struggling with Lial's

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

DS13 is math bright, but is struggling with Lial's Introductory Algebra. I think it might be "visual". He sees a large number of problems and is overwhelmed. I usually assign 10 to 20 problems per day, but he still is a bit taken back by all the problems. (I had the same situation with BCM and a dd a few years ago).

I told him that we would work through the first several chapters and gauge how it is working/not working. He understands the concepts when we work side by side. He misses a few problems when working on his own. He has bombed every test/quiz.

If you switched from Lial's, what would you switch to?

What is the best way to adjust Lial's to make it work better?

TIA,
Pam L

[Michelle in MO]

DS13 is math bright, but is struggling with Lial's Introductory Algebra. I think it might be "visual". He sees a large number of problems and is overwhelmed. I usually assign 10 to 20 problems per day, but he still is a bit taken back by all the problems. (I had the same situation with BCM and a dd a few years ago).

I told him that we would work through the first several chapters and gauge how it is working/not working. He understands the concepts when we work side by side. He misses a few problems when working on his own. He has bombed every test/quiz.

If you switched from Lial's, what would you switch to?

What is the best way to adjust Lial's to make it work better?

TIA,
Pam L

Introductory Algebra twice (for my oldest and middle daughters) and Lial's Intermediate Algebra once (for the oldest). The problem could be visual; the Lial's text was written as a remedial algebra text for college students. Our community college uses the Lial's series, from BCM up through at least the Intermediate text and I believe also their precalculus text. The chapters are large; indeed, each section contains many sample problems. The word problems can be challenging

First of all, if you continue to use the Lial's text, doing 10-20 problems a day may be sufficient, but I would assign at least all of the odd problems. That's how many homeschoolers work through the text, because the student solutions manual covers that many problems. So, depending on the number of problems, it may take you 3 days or so to complete a section. I would think 20 problems would be a more "average" number to assign.

Secondly, the fact that you're working through the text with your son is very helpful. There are also DVT's (digital video tutors---like a DVD, but plays like a CD-ROM in your computer drive) available with a teacher teaching the lessons. They may also be helpful for the explanations.

Back to the text: I would have him read through approximately half of a section, and then do the associated problems with that portion of the section. For example, Section 2.3 in a book (I'm pulling this out of my head; I don't have the book in front of me) might contain 5-6 concepts that they are trying to cover. I would have him read half of those concepts and problems. Then, in the exercises, note above each section of the Exercises that it'll read in parentheses: "See Examples 1 and 2" or "See Examples 3 through 5". So, make sure he reads just that portion of the text and then does all the associated problems in the exercises. That might make the whole visual thing a little less confusing for him.

As far as switching to a different text, my oldest used Chalkdust last year for Geometry. Although I didn't like the text as well as Lial's, because for my tastes it seemed almost simplistic compared to Lial's, nevertheless it worked well for her, which is what counts. On top of that, Dana Moseley's teaching is superior to anything I've seen on the Lial's DVT's, so most of the lesson is learned through watching his instruction. However, there is definite benefit in learning to read a math text! The Chalkdust series uses the Larson books. For your son, the Larson text may be less overwhelming. If you go to this page for Algebra I (http://www.chalkdust.com/algone.html) and browse around, you should be able to find most of the information you need.

Good luck! We are very fortunate to have some math-minded moms on these boards! (Not talking about myself here, though!)

[Cinder]

I started ds (13 yo) with Lial's and we got up to chapter 5 but it was a struggle most of the way. When he really really focused he'd do ok. But it was still kind of painful. We switched to Jacob's AND dh took over teaching. He started at the beginning even though there was a bit of review. Ds is doing much better with the Jacob's format--it's not so overwhelming.

[matroyshka]

I have not used Lial's, but I got a library copy to review, as I'd heard so many wonderful things about it.

I have to say that I was completely visually overwhelmed. Just looking at it, there were so many colors and fonts and the problems in the margins, no white space to be found - my eye couldn't even figure out where to rest. It may be a wonderful text mathematically, and for some kinds of learners this type of layout may even be an advantage, but it was very hard for me to parse.

I didn't even realize what my problem with it was until I got a review copy of Foerster's, and almost sighed with relief at the two-color text with no side boxes and plenty of white space.

Again, I haven't used it yet, but I've decided I can't teach a text that almost makes me dizzy just looking at it. I have no idea if this is related to your ds' problem, just pointing out that if he is overwhelmed by the layout, he's not alone. And there are other highly regarded texts that have a more straightforward layout - maybe you could have him preview a couple to see if he seems less overwhelmed?

[mooooom]

My kids couldn't deal with the humungous lessons - even when I broke them down and told them exactly which problems to do. It was visually and mentally overwhelming.

[Jane in NC]

My kids couldn't deal with the humungous lessons - even when I broke them down and told them exactly which problems to do. It was visually and mentally overwhelming.

I used Lial's while teaching remedial math at the CC. Those "humungous" lessons are designed for older students who meet for class twice a week or who work at their own pace, having seen this material previously.

While Lial's is effective for some homeschoolers, I find many have a challenge with the transition in the material around chapter five of Algebra. There is a cognitive leap that high schoolers often do not make. This is not to say that Lial's cannot work--it clearly has for some. I am just not convinced that this is the best choice for an introductory text.

Jane

[Pamela H in Texas]

I liked Lial's with my daughter and I was sure we'd use it for my ds. However, he started Algebra with the virtual academy and they use Dolciani (which is what my dd's first algebra book had been and I've heard great things on here about it so I felt good about it). He's doing EXTREMELY well and RARELY needs my help. There also have been NO tears with math this year (a new situation).

Anyway, just a thought.

[Jann in TX]

I have not used Lial's, but I got a library copy to review, as I'd heard so many wonderful things about it.

I have to say that I was completely visually overwhelmed. Just looking at it, there were so many colors and fonts and the problems in the margins, no white space to be found - my eye couldn't even figure out where to rest. It may be a wonderful text mathematically, and for some kinds of learners this type of layout may even be an advantage, but it was very hard for me to parse.

I didn't even realize what my problem with it was until I got a review copy of Foerster's, and almost sighed with relief at the two-color text with no side boxes and plenty of white space.

Again, I haven't used it yet, but I've decided I can't teach a text that almost makes me dizzy just looking at it. I have no idea if this is related to your ds' problem, just pointing out that if he is overwhelmed by the layout, he's not alone. And there are other highly regarded texts that have a more straightforward layout - maybe you could have him preview a couple to see if he seems less overwhelmed?

I prefer the 7th or 8th edition of the paperback series that is titled Introductory Algebra (Algebra 1) and Intermediate Algebra (Algebra 2) They are the 2002 and 2005 editions.

The page layout is GREAT. 9X11 pages, nice large font, very organized. Color only used as accents within the problem I WOULD NEVER CALL IT COLORFUL as it is 90% black and white! The proof/reason for each step written out to the side in the examples. Practice problems with space to work them in the margins... Other than the fact that the lesson is so spread out that it often takes more than 4 pages--and the homework spread out over 2-3. The problems in the homework section are also SPREAD OUT--the spacing really helps my dd who has some visual tracking issues. I think the texts are visually pleasing.

With most other Algebra texts the lesson is CONDENSED--a teacher is expected to fill in the lesson and the text is for a 'refresher' after the class. With Lial ALL of the teaching is in the student text--so there are MORE examples.

Lial's was also written for BLOCK schedules--each lesson was designed to be worked over 2-3 days. The lessons are VERY EASY to split into sections. Expect 15-20 problems per day--working the ODDS only.

I always assign ALL of the chapter review problems--up to the "Mixed Review" section--and I spread out that assignment over 2-3 days--usually 3.

Lial has SEVERAL math series out. I have an OLD copy of one of her first ones--the font is so TINY and the book is too--Visually I could not use it.

While these texts are used in community colleges the concepts included ARE NOT COLLEGE LEVEL. In fact you will find more difficult word problems in Foerster or Larson texts. In the case of BCM the word/application problems were worded for the interests of older students--but my dd who attended PS worked out similar problems in her Pre-Algebra class. I also have a HUGE collection of Math texts--as I've been teaching for nearly 25 years. These texts are right in line with the better PS texts--and in many ways they are better because the teaching is in the book.

I don't think Lial is necessarily/always the 'best' program--But it is a VERY GOOD ONE. I Love the fact that we--especially homeschoolers--have a CHOICE of programs that we can tailor to our student's needs. I've been able to use this program with students that have learning disabilities and with honors students. Any text that is EASY to adapt to so many levels and learning styles is a good text IMHO.

[matroyshka]

I prefer the 7th or 8th edition of the paperback series that is titled Introductory Algebra (Algebra 1) and Intermediate Algebra (Algebra 2) They are the 2002 and 2005 editions.

The page layout is GREAT. 9X11 pages, nice large font, very organized. Color only used as accents within the problem I WOULD NEVER CALL IT COLORFUL as it is 90% black and white!

LOL, Jann, that is the thing with different processing styles! The book I had was the 8th edition of the paperback series, the very one you recommend (I made sure I got that one, I have really taken your posts to heart, and do really respect your opinion :)).

But for me, it is colorful and cluttered, even if 90% of it is black. The margins where the practice problems are has a pale yellow background. Just the fact that the margins have text in them at all instead of white space distracts me. The overall book is printed 4-color, and frequently in the sample problems they highlight various steps by printing parts of the problem in red or green (or maybe blue, I gave the book back). But it was at least 3 colors including black. There are little blue arrows pointing you to what problem sets to try after reading a certain section, which are not in line with the text. I can't stand text boxes and being pointed all over - I much prefer texts where everything can be read in sequence and not "look here, now look over here".

This is all probably transparent for some and maybe even helpful for others, but for me it was overwhelming. Just different visual processing styles. No disrepect for the book. Just wanted to let OP know that it could be her ds is having a reaction similar to mine.

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

I have the 7th edition. Just reading these opinions is helping me.
Thanks everyone... Keep the posts coming over the next day or two please.

[langfam]

With so many different learning styles, what's a poor mom to do? For instance, DD loves Dana Mosley of Chalkdust but absolutely hates the Larson Precalculus textbook. DS hated the "wordiness" of Jacob's Algebra, but loves the Chalkdust's Larson Algebra texts. What works for one child doesn't always work for another. It's mind-boggling!

[matroyshka]

With so many different learning styles, what's a poor mom to do? For instance, DD loves Dana Mosley of Chalkdust but absolutely hates the Larson Precalculus textbook. DS hated the "wordiness" of Jacob's Algebra, but loves the Chalkdust's Larson Algebra texts. What works for one child doesn't always work for another. It's mind-boggling!

Very mind-boggling! I have twins and there's a 99% chance that I'll have them in two completely different Algebra programs for this reason. Argh.

[Alyce]

My ds is using Lial's Intermediate Alg and is doing very well. There is one place that bothers him but we've worked through it. My son doesn't find it overwhelming and in fact won't break it down. He wants to do all of the lesson first and the all of the practice problems. I've encouraged him several times to break it down after several people here have given that advice. He still insists on doing it his way and is actually succeeding with it. Like Jann has recommended I only do the odd number problems for the lesson exercises and I assign all of the review exercises. The Solution guide has the answers this way and since I'm not good in math that's what I have to use. We love the way the solution manual has the steps broken down. When we've hit hard spots we've looked at the Guide and it has helped a great deal.

[ma23peas]

I have to say that I was completely visually overwhelmed. Just looking at it, there were so many colors and fonts and the problems in the margins, no white space to be found - my eye couldn't even figure out where to rest.
I didn't even realize what my problem with it was until I got a review copy of Foerster's, and almost sighed with relief at the two-color text with no side boxes and plenty of white space.



Thanks for posting that Foerster's is not so visually mangled! I found the same thing with a copy of Jacob's I saw at a book store....there is no way my son could have focused on the problems...I ended up buying Life of Fred and we don't plan on starting it until January but already my son really is engaged by it. A friend's son was struggling with Abeka Algebra and she was desperate to try something else, she is using mine until we need it and said so far it's a hit with her son...based on only those two facts, that it's not loaded down with visual overload and my friend's praise..I'd say give it a try...I've parsed through the books (both Algebra) and think that I'd like to get him a secondary book to offer additional problems...but I won't know until we get into it...Foerster's sounds like an option for us for that.

Thanks!
Tara