Going a bit mad here, what would you do?

[Lizzie in Ma]

There is this girl my daughter's age in church and they have been friends in the past. But I have had it with this kids lying, cheating and stealing, her manipulative behavior and her meanness. I have tried to get my daughter to not sit near this child to avoid some of the bullying but it is nearly impossible as I am not in children's church nor her Sunday School class.
At my dd's birthday this child (who came with someone else because they were babysitting her so her Mom was not there to eal with it) was incredibly rude. I can't even describe it and typing it all out would raise my blood pressure. At our annual church camping trip she constantly had some little one in tears and she was not only cheating at games but it was beyond blatant and she was in your face about it. It was awful.
Today was the last straw for me. My mother got her an American Girl doll. I have never nor will ever be able to do that for her and she was so thrilled, the doll has not left her side. Today in children's church, this little br*t asked if she could hold her and my dd said she would rather hold the doll herself. The she had to help the teacher and this child took the Irish penny out of the dolls purse and then told my daughter that it was hers and would not give it back!!! And she did take the doll and hold it while my dd was busy with the teacher and kept asking her to let her play with the necklace!! It was only at the end when my dd changed tactics and said, I dropped my doll's Irish penny, have you seen it? That the child relented and gave it to her.
I am so mad but I KNOW that her mother will react defensively and it will NOT go well. ARGHHHHH :banghead:
Thanks for letting me vent.

[Heather in the Kootenays]

How old is she? How does she feel about it?

I think I'd try to affirm any concerns she has about the girls and give her some tools to deal with her. Then I'd be hypervigilant and set really clear boundaries for the child's behavior until she figured out that at your house, this isn't OK.

[Karen sn]

Well......I am more of a wolf or bear when it comes to my dd and I have been known to act like a female dog. I would go up to that little brat and through clenched teeth let her know that she better not ever touch my dd or her things or she will have to deal with me! And she better start leaving all the kids alone.

I would also discuss it with the teachers in church, the preacher, the brat's mother.....EVERYONE!

I just don't put up with bullying AT ALL!!!! EVER!!!!

I have told boys that I will kick their butts if they ever touch my dd ever again. And they never touch her again! And all the girls in her class have thanked me because the boys don't mess with them anymore either! (This was years ago when she was at the Montessori school in a mixed age class and some of the boys were physically hurting the girls).

I nip it in the bud!

[ma23peas]

This bully needs some adjusting...is she acting this way 1. because it's how she's treated or sees people being treated at home....2. is she crying out for attention for a specific reason 3. how much 'praise' does this child get?

Have you taught your daughter to pray for this girl? Have you seriously looked into your own heart and instead of it being a frustration have you considered that God has brought her into your life because she 'needs' you? It may be either through prayer alone or sincerely taking the time to praise this girl.

Here's my take on the doll situation. Here is a very fine doll that maybe even the 'bully' would never get a chance to have...so when you're daughter said "no"...that brought up many boiling feelings in this girl...we may not or never know what they are...but perhaps, if you teach your daughter to put her 'friend' first before the doll...something might change..I would not have allowed my daughter to bring the doll into church, I'd let her bring it to the car but if she wanted to bring it in, I (have done this in the past) tell her that it needs to stay in the car because we're here to focus on our lessons and sharing...the doll might take away from that.

The doll then becomes a distraction to the leaders...now if they're under 2 and have a precious thing they need with them to feel secure in church, I'd say take it in...but in this instance the desire to hold/play with the doll overcame their desire to give their full attention to the teacher.

I have found (believe me I've been in MANY situations where I've played this out...was a nanny for 2 years, taught sunday school for 5 years, led Awana for 5 years, now lead a scouting troop for girls) that if you take the time to be genuinely interested in this girl and give her a smile, give her a pat on the shoulder...NOTICE the GOOD things she does (believe me, sometimes it's very hard to notice good in some kids who act out as a rule not the exception) and encourage her 10x more than you try to give that look of correction or harbor those frustrations..what ultimately is the point is that you want HER to grow in a more loving way and manner, not that you want your daughter to be treated that way...we all want our children to be treated fairly..but we can't police that all the time and we have NO idea what this little girl has gone through...whether it's lack of discipline or bad examples or just wanting attention...we MUST LOVE one another and I have a particularly softer heart towards children because of my experiences with them....adults, I tend to not give as much leeway :tongue_smilie: They just should know better by that age!

Hope that helps!

Tara

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

What I would do is just use this as an example that there are all kinds of people in this world we have to deal with. We know that we need to be careful with our possessions around this girl, but I bet there are some positive things we can say about her too. I would focus on those positives, but would use common sense when dealing with her negative behaviors.

My daughter has a friend that likes to talk in dance class. The two of them were getting called down constantly for talking. I took my dd's TV privileges away for a day. The next week, they got called down again and my dd lost TV for a week. Nothing happened to the other girl. My dd didn't think it was fair because the other girl always starts it (which is true) but dd was the one being punished. I told her I didn't care what the other girl did. I am not her mother. Just because one of our friends acts inappropriately does not give us liscense to do the same. I have not and will not say anything to the friend's mom about this. She and I are friends too, but that's her kid.

So now my daughter has had to learn to deal with this on her own. When her friend tries to talk to her in class, she has to find ways to not disrecspect the class herself but not offend the girl and ruin the friendship. She's had to learn to enlist the teacher's help without being a tattle-tale. I will absolutely not get involved except to hold dd to the standards of behavior her father and I have set for her.

I don't allow toys in my Sunday School class- period, and neither does the 1st-3rd grade teacher. You can bring it but I better not see it. If I see a toy *I* will hold it until I either give it to your parent after class, or I will hold it until after church if your parent is not present. I teach 4th and 5th graders and the biggest issue I have is handheld video games. Some of the kids come for breakfast before church and play them then, but they know to put them away before class.

[Lizzie in Ma]

Nothing works. We have tried to have her sit away from this kid but she breaks the rules and moves to our dd.
We have talked about how this child uses crying to get her way and that when she does it it is to get what she wants. We have told her to notice there are no tears. But when she cries it makes my dd sad and that kid gets her way no matter how much it upsets my dd.
This child is 7 and extremely accomplished at the art of getting what she wants.
Last week at guitar she cruelly leaned forward and told my dd that she was stupid and that she (the kid) had already taken lessons and was SO much better than she will ever be blah blah. I had asked her to sit away from her, I had told my dh, who teaches the class to make sure she was nowhere near her. She had tried but the kid dragged her chair to right behind dd. When she finally told me what had happened I begged dh to please make sure she is on the other side of the room!!! He said, oh that explains why she stopped playing and sat with her head down the whole time. I could have killed him at that point but now he understands what is going on and is on board.

I think I have decided because the parents can't be spoken to, that for the time being, I will be "helping" at children's church and her SS class and I will do whatever it takes to disallow any proximity to my child. I can't ask the teachers to intervene because if they do, she will "tell on them" and they will be attacked by this kids parents and I like them too much to allow that to happen either. They feel she has been "unfairly targeted" already. We are far from the only family whose dd is having to deal with this kid.

Nothing would make me happier than to tell this kid what I will do to her if she ever bullies my kid again but the fall out with her mom, who I dearly love, would be horrible and affect more than just me.

Also, you should know that my dd is torn and wants to be this kids friend and prays for her every night and is distressed by the whole thing to a point where it is becoming unhealthy, it has been going on for some time now. :ack2::banghead:

[kalanamak]

[quote=Lizzie in Ma;546562

I think I have decided because the parents can't be spoken to, that for the time being, I will be "helping" at children's church and her SS class and I will do whatever it takes to disallow any proximity to my child. I can't ask the teachers to intervene because if they do, she will "tell on them" and they will be attacked by this kids parents and I like them too much to allow that to happen either. They feel she has been "unfairly targeted" already. We are far from the only family whose dd is having to deal with this kid.

Nothing would make me happier than to tell this kid what I will do to her if she ever bullies my kid again but the fall out with her mom, who I dearly love, would be horrible and affect more than just me.

Also, you should know that my dd is torn and wants to be this kids friend and prays for her every night and is distressed by the whole thing to a point where it is becoming unhealthy, it has been going on for some time now. :ack2::banghead:[/quote]

If your child was 12, I'd coach her on how to shuck this parasite, but if the girl is 7, your dd is young, too, and I would protect her. I would caution that even though you "love her mother dearly" this may not last. Mother will probably feel "unfairly targeted" again and could turn on you.

I agree with giving the other child a shot of encouragement, but I'd protect my daughter first. I'd be there, too. I would talk to other teachers, adults, but try very hard to leave your upset at home and instead of coming at them with an agenda, ask them for their help. People feel less dragged into things if you ask rather than tell, IME.

Having a plan will make you feel more in control, too.
Best of luck!

[Lizzie in Ma]

[QUOTE=ma23peas;546553]This bully needs some adjusting...is she acting this way 1. because it's how she's treated or sees people being treated at home....2. is she crying out for attention for a specific reason 3. how much 'praise' does this child get?

Actually, part of the problem is that she is the family "darling". Lack of praise is not her issue, I promise you.

Have you taught your daughter to pray for this girl? Have you seriously looked into your own heart and instead of it being a frustration have you considered that God has brought her into your life because she 'needs' you? It may be either through prayer alone or sincerely taking the time to praise this girl.

I pray for this child of God and her family and my sinful self, yes, I truly do and I work so very hard to hold my tongue in front of my dc so they do not realize how angry and upset I am. I do make it a point to "catch" all the kids being good and praise them, I really have all the years I have been teaching Awana and SS. My dd is heartsick this has gone on so long and her tears to continue being this girls friend even when she is treated badly are killing me.

Here's my take on the doll situation. Here is a very fine doll that maybe even the 'bully' would never get a chance to have...so when you're daughter said "no"...that brought up many boiling feelings in this girl...we may not or never know what they are...but perhaps, if you teach your daughter to put her 'friend' first before the doll...something might change..I would not have allowed my daughter to bring the doll into church, I'd let her bring it to the car but if she wanted to bring it in, I (have done this in the past) tell her that it needs to stay in the car because we're here to focus on our lessons and sharing...the doll might take away from that.

In point of fact, and forgive me if I sound defensive, I am a little on edge, the children in our church have always been allowed to have a quiet toy with them. Many girls bring their AG dollies. The bully has several and has no reason to covet my dd's.
I have known and loved this family for years and it is only in the last year this has begun to be an issue, but it is an issue and it is hard.
Also, I have never forced my children to share one or two special toys, though they often have. I do NOT think that is fair and here we may respectfully differ.


The doll then becomes a distraction to the leaders...now if they're under 2 and have a precious thing they need with them to feel secure in church, I'd say take it in...but in this instance the desire to hold/play with the doll overcame their desire to give their full attention to the teacher.

Again, it is not the policy in our church to disallow a toy and I have never been bothered or distracted when I have been teaching by someone or everyone having one. Twice in 6 years I have, with a smile and not stopping my lesson, removed a toy for being a distraction.


I have found (believe me I've been in MANY situations where I've played this out...was a nanny for 2 years, taught sunday school for 5 years, led Awana for 5 years, now lead a scouting troop for girls) that if you take the time to be genuinely interested in this girl and give her a smile, give her a pat on the shoulder...NOTICE the GOOD things she does (believe me, sometimes it's very hard to notice good in some kids who act out as a rule not the exception) and encourage her 10x more than you try to give that look of correction or harbor those frustrations..what ultimately is the point is that you want HER to grow in a more loving way and manner, not that you want your daughter to be treated that way...we all want our children to be treated fairly..but we can't police that all the time and we have NO idea what this little girl has gone through...whether it's lack of discipline or bad examples or just wanting attention...we MUST LOVE one another and I have a particularly softer heart towards children because of my experiences with them....adults, I tend to not give as much leeway :tongue_smilie: They just should know better by that age!

Again, I do exactly that, which is why I came home here, to vent, here, where I can safely share, due to my inability to behave otherwise to this child or any other. I do love her but right now I do not like her.




I do appreciate your taking the time to write, I am grateful, really.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Nothing works. We have tried to have her sit away from this kid but she breaks the rules and moves to our dd.

So now it is up to you and your dd how to handle this when it happens. We can not control other people's behavior, only our reactions to it.

We have talked about how this child uses crying to get her way and that when she does it it is to get what she wants. We have told her to notice there are no tears. But when she cries it makes my dd sad and that kid gets her way no matter how much it upsets my dd.So your daughter is making the choice to give in to the other child's behavior, and therefore your daughter needs to accept the consequences of doing so. If your dd is aware the girl cries just to get her way and is not respectful of other people's things, the girl cries to get to hold your dd's doll, your dd let's her hold the doll, and the doll gets broken, it is your dd's fault not this other girl's fault that this occurred. At least, that is how it would be dealt with in my house.

Fool me once shame on you- fool me twice shame on me.

This child is 7 and extremely accomplished at the art of getting what she wants.Teenage boys are extremely accomplished at getting girls to do things, and a lot of kids are extremely skilled in exerting peer pressure to get other kids to smoke, drink, or use drugs.

Last week at guitar she cruelly leaned forward and told my dd that she was stupid and that she (the kid) had already taken lessons and was SO much better than she will ever be blah blah. I had asked her to sit away from her, I had told my dh, who teaches the class to make sure she was nowhere near her. She had tried but the kid dragged her chair to right behind dd. When she finally told me what had happened I begged dh to please make sure she is on the other side of the room!!! He said, oh that explains why she stopped playing and sat with her head down the whole time. I could have killed him at that point but now he understands what is going on and is on board.What kind of class is this where children are allowed to drag chairs wherever they please? That would not be allowed in my classroom. If I told a child to stop, and the child continued, that chair and that child would sit facing the corner for the remainder of class.

I think I have decided because the parents can't be spoken to, that for the time being, I will be "helping" at children's church and her SS class and I will do whatever it takes to disallow any proximity to my child. I think that is a mistake. You can not follow your child everywhere she goes for the rest of her life to protect her from all bad situations. If you do help in the classroom I would focus on doing exactly that and on your OWN child's behavior. Let the teacher's worry about enforcing rules and discipline with the rest of the class unless you are asked to do so. I would be EXTREMELY offended if a parent came into my class and started telling kids where to sit and not sit and who to talk to and not talk to. I would also be extremely offended if I trusted my child's care to a trained teacher and found out another parent was trying to discipline my child.

If the teachers do not have proper training and experience, that is another issue altogether and should be taken up with the pastor IMO.

I can't ask the teachers to intervene because if they do, she will "tell on them" and they will be attacked by this kids parents and I like them too much to allow that to happen either. They feel she has been "unfairly targeted" already. Bullsh*t!! We are far from the only family whose dd is having to deal with this kid.I had a situation in my own class with a disruptive child. The kid's parents were not involved at all and were not willing to help. Another parent was constantly complaining. After the kids graduated from my class, apparently the dad put out an ultimatum of "either he goes or we go." So they went. Hopefully they have now found a place full of perfect children with perfect parents. All we can do there is enforce the rules of the classroom. If we are not doing our jobs, it is the pastor's job to intervene. But we are not going to throw a child out of church, nor can we force uninvolved parents to suddenly take as much responsibility as we would like.

Nothing would make me happier than to tell this kid what I will do to her if she ever bullies my kid again but the fall out with her mom, who I dearly love, would be horrible and affect more than just me.

Also, you should know that my dd is torn and wants to be this kids friend and prays for her every night and is distressed by the whole thing to a point where it is becoming unhealthy, it has been going on for some time now. :ack2::banghead:I would, again, try to take the focus off of so-and-so. Accept the things you can not change (other people's behavior) and focus on what you can change (your reactions).

I strongly disagree that 7 is too young to learn to stand up for yourself. If they don't learn to do it now it will just be harder for them later on.

JMO.

[Remudamom]

I think all the advice above is good advice, but if it doesn't work then you can listen to me.

I can't save the world, but I can save my children from a lot of crap in the world. I would gently, kindly, lovingly tell this little girl that your little girl is now off her bully list. And you were going to make sure she stays off of it.
If it's mainly church stuff then you need to excuse yourself from the service once or twice and make an appearance in children's church.

[swellmomma]

We have a child like this in my neighborhood. I have talked to her mom about it but it changes nothing, her mom is the same way. My kids now tell this child that if she behaves in x way they will not play with her. I send her straight home if she comes to my door and have told her that her behaviour was unacceptable and why. To give an idea of her cruelty, My son Hunter was riding his scooter ont he sidewalk, she walks up to him and pulls it right out from under him causing him to go face first into the cement busting open his eyebrow, her mom was outside and said and did nothing. A couple weeks later she did it again, this time throwing his scooter into the road as a car came by resulting in the scooter breaking. WHen I told the mother I expected a replacement, her response was my son should have kept his scooter ont he lawn rather than riding on the sidewalk, so it's HIS fault not her daughter's. Other "minor" incidents include, my dd showing her the new webkin she got that day for her b-day, the little girl dumped a bottle on sunscreen on it jsut because. DS showed a new toy he got for his b-day, girl threw it in her pool ruining it, she has also stolen the kids toys on more than one occasion and her mother will tell my kids she bought it for her. It isn';t until I started putting my kids names on things as proof that her mom started returning them, but only if I go to the door to claim them, never directly to my children. She will walk up to my door, stick her head in and say things like "your fat, you baby is ugly, your house is gross etc" just because. My kids don't usually play with her, but sometimes she is in the larger group of kids they play with and it is really causing strained relationship between her brother and my son because I have had it with her and her mother, so the boys are starting to take it out on each other (sticking up for their mothers when the other says something etc).

Anyway, I don't mean to threadjack. The advice given was great. In addition we have implemented a rule that they don't take toys out where this girl is because she will steal or damage them. They also have been told to flat outt tell this girl why they won't play with her. Sometimes peer pressure is good, if this girl learns she will continue losing friends because of her behaviour maybe she will stop even if her mother is not teaching her it is wrong.

[gardening momma]

I would attend dd's classes for at least a week. I wouldn't sit with dd, but somewhere else in the room. I would just observe, and if the "friend" bothers dd, I'd speak kindly but firmly to her (the same way I would to any child who I was in charge of, like in a situation where I was teaching/leading a class).

When we started attending a different church this summer, I attended dd4's classes the first week. I realized I've never done that before. I really appreciated finding out exactly what they do in her class. So even if it weren't for the bullying, I'd recommend attending your child's class for that reason. Churches might even find recruiting volunteers easier if they encourage parent visits!

I will correct a child even if I'm not the one "in charge".

[Pongo]

I would sit with dd, but somewhere else in the room. I would just observe, and if the "friend" bothers dd, I'd speak kindly but firmly to her.
I will correct a child even if I'm not the one "in charge".

ITA! This is what I had to do for my dd last year, and the "bully" realized that my dd had someone that would not allow this behavior. Unfortunately, she picks on other kids.
One time in class my dd tried so hard to sit away from her and three times my dd moved and three times the "bully" pulled up a chair right behind her. I couldn't believe how relieved my child was to look back see me and then quietly sit in my lap. The other child tried dragging a chair over to us and I stood up and quietly left the room with my dd in tow and we went to service. She was happy to do so.

This child even hit my dd once and the teacher said " seeing you home school, your child is not as accustomed to this type of behavior, that's why your child is so upset". I responded, "even wild animals protect their young, I see no need in allowing my child to accept ANY kind of abuse".

Anyways, If your uncomfortable sitting in the classroom, you could sit outside the classroom and tell your dd if boundaries are crossed to politely excuse herself from class and you will be right outside the door.
HTH

[Kanga]

I think I have decided because the parents can't be spoken to, that for the time being, I will be "helping" at children's church and her SS class and I will do whatever it takes to disallow any proximity to my child.

This is what I would do! I would not allow this girl in my house and I would do everything in my power to keep her a way from my dd at hs events!

[NorthwestMom]

We have a similar problem with a dear friend's daughter. She is a real bully, but her mother is determined to believe that it is "normal girl development" that she will grow out of. We had to limit contact with just that one child (her younger sister is my 3yo's dear friend,so that was tough to juggle), but a year later she seems to have calmed down a lot.

While I think it it extremely important to teach a child to stand up for herself, 7 is a bit young to tell her how to handle a bully and then back off. I'd be in the classroom to observe and help. And if the teacher was offended, too bad. I am a teacher by profession,and just because someone is a teacher does not mean they have great classroom management skills. I have seen plenty of teachers get overwhelmed by just a few rowdy kids.

[G&KMCKee]

I have run into a few people that think there children are perfect. No matter what anyone tell them , even if they see the child acting like a brat too!!!!!'
You just have to pray for them and tell your children to do the same.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

While I think it it extremely important to teach a child to stand up for herself, 7 is a bit young to tell her how to handle a bully and then back off.

I realize that my child is quite advanced, but in looking at her and at some of her classmates close in age, these kids are more like pre-teens than babies. It could just be that I live in a pretty socio-economically stable area and kids here are very social creatures starting at young ages. Pretty much everyone has their kids involved in some activity by the time they are 2 or 3, and we pretty much only hang out with kids who attend public or private school. I am having a hard time understanding why a 7 year old can not learn the communication skills necessary to stand up for herself, especially since situations like this are usually part of life for kids at this age. At what age do you not consider them babies and start treating them like people?

I'd be in the classroom to observe and help. And if the teacher was offended, too bad. I am a teacher by profession,and just because someone is a teacher does not mean they have great classroom management skills. I have seen plenty of teachers get overwhelmed by just a few rowdy kids.

I am all for parents sitting in the classroom. It's the best way to hold teachers accountable. My parents used to drop in school unannounced and sit in the back of the class, and we did the same thing when dd was in preschool. However, this mother is talking about going into a class for the purpose of correcting someone else's child without even having a meeting with the teacher about it first. Now, if she observes that the teacher does in fact have poor classroom management skills, then that should be taken up with the pastor. But teaching children that mommy is going to circumvent the teacher everytime we have a problem with another kid is not good. Teaching "too bad if the teacher is offended" is just wrong IMHO- especially since we are talking about homeschoolers who do not often get the benefit of having a huge variety of teachers other than mom. This is exactly the kind of thing that causes people to say that homeschoolers lack social skills IMHO.

[lynn]

We have a child like this in my neighborhood. I have talked to her mom about it but it changes nothing, her mom is the same way. My kids now tell this child that if she behaves in x way they will not play with her. I send her straight home if she comes to my door and have told her that her behaviour was unacceptable and why. To give an idea of her cruelty, My son Hunter was riding his scooter ont he sidewalk, she walks up to him and pulls it right out from under him causing him to go face first into the cement busting open his eyebrow, her mom was outside and said and did nothing. A couple weeks later she did it again, this time throwing his scooter into the road as a car came by resulting in the scooter breaking. WHen I told the mother I expected a replacement, her response was my son should have kept his scooter ont he lawn rather than riding on the sidewalk, so it's HIS fault not her daughter's. Other "minor" incidents include, my dd showing her the new webkin she got that day for her b-day, the little girl dumped a bottle on sunscreen on it jsut because. DS showed a new toy he got for his b-day, girl threw it in her pool ruining it, she has also stolen the kids toys on more than one occasion and her mother will tell my kids she bought it for her. It isn';t until I started putting my kids names on things as proof that her mom started returning them, but only if I go to the door to claim them, never directly to my children. She will walk up to my door, stick her head in and say things like "your fat, you baby is ugly, your house is gross etc" just because. My kids don't usually play with her, but sometimes she is in the larger group of kids they play with and it is really causing strained relationship between her brother and my son because I have had it with her and her mother, so the boys are starting to take it out on each other (sticking up for their mothers when the other says something etc).

Anyway, I don't mean to threadjack. The advice given was great. In addition we have implemented a rule that they don't take toys out where this girl is because she will steal or damage them. They also have been told to flat outt tell this girl why they won't play with her. Sometimes peer pressure is good, if this girl learns she will continue losing friends because of her behaviour maybe she will stop even if her mother is not teaching her it is wrong.

Honestly, when the second incident occured and the mother acted this way I would have called the police. Maybe a little overboard but this girl and mother need to be accountable or she will end up in juvenile court before to long if she continues down this path. I am so sorry your son got hurt and lost his scooter.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Honestly, when the second incident occured and the mother acted this way I would have called the police. Maybe a little overboard but this girl and mother need to be accountable or she will end up in juvenile court before to long if she continues down this path. I am so sorry your son got hurt and lost his scooter.

I was thinking the same thing. Small claims court is a good learning experience for a kid too.

[Lizzie in Ma]

I am all for parents sitting in the classroom. It's the best way to hold teachers accountable. My parents used to drop in school unannounced and sit in the back of the class, and we did the same thing when dd was in preschool. However, this mother is talking about going into a class for the purpose of correcting someone else's child without even having a meeting with the teacher about it first. Now, if she observes that the teacher does in fact have poor classroom management skills, then that should be taken up with the pastor. But teaching children that mommy is going to circumvent the teacher everytime we have a problem with another kid is not good. Teaching "too bad if the teacher is offended" is just wrong IMHO- especially since we are talking about homeschoolers who do not often get the benefit of having a huge variety of teachers other than mom. This is exactly the kind of thing that causes people to say that homeschoolers lack social skills IMHO.

You are making more than several assumptions here that are in error. What on earth makes you think I have not already spoken with the teacher? What on earth makes you think that I would not talk with her first? Having made the decision to be there does not mean that I would barge in there and behave rudely!!!!

Additionally, I have no intention of correcting anyone's child, I am simply going to sit in with mine so she is not bullied. As it happens, I have often helped out in the class and it will not even be unusual for me to be in there.
Also, my daughter is NOT lacking in social skills!!!!!
She is capable and kind and generous to a fault and has never needed my intervention before. But I DO NOT believe that it is a "social skill" to have to learn to deal with a bully at age 7, that is a very public school mentality and I do NOT agree with it. I utterly disagree that dealing with bullies is a skill she will need later on in the workplace, where it will NOT be tolerated or elsewhere.

I am not "circumventing" the teacher and I never said "if it offends her too bad", that was another poster!!!!

This post has gone beyond the scope of helping me cope with a very upsetting situation. I have never been attacked before when I ask for help on these boards in all the years I have been on them. One of the benefits and blessings of this board has always been that many of our opinions vary on many things, but this is not the place or time for a discussion on how YOU feel about what I believe.

[ma23peas]

[quote=ma23peas;546553]

Actually, part of the problem is that she is the family "darling". Lack of praise is not her issue, I promise you.

Lack of appropriate and God-designed praise is a part of her problem...there are all sorts of praises..she is getting praise in foolish ways, you can offer her praise in loving ways...we can love and discipline and gently guide them with our convictions, not our fears and frustrations.

I pray for this child of God and her family and my sinful self, yes, I truly do and I work so very hard to hold my tongue in front of my dc so they do not realize how angry and upset I am. I do make it a point to "catch" all the kids being good and praise them, I really have all the years I have been teaching Awana and SS. My dd is heartsick this has gone on so long and her tears to continue being this girls friend even when she is treated badly are killing me.

Keep in your heart, 10 words of kindness for every scold or judgment. Part of the problem your daughter is heartsick is because of your reaction to it..I believe your reaction does not reflect a loving Christian response..I do believe it is your responsibility to protect your daughter but part of protecting her is showing her how to live with Christian responses...Jesus said turn your cheek 70x7...there is a reason for this..because our love for that person striking us is much greater than the harm inflicted upon us (if it ever gets physical/dangerous then there are recourses for that and should be acted upon immediately..but you're doing that out of love because if they are getting violent they need correction..)

In point of fact, and forgive me if I sound defensive, I am a little on edge, the children in our church have always been allowed to have a quiet toy with them. Many girls bring their AG dollies. The bully has several and has no reason to covet my dd's.
I have known and loved this family for years and it is only in the last year this has begun to be an issue, but it is an issue and it is hard.
Also, I have never forced my children to share one or two special toys, though they often have. I do NOT think that is fair and here we may respectfully differ.


Just because 'everyone else does it' doesn't mean that you should...do you not see how the doll instigated the issues in this girl? Are we to teach our children that church is a holy place where our hearts and minds are to be WHOLLY on Him and our fellowship with others? I strongly believe that the doll takes away from that and it's your responsibility to explain this to your child...having her relationship with God grow even that much more respectful is more important than having a doll...she is learning to rely on God for her comfort not material things...after the age of 3 or 4..children learn these things.

Again, it is not the policy in our church to disallow a toy and I have never been bothered or distracted when I have been teaching by someone or everyone having one. Twice in 6 years I have, with a smile and not stopping my lesson, removed a toy for being a distraction.

I don't like this thinking that since a church does not disallow it, then it means a church condones it? It also doesn't disallow drunken parishioners or theft from the offering plate...


Again, I do exactly that, which is why I came home here, to vent, here, where I can safely share, due to my inability to behave otherwise to this child or any other. I do love her but right now I do not like her.

Your comment was that you were going to volunteer and make sure that you keep their contact as minimal as possible...how about working on making their contact work....you are in church, these parents are bringing their child to church to learn Christian values...if it were a neighborhood child then perhaps you may have to resort to limiting their contact because you're not sure those parents are going to back up what your goal is, to have two girls receive each other in love and find ways to have it work...

My son is in boy scouts...I wrote of severe abuses inflicted on him..yes, my human side was to just take him out of that troop and remove him from the abuse...but after much prayer and guidance, we went to the leaders and parents of the boys..we told them of what all had been going on..it was very tough for my son and we're still testing the waters to see if all is corrected...but these boys make a commitment to be kind, trustworty, etc. Have you had a heart to heart with this child's mother? Don't go in it from a point of I need to protect my daughter from yours, but how you can be a better leader for their daughter...she does not respond to correction or accept responsibility...and that your daughter desperately wants to be her friend...but feels discouraged by her attempts..be calm and loving, there are MANY reasons why these times are brought into our lives, I just don't think the answer is to avoid it like the plague and make sure there are no waves in your daughter's life...she needs to learn how you deal with these waves....out of love should be the first response each and every time.


I do appreciate your taking the time to write, I am grateful, really.

Tara...you can do this!

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

You are making more than several assumptions here that are in error. What on earth makes you think I have not already spoken with the teacher? What on earth makes you think that I would not talk with her first? Having made the decision to be there does not mean that I would barge in there and behave rudely!!!!

Additionally, I have no intention of correcting anyone's child, I am simply going to sit in with mine so she is not bullied. As it happens, I have often helped out in the class and it will not even be unusual for me to be in there.
Also, my daughter is NOT lacking in social skills!!!!!
She is capable and kind and generous to a fault and has never needed my intervention before. But I DO NOT believe that it is a "social skill" to have to learn to deal with a bully at age 7, that is a very public school mentality and I do NOT agree with it. I utterly disagree that dealing with bullies is a skill she will need later on in the workplace, where it will NOT be tolerated or elsewhere.

I am not "circumventing" the teacher and I never said "if it offends her too bad", that was another poster!!!!

This post has gone beyond the scope of helping me cope with a very upsetting situation. I have never been attacked before when I ask for help on these boards in all the years I have been on them. One of the benefits and blessings of this board has always been that many of our opinions vary on many things, but this is not the place or time for a discussion on how YOU feel about what I believe.

I am sorry if you felt attacked. That was not my intention. I truly wanted to help you and help your child. I do not pussy foot around an issue. I call it like I see it. In this case, I did leave off a word that I thought may be taken the wrong way. That word was "co-dependent".

Keep in mind that in this conversation I was also having discussions with other posters about the situation.

I would now simply advise you to speak with your pastor or a professional counselor about these issues you are having.

Most of my friends ARE public school and private school parents and I enjoy their "mentality" much more than I do being attacked for simply trying to provide some sound, psychologically competent advice. If you disagree with it, that is your prerogative and I respect that, but I do not appreciate being spoken to like a witch on a broomstick. Not everyone in this world is out to get you.

God Bless and good day. :001_smile:

[Danestress]

I would now simply advise you to speak with your pastor or a professional counselor about these issues you are having.



Lizzie isn't the one who needs professional health counseling. She's not a bully and neither is her daughter.

She's just trying to figure out how to help a 7 year old deal with bullying, and this doesn't sound like a little girl being a little pushy or rude. It sounds like a very mean-spirited child.

I think Lizzie's daughter showed a fair amount of maturity and ingenuity in how she dealt with it, and to me, it appears she *already has* good social skills. She felt courageous enough to say "no, I don't want you to hold my baby" (I, as a 30 year old law school graduate, once lacked the nerve to tell a total stranger at the library that she could not hold my living, breathing baby, which was a real wake up call about getting a back bone.)

But I don't think that Lizzie's daughter should have to keep dealing with this problem on her own. She's done a good job of it, but no amount of teaching our children how to deal with difficult children will necessarily solve the problem. Sometimes the only way to solve the problem is to step in, and for a seven year old whose Sunday School experience is being ruined by a bully, I would do it.

Personally, I would talk to the other mother. I understand it might cause conflict, but I would do it anyway. I would very nicely put her on notice that there is too much meanness going on, and that I plan to supervise closely and want to give her the chance to join me in that. I wouldn't attack her daughter or blame it all on her daughter. I would just say that I've noticed a lot of conflict and that I will be keeping the children apart for a while and keeping an eye on things.

I wouldn't talk to the teacher. To me, that just opens the door to gossip. In a church setting, I would not talk to a teacher about the behavior of another child, especially if I had not talked to the other parent first.

So for me, I would probably tell the other parents we are having problems, tell the teacher that DD is struggling with peer relations (with out naming names, though no doubt she's aware of who is causing the problems) and I would come to class. I would have NO PROBLEM correcting someone else's child at church for being mean to any other child (or for any other misbehavior). That seems really odd to me. At my church, I feel like we all sort of join in supervising children. If I heard any child being mean to any other child, I would correct it in a heart beat and not even think about it.

Anyway, I think you are really being extreme to suggest that Lizzie needs to take her daughter for counseling. She's seven and she's dealing with a brat. What she needs is to learn how to cope (which she's doing well) and to learn that the adults in her life won't allow it to continue, within their power to stop it.

[Lizzie in Ma]

And I truly, from the bottom of my heart appreciate the input and the support. I am still upset though, so new rule for me, in the absence of facial expressions and hugs to help convey tone and meaning, I will no longer post when I am this on the defensive.
My sincere apologies.:crying:

[Prairie~Phlox]

Different options? Find another church, don't take the doll, keep your daughter with you?
Sorry, we attend a church that does not have a lot of specific aged activities, it's a smaller more intimate congregation, so I don't have to deal with these kinds of things.

Good luck.
Phlox

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I never said nor implied this child does not have social skills. It actually sounds to me like the child is compassionate and has all the basics she needs to learn to deal with situation like this.

What I said was that when homeschool parents rush into the classroom to handle situations on their own it feeds into the public perception that homeschoolers have poor social skills. That's what I meant. Sorry if there was confusion there.

The reason I said the mother should talk to a pastor or counselor is that both of these people could put things in terms that would not upset her the way I obviously did.

I just asked my own 7 year old what she would do in this situation. She said she would still be kind to the girl when she had to be, but when the girl started calling her names or disrespecting her things, she would tell her to stop. If she didn't stop my daughter said she would tell the teacher in private after class so she would not be a tattle tale. If the girl was someone she still wanted to be friends with, she would sit the girl down and tell her she wanted to be friends, but the girl was going to have to do some things to show her respect, or else they would not be friends any longer and she would hold the girl to those things. She said she would also listen and try to do things the other girl wanted if they were reasonable.

My daughter said she would be "mortified" if I tried to intervene in a situation with her and one of her friends. She said it would be like I didn't trust her or I thought she was a baby.

[Remudamom]

Anyway, I think you are really being extreme to suggest that Lizzie needs to take her daughter for counseling. She's seven and she's dealing with a brat. What she needs is to learn how to cope (which she's doing well) and to learn that the adults in her life won't allow it to continue, within their power to stop it.


I absolutely agree. Lizzie's dd is not the one that needs counseling. Bully needs counseling, and frankly I'm amazed at some of the responses. Her seven (7) yr old dd is dealing with a bully. There is no reason whatsoever for her not to step in and stop it. Immediately. And if her dd wants to take her doll with her I'd make it clear that the doll is under protection too. This child is a bully. Period.

I would talk to the other mother though. Especially if she's a friend. We ended a friendship with a bully and it was a good thing, even though I missed the mom for a while. My son ended up the winner.

[bkpan]

Is it just me, or does anyone else struggle when hearing other children referred to as "brats"?

Lizzie, this is hard for you, obviously. I know that when my dc is being treated unkindly by anyone, it is difficult to remain objective and unemotional. But, I hope that you will take into account Tara's and Jedi's advice (I tried to rep you both, but the system wouldn't let me). I think they both had a lot of wisdom in their posts.

You just want to do what is best for your dd, that is clear. Just remember that this other little girl is still a child, too. She deserves your compassion.

Since you are feeling defensive and upset by the whole situation, WAIT. I would not do anything till I was calmer. Pray for your heart to soften and for wisdom. Keep your dd with you next Sunday if necessary. But, keep praying. I believe that you will come to a peaceful place that will lead you to know what to do. Pray for healing all around. HTH

Kim

[Jennifer3141]

I'm not really comfortable with calling any kid a brat but the second someone hurts one of my kids, it does come to mind.

Last week, DD was walking into a chruch where we have Spanish lessons and another older girl ran out the same door and plowed my DD over without stopping at all. That was a brat.

A boy shoved my DS down a slide at the waterpark where we have swim lessons. DS is just now getting truly confident about water. That was another brat and dangerous and I reported his bratty butt to the lifeguard immediately.

Our kids are going to run into brats/bullies/whatever the PC word is now more and more often because there are a lot of bratty adults out there. And they are propagating. Sometimes we're going to have to step in and sometimes we won't. And that step in point is going to be different for every child and every mother.

I step in quicker with DS because he's nonverbal and he really doesn't quite get what's going on around him socially. I let DD observe a few minutes because she's beginning to realize that there are all sorts of people in the world and some of them aren't nice. It's been a little sad seeing the polish fall from the world a little in her eyes but it had to happen I suppose.

Lizzie, we do have a few AG dolls too. I have explained to DD that they cannot go some places where they may even be allowed because the doll may make other kids sad because they don't have one. So we buckle her into the seat and give the doll a book. (God help me the day someone breaks into the car and steals the darn doll. lol)

I think as long as the teacher is aware of the problem, that there's nothing relaly wrong with you sitting in the classroom if that's what your DD wants.

When I dealt with the swim bully last week, I had two friend's two 8 year old DDs with me. I asked them if they wanted some help and at first, they said that had it covered. But when he escalated, they felt comfortable coming to me and asking for help. I got the lifeguard (who really needs to be watching the water) and told him what was going on. He told the kid to stop and then I stood right there and reinforced that there would be no more pushing. I explained to the boy that he was not allowed to speak or touch the kids under my charge and I looked him straight in the eye. I'm sure I intimidated the heck out of him. If he tries to bully again, I'll be getting the head lifeguard involved. Maybe losing the priviledge of swim lessons will provide this kid and his parents with some time to reflect upon bullying?

I'm all about letting other parents parent their kids anyway they want to. Until they negatively impact my own. And then, I'm there. And I have begun to teach my kids that bullying is not acceptable in any form. They know that if I catch them doing something like that, that there's going to be a real problem with mama.

I am probably more sensitive to it because of DS. He's not where the other 3 year olds are verbally speaking and I see how frustrating that is for him. It amazes me that pack behavior starts this young. I'm hoping that seeing this will make my kids more empathetic over the long haul. We'll see, I guess.

Good luck Lizzie, in whatever you decide to do. Just hug your DD tight. :)

Jen

[kalanamak]

At what age do you not consider them babies and start treating them like people?


Aside from the fact I think babies actually are people, I view childhood as a continuum, not babies-- and then you're on your own, kid. Judging our child's abilities and giving them a bit more pressure, or responsibility, etc as they mature is healthy parenting. We do it academically as well. We don't hand a 7 year old a book above her level and say "read this, or I'll take your doll away". Neither would I do the same socially.

And yes, some of us do consider homeschooling important because 7 year olds can be protected from being pre-teens at that age. A child who hasn't been funneled into peer/herd behavior at this age has an opportunity to get a wider view of the world. He'll have decades to narrow it, and waiting until he's 10 or 12 is a benefit, IMO, not a liability. YMMV, but "At what age do you not consider them babies and start treating them like people" is a loaded question, along the lines of the most famous example of that fallacy in informal logic "When did you stop beating your wife."

Just food for thought.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Aside from the fact I think babies actually are people, I view childhood as a continuum, not babies-- and then you're on your own, kid. Judging our child's abilities and giving them a bit more pressure, or responsibility, etc as they mature is healthy parenting. We do it academically as well. We don't hand a 7 year old a book above her level and say "read this, or I'll take your doll away". Neither would I do the same socially.

And yes, some of us do consider homeschooling important because 7 year olds can be protected from being pre-teens at that age. A child who hasn't been funneled into peer/herd behavior at this age has an opportunity to get a wider view of the world. He'll have decades to narrow it, and waiting until he's 10 or 12 is a benefit, IMO, not a liability. YMMV, but "At what age do you not consider them babies and start treating them like people" is a loaded question, along the lines of the most famous example of that fallacy in informal logic "When did you stop beating your wife."

Just food for thought.

My dd7 is much more a pre-teen than a baby right now. She is very mature for her age, and has a VERY wide view of the world. Just because a child is socially mature and exposed to peer pressure doesn't mean they are going to follow the crowd. My own dd is popular but also VERY independent. It's that independence that draws other kids to her, that makes her one of the leaders instead of one of the followers.

I have to prepare and raise my dd to live in the world that exists, not in the world I wish existed. "Protecting" her from reality is only going to do her a disservice. In my experience, it is in groups of overly sheltered homeschool children where kids learn a very narrow view of the world. Not that all homeschool groups are like this, by any means.

I absolutely agree that a child who is less mature should not be put in situations where they would have to deal with bullies, etc. until they are ready to handle that.

And it's true we don't hand a child a book above level and expect them to read it. We also do not sit and read it for them. We teach them how to read the book themselves.

[jojomojo]

At 7 or 17....I would hope that my daughter would feel comfortable coming to me when she has exhausted her abilities to handle a problem and is feeling overwhelmed. I absolutely agree that helping out a 7 year old in such a situation is the best thing to do. IMO, thats just too young to have a "you're on your own kid, I'm here for moral support though" philosophy.

The only thing I can suggest that I don't think has been said yet is that it might be an option to talk to the teacher about this first and she/he can deal with it as a classroom issue. Maybe it wouldn't feel like mom against mom? The other parents wouldn't even have to know that you initiated it.

Good luck! I hope this can be resolved soon!

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

At 7 or 17....I would hope that my daughter would feel comfortable coming to me when she has exhausted her abilities to handle a problem and is feeling overwhelmed. I absolutely agree that helping out a 7 year old in such a situation is the best thing to do. IMO, thats just too young to have a "you're on your own kid, I'm here for moral support though" philosophy.

That is not the approach I take with my child. First, I make sure we have talked about how to handle these situations in the past. If not, it is time for some education to occur. After I make sure my daughter is armed with the information she needs, I then encourage her to use that information to empower herself. If she is doing that, including going to the teacher, and things still are not going well- then enter mom stage left to have a meeting with the teacher.

Here is some advice from the Mayo Clinic regarding bullies
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/bullying/MH00126

Here is another article that may be of interest
http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/family/09/17/helicopter.parents/index.html?iref=hpmostpop