And...Kingfisher strikes again. Here's your chance...

[Susan Wise Bauer]

...to tell me what YOU would pick for logic-stage history, given the chance to write TWTM yourself.

I can hardly believe this, but once again Kingfisher has let their history encyclopedia go out of print with absolutely no warning. As in: last week it was available, this week it isn't. And, of course, I had picked it once more for the history spine in the logic stage of TWTM. :banghead:

I have a couple of alternatives in mind, and three whole days to make the changes in the galleys, which are almost ready to go to the printer. But I thought I'd ask any of you who might be interested to weigh in with favorites.

SWB

[readwithem]

wow that's amazing!! Do you think they're out to get you? :)

Maybe Usborne Encyclopedia of World History but I don't like it nearly as much as Kingfisher.

http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-World-History-Jane-Bingham/dp/0794503322/ref=pd_sim_b_3

Do you think the red book will go > $100 like the white book did?:lol:

[Nicole M]

Oh, dear.

We are using some of Suzanne Strauss Art's books, but to be honest, they aren't terrifically homeschool friendly (imho). It's hard to know how much to cover and at what pace, what a reasonable amount would be for a lesson. That was a nice feature of Kingfisher, do-able chunks.

I'm curious to know what others will say.

Sorry about this. Pretty awful time of year to have to make last minute changes.

[Cadam]

I am using SOTW and Streams of Civilization. Not perfect but it is working for us and I only choose selections from Streams for my 6th grader. He outlines SOTW and I read more of streams than he does, it gives me good background information for discussions.

Is this where you yell "Stop the presses!!"?

You know we have all been discussing this issue the last couple of weeks and waiting to see what the Overmind would say.

[Tami]

For our second ancients cycle, 7th grade, we are using the Usborne Encyclopedia of the Ancient World (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=4511418&event=CF) and the two Famous Men (http://www.amazon.com/Famous-Men-Greece-Greenleaf-Press/dp/1882514017)books (Greece and Rome.

For 8th grade, we plan to use 100 Most Important Events in Church History, Heroes of the Middle Ages (http://www.amazon.com/Heroes-Middle-Ages-Yesterdays-Classics/dp/1599151693/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228316428&sr=1-4) by Tappan, along with the Usborne Internet Linked Medieval World (http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/details.asp?sid=B1306&gid=72902983&title=Medieval+World+IL&sqlwhere=submit%3Dsearch%26search%3Dmedieval).

We'll probably go with Western Civilization by Spielvogel for the rest of the cycle, up to modern times, but not totally sure yet. :tongue_smilie:

Blessings on your search!

*edit -- I saw that Usborne has a World History Encyclopedia (http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/details.asp?sid=B1306&gid=72902983&title=Encyclopedia+of+World+History+IL+C%2FV&sqlwhere=submit%3Dsearch%26search%3Dworld%2Bhistor y) that is Internet-Linked. It may be a suitable substitute for the elusive KF?

[Blossom'sGirl]

We get free access through our local school district. This would also help children gain skills in computer research. I have not approached outlining yet with my oldest, but I think he could do it with a list of topics to read and then briefly outline each. The biggest problem would be not getting overwhelmed with the amount of information available. That is where a specific list may help. I typed in Phoenicians just to see what I came up and the first topic was Tyre with 3 interesting paragraphs about it.

I still like pouring through real books but the constant updating of history books will always be an issue.

[inashoe]

with Logic Stage History. We want a text suitable for outlining for a typical 5th grader. It is important that our dc learn to outline, and history is an ideal subject in which to do it. JUST GIVE US THE TEXT :banghead:

We were spoilt with SOTW - it was interesting, fascinated our grammar stage kids, gave them a love for History, just enough facts. But now they are ready for more indepth, KF is too superficial - briefly giving the barest of facts.

Everything I have looked at is just too difficult for a 5th grader to outline. Streams of Civilizations is nice to read, but not many facts. Library books typically cover one topic per chapter, lots of fluff, with the facts few and far between. Not easy for a 10yo to outline.

Sometimes I think I should just switch to Trisms.

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

but I prefer Usbourne's Internet-Linked World Encyclopedia.

It's very "outline-friendly" if not as detailed as KFH.

hth,

K

[Beth in Central TX]

I'll second Streams of Civilization Volumes I & II; I'm using them at a very slow pace from 5th to 8th grade.

[Nicole M]

I'll second Streams of Civilization Volumes I & II; I'm using them at a very slow pace from 5th to 8th grade.

Well, I hope Susan would offer a secular alternative. There is no way that this would work for us, though we are comfortable with many Christian texts, and are ourselves Christian.

I really don't mean to be offensive, so I hope that this does not come across that way. I'm just not convinced that SOC would have a broad appeal.

[Cadam]

with Logic Stage History. We want a text suitable for outlining for a typical 5th grader. It is important that our dc learn to outline, and history is an ideal subject in which to do it. JUST GIVE US THE TEXT :banghead:

We were spoilt with SOTW - it was interesting, fascinated our grammar stage kids, gave them a love for History, just enough facts. But now they are ready for more indepth, KF is too superficial - briefly giving the barest of facts.

Everything I have looked at is just too difficult for a 5th grader to outline. Streams of Civilizations is nice to read, but not many facts. Library books typically cover one topic per chapter, lots of fluff, with the facts few and far between. Not easy for a 10yo to outline.

Sometimes I think I should just switch to Trisms.

I think she is just a tad busy to add "write Logic stage history Text" to her to-do list.:D I think that is why she is asking us for help. I am sure it is just as frustrating for her as it is for us.

[Trivium Academy]

How about the H.E. Marshall books? or M.B. Synge?
We have Streams but we'll be reading the Marshall and Synge books the most as a spine.

I know it'd be more expensive but what about Eyewitness Books on topics? I like DK History: The Definitive Visual Guide, I actually sold our Kingfisher (Mandela cover) b/c I wasn't thrilled with it overall.

[Kimber]

I don't know if the vocabulary is too hard, but for the high school kids at co-op this year, I had them outline the Visual History of the Modern World. It was great for outlining.

It's a bummer that this happened.

Kimberly

[sagira]

I was just going to say DK's History of the World (http://www.amazon.com/History-World-Third-Revised-Updated/dp/0756631440/ref=pd_bbs_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228320775&sr=8-10). It keeps being revised, the latest edition being 2007. It's sure to be visually interesting and secular.

Too bad, because I liked Kingfisher's History Encyclopedia. My library used to carry it, but now it's mysteriously disappeared. I wanted to get it, but my dc are so young by then the latest will be/could be significantly revised (5 years from now).

[Nicole M]

I think she is just a tad busy to add "write Logic stage history Text" to her to-do list.:D I think that is why she is asking us for help. I am sure it is just as frustrating for her as it is for us.

Based on the number of posts here about logic stage history, I'm thinkin' there's definitely a market for a new book!

The irony, though, is that there has been pretty much no consensus here, but only continual angst, and I have been holding my breath, waiting for the new edition, hoping for Problem Solved.

[Pongo]

I would go with Oxfords Childrens History of the World by Neil Grant (http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Childrens-History-World-Grant/dp/0199115745/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_a), thats what we use. Its a combniation of Usborne/Kingfisher style. My dd has been outling this even though we use TOG. I own the Kingfisher(red cover) but I never felt like it was "outline friendly" for a logic stage child. Instead I have her outline the corrosponding chapters to the Oxford text. It is secular, I just skipped the first two chapters. It's under $20 and it's great!

ETA: The Oxfords Childrens Book of Science is also really good

[Alte Veste Academy]

I really like the Oxford Children's History of the World. I love the Oxford history books in general. I don't know what the availability is given Amazon's 2-4 week shipping statement on this item, but it looks similar to Kingfisher.

http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Childrens-History-World-Grant/dp/0199115745/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228321915&sr=1-2

The problem I have with DK is that the outlining work is practically already done for the kids. There is no real flow to the story of history, just snippets of information and bullets. I'm nowhere near logic stage with my kids yet, but it seems that you would need history presented in story form in order to develop the skill of condensing it to its most important points for outline form.

Kristina

ETA: Well, I took 20 minutes to write this, feeding kids graham crackers... In essence, I agree with Pongo!

[angela&4boys]

My humble vote is for The Usborne Internet-Linked Encyclopedia of World History for the following reasons:



clear, concise presentation
readily available
budget-friendly
internet extensions
hardback or paperback
age 8 and up
combines 4 volumes in 1 (We own and enjoy Ancient World and Medieval World.)

[Beth in SW WA]

Well, I hope Susan would offer a secular alternative. There is no way that this would work for us, though we are comfortable with many Christian texts, and are ourselves Christian.

I really don't mean to be offensive, so I hope that this does not come across that way. I'm just not convinced that SOC would have a broad appeal.

I agree. It had many errors and was not up to snuff, imho. It would not work for old earth creationists, like us.

[Beth in SW WA]

My humble vote is for The Usborne Internet-Linked Encyclopedia of World History for the following reasons:



clear, concise presentation
readily available
budget-friendly
internet extensions
hardback or paperback
age 8 and up
combines 4 volumes in 1 (We own and enjoy Ancient World and Medieval World.)


:iagree:

We use it also and my dd loves it. She thinks she's net-surfing (when actually its very controlled w/ the specific web pages).

I am referring to the edition w/ the Saxon helmet on the front.

It is secular, which would appeal to the masses. Folks can add their own Christian twist on history, if so inclined. As Christians, we have no problem using Usborne.

[Cadam]

Based on the number of posts here about logic stage history, I'm thinkin' there's definitely a market for a new book!

The irony, though, is that there has been pretty much no consensus here, but only continual angst, and I have been holding my breath, waiting for the new edition, hoping for Problem Solved.

I think we would all buy such a book in a flash but Susan is revising WTM, writing the adult history of the world set, writing WWE workbooks, teaching a class at W&M, oh ya, and mothering/ homeschooling 4 kids. I would love the book! Maybe she will write it in time to use with my grandchildren. ;)

[Stacia]

Oxford University Press has "The World in Ancient Times" series. Of course, that only covers one year of logic stage. There are a few similar books they have for other time periods in history.

The biggest downside to these books, imo, is that there are many of them needed to cover one year of history (i.e., Ancient Egypt, Ancient Near East, Ancient Greece, etc...), which makes it a very pricey option.

The upside is that hey are great, very in-depth & well-written. They also include primary source quotes & text.

At one time, weren't you recommending Van Loon's book too?

For an overall encyclopedia, I'll vote for Usborne's Internet-Linked Encyclopedia of World History.

[WTMCassandra]

Now, this DOES look interesting. I came on here to stump for DK, but while I think it's a good spine, I think it's hard to outline. We like and use Dempsey-Parr alongside the two KFs and the DK, and the DP is great for my younger child (for whom outlining is tougher).

But, hmmm, that doesn't stop me from looking at the Oxford one!

[Pongo]

[QUOTE=Stacia;673588]Oxford University Press has "The World in Ancient Times" series. Of course, that only covers one year of logic stage. There are a few similar books they have for other time periods in history.

The biggest downside to these books, imo, is that there are many of them needed to cover one year of history (i.e., Ancient Egypt, Ancient Near East, Ancient Greece, etc...), which makes it a very pricey option.

[QUOTE]

Actually , they make a Childrens World History Book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0199115745/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance);) and it's very good.

[WTMCassandra]

Yes, I really like these, and they are great for primary source material, BUT, they are soooo expensive.

[Cadam]

The Oxford books look great but I nearly fell out of my chair when I saw the price tag. 230$ for books to cover one year of Logic stage history!! :001_huh: I think I will have to muddle through without them.

[Beth in Central TX]

I agree. It had many errors and was not up to snuff, imho. It would not work for old earth creationists, like us.

That's why SWB always gives a couple of options in her recommendations; every homeschool has a different need based on our personal preferences as teachers and parents.

I extremely dislike The Usborne Internet-Linked Encyclopedia of World History because of its old world secular view of history. In addition, I really don't think that the writing is challenging enough for the upper logic ages (7th & 8th grade). Of course, the biggest draw back for me is all of busyness on the pages which is why I didn't use KF too.

ETA: For me, history is the most challenging subject in our homeschool. Luckily, we aren't very history-oriented, so I've been able to plan and organize a decent exposure during the grammar & logic stages, but it is far from perfect.

[Kfamily]

by Hendrik Willem van Loon and I really like this book.



Plaid Dad,from LCC, recommends A Little History of the World by E.H. Gombrich for roughly this age group (for older beginners who are just starting LCC). This also looks like a great book.

HTH:001_smile:

[dragons in the flower bed]

My humble vote is for The Usborne Internet-Linked Encyclopedia of World History for the following reasons:



clear, concise presentation
readily available
budget-friendly
internet extensions
hardback or paperback
age 8 and up
combines 4 volumes in 1 (We own and enjoy Ancient World and Medieval World.)


I would second this, adding that the internet extensions are helpful when assigning research reports to fifth graders and to help kids contrast sources.

[Colleen in NS]

...to tell me what YOU would pick for logic-stage history, given the chance to write TWTM yourself.

I can hardly believe this, but once again Kingfisher has let their history encyclopedia go out of print with absolutely no warning. As in: last week it was available, this week it isn't. And, of course, I had picked it once more for the history spine in the logic stage of TWTM. :banghead:

I have a couple of alternatives in mind, and three whole days to make the changes in the galleys, which are almost ready to go to the printer. But I thought I'd ask any of you who might be interested to weigh in with favorites.

SWB

I'd pick SOTW for a spine and outlining practice, and UILEWH for timeline dates and maps. And the usual list of supplemental reading. We are using SOTW for a spine for 5th this year, because I gave up on KF for outlining (SOTW/lib. books/World Book articles for outlining this year). We just use KF for dates and maps and extra reading, but I'd use the Usborne one if I didn't have KF.

However, whatever you decide, I am sure I will be having a look at it when the new WTM comes out! :) Hang in there.

[Kanga]

Well my first suggestion is to have your publishing house purchase the rights to The Kingfisher Illustrated History of the World! ;)

I believe the most important aspect in this section of TWTM is not the actual book recommendation, but the outline demonstration. For some parents, myself included, teaching outling is a daunting task. It is more important for the parent to learn how to teach this concept and to understand what expectations to set for the child than it is to have a particular book recommened to use for outlining. Would it be possible to take excerts from several different books and then demonstrate how they should be outlined? I would even forgive the use of an out-of-print book if more tips were included on remediation.:) I appreciate the schedule suggestions, especially ideas on how much to do per week, and the information on how to incorporate the use of the notebook in the student's studies. However as in outlining, I feel that the actual book recommendation takes a back seat to the "how to" section of this chapter.

-Ann

For the record, I am partial to Oxford.

[TaraTheLiberator]

I am using the Usborne Internet-Linked Encyclopedia of World History as a supplement to SOTW and I don't think it would be suitable for logic-stage history at all. It is very interesting, and the web links are outstanding, but I think its usefulness for outlining is very, very poor. It is designed to give "blurbs" of information, not narrative, flowing text.

My first vote is for the Oxford Children's History of the World. My second vote is for the DK Definitive Visual Guide, although I think it would be a bit much for a 5th grader, and maybe a sixth grader, given that some kids start 5th grade at 10 years old.

Tara

[Renee in FL]

My first vote is for the Oxford Children's History of the World.

I like the way this looks, but I hate that it is only available new in softcover.

[TaraTheLiberator]

Well my first suggestion is to have your publishing house purchase the rights to The Kingfisher Illustrated History of the World! ;)



I second this motion.

Tara

[Crimson Wife]

I like the way this looks, but I hate that it is only available new in softcover.

:iagree:

It's also a little thin for the time frame it covers. 192 pp vs. 491 for the KHE.

Is anybody familiar with the National Geographic books Concise History of the World: An Illustrated Timeline and the Almanac of World History? They also look interesting...

[Nan in Mass]

I liked the old Kingfisher enough that we went to ebay and bought two more, at what I thought at the time was a large amount of money. Since then, I've been buying high school and college textbooks, and the $80 or so that we paid for each enormous thick book chock full of pictures that lasts for 4 years and then will be used as a reference for a lifetime just doesn't seem like that big a deal any more. I'm really glad we did it. I was even glad at the time. One of my children used the copy my sister had given me for Christmas, and when the next child hit logic stage, the older one refused to give it up, even though he was now in high school and (happily) using Spielvogel's Western Civ. He said he was going to take it to college with him. Hmmm... So we ordered another one for me, and one for the youngest. I can tell that we are going to have the same problem with Spielvogel.

I have both the first and second editions of TWTM, but I've continued to use the logic stage history list from the first edition. The recommendations in it were so very, very good, that I just continued to search alibris.com and order things used. Some of our favourites have been The History of Everyday Things series, Pharoah's of Ancient Egypt, Story of the World, the Connolly books, We Had Everything but Money, Stars and Swastikas (my older one said it was one of the best books he had ever read because it explained both sides of the war), The Boy's War, Lincoln: A Photobiography, the Macauley books, The Day Pearl Harbor Was Bombed, and the Time Life children's book of photos of the 20th cent. (can't remember the title) and bio of Hitler (also can't remember the title). I gave my children the Early Times books to read, and they enjoyed them and seem to have remembered the material fairly well, but they weren't favourites. One of mine read the Hakim books and didn't mind them, but the other one gagged. Spielvogel has been a hit, and I expect the younger one will also like it. We started with Spielvogel's Odyssey, since history isn't really "our thing" and I was looking for a less time-consuming option, but my son said that he already knew it all from Kingfisher, so we switched to Western Civ. That is at exactly the right level to follow Kingfisher and all the logic reading. We only outlined Kingfisher and read the rest and wrote a report occasionally, but despite our bad memories, they seem to have learned lots of history.

So, the reason I told you all that is that I'm hoping you can put any of our favourites that are out of print in the new version anyway, and just put in a note saying that they are out of print but might be worth getting used. I remember you doing that in a few cases in the past. I'd just hate to see people miss these. They made history come alive for my children, especially when put together with the literature books. I suspect that all their history reading is a good part of the reason they are reading great books so happily now. We like our history heavily illustrated, and your selections have been great for us, meaty but appropriate age-wise. They've given my children an enthusiasm for history that there is no way I could have provided on my own.

-Nan

[inashoe]

I think she is just a tad busy to add "write Logic stage history Text" to her to-do list.

I am sure SWB knows I was tongue in cheek.:001_smile:

I can understand her frustration with KF going OOP, but there is a blessing in all this. A lot of us don't find KF ideal for outlining, and she did say she was going to recommend it again in the next edition of WTM. I was quite disappointed to read that - I had been planning on getting the next WTM just to find out what the *NEW* recommendations are for Logic stage history.

I have been looking at the Oxford Children's as recommended on this thread at Amazon. The text is certainly less busy and punctuated than KF. It does have flowing paragraphs, but seems a bit young for the average 5th grader, not to mention 6 to 8th graders.

[Carol in Cal.]

Going back through SOTW, using higher level supplemental reading, and interspersing it with All American History as well as Critical Thinking in US History once you get to the relevant time periods. AAH is not nearly as well written as SOTW, but it does have a fairly sophisticated vocabulary and has short answer and fill in the blanks assignments that send the student back to the text, kind of like teaching notetaking. Outlining could be done from either AAH or SOTW. AAH is hard for a 5 grader, IMO, but very reasonable for a 7th or 8th grader.

I would also suggest going through the first two books of SOTW more quickly than in two years. I would think that students would want to finish them in 1 1/2 years because of the increased time commitment in the upper grades with the US history additions.

[training5]

Hmm...how about suggesting the use of SOTW for a 2nd round? That combined with the new WWE for logic gives the outlining practice as needed. The one problem I see with it would be that the student pages would seem 'young' for logic age.

Sub in a year of US (A History of US, maybe?)/UK history for one of the logic years? Guess I actually don't have any good ideas. I am sorry.

A new spine...how about The Oxford Encyclopedia series? I haven't seen them but you had suggested the Ancient World one as a supplemental read for logic age. I, too, need a secular option.

[Spy Car]

Should we assume there will be a new version of Kingfisher coming out to replace the last, and that they just happen to share a revision cycle with WTM?

Or are they "dropping" their history encyclopedia altogether?

Bill

[WTMCassandra]

Now this is a great idea, but it might be really big $$$$$$ for a small publishing house to come up with.

[training5]

If Kingfisher isn't dropping, just revising. Someone call and suggest they go back to the 1993 format!

[Cadam]

Well my first suggestion is to have your publishing house purchase the rights to The Kingfisher Illustrated History of the World!



Not a bad idea, then they can go back and print the old version that people like better. That is a lot of cash to come up with though.

[Nan in Mass]

I third it.

[training5]

Would SWB be willing to share her 3 alternatives with us for feedback?

[Spy Car]

How about the H.E. Marshall books? or M.B. Synge?
We have Streams but we'll be reading the Marshall and Synge books the most as a spine.


Have you pre-read H.E. Marshall's "This Country of Ours"?

I found her freely expressed bigotry eliminated this work from consideration for use in our home.

Bill

[Chris in VA]

Christine Miller's redos are pretty good. I don't know if they have enough facts and enough content, tho. Perhaps two spines--Miller's for the story aspect and something encyclopedic like Dk's history for the factual part?

Could you--gasp--perhaps use a text book of some sort?

Maybe MOH 1 and 2 for an option? If you could do a religious option and a secular, it might work better.

I, for one, do not want to go thru SOTW again, only because I want more connections and logic stage work starting in 5th grade.

Perhaps you could recommend DK's 20th Century book--or the CD-Rom--I think the book is also OOP--for the last part of 8th grade as a good supplement. We used it in Sonlight 300, and while I wouldn't want it for the only spine, it was fairly interesting.

[Heather in NC]

I can only say what we are using for this stage:

5th grade: Famous Men of Greece, Rome
6th grade: Famous Men of Middle Ages, Renaissance, Modern Times
7th and 8th grade: A History of US (Hakim)

We use the study guides that go along with each of these as well.

[Karenciavo]

Have you pre-read H.E. Marshall's "This Country of Ours"?

I found her freely expressed bigotry eliminated this work from consideration for use in our home.

Bill

She uses terms common in the day the book was written, she does not use them as hateful monikers.

[nmoira]

Oxford University Press has "The World in Ancient Times" series. Of course, that only covers one year of logic stage. There are a few similar books they have for other time periods in history.For those balking at the price, keep an eye out. We picked up this and the corresponding medieval series in March for less than $60 each, new from Amazon.

[mcconnellboys]

Well, I would not[I] choose Streams of Civ, sorry. I can't abide it.

There are a few series out, such as by Scholastic, but I don't know that any of them are widely available or affordable. Nor do any of them cover all the time periods.

Usborne's History of the Ancient World is a little more in-depth than their general world history, but do they have one of these for every time period? Is there a bind up of all time periods? That might work, if so....

The DK encyclopedia is [I]so busy! Unless newer editions of it have changed, I don't know about using it at all, especially with younger children.

[nmoira]

We're going to use the updated Story of Mankind... by Hendrik Willem van Loon and I really like this book.We're probably going to use this as a narrative as well. I've been flirting with DK's History: A Definitive Visual Guide (http://www.amazon.com/History-Definitive-Visual-Civilization-Present/dp/075663119X/) as our logic spine, coupled with DK's Timelines of World History (http://www.amazon.com/Timelines-World-History-John-Teeple/dp/0756617030/). They are both written for adults, but my oldest is advanced enough I think it would be usable.

[Spy Car]

She uses terms common in the day the book was written, she does not use them as hateful monikers.

H.E. Marshall's writings certainly reflects some of the worst aspects of an earlier era, but it extends well beyond "hateful monikers" and includes bigotry toward a number of ethnic and religious groups. I find her writing extremely offensive and they are not materials I consider to be appropriate for teaching children in the 21st Century.

Bill

[melissaL]

Hmm...how about suggesting the use of SOTW for a 2nd round? That combined with the new WWE for logic gives the outlining practice as needed. The one problem I see with it would be that the student pages would seem 'young' for logic age.

.

We use SOTW for the logic stage. we also use a few other history encyclopedias, as extra to beef it up:
Kingfisher,
Usborne book of world history,
Family Encyclopedia of History - Readers Digest not chronological at all, but has more information than kingfisher or usborne
I hate DK history of the world -not enough information at all.
Longman history of the world, ( more of a reference book)

[Karenciavo]

While I don't want my children to refer to Native Americans as "savages" (among other terms she *sometimes* used), I do not necessarily consider it bigotry that someone 100 years ago did. It may very be that 100 years hence some of the terms we use in the name of political-correctness will be considered bigoted. I would hope my logic stage child could understand that as well.

Sorry for the hijack SWB.

[Spy Car]

While I don't want my children to refer to Native Americans as "savages" (among other terms she *sometimes* used), I do not necessarily consider it bigotry that someone 100 years ago did. It may very be that 100 years hence some of the terms we use in the name of political-correctness will be considered bigoted. I would hope my logic stage child could understand that as well.

Sorry for the hijack SWB.

Or that slavery wasn't that bad, and most of the enslaved were happy in their servitude. Or that Mormans are shiftless, and lazy thieves. Or that Native Americans are double-dealing and untrustworthy liars who will pretend to be friends and then slit your throat. Or....

I'm also sorry for the hijack Susan, but this book is (to my way of thinking) utterly contemptible.

Bill (who's moving off the subject in this thread)

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Yeah. The thread's been helpful so far, though, so maybe it could shift back on topic?

SWB

[Spy Car]

Susan, do you know if there will be a new edition of the Kingfisher encyclopedia to replace the discontinued text?

[Colleen in NS]

I believe the most important aspect in this section of TWTM is not the actual book recommendation, but the outline demonstration. For some parents, myself included, teaching outling is a daunting task. It is more important for the parent to learn how to teach this concept and to understand what expectations to set for the child than it is to have a particular book recommened to use for outlining. Would it be possible to take excerts from several different books and then demonstrate how they should be outlined?

:iagree:

Any chance you'll be including something like this? WWE is soooooo helpful at fleshing out your WTM recs for writing in grammar stage, that it would be great if you included a little more detail for logic stage, since WWS is not available yet.

[Mama Lynx]

My 5th grader reads and outlines from SOTW.

My 7th grader uses that horrible This Country of Ours (we manage to discuss the bigotry and bias, occasionally with outright howls of laughter) and Our Island Story. I don't like those as much for outlining as I do SOTW.

But for TWTM, I think I'd recommend the Usborne Internet-Linked Encyclopedia.

[inashoe]

We're probably going to use this as a narrative as well. I've been flirting with DK's History: A Definitive Visual Guide (http://www.amazon.com/History-Definitive-Visual-Civilization-Present/dp/075663119X/) as our logic spine ... written for adults, but my oldest is advanced enough I think it would be usable.

I looked at the pages available for this on Amazon, and it looks really good. Our children who have been through all of SOTW are wanting something a bit more indepth, and KF doesn't give any "new" information. My ds doesn't find KF satisfying for his curiosity. This looks like it might be indepth and challenging. It certainly seems to have a lot more detail that KF.

I think outlining might just work - from what I can see the paragraphs look like they each develop one main idea, with supporting details.

Although it does go chronologically through history, the approach is somewhat different. KF, Usborne and most other encyclopedias that we have looked at are strictly fact based, giving facts of events, births, deaths, rulers - this book discusses ideas, causes and consequences. I know WTM starts off the Logic Stage History chapter stating that our Logic Stage kids are ready for cause and consequences in History, but are they ready yet for the ideas of history - where they came from, how they developed, and how they influenced history ? I am a bit concerned that it might be a bit too advanced for a 5th or 6th grader.

I do appreciate how it deals with the "evolution" of mankind. Many of the secular texts give an artists impression of what scientists surmise might have been the passage from ape to man. I find these artistic impressions offensive. They pass off as fact what is in fact a theory.

This DK book seems to stick to the facts. The chapter Our Remote Ancestors starts off with "The evolution of modern humans extends back millions of years . It is not easy to trace, as our evidence comes from scattered , unrelated finds, making it difficult to form a cohesive picture." This is in fact more truthful, admitting that the different archeological finds are "unrelated". It then gives pictures of skull bones, which have in fact been found - but not an artists impression of an ape standing up, walking on two legs, getting taller, and then changing into a human - fantasy.

Anyway, I think this book does deserve some consideration and I am curious to hear what others think about it.

[sagira]

Yes, I think the DK's History: A Definitive Visual Guide looks excellent as well. I was looking through it online.

[Peela]

It's probably not suitable for TWTM, but for others here, particularly of the secular kind, I have K12's text The Human Odyssey, Volume 1, Prehistory Through the Middle Ages. We used it for our Logic Stage Ancients this last year. I don't use K12- I actually bought it by mistake, thinking it was something else, but it has been perfect for us.
The 1st section is hunter/gatherers then quickly moves onto Sumer and early civilizations. The 2nd is on The birth of early religions and ways of thinking- Confucius, Hinduism, Buddha, Judaism, and the Greeks. The 3rd section is on the Classical World- Greeks and Romans and Christianity. The 4th is on the Medieval World including the rise and spread of Islam, Africa, Europe, Vikings, China, the Mongols and more. It is written in a narrative style suitable for Logic age students, as it definitely goes into the connections and whys and especially into the way people thought- and is also good for outlining. Of course, the Medieval section is only 1/4 of the book.
So if you come across one, its worth checking out. There is a 2nd volume, presumably for up to the present, but I haven't seen it.
ISBN is 1-931728-53-4 (v.1)
Authors are Cribb, Klee and Holdren

[matroyshka]

The Oxford books look great but I nearly fell out of my chair when I saw the price tag. 230$ for books to cover one year of Logic stage history!! :001_huh: I think I will have to muddle through without them.

I was just pointed at these, and I'm happy to find out that my ILL has most of them.

They do also have a Medieval/Early Modern set that goes through 1800 - doesn't that cover the next two years of the cycle?

[Karie]

What about the Oxford First Ancient History book. It focuses just on Ancient History and is 320 pages long. Of course, that only covers 1/4 of the history cycle.

http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-First-Ancient-History-Books/dp/0195213734/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228356986&sr=8-1

[Melissa B]

I really like VanLoon's History of Mankind and Story of America.
I also like Hakim's A History of US, but that wouldn't work for the full four years.

[Crimson Wife]

What about the Oxford First Ancient History book. It focuses just on Ancient History and is 320 pages long. Of course, that only covers 1/4 of the history cycle.

The concern I would have with this book is that judging from the table of contents, it's too focused on Mediterranean civilizations, especially Greece & Rome. I have the same problem with the Usborne IL Encyclopedia of the Ancient World.

One of the nice features of the KHE is that it is very inclusive in the topics it covers. I'd like to see the same in whatever reference book makes the final cut in the new edition of TWTM.

[Beth in SW WA]

That's why SWB always gives a couple of options in her recommendations; every homeschool has a different need based on our personal preferences as teachers and parents.

I extremely dislike The Usborne Internet-Linked Encyclopedia of World History because of its old world secular view of history. In addition, I really don't think that the writing is challenging enough for the upper logic ages (7th & 8th grade). Of course, the biggest draw back for me is all of busyness on the pages which is why I didn't use KF too.

ETA: For me, history is the most challenging subject in our homeschool. Luckily, we aren't very history-oriented, so I've been able to plan and organize a decent exposure during the grammar & logic stages, but it is far from perfect.

Beth, I'm totally tracking your vibe. :)

[kalanamak]

What about the Kingfisher Atlases?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=kingfisher+atlas&x=0&y=0

And has anyone mentioned:

http://www.amazon.com/History-World-Third-Revised-Updated/dp/0756631440/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228362313&sr=1-10

YIKES!

[TaraTheLiberator]

Susan, I don't know what books you are considering, but I would like to raise an issue that hasn't been discussed yet. Several people have mentioned books that have been criticized for being racist or bigoted and said that these books work for them because they discuss the issues with their kids. That's fine, and I respect that they feel comfortable handling the situation that way. However, I have kids who are racial minorities. I am Caucasian. There is no way that I would or could ever use as a spine a book that consistently degrades racial and ethnic minorities. Racism and prejudice were and still are a fact of life, and I definitely discuss these things with my kids, but the way I see it, my children's education should be a refuge from bigotry and prejudice, particularly since it is taking place in the (expected) comfort of our home. I will not use as the center of our studies a book that continues to remind my children of prejudice. My children should never have to endure that. I would encourage you (strongly) not to recommend those books.

Tara

[mommahawk]

Out of all the ones I've looked at and own, I too, prefer the DK: A Definitive Guide by far. (Except for the KF Illustrated History which I just snagged online a couple of days ago for $17.00 at Alibris, shipping included.) Many of the others are way too busy for me. I would really prefer paragraph form for that age instead of the little snippets you get in the other DK and Usborne. Usborne Internet-Linked is one that we're actually using in the grammar stage with our SOTW and TOG and I can't imagine it being meaty enough for a logic stage kiddo to outline out of. Although we aren't there yet, so maybe I'm wrong. My second choice would be the Oxford World History mentioned above. My concern with that was the same that others stated--it's only available in the newest edition in paperback form.

Peela,
The book that you mentioned sounds very interesting, but I couldn't find it on Amazon. They have Vol 3: Modern to Contemporary but it must be OOP as there were only used copies. Rats.

My meager $.02...

[training5]

Mommahawk, the books are here: http://k12.com/curriculum_and_products/history_main/k12_history_books/

HTH!

[mommahawk]

Mommahawk, the books are here: http://k12.com/curriculum_and_products/history_main/k12_history_books/

HTH!

Thanks! Although I wish they gave a little more description--like pictures for the visual folks! :)

[Peela]

Thanks! Although I wish they gave a little more description--like pictures for the visual folks! :)

Yeah...sorry about that :) but I can say there are lots and lots of pictures in the books- very visual.
I think they would be good for many people- they cover world history well, I love the covering of the religions- however I just doubt they are very accessible for most people, so wouldn't be suitable for TWTM. I think unless you can find one 2nd hand like I did, you would have to go through K12 and I am not sure how easy that is, just to buy a book. But hopefully it helps someone.

[Linda (Australia)]

...to tell me what YOU would pick for logic-stage history, given the chance to write TWTM yourself.

I can hardly believe this, but once again Kingfisher has let their history encyclopedia go out of print with absolutely no warning. As in: last week it was available, this week it isn't. And, of course, I had picked it once more for the history spine in the logic stage of TWTM. :banghead:

I have a couple of alternatives in mind, and three whole days to make the changes in the galleys, which are almost ready to go to the printer. But I thought I'd ask any of you who might be interested to weigh in with favorites.

SWB


Hi Susan - how frustrating! Oh, that they would warn us of these things! :glare:

For 5-8th grades, we've found Christine Millers (Guerber's) History books (Nothing New Press) excellent - similar to SOTW, but in more detail. There are also maps, etc. included. They're the best we've found for this age group.

But I also support the idea of Peace Hill Press buying the rights to the 1993 version of the Kingfisher book! We still use this as well.

Hope you find something suitable - we look forward to the new version of TWTM - is there a release date as yet?

God bless,

Linda.

[Eliana]

For an advanced reader, I like to use Spielvogel's Human Odyssey (http://www.amazon.com/World-History-Jackson-J-Spielvogel/dp/0538423293/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228373928&sr=8-1); for younger kids doing middle school work the Usborne set (available now as a single volume (http://www.amazon.com/Usborne-Internet-Linked-Encyclopedia-World-History/dp/0746041683/ref=ed_oe_h)) could work well... but when I look over the different resources we have and have used, I think the K12 Human Odyssey books are the best option for the average middle school student. [Vol 1: 1931728534, vol 2: 1931728569, vol 3: 1601530188] (And they can easily be ramped up with outside reading/research, or eased down by cutting back on outside reading and concentrating on the text.)

They are less dense (and thus a bit more superficial) than the Spielvogel, but have more information with a better narrative framework than either the Usbourne or the Kingfisher texts. I like the inclusion of primary source material (even if just small sections), and I like that it covers literary and cultural aspects of history in a meaningful, integrated way... and I appreciate the breadth of coverage. It weights Western history a bit more heavily than others, but I feel that it gives solid, accessible coverage to the rest of world history, and without making it feel tacked on.

[Note: The child of mine who used these combined them with a very heavy load of outside, supplemental reading - and a few Teaching Company lectures on tape. Although she was initially vaguely dissatisfied, once she found her pace and began selecting topics for outside reading (all on her own initiative), she became very fond of the texts.... and I modified my initial lukewarm reception as well! (I realized that most of that was coming from trying to use the actual K12 course with all its attendant busy work.)

The text has many fine qualities, but what won me over was watching my daughter's reactions to it. She came to me chortling over amusing ironies, indignant about injustices, or (most often) eager to get more information about a person, an event, or a period in history. The text gave her a great framework, but many solid texts can do that... this one inspired her and excited her... it helped her shift from history as story to history as a rich, complex, fascinating tapestry.... and to begin to see the interconnections amongst the stories she already knew, and to be hungry for more depth, more details. She read almost constantly - rereading younger books with fresh eyes, studying our reference books and middle grade resources, but also stretching, reading Montesquieu, Locke, Machiavelli, Confucius, and trying other things which were over her head. ]



The greatest downside is their price. They can be found used, but they can only be purchased new directly from K12. (Unlike all of their other materials, the history books can be purchased from them without subscribing to their online courses.) I think their list price is ~$75/each. Two volumes cover from ancient history through the first world war, a third volume covers modern history (and it covers WWI in more depth than volume two does.)



I think the Usborne books aren't middle school level at all - I used their earlier incarnation (Ancient World, Medieval World, etc) with an elementary student (before SOTW was , and felt it was just about right.

...but I might not be the best one to share an opinion! Although we have made heavy use of our Kingfisher text, we did not find it a satisfying focal text - it served as a splendid spine in many ways, but it was never inspiring. The daughter who used it did her assignments, learned a lot, chose outside reading when asked to... but it wasn't the right spine to be part of triggering the shift from elementary learning to logic stage history - in much the same way that the Usborne books, for all their interest, never made history vivid, real, or important, if that makes any sense. When we used those, we relied on all the other readings to connect with history.... but that put me in the center of it, I pulled all those together and, along with my own history stories, they worked, and worked well. ...but at the middle school level, I didn't belong in so central a role, and without the connection to the material that a stronger, more narrative text can give, there wasn't the drive to read more elsewhere. So, I went looking for other options.

Susan, if you don't have access to the K12 texts, I could lend you mine. (I could send someone to the post office tomorrow to overnight them to you.) I'm sorry this isn't more coherent - I'm exhausted and shouldn't be here - feel free to email me with any questions, I might not be back here again this week.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

This has been fascinating. Thanks for the glimpse into your homes--I'll post some more info here shortly.

Brief answers before I go back to work--

Bill, it doesn't look as though there's an updated version in the works. Kingfisher is still publishing a Concise Encyclopedia of World History which is shorter version of KHE, but the pub date on it is 2001, and I don't trust its availability.

Colleen--will do what I can about outlining, but the space limitations in TWTM are severe, given its length. I'm working on the second volume of the Complete Writer, though, I promise! There's not nearly enough out there for parents to use in teaching outlining.

Tara, I hear you. My younger sister is African American (adopted at 2 days old) and growing up with her (in the 1970s in southeastern Virginia, no less) has made me acutely aware of this.

And for everyone who suggested, my father also said, "Why don't we see if we can get the rights to the Kingfisher book?" We'll look into it, but as a company we're debt-free and this seems like a good time to remain that way.:001_smile:

SWB

[TaraTheLiberator]

Thank you, Susan.

Maybe you could solicit donations from Hive members and we could all help you buy the rights?

Tara

[Nan in Mass]

He did the old Kingfisher in the logic stage, outlining a spread most weeks. Then in high school, since he isn't the most academic-minded of people, I though perhaps Human Odyssey would be better for him than Western Civ, so he started on that. After a month or so, he switched to Western Civ. Here is his comparison of the two. Keep in mind that he wasn't doing Human Odyssey as a 5th grader, and he didn't get terribly far through the book.

He says that as far as he can remember, the reading level in HO is a little higher than Kingfisher, and that there are fewer pictures and far more words. He liked the amount of pictures in Kingfisher much more than the amount in HO. He says that he liked the condensed-ness of the Kingfisher text. He says he was learning very little from HO that he didn't already know from Kingfisher, and for the amount of text that he was having to wade through in HO, he thinks he would have learned more by just going back through Kingfisher again. In other words, there is more information per word in Kingfisher, so you get more information per time. I think this is probably an important point for middle schoolers and others who read slowly. A fast reader is better off with more text that contains more storyline and more interesting details, but a slower reader is better off with a more condensed text and the details and other bits that make the subject come alive in the pictures. I've known for 7 1/2 years now that a major reason TWTM worked so well for us is that the recommended texts for elementary school and high school are HEAVILY ILLUSTRATED. Either that, or they are in story form.

PS - He likes Speilvogel's Western Civ very much. He says it is interesting and it is just the right level to follow Kingfisher; he is learning enough new material to make it worth reading. It contains the right amount of reading, spread over four years, and he doesn't feel like he is spending too much of his time reading history rather than reading great books. The bits I myself read seemed like good background material for great books (the main reason we study history). It has illustrations of things refered to in our great books reading, bits of primary sources like poetry, and lots of maps. I know you didn't ask how Western Civ was working out, but thought the info might give you some idea of what sort of person my son is, so you know how much attention to pay to his comparison.

HTH, and hope you see this. I should have asked him yesterday.
-Nan

[Lori in MS]

I also like Christine Miller's Guerber books.

[strider]

Several people have suggested re-using SOTW in the logic stage. While I am sure that has worked well for those who made that suggestion, it would not work for our family. While my dd really loves SOTW and always has, as a 6th grader her reading ability and reading comprehension level is really solid. The pace of SOTW1 would be waaaaaay too slow for her and does not offer nearly enough detail to satisfy her. I have used SOTW effectively to teach basic outlining and summary skills, but personally think that one year of doing that with a simpler text like SOTW is plenty of training for more advanced work in a denser text. While I think SOTW is the very best, richest, and most delightful text available for grammar stage learners, I would not recommend it for middle schoolers. JMHO--hope it helps.

[Nan in Mass]

That is a good idea!

[Tammyla]

We still use our KFHE, my best $10.00 used book sale to date. That one is a keeper. ;) The Usborne World History was received well by my ds, but my dd never liked the style.

[Rhondabee]

But, what if for outlining you suggested using something like The World Book Encyclopedia on CD (mine was less than $10 - but, it might have been used). Then, the Usborne Encyclopedia of World History (the internet linked one), which doesn't have long enough paragraphs for 3-point outlines, could be just the spine - suggesting names, places, events to look up in the World Book, as well as dates for timeline and some maps.

ETA: Of course, you could always outline from "other books", too. Just, it is sometimes nice to know I *have* a good source *at home* that doesn't rely on the library and a plethora of books.

I have used SOTW for my oldest in logic stage, but as my younger ds approaches Ancients in 6th grade, I'm leery of re-doing it for some reason. I think because I really appreciated your comments in Atlanta about delving into what the student finds interesting, and emphasizing primary sources. That just did not get done nearly to the extent I would have liked using SOTW in logic stage. Basically, I always feel under the gun time-wise trying to do SOTW and Kingfisher (IHOW) and so other stuff gets spread out few and far between. I am excited about trying to give my student some of that lee-way next year, but it will only happen if we leave SOTW.

(tho' the advantage of using SOTW as a "first time through history" has been that we loved the stories, and we retained them! I certainly don't regret using it.)

Thanks Susan for all you do! It is hard to get used to that "free-falling" feeling that comes from not using a textbook, but I'm so glad we found WTM.

[Rhondabee]

Peela,

Is that the same as Spielvogel's "World History: The Human Odyssey"?

Thanks!

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen--will do what I can about outlining, but the space limitations in TWTM are severe, given its length. I'm working on the second volume of the Complete Writer, though, I promise! There's not nearly enough out there for parents to use in teaching outlining.

I understand. I'm sure anything you revamp in WTM about outlining will be helpful, though. As well as these boards - people here have been so helpful in the whole writing realm. I greatly look forward to your second writing book because your way of teaching it makes plain sense to me! :)

as a company we're debt-free

Completely OT now, but I'm really impressed by this! Dh runs his business debt-free, too.

[HollyinNNV]

I would use something free from the internet to demonstrate outlining (Van Loon?). Of course, use a chapter that is appropriate and slur-free.:) Then suggest 2-3 books that people can pick from to use all year long. They could be tiered in terms of difficulty.

New to homeschooling, less background in history, choose A.
Modest history background, choose B.
History buff, choose C.

You would be assured of never having to do the work of demonstrating outlining again as the online resource would not go out of print.

[Laurel-in-CA]

Dislike Van Loon - pretty negative about christianity, altho' I like his illustrations & story-telling style.
Like Child's History of the World (revised version) but it tends to be a little patronizing for older kids.
Like the look of the suggested DK book.
Have really enjoyed Picturesque Tale of Progress...but that's out of print, starts with Ug the Caveman (pretty funny) and ends in 1934...has wonderful illustrations and retellings of epics and a pretty positive but secular take on religion in general. Wordy, though, and high vocabulary. We've used it as a read-aloud. Revising and extending it would be a "fun project" eh?

Still like my KIHOW and dislike Usborne's IHOW. I've used Usborne's Medieval World and Ancient World and think it's more appropriate for elementaries...gives them a visual to go with SOTW. Usborne has Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece, and Ancient Rome. I think these are spot on for logic stage...but there are three of them (hardback) and then you don't have coverage of the rest of the world...missing a lot there.

No good solution (sigh).
If you suggest the World Book, they'll definitely develop research skills and all, but may be bored out of their gourds, too (bad experience with Sonlight's Eastern Hemisphere Explorer here)....and it repeats a lot of what's in Tapestry of Grace, reinventing the wheel so to speak.

[training5]

I will donate to a buy the rights fund...
Will you change the format?

[Cadam]

I will donate to a buy the rights fund...
Will you change the format?

me too.

[Peela]

Peela,

Is that the same as Spielvogel's "World History: The Human Odyssey"?

Thanks!

No, it isnt. And that's why I ended up with the wrong book- I thought i was getting the Spielvogel book. But I was happy with what I got.

[Heather in VA]

What about the National Geographic Visual History of the World? I haven't looked closely at it but my mom got it on a good sale and I'm getting it for Christmas :-). The samples I've seen look very nice.

Heather

[angela&4boys]

What about the National Geographic Visual History of the World? I haven't looked closely at it but my mom got it on a good sale and I'm getting it for Christmas :-). The samples I've seen look very nice.

This looks *very* nice and affordable. It also looks a bit more meaty in comparison to my initial UILEWH vote.

Is there a site where you can read the text? I can only see it faintly at the National Geographic site.

[Beth in SW WA]

While I think SOTW is the very best, richest, and most delightful text available for grammar stage learners, I would not recommend it for middle schoolers. JMHO--hope it helps.

Dc 6th & 8th are using SOTW 2,3 & 4 during Fall/Winter as our history spine. They will read Hakim's History Of US in the spring. SOTW has plenty of detail, especially at the pace dc are reading them. We add some reference material from KF & Usborne & a few Netflix docs/movies. Its a nice logic stage history program. They love it.

I own Spielvogel's Human Odyssey and plan to use it next year w/ another hybrid history/lit program consisting of HO, SWB's HOAW, Omnibus 1 selections and Drew/Plaid Dad's new Iliad study guide.

For now, SOTW is doing the trick...well :)

[mommahawk]

The National Geographic Visual History does look fascinating. I like the price ($23.10 on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/National-Geographic-Visual-History-World/dp/0792236955/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228442641&sr=1-1)) and it has 656 pages! I wish you could 'see inside' it, but from the description it doesn't sound like the pages would be overly "busy," which for me, is good. It's just hard to know how the text reads without having it in your hands.

[strider]

Dc 6th & 8th are using SOTW 2,3 & 4 during Fall/Winter as our history spine. They will read Hakim's History Of US in the spring. SOTW has plenty of detail, especially at the pace dc are reading them. We add some reference material from KF & Usborne & a few Netflix docs/movies. Its a nice logic stage history program. They love it.

I own Spielvogel's Human Odyssey and plan to use it next year w/ another hybrid history/lit program consisting of HO, SWB's HOAW, Omnibus 1 selections and Drew/Plaid Dad's new Iliad study guide.

For now, SOTW is doing the trick...well :)

I hope I did not offend you with my thoughts. I specifically wrote in my post that SOTW would not work for my family at the logic stage. Because of my personal experience with my family it's not something I would recommend for others at the logic stage. However, the beauty of homeschooling is that we can tailor the curriculum to our own children, and I am glad that your experience, though different from mine, is working well for you. I did not mean in any way to slight your choice or others, but simply to provide another perspective for SWB to consider as she evaluates the resources that are available.

[Alte Veste Academy]

The National Geographic Visual History does look fascinating. I like the price ($23.10 on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/National-Geographic-Visual-History-World/dp/0792236955/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228442641&sr=1-1)) and it has 656 pages! I wish you could 'see inside' it, but from the description it doesn't sound like the pages would be overly "busy," which for me, is good. It's just hard to know how the text reads without having it in your hands.

I own this one. It is beautifully illustrated and has reasonable flow to the text. However, I've looked at samples of the Kingfisher text and this is a pretty big leap from that. It is, after all, an adult book. It is very good but the writing might be a bit much for the average middle school child. Considering that some people consider SOTW appropriate for the middle grades, it is hard to imagine this being appropriate. It would definitely be on the other end of the level of difficulty spectrum. Take my opinion with a grain of salt, however. My oldest is in Kindergarten this year!

After stating in a previous post that I thought the Oxford Children's History of the World would be a good choice, someone pointed out the enormous page difference between it and Kingfisher (192 vs. 491), so I don't know if there is enough meat in Oxford to do the job. It does seem to be the language/illustration level equivalent, however. The Usborne history that has been suggested would be a tough sell because it's choppy, slightly better than DK's choppy but still choppy.

I do agree that the having the outlining procedure spelled out in the next volume of The Complete Writer (and also in the new WTM?) will be immensely helpful. It would also put many of us at ease about picking the text from which our children develop this skill.

Kristina

[inashoe]

The National Geographic Visual History does look fascinating. I like the price ($23.10 on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/National-Geographic-Visual-History-World/dp/0792236955/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228442641&sr=1-1)) and it has 656 pages! I wish you could 'see inside' it, but from the description it doesn't sound like the pages would be overly "busy," which for me, is good. It's just hard to know how the text reads without having it in your hands.

Can someone who has a copy of the National Geographic Visual History confirm the number of pages.
Amazon states 656 pages,
but the National Geographic website states 256 pages.

http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/product/crossell/2706.html#




Thanks.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Can someone who has a copy of the National Geographic Visual History confirm the number of pages.
Amazon states 656 pages,
but the National Geographic website states 256 pages.

http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/product/crossell/2706.html#




Thanks.

It must be a typo on the NG site because 656 is accurate. It's a big book!

Kristina

[Jenny in Florida]

I own this one. It is beautifully illustrated and has reasonable flow to the text. However, I've looked at samples of the Kingfisher text and this is a pretty big leap from that. It is, after all, an adult book. It is very good but the writing might be a bit much for the average middle school child.

Agreed. My daughter used the National Geographic book as a spine for high school.

My 10-year-old son is using the Parragon Atlas of World History as his spine for this cycle. It's working very well for him.

[funschooler5]

After stating in a previous post that I thought the Oxford Children's History of the World would be a good choice, someone pointed out the enormous page difference between it and Kingfisher (192 vs. 491), so I don't know if there is enough meat in Oxford to do the job. It does seem to be the language/illustration level equivalent, however. The Usborne history that has been suggested would be a tough sell because it's choppy, slightly better than DK's choppy but still choppy.


I bought Oxford Children's History of the World a few years ago and ended up ebaying it because there were a few things I tried to look up that weren't in there (I can't remember what we were searching for). It might make a nice spine along with another book...sometimes one will have some information another book doesn't.

[training5]

How about Ancient History from Primary Sources: A Literary Timeline by the Bluedorns?

[Paula in PA]

How about Ancient History from Primary Sources: A Literary Timeline by the Bluedorns?

This would not work for a secular homeschooler.

[mommahawk]

I own this one. It is beautifully illustrated and has reasonable flow to the text. However, I've looked at samples of the Kingfisher text and this is a pretty big leap from that. It is, after all, an adult book. It is very good but the writing might be a bit much for the average middle school child. Considering that some people consider SOTW appropriate for the middle grades, it is hard to imagine this being appropriate. It would definitely be on the other end of the level of difficulty spectrum. Take my opinion with a grain of salt, however. My oldest is in Kindergarten this year!


Kristina

Thanks you for posting. It's good to hear from someone who actually owns the book! :)

[Beth in SW WA]

I hope I did not offend you with my thoughts. I specifically wrote in my post that SOTW would not work for my family at the logic stage. Because of my personal experience with my family it's not something I would recommend for others at the logic stage. However, the beauty of homeschooling is that we can tailor the curriculum to our own children, and I am glad that your experience, though different from mine, is working well for you. I did not mean in any way to slight your choice or others, but simply to provide another perspective for SWB to consider as she evaluates the resources that are available.

No offense at all. Just clarifying. :)
Have a super Friday!

[momto2Cs]

...to tell me what YOU would pick for logic-stage history, given the chance to write TWTM yourself.

I can hardly believe this, but once again Kingfisher has let their history encyclopedia go out of print with absolutely no warning. As in: last week it was available, this week it isn't. And, of course, I had picked it once more for the history spine in the logic stage of TWTM. :banghead:

I have a couple of alternatives in mind, and three whole days to make the changes in the galleys, which are almost ready to go to the printer. But I thought I'd ask any of you who might be interested to weigh in with favorites.

SWB

You can still buy it for $30 from the publishers...

http://us.macmillan.com/Retailer.aspx?isbn=9780753457849

[Jen the RD]

After 105 posts, I'm not sure who's still looking at this thread, but I'll post anyway because I haven't seen anyone list this resource. I found this three years ago at Marshall's for $6 and it has been a terrific resource and jumping off point for deepening our knowledge in certain era's of history. I have used it for grades 3,4,and now 5 as a read aloud. However, I am transitioning my 5th grade dd into reading it and either doing a narration or outline and it's working very well. IMHO, it is well written to accomodate kids through logic stage. Most topics have a 2 pg spread written in paragraphs with pictures, maps, and illustrations. The timeline is placed on the lower edge of the page and I found it to be accurate with other sources such as World Book. An additional timeline in the appendix summarizes events by politics, religion, arts, technology, exploration, and daily life. Also in the appendix are lists of important battles in history, Chinese dynasties, Roman & Byzantine emperors, prime ministers of England, Canada, and Australia as well as political leaders for many other countries. The publication date for this book is 2003, so I don't know if that's a drawback in terms of going out of print. I do know it's available new at amazon.com for around $20.

BTW, there are 112 topics covered among the 5 eras of history covered: Ancient World, Middle Ages, Age of Discovery, Revolution and Industry, The Modern World.

God bless to all,
Jennifer

DD 5th gr
DS 1st gr

[angela&4boys]

After 105 posts, I'm not sure who's still looking at this thread, but I'll post anyway because I haven't seen anyone list this resource.

I, for one, am definitely still looking! I'm curious what SWB's decision will be. :bigear:

Would you mind sharing the amazon link and/or ISBN?

[tuckabella]

Would you mind sharing the amazon link and/or ISBN?
I searched Amazon, and here is what I believe she might be talking about due to title, date of publishing and publisher:
http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-World-History-Childrens-Reference/dp/1405417021/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228524280&sr=8-9

[runningirl71]

I searched Amazon, and here is what I believe she might be talking about due to title, date of publishing and publisher:
http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-World-History-Childrens-Reference/dp/1405417021/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228524280&sr=8-9

This does look like a good choice! I've been reading this thread quite closely as we'll be starting back to ancients next year. I do own KHE and I'm happy to use it, but like others have stated, The paragraphs are more like snippets. I do like the layout and don't think it is too "busy" compared to the Usborne one. I really don't think this is a problem in the 5th and 6th grade years, but becomes more of a problem when outlines get more detailed in 7th and 8th grade. :)

[melissaL]

I, for one, am definitely still looking! I'm curious what SWB's decision will be. :bigear:

?

me too.:bigear:

[Jen the RD]

Here is the link and the isbn# for Encyclopedia of World History by Parragon Publishing.

http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-World-History-Childrens-Reference/dp/1405417021/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228594949&sr=8-10

Product Details


Hardcover: 256 pages
Publisher: Parragon Publishing (June 1, 2003)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 1405417021
ISBN-13: 978-1405417020
Product Dimensions: 10.7 x 8.5 x 1 inches
HTH. If you all have any other questions, please let me know. I only wish I could find a link with a "peek" inside.

Jennifer

[nmoira]

Here is the link and the isbn# for Encyclopedia of World History by Parragon Publishing.It appears to be no longer available; neither Amazon nor B&N carries it.

[Jen the RD]

It appears to be no longer available; neither Amazon nor B&N carries it.

That's a disappointment. I just went back to the link and realized that. Sorry ladies. I guess the search continues.......

Jennifer

[runningirl71]

That's a disappointment. I just went back to the link and realized that. Sorry ladies. I guess the search continues.......

Jennifer

Maybe it will come available again. I clicked on your link at one point and it WAS available. And, a few days ago I had been looking up this book on Amazon recommended by someone else and it was there. I even put it on my wish list. Now it says "unavailable" on my wish list too. :tongue_smilie:

[sagira]

My vote is still with this one (http://www.amazon.com/History-Definitive-Visual-Civilization-Present/dp/075663119X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228673441&sr=8-1). I do like the Parragon Publishing too, wish it were more widely available.

I'm so curious on what you decide too, SWB :lurk5:

[dirty ethel rackham]

I like the way this looks, but I hate that it is only available new in softcover.

Hijack here. It is now available in hard cover (at least from a consultant). I think it came be in stock in the past couple weeks. I prefer the library binding because it stands better to years of use.

[frogpond1]

There are some beautiful books by Guerber or Synche, H. E. Marshall etc. Then parents could purchase them, or just print them out or PHP could print their own versions. http://www.mainlesson.com/displaybooksbygenre.php

[EKS]

I would pick The Human Odyssey series that is produced by K12. It is a truly excellent, coherent narrative. I know it is expensive for the 3 volumes, but I have never seen anything better out there for the middle grades.

[HappyGrace]

In a nutshell:

1. LOVE SOTW for elementary and could conceivably be used for 5th, but that's the limit.

2. Usborne-I strongly feel it's only good for elementary-WAY too basic for older. Even my elementary student was looking for more than they had. The Internet linked would help with this, but you really want the bulk of it IN the book. Also it's horrible for outlining.

3. My two top choices would be the DK History: Definitive Guide or the Guerber books. The DK paragraphs are conducive to outlining; also not too busy and meaty enough. Guerber is appropriate for logic age, and also lends itself well to outlining. Both choices for the most part look like they would appeal to secular or non-secular points of views.They are also in the price range that would be appropriate for most homeschooling families, which is a really important consideration. Others that have been mentioned on here that are good, but expensive, may be out of reach for many of Susan's readers.

Maybe this setback will end up in improvements in the end. I never thought the Kingfisher was good for outlining, although I realize it covered the relevant time periods well. Can't wait to see the new TWTM!

[runningirl71]

I would pick The Human Odyssey series that is produced by K12. It is a truly excellent, coherent narrative. I know it is expensive for the 3 volumes, but I have never seen anything better out there for the middle grades.

I just picked up a copy of this on Alibris for $14.38 (that's including shipping) for the first volume. :)

[lwilliams1922]

Susan,
I'm not sure if you posted your selections in another thread or not but I'd love to see.

I purcahsed the old king fisher for my 8th grader this fall.
It looks nice but I thought it was not deep enough. I ended up getting streams of civ but for some reason didn't stay with it. I also purcahsed SOTW.

DD is an advanced reader but we just liked the story format. She also stopped complaing about outlining once we used it! It may be for youger kids but it served its purpose.

I'm planning to add Human odyssey and time lines of history this semester to start the tranisition to rhetoric.

[Laura Corin]

Something like: Gombrich or Van Loon as background text for continuity, plus Suzanne Strauss Art books (the student to choose the civilisations s/he is interested in) for depth.

Laura

[sewpeaceful]

I would go with Oxfords Childrens History of the World by Neil Grant (http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Childrens-History-World-Grant/dp/0199115745/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_a), thats what we use. Its a combniation of Usborne/Kingfisher style. My dd has been outling this even though we use TOG. I own the Kingfisher(red cover) but I never felt like it was "outline friendly" for a logic stage child. Instead I have her outline the corrosponding chapters to the Oxford text. It is secular, I just skipped the first two chapters. It's under $20 and it's great!

ETA: The Oxfords Childrens Book of Science is also really good

I like this one! Thank you for the recommendation!

[Mommyfaithe]

How about the H.E. Marshall books? or M.B. Synge?
We have Streams but we'll be reading the Marshall and Synge books the most as a spine.

I know it'd be more expensive but what about Eyewitness Books on topics? I like DK History: The Definitive Visual Guide, I actually sold our Kingfisher (Mandela cover) b/c I wasn't thrilled with it overall.

Synge and Marshall and Guerber are all narratives. I think they are fine to read as a narrative...but do not take the place of an encyclopedia for outlining and a "just the facts" approach.

I think the Usbourne Internet linked Encyclopedia would work...or maybe DK has one . The idea is to have an encyclopedia that is chronological and not too difficult for a fifth grader or too easy for an eighth grader.