Difficulty learning to factor with Singapore?

[herbalgirl]

I am hoping you ladies can help out here. :) I originally purchased Singapore math Primary 1A and 1B for my 1st grade son. We did some of it, and it seemed okay to him. My husband looked at it, however, and did not like how they make drawings to break the numbers down. (a circle around an 8, then two lines extending out to the right with a 4 and a 4, for example)

My husband believes that this will cause problems with factoring later on, and had us switch to Rod and Staff. I am finding Rod and Staff completely boring, and so is my son. We ordered the first grade, and maybe he should do the 2nd grade, but still, the teacher's book is set up for a classroom and drivers me bonkers.

Can any of you tell me where it is that factoring comes into play in Singapore, so that maybe I can look up a sample on their website? Also, are there any of you who have done Singapore through learning how to factor and have had no problems?

Thanks! :D

[dawn of ns]

My husband believes that this will cause problems with factoring later on

What's his reasoning? I think the concept those diagrams address is fact families. They show how the numbers relate to each other but also how operations, addition/subtraction and multiplication/division, relate to each other. It's a very common construct and not at all unique to Singapore.

We've been using Singapore since grade 3 and my daughter learned to factor without difficulty.

[herbalgirl]

Dawn,

I don't know his reasoning, just that he thinks it will pose problems later on. I told him that Singapore wouldn't thrive as a company if that was the case. He and my son are alike in many ways, so my dh probably sees the explanation as "odd" and figures our son will have a problem... I will have to ask him when he comes home tomorrow night.

It is good to hear that you have not had problems with it! When does Singapore introduce factoring? I am a first time homeschooling mother, and it has been awhile since I did that math, so... I forget!:tongue_smilie:

[Karla in Oregon]

Besides the regular U.S. primary math books, we also have used the newer Extra Practice books, the ones that are now used in California. These taught both the tree method of factoring and the box. My son liked the trees, my daughter the boxes. I wish I could draw a box here, but I will try and type it out:

To factor 24

----------24
--2-------12
--2--------6
--2--------3
--3--------1

You always start with the lowest possible prime and work higher. If you multiply 2x2x2x3 you get 24, but also if you multiply the factors in the lefthand box in all their combinations, you get all the other factors for 24 -- 4 and 8.

I found it interesting because I only learned the tree method. This method seems a little more orderly to me. Factoring has been one of the easier math concepts to learn for my kids, which made it kind of fun.

[LisaK in VA]

My 5th grade son started with SM math, and honestly, the diagrams from 1A/1B showing grouping (which is how many textbooks teach beginning division concepts in the 3rd grade, etc.) did not in any way impact his ability to factor (doing factor trees, etc.). Those two things were never linked in my child's mind.

Personally, it's probably much ado about nothing.

[dhudson]

We used a more traditional math program with our oldest but our twins we have used Singapore. They are the end of 2B and we have found that the twins understood the concepts much quicker than our older son - who is a math guy. We have found that Singapore teaches to understanding not to memorization which I think will lay a better foundation.

We switched our oldest to Singapore in 5th grade and he loves it and says it makes way more sense than the traditional program.

[girligirlmom]

Dawn,

I don't know his reasoning, just that he thinks it will pose problems later on. I told him that Singapore wouldn't thrive as a company if that was the case. He and my son are alike in many ways, so my dh probably sees the explanation as "odd" and figures our son will have a problem... I will have to ask him when he comes home tomorrow night.

It is good to hear that you have not had problems with it! When does Singapore introduce factoring? I am a first time homeschooling mother, and it has been awhile since I did that math, so... I forget!:tongue_smilie:

Not only is Singapore a company, it is a country and this Math program is the one that the country of Singapore uses. It has just been modified/repackaged to include the English system of measurement and some of the children's names have been changed to be more familiar to English speaking children in the U.S. Edition.

I'm mentioning this in case your dh does not have the connection between the name and the Math program. There are times when I read the forums and I learn a lot about something, but I have to remember that my dh never reads any homeschooling forums. It is my job to present the entire picture to him since I may have knowledge in my head that he cannot use to help me make decisions. In my case my dh does step in to decide what we use unless I present him with a problem to solve. He knows I have to live with it day to day so as long as it is a sound program (if it's a program that I'm using), he lets me choose what works best. He just needs to know once in a while that the children are thriving especially since my dh travels, so I make a point of quizzing them on the days learning or I use some other means once in a while so he can see what they have learned.

There are many reasons we prefer SM to others including it's mastery approach, but what got me interested when I started with it in 2003 was the results of the TIMSS tests.

4th graders - Singapore is on top
http://nces.ed.gov/timss/timss03tables.asp?figure=1&Quest=1
8th graders - Singapore is on top
http://nces.ed.gov/timss/timss03tables.asp?figure=5&Quest=5
Not just one year but several
http://nces.ed.gov/timss/timss03tables.asp?figure=7&Quest=7

Here is an interesting video regarding her desire to change the Math curriculum used in the schools in her state. Jump to about 14:30 to see where she recommends Singapore Math.
Math Education: An Inconvenient Truth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1qee-bTZI

FYI my son is nearly finished with 3B. I went ahead and taught him factoring since it made sense when he was trying to figure out the least common denominator. It came easy to him and it just made sense. I really feel that my son has a very good understanding of Math.

I have heard that Rod and Staff is good, but I have also heard/read that it is dry.

[dawn of ns]

Dawn,

I don't know his reasoning, just that he thinks it will pose problems later on. I told him that Singapore wouldn't thrive as a company if that was the case. He and my son are alike in many ways, so my dh probably sees the explanation as "odd" and figures our son will have a problem... I will have to ask him when he comes home tomorrow night.:

I'm wondering if it's simply that it's not what he's familiar with or if he's misunderstood something about it.

According to the scope and sequence (http://www.singaporemath.com/Scope_and_Sequence_s/120.htm)factoring is first covered in 4A. That leaves a large enough gap between the fact families visual and the factoring that I would really think any chance of confusion would be gone.

The other thing about Singapore Math is that it's not just that the company wouldn't sell it if it didn't work but that it used to be the actual curriculum used in Singapore and Singapore consistently tops the TIMMS Mathematics scores (http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2005/timss03/math1.asp). It's also starting to be adopted by school boards in the US and in others, parents pushing for it to replace established curriculum. It's worth an hour or so to google Singapore math. You'll find a lot to reccomend it to your husband. :D

[dawn of ns]

girlgirlmom - looks like we had the same thoughts! :D

[herbalgirl]

Thanks, ladies. I really appreciate all your insight. I agree, it is probably just that I didn't communicate it well enough to him and that it looks different to him.

He mentioned to me on the phone tonight that he wants Matthew to do lots of "rote memorization", flashcards, etc. He wants our son to have the math facts down, etc.

He was pretty firm that he didn't want us to use Singapore, and we bought 1st and 2nd grade Rod and Staff. I think we'll give that a shot and if it doesn't work, hopefully we can check out Singapore again. :)

[LisaK in VA]

Well, there still is some of that flash-card, math facts practice you need to do with Singapore -- it's just not in the textbook or workbook. The assumption is that a teacher in the classroom would do that.

But Singapore focuses more on understanding the whys and hows of mathematics than many other programs -- laying a foundation of understanding among various concepts, instead of treating each one as a separate, individual concept.

[herbalgirl]

I have the Home Teacher Instructor Manuals for both 1A and 1B, so I have been doing a lot of the things in there they recommend-games, flashcards, etc.

I think probably the biggest thing is that dh doesn't see all the day to day goings on of homeschooling. He says I do a good job, but he also really wants our son to be strong in math, as he knows I am not that strong in it. I told my dh that I like Singapore, that it makes sense to me! :001_smile:

[kalanamak]

He says I do a good job, but he also really wants our son to be strong in math, as he knows I am not that strong in it. I told my dh that I like Singapore, that it makes sense to me! :001_smile:

Ask him to take over math.....AKA put up or shut up.

I do flashcards etc. with my son. I'd say I do 2 days Singapore per one day of flashcards and math card games and dice games.

[KAR120C]

We did all of Singapore Primary and the algebra parts of NEM 1 and 2 (and plan to return to NEM next year after a little foray into statistics this year...) and DS never had trouble confusing the number bond pictures with factoring.

We write out our factoring in a format much like the "box" chart that Karla drew.... so it didn't look like the number bonds, but actually I think even if it had it wouldn't have made a difference.

[buddhabelly]

where factoring is introduced (but keep in mind that factoring builds on many other skills). One thing they include in the Guide is an exercise for the child to do involving 24 "linking cubes." The child makes as many rectangles as he can and records the results. The child writes down the dimensions of the sides of the rectangles: 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 12, 24. (If I've already lost you, the child could make a 1 x 24 rectangle, or a 4 x 6 rectangle, and so on.) Then you tell the student that the results are the factorsof 24. Then the child does it more abstractly in the workbook.

The Guide also definesthe word "factor," whereas I don't think the textbook does. There is a paragraph definition of the word that is very clear (must be a whole number, a number can be divided exactly by its factor, with no remainder, etc.) It says that in Primary Math 3 the student learned the term "product." Here the term "factor" is introduced for the first time.

Just thought I'd chime in, because not everyone buys the Home Instructor's Guides.

Julie

[dawn of ns]

I think probably the biggest thing is that dh doesn't see all the day to day goings on of homeschooling. He says I do a good job, but he also really wants our son to be strong in math, as he knows I am not that strong in it. I told my dh that I like Singapore, that it makes sense to me! :001_smile:

I think he's missing something. If you're going to be the primary teacher then you've got to have a curriculum that works for you, not just your son. You could have the best math pogram going but if it doesn't work for you, it will be a flop.

Besides, if you're not good with math but Singapore is making sense for you then that's a good sign. After all, elementary school texts aren't written for people who already know their math.

[nmoira]

My husband looked at it, however, and did not like how they make drawings to break the numbers down. (a circle around an 8, then two lines extending out to the right with a 4 and a 4, for example)

My husband believes that this will cause problems with factoring later onI've been puzzling over this, not sure why. But I cannot understand even why he thinks this unless...

Does he think it will cause problems with factoring because the notation is similar to that he used when learning to factor, with a branching tree format?

[Sandra in FL]

My now 7th grader went through the entire Singapore Primary Math and has a very good grasp of math. She is now thriving in Dolciani's Algebra.

My 4th grader is in 4A (where factoring is done) and doing wonderfully. We do add Keys to Fraction (book 2 has factoring). If anything, SM number bonds makes so much more sense, shows the interrelationship of the numbers and operations and there's less math facts to memorize.

HTH,
Sandra

[herbalgirl]

I've been puzzling over this, not sure why. But I cannot understand even why he thinks this unless...

Does he think it will cause problems with factoring because the notation is similar to that he used when learning to factor, with a branching tree format?


Moira,

I think you have it right. :) I haven't been able to discuss this with my dh much since he's only been home on the weekends for the past 3 weeks and it has been crazy, but I am going to pin him down and really ask him what the deal is. I do want to honor him, but, OTOH, like so many of you have said, it does matter that the curriculum appeals to me as well as my son.

Thankfully, I have not sold off Singapore yet, so maybe we can work this out. :)

[Elohcin]

I have three in Singapore now, 2A, 3A, and almost 5A. We have used it for 5 years now.

My husband has a masters degree in Math and has taught at the college level. He thinks Singapore is great at teaching the concepts necessary for success and loves how it challenges our kids. He especially loves the Challenging Word Problems and the Intensive Practice (much to my kids chagrin).

Now, you do need to add as much rote memorization as your kids need, but that is expected with Singapore. It is a really solid program.

It may be the best program in the world for some, but if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work. Maybe your husband would feel more comfortable with some other program that your son would enjoy?

[kalanamak]

Now, you do need to add as much rote memorization as your kids need, but that is expected with Singapore.


:iagree: It just isn't in the book, page after dull page. I got to the point in the HIG where it said "before you move on kiddo needs to know these facts" followed by a list. I spent the next 4 weeks playing games, doing flashcards, trying different ways of looking at things, etc, with a few days of moving in Singapore 1A's weight, length and shape pages (for a change of pace) until we had what the HIG said we needed to progress. Does he know them all snap! snap! 100% of the time? No, but usually, and we moved on in the book with great sucess.