Copying audio CDs from the library?

[melissel]

I was mentioning in public to a friend a few days ago that I had made a copy of an audiobook from the library because my DD loved it so much, and she looked a little nervous and said I shouldn't say things like that out loud if I wanted to keep doing it (mostly jokingly, of course). But it got me thinking--pretty much everyone I know who has the capability and knowledge to do so copies CDs from friends, their own, library versions etc. Does everybody do this, or am I am a member of a particularly unethical crowd? I'm not selling copies or anything, just making personal copies so I can return my DD's favorites to the library. WDYT?

[kdeno]

Many, many people do. My husband is adamant about not using software, copying cds etc that do not belong to us. I do not think you are unusually unethical but you may want to rethink?

Kari

[Kathy in MD]

If it wasn't available new, I'd look for a used copy. If I couldn't find it used, then I'd think about copying it, but I don't know that I would.

[Lizzie in Ma]

I do make back-up copies of my own purchased cds in case anything happens to the original but I always thought it was a form of stealing to copy something someone else paid for? KWIM?

[Ellie]

and I would say it isn't ethical, either. It doesn't matter whether you are making copies for someone else or just for yourself; the end result is that you are not paying the copyright holder for his work.

[kdeno]

I just wanted to clarify that although I do not think it is ethical to copy someone else's work without payment I wanted to answer Melissa's question: I do not think Melissa is a member of a particularly unethical group.

Kari

[melissel]

I just wanted to clarify that although I do not think it is ethical to copy someone else's work without payment I wanted to answer Melissa's question: I do not think Melissa is a member of a particularly unethical group.

Kari

Thank you Kari :o I'll have to give it some more thought, I guess. I never really thought too much about it, I guess, because I grew up in the age when everything was copied--cassette to cassette, radio to cassette, CD to cassette, and now CD to CD.

and I would say it isn't ethical, either. It doesn't matter whether you are making copies for someone else or just for yourself; the end result is that you are not paying the copyright holder for his work.

To play devil's advocate though, couldn't you say the same about the book/curriculum resale market? For every resource sold on the sale and swap board here (and on eBay and Half.com), that's a resource the copyright owner doesn't get paid for.

Oops, crying toddler...

[kdeno]

A friend was doing a Bible study with me and lent me a christian CD and I said "Great! I will copy it!" and she was horrified. A week ago my husband was asking a music director for a church about some CDs and he said "Don't buy those, I have them all on my Ipod and you can have the CDs since I do not use them anymore" Same problem. Needless to say we didn't accept the CDs.

There is a lot of photocopying of TMs and WBs out there that are not meant to be reproduced. Friends now know not to bother to run off a few copies for me. I guess that is a whole other can of worms.....

I hope your baby settles in :-)

[melissel]

A friend was doing a Bible study with me and lent me a christian CD and I said "Great! I will copy it!" and she was horrified.

LOL! A Christian CD, no less. I'm interested to see what the rest of the discussion looks like here. I'll be thinking more about the whole thing, for sure.

And thanks, she'd bonked her nose :( She gets goofy when she's tired, and bedtime's rapidly approaching.

[Renee in FL]

To play devil's advocate though, couldn't you say the same about the book/curriculum resale market? For every resource sold on the sale and swap board here (and on eBay and Half.com), that's a resource the copyright owner doesn't get paid for.

It's different - it's the same item. If you were buying the CDs used, then the comparison would be the same. In this case, copying means that an *extra* copy exists that they never get paid for - if someone copies for themselves then sells the originals, that is still unethical.

[Canada_Mom]

What about two friends sharing a curriculum?

A friend purchased a geography curriculum and agreed to share it with me. It's not something we each do daily, or even weekly for that matter so sharing is relatively easy... just a matter of driving the book back and forth. We do not intend to use it at the same time, but only one of us will have paid for it. We would both be using the activities inside. Is this wrong too? Where is the line drawn for publishers to get what is due to them and homeschooling friends to help each other save a bit of money??

This has been bothering me for some time. I feel like it's wrong to borrow any kind of book with all these copyright laws these days... :eek:

[kdeno]

Just kidding!!!

I think it depends on the curriculum. Some are "not for redistribution". I hope someone else chimes in who knows. Some items usually called consumable (Saxon Worktexts etc) are not to be copied but I think the TM could be shared. clear as mud :-) :eek:

[Deidre in GA]

Thank you Kari :o I'll have to give it some more thought, I guess. I never really thought too much about it, I guess, because I grew up in the age when everything was copied--cassette to cassette, radio to cassette, CD to cassette, and now CD to CD.

and that generation's ethic was screwed up about this. it was ALWAYS illegal to copy vinyl to cassette, cassette to cassette, CD to cassette, and CD to CD, if the copies were given away to someone else. radio to cassette was never a big deal because the audio quality of radio compared to the original is so inferior that no one bothered all that much. when music went digital, copying really became an issue because digital copies are perfect.


To play devil's advocate though, couldn't you say the same about the book/curriculum resale market? For every resource sold on the sale and swap board here (and on eBay and Half.com), that's a resource the copyright owner doesn't get paid for.


the difference here is that at least there is 1 copy that the copyright owner was paid for and it only is in the hands of 1 person at a time. if two people care enough to want to own a book at the same time, the copyright owner needs to be compensated. with digital copies, only 1 copy may be paid for while hundreds (thousands?) may be simultaneously owned without the copyright owner being paid.

i do copy audiobook CDs from the library and delete them as soon as I am done. i do think this comes under fair use; i am merely shifting how i listen to the media. unlike kids, i don't listen to books over and over. if my child had an audiobook that was liked enough to remain in our home library beyond the normal time limit of library lending, i would feel obliged to purchase it.

[Karenciavo]

i do copy audiobook CDs from the library and delete them as soon as I am done. i do think this comes under fair use; i am merely shifting how i listen to the media. unlike kids, i don't listen to books over and over. if my child had an audiobook that was liked enough to remain in our home library beyond the normal time limit of library lending, i would feel obliged to purchase it.

I do this too. I've noticed some libraries now offer digital downloads of audio books that self-delete after they are due back (3 or 4 weeks.)

[WTMindy]

it is not legal to copy CD's and so I do not do it. I will put it on my Mp3 player for a short time, but then I delete in when I turn the music back in. It is not illegal to sell and buy used books.

[Canada_Mom]

I think it depends on the curriculum. Some are "not for redistribution". I hope someone else chimes in who knows. Some items usually called consumable (Saxon Worktexts etc) are not to be copied but I think the TM could be shared. clear as mud :-) :eek:

What we're sharing is more of a TM or a guide, if you could call it that. I would describe it as more along the lines of the SOTW- AG - no stories, but recommended reading for a topic as well as activity sheets. The activities can be done w/o copying the sheets as they aren't coloring pages or anything like that. It's definitely not a consumable workbook or anything like that but there are activity pages inside that the original purchaser is allowed to copy and use.

Does this mean that she can't lend it to me b/c I'm not the original purchaser? Would it make it better if I pay her some money to use it? I find this all very confusing.

Any thoughts??

[Kate CA]

it is not legal to copy CD's and so I do not do it. I will put it on my Mp3 player for a short time, but then I delete in when I turn the music back in. It is not illegal to sell and buy used books.

Yes, exactly. This is the whole point with regards to curriculum - it is not illegal to resell your books and it is not illegal to resell your CDs either. However, you cannot keep a copy if you do sell them. Though there are curriculum providers that ask you not to resell their items either. I am not sure on the legalities of that, but reselling a book or curriculum is very different than copying a CD from the library.

HTH!
Kate

[Lorna]

If one borrows something from the library and copies for temporary use they can get it back to the library within days rather than using it for three weeks and then renewing and renewing it thereby preventing someone else getting the benefit of it. Something like a language course can be very time-consuming and we rarely complete one in three weeks.
We bought our Michel Thomas courses second-hand for very little and we loved them so much. It was legal, of course, but I do feel bad that the Michel Thomas estate didn't benefit from this transaction.
I think it is more than a matter of following the letter of the law, one must follow their conscience and consider consequences to others.

[Colleen]

pretty much everyone I know who has the capability and knowledge to do so copies CDs from friends, their own, library versions etc. Does everybody do this, or am I am a member of a particularly unethical crowd?

I have no idea if most people I know copy CDs, but I do not. It's illegal ~ but then again, I can't claim I follow every law to the letter (I regularly drive over the speed limit, for example). Beyond the legality issue, though, I do consider it unethical.

[Colleen]

What about two friends sharing a curriculum?...Is this wrong too? Where is the line drawn for publishers to get what is due to them and homeschooling friends to help each other save a bit of money??

The lines are sometimes murky, but they're established upon the concept of copyright limitations. Melissa is asking here about reproducing works without express permission, which is illegal save for "fair use" interpretation. Sharing things you own is not comparable to reproducing those items. Clear as mud?;)

[Call Me Cordelia]

I don't find anything wrong with this at all. The copy you are using is paid for. I can loan my cd's to friends for their use; they just can't make copies. I can check cd's out from the library to use for a time, I just can't make copies.

If you like it well enough that you want to buy your own copy, go ahead. If there is no way you can or you just don't want to, don't worry about it!

Copying materials is different than loaning materials. Or even sharing them :).

[Karin]

It's illegal, and I would never do it. In part because I don't like iffy questions and in part because my most serious ex boyfriend and some of my cousins are composers. How can they make a living if people make copies and don't buy? Most composers are NOT wealthy, but just getting by. Same with people producing audio CDs. One of my brothers gave me a bootlegged copy of a CD and I destroyed it (without telling him.)

[Lorna]

It's illegal, and I would never do it. In part because I don't like iffy questions and in part because my most serious ex boyfriend and some of my cousins are composers. How can they make a living if people make copies and don't buy? Most composers are NOT wealthy, but just getting by. Same with people producing audio CDs. One of my brothers gave me a bootlegged copy of a CD and I destroyed it (without telling him.)


The composers you know are getting by :) ? My sister's husband is a composer and he would love to know their secret!
Seriously though, he is one of the foremost young composers in Germany and it really is a struggle. I saw an incredible violinist playing Bach on the streets yesterday. Talent goes unappreciated and unpaid-for these days. A great loss to our culture.

[Eliana]

As others have said, it is clearly and unequivocally illegal, but it is a very private illegal act and I can see that it might not feel like stealing (illegal downloads are also very tempting to many people), but legally that is what it is.

No, that doesn't mean you're hanging out with a horribly immoral crowd! It just means that this issue is widely misunderstood. (Another misunderstanding is of back-up copies. You can legally rip your Cd collection to your computer, for example, and/or make a back-up copy of a CD, but you may only use as many as you have legally purchased.)

However, despite all that I just said, I have illegally copied two albums in my life. Both are completely out-of-print (or whatever the corresponding term is for albums) and neither is available used, at any price. The one I am almost certain will eventually be put out by Folkways, and when it is I will purchase it, the other might never come out. I think what I did was illegal, but not immoral - but others might well disagree with me.

On a vaguely related note: I love being able to purchase single songs rather than whole albums!! We recently had some Tom Chapin Cds out from the library, and loved 2 songs (each on a different album).... there was *no way* I was buying 2 CDs to get 2 songs! But both songs were available (for .99/ea) from Itunes...

Melissa, I know we've all spoken pretty strongly, and I hope you don't feel jumped on! Kudos to you for coming and being so open about your question and what you've been doing - you deserve a lot of credit and respect for that.

Eliana

[Kris]

There is no grey area in this respect, and it cannot be rationalized. It's illegal and unethical. I don't do it and I make sure my son doesn't do it, either.

[Tammy]

I see it no different than borrowing a book from someone and reading it.....so what?

Tammy

[Karin]

The composers you know are getting by :) ? My sister's husband is a composer and he would love to know their secret!
Seriously though, he is one of the foremost young composers in Germany and it really is a struggle. I saw an incredible violinist playing Bach on the streets yesterday. Talent goes unappreciated and unpaid-for these days. A great loss to our culture.

Sure, they're getting by. Because they also play gigs and teach lessons! Sorry, I should have mentioned that. One of my cousins does make a living on grants and commissions, but that's rare. And he doesn't have any kids. So, all the more reason not to make illegal copies and to pay for your music unless you're borrowing it from the library.

Also, most authors don't make a living on royalties, either.

[Karin]

I see it no different than borrowing a book from someone and reading it.....so what?

Tammy


Actually, it would be like borrowing a book from someone and photocopying it, not reading it. Borrowing a book and reading it is akin to borrowing a CD and listening to it.

But since most writers and composers have to work elsewhere to actually make a living, it would be helpful if we bought new books sometimes and also bought our music. This is one of the reasons I won't buy all my materials used, to support the writers. And why I buy SOTW activity books new, etc--this site is paid for by the people who put it out. I have bought used textbooks, and put that under recycling/reusing, but I can't bring myself to buy it all used.