Already feeling like a rat deserting a sinking ship...

[Blueridge]

I know myself well enough to recognize the symptoms I experience every year. Nothing seems like I anticipated it would be. The big bucks I spent for curriculum are long gone. Only the receipts and book piles remain. Why do I do this to myself? I am telling myself that maybe this year is different, and that my choice was really a desperate attempt to keep some of my teaching time for my younger ones. They always get lost in the shuffle. My 10th grader is, frankly, bored to death. So am I. After pondering back and forth for months between TOG volume 2, Cornerstone Curriculum and SL, I finally decided on SL 200. I had high hopes that it would be full of wonderful discussions for the two of us. Actually, our time each afternoon is watered down to me asking really stupid factual questions like 'What is the difference between Creationism and Traducianism?'. I have no idea what the themes are about. I can't possibly find the time to read every book in the core. Not possible. So, there we sit each afternoon as I ask dumb questions about subjects I have no understanding in, and wait as she grasps for the fleeting memory of her morning reading, before promptly dumping her brain of all the countless facts in preparation for tomorrow's same routine. I hate this. My dd is SO smart. What am I doing wrong? I want her to love the history as well as the literature she reads. We used TOG last year but we all felt kinda burned out with the pace. So is there any hope for me to find a high school program that I can have peace about? Ideas? Pretty please? I can make a transition after the Christmas break. Many thanks~
Ginger

[Moira in MA]

No great insights but I do offer sympathy and hugs. Home education is really tough, especially when you have children spread over a wide age range. But even at my lowest, I repeatedly come to the conclusion that the education my dds are getting at home is streets ahead of what they would be getting in public school.

On more detailed points: do you have to have discussions each afternoon? Maybe email discussion of one topic would allow greater thought. Or could it be more of a dinner time thing with your spouse available to participate? As recommended by SL, could you get your pastor involved?

[Cindy in Indy]

...when I read your question. The subject line is TWEM, and the OP is Nan in Mass. You can search for it on the high school board, but I will paste her comments below:

We are loving using this. We modified it to fit us, though, and I thought it might be helpful to other people who want to try it if I explained what we do for each book. We are going through the rhetoric literature list in roughly chronological order, doing a Shakespeare any time we need a break, or some poetry, or a fun modern short story. Every year, we have also done something un-great-books, like read Sophie's World. Before we began, I read How to Read Literature Like a Professor and gave it to my son to read. I also read some of Reading Strands. Reading Strands was short and very helpful. It contains example Socratic-method conversations for different ages, and a list of literary terms and their definitions. TWTM recommends it if you are insecure about teaching literature. At the beginning of every year, I read the list of vocab and try to make sure I use some of it so my children will be familiar with terms like setting and alliteration. The Harp and Laurel Wreath is a poetry anthology that has terms and defs in it, also. Sometimes we read some of that and try to use some of the terms. We read the books aloud together, mostly, which is slow but much more fun, so you can picture us cuddled up on the sofa in front of the fire with the dog on our feet, or lying on the dock tossing crumbs to the fish and paddling our feet in the lake, trying not to get a headache from reading in the sun.

For each book:

-We look up the book in TWEM (gives the date) and put the date on a timeline and the book on a map.
-We read about the year (and a few in either direction usually) in the timeline book recommended by TWTM - The Timetables of History. This is quick and fascinating.
-We take a quick look at Wikipaedia and see why the book is a great book. Usually Wiki says in the first paragraph or two.
-We read a bit of the introduction to find out something about the history behind the book, the translation, and the author.
-We read the book, taking notes if necessary. I try to encourage the children to write in the margins, things like "Wow!" or "How awful!" or "Cool!" or "Wrong!". Sometimes they have longer, more complicated observations and I have them make a note of them in their notes. Sometimes we have an idea, like trying to write a description of our friends like the ones appearing at the beginning of The Iliad, and we'll stop and do that. We discuss the book as we read it. This isn't usually on a very high level; they tend to notice similarities to Star Trek or gymnastics, argue over how a strange custom might fit into a culture, notice a bit of beautiful language, or wonder about the translation of a word. The nice part is that they notice the things themselves, usually, and as time has gone on, sometimes I'm completely silent and the discussion takes place between my two sons. And these are typical, non-academic-minded, not terribly interested in literature boys. This is why we read aloud together. Sometimes they notice something that would make a good paper and I point that out and they make a note about it for later.
-We read the genre section in TWEM if we haven't done it recently. This tells us how the book into the continuum of western literature.
-We answer the questions in the genre section. These fall into three parts: grammar stage - who did what to whom when how and why, logic stage - how the book is put together and how the author made his point, and rhetoric stage - what it means to us and what we think of it. These are amazing questions! As you go through them, books that you thought were mediocre but kept reading because TWTM said to suddenly become interesting and awe-inspiring. Some of the questions are short to answer, but some require quite long discussions before we decide what we think, even for us! I encourage everyone to look back through the book or their notes to find answers or to find proof or examples.
-We write something or do a project. By the time we get done with the questions, the children usually have an idea of what they want to do - try making a model reed boat for Gilgamesh, write a comparison of comedy through the ages after reading The Birds (using Fierce Creatures and Pirates of Penzance for the other works), make a drawing of all the circles of hell for The Inferno, write about how you would make Everyman appealing to modern audiences by setting it in the gangs of LA, ...

And that is it.

TWEM is fun to read, but you don't have to wade through the first half of the book to try it out. Get the book, pick a short work - a poem or a short play or short story, read the genre section, answer the questions, and see how it goes. If it works for your family, THEN you can go back and read some of the rest of the book. It is a fantastic method of studying literature. It works with everything from Gilgamesh to The Communist Manefesto to The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I hate to see it not even being tried because people aren't quite sure how to apply it to teenagers.

HTH
-Nan

Last edited by Nan in Mass; 04-17-2008 at 05:50 PM. Reason: Forgot timeline book

Perhaps you could use Nan's method (modifying it to fit your situation) to read the SL books you have. It might add meaning to your discussions. It would be so much better to go deep with a FEW great books, than to surface-skim MANY, without taking time to understand. It seems like her method would promote good conversations.

Hope it helps,
Cindy in Indy

[Chris in VA]

I know you can return Sonlight and still get your $ back.

Have you thought about using Omnibus? There are factual questions, but also really good, meaty, discussion-provoking questions. The readings are fairly interesting, and, paired with Spielvogel, give a great picture of the time. You can discard some of the reading if you find the pace too quick. It's only $110 (that's with postage), and the books are available in the library. The course is for 3 credits. Your child will be reading a lot, but you will not have to read with her.
Might be worth a try.

[Blueridge]

Ladies! I'm so glad I checked back here before heading off to bed! I appreciate you giving me some encouragement and wonderful suggestions to ponder! Wow. Blessings~
Ginger

[Jan P.]

Hey Ginger,

I can certainly relate to you. Last year I purchased The Literary Lessons from the Lord of the Rings and this year I bought Omnibus II. I have had the same trouble with both curriculums. I don't have the time to do the daily questions nor do I feel like spending tons of time on "factual" type questions. My dd was bored with the Eusebius book and it was taking way too much time to read it. I've jumped several books and have landed with Beowulf with her. I've decided to use Omnibus more as a resource than as a curriculum. I will dip in and out of it. In fact, most of the time my dc don't like discussing literature with me. It has been discouraging. I do own the Reading Strands book, TWEM, and of course TWTM. To be honest, I keep coming back to TWTM methodology. It is so simple and straight forward. I recently bought a couple of art books that I want my dc to make timeline books. I'm hoping for more casual discussions of books. We might not get to "meaty" books, but hopefully we will still hit many on TWTM's list. My dc prefer fiction, so the long primary documents are sometimes too "boring" to them. I'm thinking that in the future I might simply have them read shorter nonfiction works and work up to longer works even if they are only biographies.

I hope you can work things out. Let us know how it goes.

[danielle]

That's my main philosophy as we move into high school. We're continuing with the 4 year history/lit rotation --dd's choice. I advocated for Brit/American lit etc. as a better parallel for AP tests,but no go for her. I am reading the stuff on the list that interests me, and have recruited several other adults to have coffee with her and discuss works they were interested in. But I decided to come up with essay topics and let her choose and work on them. I also encourage her to enter various essay contests, using the books she's reading as examples. She has to read a minimum of 15 works and write two 8 page essays per term or one 16 page essay per term or one 30+ page paper for the year (this year, she'll pick the shorter ones, is my guess) If it gives you any ideas, here's the essay topics I came up with for ancients:

Possible topics for essays:

1. Select a segment of society (e.g., women, artists, musicians, children, underclass, tradesman, military). Describe their status across several societies. Argue which society has the best opportunities for human fulfillment (and how do you define human fulfillment?)

2. What is the ideal government? Describe options in several societies. Synthesize an ideal government based on your readings. What makes for a responsible rule or ruler? What makes for responsible citizens or populace?

3. What is beauty or art? Discuss the attitudes in several societies.

4. How should the poor, sick or disturbed be treated? Draw examples and principles from your readings.

5. What should be the role of religion in public life?

6. What role would you have liked in a specific society? Why?

7. Describe the political changes in a society over a specific period of time. What caused these changes? Were the changes positive or negative?

8. Is revenge ever the right thing to desire and do? Is it possible to forgive? Who benefits from forgiveness? Draw examples from your readings.

9. What is a hero/heroine? Does it vary depending on the society? The conditions (e.g. can you be a hero during war time, but not in peace time?) Is there a difference between courage and heroism? Can heroes be afraid? Can heroic acts be immoral?

10. Should we judge historic personages (actual or literary) by their own times or standards of morality, or by ours, or by some universal standard? Are there universal standards?

Danielle

[Cathy in TX]

I really like your essay topic ideas! Thanks for sharing them.

[Blueridge]

I was inspired by your comments. You ladies are so creative. I got my copy of TWEM off the shelf and was impressed by all the apple green wax pencil notes I had already made in it. I had started on my quest for self education a few years ago...too bad I didn't get past Don Quixote. :D Maybe I'm just too easily intimidated by my lack of ideas and inspiration. I do best with a nice, prepared, tidy (safe) plan that I can dismantle. Too bad those are usually so dry. Today has been much the same here...my little girls and I had a wonderful school time together this morning. I saw my 15dd briefly at lunch, and then she went back to the porch to continue her reading. I guess I miss valuable interaction her. I want to be a mentor of sorts, but I don't feel adequate. Oh well, I'm back to pondering. Have a great afternoon~
Ginger

[Cindy in Indy]

That's my main philosophy as we move into high school. We're continuing with the 4 year history/lit rotation --dd's choice. I advocated for Brit/American lit etc. as a better parallel for AP tests,but no go for her. I am reading the stuff on the list that interests me, and have recruited several other adults to have coffee with her and discuss works they were interested in. But I decided to come up with essay topics and let her choose and work on them. I also encourage her to enter various essay contests, using the books she's reading as examples. She has to read a minimum of 15 works and write two 8 page essays per term or one 16 page essay per term or one 30+ page paper for the year (this year, she'll pick the shorter ones, is my guess) If it gives you any ideas, here's the essay topics I came up with for ancients:


Danielle

Wow, Danielle. I like your approach! Have you given your daughter specific instruction on how to construct a longer essay? (I don't know what my son would do for an 8-page esssay!) What resources have you used to teach essay-writing?

Does your daughter choose the books from the WTM list? Other? Does she decide which essay topic to write about before reading, so she can make notes as she goes? Or does she go back after the fact to look up supporting information in the books?

Great essay questions!

Cindy in Indy

[Laurel-in-CA]

This is my 2nd time thru Core 200, and last time I was "leading' a discussion with 3 kids, 2 of whom never talked. Sigh. I ended up using (and assigning) Wikipedia research on interesting tangents, then having dd summarize or further research. For instance, Ramsay Scallop (last week's reading) mentioned Cathars. We looked them up and had ds write a summary of the article. Also, the Sonlight Upper Cores forum has some tests, written by a mom, for several of the books/topics in Core 200. Very helpful, at least for getting ds to study a bit more.

I have two high schoolers, and I aim to have an hour-plus of discussion with each one twice/week--all on different tracks, unfortunately. Sometimes it's over the essay they've already written. Sometimes it's multiple choice questions that were in the study guide. Sometimes it's on what they think of the author/book or some heresy mentioned in SL200. I can't guarantee the quality of the discussion, but I can work to make sure we do have it, and then build on that. And I can keep them writing consistently and review that.

So much of high school is about *my* self-discipline.

So, now I have to go find another mysteriously missing SL 200 book at the library so ds can keep up with the reading. Hope some of this helps a bit.

[FloridaLisa]

Have you thought at all about inviting a couple of other highschoolers to join in your lit studies? I've found our book discussions are just so much meatier when we have a small group. It's work, but you are already putting in work to do it with your dd. And you might even be able to lighten your load if you ask each parent to take on part of the study. Meet at a library or rotate living rooms, throw in a light snack and you could really liven up the discussion.

Just another thought ~
Lisa

[Blueridge]

Thank you all for continued helpful suggestions! I have been leaning towards having our discussion times once or twice a week, simply because the daily routine just isn't meaty or interesting enough. She is so faithful to come down around 3 each afternoon, and I proceed to flip through my IG and ask questions...and watch her search her mind for answers. But, due to the factual nature of every question, I don't think she would remember the readings from Monday if we waited until Friday to go over things. That is the dilemma, her reading and then simply 'cramming' for the answers. The material hasn't drawn her in, so to speak. I want more and she does, too. Maybe the content will get more interesting over time? We're only on week 7. We don't know any other high schoolers in the local area but I sure wish we did! I think it boils down to the point of me feeling very inadequate with the topics because I haven't read the history myself. I know moms who find the time to do this, but I haven't found that kind of time. School is a part of my life, but not my life entirely, ya know? ;) This is the reason I decided against the WWWW from Cornerstone, because I couldn't carry on a substantive conversation about Aristotle without doing all the readings myself, so I am frustrated with myself and SL, too. I am a slow reader to boot,...still on Don Quixote 2 years later ha ha, so I need some hand holding (like the TOG teacher notes, but that program as a whole really wiped me out). I am still wondering if the two of us could carry off a TWEM program together. Ladies, thank you for letting me ramble and vent a little. I just wanted her high school years to be neat and planned, with no regrets. All other subjects are going well, but she is completely self teaching in biology, Latin, Algebra 2, Sat prep, Music, etc. So the history and Bible are the only subjects I can really 'fit' into with her. Maybe I'll just try harder to understand the topics instead of saying 'HUH?' :confused: Blessings~
Ginger

[MicheleinMN]

I used the Kolbe literature lesson plans for my 9th and 10th graders. They have discussion questions (and answers for the parents) for each weekly reading assignment. www.kolbe.org there are sample pages available.

HTH,
Michele

[danielle]

Cindy,
Essay writing has been a challenge here, as in every house! I'm not sure I taught it very effectively, and we are definitely still working on it. The two most helpful things to dd were a book called, "The Five Paragraph Essay" (it was an e-book) and Inspiration software. Inspiration lets you put down all your thoughts, then link them, then hit a button and it gives you an essay which looks ridiculous but you can revise. (like a computerized mind-map) I learned the mind-map technique years ago (on paper) from "Writing the Natural Way" and always use it before making an outline or writing anything.

Mostly, I think, she's been raised in the family tradition of hashing out opinions on everything--her dad shouts at the tv, raves on while listening to NPR, and we both write letters to the editor, letters to elected officials, attend and analyze local public hearings on a variety of issues. Picking apart arguments, discussing points of history, and comparing government policy compared to other countries is a regular dinner conversation around here. I'm a real lit buff, and dh is nuts on all types of history. As I say, he can remember the name of General Lee's horse better than my name. I hate to say it, but when she was younger, some of her opinions were dumb and boring, and she was told so. It created a desire to learn how to support her point of view so that it would pass parental scrutiny. We have a fair amount of dinner parties, and if she wanted to be allowed to participate, she had to have something interesting to say in order to get a word in edgewise.

I've been a freelance writer for many years, and I'm not the nicest mommy in the world. I've generally gone over her papers with a liberal red pencil and she just hates to see all that ink. But on the other hand, now that she's older I pay her the compliment of arguing with her ideas. I pound her with questions like: does this make sense based on what you said before? Says who (where's your reference)? This intro doesn't grab me, this ending is weak, you're wandering here, etc. Maybe not so positive, but much nicer than many of my professors or editors! My standard is what's good writing, not what's good for a 14 year old. (She complains about this a lot.) And we go out and talk before she writes. I have to be very careful not to give her ideas as I don't want to see her simply parrot my opinions.

Finally, I try to find things that will engage her and be meaningful. I think most teens are trying to sort out their place in the world and what matters, and the classics can really help with that if they're made meaningful. When I was her age, a lot of this stuff seemed dry and dusty to me, but now I see it as much more relevant. I want to make it relevant to her. For example, one of our friends remarked to me that he went back and re-read Thucydides when the U.S. entered Iraq, because he wanted to re-think whether a democracy could ever justify invasion. That turning to classics is exactly what I think an ideal education should be. (He went to Columbia.)

Occasionally in previous years she's been asked to read a paper out loud at family dinner, where we can discuss it. I really like reading aloud to determine language flow, also.

Finally, because I write a lot, she's seen that it's routine to rewrite something 7 or 8 times. After a few examples of watching me in action, she doesn't object as much to revising.

Those are my best "practical" tips. I'm not sure writing can so much be taught as encouraged.
Danielle

[Jean in Wisc]

I'm beginning to love these discussions. Usually the kids have a few questions they were required to answer (history, literature, and other classes). When I have not read the assignment, I consider this my time to learn new things! I read the question they were suppose to answer, and then when they answer with a short, clipped version, I start letting myself get interested in the discussion and ask all sorts of questions.

"O.K. I've not read this. Tell me about it."

"Hm. I don't understand something here...explain this better."

"Oh, so this and then that...and he said...do I have it right?"

"Hey, that is really interesting."

"What do you know about the author." or "What was happening at this time in history that affected what was going on." or....

Just probe them for information. Ask them if they agree or where they found points that the author had it "all wrong". Is the author coming from a Christian point of view (or whatever point of view you want to ask about)? Take time to learn---what better way to prepare yourself for the next time you have to teach it, and any one who has to teach the subject is going to learn more, too.

And did I tell you, it is FUN being the student?

Jean

[Blueridge]

Jean, great ideas! I will try this today! I think I can play this game pretty well! ;) Really, everyone, you have all been so helpful to me. Thanks so much for your pearls of wisdom.
Ginger

[laughing lioness]

Just want to second that we are loving Omnibus. There are a variety of discussion questions, activities, recitations, etc with a good answer key for those of us who haven't read everything. I've found that each book or chapter reading has a "theme" and is usually quite thought provoking. Last month, my ds studied "heresies." While he had an opinion formed before hand about what that meant, the reading and discussion and writing took it up a notch. Lot's of writing assignments. It's been a good fit here.
Of course you've had other excellent suggestions/ideas too :001_smile:

[momofgals]

We are doing Core 200 this year, and we discuss only once every week or two. DD does write down the answers to the questions for the history portion (she is taking an Eng comp class, so the literature portion is just for fun), so that she has to process them twice - once directly after she reads and again when we discuss.

I did buy a copy of the History of Christianity book for me, and I read it a bit at a time b/c I am trying to understand some of this history. As for meaningful time together, I try to do things other than school with this dd b/c that seems to be when we have the time to talk about life issues.

[Blueridge]

Things went a bit better yesterday. While the girls and I were making maple sugar candies, my 15dd said, "Well, this is what I read this morning...". She gave me a brief summary and I acted interested. ;) I made a comment or two, and she seemed to have understanding. Then we talked about things other than school! Interesting that we had a phone call while I was furiously pouring the cooling candy into molds, and she was told she was a finalist in a Brio Magazine writing contest. So, we have plenty to talk about these days! I think I'm going to try a low-key approach and not worry so much. Too hard on myself sometimes. Does anyone else struggle with this tendency? It's probably that I'm getting old and seeing time passing too quickly. We're going to start spending more time discussing her current events topics and weekly writing assignments and I will attempt to be satisfied with an oral overview of history...at least for this month. Then I may be making a few new purchases! :D I welcome your wisdom and appreciate it so much!
Ginger

[momee]

We were using SL 200 for 9 weeks and switched to TOG.

That is not to say you should switch.

My ds really enjoyed SL 200. I felt he wasn't learning enough. Each time we had discussions, I felt he wasn't retaining all the information. I felt many of the topics were over his head and he wasn't mature enough to understand them, spiritually.

Now that we're into TOG for 9 weeks I really can see the benefit of both. With SL he was reading on his own, understanding just enough to be familiar with the theological questions to answer them thoughtfully. The literature was holding his interest and he was able to do it well.

With TOG he's having to do more work and is held accountable for more information in our discussions. This isn't a plus all the time though.

The enjoyment factor was higher with SL and I now get to my point.

I think it's incredible that your ds is able to do the work independently and able to comprehend enough to want to discuss things with you. It is church history after all, how exciting can that really be on a daily basis?

I think from what I've read that you all are doing well. It's hard to move from teaching to guiding an independent learner. Sounds like she's doing well with it.

Encourage her as you did with the interest and challenge her to teach you.

She sounds like quite a girl!;)

[Blueridge]

Thank you. That was very encouraging. We sound as though our experiences with SL are very similar. I bought TOG 2 early this year since I had planned to use it, but it's still in it's box...I feel that it would be more work for us both, but possibly more fruitful, KWIM? Are you glad you switched? I am going to give SL a few more weeks and then, if I still feel unsatisfied with our experience, I am going to have a good long talk with her about it all. We may keep the SL literature and go with TOG for history. But then, there I go again. ;) These days just fly by too fast, and I want warm, valuable memories of our times together. Blessings to you~
Ginger