Kids acting as if parents should be "available" 24/7........

[Joanne]

Since I've started going out regularly with my DH a couple of nights a week, a dynamic with my kids has been made apparent.

They think I should be/am available and accessible 24/7 to them.

I think it's multi-caused:

1) An xh (their Dad) who did not value my need to have kid free time. He also insisted on immediate phone access to me, used that access often and expected me to drop whatever I was doing to listen to him. Drop everything; including a daycare of 6+ preschoolers.

2) Cell phones.

3) A lack of experiential understanding that I spend more time with my kids than more than 95% of families of school aged children.

4) A lack of absolute boundaries and clear instructions. Partly inspired by fear of the xh.

I remember when I was a babysitter. This would have been late '70's early '80's. The parents might, if they were so inclined, tell me what movie, restaurant or home they were going to. Often, they simply said "Bye, we'll be home by midnight" and were off. :rolleyes:

Here comes my hopefully needless justification:

My kids are old enough to handle being home if we go out. They are informed, trained, we have a written and explained contract on appropriate behavior and how the house should be handled.

I spent the first 10 years of parenting without appropriate breaks, without real nurture of self or marriage.

I am with my kids, except every other weekend and poker nights 24/7 unless it is a child centered activity such as youth group, YMCA classes (and even there, I am in the building), skatepark, parties they attend.

It's been building; I have felt resentful and smothered and under appreciated that I can't *go* without a call about some form of tattling, a stupid question, "I just called to see how you were doing".

So..........

The first question is general: Do you perceive a change in what you consider to be the acceptable and expected level of accessibility?

The second is more specific: Do you have similar feelings and experiences with your kids. Assuming you want time away and "space" and "breathing room", how have you made that happen?

[Amy loves Bud]

Well, I like to shower alone. They know that unless someone is bleeding or unconscious not to interrupt my shower :rolleyes:. Beyond that, I wish I could help you, but I got nothin'.

[Rhondabee]

but, in your family, *you* have changed the expectations of how much mom is available. Your kids might just need some more time to adjust.

Maybe (due to the fear of xh you mentioned), they are testing you. "Will she *really* answer if I call and I *really* need her?" So, take those calls graciously and with a quick, "I'm fine! Everything all right there? OK, Love ya, Bye!"

And, my boys are now 13 and 10 (and dd is 2). I can see that they are struggling with wanting to be grown-up, and yet, not wanting to mess up. Maybe your oldest two are going through some of those same things. It's a hard age.

Don't think you have to change anything. Once they see this is the new reality, they'll adjust. Just hold their hands through these changes, and trust that if there is a real problem that is occuring in your absence, you mom-sense will find it out and deal with it.

[Cadam]

My kids are not old enough for this yet but ya, I feel smothered at times. I think you should tell them you will only be avalible by cell phone in the event of blood or fire and then state the consequences for not respecting that boundary.

[Scarlett]

I mainly feel it when I am trying to concentrate on something (like taxes or an important post on WTM boards:)) and ds7 is tugging tugging tugging on me (literally). I guess this is pay back because I was/am this exact same way to my mom. On a good day, I calmly say, 'ds, I have to be able to concentrate on this, I cannot give you any attention right now.' Bad days, 'I say, 'go away! I'm trying to think!'

My ds was so long coming, is so much a joy to me and I'm so sad that I only got one child that I often find myself ignoring the little part of me that needs 'alone' time.

But yeah...I think we can easily justify some seperation. Especially the ages of yours Joanne.

[chiguirre]

Well, I'm where you were several years ago. I don't get much time alone, my kids are high maintenance and it's hard to find someone to stay with them. My mother and mil can't handle babysitting them, so I really mean it when I say it's hard. I can totally relate to your desperate need to get away. But your oldest is only 12. That's old enough to stay home alone once in a while, but several nights a week might be too much right now. Could you cut back to one night a week out with dh for the next few months? Once that's totally okay with the kids, you could up it to twice.

To put this in another light, my parents didn't let me stay alone until I was 12 and even then it was for an hour or two max every few months. I didn't stay with my sister until she was 12 as well. I did babysit other people's kids by the time I was 14, so it did ramp up fairly quickly but it started out slow.

On the bright side, your kids will get up to speed on this in a year or two. Lots of moms will never be able to leave their special needs kids alone. Hang in there a bit longer!

[Mama Lynx]

... my kids do call me when I'm out without them. It's never bothered me. It's never occurred to me that this might be a problem with them not knowing how to cope out of contact with Mom and Dad. I'll have to think about that.

DH and I talk to each other frequently throughout the day, and I hate being unable to reach him. If I know in advance that he'll be out of pocket (a meeting, travelling, whatever) then I'm fine, no problem. But if I don't know and just can't get hold of him, I may well end up a basket case.

My kids call for silly things, like "Can I have computer time?" But that's because they really have not figured out that if Mom is not there, they can have computer time and no one would ever know. Since I'm not about to explain that to them, I love that they call for that. And often, *I* will call *them*, to make sure all is well - but I think my kids are a bit younger than yours, Joanne.

When I am home and on the computer, the phone, or in the bathroom, or otherwise trying to do my work and take my own space, *then* their inability/refusal to leave me alone leads to me feeling irritated, angry and resentful.

[jmgconner]

Oh, I hear ya loud and clear! My DS, now 12, whom we left with Grandma, would call every. single. time. DH and I went out on a date. "Mom, I can't find my retainer." "Mom, can I watch so and so?" "Mom, my ballooned popped."

Just sitting down with him and explaining that just because he can reach my by phone does not mean he should. We went over good reasons to call, and silly reasons to call. I tried to explain to him that this was special Mommy time and that I would be a much happier Mom if he wasn't interrupting my Mommy time... LOL! It seemed to work, although I still have to remind him every once in a while.

I also think RhondaBee might be on to something - testing to make sure that you're really there. :)

[Joanne]

But your oldest is only 12. That's old enough to stay home alone once in a while, but several nights a week might be too much right now. Could you cut back to one night a week out with dh for the next few months? Once that's totally okay with the kids, you could up it to twice.


Look, not to be nitpicky and defensive, but I'm going to be nitpicky and defensive anyway.

My oldest will be 13 in 7 weeks. I think that 13, 11 and 9 are plenty old enough to be away from me, unsupervised, more than once a week. After a day of being next to, near, hugging on, learning with and from, cuddled, chauffered, watered and fed.

Considering there are families who start leaving their double digit-ed kids alone after school five days a week to avoid daycare costs, that most kids are away from parents at least 8 - 4.

When I look at my color coded schedule including nightime activities for 3 kids, we handle - personally - 2-4 practices a week, chauffering to youth group and other activities. There is very little white space on my calendar. Nights we are home are filled with games together or intentional tv/entertainment and eating meals together. Indeed, even on the nights we go out, we cook and eat together. My DH is coaching my youngest's baseball team (and coached my oldest's in the fall). He's at practice now with my oldest while I am here with the younger 2.

Waiting until it's ok with them would not be a good choice in this home. It would be moving backwards in many ways.

[chiguirre]

If you don't want to cut back on nights out, I'd silence my cell phone. Teach them to text message in case of an emergency.

Good luck!

[WTMCassandra]

One of my friends struggles with this. And from what I saw in her home, I made some adjustments over the last few years.

I really try to balance this and not use it too much, but sometimes I'll say: "My ears are full now." or "No, go ask your Dad, I'm off-duty now." or "This is not a good time." My children also know that during morning recess (15-30 minutes), they should not bug me unless there is blood. It's *my* recess too.

I think part of it is slow training to see that I'm a person, that I have needs too. It's good for them to know that and helps them be less self-focused.

If I were you, I would start "being unavailable" at home for brief periods. Perhaps this would be a good training ground for when you go out. If I were you and fielding lots of cell calls, I might make two lists: (1) Appropriate reasons to call Mom and (2) Inappropriate reasons to call Mom. I would go over it with them, and if they call for an inappropriate reason, I would say nicely but firmly, "Sorry, that's not an appropriate reason to call. I'll see you at xxxx when I get home." And if they still kept doing it I might fine them to help pay for my cell minutes ; ).

Another option, or an additional option, is to plan their time before you go out. Go over with each child briefly what they should be doing while you are gone. (Perhaps they are bored and don't know what to do?)

Hope this helps a little.

[Scarlett]

I thought your question was more about 'is this an unreasonable request of mine' (getting away without your children having to call you and tattle on each other or check up on you) more than are your kids old enough to be left alone...Anyway, at the ages of your kids, I say go out and enjoy yourself. They will be fine without hearing your voice for several hours.

[Rhondabee]

Look, not to be nitpicky and defensive, but I'm going to be nitpicky and defensive anyway.

My oldest will be 13 in 7 weeks. I think that 13, 11 and 9 are plenty old enough to be away from me, unsupervised, more than once a week. After a day of being next to, near, hugging on, learning with and from, cuddled, chauffered, watered and fed.

Considering there are families who start leaving their double digit-ed kids alone after school five days a week to avoid daycare costs, that most kids are away from parents at least 8 - 4.

When I look at my color coded schedule including nightime activities for 3 kids, we handle - personally - 2-4 practices a week, chauffering to youth group and other activities. There is very little white space on my calendar. Nights we are home are filled with games together or intentional tv/entertainment and eating meals together. Indeed, even on the nights we go out, we cook and eat together. My DH is coaching my youngest's baseball team (and coached my oldest's in the fall). He's at practice now with my oldest while I am here with the younger 2.

Waiting until it's ok with them would not be a good choice in this home. It would be moving backwards in many ways.


One reason why I didn't list how I handled "time out with dh" is that we rarely go out. BUT, we only have two nights scheduled (well, 3 including Sunday). On Tues and Thurs dh takes sons to Akido and I usually stay home with dd, or run a small errand. (That's my I'm-the-only-introvert-here-so-leave-me-alone-and-let-me-veg time.)

All other nights are "Down Time". Not filled with games together or intentional TV (though we do eat together). But, just hang out and be relaxed and everybody does his/her or "his and her" own thing time. So, I don't feel any sort of need to have "date nights" (but then, we no longer qualify as newly-weds, either - LOL!).

Every family is so very different. And, as I said above, I certainly don't think you need to change your going out. It's certainly acceptable for you to keep the scheduled family times as you have them. But, I wonder if you cut back and had some more "do nothing" time at home if that would lessen your feelings of being restricted and frustrated with a lack of personal time.

(gently) It just really doesn't matter what everybody else does with their kids. Your kids are obviously important to you, but something's gotta give somewhere. One thing that bothers me is that something is making you really sound not quite yourself. I can't think of a time when I've really disagreed with your parenting tone....I'm not saying I'm disagreeing with what you're saying, just that in this thread, something seems different.

[Joanne]

But, I wonder if you cut back and had some more "do nothing" time at home if that would lessen your feelings of being restricted and frustrated with a lack of personal time.

I hear you. It's seasonal. Baseball season in the fall is about 2 months including the pre-game practice time. Baseball season in the Spring is more intense; about 3 months. We get more "do nothing" time in between baseball seasons.

Our favorite do nothing time is usually spent in paralell, co existing activities.

(gently) It just really doesn't matter what everybody else does with their kids. Your kids are obviously important to you, but something's gotta give somewhere. One thing that bothers me is that something is making you really sound not quite yourself. I can't think of a time when I've really disagreed with your parenting tone....I'm not saying I'm disagreeing with what you're saying, just that in this thread, something seems different.

It's the intensity of my feelings combined with the topic. It's rare that I would argue for less connection. ;) This particular topic started to become an issue for me a couple of years ago on my 40th birthday. It was the end of my marriage; my sisters had come in for my 40th. I made plans for going out with them - alone - and my dd had a meltdown. This, after plenty of Aunt/Mom time, after doing things together. She had not awareness of or respect for my right to have sister (they live far away) time. My xh, who was still here at the time (it was out last month together) didn't back me up at all.

Since then, I've seen signs of my children not seeing me as a person beyond mom/teacher and certainly not having needs/rights separate from them.

It's vestiges of being drained and the results of not having had appropriate, healthy boundaries.

(Note: I do not mean to suggest or imply that my attachment style of parenting is to blame. My issues are not caused by AP but by dysfunction).

[JennifersLost]

something like this comes up - a situation where I feel that what I'm asking is reasonable but I feel guilty for enforcing it, I ask myself, "What precedent am I setting?"

See, I figure my kids are probably going to fall into doing things "my way" when they have kids of their own. In other words, they will celebrate Christmas like I do - spending a ton and going into debt if that's what I do, or spending a reasonable amount and not going into debt if that's what I do. So at Christmas time when their piles of gifts seem "too small" I picture them twenty years from now on Christmas eve getting things ready for their kids and I feel much better. I don't want them to feel compelled to go into debt every Christmas to re-create the Christmases they had as kids.

The same goes for nights out away from them. Twenty years from now do you want your children ridden with guilt every time they leave their kids at home? Or do you want them to know that getting a break is quite all right?

I have a feeling it will be the latter. Having said that, now you have to be consistent. Sit the kids down beforehand, tell them your expectations: "I expect you to call if someone gets hurt. I don't expect you to call just to check in. That makes me feel....." (Fill in the blank).

My parents hardly ever got to go out because we four kids I guess acted up when they were gone. The boys got in trouble, my sister got stomach-aches, etc. I think my parents' marriage and social lives really suffered from this.

These days my oldest baby-sits the rest when we go out. I have one child who is a potential trouble-maker during that kind of thing, so we let him know loud and clear that if there was trouble, life was going to get fairly miserable for him. He did act out once and the next day dh kept him by his side, washing walls, scrubbing tubs and missing a sunny day to be inside working. That was the last time we had any problems, LOL.

While we're gone we set up the youngest with appropriate movies to watch and the others have computer time. That pretty much keeps them busy, anyway.

HTH!

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

My oldest will be 13 in 7 weeks. I think that 13, 11 and 9 are plenty old enough to be away from me, unsupervised, more than once a week. After a day of being next to, near, hugging on, learning with and from, cuddled, chauffered, watered and fed.

Considering there are families who start leaving their double digit-ed kids alone after school five days a week to avoid daycare costs, that most kids are away from parents at least 8 - 4.

Waiting until it's ok with them would not be a good choice in this home. It would be moving backwards in many ways.

I think it's old enough, too, but I guess the bigger question is, are THEY ready to be left alone, unsupervised, more than once a week? If they are reacting this way, they may be telling you loud and clear that they do not FEEL ready. Just like the 4 y/o who is "old enough" to use markers properly, but is clearly NOT old enough because she keeps writing on the walls or leaving the tops off for them to dry up. She may need 1) to get older and more responsible and/or 2) more training and gentle, consistent enforcement of rules.

Is there something you can do, training-wise, to empower them to be not only chronologically ready but to feel secure and strong and truly emotionally ready?

I just want you to know that in saying this I do hear you and I do empathize with you. Sometimes all that togetherness gets almost physical, and you just want to scream STOP TOUCHING ME! Even if nobody is. I think it's the reason some women simply cannot breastfeed. The feeling of the walls closing in and everyone touching them and wanting a piece of them All. The. Time is just overwhelming and crazy-making.

[gardenschooler]

My oldest will be 13 in 7 weeks. I think that 13, 11 and 9 are plenty old enough to be away from me, unsupervised, more than once a week. After a day of being next to, near, hugging on, learning with and from, cuddled, chauffered, watered and fed.

Mine were close to these ages when I finally started going out without them. Actually, they were 13, 11, and 7. We had never had money for a regular babysitter for me to be able to go out without them before. We did it, but it was very rare (a few times a year). I was a 24/7 mom - not balanced with any time of my own out of the house, so my kids were just not used to that. Dh works long hours, even on the weekends, so they weren't even used to having another 'go to' parent much of the time. When they did spend time with dh, I collapsed in exhaustion, usually, instead of going out. I know they never imagined I was a real person who might have a reason to socialize without them.

When my oldest had shown that she could stay by herself for short spurts of time around age 12, we gradually moved towards letting the three of them stay at home alone, with the oldest in charge. I figured someone had to be in charge, otherwise it would be a free-for-all. This just created more problems with fighting and tattling, though, so I quickly changed that.

At first, I got all sorts of tattling phone calls and silly questions. I think it really may be a sense of feeling you out and getting used to being on their own. After a little while, though, I came down pretty hard on the pestering phone calls. I felt pretty resentful about it, too.

I pretty much told them in no uncertain terms that if it didn't stop, I was going to call them non-stop the next time they were out with their friends! Probably a little harsh for your tastes, but it worked. Now I worry because they hardly ever call me when I'm out!

[Joanne]

When my oldest had shown that she could stay by herself for short spurts of time around age 12, we gradually moved towards letting the three of them stay at home alone, with the oldest in charge. I figured someone had to be in charge, otherwise it would be a free-for-all. This just created more problems with fighting and tattling, though, so I quickly changed that.

I'm smiling. We put the oldest in charge to start with, too. And quickly changed it to everyone being the boss of themselves. :D That, in combination with the contract for who does what and how the house must look for me not to wake you up when I get home made things better.

At first, I got all sorts of tattling phone calls and silly questions. I think it really may be a sense of feeling you out and getting used to being on their own. After a little while, though, I came down pretty hard on the pestering phone calls. I felt pretty resentful about it, too.

Thank you for sharing that similar experience. It helps a lot. Especially knowing that you *felt* the same way!

I pretty much told them in no uncertain terms that if it didn't stop, I was going to call them non-stop the next time they were out with their friends! Probably a little harsh for your tastes, but it worked. Now I worry because they hardly ever call me when I'm out!

Oh, don't mistake my non punitive approach with lack of firm and even stern. :p I would consider that as a tool.

[Susan in TX]

I'd consider leaving my cell phone at home the next time I went out with DH. Is there someone else they could call if there is an emergency? Otherwise, I'd just make it VERY clear that they are not to call unless it is an emergency and then provide some sort of unpleasant consequences if they don't respect your wishes.

One other idea is to threaten to get them a babysitter.

Susan in TX

[WTMCassandra]

If this were a typical situation, I would agree with you. However, Joanne's children (and Joanne, of course) have been through a LOT in the last few years. That is why I'm suggesting a more step-by-step approach. Joanne has done an admirable job with her children, but there has been serious unrest in their lives, and I'm thinking it would be wise to take that into account. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm not sure it would be wise to jump from where they are now to that. I'm thinking "baby steps."

[Free Indeed]

. They are informed, trained, we have a written and explained contract on appropriate behavior and how the house should be handled.



I really do not have any great advice, except I agree that if things have been in turmoil they may need a bit more reassurance/security that calling you provides. Maybe tell them that YOU will call them to check in periodically and to only call you in case of emergency? I was wondering if you could tell me more about your contract thing because that sounds very interesting. ;)

[Paz]

As I am reading this thread my 18 yo ds asks me to help him pack for his weekend trip. My 15 yo dd follows me around the house continually. "Please leave, I am going to go to the bathroom." is something I say on a daily basis. LOL! My kids love spending time with me, which is a good thing, they are very independent if they need to be. I just need to do a better job on setting boundaries and making it clear when I need my spacel.

[Julie in CA]

I know that your parenting style and mine differ a bit, but I thought I'd still go ahead and offer another perspective (mine :)).
While I understand your feelings about going out with the new dh, it seems possible that your kids need a bit more time to adjust to all of the changes in their lives. Even if your new husband is wonderful to them, it may seem to your dc that you're choosing time with him instead of time with them, even if your kids don't consciously identify their feelings as jealousy. You've done a lot of sacrificing, but your kids may not be quite as ready as you are to move on yet.
Even if you feel that I'm way off-base about that, my other thought is that two nights a week is more than most married-with-kids folks take for themselves. Your kids still seem a bit young for you to be away that much in the evening. Many families would not leave kids your kids' ages quite that often.
In short, I think you just have to hold out a bit longer. This (in my mind) falls under the "seasons of life" thing. Before you know it, your kids will be full-on teens, and it'll be them leaving too often, and you calling them "just because."
Wishing you all the best, especially on those nights you do get out! :)
~Julie~

[Colleen]

nt

[Anna]

They are informed, trained, we have a written and explained contract on appropriate behavior and how the house should be handled.

It's been building; I have felt resentful and smothered and under appreciated that I can't *go* without a call about some form of tattling, a stupid question, "I just called to see how you were doing".

Do you perceive a change in what you consider to be the acceptable and expected level of accessibility?

Do you have similar feelings and experiences with your kids. Assuming you want time away and "space" and "breathing room", how have you made that happen?

Joanne,

Obviously, if your kids are still calling to tattle or ask stupid questions, they need more training. We hit a change when our oldest was about 10-12yo so we developed a transitional plan to *gradually* teach them how to be home alone. You know, baby steps.

At ages 13, 11 and 9, once you train them to call ICE only (in case of emergency) they should be fine. Only exception I'd make regardless of age is when one is dealing with limiting emotional or medical disorders/diseases. Like in my case, youngest dc was/is insulin dependent diabetic. We waited until oldest was about 15 before leaving her home alone to be responsible for overseeing younger sister's diabetes care while dh and I would be on a date.

Good for you to be taking the initiative for finding "alone time" for you and dh. The relationship between dh and dw should come first. Many homeschooling couples, yes, even Christian couples, are ending in divorce today at about the same rate as non-homeschooling couples because nobody makes time to tend to the fires of marriage. Their homeschooled kids ALWAYS had to come first. You know this. I'm mentioning it for other Christian readers to ponder. I applaud what you're doing.

Take some time to train your dc to learn what are the appropriate situations that you would want/not want them to call you. Only recently, my dh and I waited until oldest dd was 20yo, youngest was 17yo before we finally felt safe enough to go away (in our town) a few times a year for a romantic hotel night. Again, diabetes care was the deciding factor for us.

Before they become adults, kids need to understand that parents love them but that they (parents) have their own dh/dw relationship to nurture as well. Otherwise, how else will they understand the importance of keeping the marriage fires stoked if/when they become married. As a Christian couple my dh and I believe that our order of priority list for nurturing relationships looks like this:

1st- love of God
2nd- caring for relationship with spouse
3rd- caring for relationship with kids
4th- others

Sorry, this was more than you asked but I'm feeling especially long-winded this morning. Lucky you;):D

[Anna]

Oh, and one more thing....

When I first began leaving kids alone for brief errands, I made a point of always giving them non-urgent phone calls while I was out. The method to my madness:rolleyes: was to allow them time to be on the receiving end of the stupid phone calls. By the time dh and I began going on dates while kids were home alone, they understood really well how it feels to be interrupted for foolishness.

I know, I know, the board fairy is wicked:p

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Joanne, I've been thinking about your questions and your situation for some hours now. Off and on. Not constantly, lest you feel my attention to be creepy. LOL

I've been thinking about a couple of things you said. One was something to the effect "if they don't want to be awakened" to clean -- that is, they left the house a mess before going to bed.

That jumped out at me because it means that the kids are staying home long enough in the evening to get themselves into *bed* a couple of times a week. Just thinking about that gave me a hint as to what might be going on. Even as a grown woman, there are times that I just crave another adult in the house before sleeping. When dh was TDY or deployed, there was a different "feel" to being alone in the evening. The feeling wasn't there in the morning, but the vulnerability of the nighttime was there. I was a big girl and handled it, but I wasn't 13, 11, or 9, either.

I will grant you that I'm not carrying your burdens, and I don't pretend to have done so. But I will say that if you were gone the same hours in the morning that you are in the evening, your responsible children might have different reactions to your absence. Going to bed alone, particularly in light of what movies you said the ex-jerkface has shown your kids, might be stressful more than they will admit. We've always made a policy that date nights will end before the eldest's bedtime, by at least an hour or half hour. The eldest might "put" the younger to bed, but not everyone is asleep in the house without an adult home. If all the kids go to bed at the same time, then we're home before anyone turns in. Inconvenient, sure. But secure-making.

We've done Saturday morning dates before -- leave the kids to cartoons and cereal and/or some sleeping in. Same number of hours, still 7-12 maybe, but daylight rather than night. Afternoon, ditto.

If I had to put food on the table and my kids had to get themselves to bed two or three nights per week, well, that would just be The Way Things Are and they would adapt. Though honestly, at their ages, I would try my level best to have an adult around for evenings. I remember that the best trouble I ever got into was when I was older and "responsible" in the eyes of adults and, yeah, even when I was directly responsible for littler people. I operate with the principle that a child left to himself has at least the potential of bringing his mother to shame, to paraphrase Solomon. And I wouldn't, I have to say, leave them a couple of times a week. Once every three as a treat to all of us, sure. Not that often at night, though, and particularly if they were "telling" me that they were not handling this well.

Take this or leave it, of course, and there's always that handy dandy "ignore" button :) if you need it. My heart was burdened for you and yours last night. I think of you often and hope for life's very best for you and your precious kiddos. You've helped me sooo much, more than you'll ever directly know, in the past four years. So I was, honestly, afraid to post this, afraid I'd sound like I'm scolding or overstepping. Anyway, my two cents to take or leave. You know your own situation best.

[Anna]

We've always made a policy that date nights will end before the eldest's bedtime, by at least an hour or half hour. The eldest might "put" the younger to bed, but not everyone is asleep in the house without an adult home. If all the kids go to bed at the same time, then we're home before anyone turns in. Inconvenient, sure. But secure-making.

Unless, dh and I are doing a rare night at a hotel, we practice this too. Even with my kids being 20 and 17, they'd rather have us home before they turn in. Of course, that's not a biggie for us because our kids like to stay up late and dh and I DON'T like going out to dinner real late because it makes it harder for us later on to get to sleep. But, yes, it's creepy even for my kids to go to sleep when we're not in the house. Heck, I'm like that when my dh is on business trips:(.

[Ria]

We do this, too:

Unless, dh and I are doing a rare night at a hotel, we practice this too. Even with my kids being 20 and 17, they'd rather have us home before they turn in. Of course, that's not a biggie for us because our kids like to stay up late and dh and I DON'T like going out to dinner real late because it makes it harder for us later on to get to sleep. But, yes, it's creepy even for my kids to go to sleep when we're not in the house. Heck, I'm like that when my dh is on business trips:(.

I think Pam of the Flaming Sword's input is stellar. Personally, I think kids, even teens, benefit from parents who spend most nights at home. There's the comfort factor for the kids, and the safety factor for them as well (especially once they become teens...).

Ria

[Joanne]

Without quoting anyone in particular......

I do not think it's a fair assessment to compare what "most parents do" in terms of being out "X" times a week. Most parents are away from their kids 8 hours a day minimum due to outside the home education and/or work.

I hear the posts on kids going to bed without adult company. That might well be a contributing factor. I'm not sure that changes on my part are the solution or needed, but greater sensitivity and awareness of that as an issue will likely help.

While I appreciate that my kids might still need time and processing to get to the other side of the major changes in their lives....I have done much consciously to assist with that.

I'm trying to be open to the feedback. Really. And I am processing all of it.

Since emerging from the depths of my former situation and moving out of the "littles" years with my kids.....having been a part of the AP and HS community for years, I am beginning to question some things and evaluate them in terms of family health.

[Jackie in AR]

Without quoting anyone in particular......

I do not think it's a fair assessment to compare what "most parents do" in terms of being out "X" times a week. Most parents are away from their kids 8 hours a day minimum due to outside the home education and/or work.

I hear the posts on kids going to bed without adult company. That might well be a contributing factor. I'm not sure that changes on my part are the solution or needed, but greater sensitivity and awareness of that as an issue will likely help.

While I appreciate that my kids might still need time and processing to get to the other side of the major changes in their lives....I have done much consciously to assist with that.

I'm trying to be open to the feedback. Really. And I am processing all of it.

Since emerging from the depths of my former situation and moving out of the "littles" years with my kids.....having been a part of the AP and HS community for years, I am beginning to question some things and evaluate them in terms of family health.

But your dc are still *little*, Joanne.

12, 11, and 9 are not ages that most consider to be mature.

If they need you to be home more at night, then I think you should consider meeting their needs.

You've had a lot to deal with these past few years and I understand you wanting to get out and have some fun now. But could you wait just a little longer to be gone so much? Until they really are more mature?

Just something to consider. I wish you and your family the best. :)

[Amy in NH]

I think Pam's comments are good advice. Houses can seem scary when you're "alone" at night.

But as a child of divorced parents, I have to agree with Julie.

My Mom was the one who asked for a divorce. She had already gotten over the end of her marraige to my father before the papers were filed, but it was a *HUGE* shock to me. Dad moved out at the end of November, just before my birthday, and Mom met a new boyfriend at a Christmas party where she worked. She wanted to spend time with him, naturally. She wanted grown up time, to be a person instead of always Mom. Granted, she was busy with other things too (which you may not be since you are home with them during the day). But it felt like the "free" time she had she chose to spend with *him* instead of *us*; she loved him better.

They were together 10 years before they were married, and now they've been married for 20 years. This has been an important relationship for her, not just some rebound boyfriend. And I've honestly been relieved, because as a child I remember worrying that someday she would be *alone* when I grew up. But as a child, I was also horribly jealous and hurt that she wanted to spend so much time with him and *without me*.

As a matter of fact, I turned to drinking and drugs when she wasn't home. Boredom? Dull the "pain"? Just plain unsupervised, with time to experiment? I can't remember what my motivation was, but now I know that I threw some important years of my life away (in fact there are stretches I just can't remember), and although I am on a good path now I think I really could have made something of my life if I had followed the plan I had set for myself before my whole life changed when my parents split up.

You might be ready to move on to the next phase of your life, but it seems like your kids aren't.

Just wanted to share my experience.

[JudoMom]

It seems that you are using your choices about how you've raised your children (homeschooling, AP, etc) as reasons why they should be able to handle the time home at night without you. The way you've raised them, though, are your choices. You've brought up that you are with them all day with homeschooling, etc, so they should be able to give you a night where you can go out alone without being on call. But being homeschooled isn't their choice (although I'm sure they love it and want nothing different), so it's not fair to tell them "I do this for you, so do this for me" (which is what it sounds like as an outsider reading it, and I really hope this doesn't sound harsh). On paper, I agree with you. They are old enough to stay home alone without calling you. But their behavior is telling you something different. I wouldn't let them call to tattle, but if they need to call you for other silly reasons, I think that is fair (frustrating for you, yes, but fair to them nonetheless).

FWIW, I also agree with Pam about the nighttime issue. But this is coming from a woman who slept on her parent's floor during thunderstorms until she was 20 and moved several states away :o.

[Holly IN]

Questions Joanne asked:

"The first question is general: Do you perceive a change in what you consider to be the acceptable and expected level of accessibility?"

Not really. I really feel more comfortable in being gone if I have a cell phone with me. Now it is your choice to answer the phone. I have cancelled some calls when I was busy and couldn't talk at that moment. Now as far as expectation of the level of accessibility is different. My family are fine with me gone as long as they know they can get ahold of me at any time. They do not call me. ha ha Now if they were alone they probably will call me. I have left my oldest at home by himself (he is of age) and hasn't called me yet. He was worried though when I didn't come home in one hour. He thinks one hour is enough time. :D



"The second is more specific: Do you have similar feelings and experiences with your kids. Assuming you want time away and "space" and "breathing room", how have you made that happen?"

I would love to be home with my kids all the time. I really have no need to go out with girls every weekend. I go out with my friends from the homeschool group about 2 times a year. I am currently working at nights so I am away from my husband and kids every night (5 nights a week and every other Saturday night). I do not want this but I have to work in order to make ends meet. Hopefully this will end in 2 years. So this happened by force. I would love to be home with my family every night. Before I started working I had no problem with being home with my kids. Now I do crave a date with my husband at least once a month. We can't afford one a week though. (it would be nice though)

As far as breathing room when I wasn't working, shopping for groceries without the kids is one of them. Taking a hot bath at night when the kids go to bed or up with their daddy is another. A little breathing room is fine with me but not a whole lot. kwim?

Hope this helps!

Holly

[Holly IN]

I agree with Julie....

Like I said in my post that I have no problem with having a cell phone on me. My kids are ok as long as I have my cell phone. In a divorce situation, this is totally different. New man in the house...

Sounds like your kids needs reassurance like Julie said. I think Julie hit the nail on the head on this one. I know it is probably not want you want to hear.

Another point I like to make is I consider homeschooling a lifestyle choice. I don't school at home. I homeschool all the time so I crave my time with my kids. Remember you only have them for about 18-20 years. Treasure your time with them. Like I said my dh and I can't afford to go out 1 time a week. It is more like 1 time a month. (I am not saying you aren't treasuring your time with them at all) Just a bit of reminder on how much time you have left with them while you have them in your home.

Just a suggestion...How about you and your dh involved the kids in going out with you? Think of yourself as a family with the dh instead of dh vs. the kids. In a divorce situation that is what I would do.

I re-read your post to see the ages of the kids....Wow! I wouldn't even leave my kids at home at that age. The oldest one I would but not the others. My kids will kill each other if I left them at home at those ages. Again each family is different and that is ok.



Just a thought and my humble opinion.

Blessings-

Holly



I know that your parenting style and mine differ a bit, but I thought I'd still go ahead and offer another perspective (mine :)).
While I understand your feelings about going out with the new dh, it seems possible that your kids need a bit more time to adjust to all of the changes in their lives. Even if your new husband is wonderful to them, it may seem to your dc that you're choosing time with him instead of time with them, even if your kids don't consciously identify their feelings as jealousy. You've done a lot of sacrificing, but your kids may not be quite as ready as you are to move on yet.
Even if you feel that I'm way off-base about that, my other thought is that two nights a week is more than most married-with-kids folks take for themselves. Your kids still seem a bit young for you to be away that much in the evening. Many families would not leave kids your kids' ages quite that often.
In short, I think you just have to hold out a bit longer. This (in my mind) falls under the "seasons of life" thing. Before you know it, your kids will be full-on teens, and it'll be them leaving too often, and you calling them "just because."
Wishing you all the best, especially on those nights you do get out! :)
~Julie~

[Joanne]

You might be ready to move on to the next phase of your life, but it seems like your kids aren't.

But your dc are still *little*, Joanne.

12, 11, and 9 are not ages that most consider to be mature.

If they need you to be home more at night, then I think you should consider meeting their needs.

Wow, people. This is interesting, assumptive and possibly a bit much. I have a common problem; my kids call me "a lot" when I am out. It seems to have happened also to several people in this thread who are NOT divorced and remarried. I think some posters are making an inaccurate assesment of this and assuming a whole lot.

The fact that they call does not equal needing me.
The fact that I am asking does not mean they aren't mature enough to be unsupervised a couple of evenings a week.
"Littles"? I don't think so. I'm not sending them out for a job to pay rent.

Like I said my dh and I can't afford to go out 1 time a week.

We go and play Texas Hold Em. It costs us $5.00 for 2 iced teas (non alcoholic) and gas.

Just a suggestion...How about you and your dh involved the kids in going out with you? Think of yourself as a family with the dh instead of dh vs. the kids. In a divorce situation that is what I would do.

Um, just WOW. This is very insulting. We are more family now than my kids have ever experienced.

Here is a list of things we have done together as a family in the past year:

Movies
Camping
Fishing, both while camping and not
Houston LiveStock Show and Rodeo
Motorcycle Rally
Trip to Galveston to ride the ferry and see the sites
See the Alamo
Numerous (I'm guessing more than 10) family church events
Church every week the kids are with us
Dinner
Family Movie Nights
Family Game Nights

I NEVER had a FAMILY life in my former situation; let alone an adult only time.

This weekend, my DH is in training to be a process server. The training is in San Antonio. At his suggestion, we asked my xh if we could trade weekends around so that we could take the kids. We'll do the whole family thing when he's not in training, I'll be with them on the River Walk all day Saturday and Sunday we are going to visit one of the missions that is not the Alamo. We *could* have enjoyed this weekend alone as still newlyweds but we preferred to include the kids.

The fact that I go out without them does not mean:

1) I don't do things with them, without DH
2) I don't do things with them as a family
3) That my family isn't thriving

The truth is my family is more healthy and thriving than it ever was.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Wow, people. This is interesting, assumptive and possibly a bit much. I have a common problem; my kids call me "a lot" when I am out. It seems to have happened also to several people in this thread who are NOT divorced and remarried. I think some posters are making an inaccurate assesment of this and assuming a whole lot.



I am so so so sorry I answered, Joanne. I never meant to make you feel this way.

I only have my own experience and perspective looking back on my own kids, who I also considered not little anymore when they were 12, 11, and 9, and my own times of feeling overwhelmed. I have a different perspective of how mature I consider 12, 11, and 9 looking *back* on those ages instead of being *in* that stage of family life. That perspective is all I had to share.

You sound like you feel slapped. But I'm pretty sure that people were just putting a hand out to offer help and it might have accidentally hit your face. The intention wasn't to slap, though I realize that what I said and even that I thought about it at all might seem that way.

[Virginia Dawn]

I have 3 younger boys, ages 14, 8 and 3. Dh and I have only recently begun to leave them alone together. This is with the clear understanding that the 14yo is in charge and he is paid. Even so we only do this on a special need basis, not regularly. I always call them as soon as we get where we are going to make sure everything is hunky-dory. We would never have left them at the ages your children are without someone more mature available to them.

So, yes, I believe a parent or parents should be available 24/7. It's part of the job. Not only that, having been a child that was left alone with siblings at a young age, I know it can be a scary thing. A contract does not give a child a feeling of security, which is what I think your kids obviously need. I would think that with everything they have been through, a sense of security is actually top priority.

When I need time alone, I leave the boys with dh and go shopping or to the library, or a friend's house, by myself. When dh and I want to go out together we make sure the 17yo will be home, or engage the 14yo as a babysitter. But really we try not to take advantage of the fact that we have two older boys. When I was a teenager, I felt a lot of resentment at my parents for using me as their (free) live-in babysitter.

I would be more concerned if my children did not want me accessible to them.

I have not read the other posts, so forgive me if I've repeated anything.

[Tammyla]

You said, "I am with my kids, except every other weekend and poker nights 24/7 unless it is a child centered activity... It's been building; I have felt resentful and smothered and under appreciated that I can't *go* without a call about some form of tattling, a stupid question, "I just called to see how you were doing".

Feeling resentful is a very normal feeling, but you changed their lives almost 100% and iah, need more time all around. So do, MAKE the most of your EVERY OTHER WEEKEND. That is a lot of time:) Do try to be home before bed as some other poster mentioned. AND another biggie, why shouldn't/couldn't your date time be their time be fun too? (((Hugs,))) but you are getting all the warm fuzzies out of date night and they are getting the short end of the stick.

Changes are hard on kids even good ones. You know your life is happier, better ect..but their lives may be harder, with more rules, less mom time, love and attention. To a kid, even a teen this is a loss that needs to be addressed.

And we moms sympathize, empathize, understand and are often in the camp longing for me time.

[katilac]

I think that 9, 11 and 13 is quite young to be left alone for two evenings a week, particularly until after bedtime. I have a 9 yr old, and we leave her with adults only - - we don't consider young teens capable of truly adult supervision. Others will disagree, but when push comes to shove, it only matters if THESE kids are emotionally and developmentally ready to deal with your particular situation.

Your need for adult and 'off-duty' time is understandable. Their reluctance and difficulties are understandable as well - - many kids don't like being home alone. This is not an issue where I would be comfortable insisting on compliance; if a child says or indicates they aren't ready to be home alone or with near-age siblings, that would be that.

The benefits do not outweight the dangers, and it's common for kids to have trouble articulating their specific fears, insecurities or concerns. Sometimes kids are embarrassed to admit to 'silly' fears, or reluctant to rat out a sibling whose behavior is making them uncomfortable or afraid. We all like to think that OUR kids know they can tell us anything, but it's not always true.

One thing I would do is begin to slowly work towards more independence and quiet time on their part when you ARE home. This builds their own confidence and lessens your stress.

There are several things I'd address when it comes to leaving them alone for alone or couple time. I think that twice a week is a lot, so I'd probably dial that back to begin with. If you feel that it's needed, what others factors can be changed? I would consider:

*coming home before bedtime
*taking the phone calls in stride until they have more experience
*taking a few hours in the day on Saturday or Sunday - - dates don't have to be at night!
*hiring a sitter or having them go to a friend's house, rather than staying home alone
*having one of the times be date night, and the other time be alternating alone time for you and dh (with the other staying with the kids)
*asking the kids what would make it easier for them

I would also take a long hard look at outside activities. It sounds like a lot of time and energy goes into dealing with their sports teams, which perhaps aggravates the feeling of being over stretched and in need of a break. I would decide if the activity was important enough to consume that many family resources, and if the family as a whole can deal with the demands in good grace. If the answer to either question is no, curtailing or quitting some activities may be part of the answer.

Kids are not a grateful lot in general, ;), and their emotional needs are rarely 'reasonable.' It can indeed be frustrating when they seem unable to respond in a loving way to OUR needs and desires, but that immaturity is one of the reasons they are under our protection.

[Holly IN]

Um, just WOW. This is very insulting. We are more family now than my kids have ever experienced.

Here is a list of things we have done together as a family in the past year:

Movies
Camping
Fishing, both while camping and not
Houston LiveStock Show and Rodeo
Motorcycle Rally
Trip to Galveston to ride the ferry and see the sites
See the Alamo
Numerous (I'm guessing more than 10) family church events
Church every week the kids are with us
Dinner
Family Movie Nights
Family Game Nights

I NEVER had a FAMILY life in my former situation; let alone an adult only time.




Joanne

Sorry if I insulted you. It wasn't my intention to do so. I just got a glimpse of your situation when you posted your situation. I do not know you or your family. It was just a suggestion not that I am insinuating that you do not spend time with your kids or include them. I am so sorry I even got involved in this thread. I am bowing out of this. I am sorry Joanne!

Holly

[Joanne]

AND another biggie, why shouldn't/couldn't your date time be their time be fun too? (((Hugs,))) but you are getting all the warm fuzzies out of date night and they are getting the short end of the stick.

Changes are hard on kids even good ones. You know your life is happier, better ect..but their lives may be harder, with more rules, less mom time, love and attention. To a kid, even a teen this is a loss that needs to be addressed.

I must not have articulated and posted much about my (and their) quality of life during my former marriage.

Some of these posts do not touch our/my/their reality at all. Indeed, the first quoted paragraph shows that you haven't read (or perhaps haven't believed) my responses in this thread.

It seems that you are using your choices about how you've raised your children (homeschooling, AP, etc) as reasons why they should be able to handle the time home at night without you.

Based on what I have posted in this thread, I understand why you responded with this. It opens a related topic, one this is intriguiging to me but one that I do not wish to discuss right now. I am not using my choices to assert they are ready or that I deserve the time. Instead, I think aspects of the AP and HS community are not healthy in regard to family/individual/couple time.

[bkpan]

Please try not to be so defensive re the responses you have received. You have been offered various "opinions" based on the questions you raised. These posters are not out to attack you, but to offer you other perspectives. (and I think that they have been very gentle in their responses). Overall, I think that many disagree with some of your assumptions about your dc just given the info you have shared. That's OK! They are just opinions. No one knows your situation as you do.

That said, it might be wise to examine why you are so defensive in this area. Many of us come from backgrounds of divorce and may relate to what you have shared about how your dc have responded. Isn't it just possible there could be a kernel of truth there? I think that is all some of the posters have recommended. Look at the situation closely. Of course you need time away with your dh. I don't think that anyone is disagreeing there. You just might want to examine the timing and the frequency.

Joanne, I'm sorry you feel that the posts you have received were intended to be anything less than helpful to you. From an outsider pov, I only saw attempts to assist you in finding a peaceful solution for your home. Blessings to you.

Kim in TN (used to be in NV)

[Joanne]

That said, it might be wise to examine why you are so defensive in this area.

Absolutely.

Many of us come from backgrounds of divorce and may relate to what you have shared about how your dc have responded. Isn't it just possible there could be a kernel of truth there? I think that is all some of the posters have recommended. Look at the situation closely. Of course you need time away with your dh. I don't think that anyone is disagreeing there. You just might want to examine the timing and the frequency.

Yes, I think there is a kernel of truth to it. I think evaluating this through the background of divorce is just as experientially biased as my own defensiveness. Kids from non divorced families have called their parents "often".

Joanne, I'm sorry you feel that the posts you have received were intended to be anything less than helpful to you. From an outsider pov, I only saw attempts to assist you in finding a peaceful solution for your home. Blessings to you.

Thank you. Some of the posts were, indeed, insulting. Many were not; they were thoughtful and helpful. But some assumed that a couple of nights out with my DH a week = no family time. That was/is insulting.

[PariSarah]

The first question is general: Do you perceive a change in what you consider to be the acceptable and expected level of accessibility?

Do you mean a change in society? Perhaps. I think it's most likely that there have always been all kinds of assumptions about children's need/desire for adult presence. Among certain socio-economic classes, something is considered "normal" that among others would be considered abusive, and vice versa.

If there is a society-wide change where more seems to be expected of Mom and Dad (in terms of immediate availability), I think it may be because of the increasing transience and isolation in our society. My grandmother has lived in the same house for fifty years. I have lived in seven different homes in the last ten years. She could rely on Mrs. Andresie next door to look in on the kids if she went out; I don't even know my next-door neighbor's name. That puts more of the burden on me to be available to my kids, because who else would?

The second is more specific: Do you have similar feelings and experiences with your kids? Assuming you want time away and "space" and "breathing room", how have you made that happen?

Yes, I often feel the need for "space" and "breathing room," but aside from those days I'm at work, I rarely take it in long bursts. My children's need for me seems age-appropriate; my need for "space" is related to my excessively introverted personality and so I'm content that "getting away" from them usually involves them sleeping. It doesn't seem fair for me to put my rather extreme personality quirks ahead of genuine needs.

But, then again, they don't seem to have what I would consider an unbalanced or excessive need for me to be available. They don't come pester me when I'm on the potty, and most days I can take a shower without a problem. And I do get to trade off with my spouse, which allows me twenty hours a week in a locked carrell in a library. Even my near-pathological case of introversion is mostly satisfied with that.

You didn't ask for a critique of your decision, and I have not had the experiences you have (with either spouse or children), so I would like to tread carefully here: I do think it's appropriate for you to set limits on the circumstances for which your kids should be calling you. I have long been comfortable with saying to my 9yods, "That question/story/comment can wait until I've finished my paper/you've finished naptime/we get back home/etc." You don't need me to agree with you, but I will: boundaries are a good thing. Saying "No" is not child abuse.

But I also have found that whenever I have set new boundaries (or begun to enforce ones that I'd been lax with previously) that I need to plan the transition carefully, taking into account the sort of boundary it is, the sort of kid I'm dealing with, and the context of our relationship. Sometimes, I have decided that a cold turkey approach is best and it's worked out fine. Sometimes, I have recognized the need for a gentle approach, and it's worked out fine. Sometimes, I've made the wrong call, though, and I've needed to back up and start over--either explaining that ds was taking advantage of my gentleness and it would cease or apologizing for not giving him time to adapt to the new circumstances.

I can't put myself in your shoes, really, but there are a lot of things about your situation that would be, for me, markers that signal a need to go slow with enforcing this particular boundary.

[Heidi @ Mt Hope]

"Wanting to scream 'STOP TOUCHING ME' even if no one is"... Yes. Yes. Yes. That is it!

All 3 of my boys are very physical and interactive. My 3yo in particular is a very touchy-feely guy. Constantly in my space, touching me or what I'm working on. By the end of the day..... my poor husband!

[Amy in NH]

Joanne,
I have always respected your thoughtful and pragmatic parenting advice. I understand that in this case you were asking for help solving what you thought the problem was - your kids calling too often when you're out having adult time with your new husband, when you think they shouldn't need you 24/7. But I think many of us see that there is an underlying problem that is causing the percieved problem behavior. And that's not what you want to hear. What is the saying about when *everyone else* is wrong?...

Maybe the people you are out playing cards with are permissive parents who are telling you something else?

Although I was a homebirthing, breastfeeding, cloth-diapering, baby wearing, co-sleeping (to a point), homeschooling Mom who sometimes read mothering.com, I have always disagreed with quite a few aspects of AP and have had tons of flames and posts deleted over there because of it. I would definitely NOT consider myself an AP parent because I don't buy a lot of their parenting stuff. I think there are many non-AP parents here. But, if you think homeschoolers are also wrong about their marraige relationships, and you don't want a homeschooling-parent's perspective, you might want to take your question to another place where people will tell you what you want to hear.

And, once again, as a former child & now also a parent of a divorced family, you are seeing this situation from your perspective as a newlywed, but try to see it from the perspective of an immature child who has had a lot of upheaval (yes for the better, but upheaval nonetheless), or even from the perspective of an outsider.

Maybe you should step back from this thread and visit it in a few days with a more open mind to what we are saying? Because I don't think anyone here is trying to offend you, and your tone is very defensive.

[PariSarah]

Sometimes all that togetherness gets almost physical, and you just want to scream STOP TOUCHING ME! Even if nobody is. I think it's the reason some women simply cannot breastfeed.

:D

Theo is mostly-weaning himself these days, and I'm just starting to be able to, like, hug people again.

(My family, that is. That wasn't an open invitation to hugging, all you space-invaders out there!)

Poor Isaac. He'll have lots to tell his therapist about "the year Mommy kept threatening to chop off my feet."

[Joanne]

Maybe the people you are out playing cards with are permissive parents who are telling you something else?

I don't ask parenting advice at poker.

[Joanne]

Maybe you should step back from this thread and visit it in a few days with a more open mind to what we are saying? Because I don't think anyone here is trying to offend you, and your tone is very defensive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps you are right. However, I do think some of the assumptions and posts were insulting; particularly those that assumed a lack of family time.

I think the topics contained within this issue are very complex.

[Amy in NH]

But people make comments, either spoken or with their body language, that might indicate that something is not okay with them, or that what you're doing isn't cool. Or they have kids the same age that are home alone during poker games, and their kids aren't calling. Or maybe people discuss their kids, even in a different context?

I'm just trying to feel out the situation... no offense intended.

[Jill, OK]

I think it's old enough, too, but I guess the bigger question is, are THEY ready to be left alone, unsupervised, more than once a week?

I absolutely think that young teens can be left alone, or in charge of younger siblings, here and there. I do it often!

*But*...my older kids are confident. I wouldn't be confident, if they weren't.

It might be that the readiness/ability is there, and there's simply a psychological barrier that's simultaneously making them unsure about staying alone and not being with you. (Two different issues). But even if it's only psychological (and they really could handle an emergency, etc.)...it's still there, and it's still valid; it could actually undermine their decision-making.

I know that finances are tight, and when kids are a certain age, there's an expectation of not having to pay babysitters, but...is there any way you could ease them into you being gone, by having someone else there, when you aren't?

You mentioned dysfunction. May I gently suggest that even if other folks do it regularly, it doesn't mean it's time, developmentally, for *your* kids to be doing it, considering what they've experienced? You may have to wait a little longer for some maturity to develop. If I'm remembering correctly, we're not talking a long amount of time, in between all of these life changes, are we? Not saying that there's a set-in-stone timeline for all children to achieve healing and normalizing, but...you may have to adjust your expectations.

I hate telling people things that they probably don't want to hear, and if you hadn't asked, I probably wouldn't chime in, but...I'd come down on the conservative side, when it comes to leaving them alone, if they aren't comfortable with it. You mention a lack of boundaries; would it be possible to work on *that* issue, apart from them staying alone? Establish some perimeters with you *in* the house, first, then ease into more independence for them?

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. It's hard to balance everyone's needs, but I know you're creative, and that if it's possible to find a way to work out what would be best for your family, you'll do it.

[Jill, OK]

...similarities between us, lol.

I think some of my kids' permission-asking might have to do with the potential of getting ratted out ("Did you ask Mom if you could turn on the TV?!?!"), but it might just be the control freak in me; I don't mind them calling.

Now, if they over did it, yeah, I might say "Is it really necessary to call?", but for the most part, it's stuff I want them to ask about.

Good analogy about the dh. I like being able to call him anytime, too, although he's learned to turn off his cell, lol.

("What do you mean you were in a high-level meeting with defense contractors?!? *I* needed to ask you what you wanted for dinner!!!")

[*anj*]

Without quoting anyone in particular......

I do not think it's a fair assessment to compare what "most parents do" in terms of being out "X" times a week. Most parents are away from their kids 8 hours a day minimum due to outside the home education and/or work.


Dear Joanne,
First of all I want to lay down the love mat before I say anything else. I mean that I have followed your journey over the past several years, and have mourned when you mourned and rejoiced when you rejoiced. I have a lot of respect for you, as a woman and as a mother.

I think you've gotten a lot of good advice here, and I don't want to just reiterate what others have said. But the bit that I highlighted above really jumped out at me.

Sometimes as a parent, I gauge all of my children by the abilities of my eldest. I think "Well, he's almost 11 years old, he should be able to xyz..." And I just sort of lump the youngers in with him. Your oldest should be old enough to leave alone, but I wouldn't necessarily think that a 9 and 11yo were ready for that. Do they feel secure enough with the 13yo to trust him as the "fallback"? I mean, if there were an emergency, do you think they have the same level of confidence in him as they do you or your dh?

I think that may be the bottom line. You didn't mention which of the children does the most calling, but maybe the oldest isn't secure in feeling ready for that level of responsibility and maybe the younger two don't feel secure either. And while it is true that children and parents are separated for 8 or more hours at a time, it's not the same thing. When children are in school and parents are at work, those children are not left alone to their own devices, they are under adult supervision. They are busy with classes and friends and so forth, and not alone in a house. And you know, I agree with Pam that houses are just kind of creepy at night. Even I hear sounds and think I see things out of the corner of my eyes when I'm alone at night.

I totally appreciate your desire for alone time. I wish I could really show you how very much I empathize with you. But the truth is that I don't know any adults (homeschooling or otherwise) who are able to go out a couple of times a week, leaving their kids alone at that age. I know people who, even with teens have had to fight for their right to a Saturday Date Night, but not with pre-teens and younger.

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/love/love0028.gif (http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/%5Burl=http://www.ladies-shoes.biz/ladies-shoes/63889-1.html%5D%5Bimg%5Dhttp://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/love/love0028.gif%5B/img%5D%5B/url%5D)

[Joanne]

Folks.

I know my kids. I do not think this is an issue of readiness, actual need or developmental not ready. Truly.

I don't think my kids are insecure in being left alone. I don't think they are reacting to the changes in my life over the last few years.

I think this thread got too personal, assumed way too much and got some pretty heady stuff laid upon it.

This is a case of my kids operating with the assumption that I should be immediately, totally accessible to them regardless of what I am doing. There are several reasons for that.

My kids are ready to be alone, happily or at minimum not unhappily. Them calling me "a lot" is not a sign of them needing more "me" time, more "family time" or them being tender over the changes in our lives.

I'm flabbergasted that no one has read some of the "you need family time" comments as being insulting.:confused::(

I am reading this thread with a great deal of raw sensitivity. I'd like to suggest that many of you responding are doing so through the filter of your perception of my experience and it's creating inaccurate to the issue responses.

[abbeyej]

I know my kids. I do not think this is an issue of readiness, actual need or developmental not ready. Truly.

Okay, I genuinely don't understand why you posted then. If you truly believe what you posted above, then it's just a discipline issue. So deal with it. Tell them not to call unless it's an emergency, define emergency, and lay out consequences if they do other than you have said.

I can't help but believe there were other reasons for you to post in the first place -- and reasons why you have responded with such defensiveness to posts that were meant to be helpful, not critical.

But if not, then just apply the discipline techniques you have been lecturing the board about for so long.

[*anj*]

I am reading this thread with a great deal of raw sensitivity. I'd like to suggest that many of you responding are doing so through the filter of your perception of my experience and it's creating inaccurate to the issue responses.

Joanne,
That's all we have. The truth is that none of us know you or your kids. But you asked our opinions, and we did the best we could with the information that we have.

Believe me, there have been times when I've asked personal questions and felt like I had been spanked by the end of the thread, seriously. And in those situations I had to either

choose to ignore certain comments because although the person meant well, she obviously didn't "get" what I was saying
look for the kernel of truth and at least chew it over
accept that maybe one of these people had an insight that I wasn't prepared for, an insight that I didn't like, but that could be "an inconvenient truth" (forgive the allusion! :o)I'm sorry that this is such a hot button issue for you. I'm not sure what you wanted us all to say. Did you just want to vent? That's truly okay, if that's all you were looking for, but I (and I suspect several others) thought that you were looking for input. I have an old and dear friend and we always say "This is a vent, don't try to solve my problem" or "Tell me the truth, what do you think about this situation." We communicate really well because of that.

That's all for now.
Be at peace.

[WTMCassandra]

Folks.

I know my kids. I do not think this is an issue of readiness, actual need or developmental not ready. Truly.

I don't think my kids are insecure in being left alone. I don't think they are reacting to the changes in my life over the last few years.

This is a case of my kids operating with the assumption that I should be immediately, totally accessible to them regardless of what I am doing. There are several reasons for that.


Joanne, I tried in my earlier reply to respond only to the question you were asking, but it appears from replies you made to others that I miscalculated how much training they had in this area. I know this thread has been touchy for you and lots of people. I'd like to try to bring it back around to your original question. I hope that's OK.

My question to you about the immediately, totally accessible thing is: Do they act this way at home? Are they characterized by being "pasted" to you at home?

To me, if the answer is yes, then I would start setting boundaries at home and then extend it to when you are out. It's a pervasive issue that has nothing to do with "being left home alone."

But if the answer is no, then it's time to back away and find out why. (And I don't want to go there right now, and I'm not making any assumptions about whether you going out is right/wrong/indifferent.) I'm just saying that perhaps the strategy for working on this problem would be different.

Also, you report that you think there are several reasons why they have this expectation. If you're not too exasperated, could I ask what they are? (They might help us figure this out.) You have alluded to the AP philosophy possibly being unhealthy (I'm not wanting to debate that one way or the other). I just think of my friend who says, "I've always been just so *available,* and now it's backfiring on me as the children get older. I have to teach them, for my good and theirs, that I'm "offline" sometimes."

This is the aspect of this situation that I think would be profitable for us to discuss to help you find ways to bring balance.

I don't want to judge your or anyone's stances on the important issues being raised, but I want to support you. It's tough to feel exasperated and post to a board wanting help only to get more criticism and thus feel even more exasperated. (I'm positing that's what you might be feeling based on what you said.)

Hope this helps a little. I genuinely want to listen to what you have to say and not judge it. (((Joanne)))

[Tammy]

I am no help...but just wanted to let you know I play Texas Hold'em also.... Are you still in Florida...? I play in the West Palm Beach area....

[Crissy]

The conversation my children and I had regarding this issue revolved around mutual respect.
I reminded them that I do not and will not call them on their cell phones when they are in the middle of baseball or wrestling practice, watching movies at a friend's home or riding their bikes at the park for some inconsequential questions or 'just because'.
My boys know that I don't interrupt their free time unless there is an emergency (and we've defined emergency). They also know I expect the same consideration.
I do carry my phone with me, but I do not expect it to ring when I am in a beautiful restaurant, enjoying adult conversation with my friends and my husband unless there truly is an emergency on their end.

[Joanne]

My question to you about the immediately, totally accessible thing is: Do they act this way at home? Are they characterized by being "pasted" to you at home?

No, they are not velcro children at home. At least not beyond normal, age expectedly, IMO. I've been able to sleep, shower, toilet and attend to hygiene issues for years.

Not "being able to cross the threshold of my master bedroom door" is a new one for them. They are willing to learn; but it's taking a while.

have alluded to the AP philosophy possibly being unhealthy (I'm not wanting to debate that one way or the other).

Sometime, I *do* wish to discuss this. ;-) However, in this moment, I just want to clarify that I don't think AP, as I embrace and understand it is unhealthy. I do think that certain family styles developed in the *name* of AP are unhealthy but I don't think those styles are AP. I think there are (largely unacknowledged) unhealthy aspects within both the AP and HS community but I don't find AP or HS unhealthy in and of themselves (obviously, as a devoted user of both!).

Also, you report that you think there are several reasons why they have this expectation.

I think this expectation begins with the fact that I am a mother. It was exaggerated in my former marriage by my xh who expected, beyond reason and in a controlling way my accessibility TO HIM. Even when operating a daycare of 6+ preschoolers, I had to be able to drop them to answer HIS CALLS. Similarly, I was not allowed actual "me time", "out time" and we did not have dates or time together that presented a healthy picture of a nurtured marriage. He failed to see me as a complete, whole human or our marriage as a living entity. My kids grew up until 3 years ago being trained that I was a non person except as it relates through them.

[Joanne]

I am no help...but just wanted to let you know I play Texas Hold'em also.... Are you still in Florida...? I play in the West Palm Beach area....

Hold Em is fun! (and I feel the need to clarify to the unitiated that tournament play in bars is "free", no gambling).

I'm in Texas, I never moved to FL; I got a divorce instead. LOL.

[j.griff]

The first question is general: Do you perceive a change in what you consider to be the acceptable and expected level of accessibility?

The second is more specific: Do you have similar feelings and experiences with your kids. Assuming you want time away and "space" and "breathing room", how have you made that happen?

I can't even stand being *constantly* available to my Littles, ;) I do NOT let them bother me when I am in the bathroom at ALL- unless there is a REAL emergency.
When DH and I go out (not very often- mostly we do quick (or NOT) shopping trips without the kids, or without ALL of them), there are some places that we don't have a good signal (when we go to a free movie on base). I try to let dd know where we are going in case there is an emergency though.
For a while when I was gone shopping (I do grocery shopping w/out the kids, so I can THINK LOL) dd would call me every time, to see if I was on my way home yet. That really started to bug me, and I let her know that I didn't like it. She hasn't done it since. She knows she can call if she NEEDS something, but she also knows that I can't stand the sound of a ringing phone LOL.

IMO, I'd just explain to the dc that this is the way things are, that mommy does NOT appreciate a million phone calls- give them a list of acceptable reasons TO call (and of course tell them if something URGENT comes up that's not on the list then of course they should call you)- talk to them about how you make sure their needs are met before you leave, you are not leaving them in dire circumstances, and that this is YOUR time. Point out to THEM that you are with them practically 24/7, and that you NEED this time for YOU, that it is annoying when they call you for little things, over and over. I think they are "old enough" to understand all of that.

Hugs

[WTMCassandra]

I think this expectation begins with the fact that I am a mother. It was exaggerated in my former marriage by my xh who expected, beyond reason and in a controlling way my accessibility TO HIM. Even when operating a daycare of 6+ preschoolers, I had to be able to drop them to answer HIS CALLS. Similarly, I was not allowed actual "me time", "out time" and we did not have dates or time together that presented a healthy picture of a nurtured marriage. He failed to see me as a complete, whole human or our marriage as a living entity. My kids grew up until 3 years ago being trained that I was a non person except as it relates through them.

Ah, this explains a lot. Actually, reading this, I realized that you said some of this before. I think this is the key to the whole issue--why they are doing it, and why it seriously gets on your nerves (and why you're frustrated with people on the board questioning whether you *should* go out).

I think your emotional baggage (very understandable) is at the root of your annoyance--leftover deep pain that is touched off when they seem to treat you the way your DH used to.

I think you should be kind to yourself and them. Sometimes when my children do something that sets me off, it helps just to know *why* it is such a hot button.

I think what Crissy posted is good--she had a talk with her children about mutual respect. But perhaps your children need more instruction and help in this area because the former life was so off-kilter.

For me, it feels selfish/bizarre to be the one to teach my children about respecting me. It also feels very unfulfilling to have to explain those things. Could your DH step in here a little, gently, and help begin to teach them to respect their mom? Or, could *he* answer the phone when they call and determine if the request is legit? If it is, then he could pass it to you. If not, he could relay that they don't need to call about it and tell them you will see them later.

But it might take them a while to catch on based on their history. So, could your DH help you to defuse some of the frustration?

(((Joanne)))

[Robin in Tx]

I have to agree with Abbey. If there are not any anxiety/adjustment issues at play here, then it is simply a discipline issue and you seem quite capable of thinking through that.

I'll answer your two questions:

1. Is there a perception of more accessibility today? It's not a perception. It's a reality. We have cell phones now. We *are* more accessable.

2. Do you let your kids access you 24/7? Yes. I do. I never go anywhere or do anything where she can't get in touch with me somehow in case of an emergency. If she abused that access, I would teach her not to. Plain and simple.

Robin

[j.griff]

Okay, I genuinely don't understand why you posted then. If you truly believe what you posted above, then it's just a discipline issue. So deal with it. Tell them not to call unless it's an emergency, define emergency, and lay out consequences if they do other than you have said.

I can't help but believe there were other reasons for you to post in the first place -- and reasons why you have responded with such defensiveness to posts that were meant to be helpful, not critical.

But if not, then just apply the discipline techniques you have been lecturing the board about for so long.

WOW! What is WRONG with this thread? SHe asked two very specific questions at the end of her post, and others are adding all sorts of other stuff into it. :confused: People post things here all the time, and they don't always like the responses. She did NOT ask if her kids were "ready" to be left at home, that decision is HERS to make and she didn't ask for that kind of advice.
Should we just tell everyone who posts with a "discipline issue" that they shouldn't have posted and they should just "deal with it"?

[Robin in Tx]

Jenn, I think it's simply a reaction to Joanne's reaction. If truly this is not a readiness issue, etc., then truly it is just a discipline issue. I think Abbey's advice is good... deal with it as a discipline issue. Don't overthink it. It's simpler than it appears.

Do I leave my kid at home alone sometimes? Yes. And she doesn't call me unless she needs to. I've taught her not to. This is a direct answer to Joanne's second question, which was how to handle arranging for uninterrupted time. I go, and I tell her not to call me unless she really needs something. Joanne has made it clear that this is not about readiness or attachment anxiety... it's about not respecting her boundaries. She can search the boards and find lots of good advice about that, much of which was given by her :). (in other words... she knew all along the answer to her problem, she just didn't realize it because mind fog is thicker when it's *you* in the situation).

Robin

[j.griff]

Wow, then at LEAST half the posts here are totally un-necessary, and most of us should just stop posting. After all, we could search the archives for other threads about it. I was offended and found it totally rude and un-necessary for someone to question WHY another poster even posted at all.

[GothicGyrl]

I have a LOT of respect for Joanne, having "seen" her through some of the most trying times she speaks of. I may not agree with AP, but for Joanne, I've nothing but respect.

As WTMCassandra focused in on, THIS is the key:
I think this expectation begins with the fact that I am a mother. It was exaggerated in my former marriage by my xh who expected, beyond reason and in a controlling way my accessibility TO HIM. Even when operating a daycare of 6+ preschoolers, I had to be able to drop them to answer HIS CALLS. Similarly, I was not allowed actual "me time", "out time" and we did not have dates or time together that presented a healthy picture of a nurtured marriage. He failed to see me as a complete, whole human or our marriage as a living entity. My kids grew up until 3 years ago being trained that I was a non person except as it relates through them.

All bolding mine. You have no idea just how controlling this man was to her. The cruz of it is that her kids grew up thinking, acting, and believing the way her XDH did, the way he treated her, etc. Even though her kids are NOT abusive, they know nothing else.

The man she is married to now, I can honestly say I CRIED when she spoke about him because the love he has for her and her kids showed in her postings. It really did. This isn't about the kids being "littles", or not getting enough family time, this is about them needing to re-learn behavior that was inappropriate to begin with (thanks to the Ex).

What Joanne is asking for is help with that--just HOW does one undo the vast amounts of damage that has been done to them by the Ex? Think of it like this, if a little boy grows up seeing daddy hit mommy all the time and is never taught that it is wrong to do so, what's that little boy going to grow up doing? Right--hitting women because he was "taught" that it was ok to do so by way of not teaching him it was wrong.

Her kids are not still "littles", I hate that. Kids grow up and they grow up differently than other kids--no two are alike. What I've seen here is simply horrendous to read and it makes me sad. You can't keep your kids, kids for very long and one shouldn't try to keep them as kids. You've got to let them grow up.

Joanne, I hope you don't feel I've overstepped any boundaries, I know how important that is to you. I really DO have a high amount of respect for you and I just could not, knowing what you went through, sit back and allow anyone to assume anything, the way it is being assumed.

Continue your nights out. It is, to me, a training issue, considering what your children went through--they need to be "untrained" somehow. I can't say I know how to do this because there has always been someone home with my kids (without me even trying), though they have been left alone many times due to work conflicts and such.

I'm sorry Joanne. :( Wish I could help out more.

[Crissy]

I think what Crissy posted is good--she had a talk with her children about mutual respect. But perhaps your children need more instruction and help in this area because the former life was so off-kilter.

For me, it feels selfish/bizarre to be the one to teach my children about respecting me. It also feels very unfulfilling to have to explain those things.

Hmmm. That's interesting, Cassandra. What do you think it is about discussing respect that feels odd to you?

Please don't take my question as confrontational. I am genuinely curious.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

WOW! What is WRONG with this thread? SHe asked two very specific questions at the end of her post, and others are adding all sorts of other stuff into it. :confused: People post things here all the time, and they don't always like the responses. She did NOT ask if her kids were "ready" to be left at home, that decision is HERS to make and she didn't ask for that kind of advice.
Should we just tell everyone who posts with a "discipline issue" that they shouldn't have posted and they should just "deal with it"?

Hmm, maybe this: I feel like I've "known" Joanne for awhile now. And while I shouldn't assume this is some kind of virtual coffee shop where friends sit around chatting and throwing out ideas, I guess I do, particularly when I think I know how I will be perceived by a certain poster. Perhaps I feel that way because of how that poster has answered others in the past, with kindly-intentioned advice and offerings of more than one way of looking at an issue, or perhaps I just feel comfortable "chatting" with that person more informally that "just the facts, ma'am; stick to the question, please." This is the case for BOTH points for Joanne.

But I misjudged in this instance, perhaps because the topic is a touchy one, or perhaps, well, I was just wrong. (That has been known to happen once or twice for this loud-mouthed Pam!)

That's what happened with ME. I, too, read the original and said, "Woah. This is Joanne[ asking about boundaries and discipline here. Maybe I should look deeper at this and see if I have something to offer, perhaps an angle that she hasn't thought about. She's given me completely different perspectives on my family dynamic in the past, and I'm sure it would be ok to explore alternatives that pop into my mind."

And like if she was listening to me be sad about a hypothetical problem that one of my kids might have had at boarding school and she offered the thought that perhaps I should keep open the option of bringing them home and offered opinions and angles and options, I would expect that from her and welcome it, even if she misunderstood some detail or another. Because I would figure after all this time, she might "know" a bit about my family expectations, personality, parenting style, etc, and have something to offer.

And if she had just recently joined the boards but had an insight to give or another angle to ponder but completely missed the mark or didn't know my background, I could just read on and not really worry if the observations didn't apply to me. Someone who would, for example, assume that boarding school meant my family was troubled or dysfunctional -- well, that simply wouldn't apply to me. Sure, I could be offended, but honestly, that doesn't apply to our family, so it doesn't bother me a whole heck of a lot.

I'm just sorry what was said was not helpful. Those of us who read past the questions weren't deliberately trying to be intrusive or insulting, I don't think.

Anyway, I'm not sure if that answers your question.

[PariSarah]

WOW! What is WRONG with this thread? SHe asked two very specific questions at the end of her post, and others are adding all sorts of other stuff into it. :confused: People post things here all the time, and they don't always like the responses. She did NOT ask if her kids were "ready" to be left at home, that decision is HERS to make and she didn't ask for that kind of advice.
Should we just tell everyone who posts with a "discipline issue" that they shouldn't have posted and they should just "deal with it"?

Well, trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt: Joanne seems to have posted a "hey, I had this revelation--does anybody else ever feel this way?" post, and people misunderstood her long wind-up as a request for constructive critique. They gave it, and it touched a raw nerve. abbeyej's question wasn't a "just shut up" question: it reflected broader confusion over what Joanne really was looking for from us. The laborious detail over the problem, the lack of indication on how she was planning to deal with this ("So, I finally realized that I needed to tell them . . . ") made people think Joanne was asking something she really, really wasn't.

I've learned to expect that sort of thing, and I tend not to post the long wind-up exactly so that I don't get the unasked for advice. (I have a gracious-response-to-intrusiveness disability :o) Or, I jump in quickly and say, "Hey thanks, but you misunderstood--I'm really asking which company puts out the best Duke Blue hair dye. Not whether you think I should use it--that's already been decided."

[Robin in Tx]

According to Joanne, most of the respondes in this thread *were* totally unnecessary, and not at all appreciated. That's kinda the point...

[Joanne]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WTMCassandra
I think what Crissy posted is good--she had a talk with her children about mutual respect. But perhaps your children need more instruction and help in this area because the former life was so off-kilter.

For me, it feels selfish/bizarre to be the one to teach my children about respecting me. It also feels very unfulfilling to have to explain those things.

Hmmm. That's interesting, Cassandra. What do you think it is about discussing respect that feels odd to you?

Please don't take my question as confrontational. I am genuinely curious.

I can answer that for me. I've found it ... odd? weird? unexpected? to have to social coach my kids through some things that I assumed were a "given". How to react when daycare clients come/go. How to act when I am on the phone. How to initiate playing with a group of kids.

Maybe the above refers to a similar discomfort? I think sometimes it's weird when I expect a higher level of intuitiveness from my kids and realize, eventually, they need specific training on how to act in situations that seem like a no brainer to me.

Add a "mom respect" issue into the mix and it can be draining and possibly even exasperating to have to ask for appreciation, respect or courtesy.

Or, I could be totally off base. :-)

[Jami]

I don't know, Jenn, the original questions did not seem that straightforward to me. The original post started with the title "Kids expecting parents to be available 24/7" but then there was a lot of detailed information about past history and Joanne's experiences and growing frustrations all which seemed to answer her own questions at the end. It didn't ever really feel like she was wondering if things have changed or if her expectations for time alone were reasonable, she already believes they have and they are. So I, for one, was never sure what was being asked, since she answered herself in her initial information.

Joanne knows a lot about parenting, has given advice to others for years about these things. If the issue is basically that her children, who she thinks should know better than to call her unnecessarily when she's out, are abusing that, then yes, as Abbey said, it's a simple discipline/training issue. Which is how Joanne herself probably would have responded. It was the inclusion of such broad and loaded questions about time alone, parental accessibility, etc. that opened the door to other sorts of advice to be given. I think in this format you have to be clear what you want as anj pointed out...a general conversation about homeschool kids expectations of time with parents? Sure, let's have it. But then leave personal situations out it and it's less likely to get, well, personal.

I feel sorry that Joanne experienced such poor treatment at the hands of her ex-dh. :( But, her children, whether they imitate his demanding nature or not, are not adults, they may not yet know how to see their mother as anything but a mother. And I'm sorry, but that's natural. I'm not sure I see why children should be able to see their mother as woman apart from that role. Not that that means a mother shouldn't have time to pursue NON-MOTHERING things, but she doesn't cease to be a mother. I'm sure I was an adult before I could really appreciate my parents as individuals, as *fellow* adults. Doing non-mothering things and having an identity of woman separated from mother or wife is confusing to me. I'd be some other woman entirely without marriage and children.

[WTMCassandra]

This is hard to put into words and is probably my personal baggage. I just typed a bunch of stuff and erased it because it didn't make any sense. It's not that I feel it odd to discuss respect in general or respect of DH or whoever, but *me* talking to the children about respecting *me.* I'd rather that DH do that ; ). I've accepted more now that it is necessary, but I still feel weird about it. Anyhow, I don't want to hijack Joanne's thread. But thanks for asking.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I've learned to expect that sort of thing, and I tend not to post the long wind-up exactly so that I don't get the unasked for advice. (I have a gracious-response-to-intrusiveness disability :o) Or, I jump in quickly and say, "Hey thanks, but you misunderstood--I'm really asking which company puts out the best Duke Blue hair dye. Not whether you think I should use it--that's already been decided."

And one thing to remember as well is that some people do not read the whole thread and the followup clarifications before posting a reply to the original post.
So it may be tiring to read "Well, I think Carolina Blue is a much nicer shade with your eye color. Would you consider a different formulation altogether?" a couple more times, but that doesn't mean the further offers of shade choice perspectives are unkindly meant.

Smile and wave, boys, smile and wave. (I forgot who just posted that yesterday.)

[And I think I completely misused "altogether." But I'm too lazy to look it up. So, sorry.]

[WTMCassandra]

Add a "mom respect" issue into the mix and it can be draining and possibly even exasperating to have to ask for appreciation, respect or courtesy.


Yes, Joanne, yes! Yes to all of your post, but especially what I have quoted. This is why I suggested you ask DH to help you handle some of it. I have asked my DH to do so on occasion.

I know that your DH is a step, so you might want to tread a little cautiously, but I'm thinking that he could at least answer the phone for you and run a little interference.

I just couldn't articulate my feelings about it to Crissy as well as you did. But your reaction resonates with me very closely.

[GothicGyrl]

This is hard to put into words and is probably my personal baggage. I just typed a bunch of stuff and erased it because it didn't make any sense. It's not that I feel it odd to discuss respect in general or respect of DH or whoever, but *me* talking to the children about respecting *me.* I'd rather that DH do that ; ). I've accepted more now that it is necessary, but I still feel weird about it. Anyhow, I don't want to hijack Joanne's thread. But thanks for asking.
Cassandra--I think I understand what you are saying, but to add something that: there is absolutely zero reason why teaching your children how to respect their mother should be left up to ONLY the father. None. Not only should the father be practicing said respect towards mom, but mom--herself--should never be afraid to say to the kids "dude, these are my boundaries, back off".

Elsewise, how are they going to learn to respect their own wives if mom never showed them how?

I only say this not knowing your situation. But I do completely know Joanne's. And in that context, I cannot fathom anyone not standing up to their kids disrespecting me, as their mother-the woman who gave birth to them AND expecting ONLY my DH to be the one to teach them that.

Does that make sense?

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I can answer that for me. I've found it ... odd? weird? unexpected? to have to social coach my kids through some things that I assumed were a "given". How to react when daycare clients come/go. How to act when I am on the phone. How to initiate playing with a group of kids.

Maybe the above refers to a similar discomfort? I think sometimes it's weird when I expect a higher level of intuitiveness from my kids and realize, eventually, they need specific training on how to act in situations that seem like a no brainer to me.

Add a "mom respect" issue into the mix and it can be draining and possibly even exasperating to have to ask for appreciation, respect or courtesy.

Or, I could be totally off base. :-)

YES. I've modeled proper behavior for YEARS. How can they *not* know this? Where is the disconnect?

And yet, not only do/did my kids need explicit instruction, but they need specific role playing and coaching. "Ok, mom is on the phone. XYZ is happening. Do you interrupt?"

Sigh.

And then subsequent children come along. And I say, "Haven't I *had* this frickin' conversation five thousand times already?" Yeah. But not with this kid. And this kids a visual learner. Last kid was auditory, so this one needs a list, and with the last one a list would have thrown her into a tailspin.

So no. You're not off base. It's draining. It's exasperating. Unfortunately, it's necessary. It's why Calgon commercials from thirty years ago ("Take me away!") are still quoted and resonate.

My husband doesn't train about such issues. He just yells. (And he's generally a very good guy.) So I get to do it. "Say 'Thank you, Mom, for making the dinner.' 'Thank you, Mom, for making the dinner.' You're welcome."

By the time they leave home, they sorta kinda get it, I think.

[WTMCassandra]

Oh yes, it certainly makes sense. How Joanne put it is much better than how I put it. I'm not trying to say that *only* the father should teach it, but in this case, since it's a hot button, I thought what helped me might help her: Ask DH to take some of the pressure off because it bugs her so much. It's the exasperation factor. I can and do enforce boundaries--but it can really get on my nerves. I understand what you are saying, though.

[PariSarah]

So I get to do it. "Say 'Thank you, Mom, for making the dinner.' 'Thank you, Mom, for making the dinner.' You're welcome."

My favorite part is doing this over, and over, and over, and over, and then having certain Boundaries-Challenged Relatives fuss at me for being too demanding. "Why does he have to say 'Thank you' every. single. time. with you? Why can't you ease up on him a bit?" "Why are you getting on his case? He can throw his food on the floor at my house if he doesn't want to eat it!"

:rolleyes:

[GothicGyrl]

Oh yes, it certainly makes sense. How Joanne put it is much better than how I put it. I'm not trying to say that *only* the father should teach it, but in this case, since it's a hot button, I thought what helped me might help her: Ask DH to take some of the pressure off because it bugs her so much. It's the exasperation factor. I can and do enforce boundaries--but it can really get on my nerves. I understand what you are saying, though.
I think though, being only the "step" parent, especially for men, it is sometimes hard for them to step up and say "Hey, mom needs some time, back off".. they should do that, but some men just can't.

Now, I don't get that vibe from Joanne's current though. He HAS stepped up a LOT more than the ex ever did, in fact, he stepped up right from the get go. So I don't think the DH, in this case, stepping up would help because he has so much already.

Now, though, I do think that instead of seperating the "attack", Joanne and DH should both stand up and say "Dude, OUR boundaries are being crossed". Instead of Just Joanne or Just DH. Kwim? That might work better, united, instead of it being one or the other.

[WTMCassandra]

Oh, yes, Pam and Pari-Sarah--I can relate to so much of these also. And the Boundaries-Challenged Relatives, too. Shudder.

[WTMCassandra]

Yes, I agree. I was just trying to help Joanne possibly defuse the annoyance when the phone rings by asking DH to answer it. Just so she doesn't have to answer it every. single. time. I'm talking about a stop-gap to help her cope while she's training her children not to call for frivolous stuff every 15 seconds.

[Melinda in VT]

I know one family that set out a treat for every half-hour the parents were going to be gone. If the half-hour went by and the kids didn't call the parents for a non-emergency, they got the treat.

Of course, this might make it more about them, when you are trying to teach them to respect you.

You might want to try setting aside some time when you are home when you are unavailable. "If I am in this chair reading with my headphones on, it means only disturb me if it's an emergency. An emergency involves blood, fire, or water." That would give them practice in putting your need for time alone over their need for immediate interaction.

[Peek a Boo]

I'm not sure I understand Joanne's first question:
Do you perceive a change in what you consider to be the acceptable and expected level of accessibility?

In society? Within the family? Within *our* family? I believe that making myself accessible is a GREAT thing. i do think cell phones have helped tremendously in that regard. I do think it is up to me to limit that accessibility as needed. My answer to Question 2 is detailed below in how we make that happen in our home.

I think Toni hit the nail on the head in Joanne's case:

the kids need to be Untrained.

They have been trained [by all the causes listed in your OP] to be really mom-focussed: by XH and by the LOTS of family time. Now, after them growing up for years in all that, they are being told to do exactly the opposite.

i do agree that it is most likely a simple discipline issue, but one thing that did bother me was:

"I hear the posts on kids going to bed without adult company. That might well be a contributing factor. I'm not sure that changes on my part are the solution or needed, but greater sensitivity and awareness of that as an issue will likely help."

Sometimes being sensitive and aware are simply not enough: they DO require action on our part --someone called it "get off your butt" parenting, where we really do hafta stop doing something that is convenient for us and make sure it is *effective* for them. I have really benefitted from that advice! That has made a world of difference for me :) If the 'discipline' is not working, we need to change how we are disciplining.

Yes, I think that as long as we have children in our care we do need to be accessible to them. But we have had to train them to respect those boundaries of individuality --and it's training, not telling. All the infernal practice practice practice. I liked what Terri maxwell mentioned: "we sat around watching each other eat popcorn so the kids could practice chewing w/ their mouths closed" LOL! I had never thought about that before. And like your "why don't they just understand basic social stuff"-- they simply don't. And it IS frustrating --but it's only frustrating if we continue to expect a result that we did not practice with them to achieve. It will require practice. Kinda like when we teach kids to sit still in the pews by starting off w/ small increments at home and building up the time. We do the same thing w/ training them to not call. UNtraining them to be away from mom, as toni put it. By starting w/ smaller increments of time away, sometimes just "room time" for 15 minutes to an hour at home. If just telling them worked we wouldn't feel so frustrated :-) Several people offered advice earlier in the thread that we also use to make that happen-- a list of expected things to be done at home, maybe something enjoyable while we are gone [special movie, treat], calls from US so they know we WILL call, etc.

That being said, i do agree that the ages of your kids might be fine for a couple hours, but I would encourage you to cut it short a bit and put them to bed until they are trained to not call. Not until they were consistently following boundaries at a "lower" level. i think pam was spot on in saying they might be ready, but obviously they AREN't ready. i don't think adjusting our date nights a bit here and there is an unreasonable thing, esp if we know that we are making progress that will have HUGE payoffs.

I am really glad your home life has improved so much! I have no doubt that regardless what people offer in this thread, you will glean anything you need and figure out a solution for your home. Good luck~

[FlockOfSillies]

Do you perceive a change in what you consider to be the acceptable and expected level of accessibility?

Do you have similar feelings and experiences with your kids. Assuming you want time away and "space" and "breathing room", how have you made that happen?

I haven't perceived a change in either my level of accessibility or expectations of it, but that's because my kids are younger than yours (0-8 yrs. -- genuine littles) and because I've already been able to establish a pattern with them in this area. My dh and I go on "dates" quite frequently because we live close to both sets of grandparents. During the day, I have no qualms about telling the kids when I need alone time. I don't always express it properly :o but I do remind them not to nag.

Obviously, you didn't have that opportunity in your first marriage. I think what you're doing now with your new dh is healthy -- alone time for the two of you, as well as time with peers away from the kids. My ILs have been married happily for more than 50 years and I think part of the reason is that they have a wide social circle. My folks, on the other hand, have been married mostly unhappily for more than 35 years. They never went out together w/o us kids more than once or twice that I can remember, and their social circle was practically nonexistent. (Lots of dysfunctional history there.)

Some of the other posters have pointed out that your kids will only be young once, and eventually they'll be uber-busy teens who can hardly be bothered to give you the time of day. The flip side of that is this: when those kids are grown and gone -- and it always happens too fast -- you'll be alone w/ dh, and you need to have something more than "the kids" to keep you glued together.

I think that the boundaries you're trying to set for your nights out are perfectly appropriate, based on what you've told us in the past and in this thread. I can't believe I even have to say that, and frankly I'm a bit shocked that the majority of the responses you've gotten are on the "coddle your kids" side of the continuum.

Your kids don't have to be happy about your new social life, but they do have to respect it. It will take longer for them to get over it, given their established habits and mindset, but they'll be fine. It's important for them to see that your marriage is healthy; I've heard it said that the most important thing you can do for your kids is to have a good marriage.

In your shoes, I'd probably do something along these lines:
-- Give them The Speech about how things are going to be in this area from now on. Something including the idea that constant calls for no reason are considered "nagging" and "interrupting a conversation." In other words, it's rude.
-- Leave them a short checklist of reasons to call you when you're out. Call it the "Before you call Mom" list. Any calls/contact not arising from an acceptable reason will result in discipline.
-- Consider texting them or even calling them ONCE at their bedtime to say goodnight, to allay any spooky house fears that they have actually expressed to you. Remind them that your call does not give them permission to start bugging you. After all, they're going to bed, right?

I think what they're doing is really simple: when it comes to your attention, the more they have, the more they want. Want <> need.

That's my pair o' pennies.

[FlockOfSillies]

Do you perceive a change in what you consider to be the acceptable and expected level of accessibility?

Do you have similar feelings and experiences with your kids. Assuming you want time away and "space" and "breathing room", how have you made that happen?

I haven't perceived a change in either my level of accessibility or expectations of it, but that's because my kids are younger than yours (0-8 yrs. -- genuine littles) and because I've already been able to establish a pattern with them in this area. My dh and I go on "dates" quite frequently because we live close to both sets of grandparents. During the day, I have no qualms about telling the kids when I need alone time. I don't always express it properly :o but I do remind them not to nag.

Obviously, you didn't have that opportunity in your first marriage. I think what you're doing now with your new dh is healthy -- alone time for the two of you, as well as time with peers away from the kids. My ILs have been married happily for more than 50 years and I think part of the reason is that they have a wide social circle. My folks, on the other hand, have been married mostly unhappily for more than 35 years. They never went out together w/o us kids more than once or twice that I can remember, and their social circle was practically nonexistent. (Lots of dysfunctional history there.)

Some of the other posters have pointed out that your kids will only be young once, and eventually they'll be uber-busy teens who can hardly be bothered to give you the time of day. The flip side of that is this: when those kids are grown and gone -- and it always happens too fast -- you'll be alone w/ dh, and you need to have something more than "the kids" to keep you glued together.

I think that the boundaries you're trying to set for your nights out are perfectly appropriate, based on what you've told us in the past and in this thread. I can't believe I even have to say that, and frankly I'm a bit shocked that the majority of the responses you've gotten are on the "coddle your kids" side of the continuum.

Your kids don't have to be happy about your new social life, but they do have to respect it. It will take longer for them to get over it, given their established habits and mindset, but they'll be fine. It's important for them to see that your marriage is healthy; I've heard it said that the most important thing you can do for your kids is to have a good marriage.

In your shoes, I'd probably do something along these lines:
-- Give them The Speech about how things are going to be in this area from now on. Something including the idea that constant calls for no reason are considered "nagging" and "interrupting a conversation." In other words, it's rude.
-- Leave them a short checklist of reasons to call you when you're out. Call it the "Before you call Mom" list. Any calls/contact not arising from an acceptable reason will result in discipline.
-- Consider texting them or even calling them ONCE at their bedtime to say goodnight, to allay any spooky house fears that they have actually expressed to you. Remind them that your call does not give them permission to start bugging you. After all, they're going to bed, right?

I think what they're doing is really simple: when it comes to your attention, the more they have, the more they want. Want <> need.

That's my pair o' pennies.

[amy g.]

I read this entire thread....twice and still couldn't express what I wanted to say. My older kids are the same ages as yours, plus I have a clingy, still nursing 16 month old, so I completely understand your desire to have a little bit of uninterrupted adult time.

I asked my kids what they would think if I wanted to go out with their dad and leave them at home a couple of nights a week. While the two oldest agreed that It would be my right, and would only be fair since I spend all of my time with them now, they just could not understand why calling every few minutes might be a problem.

From their point of view, calling seemed obedient and respectful. My 13 year old said, "I think calling shows what good parenting they have had. Bad kids would just turn on the TV with out asking, and wouldn't care enough about the rules to tattle".

I thought it was interesting to get a kid's perspective.

[Caroline]

J

We've done Saturday morning dates before -- leave the kids to cartoons and cereal and/or some sleeping in. Same number of hours, still 7-12 maybe, but daylight rather than night. Afternoon, ditto.



I love this idea. I would never, in a million years, have thought of it. Thanks!

[Peek a Boo]

I think that the boundaries you're trying to set for your nights out are perfectly appropriate, based on what you've told us in the past and in this thread. I can't believe I even have to say that, and frankly I'm a bit shocked that the majority of the responses you've gotten are on the "coddle your kids" side of the continuum.

I agree with the first part of your quote.
I'm not seeing a "coddle your kids" response in this thread. I'm seeing a buncha gals offering ways they have "made it happen" --or disagreeing by sharing ways that they think it SHOULD happen in their family --Joanne did ask that. If she doesn't want to institute those ideas she sure doesn't have to. I'm sure Joanne receives a lot of "you're coddling your kids w/ AP" comments all the time. They aren't appropriate there and they aren't appropriate in this thread towards ladies who are offering what works for them.

But she DID share that there is a new problem in dynamics w/ her kids.

She wants that to change.

She asked about how people make it happen in their house.

To expect kids to change immediately [esp after what they've been through w/ XH then and now, and the complete 180 that has happened], w/o struggle or repercussions is simply not healthy for anyone IMNSHO. Will the kids cope if Joanne continues her new routine w/ dh? Yeah. "kids are resilient" --we hear that everywhere all the time. Well, maybe not at the juvenile detention center ;-P Will it be in a way that will be beneficial for the family in the next few years? Nobody knows that for sure, but resentful feelings are the basis for a lot of family and societal problems --whether those feelings of resentment are more perceived or actual is another question, but they have similar results. I would absolutely work *now* to prevent either one. As I mentioned --it will have HUGE payoffs down the road.

Everyone knows that Joanne is a GREAT parent. But she's still human, like all of us. And chastising posters who are sincerely trying to help a problem that IS shared publicly [by responding to the "how do you make that happen" question] makes no sense to me.

[FlockOfSillies]

Peek, I think you misunderstand me a little. (Note to self: stop posting serious stuff at 2 a.m.) If you go back and read what you quoted of my response, you'll see that I thought the advice Joanne was getting was that she SHOULD coddle her kids, and I disagree with that advice.

I came to this thread pretty late in the game. I read Joanne's initial post and thought that what she was really looking for was to give herself permission to do something normal and healthy, after so many years of the opposite. Her kids need to see normal and healthy being lived out, even if it means temporary struggle. Contrary to what you implied in your response, I DO expect kids to struggle with change, especially if they've gotten accustomed to being the center of Mom's universe. Not everyone's responses to Joanne were unhelpful, and I wasn't singling anyone out. But not every response was of the "this is how we made it work" variety. A lot of them were "you shouldn't do this at all" flavor.

I guess if I were in Joanne's specific shoes, I would be less willing to "wean" my kids from their selfish expectations than others on this board. I'm more of a "cold turkey" kind of person in this area. But I don't do AP (surprise!) and I think Joanne's kids are old enough to recognize that their demands and potential resentment are unreasonable, once they've had it explained to them broken-record style.

I do tend to assume that everyone here means well and sincerely wants to help. That's partly why I was so surprised by some of the responses Joanne got.

[DB in NJ]

I completely agree with this. Well said.

[kalanamak]

Since I've started going out regularly with my DH a couple of nights a week, a dynamic with my kids has been made apparent.
<snip>

The first question is general: Do you perceive a change in what you consider to be the acceptable and expected level of accessibility?


I think cell phones and kids no longer walking to school or roaming the neighborhood with bikes etc. is all part of this.

When I was a kid, if I whined or cried for something it was a SURE thing I was not going to get it. If a kid wants something and their interruption was not situation AND age appropriate, they ain't getting it. If it something required, I do as little as I can, with brief comment about how kiddo can do the rest because he was impatient. It is working wonders.

[Jan in SC]

My kids are too young now, but I'm thinking that charging a $1 per call might help! You might make enough money for a couple of extra hands.
Good Luck!

[Peek a Boo]

"Peek, I think you misunderstand me a little. (Note to self: stop posting serious stuff at 2 a.m.) If you go back and read what you quoted of my response, you'll see that I thought the advice Joanne was getting was that she SHOULD coddle her kids, and I disagree with that advice."

--yeah-- I got that part :) {{and I think you posted just fine at 2am, lol}} I simply disagree w/ your assertion that the advice given by others was "coddling" -- i think there's a difference between coddling and training. I do perceive that more weaning DOES need to take place. We call that training, not necessarily weaning. But it is the same concept.

"I came to this thread pretty late in the game. I read Joanne's initial post and thought that what she was really looking for was to give herself permission to do something normal and healthy, after so many years of the opposite. Her kids need to see normal and healthy being lived out, even if it means temporary struggle. Contrary to what you implied in your response, I DO expect kids to struggle with change, especially if they've gotten accustomed to being the center of Mom's universe. Not everyone's responses to Joanne were unhelpful, and I wasn't singling anyone out. But not every response was of the "this is how we made it work" variety. A lot of them were "you shouldn't do this at all" flavor."

I came to this thread late too --it really took awhile to process all the different replies --there's a LOT here! I do understand that *you* expect the kids to struggle with Joanne's situation. I posit that even w/ her cutting back date nights to work on training them, they are STILL struggling. Training itself means there's a struggle being addressed. I don't recall seeing too many people say Joanne "shouldn't do this at all" --i read quite a few that did suggest cutting back. I'm all for letting my kids struggle --but not when it's a struggle that will do them [or the family future] more harm than good. That's akin to letting them have free choice in everything. We limit their struggles and choices cuz that's what parenting *is* --training them bit by bit to become strong independent courteous people. But without that training they only have a kid's experience and perception to rely on. And their previous training up to now tells them to "call mom."

I'm not an AP kinda gal either lol. My kids have never bugged me by phone --but we haven't tossed them in deep waters w/o teaching them. It's been a slow process. And I love the results. I bet Joanne would too :)

[Tammyla]

Oh, gosh. I just glanced back and read many (Not All.) of the responses and posts. (I do and did respond without reading the entire thread.) My not so clear post was meant to answer the original question.

I do leave my kids alone now, and in the past with sitters. I've always made an effort to make it a good time for them too. I leave a craft, special dvd, pop-corn and pizza to make it a fun night, morning or afternoon. The effort makes it a win-win for me, my date(dh) and kiddos. If it's a night out, we are always home to tuck them in.

Kids are different, families are different, and we all know that. You gotta to find what works best in your home. ;)

Blessings~

[Janna]

Thanks,

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Thanks,

Attachment parenting.

[*anj*]

Attachment Parenting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_parenting

[Janna]

Ah! Now that makes sense. Thank you both!

Attachment parenting.

Attachment Parenting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_parenting