Anyone seen this poster??

[BMW]

I was reading about the commercials. Just yesterday I was at a public health office and was in a waiting area. There was a poster with a woman flexing her muscle with a tattoo of: EC. The main words on the poster were something about knowing you can get Emergency Contraception. What got me, though, was the number of children and pre-teens that would go through that room and read the poster. It flew right over my sons head - he isn't a good reader and isn't very interested in asking questions about what he sees, necessarily. But my other boys would have read it all and started asking away... The poster had darted statements, like: If you forgot to take your pill.... If your condom broke while in use... AAAAH!

Bee

[VaKim]

Haven't see that (thankfully), but I think we are living in Sodom and Gomorrah now. :sad:

Thankfully, we live in a backwoods "Mayberry" type town, and don't often see such trash. As long as we don't go too far from home, anyway.

[riada]

In our town there is a gigantic billboard that is all black and in HUGE white writing reads "1+1=3, Talk to your kids about S*X". Nice. I avoided driving by it with my children but occasionally would forget. My 9 year old understood it and it wasn't too bad. My 5 year old didn't get it and sparked all kinds of questions as to why 1+1 would equal 3 and not 2. I understand that they think they are doing the community a service by bringing it up but then it also makes younger children more aware of things than they need to be, imo.

(sigh) what is it all coming to?:glare:

[Kleine Hexe]

I do not have a problem with it. I also don't have a problem with the herpes commercials on TV.

[Jennifer3141]

I'd rather have that poster than one of the so called "pro life" posters stuck in there.

Jen

[asta]

The town I just moved from had +/- 13 year olds pushing strollers carrying their own children. (and no, they're not part of a happy family unit)

Ergo, I don't have a problem with those types of public service announcements / posters (1+1=3, condoms, etc.). I find them to be much easier to explain than the "pro-life" advertisements with aborted fetuses on them.


asta

[dawn of ns]

Ergo, I don't have a problem with those types of public service announcements / posters (1+1=3, condoms, etc.). I find them to be much easier to explain than the "pro-life" advertisements with aborted fetuses on them.
asta

Ditto. The public service stuff I just see as an opportunity to have a discussion with the kids...If they even notice it. I'd be upset with the pro-life stuff you described though. Thankfully the pro-life posters I've seen around here are pretty restrained so they're discussion-fodder too.

[Mamabegood]

I saw that at my doctor's office, right above the kids' books and toys. I guess for those who think an 8 year old needs to know what to do "if the condom breaks," or the best way to treat herpes, feel free to have that discussion with your own kid. Don't make me have it with mine by placing inappropriate ads in inappropriate places.

I switched doctors, btw.

[camibami]

I don't think they are bad- its a public health clinic, after all. Not a pediatrician.

And for us, one of the benefits to hsing is discussing sex with our kids, not them getting it at school from their friends on the playground. This means that in our family, my DD knew her 9 year old buddy was wrong when she said Zoey 101 got pregnant from kissing a boy for more than 30 seconds, LOL. So the posters aren't telling my kids anything they don't know, LOL.

[Jenny in Atl]

Haven't see that (thankfully), but I think we are living in Sodom and Gomorrah now. :sad:

Thankfully, we live in a backwoods "Mayberry" type town, and don't often see such trash. As long as we don't go too far from home, anyway.



West Virginia Teenage Birth Rate Increases For First Time In Eight Years

Main Category: Pregnancy / Obstetrics
Also Included In: Pediatrics / Children's Health
Article Date: 18 Jul 2008 - 7:00 PDT


Similar to a national trend, the teenage birth rate in West Virginia has increased for the first time in eight years, the Charleston Daily Mail reports. According to the Daily Mail, 2,602 teenagers gave birth in 2006, compared with 2,472 in 2005 (Anderson, Charleston Daily Mail, 7/15).

Denise Smith, director of the state Department of Health and Human Resources' family planning program, said that recent studies have found an increase in the rate of teen pregnancies and a leveling off of condom use -- serving as reminders for public health officials. "It kind of warns us not to get complacent and there's still a big job to be done," Smith said (AP/Huntington Herald-Dispatch, 7/16).

West Virginia provides educational resources about teen pregnancy to young people beginning in middle school through the state Adolescent Pregnancy Prevention Initiative program. From Jan. 1, 2007, to June 30, 2007, the program conducted 296 presentations on teen pregnancy to more than 13,169 students. Smith said that with only four coordinators, the program's outreach is limited. She added that increased media attention to celebrity pregnancies have somewhat "glamorized" pregnancy and hurt efforts to reduce the rate among teens.

Bill Albert, chief program officer for the National Campaign To Prevent Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy, said that as the influence of the media increases, the influence of parents is fading. Smith said she also is witnessing less protective influences in teens' lives, with fewer family and community members teaching them how to avoid getting pregnant by encouraging responsible behaviors. Albert pointed to federal funding for abstinence-only education and strict rules banning discussion of contraception in schools as factors for the increasing teen pregnancy rate (Charleston Daily Mail, 7/15).

Reprinted with kind permission from http://www.nationalpartnership.org. You can view the entire Daily Women's Health Policy Report, search the archives, or sign up for email delivery here. The Daily Women's Health Policy Report is a free service of the National Partnership for Women & Families, published by The Advisory Board Company.

© 2008 The Advisory Board Company. All rights reserved.

[Carrie1234]

I'm completely torn in half on the subject.

In our house, even with our children being young, we touch on a lot of sex/pregnancy topics. We also support spreading knowledge to preteens and young adults.

Still, I know how much I oppose our local nudey bar billboard, so I understand how it feels to run into exposures I don't approve of.

I will say that our local billboard doesn't *help* anyone, and that does make a difference in my opinion.

[VaKim]

West Virginia Teenage Birth Rate Increases For First Time In Eight Years

Main Category: Pregnancy / Obstetrics
Also Included In: Pediatrics / Children's Health
Article Date: 18 Jul 2008 - 7:00 PDT


Similar to a national trend, the teenage birth rate in West Virginia has increased for the first time in eight years, the Charleston Daily Mail reports. According to the Daily Mail, 2,602 teenagers gave birth in 2006, compared with 2,472 in 2005 (Anderson, Charleston Daily Mail, 7/15).

Denise Smith, director of the state Department of Health and Human Resources' family planning program, said that recent studies have found an increase in the rate of teen pregnancies and a leveling off of condom use -- serving as reminders for public health officials. "It kind of warns us not to get complacent and there's still a big job to be done," Smith said (AP/Huntington Herald-Dispatch, 7/16).

West Virginia provides educational resources about teen pregnancy to young people beginning in middle school through the state Adolescent Pregnancy Prevention Initiative program. From Jan. 1, 2007, to June 30, 2007, the program conducted 296 presentations on teen pregnancy to more than 13,169 students. Smith said that with only four coordinators, the program's outreach is limited. She added that increased media attention to celebrity pregnancies have somewhat "glamorized" pregnancy and hurt efforts to reduce the rate among teens.

Bill Albert, chief program officer for the National Campaign To Prevent Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy, said that as the influence of the media increases, the influence of parents is fading. Smith said she also is witnessing less protective influences in teens' lives, with fewer family and community members teaching them how to avoid getting pregnant by encouraging responsible behaviors. Albert pointed to federal funding for abstinence-only education and strict rules banning discussion of contraception in schools as factors for the increasing teen pregnancy rate (Charleston Daily Mail, 7/15).

Reprinted with kind permission from http://www.nationalpartnership.org. You can view the entire Daily Women's Health Policy Report, search the archives, or sign up for email delivery here. The Daily Women's Health Policy Report is a free service of the National Partnership for Women & Families, published by The Advisory Board Company.

© 2008 The Advisory Board Company. All rights reserved.

Not sure what that has to do with me. I live in VA. Also, not sure what it has to do with anything. Especially not borderline pornographic posters in public.

[Laura Corin]

Also, not sure what it has to do with anything. Especially not borderline pornographic posters in public.

I don't see anything in the description of the poster by the OP that is 'borderline pornographic'. It sounds anything but titillating.

Laura

[VaKim]

I don't see anything in the description of the poster by the OP that is 'borderline pornographic'. It sounds anything but titillating.

Laura

I think it all comes down to a difference in worldview. :)

[Jenny in Atl]

Not sure what that has to do with me. I live in VA. Also, not sure what it has to do with anything. Especially not borderline pornographic posters in public.

No, not pointing at you but at the mindset that talking about contraception is some how akin to Sodom and Gomorrah. Rates of pregnancy go up when folks stop talking to their teens. You can stick your head in the sand all you wish and think sex before marriage is a sin, but most kids, even well raise kids of faith at some point become sexually active. I have met very few adults that made it to their marriage bed a virgin. Do you know many? I'm no fan of most US TV, magazines, and such, but to call this ad pornographic is sad at best.

[VaKim]

No, not pointing at you but at the mindset that talking about contraception is some how akin to Sodom and Gomorrah. Rates of pregnancy go up when folks stop talking to their teens. You can stick your head in the sand all you wish and think sex before marriage is a sin, but most kids, even well raise kids of faith at some point become sexually active. I have met very few adults that made it to their marriage bed a virgin. Do you know many? I'm no fan of most US TV, magazines, and such, but to call this ad pornographic is sad at best.

Well, as someone above stated, one of the benefits of homeschooling is that we, the parents, get to decide when and how to present such things to our children. If this kind of stuff is posted all over the place where kids can see it, we are forced to talk about stuff our children are not old enough to have any need to know about. Again, it all comes down to worldview. We are extremely conservative Christians, and doing what we feel the Lord would have us do. If you are not coming from the same viewpoint, you cannot possibly understand. (That is "you" in general.)

It is no different than all the trashy magazines displayed in grocery checkout lines. I don't even like to see that stuff myself, let alone expose my children to it. Those not blessed enough to be sheltered from it have no choice anymore though, unfortunately.

[VaKim]

Why exactly is it that there is such an increase in teen pregnancy, if indeed all this information is such a good deterrent? Seems to me that back before all this kind of "public service" information was allowed, there were a whole lot fewer pregnancies. Same goes for "sex ed" in ps. The rate of teen pregnancy has increased as the amount of information has increased.

[Jenny in Atl]

Why exactly is it that there is such an increase in teen pregnancy, if indeed all this information is such a good deterrent? Seems to me that back before all this kind of "public service" information was allowed, there were a whole lot fewer pregnancies. Same goes for "sex ed" in ps. The rate of teen pregnancy has increased as the amount of information has increased.

Actually rates were going down until the early 00's. Then funding for many of these programs were either cut or abstinence only programs replaced them. Then the rates started going back up. If a child does not understand how their body really works, how can they know to say no!

[genie]

Why exactly is it that there is such an increase in teen pregnancy, if indeed all this information is such a good deterrent? Seems to me that back before all this kind of "public service" information was allowed, there were a whole lot fewer pregnancies. Same goes for "sex ed" in ps. The rate of teen pregnancy has increased as the amount of information has increased.

I couldn't tell you why "exactly", but it would only be fair to note that all types of information have increased in the same time period, including teens' access to material of a sexual nature. I can only imagine how much worse it would be if there weren't public service information available to teens.

[Cheryl in NM]

Unfortunately, sex ed happened earlier than I wanted for ds. Dh has 2 older kids and they came to live with us when they were 13 & 14. It was amazing the stuff they'd say and not think twice that I, an adult and their step-mom, and ds (5) were right there. Some stuff I just flat didn't explain and told the step-kids to watch what they say and that they shouldn't be thinking about that stuff anyway. Their mother is VERY permissive so they had access to all kinds of inappropriate tv. Thank God she didn't have the internet!

Besides that, though, we had to have some form of sex-type talk before that due to Dh's kids coming and going from the house and having a different mother. I would not have wanted that for my child if I could have chosen it (of course, I didn't want it for DH's kids either if I could have controlled that!). Anyway, I digress. Life gets in the way sometimes we, as parents, have to decide whether to say "you're not old enough to understand yet" or "Here's what that means...". I hate when that decision is forced on me, especially when it's somehting as ucky as abortion! How do you explain that to your kids?! All 3 kids have found it horribly disgusting even in instances of rape and incest. Dh and I don't talk about it usually and when we first explained it to each child in turn we were very clinical in what we said and the reasons given for women getting abortions. What I'm trying to say is that we didn't put our viewpoints into the discussion until the kids reacted. Kids are pretty smart sometimes, KWIM?

Anyway, I digress again. I don't like those kinds of posters. I think each family should decide when and how to educate their children. If children fall through the cracks and end up in the system then of course they should be informed but not in a public place.

[VaKim]

I couldn't tell you why "exactly", but it would only be fair to note that all types of information have increased in the same time period, including teens' access to material of a sexual nature. I can only imagine how much worse it would be if there weren't public service information available to teens.

That can only be speculation.

[VaKim]

Actually rates were going down until the early 00's. Then funding for many of these programs were either cut or abstinence only programs replaced them. Then the rates started going back up. If a child does not understand how their body really works, how can they know to say no!

Well, my kids definitely know how such things work by the time such things actually do work. They don't, however, need to know such things at the age of 5 or 6 (depending on how soon they can read).

Again, I just think it should be up to parents to decide when and how to present the information.

[Mom to Aly]

Well, as someone above stated, one of the benefits of homeschooling is that we, the parents, get to decide when and how to present such things to our children. If this kind of stuff is posted all over the place where kids can see it, we are forced to talk about stuff our children are not old enough to have any need to know about. Again, it all comes down to worldview. We are extremely conservative Christians, and doing what we feel the Lord would have us do. If you are not coming from the same viewpoint, you cannot possibly understand. (That is "you" in general.)

It is no different than all the trashy magazines displayed in grocery checkout lines. I don't even like to see that stuff myself, let alone expose my children to it. Those not blessed enough to be sheltered from it have no choice anymore though, unfortunately.

Well, although I am neither conservative, nor Christian, I certainly would prefer not to have a lot of conversations with my daughter, but have had to, partly because she does see the trashy magazines at B&N, at grocery stores (I am a single, homeschooling mom--divorced--and she goes everywhere with me), news stands, etc.), and partly because some subjects you can't hide them from unless you keep them locked in the house, away from everything, at least in my opinion (predators, etc.). My daughter has a natural curiosity about some things, & I feel to put her off would allow her imagination to run wild, which, about some things, could be worse than the truth, as horrible as it may be. Just because I do not "shelter" my child from those "truths" does not mean she is any less "blessed", or I love her any less.

And this was not posted "anywhere"--it was posted in a place where a lot of teens go for information, where a lot of teenage mothers go, and a lot of teens would not know what to do if their condom broke. I think this was a very useful, and helpful, public service ad! I am very impressed, not only that it was there, but with the way the ad was done--it would probably catch the eye of many teenagers!

Also, as many studies have shown, not teaching children about birth control (which does include abstinance) does not help them not to get pregnant. If they are determined to have sex, they usually will. If you feel you have raised your child "correctly", no school teaching them about birth control, or an ad talking about what to do if their condom breaks, or an ad about planned parenthood, is going to lead them "into temptation". It can only, hopefully, help someone who is already going down that path not to end up in a situation they are not ready to handle.

I have to add to this, it has been a few years since I've been there, but it always stunned me that, I believe it was in SC (maybe GA, please don't jump on me if I have them mixed up, a nice correct would be fine) they would not allow planned parenthood or pro-choice billboards, but allowed very close to pornographic billboards for strip clubs up and down the highways--so close that this very liberal mom was terribly embarrassed to have my daughter see them at all! I'm wondering if that law has changed at all?

[genie]

That can only be speculation.

The increase in access to material of a sexual nature is far from speculation. As to the other part, that's precisely why I said "I can only imagine".

[VaKim]

I'm bowing out of this one now, because it can only go in circles. I should have learned that a long time ago. People coming from such differing world views cannot help but to disagree. It would be like me arguing with a Hindu about whose religion is right. Serves no purpose. Goes nowhere. :)

[Jenny in Atl]

Well, my kids definitely know how such things work by the time such things actually do work. They don't, however, need to know such things at the age of 5 or 6 (depending on how soon they can read).

Again, I just think it should be up to parents to decide when and how to present the information.

So I gather you don't live near animals. Hard not to see where babies come from all around you in the natural world.

[Michelle T]

I was reading about the commercials. Just yesterday I was at a public health office and was in a waiting area. There was a poster with a woman flexing her muscle with a tattoo of: EC. The main words on the poster were something about knowing you can get Emergency Contraception. What got me, though, was the number of children and pre-teens that would go through that room and read the poster. It flew right over my sons head - he isn't a good reader and isn't very interested in asking questions about what he sees, necessarily. But my other boys would have read it all and started asking away... The poster had darted statements, like: If you forgot to take your pill.... If your condom broke while in use... AAAAH!

Bee


I would imagine there are plenty of clients in a public health office who are young, single women who are pregnant, or have young children. I would consider the poster to be quite relevant to that group of people.

Now, I'd think it strange to see it in a pediatrician's office.
Michelle T

[Laura K (NC)]

So I gather you don't live near animals. Hard not to see where babies come from all around you in the natural world.
I've not seen pornography among animals, nor contraception ("emergency" :glare: or otherwise), nor abortions. All those abberations come from homo sapiens, not any other "natural" animal.

[Jenny in Atl]

I've not seen pornography among animals, nor contraception ("emergency" :glare: or otherwise), nor abortions. All those abberations come from homo sapiens, not any other "natural" animal.

She was saying her 5 year old does not need to know where babies come from. All I was saying is that there is sex all around us in nature. If you have even a slightly curious child who loves nature, sex is going to come up early. And so far as animal abortions go, well no they are not that advanced, but they will leave their young or eat them (certain species) when food is in short supply or if there is too much competition for space. The aberrations you speak of come from humans having way too much time on their hands. You won't solve it by hiding.

[Mom to Aly]

So I gather you don't live near animals. Hard not to see where babies come from all around you in the natural world.

Yes, there is a long period where you must take care at our zoo if you don't want to have a very specific biology lesson with your kids ;).

[BMW]

As the op, what bothered me was that this was a waiting area for all ages and, like another person mentioned, I don't want to have a "what is a condom and why would it break, mom?" discussion... fwiw, I am not a head in the sand kind of gal... I think these posters serve a purpose, perhaps in a general practice room that is not used by children?? I am all for pre-teens and teens being educated about how s*xual choices will affect them and consequences and, what if they did NOT want that experience and found themselves taken advantage of... and although I have passed on my beliefs about these "life experiences" (save it for marriage type stand) to my children, I have covered birth control topics as well as outright discussions of consequences... phew... sure wish I could just stick my head in the sand... well, I wish we lived in a safe society, without diseases... where pre-teens and teens didn't grow up so fast and s*xuality wasn't all over the place...

There's so much involved...

[astrid]

I don't see anything in the description of the poster by the OP that is 'borderline pornographic'. It sounds anything but titillating.

Laura

I agree, Laura.

astrid

[Martha]

Actually, my biggest gripe about it is the promoting of tattoos. If this is targeted towards minors such as teens, they don't need to encourage the "coolness" of tattoos to do it.

If a child does not understand how their body really works, how can they know to say no!

3 separate issues in that statement

a. knowing when to say no is pretty clear even to a little kid - you say no when what should be private and personal on your body starts to include a 2nd party. IOW, I don't need to know how my body works to know a guy shouldn't put his hand (or anything else) in my pants.

b. knowing how one's body works has nothing to do with birth control. I'm VERY aware of EXACTLY how my body works and it works just fine without birth control. Birth control is a chemical or barrier method that changes the normal healthly workings of the body - it does not enhance it.

c. knowing how one's body works with or without birth control has nothing to do with one's ability to say "no" - in fact they may very well decide to say yes because of that knowledge and use.

If they are determined to have sex, they usually will. If you feel you have raised your child "correctly", no school teaching them about birth control, or an ad talking about what to do if their condom breaks, or an ad about planned parenthood, is going to lead them "into temptation". It can only, hopefully, help someone who is already going down that path not to end up in a situation they are not ready to handle.

I really don't get this arguement and I've seen no evidence that it's true either. I grew up in a highschool that had free and unquestioned confidential access to planned parenthood and probably 80% of the girls in my classes were on some form of birth control. The problem? Kids that aren't mature enough to handle grown up relationships and babies and personal medical care and all that comes with having sex like adults - they weren't mature enough to take birth control either. They'd forget a pill have sex and think they could take a couple more pills to make up for it. They'd risk forgetting a condom or forget to go back to the clinic for their bc shot. There was NO exception to these things of all the teen girls I knew in highschool. And many of them ended up pregnant anyways.

So I gather you don't live near animals. Hard not to see where babies come from all around you in the natural world.

I don't care if my kids know where babies come from. Yes there's the animals and then there's the seems like forever pregnant mom.;)

But birth control and abortion and such is NOT about where babies come from. It's about telling people that babies shouldn't come and are to be avoided.

Yes, my children know all about abortion, birth control, and more from a very young age. Partly because I am honest with them when they ask questions, but mostly because they are told things by people who feel they have the right to say rude and stupid things about us just because we have a large family.

Yes, thank you very much I do know what causes this and that there is a pill for it and I can get rid of it.

So yes, my young children are horrified to know some people don't want their babies and the lengths they will go to to get rid of them or prevent them. Just about anything it seems - except not have sex.:glare:

[Mom to Aly]

As the op, what bothered me was that this was a waiting area for all ages and, like another person mentioned, I don't want to have a "what is a condom and why would it break, mom?" discussion... fwiw, I am not a head in the sand kind of gal... I think these posters serve a purpose, perhaps in a general practice room that is not used by children?? I am all for pre-teens and teens being educated about how s*xual choices will affect them and consequences and, what if they did NOT want that experience and found themselves taken advantage of... and although I have passed on my beliefs about these "life experiences" (save it for marriage type stand) to my children, I have covered birth control topics as well as outright discussions of consequences... phew... sure wish I could just stick my head in the sand... well, I wish we lived in a safe society, without diseases... where pre-teens and teens didn't grow up so fast and s*xuality wasn't all over the place...

There's so much involved...


If this were in a general practice office, kids could see it there to. I have always taken my dd with me to the dr., simply because I have no other choice, and I see plenty of other kids there. And I think the point was that there are plenty of teens and others who could use this info.

What I don't get, and I really don't mean this in a bad way at all, is, if this really bothered you that much, why you didn't move? I know your kids could have read it, but, in my county's public health office they have info up about AIDS, etc., and other things people may not want their kids to read about, and I do read everything, in case there is something I think I don't want my daughter to see (not AIDS, but alzheimer's, because my mom is going through that, and I think it might be hard on my dd to sit and look at it). I am careful about where we sit because of that, and look before we do. I think that is just being careful.

[Peek a Boo]

Ergo, I don't have a problem with those types of public service announcements / posters (1+1=3, condoms, etc.). I find them to be much easier to explain than the "pro-life" advertisements with aborted fetuses on them.


since abortion is a hot topic at my house, my guys have a pretty detailed working knowledge about sex and pregnancy. The poster in question doesn't bother me too much --I'd likely use it to launch into a moderately loud discussion about premarital sex and sexual irresponsibility. For as long as I was stuck waiting. but then again, i believe that even teens can be taught to control their actions --they aren't stupid.

i do agree that knowledge is imperative. I just find it ironic that witholding/denying what every credible human embryology textbook says about the beginnings of a human life is considered "knowledgeable."

and i absolutely agree that aborted fetuses are difficult to explain.

[dragons in the flower bed]

I've not seen pornography among animals, nor contraception ("emergency" or otherwise), nor abortions. All those abberations come from homo sapiens, not any other "natural" animal.

No, you're right. The natural route, practiced (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,912086,00.html) by animals, is infanticide.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I've not seen pornography among animals, nor contraception ("emergency" :glare: or otherwise), nor abortions. All those abberations come from homo sapiens, not any other "natural" animal.

Panda porn worked for the pandas (http://www.reuters.com/article/gc08/idUSBKK10098320070327), right? Probably because they couldn't observe the real thing in the wild.

[Jenny in Atl]

Panda porn worked for the pandas (http://www.reuters.com/article/gc08/idUSBKK10098320070327), right? Probably because they couldn't observe the real thing in the wild.

I totally forgot about this! :lol:

[BMW]

As the op, this was simply a notice of what is going on in society today... a poster like that several years ago and particularly decades ago, would be shocking... I didn't say that in my op or follow up, I mentioned what the poster was (op) and that it would make me feel uncomfortable having to discuss why or how a condom would break (follow up post) with my 9 yr old child. Looking at it after these responses, my intent was more of pointing out what it is like now... I think it is sad what goes on with the youth of our culture.

Bee

[Jenny in Atl]

As the op, this was simply a notice of what is going on in society today... a poster like that several years ago and particularly decades ago, would be shocking... I didn't say that in my op or follow up, I mentioned what the poster was (op) and that it would make me feel uncomfortable having to discuss why or how a condom would break (follow up post) with my 9 yr old child. Looking at it after these responses, my intent was more of pointing out what it is like now... I think it is sad what goes on with the youth of our culture.

Bee

Yes, and many years ago a pregnant teen would be sent away in shame to give birth hidden away from her family. We have come a long way haven't we.

[beansprouts]

Yes, and many years ago a pregnant teen would be sent away in shame to give birth hidden away from her family. We have come a long way haven't we.

We have definitely gone from one extreme to the next. There must be a middle ground here, one where good choices are taught and encouraged, yet compassion is shown to those who make mistakes.

[Cheryl in NM]

Also, as many studies have shown, not teaching children about birth control (which does include abstinance) does not help them not to get pregnant. If they are determined to have sex, they usually will. If you feel you have raised your child "correctly", no school teaching them about birth control, or an ad talking about what to do if their condom breaks, or an ad about planned parenthood, is going to lead them "into temptation". It can only, hopefully, help someone who is already going down that path not to end up in a situation they are not ready to handle.

I disagree with this position. Seeing something over and over again desensitizes people. As these teens see ads for contraceptives and abortion, but not abstinence they will begin to forget that abstinence is a viable and the ONLY reliable (beside sterilization) form of birth control.

Only you (the proverbial you) know your children and what information will be helpful to them. My mom, OTH, was WAY off. The things she told me made me MORE curious. That, coupled, with good old fashioned rebellion is why I lost my virginity in high school. I sure wish I would have waited until I was more mature and had more self respect. I would have benefited from posters telling me to wait more than where to get the b/c.

Also, a public health office is just that. That means that younger children will be exposed to these posters. Not every child is ready for the info portrayed in a public space. I would not want to use those public services because I didn't want my children exposed to those posters. That's why I suggested that those posters could be placed in a more appropriate place to help those that need them.

[Laura K (NC)]

There were maybe 5 girls pregnant in my high school of about 1000. I remember 4 that were obviously and openly pregnant. One girl was pregnant with her 2nd in her senior year. One other girl was trying to hide her pregnancy and was successful until she gave birth at school. Now that was shocking!

25 years ago there were shows like Saturday Night Live and TV channels like MTV. There were shocking shows on HBO when HBO (and cable TV) were fairly new. But the shocking stuff was shown after prime time, not before.

If you're referring to the 50's, then yeah, there was a stigma about teen pregnancy and babies born out of wedlock and "living in sin." Remember Grease and Stockard Channing's character (can't remember her name at the moment) when she thought she was pregnant. The thing with the stigma was that the stigma itself was a deterrent, and so it was not such a bad thing to have a stigma associated with it. Kids knew exactly what would happen if you slept around, and they knew their parents would go ballistic, their friends would go ballistic, and their lives would change if they had a baby. Girls especially had the stigma, though boys got off fairly scot-free. Now, I happen to think (and I'm in good company) that girls are the ones who naturally must say "no" and even civilize society. If there are no stigmas for a girl to sleep around and get pregnant, if she is showered with gifts and attention when it happens, she might mistakenly get the idea, as some girls do, that being pregnant and having a baby means making a new person who will love her unconditionally, no matter what. But a new baby will change her life, no matter what, and her friends and social life will undoubtedly change, her education will suffer, her chances of finding a husband will be reduced, and her dependency on social services like welfare will be greatly increased. So I'm saying that the stigma is a good and natural thing. Parental disapproval is one thing (which is often eventually overcome once the baby arrives, anyway). AIDS, venereal diseases, abortions, and the interruption (or elimination) of the opportunities of a natural childhood are much worse consequences.

I prefer 25 years ago. I even prefer 50 years ago. Give me Hester Prynne with her scarlet A over AIDS, abortion, and unnatural sex in-your-face-everywhere. Do students even read The Scarlet Letter any more? I did 25 years ago.

[Catherine]

magazine covers, and on posters, I question the assumption that misinformation accounts for why teens have sex. This is not directed at anyone, but a general observation-I'm not questioning anyone's own views of their own lives. But...don't people have sex in large part because we have a powerful drive to reproduce? Isn't this drive what has kept humans alive on earth? In and of itself, sex is absolutely necessary-that's why teens throughout history have done it. It's just that in the past, teens were adults-they married, and lived as adults much earlier. Our society asks them to defer adult behaviors longer than is realistic, IMO.

What I think we all hope is that our children will make good choices, avoid hurting themselves and others, and exhibit self-control. I guess I worry when I hear people (again please don't take this personally, it's not meant that way) hoping that their teens will not have premarital sex. Believe me, I want that for my own kids, but I also recognize that humans being what they are, flawed creatures that do wrong and make mistakes, this might not happen. I hope we all can still accept and love them even if they stumble-particularly since so many of us stumbled ourselves! Present company included!

[Jenny in Atl]

The statistic don't support the view that the rate of teen pregnancies is worse now than in the 50's or 80's. There is just more media coverage, so you think it's worse.

The teenage birth rate in United States is the highest in the developed world, and the teenage abortion rate is also high.[3] The U.S. teenage pregnancy rate was at a high in the 1950s and has decreased since then, although there has been an increase in births out of wedlock. [11] The teenage pregnancy rate decreased significantly in the 1990s; this decline manifested across all racial groups, although teenagers of African-American and Hispanic descent retain a higher rate, in comparison to that of European-Americans and Asian-Americans. The Guttmacher Institute attributed about 25% of the decline to abstinence and 75% to the effective use of contraceptives.[12] [13] However, as of 2006 the teenage birth rate began to rise once again for the first time in fourteen years.[14] This could imply that teen pregnancy rates are also on the rise, however the rise could also be due to other sources: a possible decrease in the number of abortions or a decrease in the number of miscarraiges, to name a few. The Canadian teenage birth has also trended towards a steady decline for both younger (15-17) and older (18-19) teens in the period between 1992-2002.[15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_pregnancy




US: Teenage Pregnancy Rate, Birth Rate and Abortion Rate 1972 - 2005
January 30, 2008 at 7:20 am (Statistic, US)
Tags: abortion, Health, Statistic, teenage, US

The trend of US teenage (aged 15 - 19) pregnancy rate, birth rate and abortion rate (per 1000 women aged 15 - 19) for year 1972 to 2005:

Year Birth Rate Abortion Rate Pregnancy Rate
1972 61.7 19.1 95.1
1973 59.3 22.8 96.1
1974 57.5 27.0 98.8
1975 55.6 31.2 101.1
1976 52.8 34.3 101.1
1977 52.8 37.5 104.6
1978 51.5 39.7 105.4
1979 52.3 42.4 109.4
1980 53.2 42.8 111.0
1981 52.2 42.9 109.9
1982 52.4 42.7 109.8
1983 51.4 43.2 109.3
1984 50.6 42.9 107.9
1985 51.0 43.5 109.0
1986 50.2 42.3 106.7
1988 53.0 43.5 111.4
1989 57.3 42.0 114.9
1990 60.3 40.5 116.9
1991 61.8 37.4 115.3
1992 60.3 35.2 111.0
1993 59.0 33.9 108.0
1994 58.2 31.6 104.6
1995 56.0 29.4 99.6
1996 53.5 28.6 95.6
1997 51.3 27.1 91.4
1998 50.3 25.8 88.7
1999 48.8 24.7 85.7
2000 47.7 24.0 83.6
2001 45.3 22.8 79.5
2002 43.0 21.7 75.4
2003 41.6
2004 41.1
2005 40.5
2006 41.9
Or depicted in the graph:


Source:
1. Guttmacher Institute: U.S. Teenage Pregnancy Statistics National and State Trends and Trends by Race and Ethnicity (Table 2.1)
2. US CDC: Recent Trends in Teenage Pregnancy in the United States, 1990-2002

[Carrie1234]

I disagree with this position. Seeing something over and over again desensitizes people. As these teens see ads for contraceptives and abortion, but not abstinence they will begin to forget that abstinence is a viable and the ONLY reliable (beside sterilization) form of birth control.

Only you (the proverbial you) know your children and what information will be helpful to them. My mom, OTH, was WAY off. The things she told me made me MORE curious. That, coupled, with good old fashioned rebellion is why I lost my virginity in high school. I sure wish I would have waited until I was more mature and had more self respect. I would have benefited from posters telling me to wait more than where to get the b/c.

Also, a public health office is just that. That means that younger children will be exposed to these posters. Not every child is ready for the info portrayed in a public space. I would not want to use those public services because I didn't want my children exposed to those posters. That's why I suggested that those posters could be placed in a more appropriate place to help those that need them.

I can really only speak of my own experience. My son was conceived when I was 20 and unmarried.

Having gone through it, and having 10+ years of hindsight, I can say that the media had no influence on my choices. Neither did sex ed.

I was fully aware that abstinence was the only sure way to avoid pregnancy. I knew about (and 99.9% of the time used) contraceptives. I was fully informed of the potential consequences of my actions.

However, I was a young adult straight out of an adolescent psychology book. My brain perceived the risk to be incredibly small when doing its calculations under the influence of hormones.

I do consider myself lucky. My now-ex and I both worked full time, both had health insurance, and I had years of experience with children. My baby was well taken care of.

Had my situation been different, and had my family been even less supportive than they initially were, I may have been grateful for information on ALL potential options. I'm just happy that I didn't feel a need for any of them.

[beansprouts]

Had my situation been different, and had my family been even less supportive than they initially were, I may have been grateful for information on ALL potential options. I'm just happy that I didn't feel a need for any of them.

I do not believe that there is a woman alive who wants to have an abortion. But there are so many things influencing that choice. If the family were supportive, if the boyfriend would stick around, if someone only would step up and tell her that she is a smart and capable woman who can support her baby instead of a broken toy who needs to be fixed so she can play again...

This is where many pro-lifers have failed. They focus on saving babies while condemning their mothers, but they do not realise that the two are a complete package. We need to start by having love and compassion for both before we can save either.

[Laura K (NC)]

is understandable. Infanticide, practiced by thinking animals, is not.

[Martha]

I question the assumption that misinformation accounts for why teens have sex. This is not directed at anyone, but a general observation-I'm not questioning anyone's own views of their own lives. But...don't people have sex in large part because we have a powerful drive to reproduce? Isn't this drive what has kept humans alive on earth? In and of itself, sex is absolutely necessary-that's why teens throughout history have done it. It's just that in the past, teens were adults-they married, and lived as adults much earlier. Our society asks them to defer adult behaviors longer than is realistic, IMO.

On this I half way agree with you.

I agree society is trying to extend adolesence much further than is biologicly normal or even just rational.

Sex is a natural and normal thing. It is my belief God made it to bond a man and woman has husband and wife. It's not the act itself that is wrong, but the wrong use of the act. (outside of a marriage or abusively or otherwise contrary to God's purpose)

However, we aren't just wild rabbits without self control either. There's many things that are normal and natural, but we don't think are okay to do, esp. for teens. The excuse that hormones are just going to make them do it is a poor one. I think they are capable of more maturity than society gives them credit for, but because they are forced into an entitlement to extended adolesence, they act without thought to consequences.

What I think we all hope is that our children will make good choices, avoid hurting themselves and others, and exhibit self-control. I guess I worry when I hear people (again please don't take this personally, it's not meant that way) hoping that their teens will not have premarital sex. Believe me, I want that for my own kids, but I also recognize that humans being what they are, flawed creatures that do wrong and make mistakes, this might not happen. I hope we all can still accept and love them even if they stumble-particularly since so many of us stumbled ourselves! Present company included!

Most certainly! Hating the actions that brought them to where they are is NOT the same as hating the person and it shouldn't be. I'm not sure why you worry when you hear people saying they hope their teens don't have sex though? Esp as you hope the same thing?

I do not believe that there is a woman alive who wants to have an abortion. But there are so many things influencing that choice. If the family were supportive, if the boyfriend would stick around, if someone only would step up and tell her that she is a smart and capable woman who can support her baby instead of a broken toy who needs to be fixed so she can play again...

This is where many pro-lifers have failed. They focus on saving babies while condemning their mothers, but they do not realise that the two are a complete package. We need to start by having love and compassion for both before we can save either.

I'm not sure why you think this of prolifers? I don't know ANY prolifers who fail to understand this. Maybe the occassional nut that gets airtime on tv, but NONE in "real life". Yes, the focus is on saving a life - literally a baby's AND the mother's too. I've never met a prolifer that didn't understand that those mother's need compassion. I can disagree with abortion without thinking that every woman who gets one is pure evil. For the most part, I think they are just ignorant and or very sadly placed in life. For example Catholic Charitities offerrs a place for crisis pregnancy mothers to live, get education, and learn about ways to keep or adopt out their babies. They can stay for up to 2 years after the birth, to save money, finish school, learn how to care for the baby, and have the support of other mothers like themselves and a house mother to help out. If they choose adoption, these services are still available to them afterwards to help them.

However, I will say I know for a fact that some women absolutely do just want an abortion. They just don't want the trouble and inconvience a pregnancy, much less a baby, comes with. They knew exactly what was entailed in an abortion and that a fetus is a baby and they just didn't give a flip. Some went on to get sterilized because the reason they got pregnant was failed birth control. Are all women like that? I hope not, but many are.

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

There were maybe 5 girls pregnant in my high school of about 1000. I remember 4 that were obviously and openly pregnant. One girl was pregnant with her 2nd in her senior year. One other girl was trying to hide her pregnancy and was successful until she gave birth at school. Now that was shocking!

25 years ago there were shows like Saturday Night Live and TV channels like MTV. There were shocking shows on HBO when HBO (and cable TV) were fairly new. But the shocking stuff was shown after prime time, not before.

If you're referring to the 50's, then yeah, there was a stigma about teen pregnancy and babies born out of wedlock and "living in sin." Remember Grease and Stockard Channing's character (can't remember her name at the moment) when she thought she was pregnant. The thing with the stigma was that the stigma itself was a deterrent, and so it was not such a bad thing to have a stigma associated with it. Kids knew exactly what would happen if you slept around, and they knew their parents would go ballistic, their friends would go ballistic, and their lives would change if they had a baby. Girls especially had the stigma, though boys got off fairly scot-free. Now, I happen to think (and I'm in good company) that girls are the ones who naturally must say "no" and even civilize society. If there are no stigmas for a girl to sleep around and get pregnant, if she is showered with gifts and attention when it happens, she might mistakenly get the idea, as some girls do, that being pregnant and having a baby means making a new person who will love her unconditionally, no matter what. But a new baby will change her life, no matter what, and her friends and social life will undoubtedly change, her education will suffer, her chances of finding a husband will be reduced, and her dependency on social services like welfare will be greatly increased. So I'm saying that the stigma is a good and natural thing. Parental disapproval is one thing (which is often eventually overcome once the baby arrives, anyway). AIDS, venereal diseases, abortions, and the interruption (or elimination) of the opportunities of a natural childhood are much worse consequences.

I prefer 25 years ago. I even prefer 50 years ago. Give me Hester Prynne with her scarlet A over AIDS, abortion, and unnatural sex in-your-face-everywhere. Do students even read The Scarlet Letter any more? I did 25 years ago.

:iagree::iagree:

[Martha]

So I'm saying that the stigma is a good and natural thing. Parental disapproval is one thing (which is often eventually overcome once the baby arrives, anyway). AIDS, venereal diseases, abortions, and the interruption (or elimination) of the opportunities of a natural childhood are much worse consequences.

I prefer 25 years ago. I even prefer 50 years ago. Give me Hester Prynne with her scarlet A over AIDS, abortion, and unnatural sex in-your-face-everywhere. Do students even read The Scarlet Letter any more? I did 25 years ago.

Again, I torn in agreement on this.

I once heard a good priest say that the only thing worse than feeling shame was being shameless. I completely agree. For some reason many people these days have no moral sense of shame when they do wrong. That nagging feeling in the pit of one's stomach that keeps them in check is missing for some reason. Or maybe just supressed or maybe they are just told they don't have to feel that way often enough that they believe it. I don't know. I'd rather my kids have a healthy sense of proper shame than to act shamelessly.

BUT that doesn't mean people weren't having sex and babies outside of marriage either or getting STDs and abortions. Greatly reduced because women KNEW they couldn't count on any man that didn't already have a ring on their hand? Yes. But it still happened. Again, I don't think we'll ever eradicate these things. They've been around since the first man and woman. But I do agree society is getting rather shameless and the escalating numbers reflect that.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I disagree with this position. Seeing something over and over again desensitizes people. As these teens see ads for contraceptives and abortion, but not abstinence they will begin to forget that abstinence is a viable and the ONLY reliable (beside sterilization) form of birth control.

Only you (the proverbial you) know your children and what information will be helpful to them. My mom, OTH, was WAY off. The things she told me made me MORE curious. That, coupled, with good old fashioned rebellion is why I lost my virginity in high school. I sure wish I would have waited until I was more mature and had more self respect. I would have benefited from posters telling me to wait more than where to get the b/c.

Also, a public health office is just that. That means that younger children will be exposed to these posters. Not every child is ready for the info portrayed in a public space. I would not want to use those public services because I didn't want my children exposed to those posters. That's why I suggested that those posters could be placed in a more appropriate place to help those that need them.

Well, I WANT my 7 year old (and would have wanted her as a 3 year old and 4 year old) to see those posters, to ask about those posters. I am glad my daughter is growing up in a world where she has choices about her sex life the same way men have for decades.

Sure, abstaining from sex is an option, but it was not the option I wanted as a young adult and it may not be the option my daughter chooses.

[beansprouts]

I'm not sure why you think this of prolifers? I don't know ANY prolifers who fail to understand this.

I think my opinion comes partly from their *ahem* "propaganda" and partly because of the nutcases. There are even some good, normal people who are right in their convictions but have just forgotten about grace. Personally, I think abortion is wrong on many levels and the consequences of a lost life affect more than we can ever comprehend. I have just been hesitant to identify with the "pro-life" movement because of these issues. I do know there are organizations cropping up now that do minister to the Mamas in a compassionate way and I am grateful for them.

FTR Martha, I always enjoy reading your posts :001_smile:

[SusanG]

Well, I WANT my 7 year old (and would have wanted her as a 3 year old and 4 year old) to see those posters, to ask about those posters. I am glad my daughter is growing up in a world where she has choices about her sex life the same way men have for decades.

Sure, abstaining from sex is an option, but it was not the option I wanted as a young adult and it may not be the option my daughter chooses.


ITA. We do some contributions each Christmas through our homeschool group to the local AIDS counseling/testing center, so my kids have been exposed to posters about AIDS, condoms, and other STDs since before they could read - we're the family that brings all the donations in to them each year. We've had brief discussions about them, and about the purpose of the clinic. I don't assume my children will abstain from sex as teens - I know I didn't, and I wouldn't go back and change that fact if I could. I'd rather them go into their teen years fully informed about sex and all its ramifications than with half-truths and admonitions to "just say no" like many other teens end up experiencing. I know the general consensus here is that teen sex and premarital sex is wrong, no matter what - but I think responsible sex as an older teen/young adult is an acceptable course of action.

[genie]

I don't assume my children will abstain from sex as teens - I know I didn't, and I wouldn't go back and change that fact if I could.

I'm living proof that sheltering and teaching abstinence-only doesn't necessarily work. I've spent a lot of time analyzing what it was about my upbringing that led me to rebel so much in my teens years. Were there things my parents could have done differently, or was it just my nature? I truly believe that for my particular personality, a very matter-of-fact attitude about sex would have been the best. Turning it into something naughty, or something you "just don't do", only made ME more curious. I never had any intention of waiting until marriage, and wanted to experience everything possible as soon as possible.

Because I know how I was, I never made any assumptions about my daughter. I've always been very open with any questions she has had, and I let her know that she can talk to me about anything. And she often does. Most recently she was talking about how a friend of hers (who is two years older) wants to have sex before marriage. My daughter was saying how she thinks she wants to wait until marriage. My daughter. The one whose mom talks to her about sex, has never told her she has to wait until marriage for sex, who has never treated sex as anything but a natural thing some people do. She came to this decision completely on her own. It's hers. She owns it. And if she decides to wait, it will not be because it's what she's been told she SHOULD do, but because it's what SHE wants to do. I can't think of any better reason than that.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

ITA. We do some contributions each Christmas through our homeschool group to the local AIDS counseling/testing center, so my kids have been exposed to posters about AIDS, condoms, and other STDs since before they could read - we're the family that brings all the donations in to them each year. We've had brief discussions about them, and about the purpose of the clinic. I don't assume my children will abstain from sex as teens - I know I didn't, and I wouldn't go back and change that fact if I could. I'd rather them go into their teen years fully informed about sex and all its ramifications than with half-truths and admonitions to "just say no" like many other teens end up experiencing. I know the general consensus here is that teen sex and premarital sex is wrong, no matter what - but I think responsible sex as an older teen/young adult is an acceptable course of action.

My husband and I were not yet married when my daughter was conceived. She was not an unplanned pregnancy either. We did get married before she was born, as we had planned.

I am amazed at how many people ask me, "What are you going to tell her?" :confused: Like I need to make up some story or somehow be ashamed of the perfectly rational choices her father and I made.

[dragons in the flower bed]

Most recently she was talking about how a friend of hers (who is two years older) wants to have sex before marriage. My daughter was saying how she thinks she wants to wait until marriage. My daughter. The one whose mom talks to her about sex, has never told her she has to wait until marriage for sex, who has never treated sex as anything but a natural thing some people do.

There's good evidence for this being a reproducible result in the book Harmful to Minors: The Perils of Protecting Children from Sex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmful_to_Minors) by Judith Levine. It compares statistics from abstinence programs with other sex ed programs. Here's (http://dir.salon.com/story/mwt/feature/2002/04/19/levine_talks/index.html) an extensive interview with the author, and there are a couple of reviews here (http://bythebookshelf.blogspot.com/2007/10/harmful-by-minors-by-judith-levine.html) and here (http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20020802-000005.html).

[Laura K (NC)]

Since the Fall we have had disorder, and we will until Jesus comes.

[Jenny in Atl]

Since the Fall we have had disorder, and we will until Jesus comes.


Did you read the statistics I posted on the past page? Rates have fallen since the 50's. Only recently increasing again but still not as high as the 50's.

[Martha]

Well, I WANT my 7 year old (and would have wanted her as a 3 year old and 4 year old) to see those posters, to ask about those posters. I am glad my daughter is growing up in a world where she has choices about her sex life the same way men have for decades.

Sure, abstaining from sex is an option, but it was not the option I wanted as a young adult and it may not be the option my daughter chooses.

See now, I don't get this. If you want to teach your child that, well it's your perogative as their parent, but what's that got to do with the posters and such? Are you saying you wouldn't teach her she has the option of having sex if the posters weren't there? I don't understand why it's okay to push this stuff everywhere. If you want to teach your children different than me about sex, I completely understand and accept that, but what about MY right to teach my kids different and not wanting them to think those things are okay? Why shoudl I have to have to deal with those posters?

I think my opinion comes partly from their *ahem* "propaganda" and partly because of the nutcases. There are even some good, normal people who are right in their convictions but have just forgotten about grace.

hmmm.. okay can we discuss what you think is propaganda then? That implies something dishonest? For example. that graphic abortion billboard pic notes an actual factual result. Abortion isn't pretty. I absolutely agree it shouldn't be on a billboard like that. However, the truth is many women going in for an abortion are not told exactly what it entails and the results are not graphicly and detailed out for them. "It" will be scraped out. "It" is not described as a baby with little arms and fingers being cut out. Oh no, that'd be rude and crass. But it is what is happening. Using nicer words and being careful not to give illustration doesn't change that.

Again, I do NOT agree with such a horrific picture on a billboard. But there does need to be a way to get the entire procedure and what it involves and the results into patient hands so they can make a genuine informed consent. I mean, if I want a c-section, they show me a video about exactly what happens, how it happens and so forth. They do that for most vaginal deliveries too in lamaze classes and so forth. We can watch documentaries about nearly any medical procedure. Why not the same for abortions? Because they KNOW most women wouldn't want an abortion if they knew all the information?

So anyhow. What propaganda? I'm not being snarky - it's a genuine curious question. :) I completely agree some think they have to sink to some hateful depths to get their point across and I disagree with that. And yeah, some folks are just nuts. But nutty folk and propaganda is certainly not restricted to pro-lifers.;)

I don't assume my children will abstain from sex as teens - I know I didn't, and I wouldn't go back and change that fact if I could. I'd rather them go into their teen years fully informed about sex and all its ramifications than with half-truths and admonitions to "just say no" like many other teens end up experiencing. I know the general consensus here is that teen sex and premarital sex is wrong, no matter what - but I think responsible sex as an older teen/young adult is an acceptable course of action.

I don't know anyone that is assuming that? I know I don't. I assume that I need to be very vigilant with my children. I assume that I have to keep sending the same message and keep talking with them about relationships and life. I do think premarital sex is wrong. Not even for religious reasons. I think it's wrong because sex is a bonding event and sex always carries the risk of a pregnancy. I don't want my children to bond on such a level with someone they aren't fully commited to and who might not be fully committed to them. I certainly don't want them risking a pregnancy under those conditions.

Despite all that I'm very much aware that my kids have that dratted free will to make their own choices. ;) Some of those choices are sure to be very stupid ones. But yeah, I'm still going to admonish them to not make those mistakes and make every effort to assist them in adverting making those big errors of judgement that could affect them for the rest of their life. If they do it anyway? Well, I'll love them anyway, but I sure won't encourage them to continue down what I feel is a destructive path.

As for half-truths? Who here has said to give half-truths? I'm very honest with my kids and I don't feel I'm telling them half-truths.:confused:

[Martha]

I truly believe that for my particular personality, a very matter-of-fact attitude about sex would have been the best. Turning it into something naughty, or something you "just don't do", only made ME more curious. I never had any intention of waiting until marriage, and wanted to experience everything possible as soon as possible.

And if she decides to wait, it will not be because it's what she's been told she SHOULD do, but because it's what SHE wants to do. I can't think of any better reason than that.

I really think this is a misunderstanding about people such as myself. It's assumed I'm lying, sheltering, or giving half-truths or telling my kids how evil and sinful sex is. That is absolutely NOT true of myself or any other like-minded person I know.:confused: I've never told my kids sex was anything like that. My kids do know far more about birth control, abortion, and such than I'd like. I've always been honest with them about it. And about why I think it's wrong.

As for the attitude that she should only do what she wants to do - I completely do not understand this attitude. LOTS of things in life should be done because it's what SHOULD be done. Wanting to do it certainly makes it easier when it's what a person should do, but not wanting to do it doesn't make it right to not do it. (Otherwise, I'd never ever wash a toilet or dish again!!;))

Why is telling my kids something is wrong a bad thing? Why is telling my kids what they should do or shouldn't do to make good life choices a bad thing? Why is it portrayed as me turning sex into something dirty or lying to my kids? It's my job as their mother to teach them right from wrong and why those things are the way they are. I don't have to lie to them, tell them half-truths, or turn sex into something nasty to do that.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

See now, I don't get this. If you want to teach your child that, well it's your perogative as their parent, but what's that got to do with the posters and such? Are you saying you wouldn't teach her she has the option of having sex if the posters weren't there? I don't understand why it's okay to push this stuff everywhere. If you want to teach your children different than me about sex, I completely understand and accept that, but what about MY right to teach my kids different and not wanting them to think those things are okay? Why shoudl I have to have to deal with those posters?

Why should I have to "deal with" propaganda from the right wing? Because it is a free country, that's why.

Why can't others just use the posters as a teaching tool if a child sees them? We drove by a pro-life demonstration once and that was a great teaching experience for my daughter. I didn't blame the protesters for teaching my daughter that harassing women coming to a clinic (my opinion) was okay. Are you not secure enough in what you teach your children to the point a poster is going to undermine that? It's not like someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to put a condom on your son. It's just a poster.

You have the right to teach your children anything you want. You have the right to stay inside your home so that you or your children never have to see or hear anything that differs from your views. However, when you are out in the world, one must accept a variety of viewpoints and opinions- some of which we will not agree with.

[genie]

I really think this is a misunderstanding about people such as myself. It's assumed I'm lying, sheltering, or giving half-truths or telling my kids how evil and sinful sex is. That is absolutely NOT true of myself or any other like-minded person I know.:confused: I've never told my kids sex was anything like that. My kids do know far more about birth control, abortion, and such than I'd like. I've always been honest with them about it. And about why I think it's wrong.

I was speaking about my personal experience of how I was raised, in addition to how I watched my friends being raised, and additionally how I've watched some of my friends raise their children. I've seen it enough times to have a pretty accurate understanding of the situation I'm discussing. I don't think I ever implied that you or anyone here was doing the same.

As for the attitude that she should only do what she wants to do - I completely do not understand this attitude. LOTS of things in life should be done because it's what SHOULD be done. Wanting to do it certainly makes it easier when it's what a person should do, but not wanting to do it doesn't make it right to not do it. (Otherwise, I'd never ever wash a toilet or dish again!!;))

That's not what I was saying, at all. I never said, nor do I think I implied she "should only" do what she wants to do. My point is that the best kind of motivation is self-motivation. I don't disagree with what you've said above, it's just not reflective of the point I was trying to make.

Why is telling my kids something is wrong a bad thing? Why is telling my kids what they should do or shouldn't do to make good life choices a bad thing? Why is it portrayed as me turning sex into something dirty or lying to my kids? It's my job as their mother to teach them right from wrong and why those things are the way they are. I don't have to lie to them, tell them half-truths, or turn sex into something nasty to do that.

Again, you're personalizing my post way too much here. I was telling of my experience, not making implications about yours.

[Martha]

Why should I have to "deal with" propaganda from the right wing? Because it is a free country, that's why.

hmm, I have no problem with that to some extent. However, in a state run health dept, it's MY tax dollars that contribute to that poster. And if it was really about freedom, there'd be a poster right next to it saying birth control is considered wrong by some people for blank reasons. But there NEVER is. I've been in state health depts over the years and I've never once seen NFP promoted on a poster or seen them allow a segment of society put up a poster promoting the negatives of birth control.

Freedom of press on signs and freedom to protest on sidewalks? yep, I agree everyone is entitled to an opinion however much I disagree with them.

But that's not the case with a health dept poster. That's not individuals or private entities advertising something or a stance. That's the gov't. And I shouldn't have to pay for that or deal with it in gov't building anymore than you'd appreciate paying for a gov't poster in a gov't building promoting my POV.

Why can't others just use the posters as a teaching tool if a child sees them?

Again who says we aren't doing that? I do. Others have said they do. The point was that they shouldn't have to in public gov't building.

Are you not secure enough in what you teach your children to the point a poster is going to undermine that? It's not like someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to put a condom on your son. It's just a poster.

Nope. Just advertising to him that any time he wants to ditch everything I've taught him and head to the local clinic, the society and gov't will not only promote and encourage him to do so, they'll freaking pay for it and never let his parents find out.

And yes, I think that undermines a LOT of parents and sends a very negative message to kids.

when you are out in the world, one must accept a variety of viewpoints and opinions- some of which we will not agree with.

True to some extent. Trust me, I'm well aware that practicing catholic homeschoolers raising 8+ kids are in minority.;)

My issue is that it's gov't approved and in a public building (the health dept) and the opposing view in not given equal space and discussion. I wonder how many women ever hear that it's okay to not use birth control, pregnancy will not ruin their life, it's okay to have the baby? I'm betting few and far between. Maybe if they were genuinely given ALL options/perspectives, those other women wouldn't feel the need to stand on sidewalk to get the message out? I know I sure never heard it when I was on state assistance. And I was married to a good man and had 2 kids. God only knows what kind of pressure is put on some ignorant teenager!

[Martha]

I don't think I ever implied that you or anyone here was doing the same.

That's not what I was saying, at all. I never said, nor do I think I implied she "should only" do what she wants to do. My point is that the best kind of motivation is self-motivation. I don't disagree with what you've said above, it's just not reflective of the point I was trying to make.


No, I know you didn't mean me personally. I asked because these are things I hear a LOT from the opposing view and I honestly don't get it because I don't think I do any such things and I don't know many who do. A few, but not most. Some are more because they are "city folk" than anything. LOL I did have one hs-er leave my home because she was horrified that dogs were um going at it and didn't want her kids exposed to sex.:confused: I also had one gasp at me for letting my kids watch a documentary about penguins because it showed the mating.:lol: Whatever.

I agree about self-motivation although I don't agree with your POV on sex being okay for the unmarried.:) I guess, like you, I've met some extreme "I'll never make my kid to anything they don't want" folks and based my question on that. And yes, some of them have teens that would :svengo:if they ever had to clean a toilet or do a load of dishes.;)

[genie]

I agree about self-motivation although I don't agree with your POV on sex being okay for the unmarried.

I didn't say that was my POV. ;)

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

hmm, I have no problem with that to some extent. However, in a state run health dept, it's MY tax dollars that contribute to that poster. And if it was really about freedom, there'd be a poster right next to it saying birth control is considered wrong by some people for blank reasons. But there NEVER is. I've been in state health depts over the years and I've never once seen NFP promoted on a poster or seen them allow a segment of society put up a poster promoting the negatives of birth control.

Freedom of press on signs and freedom to protest on sidewalks? yep, I agree everyone is entitled to an opinion however much I disagree with them.

But that's not the case with a health dept poster. That's not individuals or private entities advertising something or a stance. That's the gov't. And I shouldn't have to pay for that or deal with it in gov't building anymore than you'd appreciate paying for a gov't poster in a gov't building promoting my POV.

Ahhh- don't assume what I would think of a poster that was pro-abstinence or promoted adoption or parenthood being in the health clinic. I'm all for it.

My tax dollars pay for that stuff too. Have you ever ASKED about putting up a different kind of poster? Have you gone to your local representatives to talk about putting up an alternative poster?

Where I disagree with you is in putting up a poster that says some people believe this is wrong for x reasons. A health department is not a church or a place to otherwise proselytize. A poster that provides information or portrays abstinence or adoption in a positive light, I'm all for it. A list of why SOME people believe birth control is wrong does not belong in a health dept. There are other places people can go for that kind of information.

Nope. Just advertising to him that any time he wants to ditch everything I've taught him and head to the local clinic, the society and gov't will not only promote and encourage him to do so, they'll freaking pay for it and never let his parents find out.

And yes, I think that undermines a LOT of parents and sends a very negative message to kids.A negative message in your opinion. And there is nothing that can prevent any child from ditching the values of their parents. We are raising human beings with unique personalities, opinions, and goals.

My issue is that it's gov't approved and in a public building (the health dept) and the opposing view in not given equal space and discussion. I wonder how many women ever hear that it's okay to not use birth control, pregnancy will not ruin their life, it's okay to have the baby? I'm betting few and far between. Maybe if they were genuinely given ALL options/perspectives, those other women wouldn't feel the need to stand on sidewalk to get the message out? I know I sure never heard it when I was on state assistance. And I was married to a good man and had 2 kids. God only knows what kind of pressure is put on some ignorant teenager!If I were to go to my local phone book yellow pages right now, there are two sections for pregnancy counseling that are clearly labeled. One section is for agencies that do not and will not provide information about abortion. The other is for places that provide abortions or will provide information about obtaining one. Women have a choice as to which agency they would like to call. From what I know, a great many women visit both types before making their own personal decision based on the information presented.

[Martha]

I didn't say that was my POV. ;)

oops. my bad. my apologies:blush:

Ahhh- don't assume what I would think of a poster that was pro-abstinence or promoted adoption or parenthood being in the health clinic. I'm all for it.

My tax dollars pay for that stuff too. Have you ever ASKED about putting up a different kind of poster? Have you gone to your local representatives to talk about putting up an alternative poster?

They won't have any of it. It's not approved or funded social health practices.

Where I disagree with you is in putting up a poster that says some people believe this is wrong for x reasons. A health department is not a church or a place to otherwise proselytize. A poster that provides information or portrays abstinence or adoption in a positive light, I'm all for it. A list of why SOME people believe birth control is wrong does not belong in a health dept. There are other places people can go for that kind of information.

Okay then. By the same note they shouldn't be allowed to say or portray teen pregnancy as wrong? I agree a health dept is not the place to proselytize, but they most certainly do have their own agenda and they absolutely do push it.

A negative message in your opinion. And there is nothing that can prevent any child from ditching the values of their parents. We are raising human beings with unique personalities, opinions, and goals.

Sure we are. But I'm not advocating that your kids never have to tell you about what they are doing or telling them I'll pay for them to do what they want behind your back either. BIG difference.

If I were to go to my local phone book yellow pages right now, there are two sections for pregnancy counseling that are clearly labeled. One section is for agencies that do not and will not provide information about abortion. The other is for places that provide abortions or will provide information about obtaining one. Women have a choice as to which agency they would like to call. From what I know, a great many women visit both types before making their own personal decision based on the information presented.

One: many women do not get those options because if they are poor and on state asssitance, they are sent to state agencies - health dept or planned parenthood.


Two: Grown women are seperate from young dumb teens, in my mind, or they should be.

Not once did my public highschool EVER say that we had the option of going to blank organizations. Nope. There was the state clinic or planned parenthood. And they were/are heavily promoted and encouraged and easy. Teens and women who enter those facilities are told they are being given all their options when they might not be (for example if a girl doesn't want an abortion, they don't give her a list of charitiable organizations that will help her). They are told it is free and easy and gov't sanctioned and no one ever has to know. Teens are not known for shopping around for clothes, do you really think they are going to shop from clinic to clinic in the yellow pages when told they can just go to blank for one stop hasslel free bargain shopping services? These are minors and they aren't ready to be making medical decisions without parental guidance, esp decisions that could affect the rest of their lives.

This is the problem. The gov't has no business in any capacity telling my kids or your kids about sex and birth control options. (basic human biology is fine - a crash course in medical ethics and family planning is not part of that, imo) That's what parents are supposed to do and should be forced to step up and do.

If my kid wants to have sex, I can't stop them and I know that same as you do. But I sure as heck shouldn't have to wonder if some yahoo at a state clinic (or lack of planned parenthood) who doesn't know my kid is condoning and permitting them to go against what I've raised them to do and making it easy for them to choose to do what I have taught them is wrong.

Meeting people of different opinions and cultures and such does not bother me in the least. Enjoy it even.

People telling my kids they will provide medical procedures or prescriptions if they want it to deal with having sex - people telling my kids they'll keep such things secret from me so my kids can have sex behind my back - peopel thinking they know more about what is best and right for my kids than I do - my gov't paying those people to do that - those are things I have no respect for and think are wrong.

I would NEVER do that to you or your kid, even though I might strongly disagree with your opinion on those matters, they are YOUR kids. Not mine. Not the states.

[Carrie1234]

I have a question. Do state clinics generally advertise their services or otherwise make their availability known?

I mean, I found myself without health insurance just before I married my husband. I had a gynecological issue I needed to address (that whole 6-month pap thing.) I knew (and still know) nothing about state clinics. I *did* know that I could go get a pap at Planned Parenthood, and so I did.

My impression (based on almost nothing) was that you had to be on public assistance to use a government clinic. I don't think I would have been approved and, from what I hear, it's a long process.

Just wondering.

[beansprouts]

Deleted - need more time to think this response through so it makes sense. I'll try again later ;-)

[Peek a Boo]

since abortion is a hot topic at my house, my guys have a pretty detailed working knowledge about sex and pregnancy. The poster in question doesn't bother me too much --I'd likely use it to launch into a moderately loud discussion about premarital sex and sexual irresponsibility. For as long as I was stuck waiting. but then again, i believe that even teens can be taught to control their actions --they aren't stupid.

i do agree that knowledge is imperative. I just find it ironic that witholding/denying what every credible human embryology textbook says about the beginnings of a human life is considered "knowledgeable."

and i absolutely agree that aborted fetuses are difficult to explain.

I just figgered I'd clarify for those who assume quite a bit that I would absolutely be happy to wait my turn and continue talking about the poster until it was rightfully my turn in line. I don't recall saying anything about forcing them to take me over another patron, but since I know the wait can be long sometimes, I wouldn't mind the long opportunity to explore the manymanymany different issues a poster like this could bring up.

:D

martha did mention one [of several] things that is a big issue for me too:

"But I'm not advocating that your kids never have to tell you about what they are doing or telling them I'll pay for them to do what they want behind your back either. BIG difference."

i do agree that as far as a health dept is concerned, opinions should be left off the wall. But i never see too much about side effects and other facts either. So yeah, I gotta agree w/ Martha [again] that much of the agenda we see is in what is NOT shared at the forefront.

[Cheryl in NM]

But...don't people have sex in large part because we have a powerful drive to reproduce? Isn't this drive what has kept humans alive on earth? In and of itself, sex is absolutely necessary-that's why teens throughout history have done it. It's just that in the past, teens were adults-they married, and lived as adults much earlier. Our society asks them to defer adult behaviors longer than is realistic, IMO.

Of course we have a drive to reproduce. Of course, historically, teenagers were having families. But nowadays our teenagers are starting their periods at 12 and 13 whereas a hundred years ago they started aroudn 16. That's a huge difference!

I can really only speak of my own experience. My son was conceived when I was 20 and unmarried.

While a appreciate your experience and position most of us on this thread are discussing the effects of a sexualized media on young children and teenagers. At 20 you know the facts of life and you know your choices.

Sex is a natural and normal thing. It is my belief God made it to bond a man and woman has husband and wife. It's not the act itself that is wrong, but the wrong use of the act. (outside of a marriage or abusively or otherwise contrary to God's purpose)

However, we aren't just wild rabbits without self control either. There's many things that are normal and natural, but we don't think are okay to do, esp. for teens. The excuse that hormones are just going to make them do it is a poor one. I think they are capable of more maturity than society gives them credit for, but because they are forced into an entitlement to extended adolesence, they act without thought to consequences.

YAY!!!!:iagree: Totally!

Again, I torn in agreement on this.

I once heard a good priest say that the only thing worse than feeling shame was being shameless. I completely agree. For some reason many people these days have no moral sense of shame when they do wrong. That nagging feeling in the pit of one's stomach that keeps them in check is missing for some reason. Or maybe just supressed or maybe they are just told they don't have to feel that way often enough that they believe it. I don't know. I'd rather my kids have a healthy sense of proper shame than to act shamelessly.

We are teaching ds to listen to that feeling in the pit of his stomach. We tried to teach the olders, but it didn't get through. That's what's wrong with society today. People are all about what they want instead of what they need to do. Adults are taking all the perks of being an adult, but not the responsibility. These adults are role models and the poor kids coming up don't have a chance. It makes me very sad.

Well, I WANT my 7 year old (and would have wanted her as a 3 year old and 4 year old) to see those posters, to ask about those posters. I am glad my daughter is growing up in a world where she has choices about her sex life the same way men have for decades. .
I believe this is completely irresponsible. A 3 and 4 year old do not need to know what abortion is. I can't imagine that swimming around in that young brain. How awful! Young girls should be taught to respect themselves. Always talking about sex and options for getting rid of a baby just teaches them to focus on sex and presents pre-marital sex as "the" way to go.

ITA. We do some contributions each Christmas through our homeschool group to the local AIDS counseling/testing center, so my kids have been exposed to posters about AIDS, condoms, and other STDs since before they could read - we're the family that brings all the donations in to them each year. We've had brief discussions about them, and about the purpose of the clinic. I don't assume my children will abstain from sex as teens - I know I didn't, and I wouldn't go back and change that fact if I could. I'd rather them go into their teen years fully informed about sex and all its ramifications than with half-truths and admonitions to "just say no" like many other teens end up experiencing. I know the general consensus here is that teen sex and premarital sex is wrong, no matter what - but I think responsible sex as an older teen/young adult is an acceptable course of action.
Again, I really think it's highly inappropriate to discuss STD's with young children. They will have their whole lives to learn about all the nastiness in the world and all the ways humans have invented to hurt each other. I'm a firm believer in letting a child's innocence alone.

I'm living proof that sheltering and teaching abstinence-only doesn't necessarily work. I've spent a lot of time analyzing what it was about my upbringing that led me to rebel so much in my teens years. Were there things my parents could have done differently, or was it just my nature? I truly believe that for my particular personality, a very matter-of-fact attitude about sex would have been the best. Turning it into something naughty, or something you "just don't do", only made ME more curious. I never had any intention of waiting until marriage, and wanted to experience everything possible as soon as possible.[\quote]

I too was very sheltered and did not chose to wait for adulthood much less marriage. I'm not saying we should shelter our children. I'm saying there is an age appropriate way to discuss things with them. I'm also say that I believe pre-marital sex in wrong and that's what I teach my son. We all pass our beliefs and morals on to our children. So I guess that makes us all skewed in some way.

[quote=Academy of Jedi Arts;489383]My husband and I were not yet married when my daughter was conceived. She was not an unplanned pregnancy either. We did get married before she was born, as we had planned.

I am amazed at how many people ask me, "What are you going to tell her?" :confused: Like I need to make up some story or somehow be ashamed of the perfectly rational choices her father and I made.

I was pregnant at my wedding. Ds has always known that he was in my tummy at my wedding. As he got older we explained that we believe we should have waited until we were married. We make sure he understands that we love him very much and would definitely have had him. We just wish we would have been married sooner.

Why should I have to "deal with" propaganda from the right wing? Because it is a free country, that's why.

Why can't others just use the posters as a teaching tool if a child sees them? We drove by a pro-life demonstration once and that was a great teaching experience for my daughter. I didn't blame the protesters for teaching my daughter that harassing women coming to a clinic (my opinion) was okay. Are you not secure enough in what you teach your children to the point a poster is going to undermine that? It's not like someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to put a condom on your son. It's just a poster.

You have the right to teach your children anything you want. You have the right to stay inside your home so that you or your children never have to see or hear anything that differs from your views. However, when you are out in the world, one must accept a variety of viewpoints and opinions- some of which we will not agree with.

I agree that seeing things we disagree with while our children are with us are learning opportunities. But I don't believe these things should be government sanctioned. I'm an secure in what I teach my son, but he is at an impressionable age. Sometimes that's hard to work against.

Ahhh- don't assume what I would think of a poster that was pro-abstinence or promoted adoption or parenthood being in the health clinic. I'm all for it.

My tax dollars pay for that stuff too. Have you ever ASKED about putting up a different kind of poster? Have you gone to your local representatives to talk about putting up an alternative poster?

How about a poster of beautiful clouds with the light of heaven and God's hands reaching out and the words, "this could be yours if you wait until marriage". That's positive.

[Michele B]

I guess for those who think an 8 year old needs to know what to do "if the condom breaks," or the best way to treat herpes, feel free to have that discussion with your own kid. Don't make me have it with mine by placing inappropriate ads in inappropriate places.

.

Absolutely!!

I get really sick of being told how to parent by advertisements!!! I would love to see some stats on how effective those things are. Do people who just don't get parenting really drive by and see that and say "wow now I want to be a responsible parent?" I dislike commercials that tell me when to talk to my kids. I have parents who tell me how to parent constantly. It seems thre are other venues for parenting advice. I don't want to see people talk about herpes or rub their bottoms all over a chair becuase of hemmaroids, which I cannot spell, and do not get me started on on the men singing about getting home to their women so their viagra can work (quit singing the stupid song and get home already then) and that thing about an erection lasting more than four hours? I don't think that everything, whether it is true, important or whatever belongs in the public sphere. Yes kids need to know about sex. But do it in an afterschool program, do it at church - not on a billboard.

It takes away my parental right to discuss things when my child is ready in my own way!!!! I'm sorry there are places where 13-year olds push buggies - I know this is true - my husband is an attorney in a place where alot of those girls are carrying daddy's baby! A billboard will not fix that! That needs mentorship. And the strong arm of the law.



Michele

[Michele B]

"How about a poster of beautiful clouds with the light of heaven and God's hands reaching out and the words, "this could be yours if you wait until marriage". That's positive."

Umm.. that's not what the Christian faith teaches. People who did not wait, but receive forgiveness and purpose to lead a new life etc, have every hope of heaven.

That's the problem with short and pithy advertisements, they create a false idea and do more harm than good. The above statement leaves forgiveness and grace out of the Christian equation. Speaking as someone who did not wait ;)


Michele

[Cheryl in NM]

"How about a poster of beautiful clouds with the light of heaven and God's hands reaching out and the words, "this could be yours if you wait until marriage". That's positive."

Umm.. that's not what the Christian faith teaches. People who did not wait, but receive forgiveness and purpose to lead a new life etc, have every hope of heaven.

That's the problem with short and pithy advertisements, they create a false idea and do more harm than good. The above statement leaves forgiveness and grace out of the Christian equation. Speaking as someone who did not wait ;)


Michele

You're right, short and pithy leave out important details. Just like the b/c, e/c, and abortion posters do. That's the problem with using posters to educate kids about sex; they can't get the whole story. Kids aren't always going to ask questions about the posters they see. Their parents might not always see the posters to be able to start a dialogue with their kids.

[Michele B]

You're right, short and pithy leave out important details. Just like the b/c, e/c, and abortion posters do. That's the problem with using posters to educate kids about sex; they can't get the whole story. Kids aren't always going to ask questions about the posters they see. Their parents might not always see the posters to be able to start a dialogue with their kids.

Excellent!

Michele

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I believe this is completely irresponsible. A 3 and 4 year old do not need to know what abortion is. I can't imagine that swimming around in that young brain. How awful! Young girls should be taught to respect themselves. Always talking about sex and options for getting rid of a baby just teaches them to focus on sex and presents pre-marital sex as "the" way to go.

This is your opinion, and I respect it, but since my daughter was able to read the Constitution at 4 years old, I have talked to her about women's rights, which includes Roe Vs. Wade and a woman's right to choose.

My daughter respects herself very much, and has very high self esteem. Trust, me- no boy or girl is going to get my daughter to do anything she does not want to do.

I do not view pre-marital sex as wrong. I think it is perfectly fine to test drive a model before you buy it. If not for pre-marital sex, my beautiful daughter would not be here- and NO she was NOT unplanned and I do not tell her that I wish I had married sooner because that is a lie.

I tell my daughter that she doesn't even have to have a man in her life if she wants to have a child, as long as she is prepared to raise and love that child (education, career, home established, etc). She knows successful single by choice moms, and I am glad these women can serve as positive role models for her.

I am glad that my tax dollars are going to educate teens about sex. Considering that my daughter's middle school friends are being exposed to oral sex, I think it is wise these kids learn that even oral sex is something you don't want to be doing without the fez on.

[Cheryl in NM]

This is your opinion, and I respect it, but since my daughter was able to read the Constitution at 4 years old, I have talked to her about women's rights, which includes Roe Vs. Wade and a woman's right to choose.

My daughter respects herself very much, and has very high self esteem. Trust, me- no boy or girl is going to get my daughter to do anything she does not want to do.

I do not view pre-marital sex as wrong. I think it is perfectly fine to test drive a model before you buy it. If not for pre-marital sex, my beautiful daughter would not be here- and NO she was NOT unplanned and I do not tell her that I wish I had married sooner because that is a lie.

I tell my daughter that she doesn't even have to have a man in her life if she wants to have a child, as long as she is prepared to raise and love that child (education, career, home established, etc). She knows successful single by choice moms, and I am glad these women can serve as positive role models for her.

I am glad that my tax dollars are going to educate teens about sex. Considering that my daughter's middle school friends are being exposed to oral sex, I think it is wise these kids learn that even oral sex is something you don't want to be doing without the fez on.

Just one thought here. Just because a child can read the Consitution (and VERY commendable for a 4 year old!) doesn't mean that she is ready to mentally and emotionally process what abortion actually is. That being said, you know your child best and you do what is best for her by your standards. Obviously, mine are different. I'm sincerely not trying to place myself above you, please don't take this to mean that. If it sounds like that it's just because I don't have the proper words to express myself.

That being said I think we just need to agree to disagree. I respect the fact that you have kept your cool in this dialogue; that's difficult when the POVs are so different. Thanks for sharing your opinions, but I have to respectfully disagree with you and I'll leave it at that.

[Martha]

I do not view pre-marital sex as wrong. I think it is perfectly fine to test drive a model before you buy it. [/qoute]

hmm. I don't even like that description "test drive a model" might apply to a material object being purchased. I don't consider any of my children to be on par with even the most expensive of cars. Far above such and worth a heck of a lot more than to be test driven like to floor display and discarded for a newer model or just a more comfortable ride.

All heck would brake loose if someone dating my kid said that about their relationship. Dh would totally spaz on the poor soul. *I* would be more hurt, sad, and worried that after all my efforts to teach my kids they deserve more and better than that - that such an attitude was the best they could want for themselves.

I say this as someone who didn't wait (wish I had), but whose dh did wait for her (altho not until the wedding night) and neither of us EVER viewed sex or relationships like that. :confused: And no dh and I weren't that way because of religious beliefs either. Neither of us were religious then or came from religious families. Dh still isn't religious. (Well he said he adores me this morning - does that count?;))

[quote]I am glad that my tax dollars are going to educate teens about sex. Considering that my daughter's middle school friends are being exposed to oral sex, I think it is wise these kids learn that even oral sex is something you don't want to be doing without the fez on.

Aside from just having to respectfully agree to disagree with your POV on sex, which I can do because that's why you are the parent of your kids and I have my own to parent....:)

That underlined section is the heart of the real disagreement onthis thread, imo.

I do not think my tax dollars should go towards something I feel parents should teach their own kids. I do not think it is my place or the gov't's place or your place to decide that they know more about what is wise to teach my kids or someone else's kids about sex and at least indirectly about sexual relationships than their parents - and yes that includes parents who might not teach it at all. The gov't and other parents need to mind their own bloomin' business and they sure shouldn't get my money for overstepping into my parenting.

Call me nuts but I don't trust the gov't or other parents to decide what is supposedly wise for my kids or my neighbors kids either for that matter.:glare:

Given our very different perspectives on sexual relationships, surely you can understand that? I mean, would you want your tax dollars going for what I think is wise for children to learn about sex and sexual relations? I'm thinking probably not?:)

[Jenny in Atl]

[quote=Academy of Jedi Arts;492012]

I do not think my tax dollars should go towards something I feel parents should teach their own kids. I do not think it is my place or the gov't's place or your place to decide that they know more about what is wise to teach my kids or someone else's kids about sex and at least indirectly about sexual relationships than their parents - and yes that includes parents who might not teach it at all. The gov't and other parents need to mind their own bloomin' business and they sure shouldn't get my money for overstepping into my parenting.

Call me nuts but I don't trust the gov't or other parents to decide what is supposedly wise for my kids or my neighbors kids either for that matter.:glare:

Given our very different perspectives on sexual relationships, surely you can understand that? I mean, would you want your tax dollars going for what I think is wise for children to learn about sex and sexual relations? I'm thinking probably not?:)
:iagree:

On this we can agree... I disagreed with the OP that the poster was almost phonographic. But, I do agree government is too involved in many areas of our lives which I feel it has no place. While I'm pro-choice, I'd rather private charities help fund them for mothers who can't afford them. Instead of posting a big ad about birth control, maybe there could be flyers available to those who choose to learn about their options. So many don't take care of themselves, because we have instilled the idea that others will. This can be said for both those of faith and w/o.

[Cheryl in NM]

[quote=Martha;492151]
:iagree:

On this we can agree... I disagreed with the OP that the poster was almost phonographic. But, I do agree government is too involved in many areas of our lives which I feel it has no place. While I'm pro-choice, I'd rather private charities help fund them for mothers who can't afford them. Instead of posting a big ad about birth control, maybe there could be flyers available to those who choose to learn about their options. So many don't take care of themselves, because we have instilled the idea that others will. This can be said for both those of faith and w/o.

I totaly agree with this also.

YAY! Some of us found something to agree on!:001_smile:

[Martha]

Sorry my snarkiness did not appeal to your sense of humor.

Honestly did not think you were being snarky, but rather serious.
My mistake?
I have family and have met others that have just that attitude and they are not being snarky about it at all. Sex is a commodity to them not much more evolved than car shopping. They think my notion of bonding with another to be ignorant and unsophisticated. They are not joking or being sarcastic when they use that exact phrase you used.

I am all for abstinence and adoption and all the other things being presented as options. However, I think that actual EDUCATION needs funding, and by education I mean teaching kids what AIDS and STDs are and how to prevent them- which includes birth control and abstainance. As much as I would like all kids to wait to 18 to experiment with sex, REALITY dictates that is NOT going to happen.

Again, not one person here is arguing that kids have free will and might, maybe even probably, choose to have sex.

I'm not saying girls shouldn't know what a pe**s is or that boys shouldn't know what a uterus is. That's basic biology. No problem.

Primary and even most secondary education usually doesn't include medical ethics/decisions and sexual relationships and disease specific prevention/treatment. It certain never suggests that students can seek such care without the permission and knowledge of their parents. I see absolutely no reason why birth control and sex should be exempted from those policies.

Education should no more include birth control options and sex and providers than it includes various methods of cancer treatments and heart surgeries - those are individual MEDICAL choices that are best educated from a medical professional with the support and care of family members. I feel the same way about sex ed.

As for birth control preventing AIDs and STDs - oh man NOT going there. THAT is one huge other debate.:leaving::D