Science AP in high school: what junior high curriculum to prepare?

[Elinor Everywhere]

I am still agonizing a bit over junior high science. My dd is still on track to be a doctor (ear, nose, & throat specialist), and so we are planning on having her take AP science classes in high school. But for those whose kids are doing this, what did you use in junior high? I don't want to blithely go along assuming she is getting the adequate prep and then discover that AP science is way beyond what we've done.

Currently the plan is for Prentice Hall Science Explorer series through 8th grade. But I've also looked at doing Apologia starting in 6th grade, and then moving her into AP science in 10th or 11th (?). My concern with Apologia in junior high is the math requirement--my dd is right on schedule with math (meaning, not advanced).

I'd love to hear both pros and cons about what you used, or wish you had used. Thank you--I know I'll make a decision and get peace about this eventually! :confused:

[Gwen in VA]

I have some good news -- doing well in science in high school depends mostly on

1) reading -- can your child read a textbook and really LEARN from it?
2) math -- chemistry and physics rely heavily on math

These skills are central to any advanced science class.

My older two kids did several AP sciences in high school. In junior high we used Rainbow Science (easy but enjoyable -- we did it in one year instead of two), BJU's Earth Science, and with my youngest we have varied things and will use Singapore's Integrated Science 7th grade and then Conceptual Physics.

I honestly do NOT think that junior high science is important for the actual material it teaches, but rather for teaching how to learn. I have actually told my dd2, who is currently slogging thru the Earth Science, that I actually don't expect her to remember most of what she is learning five years from now; she should be focusing on learning HOW TO LEARN from a textbook, and the actual earth science is a side issue.

The one additional thing I would add to a good preparatory science curriculum is curiousity. Do you model wondering to your kids? Do you seek answers? Curiousity is the starting point of all scientific investigation and cannot be underrated as part of the scientific process.

I have heard good things about the P-H series; it will probably do well as junior high texts.

This is all JMHO. You will probably receive lots of other pieces of advice, some of which is contradictory. Take what sounds good and leave the rest!

(Due to many many ear complications as a child, I wanted to be an ENT too. Best wishes to your son!)

[Elinor Everywhere]

I have some good news -- doing well in science in high school depends mostly on

1) reading -- can your child read a textbook and really LEARN from it?
2) math -- chemistry and physics rely heavily on math

These skills are central to any advanced science class.


That IS good news! :001_smile: I worry about things...too much sometimes. I don't want to get it wrong! :eek:

We are in week 3 of Prentice Hall Animals, and although I find the text rather boring, my daughter really seems to be enjoying. One thing that I like about it (and that meshes with what you said) is that she is learning to take notes while she's reading it. It's the first textbooky science curricula we've done, and I do think there's value in that. The experiments seem a bit boring, but I'm considering supplementing with a fun type of book (ala Janice VanCleave). I must really say that science isn't nor has ever been my thing. I'd much rather just read about it! So modeling scientific curiosity hasn't been my strong suit. Hmmm. I agree with you; I just squirm at the thought. :ack2:

Thank you for sharing your perspective. It's helpful.

[asta]

Do you want to see an actual AP Biology curriculum that is currently being taught in Phoenix, Arizona?

Go here (http://cmweb.pvschools.net/~mlandry/) and click on the AP Biology links.

High School isn't what it used to be; now it's college. If you want to prepare a jr high student for AP Biology in sr. high, you pretty much have to teach regular biology while they are still in jr. high.



asta

[Grace is Sufficient]

Currently the plan is for Prentice Hall Science Explorer series through 8th grade. But I've also looked at doing Apologia starting in 6th grade, and then moving her into AP science in 10th or 11th (?). My concern with Apologia in junior high is the math requirement--my dd is right on schedule with math (meaning, not advanced).


My son started the Apologia sequence in 6th grade, and math was never an issue until 10th grade, when (having taken General, Physical, Biology and Chemistry) Physics was next in line, but he was still a year away from starting Trig. We solved that by having him take the Anatomy and Physiology course in 10th grade through The Potter's School.

Possibly Chemistry would have been difficult if he had taken the traditional math sequence, which inserts Geometry between Algebra 1 and 2. However, he took Algebra 2 concurrently with Chemistry and had no trouble.

We're going to try to finish what looks to be a very proof-heavy geometry course in less than a year during 10th, and get enough of a head start on Trig to take Physics in 11th, though I'm not sure where... at home... online... CC... ???

HTH

[Brenda in MA]

I honestly do NOT think that junior high science is important for the actual material it teaches, but rather for teaching how to learn. I have actually told my dd2, who is currently slogging thru the Earth Science, that I actually don't expect her to remember most of what she is learning five years from now; she should be focusing on learning HOW TO LEARN from a textbook, and the actual earth science is a side issue.


Gwen,

I have been thinking about this issue concerning my 12 yo who is using Rainbow Science now. What are you doing in particular to teach your 12 yo how to learn from the Earth Science textbook?

Brenda

[FloridaLisa]

I am in no way an AP expert, but my ds found it helpful to have completed the high school level biology (not junior high) as well as chemistry before taking AP Bio. I was really amazed at the sheer volume of information as well as the biochemistry the kids had to learn. Here is his schedule so far, FWIW:

8th: Apologia biology
9th: Apologia chemistry
10th: AP biology
11th: Physics, honors (on-line)(current)
12th: AP Chemistry (hopefully)

HTH,
Lisa

[Michelle in AL]

:iagree: With Lisa, True AP high school biology now is what we took in college plus more. I don't know if Apologia would fit that description or not since I haven't used it. The texts I thought prepared my dd's well for biology are Glencoe Life Science for middle school or BJU Life Science (there was a fair amount in this book that I disagreed with in regards to creation theories~I thought they presented a very slanted view, but the remainder was a challenging text) and Real Science for Kids Chemistry level 2 to prepare for the biochemistry portion.

[Gwen in VA]

High School isn't what it used to be; now it's college. If you want to prepare a jr high student for AP Biology in sr. high, you pretty much have to teach regular biology while they are still in jr. high.

I sort of agree with that, but not completely.

Some AP courses require the student to have taken a high school - level course in the subject already. (AP Chem through PAH does this.) That means that if the student doesn't double up on science, he/she can only really do one AP science while doing the three "standard" science classes (bio, chem, and physics).

Some AP courses do not require prior exposure to the material (for example, the ones available through Scholars Online), and I know personally kids who have done well on AP science exams who had no prior classes in the subject.

To some extent, whether or not your child needs a class in the subject before doing an AP subject depends on how hard your child is willing to work. I have heard that AP bio requires a minimum of two hours per day.....Maybe it would require less if a student had a strong background in bio, but maybe not. My kids did AP chem and physics, so I have no personal experience with the AP bio. I do know that my kids got 5's on the AP physics B exam with no prior experience in physics and with only doing about 45 minutes per day for the class.

Like usual, I think it all depends......

[Nan in Mass]

Youngest did Singapore Integrated 7th, then Conceptual Physics, and it was mostly about applying math to science and learning to deal with textbook questions and their unspecified assumptions (invisible to those of us who went to public school here). The most real science prep we did was all the natural history, nature guides, nature journals, and scientific method stuff we did in elementary school. We're probably not going to do AP, but CC classes instead.
-Nan

[Gwen in VA]

What are you doing in particular to teach your 12 yo how to learn from the Earth Science textbook?

Dd2 is my fourth, and several of her older siblings are fantastic students who just don't "do" outlining, so for better or worse, outside of history, dd2 is not being subject to a rigorous course in outlining. I have fought all the battles over outlining that I intend to fight!

We go over the questions in the text orally. This helps her to figure out wht the authors consider "important." I ask her to study the material prior to taking the test, providing little guidance on how to do so -- I want her to develop a method that works for her. After she takes the test closed-book, I grade it and then giver her a chance to answer all the things she got wrong again, open-book this time.

We are just finishing up the fifth chapter, but I have been really iimpressed at how much her oral answers have improved -- she no longer needs to look up much in the text. She "knows" what type of material is important -- obviously the high-lighted words, but also general concepts. She has discovered how impmortant the figures are!

Her grades on the closed-book tests have improved a fair amount, but on the open-book she can now get 98%, which means she knows how to get the material from the book. And when she absoluttely can't find an answer, I step in. What section(s) are relevant? Has she used the glossary? Has she used the word list at the end of the chapter?

She was not doing as well as her siblings had in the first chapter or two, but she is catching on quickly.

[Beth in SW WA]

[But I've also looked at doing Apologia starting in 6th grade,

Ds 8th is doing Bio this year (not Apologia). If the interest is there, I don't see how it would be a problem if your dc started in middle school. Our plan:

7th: Apologia General
8th: Bio Exploring Life w/ Thinkwell lectures
9th: Apologia Chem w/ TTC lecture series
10th: Physics w/ lab
11th: Advanced Bio at CC
12th: ?

[Sandra in FL]

did your dc take?

Thanks,
Sandra

[Gwen in VA]

I can't recommend what we used. If you want more info, contact me privately.

[Brenda in MA]

Dd2 is my fourth, and several of her older siblings are fantastic students who just don't "do" outlining, so for better or worse, outside of history, dd2 is not being subject to a rigorous course in outlining. I have fought all the battles over outlining that I intend to fight!

We go over the questions in the text orally. This helps her to figure out wht the authors consider "important." I ask her to study the material prior to taking the test, providing little guidance on how to do so -- I want her to develop a method that works for her. After she takes the test closed-book, I grade it and then giver her a chance to answer all the things she got wrong again, open-book this time.

We are just finishing up the fifth chapter, but I have been really iimpressed at how much her oral answers have improved -- she no longer needs to look up much in the text. She "knows" what type of material is important -- obviously the high-lighted words, but also general concepts. She has discovered how impmortant the figures are!

Her grades on the closed-book tests have improved a fair amount, but on the open-book she can now get 98%, which means she knows how to get the material from the book. And when she absoluttely can't find an answer, I step in. What section(s) are relevant? Has she used the glossary? Has she used the word list at the end of the chapter?

She was not doing as well as her siblings had in the first chapter or two, but she is catching on quickly.

Gwen,

This description is very helpful. I was planning on having my to be 8th grader use Conceptual Physics next year, and I think I'll try some variation of this.

This year, he is using Rainbow Science, and he is making vocabulary cards of the bold words. He spends 5 - 10 minutes reviewing the cards each day, and he has no troubling acing the quizzes. I think I need to put this basic idea more into his lap to implement next year.

Thanks again,
Brenda

[ChemMommy]

....I wish that they had better math skills. Hands down, that's the first thing I'd wish for.

I wish that they knew HOW to study from a book. Most don't bother reading the $180 book they bought.

I wish they had real work ethics. The average amount of time spent in hs studying for a chem test, they reported to me, was 20 minutes!! So, they come to college and study for an hour and feel like they've done a lot of prep work, only to fail the exam.

I wish they knew how to take effective lecture notes. I'll say something very important but not necessarily write it down, and students won't notice. I have to say things like "you should write that down" or "that's really an important point".

I wish they knew when to go get help rather than waiting until, literally this morning, 12 minutes before the exam to ask for clarification on a MAJOR point that I spent more than one lecture developing!

BTW, this is a private 4-year college, too!

[Elinor Everywhere]

I really appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts & high school plans, especially the schedules by year. I'm going to borrow a friend's Apologia book and go through it, which should help my indecision on that point. I still like the fact that with the Prentice Hall book my dd is getting quite a lot of exposure to note-taking, outlining, and is learning study habits. Although we've narrated for years and done a few history outlines, this is the first time she has truly *studied* for a test. It'll be interesting to see how she does.

I'm still rereading and pondering everything you've all written, and a teeny plan is emerging: continue PH for 6th, start Apologia in 7th, and work through them so she can take at least 2 AP classes in high school. I would assume she'd need the Bio AP (if she still wants to go into medicine), and then maybe chemistry.

Part of my mind still can't believe I have a child old enough for me to be thinking in this way. Why couldn't she have just stayed 10? :tongue_smilie:

[Elinor Everywhere]

Do you want to see an actual AP Biology curriculum that is currently being taught in Phoenix, Arizona?

Go here (http://cmweb.pvschools.net/~mlandry/) and click on the AP Biology links.

High School isn't what it used to be; now it's college. If you want to prepare a jr high student for AP Biology in sr. high, you pretty much have to teach regular biology while they are still in jr. high.



asta

Asta,

Thank you for bringing this up! Campbell's Biology is something I've been looking at too--I'm waiting to try and find a used one so I can go through it before making a decision. It sure looks advanced--since history/english is more my thing, I'd probably need to outsource this (which my dd would love). Arrgggh. Can't somebody just come to my house & tutor my kid in science?? :rolleyes:

[FloridaLisa]

....I wish that they had better math skills. Hands down, that's the first thing I'd wish for.


Thanks for the real-world feedback, ChemMommy! Can you elaborate on what you'd like to see with their math? I'm assuming most of these students were hard hitters in high school (pre-med at private 4-yr college). What caused the holes?

Thanks!
Lisa

[ChemMommy]

Thanks for the real-world feedback, ChemMommy! Can you elaborate on what you'd like to see with their math? I'm assuming most of these students were hard hitters in high school (pre-med at private 4-yr college). What caused the holes?

Thanks!
Lisa

I would like to see kids that are prepared to start Calculus I in the first semester of college. These kids will have gotten through a decently rigorous trig program and have likely internalized most of algebra by the start of college. I would like them to be able to graph or solve trig problems without an advanced calculator, too!

Students who need the semester of pre-calc have a very low probability of getting through a chemistry or physics major. They will probably be able to finish a bio major. They will more likely be a weak pre-med candidate.

What we see over and over again is that students have MEMORIZED a template for solving problems in math during the high school years. But that only works if the problem you present to them looks just like one of the templates they have memorized. The students have little UNDERSTANDING of how math works and so are not particularly strong problem-solvers.

It is FAR better to have a student who approaches math in high school with the desire to learn HOW the math works rather than it is to have a student with only the desire just to get the credit and a decent grade. That's were the work ethic comes in! I hope that by homeschooling my kids, they will be people who know how to teach themselves something new and will have a greater desire for understanding than they have a desire for a grade.

Sadly, high school chemistry in our state is now required for graduation so it has been "dumbed" down quite a bit. We now start the class, assuming that the student has no memory of chemical concepts.

What troubles me, though, is when they can't solve 2 = 9/x (the variable in the denominator)!! This is a very, VERY common question we get--from good high school students who are pre-meds at a private 4-year college. The public college down the road from us actually told me to drastically lower the rigor of my course when I taught for them--their students couldn't handle it. Ouch!!!!

And now, how have the homeschooled kids done in my classes: they are more mature, have better communication skills, good work ethic......BUT far worse math backgrounds than their ps peers.

Homeschoolers in general are better thinkers but worse mathematicians. So, push those rigorous upper-level math classes, ladies!!!

P.S. I'll answer chem questions for people, too!:001_smile:

[FloridaLisa]

What troubles me, though, is when they can't solve 2 = 9/x (the variable in the denominator)!!


Yeah! I know how to solve the x! Whew. :tongue_smilie:

I appreciate your input. I've printed off for ds to read.

Lisa

[Moni]

have some good news -- doing well in science in high school depends mostly on

1) reading -- can your child read a textbook and really LEARN from it?
2) math -- chemistry and physics rely heavily on math


I agree and have found that contrary to some opinions .. :glare:. .you don't need to "do science" in jr high in order to "do science" in high school. :)