Grammar ? re: "Helping Verbs" - What's the point of identifying these?

[yvonne]

We're working in R&S 3 and have just arrived at the lesson on helping verbs. What is the point of identifying these as "helping verbs"? Why not just call it whatever verb tense it is?

Ex... He has eaten his dinner.
Why identify "has" as the helping verb and "eaten" as the verb being helped? Why not just identify "has eaten" as the verb in the present perfect tense?


Or.... He was eating his dinner.
Why identify "was" as a helping verb? Why not just identify "was eating" as the verb in the past progressive tense?


If there's no real reason to call something a "helping" verb, I'd rather just stick with calling it the verb/verb phrase in whatever tense it is.

Any ideas/suggestions?

Thanks,
yvonne

[Cadam]

The main verb and the helping verb work together to create the verb phrase and they are a tip off to tense later.

[angela in ohio]

The biggest reason I see is to help differentiate it from a linking verb.

[matroyshka]

I'm not really sure - I guess they think it's easier than learning the actual names of the tenses and how to make them? Maybe also the same reason they make you memorize all the different tenses of the helping verbs instead of just saying that they're all different tenses of just a few different verbs.

I just today gave a tutorial/overview on the names/structures of the tenses and modes in English, which I had to make up myself, as I couldn't find it taught explicitly in any of the English grammar books I had.

I wanted to cover it as we're really getting into these tenses in German and Spanish, and I thought it would be helpful to know which these were in English.

[yvonne]

The main verb and the helping verb work together to create the verb phrase and they are a tip off to tense later.

That's what I'm thinking... If it's just an intermediate step before learning the actual tenses, I want to skip it. In another program, we've already learned present, future, imperfect, pres. perfect/past perfect, present progressive/past progressive. I'd rather stick with these, but I'll teach "helping verb" if there's some use for it down the line.

I
I just today gave a tutorial/overview on the names/structures of the tenses and modes in English,
I wanted to cover it as we're really getting into these tenses in German and Spanish, and I thought it would be helpful to know which these were in English.

That's part of the issue for me, too... We'll be using the real terms for the tenses in French (I'm sure) & Latin (I think) so why not just do it now in English?


The biggest reason I see is to help differentiate it from a linking verb.

:) Ok. This is a possibility since I'm not sure what's meant by a "linking verb." (Haven't got to those in R&S, yet, and I never called them "linking verbs," I don't think.) Is a linking verb just a form of be or other state of being verb (ie, feel, look, etc.)? Then a linking verb would take either a predicate nominative or a predicate adjective, right? Never a direct or indirect object, right?


Thanks for all the help! I don't think I know anyone irl who could help me with this.

yvonne

[Julie in MN]

I think a lot of the naming of parts of speech has questionable merit, so you know my bias.

But that said, I do think that "helping verb" is a signal that there are 2 verbs in a sentence. Often kids are able to "find the verb" but get confused if there is more than one word.

And then, as others have said, it is easier for kids to realize that the tense is in one of the verbs & not the other. e.g. "Have walked" is present tense even though there's an "ed," and "did run" becomes "ran" without its helper.

Julie

[matroyshka]

This is a possibility since I'm not sure what's meant by a "linking verb." (Haven't got to those in R&S, yet, and I never called them "linking verbs," I don't think.) Is a linking verb just a form of be or other state of being verb (ie, feel, look, etc.)? Then a linking verb would take either a predicate nominative or a predicate adjective, right? Never a direct or indirect object, right?

I've been thinking about this lately myself - I'm also thinking that a "linking" verb is just an intransitive verb (ie doesn't take an object). We've been covering the difference between transitive/intransitive in some depth in German, where the difference really matters, so this "easier" terminology seems just "extra".

Oh, and I just figured out a great wayto remember which is which - a TRANSitive verb TRANSfers the action to the object. Intransitive verbs don't - the action stays with the subject. (I'm guessing this is why they're called that, but I'd never had it explained to me this way, so that was my little epiphany :tongue_smilie:) I actualy find that easier to understand than "linking" verb.

And then, as others have said, it is easier for kids to realize that the tense is in one of the verbs & not the other. e.g. "Have walked" is present tense even though there's an "ed," and "did run" becomes "ran" without its helper.

I do think that's what their thinking is. But I kinda agree with OP that why not just say "present perfect is formed with the present tense of 'to have' and the past participle (ie 'walked')". It's true that most past participles in English are identical with the simple past, but... it is true that English has a startling variety of verb forms, with many having three helping verbs.

When we just covered the helping verbs in English, my kids said "oh, in German those are called Modalverbs". Yep.

[angela in ohio]

Linking verbs are not the same as intransitive verbs. "Action" verbs can be either transitive or intransitive. Linking verbs are different from action verbs.

Linking verbs "link" the P.N. or the P.A., like Yvonne said, to the subject. Action verb show action: the intransitive ones have no diret object and the transitive ones do. The same noun can be either tran. or intrans., depending on context. Then there are linking verbs. Some verbs that are helping can also be action verbs (has,) and some helping verbs can also be linking (was.)

I hope that helps. Anyway, I think it is good to be able to identify the type of noun. It makes diagramming much easier, as students know what other words to look for (a PN, a DO, and IO, etc.)

[In The Great White North]

My 1941 Voyages in English calls them "copulative verbs." I guess "copulative" has only one meaning these days? :D

Anyway, the main reason to call helping verbs "helping verbs" is that everyone else does and then you'll know what they are talking about.

[yvonne]

Anyway, the main reason to call helping verbs "helping verbs" is that everyone else does and then you'll know what they are talking about.

LOL! I'm coming to that conclusion, too.

I think I'll stick with focusing on the verb & tense. I plan on R&S through 8th, and I hope not worrying about identifying verbs as "helping" or "linking" won't cause problems later.

Thanks!
yvonne

[MIch elle]

I plan on R&S through 8th, and I hope not worrying about identifying verbs as "helping" or "linking" won't cause problems later.

Thanks!
yvonne

Helping verbs come up in every level of R&S English; in the lessons, exercises, worksheets and tests.

We're studying perfect tenses in R&S E. 6; the present perfect tense uses the helping verb has or have; the past perfect tense always uses the helper verb had. Just one example.

[matroyshka]

Linking verbs "link" the P.N. or the P.A., like Yvonne said, to the subject. Action verb show action: the intransitive ones have no diret object and the transitive ones do.

I know that the same "action" verb can be either transitive or intransitive, but when is a linking verb transitive?

He swam across the lake - swam is intransitive
He swam the lake - swam is transitive, lake is DO

See, in German it's really easy to tell the difference because the helping verb that goes with the past participle in the perfect tenses is "to be" with intransitive verbs and "to have" with transitive verbs (unlike in English where it's always "to have" - although I've heard in OE it was like German)

So in the first, it would be "Er ist geschwommen" and in the second "Er hat geschwommen" - although the predicate would actually be between the two verb parts - you think they're hard to find in English!

So "action" verbs can be transitive or intransitive, but can "linking" verbs ever be anything but intransitive? I guess to me it seems like another extra term, but I think I'm showing that I learned most of my in-depth grammar from foreign language study, and I'm carrying my prejudices from there back over to my native tongue. :tongue_smilie:

[yvonne]

Michelle,

Thank you so much for replying.

In your experience with R&S, if we learn to identify the present and past perfect tenses from the beginning (R&S 3), is there any reason to learn to identify a "helping verb"? Is the term "helping verb" only used as a step to help learn present/past perfect?

It's hard for me to teach something if I don't know where it's going, so I'm trying to figure out why they bother teach "helping" and "linking" verbs.

Thanks again, for your thoughts!
yvonne


Helping verbs come up in every level of R&S English; in the lessons, exercises, worksheets and tests.

We're studying perfect tenses in R&S E. 6; the present perfect tense uses the helping verb has or have; the past perfect tense always uses the helper verb had. Just one example.

[angela in ohio]

So "action" verbs can be transitive or intransitive, but can "linking" verbs ever be anything but intransitive?

Linking verbs aren't either transitive or intransitive; they never are followed by a direct object, as they can only be followed by a predicate nominative or a predicate adjective.

HTH!! :)

[MIch elle]

Michelle,

Thank you so much for replying.

In your experience with R&S, if we learn to identify the present and past perfect tenses from the beginning (R&S 3), is there any reason to learn to identify a "helping verb"? Is the term "helping verb" only used as a step to help learn present/past perfect?

It's hard for me to teach something if I don't know where it's going, so I'm trying to figure out why they bother teach "helping" and "linking" verbs.

Thanks again, for your thoughts!
yvonne

Yes, your dc will need to memorize all the helping verbs; they will appear every year in grades 3-7 on the tests (as well the other places as mentioned).

R&S E. 7, test 4 "Match the terms: present perf., past perf., fut. perf., etc. - #10. Helping verb have or has is used. #11 Helping verbs shall have or will have are used. #12. Helping verb had is used."

R&S E. 5, test 4 "Write the 23 helping verbs in groups." This question is NOT tied to perfect verb tenses.

It's the same with linking verbs. Later they will have to memorize the sometimes linking verbs: taste, feel, smell, sound, look, appear, grow, seem, stay, become and remain.

My advice is to you is to purchase used R&S English books a few years ahead to see for yourself, if you are that concerned. They are easy enough to find. I sold everything below gr.6 but still have my dc's tests. R&S English works wonderfully if used as is (with modification of ALL that written work).

I learned the hard way that to just accept homeschool wisdom was not the best way for my family. R&S math did not get us to where we needed to be at the end of R&S math 8. I WISH I had bought math several years ahead and looked & compared it to other math programs. You may find that you need to do this too.

But I can tell you my experience with R&S English. R&S English 7 grammar is much harder than my ds's 9th grade English class at his private school. High school English classes do not have that much time to devote to grammar. English class is split betw. grammar, literature, vocabulary, writing and PSAT/SAT prep. He's getting A's in grammar and maintains a B+ English average after the first quarter.

Blessings,