writer than I suspected. And he's able to rise to the tasks at hand.) That said, we don't do any of the Harvey's assignments. My son might do a cursory read thru the book to see the specific topic, but it's usually stuff he's already seen in Latin, and we treat it as review. I do have him do some (not all) of the 6 sentence shuffle work, because I think that work is good for building his "copia" muscles.

Yes, part of each class time is devoted to discussing grammar. Even if your student has skipped the Harvey's work, it's pretty easy either to participate in that discussion anyway, or to remain "silent" during that part. Your choice.

Oh, and my son has just turned 12. I had been planning to hold off a year before beginning Diogenes with him (which I do think might be a very good plan for students who struggle with writing. Diogenes is MEATY. And requires much analytical thought.). But Kim's enthusiasm and gentle nudging encouraged me to join the class this year. And it's been great!

My last confession: I've always LOVED CW, but (dare I say?) hated teaching it. This class has been the PERFECT solution. I still love CW AND the wonderful, brilliant Kathy Weitz teaches it for me :-).

I'm just really, really, really hoping she's gonna teach all the way thru the series!!!

[Heather in VA]

Ok guys - you've convinced me. I just signed up. Thank you all so much for your input.

I completely agree with the idea that I like CW but HATE teaching it. If this works out I will definately want to sign up each year - maybe for both of my kids. My younger is doing Homer A right now and I just dread every minute of the teaching. It has to affect how well I teach it too. Maybe I should email Kathy and see if she knows what she plans to teach next year.

Praying for a Homer and a Herodetus (that is not how you spell that) class next year.

Heather

[Jackie in AR]

I can't say enough great things about it. Kathy is super-duper fantastic with the kids - enthusiastic, knowledgeable, fun & witty, insightful, pulls great discussion from them ... really, really wonderful.

The course load is pretty hefty (but then, that's kinda the nature of CW in general). The kids all post their work so everyone can see and comment. This element alone spurs my son to do his best work, and he's excited to share his stuff (this is a way different scenario than if it's just the two of us and he's merely slogging along to get it done).

I know Kathy makes herself available for checking/correcting/giving input on essays. I think the fee is something like $10 per essay, which isn't really unreasonable for that kind of service. I'm thinking that near the end of the year I might have her correct one or two of my son's papers, just so he can have feedback other than my own. I think that would be good for him.

Also, Kathy is totally available by email for any questions the students have during the week.

Really, truly, I feel like this is some of the best money I've spent this year.

I don't know how I've missed this question up until now.

My boys, ages 13 and 13, are currently enrolled in the two semester Maxim/Chreia class.

I wholeheartedly agree with Susan's above assessment: Kathy is a knowledgeable, enthusiastic teacher, and I highly recommend her. (You probably know that she wrote the CW workbooks.)

The workload of getting through both Maxim and Chreia this year is very hefty, but it has helped immensely that my dc had worked through Aesop, Homer, and part of Maxim before they began the class. We've also scaled back in some other things (namely math and science, which they were a little ahead in) in order to get through these two volumes before the boys hit high school.

We haven't yet used Kathy's writing evaluation service, but I anticipate that we will once we get past the holidays.

[Heather in VA]

Thanks Jackie,

I really wish I had signed up for the Maxim/Chreia class at the beginning of year. I'm going to do the Maxim class but then I'm at a loss as to how to go from there. It seems like a lot of time to take a year of high school for Chreia but I get the feeling that we'll like this class and I'll need the online classes to use the higher levels.

I did email Kathy to see what her future online class plans are and her recommendations for high schoolers who have only finished Maxim. Of course I'm sure all things are subject to change but I'm curious what she's hoping to do.

Thanks to everyone. You've really helped me feel very good about this decision.

Heather

[Beth in SW WA]

Hey gang,
I'm considering this for ds 13. I've been emailing Kathy and she has been very helpful -- and patient w/ all my questions.

What do I need to buy for Maxim?

How much time per week will I have to commit to evaluating/grading etc. Is the online class "live" in real time (like TPS)?

I don't mind the price of her class. I'm already paying a small fortune for a writing tutor (but I don't think its a good fit).

Thank you in advance!!

[Beth in SW WA]

bump :)

[Karenciavo]

It's on the web site (http://sites.google.com/site/classicalwritingtutorials/tutorials-offered/diogenes-maxim-one-semester). You need both the Core and the Student text (latest edition) and they recommend Harvey's Grammar (although you can substitute), but if you go with Harvey's you could also buy the workbook and answer key.

[Beth in SW WA]

It's on the web site (http://sites.google.com/site/classicalwritingtutorials/tutorials-offered/diogenes-maxim-one-semester). You need both the Core and the Student text (latest edition) and they recommend Harvey's Grammar (although you can substitute), but if you go with Harvey's you could also buy the workbook and answer key.

Thanks! I am buying a used set from LisaNY!

Anyone else taking the class on Fridays at 11 Eastern w/ Kathy?

[Karenciavo]

I thought that one was already in progress? Are you able to start it mid year or is there another Friday class? My ds15 will be involved with the Tuesday class (but he doesn't know it yet :D)

[Beth in SW WA]

I thought that one was already in progress? Are you able to start it mid year or is there another Friday class? My ds15 will be involved with the Tuesday class (but he doesn't know it yet :D)

Yes, I think she is putting ds in the Friday class which began in the Fall. She thinks it will be ok.

And I swore we would NEVER do CW. Never say never :)