Oh. My. Gosh. I can't believe he said this!

[FlockOfSillies]

http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/blog

Click on the video under "Lipstick on a Pig." Unbelievable.

[laylamcb]

Now, keep in mind that I don't plan at this time to vote for either of these guys--so I've got no dog in this race. But this is actually something similar to what my DH--a native Virginian--says all the time: "You can put a dress on a pig, but it's still just a shoat in a skirt." I doubt that this comment had anything to do with Palin at all. I wouldn't have made the connection had the blogger not referred to her.

Just my countrified $.02! :001_smile:

[Parabola]

What is so unbelievable? He's basically saying that you can call something anything you like, but it is what it is. Its not directed at any one person. Its directed at policy. I see no reason for uproar, tho when I first got to that site I was ready to be disappointed in my candidate. Thankfully, nothing has changed.

[SapphireStitch]

Now, keep in mind that I don't plan at this time to vote for either of these guys--so I've got no dog in this race. But this is actually something similar to what my DH--a native Virginian--says all the time: "You can put a dress on a pig, but it's still just a shoat in a skirt." I doubt that this comment had anything to do with Palin at all. I wouldn't have made the connection had the blogger not referred to her.

Just my countrified $.02! :001_smile:

:iagree::iagree:

Yeah...this is a pretty old country saying. I'm from Illinois originally and I know I've heard it there in the past.

I think it's a little bit of a stretch to say this is about Palin. Is it because she made the "hockey mom vs. pit bull" joke with the difference being lipstick? :confused:

[Dani n Monies Mom]

Though I am an "undecided", I didn't think he was referring to Palin either.

Ava

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/blog

Click on the video under "Lipstick on a Pig." Unbelievable.

If they want to get all huffy on her part, well, what can you do? "Lipstick on a pig" is rarely a personal comment. It's usually about things that stink, like policies or campaigns or ads that prey on people's deepest prejudices. Dressing up things that are innately rotten with lipstick or a little perfume doesn't make them any less rotten.

And I believe Gov. Palin made a comment about women not being able to handle criticism and her position on whining about real or implied criticism when she commented on Sen. Clinton's perceived "whining" a few months back. Her position was that you just make yourself stronger and better, not whine about it. If you can't run with the big pit bulls, you better stay on the porch. They do her no favors by turning this into something all personal, wrapping her up in cotton, and then whining *for* her. If she's such a delicate flower that anything the other candidate says or does will be a perceived personal attack, she doesn't need to be in this race. And she's no a delicate flower.

ETA: Watch before AND after. And the quote linked in the blog? It conveniently left off that he said, "...after eight years, it [the fish] is gonna stink." McCain used the phrase earlier in the campaign about the Clinton health care plan. No one from Sen. Clinton's team, to my knowledge, bent themselves too far out of shape about it. Nor did General Petreus freak when Sen. Obama said of him (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/13/AR2007091301679_pf.html) that he was making the best of an impossibly situation by trying to figure out how to put lipstick on a pig.

[beansprouts]

If they want to get all huffy on her part, well, what can you do? "Lipstick on a pig" is rarely a personal comment. It's usually about things that stink, like policies or campaigns or ads that prey on people's deepest prejudices. Dressing up things that are innately rotten with lipstick or a little perfume doesn't make them any less rotten.

And I believe Gov. Palin made a comment about women not being able to handle criticism and her position on whining about real or implied criticism when she commented on Sen. Clinton's perceived "whining" a few months back. Her position was that you just make yourself stronger and better, not whine about it. If you can't run with the big pit bulls, you better stay on the porch. They do her no favors by turning this into something all personal, wrapping her up in cotton, and then whining *for* her. If she's such a delicate flower that anything the other candidate says or does will be a perceived personal attack, she doesn't need to be in this race. And she's no a delicate flower.



I agree...
























...but I'm still voting for Pam :D

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I agree...


...but I'm still voting for Pam :D

If nominated, I will not run.

If elected, I will emigrate to Canada. :auto:

:lol:

[Dawn E]

I don't think it was directed as a personal attack towards Palin either. However, I agree with Pam that even if it was she is quite tough enough to handle it.

[Zelda]

If I were his campaign manager I'd be apoplectic but I don't know that this was anything more than an unfortunate gaffe that at this point neither side can afford to make.

It is always fun in a totally predictable way to see how the partisan pundits will react to this.

[Michelle T]

He was talking about the Republican party anyway, not Palin specifically. Besides, McCain once used the same expression referring to H. Clinton's healthcare plan, and she didn't boo hoo and cry about it.

Palin needs to toughen up. Wasn't she the one who said H. Clinton was "whining" about sexism? Sheesh, Palin's in the game for a week, has done zero interviews, and already the kitchen is too hot for her.

All this crying and whining about sexism over every innocuous comment only confirms for those who already believe that women aren't suited for high office. It also lends a lot of credence that Palin was picked only because of her reproductive anatomy. How convenient to be able to cry sexism over every little thing, while viciously attacking your opponents.
Michelle T

[Dawn E]

Palin needs to toughen up. Wasn't she the one who said H. Clinton was "whining" about sexism? Sheesh, Palin's in the game for a week, has done zero interviews, and already the kitchen is too hot for her.


I don't think Palin has done any whining over this.

[Crissy]

My grandmother used to say that All The Time. She wasn't calling anyone a pig, but pointing out that you can spin an issue all you want. It's still the same issue.

[Amy in NY]

Well, I'm not an Obama fan but I don't think he was referring to Gov. Palin, either. I take no offense in that statement at all (so I'm not one of the millions of women who 'won't forget or forgive') and think it is rather a stretch to link that to Sarah Palin.

[DB in NJ]

I am no fan of Barack Obama, and I am certainly not voting for him (policy differences). However, having heard a long clip of the speech, I walk away with the distinct impression that he was NOT referring to Sarah Palin at all. The point he was making was that, in his opinion, John McCain is now talking about bringing change to Washington. Obama said that other than the same tax policy, foreign policy, every-other-policy, and Karl Rove politics (paraphrased, obviously), McCain will be completely different from Bush. That's when he said you can put lipstick on a pig, and it's still a pig.

He was referring to John McCain's similarity to Bush (policy-wise) as the pig, not Sarah Palin.

I disagree with him and his analysis, but in all fairness, this is much ado about nothing.

[Jami]

I am no fan of Barack Obama, and I am certainly not voting for him (policy differences). However, having heard a long clip of the speech, I walk away with the distinct impression that he was NOT referring to Sarah Palin at all. The point he was making was that, in his opinion, John McCain is now talking about bringing change to Washington. Obama said that other than the same tax policy, foreign policy, every-other-policy, and Karl Rove politics (paraphrased, obviously), McCain will be completely different from Bush. That's when he said you can put lipstick on a pig, and it's still a pig.

He was referring to John McCain's similarity to Bush (policy-wise) as the pig, not Sarah Palin.

I disagree with him and his analysis, but in all fairness, this is much ado about nothing.

That was how I understood the remark too.

Jami

[OnTheBrink]

I saw this on the news earlier and it was expressed that the comment was simply an expression, not a jibe toward Palin. Nothing was said about whether Palin had anything to say about it.

[Kathleen in VA]

Well, the statement was unfortunate but I would not say he meant it as a slight to Gov. Palin. He chose to use the word lipstick - a word we now associate with Palin - not the smartest choice of words, but not exactly a gaffe.

I, too, have not seen Palin whining about it so I don't see a need for her to toughen up as someone said. It is the pundits who need to just calm down and not be so quick to jump on every little word. I am not an Obama supporter by any stretch, but good grief, I think it's pretty obvious he was saying that putting a different name on something doesn't change it.

I don't agree with what he said, though - I think McCain does want change - it's just not the same kind of change Obama was hoping for. I, on the other hand, don't want Obama's version of change. I think it's actually possible for there to be two different kinds of change.:)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I am no fan of Barack Obama, and I am certainly not voting for him (policy differences). However, having heard a long clip of the speech, I walk away with the distinct impression that he was NOT referring to Sarah Palin at all.

That's the key, I think. Before the statement, talking about President Bush's policies and Sen. McCain's policies. Immediately after the statement as if to expand the metaphor, talking about how fish, even wrapped in newspaper (heh, now that might be funny, come to think of it!) is gonna stink after eight years.

Conveniently clipping the video after the first remark and then printing only the part about the fish but not the part about "going to stink after eight years" makes a whole 'nother point than does actually listening to what was said.

Tempest in a teapot. There are bigger issues to worry about than who said what and when. Both sides have used the metaphor, and Sen. McCain used it about Sen. Clinton's healthcare policies (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/09/palin_camp_takes_umbrage_at_li.html), with Sen. Obama (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/13/AR2007091301679_pf.html) using it to say that Gen. Petreus was doing the impossible as best he could.

[PariSarah]

. . . but I have read very, very few things that Obama has said that have rubbed me the wrong way. Most of it has been the epitome of class.

So I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

I suspect this is another comment like his "above my pay grade" comment. Somebody told him he needs to talk less Harvard and more down home. I suspect that this is what he was trying.

ETA: It's possible that he or his speechwriters cared enough about Palin's lipstick comment that they're trying to reappropriate the word. Obama uses his own lipstick expression so that people don't go lipstick shopping and think "Pit bull Palin." But I doubt it.

[Michelle T]

I don't think Palin has done any whining over this.

True, she personally hasn't said anything. That would be difficult, because she is apparently not allowed to say anything to any press, or do any interviews, or answer any questions.

However, she is certainly a part of McCain's campaign, and if they are demanding an apology on her behalf, I would asssume she agrees with their viewpoint.

And I still consider it whining. They know perfectly well Obama wasn't calling her a pig. Just political spin trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.
Michelle T

[ekarl2]

I think the chances are VERY good that Obama was not thinking at all of Palin when he said this.

That being said, either he or his people need to thik about this stuff! This was scripted for goodness sake! If it can possibly be taken the wrong way, it will. Presidents speak A LOT and have to be very careful not to offend different groups.

I've always said that every ad agency needs to hire someone with a dirty mind to run things by. That way, even if a writer doesn't intend something to have another meaning, the "dirty mind guy" can catch it and say, " blah, blah, blah ... if you know what I mean!";) Or, "Blah, blah, blah ... that's what she said!":tongue_smilie: Then they'll re-write it.

In the same vein, I think political candidates need people on their staff who are easily offended who can point out stuff like this before it leaves the office, you know?

[Zelda]

I've always said that every ad agency needs to hire someone with a dirty mind to run things by. That way, even if a writer doesn't intend something to have another meaning, the "dirty mind guy" can catch it and say, " blah, blah, blah ... if you know what I mean!";) Or, "Blah, blah, blah ... that's what she said!":tongue_smilie: Then they'll re-write it.

In the same vein, I think political candidates need people on their staff who are easily offended who can point out stuff like this before it leaves the office, you know?

Where do I send my resume?

[Kathleen in VA]

I think the chances are VERY good that Obama was not thinking at all of Palin when he said this.

That being said, either he or his people need to thik about this stuff! This was scripted for goodness sake! If it can possibly be taken the wrong way, it will. Presidents speak A LOT and have to be very careful not to offend different groups.

I've always said that every ad agency needs to hire someone with a dirty mind to run things by. That way, even if a writer doesn't intend something to have another meaning, the "dirty mind guy" can catch it and say, " blah, blah, blah ... if you know what I mean!";) Or, "Blah, blah, blah ... that's what she said!":tongue_smilie: Then they'll re-write it.

In the same vein, I think political candidates need people on their staff who are easily offended who can point out stuff like this before it leaves the office, you know?

You make a very good point. I can't believe he said it from the standpoint of not realizing it would be taken out of context and used to make him look bad. And it doesn't surprise me that the McCain people are making an issue out of it. These are the last days of the race and they have to latch onto anything they can to discredit Obama. I think it may backfire in this case, though. They could have taken the high road - oh, well. I'm sure both sides are just waiting with bated breath to see the other "guy" say or do something - anything -that can be twisted to their advantage. It's the nature of the beast. Ugh!

[ekarl2]

Where do I send my resume?

Hey, get your mind out of the gutter so mine can float by!

[Zelda]

I think political candidates need people on their staff

That's what she said.

See, I can do this!

[Zelda]

Hey, get your mind out of the gutter so mine can float by!

:lol:

[Michelle in TX]

I think McCain does want change - it's just not the same kind of change Obama was hoping for. I, on the other hand, don't want Obama's version of change. I think it's actually possible for there to be two different kinds of change.:)

:iagree:

[Mom to Aly]

McCain used this same EXACT phrase ABOUT Hillary Clinton last year, in addition to stating that Chelsea Clinton was "ugly", just before that. I don't remember anyone having a fit over that! And Obama made it quite clear he was not referring to Palin, while McCain was referring to McCain.

[Erica in PA]

When I watched the clip, I thought that it was most likely that Obama was simply using that expression to describe the situation, not Palin in particular. (Though admittedly, she is very strongly associated with the word "lipstick" right now.) However, did anyone else hear the line that came next?? It wasn't included on that clip, but a few minutes ago I came across it in a transcript. Here it is: "You can wrap up an old fish in a piece of paper and call it change. It's still going to stink after eight years. We've had enough."

It sounds like he is referring to McCain as an "old fish," doesn't it? The "eight years" part makes that clear. So maybe he really did have Palin in mind with the lipstick comment?

Does anyone have a clip that goes on past that next line? Hearing how he delivered the line may make things more clear.

The crowd seems to have made the connection, with the laughter and wild applause that followed that line.

In the big scheme of things, it's not a big deal, but when I came across that line about the "OLD fish," that did catch my attention. If he was calling them names in that way, it would be surprising coming from Obama.

Erica

[Kathleen in VA]

When I watched the clip, I thought that it was most likely that Obama was simply using that expression to describe the situation, not Palin in particular. (Though admittedly, she is very strongly associated with the word "lipstick" right now.) However, did anyone else hear the line that came next?? It wasn't included on that clip, but a few minutes ago I came across it in a transcript. Here it is: "You can wrap up an old fish in a piece of paper and call it change. It's still going to stink after eight years. We've had enough."

It sounds like he is referring to McCain as an "old fish," doesn't it? The "eight years" part makes that clear. So maybe he really did have Palin in mind with the lipstick comment?

Does anyone have a clip that goes on past that next line? Hearing how he delivered the line may make things more clear.

The crowd seems to have made the connection, with the laughter and wild applause that followed that line.

In the big scheme of things, it's not a big deal, but when I came across that line about the "OLD fish," that did catch my attention. If he was calling them names in that way, it would be surprising coming from Obama.

Erica

Well, I didn't hear the clip, but from what you said I think he is referring to the eight years Bush has been president and the Republican policies for the last eight years. I think he's saying that McCain is going to just keep on doing what Bush has been doing for the last eight years. I don't think that's true, but I think that's what Obama meant. Anyone else?

[Erica in PA]

Well, I didn't hear the clip, but from what you said I think he is referring to the eight years Bush has been president and the Republican policies for the last eight years. I think he's saying that McCain is going to just keep on doing what Bush has been doing for the last eight years. I don't think that's true, but I think that's what Obama meant. Anyone else?

I am going to try to find the complete transcript, because I think that could clear things up. My understanding is that in that part of the speech, he was addressing how the Palin-McCain team was claiming that they were about change, but instead, they were the same old thing, trying to dress themselves up differently. To me, it seems pretty clear that the "old fish" is McCain-- i.e. that he is trying to present himself differently than what he really is, and that after 8 years it's really going to "stink." I'm just not as sure that he was specifically referring to Palin with the lipstick comment. I wish I could find the complete video from that speech!

Erica

[FlockOfSillies]

Well, the crowd sure seemed to get the inference, given how they cheered. And "old fish in a newspaper" -- hmmm, wonder who the old fish is in this race?

Mr. Skilled Orator, Post-Partisan New Politics, and Possessor of Superior Judgment had a hundred folksy cliches he could have used -- "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" and whatnot -- but he chose to use the word "lipstick" only a week after Palin's memorable self-deprecating joke in her convention speech about pit bulls and lipstick, a week in which Obama has been completely thrown off message and off the front page by a mere mom of five. His opponent's campaign bounce in the polls (McCain's now up by five points among registered voters) has come largely from independents and disaffected Hillary Democrats... and y'all honestly think this wasn't a jab at Palin? OK, you go on thinking that.

It's a mind-bogglingly stupid move at the very least. Now he's gotta spend time explaining it away instead of stressing his campaign themes. "Well, what I, uh, meant was, she's not the pig, she's the lipstick, I mean, uh, ah..." He can't possibly want to go there.

[FlockOfSillies]

Uh yeah, I'm familiar with the expression. I wasn't implying that he'd made it up somehow. See my reply above.

[FlockOfSillies]

Hey, get your mind out of the gutter so mine can float by!

"Have you seen my dad?" ;)

(If you haven't seen Flushed Away, just ignore this reply.)

[kokotg]

Now he's gotta spend time explaining it away instead of stressing his campaign themes. "Well, what I, uh, meant was, she's not the pig, she's the lipstick, I mean, uh, ah..." He can't possibly want to go there.

Actually, he's not saying anything like what you're describing. His campaign responded to McCain that he wasn't talking about Palin at all (it seems perfectly clear from the context that he's talking about McCain and Republicans in general) and that McCain was making "a pathetic attempt to play the gender card." He doesn't seem especially distracted from his campaign themes.

[Zelda]

Now that I've heard and read more about the incident I think its too disingenuous to suggest it has *nothing* to do with the "pitbull in lipstick" comment. It was a safe swipe since he could duck behind, "Well, McCain said it first!"

I think they needed to get people talking about Obama again and negative attention is better than no attention. Especially since the responses are totally predictable and possibly, sort of, maybe calling Palin a 'pig' (which as the benefit of evoking the idea of pork, greed)wasn't going to shift many votes. Just get his base fired up defending him. They clearly loved it and were a hootin' and hollerin' and laughing and ooohing at the joke.

I just don't know that its advisable to make these kind of references when you're already losing lady voters.

[FlockOfSillies]

Quoting from a story at Politico.com (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13315.html), "Obama, Dems sharpen personal attacks on Palin":
Democratic Congressman Russ Carnahan on Tuesday – introducing Joe Biden (http://search.politico.com/results.cfm?subject=Joseph+Biden) at a campaign event – ripped into Palin’s record and punctuated it with this snarky jab. “There’s no way you can dress up that record, even with a lot of lipstick,” he said.
Nah, they're not referring to Palin. They weren't even thinking about her, using the word "lipstick" and all. But it would have been smarter for Obama to use Carnahan's wording rather than linking "lipstick" with "pig."

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Well, the crowd sure seemed to get the inference, given how they cheered. And "old fish in a newspaper" -- hmmm, wonder who the old fish is in this race?

Mr. Skilled Orator, Post-Partisan New Politics, and Possessor of Superior Judgment had a hundred folksy cliches he could have used -- "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" and whatnot -- but he chose to use the word "lipstick" only a week after Palin's memorable self-deprecating joke in her convention speech about pit bulls and lipstick, a week in which Obama has been completely thrown off message and off the front page by a mere mom of five. His opponent's campaign bounce in the polls (McCain's now up by five points among registered voters) has come largely from independents and disaffected Hillary Democrats... and y'all honestly think this wasn't a jab at Palin? OK, you go on thinking that.

It's a mind-bogglingly stupid move at the very least. Now he's gotta spend time explaining it away instead of stressing his campaign themes. "Well, what I, uh, meant was, she's not the pig, she's the lipstick, I mean, uh, ah..." He can't possibly want to go there.

Pfft. He won't be bothered. He's got other, fresher fish to fry.

Not sure where you're getting your numbers about independents and Sen. Clinton supporters. Undecided Republicans, maybe? As for off message? Again, ?? Depends on how you view his message, I guess. And according to some, it depends on how the polls were conducted. Strange that interviewing fewer Dems (by Gallup) resulted in lower numbers reporting a vote for Sen. Obama, no? (Uh, no.)

We could go round and round about the "mind-bogglingly stupid" comment, but we'd probably just end up getting all muddy.

[nakitty]

Well, the crowd sure seemed to get the inference, given how they cheered. And "old fish in a newspaper" -- hmmm, wonder who the old fish is in this race?

Mr. Skilled Orator, Post-Partisan New Politics, and Possessor of Superior Judgment had a hundred folksy cliches he could have used -- "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" and whatnot -- but he chose to use the word "lipstick" only a week after Palin's memorable self-deprecating joke in her convention speech about pit bulls and lipstick, a week in which Obama has been completely thrown off message and off the front page by a mere mom of five. His opponent's campaign bounce in the polls (McCain's now up by five points among registered voters) has come largely from independents and disaffected Hillary Democrats... and y'all honestly think this wasn't a jab at Palin? OK, you go on thinking that.

It's a mind-bogglingly stupid move at the very least. Now he's gotta spend time explaining it away instead of stressing his campaign themes. "Well, what I, uh, meant was, she's not the pig, she's the lipstick, I mean, uh, ah..." He can't possibly want to go there.

I believe this is looking for insult where there was none.... clearly you are not a fan of Obama's... but surely you can find a real reason to not like him....

[lovemyboys]

If I were his campaign manager I'd be apoplectic but I don't know that this was anything more than an unfortunate gaffe that at this point neither side can afford to make.

It is always fun in a totally predictable way to see how the partisan pundits will react to this.


That's the way we took it when we saw it on the evening news. It's an old phrase and one that's well understood. But for the timing....

Allowing for the benefit of the doubt -- unfortunate timing or poor choice of words. If it were a little more deliberate on the candidate's or his advisors' part to use a phrase with the word lipstick in it, less than a week after Palin's joke, then they probably wish they could take it back. It didn't come off well in either of the above instances.

But that's a day in the life of a campaign, retract, rephrase and move on to the next event, right? You're right, Zelda, it keeps the pundits,etc., in their jobs. :tongue_smilie:

[FlockOfSillies]

Yep, stupid stupid stupid of them to overreact with demands for an apology. Hopefully Palin will calmly blow it off when Charlie Gibson from ABC interviews her.

[lovemyboys]

McCain
stating that Chelsea Clinton was "ugly"

Seriously? He called her "ugly?"

She's grown up into a lovely young woman!

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

That's the way we took it when we saw it on the evening news. It's an old phrase and one that's well understood. But for the timing....

Allowing for the benefit of the doubt -- unfortunate timing or poor choice of words. If it were a little more deliberate on the candidate's or his advisors' part to use a phrase with the word lipstick in it, less than a week after Palin's joke, then they probably wish they could take it back. It didn't come off well in either of the above instances.

But that's a day in the life of a campaign, retract, rephrase and move on to the next event, right? You're right, Zelda, it keeps the pundits,etc., in their jobs. :tongue_smilie:

Retract? Nah. Why should he?

I would say, "We are sorry your VP candidate was offended by our metaphors. We realize that she is new to national politics and likely does not expect this level of give and take in the political ring. We regret to say in regard to the eight years of the Bush administration, it would take more than lipstick to pretty it up. We should have remembered that before we used such inadequate language."

[kokotg]

Seriously? He called her "ugly?"

She's grown up into a lovely young woman!

He did call her ugly, but it was a long time ago (unless he's called her ugly again recently?) When she was in high school and her self esteem was no doubt at its strongest. At a Republican fund raiser:

"Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly?
Because her father is Janet Reno."

http://www.salon.com/news/1998/06/25newsb.html

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Yep, stupid stupid stupid of them to overreact with demands for an apology. Hopefully Palin will calmly blow it off when Charlie Gibson from ABC interviews her.

No doubt Charlie Gibson will set that up nicely. :D

(Nah, I'm just kidding. I don't really know much about Gibson's interview style. I'm annoyed that she's not on Meet the Press. But it's early days. I can wait.)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

He did call her ugly, but it was a long time ago (unless he's called her ugly again recently?) When she was in high school and her self esteem was no doubt at its strongest. At a Republican fund raiser:

"Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly?
Because her father is Janet Reno."

http://www.salon.com/news/1998/06/25newsb.html

I'm editing so that I won't get deleted for excessive rhetoric. But McCain has a history of telling jokes, so I don't think anyone over there is too truly worked up over lipstick-gate. You can google gorilla, McCain, joke, 1986 if you want more of that history.

[Zelda]

I'm not upset at all. Just think it looks a little desperate.

[LilyK]

I think it was more of a subconscious slip than a mean-spirited jab at Palin. Let's face it, anyone who saw her speech remembers and identifies her with lipstick. It's easy to imagine that lipstick was fresh in his memory. I must have read 6 different articles since the convention that referenced hockey moms and lipstick. Although I don't know the venue that Obama was in, it seemed fairly casual and impromptu. I think these blunders happen. Remember Hillary's infamous "arriving under fire" fiasco?

[Miss Sherry]

My impression is that when he said "You can put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig" was in regards to the political agenda of Bush, and McCain and the Republican Party. That was the content of what he was talking about when he said it.
I'm not voting for him but I don't believe at all that he was making a connection between lipstick on a pig and Palin. He wouldn't say something that stupid, I don't believe.

It would be great if both parties,including individuals not officially involved in campaigning, would stop trying to put ridiculous spins on what the other party is saying and/or doing.

[Kate in Arabia]

Hopefully Palin will calmly blow it off when Charlie Gibson from ABC interviews her.

I'm a bit dubious about this interview, and I hope Mr. Gibson avoids this topic entirely. There are so many more topics that I hope she addresses, but I'm not confident that this will be a "meaty" interview in that regard. The timing alone is highly suspect, imo.

I hope I am proven wrong.

[SFP]

From the archives at the Atlantic:

McCain criticized Democratic contenders for offering what he called costly universal health-care proposals that require too much government regulation. While he said he had not studied Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton’s plan, he said it was “eerily reminiscent” of the failed plan she offered as first lady in the 1990s.

“I think they put some lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig,” he said of her proposal.

[Erica in PA]

Quoting from a story at Politico.com (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13315.html), "Obama, Dems sharpen personal attacks on Palin":Democratic Congressman Russ Carnahan on Tuesday – introducing Joe Biden (http://search.politico.com/results.cfm?subject=Joseph+Biden) at a campaign event – ripped into Palin’s record and punctuated it with this snarky jab. “There’s no way you can dress up that record, even with a lot of lipstick,” he said.
Nah, they're not referring to Palin. They weren't even thinking about her, using the word "lipstick" and all. But it would have been smarter for Obama to use Carnahan's wording rather than linking "lipstick" with "pig."

All right, I think I'm convinced now. These speeches are so carefully worded, and thought through, there are no coincidences when it comes to themes repeated by both the Pres. and VP candidates. It's definitely an image they've decided to pick up on with regards to Palin.

I don't think it's *horrible,* but I do think it's a mistake. It's a personal attack, and so far, Obama has been able to refrain from using them. That's a big part of his charm, and I think he'd do well to get back to that.

Erica

[SFP]

Back in April:

Elizabeth Edwards told some 500 health journalists (http://www.healthjournalism.org/) the other day that John McCain’s health care plan was like “painting lipstick on a pig,” an expression from her neck of the woods that in this case means lofty-sounding words that pretty up some ideas that could hurt ordinary people who don’t understand what’s going on; that is, unless journalists tell them. The language of his plan sounds good, she argued, making it “hard to understand what’s wrong with it. “Someone has to translate for the public.” Edwards challenged reporters to do just that.

From Sept of 2007:

"I think that both General [David] Petraeus and Ambassador [Ryan] Crocker are capable people who have been given an impossible assignment," Sen. Barack Obama said yesterday in a telephone interview. "George Bush has given a mission to General Petraeus, and he has done his best to try to figure out how to put lipstick on a pig."

Torie Clarke, former McCain aide, actually published a book in 2006 called Lipstick on a Pig: Winning In the No-Spin Era by Someone Who Knows the Game.

[Erica in PA]

Back in April:

Elizabeth Edwards told some 500 health journalists (http://www.healthjournalism.org/) the other day that John McCain’s health care plan was like “painting lipstick on a pig,” an expression from her neck of the woods that in this case means lofty-sounding words that pretty up some ideas that could hurt ordinary people who don’t understand what’s going on; that is, unless journalists tell them. The language of his plan sounds good, she argued, making it “hard to understand what’s wrong with it. “Someone has to translate for the public.” Edwards challenged reporters to do just that.

From Sept of 2007:

"I think that both General [David] Petraeus and Ambassador [Ryan] Crocker are capable people who have been given an impossible assignment," Sen. Barack Obama said yesterday in a telephone interview. "George Bush has given a mission to General Petraeus, and he has done his best to try to figure out how to put lipstick on a pig."

Torie Clarke, former McCain aide, actually published a book in 2006 called Lipstick on a Pig: Winning In the No-Spin Era by Someone Who Knows the Game.

Right, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that Obama *created* this phrase. Of course it existed before he used it. Most of us have probably heard it used by politicians before. The question is whether or not he was alluding to Palin when he chose to use this particular expression. Based on what I've read of the context and what Obama said right after that about how the "old fish" is going to stink after eight years, the other lipstick jab specifically regarding Palin made by Biden just yesterday, and the reaction the crowd gave Obama after his comment, I think there's reason to believe that he chose to use this expression as an allusion to Palin.

As I said, I don't think it's a big deal, or offensive, really, just a mistake on the Obama campaign's part, because being above the fray has been one of Obama's strong points.

Erica

[LisaK in VA]

One legal phrase came to mind when hearing this yesterday (context of the speech and the subtext, how people could easilly interpret what was said)

"plausible deniability" :D

[Aggie]

"Right, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that Obama *created* this phrase. Of course it existed before he used it. Most of us have probably heard it used by politicians before. The question is whether or not he was alluding to Palin when he chose to use this particular expression. Based on what I've read of the context and what Obama said right after that about how the "old fish" is going to stink after eight years, the other lipstick jab specifically regarding Palin made by Biden just yesterday, and the reaction the crowd gave Obama after his comment, I think there's reason to believe that he chose to use this expression as an allusion to Palin.

As I said, I don't think it's a big deal, or offensive, really, just a mistake on the Obama campaign's part, because being above the fray has been one of Obama's strong points."

I agree 100% with Erica on this. There are *several* analogies Obama could've used to get his point across.

Aggie

[AmyinPA]

"Right, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that Obama *created* this phrase. Of course it existed before he used it. Most of us have probably heard it used by politicians before. The question is whether or not he was alluding to Palin when he chose to use this particular expression. Based on what I've read of the context and what Obama said right after that about how the "old fish" is going to stink after eight years, the other lipstick jab specifically regarding Palin made by Biden just yesterday, and the reaction the crowd gave Obama after his comment, I think there's reason to believe that he chose to use this expression as an allusion to Palin.

As I said, I don't think it's a big deal, or offensive, really, just a mistake on the Obama campaign's part, because being above the fray has been one of Obama's strong points."

I agree 100% with Erica on this. There are *several* analogies Obama could've used to get his point across.

Aggie

At first I thought it might have been miscontrued, but then when I actually watched it, heard the words "old" and "lipstick" , it seemed to me, that he was without a doubt referring to McCain and Palin. The "stinky fish" and "pig" were just accidental and misfortunate parts of the analogy.

At least it was a slip of the tongue occuring on the campaign trail in describing Palin and not occuring in office to describe someone such as...oh let's see...Ahmajinedad! Yikes.

[Kathleen in VA]

Well, if he was referring to McCain and he said eight years, meaning the next eight years, I think that's giving an awful lot of credit to McCain. Again, I don't support Obama, but why would he say eight years and not four years? Does he think McCain will be so popular that he will get re-elected? Maybe I'm missing something - it's happened before - but that just doesn't seem like something Obama would want to concede before we've even picked McCain for the first go-round.:confused:

[SapphireStitch]

Couldn't he have meant the "pig" part to be the old, tired Bush policies...and the "lipstick" part to refer to Palin? (If this is, in fact, a reference to Palin at all?)

Essentially saying "Yeah, you've got the lipsticked hockey mom on your team now, but that's not changing the policies underneath your rhetoric."

Oh well...I don't know why this is even bothering me.:confused: I'm not voting for either McCain or Obama.

Is it just me or does this guy :bigear: remind anyone else of a candidate from a few years back? ;)

[kokotg]

Obama does not seem to be tripping over himself trying to apologize or retract anything:

Some of you may have -- I'm assuming you guys have heard this, watching the news. I'm talking about John McCain's economic politics, I say, "This is more of the same, you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig."

And suddenly they say, "Oh, you must be talking about the governor of Alaska."

[Laughter from audience]

See it would be funny, it would be funny except -- of course the news media all decided that that was the lead story yesterday. They'd much rather have the story -- this is the McCain campaign -- would much rather have the story about phony and foolish diversions than about the future.

This happens every election cycle. Every four years. This is what we do. We've got an energy crisis. We have an education system that is not working for too many of our children and making us less competitive. We have an economy that is creating hardship for families all across America. We've got two wars going on, veterans coming home not being cared for -- and this is what they want to talk about! this is what they want to spend two of the last 55 days talking about.

You know who ends up losing at the end of the day? It's not the Democratic candidate, It's not the republican candidate. It's you, the American people. because then we go another year or another four years or another eight years without addressing the issues that matter to you. Enough.

I don't care what they say about me, but I love this country too much to let them take over another election with lies and phony outrage and swift-boat politics. Enough is enough.

[Erica in PA]

Well, if he was referring to McCain and he said eight years, meaning the next eight years, I think that's giving an awful lot of credit to McCain. Again, I don't support Obama, but why would he say eight years and not four years? Does he think McCain will be so popular that he will get re-elected? Maybe I'm missing something - it's happened before - but that just doesn't seem like something Obama would want to concede before we've even picked McCain for the first go-round.:confused:

You do make a good point there. Maybe he was referring to Bush's policies when he referred to the eight years. But that breaks down too, because he's talking about people who claim to be about change, but aren't really-- and that part of it doesn't apply to Bush. The big message from McCain and Palin in the past week has been how they are really the team for change-- so Obama was referencing them, and saying that they will be just like Bush. The question is, in referring to Palin and McCain in this part of the speech, how intentional was the use of the lipstick phrase as it relates to Palin?

Erica

[FlockOfSillies]

I've got lots of reasons not to vote for him. Probably all the reasons you are voting for him. :D I just think that this was a jaw-droppingly stupid thing for him to do.

[PrairieAir]

I am 90% sure that I will be voting for McCain in this election, but I agree that this is just an expression. Perhaps it is an unfortunate choice of expression for the situation, but I don't believe he's calling Palin a pig. It's an unfortunate choice of words in the same way, IMO, that the radio show host calling one of Palin's political opponents who happened to be a cancer survivor a cancer on the state government was a poor choice of words. Once again, I am glad I'm not in the spotlight. There would be plenty of opportunities for the media to catch me with my foot in my mouth.

[kokotg]

I've got lots of reasons not to vote for him. Probably all the reasons you are voting for him. :D I just think that this was a jaw-droppingly stupid thing for him to do.

And I think McCain's response to it was jaw-droppingly disingenuous. I've dropped my jaw a lot about McCain this year, though. I expected better from him.

[sdWTMer]

http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/blog

Click on the video under "Lipstick on a Pig." Unbelievable.

From the DNC Website (http://www.democrats.org/page/community/post/elizabethberry/Cgsq)

This first sentence proves that it was about Palin.

[PariSarah]

This first sentence proves that it was about Palin.

This is a blog post from someone else, right? Who happened to use the same phrase, only with specific reference to Palin?

I understand that many people are taking it as a reference to Palin, and running with it, but how does this show what Obama meant?

[Jennifer3141]

This is a blog post from someone else, right? Who happened to use the same phrase, only with specific reference to Palin?

I understand that many people are taking it as a reference to Palin, and running with it, but how does this show what Obama meant?

Good question!

Jen

[laylamcb]

From the DNC Website (http://www.democrats.org/page/community/post/elizabethberry/Cgsq)

This first sentence proves that it was about Palin.

But the second sentence says,

"Palin does not change one single thing of what the Republicans are offering which is four more years of George Bush. All that McCain did was to put lipstick on the Pig (the Bush Administration whose failed strategies have wrecked our nation). Nothing has changed except for an exciting and sexy dash of lipstick to freshen up their tired old face of more of the same."

So the way I read it, Palin is the lipstick--the pig is Dubya. I think Palin comes off pretty well in that analogy. :001_huh:

Again, no dog in this race for me. There's plenty of nastiness to go around on both sides--always has been, always will be. But I honestly believe, in my pea-pickin' heart, that Obama was incorporating an expression that would be familiar to all of his audience (even if it was an unfortunate choice of words). Say what you will about Obama--I simply cannot see him calling Palin or any other woman a pig. I know that he's far too savvy (and I hope that he's far too gentlemanly) for that. :001_smile:

[lovemyboys]

Retract? Nah. Why should he?


Agree! And I would seriously doubt that Palin is bothered by it. It's pretty clear from the clip that it was casually done.

Sorry, my last line was meant to be general. It was late and I wasn't clear.

I was thinking of Zelda's comment that the pundits go to town on this stuff and take minor slips or nuances or a poor choice of words as their central focus. At the same time, they completely ignore or brush by more substantial comments.

Like last night, the lipstick comment got so much coverage whereas the clip with Palin talking about the "bridge to nowhere" during the debates and the clip with Obama saying he's "not ready to be president in '08" were barely shown. Those would seem to be much more significant things to hear the details about. :confused:

[LisaK in VA]

Well, the entire little section until the "Lipstick on a Pig" comment was lifted from a cartoon shown in the Washington Post on 9/5.

Here (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/warner-todd-huston/2008/09/10/did-obama-steal-his-lip-stick-pig-speech-political-cartoon) is a transcript of the specific portion of his speech, and the cartoon it came from...

So, that begs the question -- if the speech was written prior to the event, and not "off the cuff," what are the odds that the "Lipstick on a Pig" comment wasn't planned, but instead calculated? :001_huh:

[Jugglin'5]

I thought it was an unintentional gaffe until I heard the rest of it. He went on to say that you can't wrap an old fish up in paper and not expect it to stink. He's a very smart man. Surely he couldn't have had two allusions like this in a row, first to Palin, then to McCain, by accident? Maybe he could, but if so he is incredibly tone-deaf. I'm dubious.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Well, if he was referring to McCain and he said eight years, meaning the next eight years, I think that's giving an awful lot of credit to McCain. Again, I don't support Obama, but why would he say eight years and not four years? Does he think McCain will be so popular that he will get re-elected? Maybe I'm missing something - it's happened before - but that just doesn't seem like something Obama would want to concede before we've even picked McCain for the first go-round.:confused:

Well, no. He meant the last eight years of the Bush administration, aided, says he (fairly or unfairly and for the individual voter to decide), by Sen. McCain. He says it's an old fish that stinks, and even if you wrap it in newspaper it's still gonna stink.

Look at the quote in the context of what was said before. The Bush/McCain/Republican "regime" of the past eight years. You can dress it up, put some lipstick on it, but it doesn't make it anything but what it is. Then afterwards, the eight years wrapped up in newspaper doesn't make it better or less "stinky" than unwrapped.

It's similie. Administration = old fish. "Wrongheadedness" of said administration = pig. Neither lipstick nor newspaper can help it.

But that's what I heard. And yeah, I may be on the other side, but in my defense, I don't hear Palin saying that the war in Iraq is "God's task" like so many others do because *I listened to the flippin' speech word for word*. Context.

[Jami]

I don't suppose any of you heard NPR's All Things Considered tonight around 6:20? They had Joel Salatin on air, at his farm, put lipstick on a pig. :smilielol5:

Evidently the pig didn't really care for it and really didn't look much improved with the lipstick.

It was very funny to listen to Robert Seigel (? Isn't that the host's name?) and Joel Salatin having this conversation.

They also played clips of several other politicians (Dems and Repubs) using this phrase.

The poor pig. But Joel S. assured the audience that no animals were harmed in the recording of that segment. ;)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

The poor pig. But Joel S. assured the audience that no animals were harmed in the recording of that segment. ;)

Had the lipstick in question been tested on animals? That's what I want to know.

:D

[Kelli in TN]

Had the lipstick in question been tested on animals? That's what I want to know.

:D

Well. It has been now, hasn't it?

[Jami]

Well. It has been now, hasn't it?

:lol: Yes, and evidently that shade of red wasn't the right one.


Let me see if I can find the clip, it really cracked me up! But I'm easily humored.

[Jami]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94481288

Here's the link for other's listening amusement.

[Peek a Boo]

Well, the statement was unfortunate but I would not say he meant it as a slight to Gov. Palin. He chose to use the word lipstick - a word we now associate with Palin - not the smartest choice of words, but not exactly a gaffe.

I, too, have not seen Palin whining about it so I don't see a need for her to toughen up as someone said. It is the pundits who need to just calm down and not be so quick to jump on every little word. I am not an Obama supporter by any stretch, but good grief, I think it's pretty obvious he was saying that putting a different name on something doesn't change it.

I don't agree with what he said, though - I think McCain does want change - it's just not the same kind of change Obama was hoping for. I, on the other hand, don't want Obama's version of change. I think it's actually possible for there to be two different kinds of change.:)

:iagree:

almost word. for. word.

well, I don't want McCain's version of change either, lol.
:D

i do think it would do Obama a lot of good [politically] to just erase the word lipstick from his vocabulary for a while.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

:iagree:

almost word. for. word.

well, I don't want McCain's version of change either, lol.
:D

i do think it would do Obama a lot of good [politically] to just erase the word lipstick from his vocabulary for a while.

On the other hand, him embracing the word would be fun to watch. :D I for one hope he doesn't let his vocabulary choices be dictated by the other side's righteous "indignation."

[FlockOfSillies]

Yeah, I think he flubbed the response. Should've played it much cooler; now it just sounds like, "We can be just as whiny and thin-skinned as you! Harumph!" I wish I could just call him up and say, "Shut up! Shut up already! You're not helping!" LOL.

There's an expression I've heard about politics: "Winners aren't perfect; they just make fewer mistakes than the other guy." Whoever wins in November will be the epitome of that idea. This whole campaign has turned out a lot differently from what a lot of people were expecting. Remember all the talk about Rudy vs. Hillary? That was eons ago. It's like Mr. Toad's Wild Ride this time.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

On the other hand, him embracing the word would be fun to watch. :D I for one hope he doesn't let his vocabulary choices be dictated by the other side's righteous "indignation."

LOL, update on embracing and not apologizing, Obama on Letterman (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/10/obama_on_letterman_talks_lipst.html): "It's a common expression in at least Illinois. I don't know about in New York City. I don't know what you guys put lipstick on here."

The rest is linked, but that made me howl! :lol:

[Momto4kids]

Oh my gosh I can not believe this has gone on for 9 pages!!

I really think that Obama did not mean this against Palin, and even if he did, she is a confessed pit bull. I am pretty sure she can handle it.

[Peek a Boo]

On the other hand, him embracing the word would be fun to watch. :D I for one hope he doesn't let his vocabulary choices be dictated by the other side's righteous "indignation."
no, i don't think he'd do it because of someone else's "indignation," only because he seems to have been interested in running as clean a campaign as possible. The people that agree with him on the issues won't need to hear about lipstick to vote for him ;)

[FlockOfSillies]

Oh, did I nail it (http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showpost.php?p=520329&postcount=1)or what?

"Keep in mind that technically, had I meant it this way, she would be the lipstick," Obama added, referring to GOP vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin. "The policies of John McCain would be the pig."

"Had I meant it this way" my eye!

[mLeroux]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMPYkNQlJMM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMHlIfOTS1c&feature=iv

nyc mom

[kokotg]

Oh, did I nail it (http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showpost.php?p=520329&postcount=1)or what?



"Had I meant it this way" my eye!


uhh, he was on David Letterman. It was a joking comment on the absurdity of the situation. I'm fascinated by how differently people can see the same situation. For ME, I feel like when the McCain campaign overreacts so much that Bill O'Reilly is speaking up to defend Obama, it's clear they've totally overplayed their hand to the point of self-parody.

[Jugglin'5]

Well, I think Obama meant it, BUT I believe McCain is making a political mistake to whine about it. Conservatives do not do well acting the victim. Sarah should just continue to be cheerful, optimistic, and stick the pin back in him in her exquisite way, with a smile, of course. :)

uhh, he was on David Letterman. It was a joking comment on the absurdity of the situation. I'm fascinated by how differently people can see the same situation. For ME, I feel like when the McCain campaign overreacts so much that Bill O'Reilly is speaking up to defend Obama, it's clear they've totally overplayed their hand to the point of self-parody.