I need adjective help from a grammar guru

[Blessedfamily]

What is the proper order for adjectives? I've looked at 6 sources and they are split. I gave an example under each. Which sounds right?

Is it....

Opinion Size Age Shape Color Origin Material Qualifier

beautiful big old rectangular grey English brick vacation home


Or is it....

Opinion Size Shape Age Color origin Material Qualifier

beautiful big rectangular old grey English brick vacation home

[Linda]

The grammar guru in me says it doesn't matter because a good sentence would never have that many adjectives.

Not much help, I know :-(

[Balancing]

From a non grammar person (I know, not what you asked for, but at least you will get a bump! :D )

The first one 'sounds' better to me.

[Blessedfamily]

:lol: Of course it wouldn't have that many adjectives, but if you left some out, then how would you do it? The book we were using teaches the second one, but it didn't sound right. The funny thing is, sometimes one sounds right, sometimes the other.

It's really "shape" and "age" that they disagree on so if you leave out the rest....

1- a precious little antique round box
2- a precious little round antique box

1- a beautiful big new oval cameo
2- a beautiful big oval new cameo

Now I've just confused myself more because doesn't "size" sometimes come before "opinion"? Otherwise, why do we say "a big, beautiful dog" instead of "a beautiful, big dog."
I'm going to have to sleep on this and bump it up again in the morning.

[KForce]

I taught high school English for six years, so here's my opinion:

It depends on the intent of the writer. If you want to emphasize the SHAPE, place it closer to the noun. If you want to emphasize the AGE, then place that adjective closer.

1- The 2-year-old round table

2- The round 2-year-old table

Sorry it's just an opinion, but HTH!

[Blessedfamily]

I taught high school English for six years, so here's my opinion:

It depends on the intent of the writer. If you want to emphasize the SHAPE, place it closer to the noun. If you want to emphasize the AGE, then place that adjective closer.

1- The 2-year-old round table

2- The round 2-year-old table

Sorry it's just an opinion, but HTH!

Thank you. You know, I'm so surprised to read in grammar texts that so much is debated in grammar in general. As a student, I thought this stuff was etched in stone, but I see it isn't.

[OhElizabeth]

Ok, I'm not a guru, but I am a little geeky on times with grammar. So I pulled out my college texts on it, and the one meant for english speaking students didn't even discuss this. In other words, my whole advanced grammar class with a ph.d. instructor didn't consider it worth discussing for teaching native speakers. It's something a native speaker hears and does automatically, so I personally wouldn't stress your soul about it AT ALL. My textbook (mind-numbingly complex) meant for ESL prep however does go into it. It says adjective order is an issue of minor concern for non-native speakers. Unfortunately, it's so complex my mind is swirling even after 15 minutes of reading and rereading the chapter. You have adjectives before, adjectives after, temporary and permanent meanings, etc. Whew!

The differences in order in your sources occur, at least according to my text, because they are each based on studies done where they compare native speakers' use to a predicted model. And to blow your mind (or as you can guess would be the case), each linguist doing a study has their own way of categorizing adjectives. My text cites 3 studies, each of which broke down adjectives into different categories. Sometimes the issue was broader categories vs. more detailed. However the one the text seems to favor, and which closely matches yours, is:

det opinion size shape condition age color origin noun
an ugly big round chipped old blue French vase

Additional studies lead the author to conclude that "while the established order is valid, it is not equally fixed for all types of adjectives." He also points out that most adjective sequences usually have 2, with 3 or 4 being much less common. So for ESL/instructional purposes they recommend using only 2 adjectives (typically for size and color) and practicing proper ordering of them. Proper adjectives that order with material adjectives (wooden Japanese chests vs. Japanese wooden chests) and adjectives denoting shape (a round blue table vs. a blue round table) have variable order. Meaning is also communicated with the primary stress (accent/stress placed on the most important word in speech). Some adjectives, such as "little," have alternate meanings (a cute little girl vs. a little old lady), meaning they jump categories. He also suggests that adjective length has an effect on ordering, though he observes no studies have been done on it.

"For adjectives referring to origin, speaker performanced matched order prediction 100 percent of the time; i.e., there was a perfect correlation. Adjectives of size exhibited a very strong correlation while adjectives of age, opiinion, condition, and color also exhibitied fairly strong correlations. Adjectives of shape exhibited the weakest correlation between the predicted and the observed order. These results indicate that while the established order is valid, it is not equally fixed for all types of adjectives."

And here's the table he's referring to.

opinion size shape condition age color origin noun
.80 .96 .66 .79 .85 .77 1.0

In other words, you would teach a non-native speaker that in general size comes before shape, color, etc. and that origin comes right before the word it applies to. I don't see the point in going into such detail with a native speaker, as they hear it naturally. Is your text implying it is a source of error for native speakers? Are you using this discussion as a springboard to improve writing?

[In The Great White North]

Ok, I'm not a guru, but I am a little geeky on times with grammar. So I pulled out my college texts on it, and the one meant for english speaking students didn't even discuss this. In other words, my whole advanced grammar class with a ph.d. instructor didn't consider it worth discussing for teaching native speakers.

:iagree: I looked through my vast collection of English grammar books and couldn't find any reference to it at all.

[Blessedfamily]

And here's the table he's referring to.

opinion size shape condition age color origin noun
.80 .96 .66 .79 .85 .77 1.0

In other words, you would teach a non-native speaker that in general size comes before shape, color, etc. and that origin comes right before the word it applies to. I don't see the point in going into such detail with a native speaker, as they hear it naturally. Is your text implying it is a source of error for native speakers? Are you using this discussion as a springboard to improve writing?

Thanks for your help.

I was just using it as a springboard, but I think it caused more confusion than help. It was on a grammar site that I use for reference to make sure I'm covering everything. I guess there's a reason her text left it out.

This is my paranoia about not covering everything she would get in public school. I remember my teacher teaching the order to me in school.

[Blessedfamily]

:iagree: I looked through my vast collection of English grammar books and couldn't find any reference to it at all.

Thank you.

[gardening momma]

This is my paranoia about not covering everything she would get in public school. I remember my teacher teaching the order to me in school.
I don't remember ever learning the order in school. I guess I didn't know there was an order. :001_smile: And I like grammar. It was one of my best subjects.

[Julie in MN]

The differences in order in your sources occur, at least according to my text, because they are each based on studies done where they compare native speakers' use to a predicted model.

That was really fun to read. Thanks for detailing all that info!

[Karin]

I'm not a grammar guru, but when I really get serious about writing (not online, as is evident by my many typos, etc) I'm far more concerned about how well it flows--syntax, etc. Even in literary fiction you can even have sentence fragments. I'm not making this up. And not just in dialogue, either.

And, naturally, when you write you never, ever want to overdo adjectives, anyway (I know that's already come up, but I'm using my literary license to reiterate;)). I've never even heard of this type of rule before and would go with what sounds good in this particular case, and what I wanted to emphasize.

[Blessedfamily]

I'm not a grammar guru, but when I really get serious about writing (not online, as is evident by my many typos, etc) I'm far more concerned about how well it flows--syntax, etc. Even in literary fiction you can even have sentence fragments. I'm not making this up. And not just in dialogue, either.

And, naturally, when you write you never, ever want to overdo adjectives, anyway (I know that's already come up, but I'm using my literary license to reiterate;)). I've never even heard of this type of rule before and would go with what sounds good in this particular case, and what I wanted to emphasize.

Oh yes I hope noone ever judged my grammar skills by my posts. I just don't have time to proof them. The idea was not that you would ever use that many adjectives at once, just that when you use more than one, they would have an order based a chart. The over-use of adjectives is explicitly discouraged.

I won't be going into it with dd anymore, other than what sounds natural, but here is the list I originally went to.

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/adjectives.htm (http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/adjectives.htm)

It is called the "Royal Order Of Adjectives", no less(as if by edict). It looks like the one my teacher used with us. You have to scroll just over half way down the page.

[Karin]

Oh yes I hope noone ever judged my grammar skills by my posts. I just don't have time to proof them. The idea was not that you would ever use that many adjectives at once, just that when you use more than one, they would have an order based a chart. It is called the "Royal Order Of Adjectives", no less(as if by edict). It looks like the one my teacher used with us. You have to scroll just over half way down the page.


Oh, yes, I got that, but I like to wax on sometimes:001_smile: I found this thread interesting.

[Blessedfamily]

Oh, yes, I got that, but I like to wax on sometimes:001_smile: I found this thread interesting.

Me too. I learned I need to relax and trust we're covering enough! I'm glad these boards are available. Thanks again. :001_smile: