Logic Stage History Fog

[training5]

OK, I have spent the last 2 days pouring over every Logic stage history post I found by searching. I am now SO confused that I want to skip history for life.

I like how Hist. Ody. schedules for me, but it looks boring without a nice SOTW type spine. It feels backwards to go to KF first and then to Van Loon's book every so often. I want it the other way round. I like how it has books scheduled for me and available for purchase. I was having an impossible time trying to choose from the WTM selections. BUT it gets to be expensive if you don't have a good library system to use.(which we don't). I like how maps are straight forward in that it tells you which one to use when. I really loathe the idea of doing a timeline. I much rather have a preprinted book. BUT I can also relate to Sue in St Pete's thread. It is a lot of money to have it flop.

I don't understand outlining from KF after having looked through our 2004 copy. It doesn't seem to lend itself to that sort of organizing. Frankly, I just don't see the point of outlining something anyway. Narrations, I see the purpose. Notetaking, I understand. I suppose notetaking is just an unorganized outline?

Anyone have any encouragement?

[Colleen in NS]

OK, I have spent the last 2 days pouring over every Logic stage history post I found by searching. I am now SO confused that I want to skip history for life.

Anyone have any encouragement?

There seem to be a ton of logic stage history posts lately, eh? :D I'm only just now getting a grip on it for our family!

The way I see it (and I'm going by what I think is the heart of WTM) is, dc does a lot of reading, and practices writing from some of this reading:

- read through a chronological section of history each year, using a spine you like. Supplement this spine with lots of extra interesting reading for dc to do.

- practice outlining skills on SOMETHING from the history reading (spine or supplements, whichever seems to lend itself to it). Outlining helps in learning the art of writing from a good writer, and in the process, you examine and learn history a little more closely than just reading it. I think notetaking is unorganized outlining, yes. But organizing the info. helps you think through it a little more clearly, and see the bones of the writing.

- put any dates you come across in your reading, on some kind of blank timeline. Talk about the connections you see on the timeline. "Look, such and such was happening in this part of the world, while so and so was happening over here in this part of the world!"

- colour and label some historical maps if you want. Talk about the differences between then and now.

- Have dc read some more. Have dc write a narration about something interesting from this reading.

But first, go have a nap and let all the info. that confused you settle down. :D

[inashoe]

There are a lot of us struggling with Logic Stage History. I think we all wish we had a nicely laid out spine, like we had in grammar stage.

In grammar stage the kids do mapwork - the purpose is to know WHERE the country is that we are learning about. While we covered history chronologically I never expected them to remember or get a picture of WHEN events took place.

In logic stage they know where the countries are, or at least most of them, and certainly more than had they gone to PS. Now they start to form a picture of WHEN events took place. Making a timeline from scratch is helpful for that purpose.

The purpose of outlining is for the student to learn how to make notes from which they can study (prep for college) and notes from which they can then write a report.

Fifth grade outlining is only one level outlining. Sixth grade is two level outlining, and seventh is three level outlining.

For fifth grade the student needs to find 3 to 5 main points - number them with Roman Numerals, and that is the outline. See the example in WTM on The Phoenicians. I am working with KF for now - though it is not ideal.

The student may need some guidance as to what is supporting detail and what is the main idea - but this is exactly the skill that a well educated student does need to develop.

[Shelly in IL]

"la la la" with fingers in ears and covering eyes.

[training5]

Try trying to do it secular. I have to say it is worse. lol

[amyco71]

I'm struggling with logic stage history for my 5th grader too. We are in Ancients again this year. I thought I was doing so well last year, researching several textbook/spine like things, as KF doesn't really appeal to me. I find the pages too busy. I ended up purchasing several of Suzanne Art's books, and then the Oxford First Ancient History, and then invested in the entire World in Ancient Times (http://www.amazon.com/World-Ancient-Times-Set/dp/0195222423/ref=pd_sim_b_2) set. I didn't really have a plan for any of these, and in the end I purchased KF too, so my daughter could practice the outlining. Outlining with these other sources seemed impossible--just too much information.

My understanding of outlining at this point is to write one sentence per paragraph of the KF topic of the day. My daughter has always done well with narration and is having an okay time with outlining like this. We also use R&S Grammar and it is introducing outlining in a nice gentle manner.

I've come to the conclusion, after reading some other threads here, that the important part is for her to learn the outlining skills, the map skills, and the timeline skills. (She looks things up on the map/atlas and fills in a homemade timeline.) So while the information isn't as dense as the SOTW books, she is learning the skills. Content can always come later.

I admit, I am not doing very well at corresponding literature suggestions...not a whole ton of choices. Next semester when we get to Greece and Rome, I expect it to pick up nicely. For some of these I'm going back to the SOTW Activity Guide and choosing some of the "harder" books. Also I have had difficulty finding passages for her dictation. Currently I am using Archimedes and the Door of Science, and picking random things from The Harp and Laurel Wreath.

At the end of the day, I'm at peace with our program as it is now. I'd like her to do more reading, but that's my fault. I really should have her reading more of those other texts I got...but after a while how much can you read about Stonehenge or Akkadia when there just isn't that much different written about it?

As for next year, the World in Medieval Times (http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Early-Modern-World-Seven/dp/0195221575/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3LGZEKXL4THU9&colid=MGYGYY3CAK1U) set looks great...but I should probably be realistic, and know it's going to be the same as it is this year, outlining the KF sections.

[matroyshka]

I ended up purchasing several of Suzanne Art's books, and then the Oxford First Ancient History, and then invested in the entire World in Ancient Times (http://www.amazon.com/World-Ancient-Times-Set/dp/0195222423/ref=pd_sim_b_2) set.

Oh, heavens. I have book envy.

Could you share which of these series you ended up liking the best (and why)? I'm going to be starting Ancients with two 6th graders (and a 4th grader in tow) next year and have been wrestling with what to get for quite a while. A Kingfisher type spine doesn't appeal to me at all - I want something more narrative, like the others you picked. But which ones? My ILL doesn't even have the Suzanne Art books for me to review - I'd love to hear the opinion of someone who has all these to compare! :001_smile:

[Beth in SW WA]

I don't understand the angst expressed here. We have a plethora of great choices for logic stage history.

For dc 6th & 8th this year we are doing this:

SOTW 2,3,4 as our "spine" -- read only, no AG or tests
KF readings
TWTM logic stage lit selections to match history readings (not all, of course)
Netflix documentaries & movies

We're having a ball. The kids love history ala TWTM.

We don't do outlining or time lines. Just read, discuss, repeat :)

[training5]

Now I can do Beth's plan. I just feel like they will miss something if I don't follow The Way, KWIM?

[Beth in SW WA]

Now I can do Beth's plan. I just feel like they will miss something if I don't follow The Way, KWIM?

:iagree: & I absolutely know what you mean. :)

The Way is tempting, don't get me wrong.

History should be fun, eye-opening & thrilling for our children. SWB has made it easy for us. I found no need to reinvent the wheel. I just made a few modifications to her wheel.

[amyco71]

Matroyshka--Here are my thoughts. Originally I liked the Oxford First Ancient History best. It is complete in itself, unlike the Suzanne Art books. It is definitely British in its spelling. It also utilizes things like "interviews" with characters/people who lived at the time. It is definitely lively and not boring while including lots of information. The interview thing began to get to me, as well as the use of some cartoon-y things.

Suzanne Art's books are very plain and simple, which also appealed to me. No color pictures, all in paperback. I think this would be the easiest of the lot to outline for beginners. Also there are discussion questions at the end of each section, which I liked. These were originally written for classroom use. I have a feeling they might seem boring to some children. The publication quality is not as high as the other sets.

Then there's the World in Ancient Times set. I decided to purchase the entire set even though we're only going to use 4 or 5 of them. These are pretty new, and are glossy, well produced, lots of color pictures, etc. The tone of them can sometimes be what I'd describe as trying to be pals with the middle schooler...now and then a jest or joke, very mild and gentle, not inappropriate, but not completely "scholarly" either. But they definitely include tons of information. My daughter enjoyed the parts she has read. The best part of this series is that it includes a volume of primary sources material. My original idea was to give dictations from this, but it hasn't worked out--too many difficult to spell names and such. This is my favorite set if I had to choose just one (followed by the Oxford First Ancient History). I just checked the amazon price and it is almost double what I paid for it earlier this year--crazy! The reviews/descriptions listed on amazon are accurate. After thinking about it, I'm glad I bought them. I hope you are able to find one at a library to preview, that's what I did. It's a lot to invest without seeing one first.

Hope that helps!

[matroyshka]

Hope that helps!

Thanks, yes, that helps a lot! I kept reading the Suzanne Art reviews at Amazon and they range between "great!" and "boring!" - who to believe? I'm going to see if I can get copies of the other series from the library - I think I had heard about them a while back but totally forgotten them.

ETA: Oops, two questions -what books are included in that set? Amazon doesn't specify, and the picture is too fuzzy for my aging eyes to read the spines. And it looks like there are student study guides for the books - you wouldn't happen to have seen them or have an idea of their usefulness??

[Amber in AUS]

Beth, glad to see i am not the only one who thinks like this. I had these exact thoughts about how i would progress with my kids and history when they are older.

[Colleen in NS]

I don't understand the angst expressed here.

My angst about it all came from the writing portion of history study, until I concluded the same thing is this:

I've come to the conclusion, after reading some other threads here, that the important part is for her to learn the outlining skills, the map skills, and the timeline skills......Content can always come later.

[Jenny in Florida]

My son is 10, and we're doing ancient history this year.

His "spine" is the Atlas of World History from Parragon. I bought it for 9.98 on a bargain table a couple of years ago. He reads a couple of pages a week from this.

Alongside the atlas, he reads articles from Learning Through History magazine and a story or two per week from the Child's History of the World CD, plus chunks of whatever other history-related stuff I have on the shelf. For example, I have a bunch of National Geographic magazines, and he's read some articles from those. I have a variety of books I've picked up from bargain tables over the years about various ancient civilizations, and he's reading those.

We have a timeline, but we're not using it very much. I scanned and miniaturized the covers of all the books he's reading for "literature" this year that correspond to his history studies, and he puts those on the timeline. Every couple of weeks, he gets excited about some fact from his reading and wants to put that on the timeline, too.

For "output," I collected some kind of worksheet for every week of our school year. These include History Scribe pages, word searches and fill-in-the-blanks I made with free online tools, things I've copied or adapted from Learning Through History and other things I have on the shelf . . . Whatever I could find.

We're not outlining. I'd like to and I see the point, but it's just too big a battle for this one. So, mostly, he reads and we discuss. Toss in the weekly worksheets and some field trips and Netflix DVDs, and that's the whole plan.

[angela&4boys]

History should be fun, eye-opening & thrilling for our children. SWB has made it easy for us. I found no need to reinvent the wheel. I just made a few modifications to her wheel.

Ahhh... perspective I needed.

No real words of wisdom here, but rather a "thank you" for the thoughts shared in this thread.

My 11yo 5th grader loves history thanks to SOTW and the Biblioplan literature suggestions. He makes connections to our Bible studies, is gaining so much knowledge from his readings, and enjoys the timeline and mapping activities. His written narrations are not long, but thorough, and we're just now embarking on outlining and the like.

*I* need to remember that our rich discussions (He loves to ask questions and talk.) will lend themselves to writing in the future and not feel so hard-pressed to keep up with the Jones's. It's so important not to squelch the joy! :)