Saxon 65 or MUS Delta...

[VaKim]

I have been using MUS with my youngest, and we are coming to the end of Gamma. I REALLY like MUS, and was planning on doing Delta, then moving her into the LOF books I already have. Well, for reasons beyond our control, we are having to really tighten up on money, and MUS costs 55.00 per level, before shipping.

I already have Saxon 65, and was wondering if it would be just as good to move dd into that after we finish Gamma. Any opinions on Saxon 65? I used it with older dd, who is not a math person, and didn't really like the results, but it could have just been her, and not the book. Anybody had success with it?

[JudoMom]

All we've used is Saxon and we've had good results so far. My oldest is in 6/5 and he tested really well in math on the ITBS over the summer. I do supplement a bit with Singapore's Challenging Word Problems.

[Lori D.]

... and whether or not you feel your student can make the jump to the more advanced concepts that are in Saxon 65 (typically used in 5th grade) compared to MUS Delta (typically used in 4th grade). I strongly suggest going to each website and comparing either the scope and sequence or the table of contents of Saxon 65 and MUS Delta. Personally, I think you'd be asking your child to skip over a *lot* of concepts that the child would have covered in Saxon 54 or MUS Delta/Epsilon in order to go on to Saxon 65 -- is the student ready to "skip a grade" of math?


Saxon 65 (typically used in 5th grade) covers: multiplication, division, word problems, fractions, decimals, percents, basic geometry, negative numbers.

(Compare to Saxon 54 -- typically used in 4th grade -- which covers review of 4 basic math functions, estimating, 2- and 3-digit computation, decimals, fractions, rudimentary geometry, word problems.)


MUS Delta (typically used in 4th grade) covers: Solve for Unknown; Division (up through remainders);Perpendicular & Parallel Lines; Area of a Parallelogram, Triangle, Trapezoid;Average; Place Value and Expanded Notation; Rounding and Estimation.

(Compare to MUS Epsilon (typically used in 5th grade) which covers: Fractions; Prime Factorization; Linear Measure; Area and Circumference; Transform a fraction to a Decimal to a Percent. OR compare to MUS Zeta (typically used in 6th grade) which covers: Exponents; Decimal Numbers; Percents; Metric System; Area and Circumference; Transform a Fraction to a Decimal and Percent; Rational Numbers; Mean, Median, Mode; Probability)



In answer to your concern about change in presentation between Saxon and MUS would depend on whether or not you feel your student's learning style will succeed with a new and different type of presentation of material or not. The big differences I see between Saxon and MUS:

Saxon
- spiral vs. mastery
- many problems on a page
- abstract presentation of concepts through reading textbook
- student must write out the problem on seperate paper
- concepts broken into small segments, spread out over a number of lessons, with sometimes many lessons in between before being re-introduced

MUS
- mastery, but with much review of past concepts
- fewer problems on a page
- visual/hands-on presentation/explanation of concepts through watching a video lesson
- problems already written out in a student workbook
- concepts build from lesson to lesson to mastery



Mostly, do you feel your student is ready to skip ahead to the more advanced topics in Saxon? And if so, Saxon would be a very different math point of view, but if your student has only ever seen things from MUS viewpoint, that might be a helpful/instructive change. : )

One last thought: is buying MUS used an option? You can often find the teacher pack for about $20ppd, which would save you $15 on a year's worth of math. Or do you know someone who is using MUS Delta who would be able to loan you the teacher book/DVD set for a year so you only have to buy the student workbook? BEST of luck! Warmly,l Lori D.

[VaKim]

Thank you, ladies.
I actually have Saxon 54 and 65, and have been looking through them again. There is really nothing my dd doesn't already know in 65 until it gets to division. Even though we are using MUS, she is a "math kid" and knows a lot more math than what is covered in MUS, just from life, games, extra math books, her sister, etc. So I am sure she would be able to do it. I am just concerned with the results.

By the way, dd has NEVER used the MUS blocks for anything but toys. She also already writes out her problems in a notebook because there is not enough room to keep them straight in the workbook.

Her sister used Saxon through 76, and ended up being able to plug numbers into formulas, provided they told her which formula, but didn't have any understanding of how to actually USE the math. She made wonderful grades, but couldn't apply what she had learned. I just wonder if it was the program, or just that particular child. Know what I mean?

If it weren't for worrying about that, I'd do Saxon in a heartbeat with younger dd, because I myself really like it, AND, it would save us a bunch of money! :) I sure do wish we could find somebody who has used the MUS Delta, but we have very few homeschoolers around here, and the ones we do have ALL use Abeka or BJU video.

[Lori D.]

I actually have Saxon 54 and 65, and have been looking through them again. There is really nothing my dd doesn't already know in 65 until it gets to division... She also already writes out her problems in a notebook...


Sounds like you could easily use Saxon 65, and would still have 54 as back-up if either the 65 moves too quickly, expects too much, or you need a slower/more detailed description of a concept -- so 54 could be your "supplement". : )




Her sister used Saxon through 76, and ended up being able to plug numbers into formulas, provided they told her which formula, but didn't have any understanding of how to actually USE the math. She made wonderful grades, but couldn't apply what she had learned. I just wonder if it was the program, or just that particular child. Know what I mean?

If it weren't for worrying about that, I'd do Saxon in a heartbeat with younger dd, because I myself really like it, AND, it would save us a bunch of money!


When we used Saxon 76 and Saxon Algebra 1/2 as supplement to Singapore NEM1, that is what I saw as a flaw in Saxon -- a reliance on formula memorization and the story problem wording to know when to use which formula, rather than real math thinking. However, I don't think that is as much of a concern at the Saxon 54 and 65 levels (which we also used as supplement).

From what you say of your student's abilities, I think you'd be fine using the Saxon -- at least give it a try it for a year. : )

And if you're concerned about the math thinking vs. memorization and really *want* the MUS -- what about looking for a used OLD "classic" MUS Intermediate (covers grade 4,5,6 topics), and the OLD "classic" MUS Advanced (covers pre-algebra, algebra, geometry topics)? You can find the teacher manual/VHS tapes for the classic programs pretty cheap used and MUS still sells the student workbooks for the classic programs on line.

BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

[VaKim]

And if you're concerned about the math thinking vs. memorization and really *want* the MUS -- what about looking for a used OLD "classic" MUS Intermediate (covers grade 4,5,6 topics), and the OLD "classic" MUS Advanced (covers pre-algebra, algebra, geometry topics)? You can find the teacher manual/VHS tapes for the classic programs pretty cheap used and MUS still sells the student workbooks for the classic programs on line.

BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.
Now that's an idea. I didn't realize that the old MUS covered several levels at a time like that. Wonder why they changed?
Thanks again for your help. :)

[Lori D.]

Now that's an idea. I didn't realize that the old MUS covered several levels at a time like that. Wonder why they changed?


MUS changed to one level per year so they could expand the explanations and lessons. The OLD classic Intermediate had 36 lessons, and each lesson had more concepts and teaching info in it than a newer level lesson does -- BUT -- those 36 lessons covered 3 grades worth of material (about 12 lessons per grade). Now they have taken those 12 lessons for 1 grade and spread them out over 30 lessons to make it more incremental in teaching, and have added teaching info, review, and more depth to the topics.

However, the old classic MUS still works great as either a supplement, or as a "fast overview" if you're jumping into MUS partway through your schooling. : ) Warmly, Lori D.

[VaKim]

Well, my dd was looking at the two Saxon books today. She says, "Mom, why do they start over and do the same thing all over again the next year?" I told her that was the way "regular" math books worked. You did the same things each year, but a little more in depth. She said, "Who would want to do the same thing year after year?" :D
Then she told me that she would give me her saved up allowance to pay for MUS if we could not afford it. Of course, there is no way I'd take her allowance to pay for it, but if the kid likes it that much, I'm sure gonna figure out a way to get it. One way or another. :)

[Cadam]

Can you barrow it from someone so you just need the student book?

[VaKim]

Can you barrow it from someone so you just need the student book?

I wish. We live millions of miles (slight exaggeration) from any other homeschoolers, and even the ones not quite so far away use all Abeka.
I will look around for it used first though. :)