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choirfarm
11-22-2008, 08:47 AM
Can you give me a guideline for writing for a 6th grader and an 8th grader? How many papers, paragraphs, etc?

So far they have written 2 IEW style paragraphs, a descriptive paragraph(long one) expository paragraph, persuasive paragraph (sort of, really a letter), a 2-3 page report on a topic of their chosing, a pet peeve essay which was 3/4 of a page, and a history report that was 5 paragraphs but ended up being barely a page. They are currently working on a book report(6th grader) and an analytical essay(8th).

Last year they were in co-op with a speech class and an IEW class, so we just interspersed TOG redesigned 1 writing on light weeks (co-op meets 9 times each semester). This year I am taking TOG redesigned 2 at half speed, so I needed to make up my own topics/ assignments sometimes. We are just finishing unit 1 this week after starting in July. I really used supplemental/extra materials and enjoyed our history study. Anyway, in the past, they have done a lot less writing but I just kept hammering and revising it with them until I thought it was good. This year I have really been working on deadlines. So 2 weeks on this past 5 paragraph history report seemed like what would be reasonable, but they were AWFUL!!! My 6th grader in particular is really struggling. How much should his writing be following a formal pattern?? I don't know if I am expecting too much. We do the graphic organizers. So the 6th grader wrote about the Hundred Years War. I helped him with the organizer: 1st paragraph about English strengths, 2nd paragraph about French strengths, and then the last paragraph about the results. We FILLED IN THE CHART TOGETHER!!! Then this is the rambling result I get:

The Hundred Years war was a devastating war between France and England. Many were killed in this war. It started in 1337 A.D. Edward the III claimed the throne of France because his mother’s brother was the King of France. The English, who were outnumbered 3-1, abruptly attacked.
The English had advantages and disadvantages. Even though the English, at first, where outnumbered, they used cunning to defeat the French in most major battles, but they fought in France, which made it harder to get provisions. The English won almost all major battles because of cunning, but lost because they didn’t capture any castles. When Edward the III attacked at Sluys, he saw that the French had chained their boats together so the English could not pass. It did not work. The English archers wreaked havoc on the French. The French were utterly smashed. The French fled. Six years later the French and English fought at Crecy. Edward was marching through France when he heard the French were close behind. Phillip, the King of France, had 120,000 men, compared to England’s 20,000 men. Edward the III and his son Edward the IV, also called the Black prince because he wore black amour, told the army to stop and camp at Crecy. The next morning Edward the III divided his army into three parts. He gave his son one of the parts. The French marched and saw the English, who where well rested. King Phillip commanded his army to stop. The back part walked until they were with the front part. The front part went forward, and the back part followed, etc, so the English archers ripped the French to pieces.
The French had a stronger army, but because they were not as cunning as the English was they lost many major battles. The war stopped in 1348 because of the Black Death. In 1413, King Henry the V tried to claim the throne of France. The King of France sent a letter to the King of England refusing. The Dauphin or Prince of France also sent a letter with tennis balls. He rudely remarked that Henry the V was being a foolish boy, and that he should play some tennis. Soon after, Henry the V attacked, and ruined the French army. The King of France gave Henry the V his daughter and told him that he was the king of France. However, Henry the V never got to be the King if France. He died soon after the agreement. His son, Henry VI, was only a baby. France was divided in Civil war. Some people wanted Charles VII, who had rudely insulted Henry V, to be King. Others wanted the baby Henry to be King. Then Joan of Arc came. She won back Orleans. Then she was captured and burned at the stake. The French fought on and finally drove the English out of France.
In the end, the French won. They entirely knocked the English out of France. It did not matter that the English had won almost all the major battles. Losing hurt the English economy because it cost the people of England higher taxes, which the people did not like. The English had already lost to Scotland. The war had lasted 116 years. The French had gained all there land back. The war was finally over.


He did this for his D-Day paper as well. We talked through a thesis and the 3 main points and then his paper just described the events in chronological order!!! GRRR!!!


My 8th grader can do it, but would spend his whole day doing Algebra and Biology if he could and really doesn't enjoy writing. It's good enough he says. His Olympic paper was really good because he likes sports, but the William Wallace paper... UGH!! There are obvious errors, lack of transitions, and errors that either he or his brother should have seen( He was very brace instead of brave???) Here is his paper:

William Wallace was an extraordinary hero in Scottish history. Because there are several myths about him, he is still a national hero in Scotland. He was also a great leader, and he changed the history of Scotland.
There is myth about Wallace was the son of Sir Malcolm Wallace. Nobody knows if this is true, but some people believe he was not a son of a knight, and some people thought he was descended from the Welsh, and some people believe he was the son of Allan Wallace. No one knows when or where Wallace was born. The dates from his birth are from 1260-1278 A.D. He supposedly was 6 foot 7 inches. His sword is said to be 5 foot 7 inches long. It is not known if he married. Some people say that the reason why he killed a sheriff was that the sheriff killed his wife.
He was a great leader because he believed he could make Scotland an independent nation. He had a fiery vision and a burning idea of a free Scotland. He was also a good military leader. One of the exams of him being a good leader was at the battle of Sterling Bridge. Instead of crossing the bridge, he waited for the English to go over the bridge about three-fourths of the way. The bridge was not very wide, so once they had all crossed they could not retreat. He soundly defeated the English because of this. He also used guerrilla tactics to fight the English. He would engage in small raids and disappear. Most of the time, he did not fight in head-on battles. He was very brace
He changed the history of Scotland because what he did secured Scottish Independence for over 300 years. When he was captured by Edward I, King of England, Wallace was put to death in the worst possible way. It was supposed to make a point. Surprisingly, it made the Scottish and especially Robert Bruce, who was on both sides, go up in arms, and fight for the freedom of Scotland.
William Wallace was not born into a royal family, but he is a hero in Scotland. Freeing Scotland made him extraordinary.


In school they have deadlines. I could spend the next week going over these papers with each of them and have them sounding much, much better. But is that really the right thing to do?? Am I expecting too much?

Christine

choirfarm
11-22-2008, 08:48 AM
When it posted, the boys' paragraphing was lost. They do have paragraphs in their papers.

choirfarm
11-22-2008, 04:40 PM
anyone? ok, awful, just right??

Deece in MN
11-22-2008, 05:07 PM
I am posting a quick reply because I really need to get off of here and get some work done. :)

First off, don't be so hard on yourself or your boys. Overall I think their writing is ok, certainly not awful. Does it need some refinement? Yes. Do they have a good base to work from? Yes. It takes time to get this writing stuff down.

Also, I wanted to say that I wouldn't revise and revise and revise a paper because that will become torture to a kid who may not care for writing in the first place. One revision is enough for most papers at this point. Choose 1 or 2 things to praise about the paper and 1 thing to focus on in the revision that needs improvement. Let all the other mistakes/issues go (though I would point out misspellings or misuse of a word, etc. unless they are excessive and then I would use one of these issues as the focus of the revision).

Don't expect a wonderful paper even after a revision. Writing is a process and they will improve over time. I think we (I am using we to encompass everyone including myself because I need to keep this in mind) need to be careful about our expectations. Set the bar high enough, but not so high they miss because that will cause discouragement. If you want them to get better at writing you need to try and keep the process as enjoyable as possible (giving them a topic they care about or have an interest in is a great way to make writing less painful) otherwise they are not going to want to do it, they are not going to care and their writing won't improve.

Just keep plugging along. :)

Julie in MN
11-23-2008, 02:31 AM
I would just keep them writing, hopefully daily at their ages.

I just listened to a convention CD by Jim Stobaugh that was intriguing. He is on the board of the SAT or some such thing. He really resisted naming curriculum & such, but he said that "format writing gets an automatic 2" or something like that. I thought that was a very intriguing comment which came out spontaneously in answer to a question.

You know, my boys both wrote with their "own style." I would give feedback on grammar details and on whether *I* could understand what they were trying to say. (e.g. your boys' work could be grouped into better paragraphs so I don't get overwhelmed by so many different words!) But otherwise, I tried to let their style be. One wrote long & involved; one is very concise & likes humor.

On the other hand, my daughter stuck to a format, answered the question exactly, used correct grammar, etc. She never scored much above passing on standardized writing tests over at our local public schools, compared to my sons who got good scores...

Just something to think about.

Rose in BC
11-23-2008, 03:08 AM
I would just keep them writing, hopefully daily at their ages.

I just listened to a convention CD by Jim Stobaugh that was intriguing. He is on the board of the SAT or some such thing. He really resisted naming curriculum & such, but he said that "format writing gets an automatic 2" or something like that. I thought that was a very intriguing comment which came out spontaneously in answer to a question.

You know, my boys both wrote with their "own style." I would give feedback on grammar details and on whether *I* could understand what they were trying to say. (e.g. your boys' work could be grouped into better paragraphs so I don't get overwhelmed by so many different words!) But otherwise, I tried to let their style be. One wrote long & involved; one is very concise & likes humor.

On the other hand, my daughter stuck to a format, answered the question exactly, used correct grammar, etc. She never scored much above passing on standardized writing tests over at our local public schools, compared to my sons who got good scores...

Just something to think about.


One of my children is a natural born writer and I can see her scoring well using her own creativity and not format writing. But what about my reluctant writer . . . can I expect more than good "format writing" out of him?

I'm going to mull this over.

Peela
11-23-2008, 08:15 AM
Can I just say that your sons put a lot of detail and information into their writing, which my son- now age 13- does not do. My son waffles so that he can say very little with a lot of words (he is more concerned about filling the half page or whole page I have asked, than doing a good job!). Even though I see that there are issues to work on- they are boys, they are immature, and their writing is very normal and natural for their age, and it will improve- they have a great foundation. I wouldn't pick it all apart.
One thing I learned from Bravewriter was to pick something to work on. With my son at the moment, we are working on "flow". He has a tendency to write many separate choppy sentences when he could write one more interesting one. He is developing a better sense of flow in his writing, because that is what I am focusing on with him. If I was to pick on everything in every assignment, he would become overwhelmed very quickly and "turn off". He is becoming critical of his own writing in a good way- but has a tendency to be over critical of himself so I need to tread a fine line of criticism and encouragement.
I would suggest finding some positive things to say about every writing assignment they do, and then work on one aspect of it. (we still go over basic grammar and spelling after everything else, but we only work on one major issue at a time).
I found their assignments interesting because we are jsut at the same stage in our history, too, and I even know who William Wallace is because we just watched Brave Heart :)