Not paying attention to detail

[Mama Lynx]

We're having a problem with our oldest son (12).

He finished Singapore 6B several months ago. DH took over teaching him math, and chose an older Dolciani pre-algebra book. DS is very good at math. However, we cannot seem to get him to pay attention to detail.

He tends to get the answers right, but forgets to simplify, or to keep track of his -/+. For instance, today he had a problem for which the answer he came up with was 45/6. DH asked him to simplify it, and his answer was "I can't. I don't know how." But he *does* know how. He's done it many times.

So he ends up missing a great many problems, because of just not thinking.

How can we help him? I don't want him to get discouraged; like I said, he's very good at math. However, we end up marking most of the problems wrong, because he just didn't stop and take the time to think.

He does the same thing in Latin, but I don't get as worked up about it as DH does. I do work on correcting the problems, but am more laid-back. DS is just one of those kids whose mind is fast, and always racing ahead - we work on his pronunciation, too, because he often can't be bothered with that pesky enunciation ;-)

DS wants to be an engineer, and we all know that engineers can't be careless in their work.

Advice? Help? I worry that if things go on as they are, DS *will* get discouraged, because DH takes a pretty hard line here. And I don't know that he's wrong to take the hard line, but I don't want ds to become discouraged and to start thinking that he's bad at math.

Sorry for the rambling. Need more coffee.

[Deece in MN]

Are you sure he understands what is meant by "simplify it"? Has he simplified improper fractions before? Sometimes what we as adults think is so obvious and simple is not so for our children.

Maybe try using a different term such as "reduce the fraction" and see if that makes a difference.

Also, he may just be good at plugging in numbers or following the patterns of the problems without really understanding why it is done that way. If this is the case, it could be the root of his "just not thinking".

I would not let this slide because if he is missing a "great many problems" as you say, you really need to figure out what is the root of the problem before continuing on.

For him to truly be successful in the higher levels of math, he really needs to understand the foundations and not be continually making these types of errors.

Have him talk through a problem with you. He should be able to articulate each step of the problem and what he is doing. If he can't, that may be an indication that he is not understanding the process.

I don't think your dh is wrong to take a hard line, but you need to determine if your ds is just not paying attention or is not understanding.

Good luck and I hope you figure it out.

[Mama Lynx]

Are you sure he understands what is meant by "simplify it"? Has he simplified improper fractions before? Sometimes what we as adults think is so obvious and simple is not so for our children.

Maybe try using a different term such as "reduce the fraction" and see if that makes a difference.

Also, he may just be good at plugging in numbers or following the patterns of the problems without really understanding why it is done that way. If this is the case, it could be the root of his "just not thinking".

I would not let this slide because if he is missing a "great many problems" as you say, you really need to figure out what is the root of the problem before continuing on.

For him to truly be successful in the higher levels of math, he really needs to understand the foundations and not be continually making these types of errors.

Have him talk through a problem with you. He should be able to articulate each step of the problem and what he is doing. If he can't, that may be an indication that he is not understanding the process.

I don't think your dh is wrong to take a hard line, but you need to determine if your ds is just not paying attention or is not understanding.

Good luck and I hope you figure it out.

Yes, he has simplified improper fractions before. And he's done factoring.

Yes, he can talk through a problem, articulating each step.

He's always been terrible at plugging numbers into an algorithm, because he naturally finds his own way to do it that makes more sense - the struggle comes when I want him to do the algorithm. I really don't think he's plugging in numbers rotely, without understanding.

I think he understands the concepts and the foundations, but then turns his brain off. I think that once his brain has figured out the problem, he cannot be bothered with details like finishing up, and writing things down correctly. he's that kind of kid - once he mentally figures things out, there's no follow-through. When he writes, he can't be bothered to spell or punctuate - another constant struggle; but he knows perfectly well *how* to spell, and punctuate.

I'm not letting this slide. That's why I'm here, asking for ideas.

[Jean in Newcastle]

We are working on having ds10 talk himself through the steps. We go over the steps necessary to solve sample problems at the beginning of the session. At the end of each step I want him to stop and literally ask himself in his head, "what is the next step?" We're just starting this and as with all habits it will take awhile to really "take" but I see glimmers of it helping.

[Deece in MN]

Yes, he has simplified improper fractions before. And he's done factoring.

Yes, he can talk through a problem, articulating each step.

He's always been terrible at plugging numbers into an algorithm, because he naturally finds his own way to do it that makes more sense - the struggle comes when I want him to do the algorithm. I really don't think he's plugging in numbers rotely, without understanding.

I think he understands the concepts and the foundations, but then turns his brain off. I think that once his brain has figured out the problem, he cannot be bothered with details like finishing up, and writing things down correctly. he's that kind of kid - once he mentally figures things out, there's no follow-through. When he writes, he can't be bothered to spell or punctuate - another constant struggle; but he knows perfectly well *how* to spell, and punctuate.

I'm not letting this slide. That's why I'm here, asking for ideas.

Ok, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were letting it slide. I worded my thoughts badly.

Ok, so he understands the process and how to do the problems. I guess at this point I would hold him accountable for not finishing his work properly.

What do you do when he makes these mistakes? Do you point them out and talk about what needs to be done? Or do you just mark which ones are wrong and have him go back and figure out what is wrong?

I wouldn't make it easy on him. If he is making careless mistakes, hold him accountable in a way that he will realize that doing it right the first time is easier than having to spend time reworking problems or doing extra problems, etc.

[Patricia in WA]

I could have written this post myself! I have a Math brained child who could care less about details. We are on Chapter 4 of NEM Book 1 (adding, subtracting, multiplying or dividing positive and negetive numbers) and we are having a similar battle. He will look at the problem in the book, stare off into space and then write down the answer. He gets them right but will forgot to write the negative sign. I know what he means. I know he knows the rules to apply for them otherwise he would do the operation wrong and end up with the wrong answer but can I mark it right if he just forgot to put down the negative? If I ask him he will look at it and say, "Oh, you know what I meant!" Well yes I do but it is still wrong. This is just the latest battle. There have been others in the past.

I completely understand the writing problem as well. He also can not be bothered to capitalize the first letter in a sentence or to use proper punctuation. He hands me a written paragraph and I hand it back and tell him to now go over it and fix the grammar errors. He does and then I read it. ARGH!

These kids are just too smart for their own good. They CAN do it. They just CAN NOT be bothered.

Here is what I am doing with said son in Math. I am giving him less problems at a time and I sit with him while he does them and if he misses something I stop him right then and make him fix it or slow down or have him do it again. I am hoping that slowing him down physically in this way will lead to HIM wanting to slow down even if it just to get me off his back.:D

Now instead of doing one section (like 4.2) in one day, we took 3 days. He did not like that. Once he has learned a topic especially in Math he needs little repetition and certainly does not need 3 days on the same topic. This is certainly why SM was/is a good match for him. My *hope* is that it will drive him crazy enough to reform his careless habits.

Really, you have to get creative with these kids!:p Don't be discouraged and tell your dh it is how their brains are wired and we have to rewire them. That takes time.

HTHs,

[kaylk in tx]

understand that i was a ps teacher for many years. we were always told that getting ideas down on paper and the mechanics were 2 separate thought processes. so we would do rough drafts, mostly wanting content, wait at least a day and then have them look for spelling/capitalization/punctuation errors. try that with his writing.

for the math, try something similar, but maybe not wait an entire day. have him do the math, but don't check it. later in the day, have him pull it out and "check" it over himself. remind him of things to look for (like are all the fractions simplified, etc.) and see if he can catch them that way. THEN, go over it with him. if he still didn't catch his errors, do a couple with him and let him try it again. or if he does math in the evening with your dh, have him check over it the next morning.

hth
kay :)

[DIY-DY]

We're having a problem with our oldest son (12).

He tends to get the answers right, but forgets to simplify, or to keep track of his -/+. For instance, today he had a problem for which the answer he came up with was 45/6. DH asked him to simplify it, and his answer was "I can't. I don't know how." But he *does* know how. He's done it many times.

So he ends up missing a great many problems, because of just not thinking.

How can we help him? I don't want him to get discouraged; like I said, he's very good at math. However, we end up marking most of the problems wrong, because he just didn't stop and take the time to think.

He does the same thing in Latin, but I don't get as worked up about it as DH does. I do work on correcting the problems, but am more laid-back. DS is just one of those kids whose mind is fast, and always racing ahead - we work on his pronunciation, too, because he often can't be bothered with that pesky enunciation ;-)

DS wants to be an engineer, and we all know that engineers can't be careless in their work.

Advice? Help? I worry that if things go on as they are, DS *will* get discouraged, because DH takes a pretty hard line here. And I don't know that he's wrong to take the hard line, but I don't want ds to become discouraged and to start thinking that he's bad at math.

Sorry for the rambling. Need more coffee.

*passing more coffee*

James(9) does that. It's not that he doesn't get the concepts, or that he can't do the tasks. It's that he just gets caught up in the big picture and forgets to pay attention to the details. +/-, reducing, combining.

In order to help depersonalize the critique of the work, and keep it separate from a perceived criticism of the child, we came up with that phrase. (It's from the Challenger explosion, so the boys "get" that very good engineers dropped the ball and bad things happened. Maybe something else would work better as a tag phrase for your family, but that's what clicked for James.)

Other than that, I think part of it is a maturity issue. If you can keep calm, consistent, and calm and... um, consistent, I think he'll eventually internalize that key.

That's what I cling to, anyway. :)

My favorite Latin gaffes are when he translates every word in a sentence, getting all the information correct - tense, case, gender, number - and then tells me he has no idea what it says. That one makes me laugh (on the inside). On the outside, it makes my eyebrows go haywire and my eye twitch.

[Mrs. H.]

I think maybe your dh is right, and taking a harder line should be the way to go. I'm not talking about yelling at a child because he missed the problems or was carelss, but having to go back and focus on the details is much better for training his brain to think about the small steps that get to the big pictures.

When my dh was in high school, his parents had to get him an algebra tutor because he could look at a problem and tell you the answer, but he had trouble working the steps in the order needed to get to the answer. He wasn't focusing on the details. He retrained his brain to think along the lines of small picture=big picture, and went on to do very well in math, even majoring in a physics-based major in undergraduate school. He then went on to become a lawyer, which is VERY detailed-based, because missing an if, an, or but in a contract can mean the difference between legal action or not.

All that to say, there is nothing wrong with have your son re-work or re-write any work that is done incorrectly because of inattention to detail. You can cut the problems in half if you feel it is too much work, but I would worry less about discouraging him and more about encouraging him to train his brain to think about the details instead of just the answer and moving on. I might would worry about discouraging a younger child, but not a 12 yr. old. JMO.

[DIY-DY]

All that to say, there is nothing wrong with have your son re-work or re-write any work that is done incorrectly because of inattention to detail. You can cut the problems in half if you feel it is too much work, but I would worry less about discouraging him and more about encouraging him to train his brain to think about the details instead of just the answer and moving on. I might would worry about discouraging a younger child, but not a 12 yr. old. JMO.

DS *does* have to re-do the problems. Every step. Every number. And if I feel like he's not getting the message, I'll make up some new ones. It IS important to learn to see the details, and to address them.

My suggestion was meant as a means of conveying the "well, this is wrong, and it looks like it was, once again, something simple that didn't have to be wrong. Fix it, and keep this in mind, pleas." (ie. don't let your lack of detail be the cause of a blown o-ring someday).

[Melinda in VT]

Has your son ever taken an IQ test?

I ask because our oldest son sounds a lot like yours (including the pronunciation) and we discovered when we had him tested last year that his working memory and processing speed are way behind his verbal processing and perceptual reasoning abilities. So he grasps the concepts easily and likes to work quickly (without writing it down) but while he is holding the number in his head, it might change from a 25 to a 24, for example, and then the final answer is wrong.

We didn't share his final scores with him, but we did talk about the spread and what it means.

Wrong answers are still wrong. He still needs to learn to write things down. But the emotional component of the conversation has changed. He understands that his brain is fast in some ways and slow in others and he needs to work on his area of weakness so his area of strength can shine through.

He wants to be a scientist, engineer, or programmer. So we talk a lot about the need for precision in those jobs. If you get the answer wrong and something blows up, it's poor consolation that you understood the concept.

[Rhondabee]

I do wonder if it's just in the nature of middle-school boys to be this way, but...

Someone on the old board suggested circling the "wrong" answers. Then, have ds correct them. I put a checkmark in the circle once it's correct. Keep doing this until he receives a 100% on every paper.

At first, I had to go over all the errors with him, showing him how to re-think through his work before he completely erased everything. Usually, the problem is *one* careless error - not a complete misunderstanding of what to do. He would get *so mad* whenever one was marked wrong, but this process is teaching him to *think* rather than *react*. And, now he understands the value of showing his work - yes!

Now we are also working on "answering the question that was actually asked" across the board in all subjects. Guess it's always something.....;)

[Peek a Boo]

I stumbled upon something else today:

food tends to be a pretty good motivator here :-)

a small bag of X when math is done.
For every problem you miss, Mom gets to eat X amount out of the bag.
Today that bag was whoppers candy, lol. half as many pieces as problems, so errors counted hard.

Positive Goal Reinforcement.
:D

[Plaid Dad]

DH asked him to simplify it, and his answer was "I can't. I don't know how." But he *does* know how. He's done it many times.

This is a bit of a shot in the dark, since my math teaching experience is very limited, but...

My dd gets arithmetic intuitively and can do mental math till the cows come home. But ask her to "show her work" on paper, and she freezes. Yesterday she had some word problems, but when I insisted she write out her mental process, she had a big, screaming fit. I realized that she does this all so quickly in her head that she doesn't recognize the steps she's taking to arrive at the solution - she just "knows" the answer.

What has helped her is to write out a flow chart with all the steps in order. I make her check her work against the flow chart so she can see right way where she is in the process and what the next step is. I used a lot of visual cues (circles and arrows in bright colors) because those help her focus. I also ask her to talk through the steps as she's working a problem. It forces her to slow down and recognize each step as distinct from what comes before and after it.

I don't know if any of this will help your ds - and maybe you've already done something like this - but I figured I'd put it out there just in case.

[Mama Lynx]

Ok, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were letting it slide. I worded my thoughts badly.

Ok, so he understands the process and how to do the problems. I guess at this point I would hold him accountable for not finishing his work properly.

What do you do when he makes these mistakes? Do you point them out and talk about what needs to be done? Or do you just mark which ones are wrong and have him go back and figure out what is wrong?

I wouldn't make it easy on him. If he is making careless mistakes, hold him accountable in a way that he will realize that doing it right the first time is easier than having to spend time reworking problems or doing extra problems, etc.

Thanks :)

We make him go back over every problem, sometimes orally, going step by step (and he can almost always catch his own mistakes when we do that), and sometimes by having him re-write the problems.

So it sounds like we're doing the right things ... but we are really frustrated that having him talk through and re-do doesn't seem to be changing anything. Is this a "give it time" thing? He is frustrated, and sometimes angry, when he has to re-do problems; and yet, nothing changes.

[Mama Lynx]

*passing more coffee*

James(9) does that. It's not that he doesn't get the concepts, or that he can't do the tasks. It's that he just gets caught up in the big picture and forgets to pay attention to the details. +/-, reducing, combining.

In order to help depersonalize the critique of the work, and keep it separate from a perceived criticism of the child, we came up with that phrase. (It's from the Challenger explosion, so the boys "get" that very good engineers dropped the ball and bad things happened. Maybe something else would work better as a tag phrase for your family, but that's what clicked for James.)

Other than that, I think part of it is a maturity issue. If you can keep calm, consistent, and calm and... um, consistent, I think he'll eventually internalize that key.

That's what I cling to, anyway. :)

My favorite Latin gaffes are when he translates every word in a sentence, getting all the information correct - tense, case, gender, number - and then tells me he has no idea what it says. That one makes me laugh (on the inside). On the outside, it makes my eyebrows go haywire and my eye twitch.

I'll mention it to DH.

Oh boy, on the Latin. Aidan would do that. Connor, OTOH, would know immediately what it says, and make all the plurals singular and leave some words out altogether.

[Mama Lynx]

I could have written this post myself! I have a Math brained child who could care less about details. We are on Chapter 4 of NEM Book 1 (adding, subtracting, multiplying or dividing positive and negetive numbers) and we are having a similar battle. He will look at the problem in the book, stare off into space and then write down the answer. He gets them right but will forgot to write the negative sign. I know what he means. I know he knows the rules to apply for them otherwise he would do the operation wrong and end up with the wrong answer but can I mark it right if he just forgot to put down the negative? If I ask him he will look at it and say, "Oh, you know what I meant!" Well yes I do but it is still wrong. This is just the latest battle. There have been others in the past.

I completely understand the writing problem as well. He also can not be bothered to capitalize the first letter in a sentence or to use proper punctuation. He hands me a written paragraph and I hand it back and tell him to now go over it and fix the grammar errors. He does and then I read it. ARGH!

These kids are just too smart for their own good. They CAN do it. They just CAN NOT be bothered.

Here is what I am doing with said son in Math. I am giving him less problems at a time and I sit with him while he does them and if he misses something I stop him right then and make him fix it or slow down or have him do it again. I am hoping that slowing him down physically in this way will lead to HIM wanting to slow down even if it just to get me off his back.:D

Now instead of doing one section (like 4.2) in one day, we took 3 days. He did not like that. Once he has learned a topic especially in Math he needs little repetition and certainly does not need 3 days on the same topic. This is certainly why SM was/is a good match for him. My *hope* is that it will drive him crazy enough to reform his careless habits.

Really, you have to get creative with these kids!:p Don't be discouraged and tell your dh it is how their brains are wired and we have to rewire them. That takes time.

HTHs,

Yep, it sounds like we have the same kid!

We are considering giving fewer problems, but having him write those out formally.

[Mama Lynx]

That's a good idea, Kay. It is what I do with his writing, although at 12 I really, really hope his mechanics get better on the first draft, oh, sometime before he takes the SAT!

He will *hate* going over his math like that, but it is true that when we go over the lesson with him, he can usually catch his own mistakes.

[Mama Lynx]

We have never had him tested. Where did you go for that?

[Mama Lynx]

Rhonda and Peek -

Rhonda, we are doing that. He doesn't get to go on until every problem is correct!

Peek - lol. My diet can't take that kind of reinforcement. YOU can eat candy and drink soda and still look like catwoman. SOME of us can't. Not that I'm bitter ;-)

[Mama Lynx]

This is a bit of a shot in the dark, since my math teaching experience is very limited, but...

My dd gets arithmetic intuitively and can do mental math till the cows come home. But ask her to "show her work" on paper, and she freezes. Yesterday she had some word problems, but when I insisted she write out her mental process, she had a big, screaming fit. I realized that she does this all so quickly in her head that she doesn't recognize the steps she's taking to arrive at the solution - she just "knows" the answer.

What has helped her is to write out a flow chart with all the steps in order. I make her check her work against the flow chart so she can see right way where she is in the process and what the next step is. I used a lot of visual cues (circles and arrows in bright colors) because those help her focus. I also ask her to talk through the steps as she's working a problem. It forces her to slow down and recognize each step as distinct from what comes before and after it.

I don't know if any of this will help your ds - and maybe you've already done something like this - but I figured I'd put it out there just in case.

Yup, that's exactly what we're working on, minus the colored flow chart (though I'm going to give that idea to my DH).

My kids are fantastic at mental math, but yes, it's articulating it that is the problem.

FYI for everyone - Right Start Math periodically has students explain HOW they get an answer. I'm *hopeful* that my 2nd son will not have as hard a time, because of exercises like that. Certainly I never knew to have them articulate an answer when I taught them math - I was just happy with a right answer.

[Deece in MN]

Thanks :)

We make him go back over every problem, sometimes orally, going step by step (and he can almost always catch his own mistakes when we do that), and sometimes by having him re-write the problems.

So it sounds like we're doing the right things ... but we are really frustrated that having him talk through and re-do doesn't seem to be changing anything. Is this a "give it time" thing? He is frustrated, and sometimes angry, when he has to re-do problems; and yet, nothing changes.

It is hard as parents to know what to do and if what we choose is "right", isn't it?

It sounds like you are doing the right things. As others have said, I would continue to help him walk through the steps. If he is a big picture person, this is important. I am a big picture person and I have trouble with this and really need someone to talk me through the process (things like planning and organizing in addition to academic subjects) to help me think it through and "see" the steps. Someone else mentioned writing the steps out on paper like in a flow chart or something. If you don't already do this, it might help him to see it visually in addition to hearing it when you go over it orally.

In addition to these things, yes, it may be a maturity thing. Though if it is the big picture issue, he is going to need helps/tools he can use to work through things in life and it sounds like you are working on that.

Oh, I saw you said in another post one of your boys names is Aidan. That made me smile as that is my ds name. I love that name. :D

Peace

[Mama Lynx]

Thanks, Mrs. H. Sometimes it's good to hear "It's okay to be hard on them."

[KAR120C]

Exactly the same thing, four years younger here.... although I'm seeing some improvement -- quite a bit actually (except pronunciation -- that's still driving me nuts!)

My approach has been this: We spend one hour on math every day during which time I'm helpful and supportive and cheer him on and don't nag about the details. Then I check his work. If he has made honest mistakes, we'll save them for tomorrow to discuss (that is, if he really doesn't understand the concepts). If he has made careless mistakes, I circle them and he has to correct them right then and there. I repeat once AGAIN how he could be taking a break right now if it weren't for a missing negative sign/ mis-copied or mis-read problem/ calculation error. And then I remind him that he's really doing great (he really is!) but that little errors really do make the whole problem wrong and waste his time.

What has changed in the past year or so is that he has started checking his own work, he has gotten more careful to write down all his steps, and his careless errors have been reduced quite a bit. It has been a very long time since we've had any conceptual errors, so basically this whole past year has been an exercise in correcting carelessness... I don't know if it's a significant difference, but when he has to re-do his work, he has to re-do it by himself -- I tell him it's wrong, but he has to find out why and correct it on his own. If I thought he didn't understand I would walk him through it but if it's just carelessness then it's his own time he's wasting and I'll be getting on with whatever I was doing myself.

I did sit him down a few times with a full sheet of blank paper and one problem and walked him through neatly showing each step in order (and not starting at the bottom and working around the available space counter-clockwise, for instance!), and with two-column proof paper showing each step on the left and justifying it on the right. I've done a kind of Socratic approach of questioning each step -- why are you allowed to do that? what rule allows it? why does that rule apply to this situation? And I've let him use a calculator for some problems when I wanted him to focus on process (~especially~ with a calculator available I want to see all the steps written out! I do NOT check work that has only the answer and "well I figured it all out on the calculator" as an excuse!!)

I think it's the combination of:

absolute clarity of what I want to see (did you simplify, did you check your negative signs, did you check your order of operations, is every step justifiable)
a really hard line of not letting any careless errors slip by,
being clear that it's his time he's wasting, not mine, and
repeating all of the above until he can hear it in his head without my saying it.
And definitely, making sure he knows he's doing great, but that that hard work deserves clarity in communication.We're working on the writing in a similar way, but not quite as far along with it.... and on the enunciation I'm just nagging with no effect... LOL

Interesting on the IQ question Melinda raised above, that DS was high in everything except processing speed, which was WAY low compared to everything else. He rarely changes a number (which makes sense considering his working memory test was great), but he does skip over or forget the details (negative sign, carry the one, reducing fractions, reading every single word of the problem and "oh they were asking how many MORE girls there were in the class, not how many girls overall"...), which I think kind of fits with the processing speed, as far as I understand it.

Hope this helps!