Talk me off the ledge, TOG people... [Archive] - The Well-Trained Mind Forums (aka Hive Mind)

View Full Version : Talk me off the ledge, TOG people...

Shelly in IL

12-01-2008, 04:52 PM

Karenciavo

12-01-2008, 05:37 PM

TOG isn't a fit for everyone, only you can tell if it's right for you. Truthfully, I have no idea what their cancellation policy is now. What level is your 7th grader completing, dialectic? I'm guessing you won't be using Omnibus (or will you?) If you don't use Omnibus what will Veritas history look like for a 7th grader? What I'm getting at is won't you still have to make time for discussions? Before ditching TOG why don't you do a week or two of history with him and see why he can't get the answers?

Heather in VA

12-01-2008, 05:43 PM

I'd try another couple of weeks and really focus on getting the discussions in as well. Not because I think you should use TOG or not, but because he is entering the academic level where those kinds of discussions are necessary regardless of the curriculum. VP is great, but the cards and associated curriculum is a grammar stage curriculum. Their logic/rhetoric stage (Omnibus) requires discussion as well, as do most programs for that level.

Now, if you think it's TOG itself that is causing the discussions not to happen, then by all means try something else, but if it's just that you haven't adjusted your schooling to take into account the fact that at his level he needs the discussions - then try TOG again with that focus.

Heather

ruth

12-01-2008, 05:51 PM

If you don't like the program, your dc aren't learning the way they use to, and it only costs $25 to cancel your order, then it sounds like you are ready to jump ship. (it's ok to jump ship, just remember you're just going into another ship, no big deal:D)

I too am a year 3 TOG user who is also considering going back to my old ship, for different reasons than yours. Its been a great learning experience for us but not the best fit.

herbalgirl

12-01-2008, 05:56 PM

You are right, it is a $25 cancellation fee. I don't know if it is per year ( I preordered YR2 and YR3!)...

I am also waivering...

Janice in NJ

12-01-2008, 06:51 PM

I'm going to agree with Karen on this one. :001_smile:

I had Omnibus I. I didn't use it like Karen did (I believe she used the lit for year 1 with TOG history, etc) but it didn't hold my hand for the discussions as much as TOG does. Plus TOG has the pop quiz summary, evaluations, etc. - lots of prep work done for me. But yes, I do have to prep a bit in order to lead the discussions. If you will take the time to work through the teacher's materials and prepare to discuss the material with your son, I think that you might hit a groove with TOG. Omnibus didn't give me nearly enough of the history background in order to lead the kind of discussion that I wanted to lead - even at the 7th grade level. YMMV. :001_smile:

I believe that Omnibus is designed for daily face-time with the student. So I agree with Karen; it will probably require more of you, not less. But this model isn't the only model for hsing. If you really don't have the time to prep for weekly face time with TOG, you might want to look into another program - maybe a DVD based program (BJU?) or Sonlight or another textbook program. You'll still have to be in the loop - to keep track of assignments, grade things, etc. But you won't have to teach via the Socratic method as much.

Other than that - I've got no advice. :001_smile: If they was a way to do this classical thing without being STRONGLY in the loop, I think we gals would have figured it out by now. If someone has, my hat is off to them! My gang requires my regular participation; otherwise things grind to an abrupt halt around here. :001_smile: It's a ton of work. Really! I'm totally sympathetic on that one! But if it's any consolation, it's worth it. Big time! Really!

Peace to you and yours!
Janice

Enjoy your little people
Enjoy your journey

3Rivers

12-01-2008, 07:21 PM

I'm going to be bold here and make a suggestion even though I haven't used TOG. We have been doing Sonlight, which also recommends the discussion aspect and face to face. I'm jumping in because I really understand the difficulty in finding and making the time to do this aspect of teaching. I find it much easier to manage our homeschool, or even teach the basics than to really get in there with a Socratic method of learning, which requires a completely different mental framework.

I'll pass on an idea I've had that I'm anxious to try myself when we get back to school after the holidays. I'm going to try to set aside at least ONE segment in the week for discussion and make it a special time with this older child of mine that is growing up entirely too fast. It will probably involve a hot beverage and maybe even a sweet treat for both of us as we chew on these matters and solve the world's problems. LOL It's more than school; it's really preparation for life and how to think and encouragement to really consider issues that affect what kind of adult she/he becomes.
Sometimes...we might even make it an evening and have our discussion at Starbucks or somewhere else. My point is to make it an event. It's a new phase that may take an adjustment in the way you do or look at homeschooling as your son is getting older. That's just a perspective from someone who has still only considered TOG at this point. But in case it is not truly a curriculum issue, but a "need to wrap your brain around a new frame for schoolwork" issue, I thought I'd chime in.

As to not knowing the answers, there could be a lot of things going on there. Since he is at the age where just learning facts maybe isn't that interesting for its own sake, it could be that discussion where he works out the "what does it matter" issues is what will help it to stick. I've noticed that with my DD. If she can make the connection to something that she cares about, it has a meaningful context for her and she remembers things better.

Jamie

Karen in CO

12-01-2008, 08:25 PM

You know, I've wanted to love ToG. I really have, but somehow, it just seems like history isn't getting done. My 7th grader does all the required reading, but we are still not getting to the weekly discussion, and when we do this history-loving, smart kid, still doesn't seem to know the answers. This is out of character for him.

What are my options, you ask? Well, I am seriously considering jumping ship and returning to Veritas Press. We loved the daily flashcard drill (pre-made, a huge plus!), it really helped his retention, and the daily hands on was good for me, too.

Problem is, that I have already ordered the year 3 ToG in advance. I can't remember the policy - what was it? $25 cancellation fee? I don't know, any really redeeming reason that I can't use SoTW with my 3rd grader (with 7th listening in) and do VP with 7th grader and both working on the cards and song? I can certainly add in a bunch of reading to help him out.

Will I regret this decision? Thanks.
Shelly
A couple of suggestions before you jump ship. How are you doing TOG? What kind of work are you expecting? What are your goals for this year for your ds? Is the retention important or are you trying to help move him into logic stage work? If he isn't ready to go forward into logic-stage discussions, then the daily drill instead of the discussion is fine, but..... Is that what your goal for the year is?

I'd suggest giving him a couple of discussion questions at the begining of the week to use as a guide while he is reading. The answers are covered in the assignments for the week for the student. So give him the questions, and at the end of the week, talk to him about them. Simple. Let him take notes from his reading. He doesn't need to be able to discuss them like someone at the END of the logic stage. He is at the beginning. He needs to slowly learn the process. He needs to learn how to find the answers to the questions in his reading. He needs to learn how to put the information together and draw conclusions from it. It is a process. It takes time and training. It isn't immediate. Is isn't the samething as memorizing or recalling facts. It is the next step in the process.

Try it for a couple of weeks then decide if TOG is for you.

Janice in NJ

12-01-2008, 08:32 PM

Yes, Jamie!

This is the kind of thing that I try to do with my kids as much as possible. A Great Books Education is about ideas - at least our version of it is. LOTS of great discussions; lots of terrific opportunities to parent! Great stuff!

I shoot for the cozy thin; but for us, often it's just hard work. But sometimes it's cozy, warm, wonderful, and fulfilling. Those are the times that I hold dear. Strung together, they sustain me when this project seems too tough.

Peace,
Janice

sandra in va

12-01-2008, 09:45 PM

Just wanted to add that the $25 cancellation fee is for when they receive the 450 orders. I think they just don't want a lot of people cancelling on them at the end. I actually ordered year 3, changed my mind, and Scott Sommerville cancelled it no problems. (Since then, I have changed my mind yet again and decided I did want a print copy and went ahead and ordered it again! I won't be cancelling this time!) :)

Hope this helps,

Shelly in IL

12-01-2008, 10:14 PM

Where are you expecting dc to find the answers to the history questions page?

We are not following a spine, just doing the recommended reading in the "reading" section. It just seems that not all the answers are in there. IT is not that I mind doing discussion. I just want to be able to find the answers that need discussion. Perhaps I am just too lazy to want to dig through all that Encyclopedia stuff at the end and yet, he doesn't have access (unless I give it to him - which I have done a couple times) to this information.

Am I just missing something? Really, I just think it is not connecting with my brain!!! Am I not expecting enough out of him/me? I just don't feel like my hand is held AT ALL!!

So, we are floundering. I have not cancelled, yet, but unless I figure this out quickly, I am certainly going to. Thanks for any help.

Karenciavo

12-01-2008, 10:27 PM

I used Year 2 Redesign last year and I'm sorry, but I don't recall there being that much difficulty finding answers. My dialectic son read the history core and in depth. Perhaps sometimes literature provides some of the answers (for some reason Gutenberg comes to mind.) We have Streams, but more times than not he didn't read it. Could you possibly do the dialectic history assignment on your own and see if you can come up with the answers? Even bright 12 yo boys need their hands held sometimes. Ask me how I know. :001_rolleyes:

harmonyartmom

12-01-2008, 10:43 PM

We have a beginning of the week meeting on Monday mornings and the boys and I sit at the table with the week's info in front of me. I briefly go over the teaching objectives on the very first pages of the weekly stuff. Then we turn to the accountability questions and we read them out loud together. Then I literally stack the books on the table and review with them which books are "absolute reads"(core books) and which ones are optional (in-depth and textbook). This meeting takes 20 minutes at most and it is so worth the extra effort.

I do not require the boys to write out the answers to the accountability questions but it helps them when they are reading to keep in mind what the weekly objectives are. We follow a more CM approach and they orally narrate back as they go along and once a week they do one longer written narration on something that they found interesting in the reading.

The accountability questions are a tool that they use to make sure they are getting the main ideas but then we jump off from there.

On Friday morning we meet back together and go over the AQs again orally and they share their written narrations. If they have had trouble, I usually know during the week so occasionally we go over together some of the info in the teacher's notes. I found that if I turn to the teaching objectives page (first page of the week usually) they list the page numbers for the teacher's notes for each subject. This gets me close to where I want to be without wading through all the teacher's notes in the weekly info.

I don't always read everything they read so I try to informally keep tabs on what they are reading each day....about five minutes each max and it works.

Here is a post on my blog that I wrote that might help too:
Taming the Desire to Do Everything (http://harmonyartmom.blogspot.com/2008/10/tapestry-of-grace-taming-desire-to-do.html)

Hope something here helps you out. I would stick it out. Year two is a beast but it seems to be getting easier as the units go along...we are in week 16.

Barb-Harmony Art Mom

Shelly in IL

12-01-2008, 10:48 PM

We started in unit 3 of year 2. Ok, book questions... are you having them read any more than the books in the "reading assignments" sections? My son is covering all the reading, but I am not, so I don't know where he is going wrong. I will take Karen's advice and try to do a week of assignments.

I am just having such a HUGE disconnect - I AM!! I just don't feel like I get it - that probably translates to him getting it! Thanks for the suggestions. I think I also don't have the time to put into the preparation. I really appreciate all you folks who have more than 2 kids and are getting it done!

Karen in CO

12-01-2008, 11:05 PM

And Shelly, Just give a few questions to start with. Don't try to start with all of them. And you don't have to do all of the reading - that is why the TOG guide has the answers for the teacher ;)

Janice in NJ

12-02-2008, 08:39 AM

And one more thing... just because it wasn't mentioned!

Shelly...

The Yellow Reading Assignment pages are important - but DON'T forget the next yellow two-page spread: The Weekly Overview! The first section, Student Threads, gives you the big "forest" picture for the week. Make sure that you go over these on your own BEFORE you begin your planning session with your child AND make sure that you go over these with your child.

When I sit with my kids, we do our planning session this way:

1. We read the first page of the "Student Activity" pages: "General Information for All Grades" ALOUD first!
2. Then we flip to the Yellow Weekly Overview pages and read through those sections (for their level). "This is where we are headed, guys. These are your targets: the info, connections, and understanding that you should walk away with after this week."
3. Then we sit with their planners. We plan their reading assignments. We look through the Student Activity Pages AND the 2nd page (right hand side) of the Weekly Overview (Yellow Pages) to plan their "Thinking Assignments" (questions, projects, Etc). I usually require them to write out the answers to the Accountability Questions. They need brief notes for the Thinking Questions. However as we are moving into unit three of year two, I am picking and choosing questions and topics for my two older kids to turn into mini-reports: longer responses with more arguments, comparisons, etc. Then finally, we look through the writing assignments and PLAN when we will cover those. The actual teaching/instruction for the writing assignments comes later in the week - when they've had a chance to do some reading and have the chops to SAY something about the topic. THAT's TOG's method: Read. Think. Write. We keep glancing in that direction during our planning session.

BUT those TWO Yellow-Page Spreads, Reading Assignments & Weekly Overview, and those Red Writing Assignment pages are the "Big Picture" for those three steps:

Reading Assignments: Something to READ
Weekly Overview: Something to THINK about
Writing Assignments: Something to WRITE about.

As the child grows older and matures into the D stage and the R stage, more and more of the "thinking" moves away from hands-on projects and casual narration ("So tell me what you read!) and into the Socratic discussion model. (That's why they have the questions in the Student Activity Pages! To make sure that they READ the material AND to help them to move into the direction of becoming better readers! Because my kids needed to smack into the notion that they aren't READERS yet - even though they think they know how to read. "Hmmmm.... So there is more to reading than you thought, eh?" Tee Hee!)

As you begin to bounce these questions around at the D Level (through that Socratic-type discussion: question, answer, another question, hmmmm, "Are you sure? Because I was thinking...." ect) , you can start to introduce your kids to the notion that there might be more to think about (to "read") than was apparent to them at first glance.

And that - that THINKING step - is an early pre-writing step. JUST as you used narration between the "read" step and the "write" step when they were very little, you use the Socratic discussion between the "read" step and the "write" step when they are older. This way, when they begin to write, they have something "adult" to say: an analysis, a comparison, an argument, etc. Those are adult-level writing assignments which require adult-level thinking. And THIS means that you have to TALK your way through it first. They can't make these kinds of connections on their own; you have to model this pondering process for them: Ta-da! The Socratic discussion. Question. Answer. Hmmmm... So what if? Does that make sense? Ah-ha! It's like narration for the logic and rhetoric stage student. You do it together, out-loud in the beginning. As they mature (this takes years!), they will eventually begin to do it AS they read. NOW they are becoming a reader! (They'll start scribbling in the margins of all of their books!) Finally! Woo-Hoo!

The TOG model will get you there, but it does take time and drop-by-drop-the-bucket-fills effort. :001_smile:

So, don't forget about those Yellow "Weekly Overview" pages. They are a brief checklist of your "thinking" choices for the week; they are fleshed out in the Student Activity Pages for each level, but the list format in the "Weekly Overview" pages makes it easier to plan and SEE where you are going so that you can make choices based on your student's skill level and your year's goals. AND it models the process FOR them. They can start to see HOW to think. They will approach their reading with questions in mind: broad, over-view questions and detail-oriented questions (see blue Student Activity pages). Adult readers do this automatically. Kids need to be taught to be active readers. TOG holds their hand so they can approach this in a step-by-step way.

But you have to teach them HOW to do this. My kids would NEVER have figured this out on their own. Sheesh - I've taught it and they still flounder. Baby steps! We'll get there! :D

Hope that helps!

Peace,
Janice

Enjoy your little people
Enjoy your journey

harmonyartmom

12-02-2008, 09:54 AM

I wanted to jump back in to say that we also use the first page of the Student Activity Sheets together on Monday mornings and that gives them a "big picture" look at their week. Since we are using the R level this year, they have already covered a lot of the ground we are going over so this helps us to narrow down what we are going to be focusing on each particular week.

I loved what Janice said about increasing levels of discussion and it is my *favorite* part of using Tapestry of Grace. The teacher's pages have helped me facilitate a great back and forth discussion about topics the boys are reading. We had a great discussion about Martin Luther last week and it amazed me how much the boys have gleaned from the materials they have read, filtered out the bias, put themselves into the time period, discussed Bible principles involved, and thought about which side of the coin they would have been on during that era.

I learned my lesson with the red writing pages too. I look at the topics and think to myself that these are dry bones and hesitate to assign them. But I will tell you right now that the writing that comes from the R level prompts is awesome. I had two papers lately that made my heart sing because they were what we have been working towards all these years. They were not "reports" but real essays, well thought out essays.

Maybe all this would have happened anyway but I think that TOG has helped me lead them in a way that on my own would have been more bumpy and less organized.

Thanks Janice for sharing what you do in your family....it gave me some additional things to think about.

Barb-Harmony Art Mom

3Rivers

12-02-2008, 01:51 PM

I wanted to tack on another thought as a side note.

What I had mentioned about making discussions an event was not meant entirely as a warm fuzzy time. I think what I was trying to say can be applied to any new thing we're trying to wrap our minds around, whether it be a new construct in how we approach teaching, another way of thinking, or a new habit we're trying to establish. I just mention this b/c Shelly said it was hard to get around to doing history and that this was a new challenge, doing without the Veritas cards.

If I create "an event" and a special time set aside for either researching answers or having discussion time, or whatever it is I need to do, I am setting up behavioral cues that tell my brain "this is important" and it becomes easier to establish that new habit. It then becomes easier to more fully engage in the process once I have established what it is I need to do.

But beyond that, I'm also hearing frustration in doing this new way. It's taking more work than before. There also seemed to be a desire to not chuck it completely. I was hearing some " I don't know what to do" as well as a "not wanting to" in the mix, which is what I was responding to. You've gotten a lot of great responses from experienced TOG users that I am interested in going back and reading as well. I just wanted to offer a different perspective to throw in too from a pscyh/behavioral viewpoint. :)

I also wanted to jump back in because I realized that my previous post sounded like I thought school was all happy happy times. LOL Nope. I do think, however, that work can be re-framed as something to be attacked with gusto. And *IF* this is an issue of "I now know what to do but I just don't want to", then re-framing is a great tool. If I make research or discussion or whatever it is an event in my mind and create the setting positively, then I'm telling my brain that this is something positive and enjoyable. When I (personally speaking) do my two hours of work each day I make a light snack and brew a pot of my favorite Starbucks coffee. It doesn't make the work any easier, but the external trappings say to my brain "Hey! This is fun! I like work because then I get coffee!"

Anyway...such are my thoughts. Take what applies and forget the rest. ;)

Shelly in IL

12-02-2008, 05:05 PM

I am trying. Today my son is researching the early lives of a few important colonial types, reading Robinson Crusoe, etc. I just wish there were a spine....

3Rivers

12-02-2008, 05:36 PM

I know what you mean. I have been thinking the same thing lately, and what I think I'll be doing whether we do TOG or SL again or another program is going back to a spine for history. We did that before and supplemented for my older child, a voracious reader who could then branch off and read other things to supplement. I go crazy with little pieces of this and that everywhere!

So, what I will probably do next year is choose a spine for history for all my children (recommendations from WTM) then choose extra books, projects, activities and writing assignments from TOG based on their ages and combine as much as I can. That's the plan anyway, so I don't feel so strung out.

Hang in there!

Jamie

harmonyartmom

12-02-2008, 06:18 PM

I know what it is like not to have that "spine" to refer to or to be able find all "the" answers in and it does sort of feel like you are jumping out in free fall. Hang in there and let it all sift through...you are on the road to helping your children learn independence and self-educating and it isn't easy.

I can see it so clearly now that we are four years into TOG. I no longer have to do all the up front work with my R level boys. They are given some lee-way in how their education looks because they have worked through how to find the main points in things and to know how to research even deeper.

High school is so much easier with them taking over some of the "driver's seat" role but we would not be in that position without having worked our way up the ladder using the D level work the last three years. In my opinion, the D level work that needs to be done is the most labor intensive of all the stages. There are just so many study skills and basics they need to get under their belts so that when they reach the R level, they are equipped to at least start with a good set of skills. So not only are you trying to present history and literature, you are helping them to do things like make an outline by finding main points, putting together an essay, using research tools, read for information as well as making connections, keeping themselves organized and completing work on time. There is so much to do in the D stage.

I decided that a good education is more about learning to come up with good questions and then finding the answers yourself and not the other way around. Filling in the blanks isn't always the best way to learn about something, maybe not in history. Connections, connections and more connections and then it sticks.

Now if I could just grapple with literature in TOG. We are taking it one week at a time and so far I have learned that I am underestimating my boys' ability to tackle the "hard stuff". I have the bias and the lack of motivation but the teacher's guide and the documents on the Loom are helping me focus on how to approach literature in the R level. Can anyone hear how happy I am about making it through Henry V? :) We did it and we enjoyed it! It made sense and we could relate it to the history we have been learning about so far this unit! Wahoo!

More than you wanted to hear, I'm sure.
Barb-Harmony Art Mom

ChemMommy

12-03-2008, 12:25 PM

Like you, I was surprised that my kids, who are good readers, couldn't answer questions at the end of the week.

Then, I had a realization. Sometimes, they had read something on Monday that they were supposed to recall and use on Friday. And, more importantly, they were not given any guidelines about what was important in what they were reading! Ah, no! That's not appropriate for my 9th and 7th grader.

So now, we sit down on Monday and I go over the accountability questions, telling them what to look for this week in their reading, what things they might want to write down to memorize (literary terms and such), and definitely covering the "threads" for the week. This has noticeably helped their ability to see the big picture for the week.

The discussions on Friday have improved since we started this. No, they are not ripping off answers to every question and are not joyfully running to me for discussion time. But, they are noticeably better prepared.

I'm tempted to break the discussion into multiple parts and discuss books and readings as they finish them, rather than waiting to the end of the week. I haven't tried this yet (there's only so much mom to go around, you know!) but I hope to move in that direction.

Hang in there! TOG is meaty and, unfortunately for this mom who loves black and white answers, a lot of the TOG questions aren't immediately answerable.

herbalgirl

12-03-2008, 11:10 PM

Fay Migotsky

02-09-2009, 11:08 AM

What if you involved your husband and made it a dinner table discussion just to get the thing going. Sometimes husbands are better at the analytical discussions and could help out at this point.

Fay

razorbackmama

02-09-2009, 11:28 AM

How is it going, Shelley?

I jumped ship for similar reasons after using TOG for 2 years. I used LG and UG and couldn't find in the reading materials what we supposedly were supposed to cover. I was told I wasn't doing it right. I dunno. Whatever.

We use Diana Waring's materials for world history and will use Winter Promise for American history whenever we get to that point in history.

Don't feel you HAVE to stay with TOG if it's not working for you.

Shelly in IL

02-09-2009, 11:49 AM

It is still a bit difficult. But, I found that if I removed all the extra pages for the different levels, and focused on what we were supposed to be doing, it was better.

I also have a tendency to skip the artsy stuff and have since purchased Homeschool in the woods arts/activities cd rom. That has made it more fun for us.

Thanks for the shout out!

TMarie

02-09-2009, 12:07 PM

Janice in NJ gave some brillant advice for TOG users in this thread...
http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80890&page=2

JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst

02-09-2009, 12:40 PM

I think it was Karen Ciavo's Blog (Rivendell Press) that explained how to make a TOG Student Notebook (a fabulous idea by the way). Part of the notebook involved her reformatting the questions with space for answers (she gave lots of how tos). I thought this was great-perhaps you shouldn't use the questions as a review at the end initially but rather to fill in as he reads. Perhaps a sort of note taking system-just bullet point type phrases that can become your discussion at the end of the week.

Just a thought-

HeatherH

02-09-2009, 01:07 PM