Religious question (NOT a debate!!) [Archive] - The Well-Trained Mind Forums (aka Hive Mind)

OnTheBrink

02-07-2008, 10:52 AM

I'm going to preface this, so people know exactly where I'm going and what my intention is for asking, because I am not trying to stir the pot, or make anyone feel defensive or judged. I'm genuinely curious about this and have pondered it myself and can't really come up with a reason, so I'm going to ask here, and hope that those who respond will be assured there's no hidden agenda in my question. And, obviously, no one is required to answer if they feel this is too personal. :)

Ok, here it is: I've seen people post here (and in other places) that they used to be Christians, but aren't because of other Christians--what they've done or said or their political leanings. My question is, Why? Is there more to it than that? Because, in my head and heart, no one can make me change my beliefs because of their behavior, so it befuddles me when I see that happen. Again, I'm NOT chastising or judging, I'm just trying to understand. For me, it's like sewing. I like to sew, but I know some other sew-ers who are just jerks. Stuck up, snobs, show-offs, but I'd never quit sewing because of them. I guess it's the same with homeschoolers. I know some great ones and some who should just put their kids in school and slowly back away, but I'd not give up homeschooling because of them. I don't even know if these analogies are accurate, so I thought instead of assuming, I'd just ask and hope for the best. LOL

*nervously wringing hands, hoping no one thinks I'm going to thump them with my Bible*

saw

02-07-2008, 11:09 AM

the type of behaviour that is "objectionable" is done in the name of Christianity? And the response is then to wish to distance oneself from that "label"? Just thinking outloud (or should that be online? on keyboard?), not trying to pick a fight.

Amy in MS

02-07-2008, 11:14 AM

Good mornin'!
For me, I understand your hesitation in posting, but I'm glad you did.

That said. I'm a Christian, but a much different one than I was a couple of years ago. In fact, if the Me-of-5-years ago could see the Me-of-today, I probably would say the Today-Me wasn't a Christian. But I am.

I don't have a lot of time to post right now, but I'll draft something up later.

My shift comes from many things, and none of it is personal. It's been a complete schematic shift. It's political. It's intellectual. It's just "where I'm at".

Let me tell you what has changed, and letter I'll tell you why.

I used to: (things that have changed)
Be a Young-Earth Creationist
Believe that Christians had a monopoly on spiritual truth.
Believe that people who weren't Christians had a spiritual "disability" for lack of better words.
Take every single word of the Bible literally.
Be absolutely convinced that people who weren't Christians were going to Hell.

I still:
Believe that Jesus is God's Son and died for me.
Go to church every Sunday with my family, and have my children in Awanas and pray, sing hymns and study Bible with them in the morning before homeschooling.
Wear a headcovering and dresses (!)
Have Jesus as my perfect role-model.

Maybe people who have never been Christians will look at this list and wonder where the big shift happened, and if it really could have been all that big.

Well, it was!

More later,

Amy

Sue G in PA

02-07-2008, 11:15 AM

I've heard the same comments from numerous people (many dear friends of mine IRL as well as on the board) and it grieves me. And, it scares me b/c I know that I am soooo not the perfect Christian. I say things, do things, think things that are so completely opposite of what a Christian "should" say/do/think that I worry about my witness. I love the bumper sticker that says, "I'm not perfect, just saved". Jesus is the only one who led that perfect life and we are simply to try our best to be like Him. But, we are ALL sinners saved by grace. None are righteous, says the Bible. For people who are looking to us as an example of what Christianity is all about...it can be rather difficult b/c no one will be perfect as Jesus was. Just as some people now look at ALL Muslims in a negative light b/c of 9/11 some look at Christians through that negative lens b/c of of 1 Christian they knew who didn't act accordingly, KWIM? I guess the one thing that I, as a Christian, want my non-Christian friends to know is that I'm no different from them. I am a sinner. I make mistakes (many mistakes). I'm not perfect. I'm going to continue to mess up and say dumb things, preach when I should just shut up, hurt feelings, act holier than though when all I really want to do is show them the way to Christ, etc. I want them to know that *I* am not Christianity. Jesus Christ IS Christianity. What makes me different? I've accepted His free gift of salvation offered to all. I'm saved b/c I simply said, "Yes, Jesus, I believe in You, what you did for Me. Wash me clean, forgive my sins. Be a part of my life." No preaching. No Bible thumping. Just wanted to say that I do understand why some turn away b/c of other people and I just keep praying that my walk and my witness don't turn them away b/c that would just devastate me. I'm so broken only JESUS can put me back together!

OnTheBrink

02-07-2008, 11:15 AM

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

02-07-2008, 11:16 AM

I've found that in my post-Christian circles, people who left Christianity because of other Christians seem to need some excuse or another to justify their departure, and that one makes as much sense to them as any. It seems easier for them to spout and be bitter about others' shortcomings and their role in the unbeliever's departure from either faith or organization than to simply say, "You know, I just don't believe that anymore." It's certainly more socially acceptable. People do not believe me when I say that. They assume I must have been in the wrong church, that I wasn't a "real" Christian, or that someone deeply offended me or led me astray. And If Only I could find the right path and stop looking at the failings of other Christians (because, you know, they're only-human-and-you-need-to-fix-your-eyes-on-Jesus-not-people), all would be clear.

Blaming someone else is always easier than figuring out the truth or illogic of it for yourself. A shorter cut from point A to point B.

Personally, I miss being aligned with other Christians. They were my tribe. I don't have a tribe anymore. And it's lonely. I haven't one good clue as to how someone finds a network of IRL friends outside a church. It perplexes me how to navigate society.

Kelli in TN

02-07-2008, 11:25 AM

I don't know how to answer your question, but I do know that it scares me enough to make me watch myself. I am very, very concerned about whether or not I am an embarrassment to the Kingdom. I am grieved, I mean deep in my heart grieved, when I act the fool and make Christians look stupid or arrogant or self-righteous or judgemental.

I fail far more than I succeed, when it comes to representing Christ in this world, and it just breaks me to know that. I have never brought anyone to a belief in Christ, but I have probably contributed to conversations that caused people to turn away from Him.

GothicGyrl

02-07-2008, 11:56 AM

And I will preface this by saying "You asked". And the "you" in my post is the general you, not YOU or anyone particular posting.

For me, there are many reasons, and I am perfectly capable of finding friends outside of a church. There is so much more to life than that, church should not be your only existence. I have friends from all walks of life, some Christian, some not. In fact, my very best friend in the world is Christian.

For me, it boils down to: I prefer company where I'm not always defending myself, not having to listen to bigoted, hatefilled discussions about how everyone is going to hell for not following your breed of faith, etc... Fortunately, so far, I've always been in a position to just walk away. But my kids miss out on a LOT of homeschool group activities because like you, I choose not to subject my children to the negativity that is being spouted. I am sick and tired of hearing "He's gay? OMG he's going to burn in hell!!" and other various exclamatory comments.

If we can have a discussion about politics, religion and the like WITHOUT that, then I count you amongst a friend. Otherwise, you are not worth my time.

Now, I'm just pulling quotes from various posts and adding on to them. I am neither agreeing or disagreeing but extrapolating on what they say.

Perhaps it's because
the type of behaviour that is "objectionable" is done in the name of Christianity? And the response is then to wish to distance oneself from that "label"?

Hence why I no longer participate in any homeschool function. Everything is done "in the name of Jesus" while the leader spouts "But we accept all kinds of people and beliefs". It's a load of bullhockey and she knows it. And I'm sick of walking in to a functin having to justify why I allow my daughter to listen to that "ebil goth music" or wear black (BECAUSE SHE CAN!! AND I AM her mother not you). There has been so much more that is worse, done "in the name of" than there has been good. You ask any former and they'll tell you everything I've said and then some. You WILL get the answer to your question.

Pam will be the only one I address by name:
I haven't one good clue as to how someone finds a network of IRL friends outside a church. It perplexes me how to navigate society.

I do quite well, thank you very much. Which is another reason I chose to back away from Christianity. I am tired of all the restrictions and the assumptions that I must be one way and only one way and I can't possibly be a Christian if I'm not that way (to stress, I realize YOU didn't say this). Which is why I do quite well. I am not limited to "only" Church, I go ALL over, to many places some here would drive by crossing themselves. :) I go clubbing, I drink, I socialize with my friends, I get out of the house all the time. Church is not the end all be all of socialization and because I realize that, I got a full and wide range of friends from all walks of life that also feel free and not limited.

Of course I realize you(now I'm back to the general you) might come back and say "I feel free, I do all sorts of things within the Church". That, to me, is still confinement. I refuse to have my style of clothes, my music, my bedroom, my life dictated to me by anyone. And I know realize that that is exactly what Christianity is. It's a dictatorship-- "Believe in me and you will be free--but ONLY if you dress this way, believe this way, follow this way"... no, sorry. My life is so much more than that and I enjoy it very much. This causes so many people grief because they all feel they have to "save me". Sorry-- ***I AM NOT*** the one who needs saving. My life is just fine, dandy and satisfying the way it is.

Yes, i walked away due to the behavior of some. But I was hesitant to join in the first place. I did so for my kids. And when I saw them turning into little bigoted, hatefilled, monsters-- that was enough. I will NOT have my children walking around proclaiming everyone is going to hell because of what they choose to do in their bedroom and with whom. I was raised to love everyone, no matter what their sexual orientation is, I was raised to respect everyone, no matter their race or color and I was raised to enjoy my life.

The whole "love the sinner not the sin" is a lie to me. You can't say "I love you" then add a "but" at the end. It's either you do or you don't. It's that simple. I will not put conditions on love, kindness, or charity. And that's what I see the church doing--"Oh sure, we'll baptise your baby, but you must join us first".. whatever happened to "Jesus loves ALL the little children, not just the members of your congregation"?

Am I bitter? Doubly NOT. I've always believed like this, even when I was "saved". I just realized now and opened my eyes wider to the fact that I want ZERO part of ANY(let me stress that, ANY) organization that does not practice what they preach.

Disclaimer: Only one person has been named, everything is the general you, I realize "ebil" is not a word so don't waste my time, this is only my opinion--she DID ask Why and I told her. Of course I realize some might not be that way, but you are not in my life outside of this message board and even then, some of you DO act like this and that burns me, although to be fair, I've not seen it since we switched boards. This is all my OWN opinion, I am not bitter or angry, just Open Minded and finally aware. This is all my own opinion and I am simply answering the OP's question. If you are going to sling neg rep at me, have the guts to sign your name, otherwise you prove every point I've made.

whew....

OnTheBrink

02-07-2008, 11:58 AM

Thank you all for your responses. :)

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

02-07-2008, 12:10 PM

I do quite well, thank you very much. Which is another reason I chose to back away from Christianity. I am tired of all the restrictions and the assumptions that I must be one way and only one way and I can't possibly be a Christian if I'm not that way (to stress, I realize YOU didn't say this). Which is why I do quite well. I am not limited to "only" Church, I go ALL over, to many places some here would drive by crossing themselves. :) I go clubbing, I drink, I socialize with my friends, I get out of the house all the time. Church is not the end all be all of socialization and because I realize that, I got a full and wide range of friends from all walks of life that also feel free and not limited.

Well, good for you.

Don't know why I got a "...thank you very much," but okay.

*anj*

02-07-2008, 12:10 PM

"You know, I just don't believe that anymore."...People do not believe me when I say that. They assume I must have been in the wrong church, that I wasn't a "real" Christian, or that someone deeply offended me or led me astray....
Blaming someone else is always easier than figuring out the truth or illogic of it for yourself. A shorter cut from point A to point B.

I can really identify with what Pam said here.
I am a Christian, and a Protestant. But I was formerly Catholic. I had been very actively involved in my parish, very friendly with the priest, etc. So when I left the Catholic church, some people were very confused. My leaving was a process that took place over time, but obviously you don't share every little personal tidbit with everyone in your circle. Anyway, after I left, there were people who were convinced that someone had hurt me or that I didn't like the new priest, or that something must have "happened." Nothing "happened", except I looked at the church's teachings with new eyes and no longer believed them. That was it. And I know that some people will say that I must have never truly believed or understood the church's teaching on xyz, but that isn't true. I was a very well educated and very well informed Catholic. I was fervently pious. It's just that over time I began to question many things and one by one I lost belief in them.
One woman even said "Your leaving makes me wonder why I am still here. What do you understand that I don't? And why don't I understand it?"

I don't know.
One more thing: I really struggled with whether or not to say "I was in a certain church..." instead of naming the church. I sincerely hope that any Catholics who may be reading won't be too hurt by what I've said. I wasn't trying to be divisive. And I know how I used to feel about former Catholics...
But I decided to name the church for the sake of clarity, and so that people don't have to sit in their houses wondering "Was she Catholic? Was she Mormon? Was she Jehovah's Witness?" etc.

GothicGyrl

02-07-2008, 12:16 PM

Well, good for you.

Don't know why I got a "...thank you very much," but okay.
I am pretty sure I am confused, but (Pam) are you coming from an "I AM a Christian" or "I think I am" or "I was but now I'm just searching" or something else?

Because your last statement the one about not being able to understand how we socialize outside of church, is what brought my "thank you very much" on. It came across as a "I can't fathom any other way so they must not be getting any if they aren't getting it from church".

And I'm also not sure why the venom in your post towards my response to you as I was just answering what I perceived that statement to mean.

So what did I do wrong now?

OnTheBrink

02-07-2008, 12:24 PM

GothicGyrl,

Wow. I am sorry you've had those experiences. I've never felt I had to defend my choice of friends, or dress, or activities in my church and if I had to, I'd be pretty ticked about it.

I appreciate your and the other responses and the honesty. And, I truly hope I've NOT come across as holier-than-thou or judgmental here. I certainly don't *feel* that way, that I'm better than anyone or that I am judging them.

GothicGyrl

02-07-2008, 12:27 PM

There are a select few on this board who have acted the way I said, but as I also said--to be fair--I've not seen it lately. So I don't know if that means they didn't make it over to the new board or what.

Well, some of them must be here judging by my neg rep comments, but as I said before--if you can't leave your name, it isn't worth my time.

And don't be sorry for me, Sola. It's just how it is. There are many like me who feel like I do and have been treated the same. We just grow up, out and move on. :)

Kate in Arabia

02-07-2008, 12:32 PM

I was raised Christian and converted to Islam as an adult (some fifteen years ago). I didn't leave Christianty because of anyone, nor did I choose Islam because of anyone. I get that question *a lot* -- "did you convert for your husband?" It was a long process for me (years) and did not involve the good or bad actions of anyone from either faith.

Amy in NH

02-07-2008, 12:34 PM

Toni,

I believe Pam is of the used-to-be variety, and really truly is feeling lonely and isolated not knowing how to find a good community of IRL friends outside of a church setting. Maybe it would be helpful to her (and me) to hear about how you find friends IRL, because people I can really relate to IRL are few and far between.

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

02-07-2008, 12:36 PM

I am pretty sure I am confused, but (Pam) are you coming from an "I AM a Christian" or "I think I am" or "I was but now I'm just searching" or something else?

Because your last statement the one about not being able to understand how we socialize outside of church, is what brought my "thank you very much" on. It came across as a "I can't fathom any other way so they must not be getting any if they aren't getting it from church".

And I'm also not sure why the venom in your post towards my response to you as I was just answering what I perceived that statement to mean.

So what did I do wrong now?

You didn't read my post. Simply that, I think. And I answered your question directly about a week ago. No, I'm not a Christian.

Good for you, that you know how to do it. (That's venomous? Hmmm. My apologies. I'm not sure how to say good for you in a way that could be taken as anything but as pleased that you have such great social skills even thought I don't. Sorry that was venomous, and I guess I should stop and try another day.)

How's this: I am so pleased that you know how to navigate socially and have a great circle of friends even though I have not figured this out yet. Which is what I thought I said in my first post. Everyone else seems to know how to do this and I don't and that makes me sad. For me, though, not for them. Good for others that they "get" how to do it.

I hope that was less venomous.

Karin

02-07-2008, 12:41 PM

So I've been on a few sides of this. I was a devout young child and even helped teach Sunday School when I was 14 (I volunteered--no one would have thought to ask me because I certainly didn't fit the stereotype of teen helper!!!). I left at 15 for many reasons. For one, I thought it was hypocritical to go to church every Sunday but do nothing else with it. I went to an Anglical church and the minister at that time was a lot like the first one described in Anne of Green Gables--old, monotone voice, no life to it.

I searched many, many placed for answers. Spiritualism, Buddhism and a number of others. I had my own very strong ideas that I developed. When I went to university I found that nothing I studied fit together when I examined it.

In the end, I became a very biblically based Christian, but I accept only what I can see from Scripture, not tradition. I am far from perfect, but this is all that makes sense when I really examine it closely. I have many interesting discussions with many people who don't all think the same way as me because I truly believe that everyone has free will.

I have seen some people be very, very hurt by people in the name of Christianity, and even left a church that had become abusive (started off wonderful.) I have seen people very, very hurt, including me. But not everyone in that church was abusive and there are still some wonderful people there. The reason I still believe what I do is that I put my trust in God, not in people. You can't find any perfect people.

One of the most welcoming people in my first homeschooling group was Nadia, who is Muslim. She is kind, gracious and very much given to that Danish hospitality. Another was a Christian in a different denomination than me with some very different theological beliefs. Nadia and I have each moved, but here she is on this board.

GothicGyrl

02-07-2008, 12:43 PM

The I owe Pam and Amy in NH an apology. I am sorry I took your post Pam, wrongly. :(

How's this: I am so pleased that you know how to navigate socially and have a great circle of friends even though I have not figured this out yet. Which is what I thought I said in my first post. Everyone else seems to know how to do this and I don't and that makes me sad. For me, though, not for them. Good for others that they "get" how to do it.

This is why I took it so wrong--I did not get that in the original post. So that's why I apologize. :(

As for helping you find IRL friends outside of church--I don't know that I can. As I said, I've got a very select group of friends (only select in activity, not personality), and I am not so sure that is what you want. I kind of think it's cliche for anyone to say "Go clubbing", :) because that really isn't for everyone. (And I think I've used up all four smilies, so just insert a smiley wherever).

Is it that you can't make friends because you don't get out or don't know where to go, or that you go to those places and people don't seem to want to make friends beyond idle chit chat?

If it is the second one--for me, I'd say "sod off then". Because anyone who is worth a friendship, WILL come to you (and likewise you will show up for them at the right time). It'll just happen.

If it is the first, in that you just don't know where to go-- umm, hmm.... again, I'm not sure my kind of places are your kind. I do Ybor City (which is tons of clubbing and nightlife), and I have a network of friends from there, message boards we are all on. I do bowling, which means I join adult leagues and I've made one good friend that way. To me, even one friend is the best friend ever.

If I knew more of what you like, I could give ideas. But for me, it's all about the dancing, music, dressing up and weirdly and having fun. It's just what I do.

j.griff

02-07-2008, 12:45 PM

GothicGyrl

02-07-2008, 12:54 PM

Now I can't stand how other "Christians" judge me for not attending church (IMO church is the place where people give their tithes, and that money is used to build bigger buildings, pay for the current building, put new carpeting in the sanctuary, etc- but it is NOT used to HELP the needy, because the needy aren't members of that church).

This is another real beef of mine. Where are all the people who are called by God, in the bible, to help out the poor, the needy, the elderly, the alone and pregnant, etc...? It becomes a "not unless you are a member" game. I was told in my former church (evangelical, I know I know) that it IS "all about the numbers". If you tithed this much this week, "Tithe MORE. We need more!!"

One of my very biggest upsets is abortion clinics. Ok--you are pro-life, I'm seriously not knocking you for that, honestly. But umm, that clinic you are protesting and working to keep women from having one in--what do you do after you "Win"? Do you actually HELP that woman (who may very well be having one because she simply and honestly can NOT take care of it, and for whom adoption is not the answer as it isn't for most) take care of that child? Do you direct her to services for medical? Housing? Substance abuse?

Or you do stand there and count the win? :( Sadly, I can also answer this, they stand there and count the "win". I was flat out told "It is not my job to help them, only to stop them from killing their child, that's more important than anything else".

So is food, basic shelter.. what if she really does not have that? "Doesn't matter, the child lives".

See where I'm going with this? Where is the True Christian love, kindness, charity?

Rich with Kids

02-07-2008, 12:59 PM

I kinda "lost my innocence" with religion recently. I am a member of a large baptist church and I am fed up with the church politics and hypocrisy. I still attend this church because the children's program and the youth program are outstanding. S.S., AWANAS, Upward Basketball, VBS, summer camp, mission trips...that's just a partial list! As an adult, though, I see so many people that put on their "church face" and it's sickening. So, for me, our church is mostly socialization. I try my best to keep my personal relationship with Christ on track by being accountable to my dh (and him to me) and working in the Children's ministry. I'm not a church hopper, so we are trying to stick it out, hoping things change.

edit- I am accountable to God. DH and I help each other stay that way.

Mekanamom

02-07-2008, 12:59 PM

And I can relate to both Pam and Anj...

I'm not going to name my former church. ;) But there is an assumption that I (or anyone who leaves) did so because someone "offended" me. (Or because I was too lazy to follow the teachings and wanted to sin. LOL, that's assumption #2.)

It wasn't the people in the church, or the way the church was run that made me leave. Everyone was very nice, actually. I just simply didn't believe that the teachings were true. That's really all there was to it. And no... people, especially those who still belong to that particular church, don't often believe me when I say that. There is a widespread assumption that people leave "because of other people" (or because they gave in to the temptation to sin), even when it really isn't the case.

Anyway. It doesn't answer the question of why a person would leave an entire belief system simply based on the behavior of other people... and I have no answer for that... well, other than people come and go in social groups all the time. But moving from one group to another isn't the same as abandoning a belief system entirely.

Sue G in PA

02-07-2008, 01:03 PM

I just wanted to say that b/c I don't choose my friends based on religion. There are so many Christians I simply would not choose to be my closest friends. And, there are an equal number of non-Christians that I consider some of my best friends. Gothic Gyrl, I've been blessed by so many of your posts and by everyone else who has posted. Honestly, until now, I didn't know where many of you stood on religious matters. I am a Christian, a young earth Creationist, a conservative republican, etc. BUT, I am a woman, a mother, a wife, a homeschooler, a friend, etc. just like all of you (unless you are a guy and then not, LOL!). A Christian cannot "convert" someone else to a belief in Christ w/out the power of the Holy Spirit. AND, a Christian cannot convert someone else to a belief in Christ by judging, coming down on how they dress, how they talk, how they act, what they watch on TV or listen to on the radio, how they raise their kids, whether they smoke, drink, curse or whatever. Jesus didn't do that! He LOVED! EVERYBODY! He didn't judge! He never looked down His perfect nose on anyone and thought, "what a scum.". This is getting long, but really, I just wanted to say that there are Christians who think it their job to single-handedly "change the world". It's sad. When we point a finger, there are 3 more pointing back at us. Jesus said that we can't see clearly enough to "take the speck out of somebody else's eye" until we can "take the PLANK out of our own (my wording). I am too imperfect, too broken, too much a sinner, etc. to judge anyone else. My heart is for ALL to come to Christ, it is true,...but I realize my job is only to LOVE...not to be judge and jury. That's God's job. You ALL are such amazing people. I LOVE the diversity on this board and learn something new every day. I've been so blessed by so many encouraging words when I felt like just throwing in the towel. I'm not trying to put an end to this post...it is very interesting. Just know that I love you all and appreciate you all regardless of your religious choice. If I have come across wrong...forgive me.

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

02-07-2008, 01:06 PM

The I owe Pam and Amy in NH an apology. I am sorry I took your post Pam, wrongly. :(

I'm sorry it wasn't more clear, then. No worries.

I'm friendly. I make friends. I'm old, though, and perpetually the new girl because we moved every 1-3 years. People already have their networks and communities and "tribes." With church, it's just an extended family everywhere you go. The idea of going clubbing at my age makes me guffaw, really.

I'm tired and PMS-y today. Tomorrow I'll be fine and all will be well again. Mostly I was just feeling sorry for myself, which is actually pretty dumb. I'm just feeling keenly, like Max the King of All Wild Things, the need to jump in the boat and sail in and out of weeks and through a day and go where they love me best of all. At least my supper is usually hot in the lonely place.

(Pitiful. Pathetic, even. Ignore at will.) http://www.vpsingles.com/pics/violin.gif (http://www.vpsingles.com/icons.htm)

Night Elf

02-07-2008, 01:13 PM

I question truth because of the thoughts I have from watching other people with the same set of beliefs. Oh my, this is hard to explain. I had a firm belief for the longest time but I hear one thing preached, see another practiced, read another thing on my own from the Bible, etc. Things can be interpreted in different ways and if Person A is so adamant that Truth is one thing while Person B is just as adamant that Truth is something else, then I can't help but wonder who is right, who is wrong, or if there is no Truth at all. It would be much easier to believe in one thing done one way. But I find it very difficult to believe when there are so many different versions of Truth around. What I'm left with is the feeling that the original Truth has been so distorted over time that it's unrecognizable. I'm literally afraid to believe for fear that I'm believing more in man than in God.

Hope that helps.

Amy in VA

02-07-2008, 01:15 PM

Aww, Pam.. We love you. Move back to Cville. :)

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

02-07-2008, 01:17 PM

That would work. ;)

And I do feel loved. I'm just having a bad day.

Melinda in VT

02-07-2008, 01:28 PM

Add me onto the Pam, Anj, and Mekanamom list.:D

I've participated in Internet boards for people who have left my particular religion, and quite a few of us talk about feeling like we need classes in how to get along socially in the real world. It's interesting to note that it's not unique to our denomination.

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

02-07-2008, 01:33 PM

And I can relate to both Pam and Anj...
(Or because I was too lazy to follow the teachings and wanted to sin. LOL, that's assumption #2.)

Ha! I *know* there's a lot of "I wonder what Pam's sin was" speculation. It's pretty funny.

Yeah, sure, I just wanted to go wallow in mire and self-destruct. That was it. :D

GothicGyrl

02-07-2008, 01:35 PM

Pam, if you lived here, we'd be friends. It's that simple. I'm actually better friends with people older than me, than I am with some my age. Almost all of my club friends are older. :) Feel pms-y and worn out- you are allowed to feel that way any time you (or anyone else wants), it's what helps us live. :)

And to be honest, I question everything. Nightelf brought up that she questioned the truth of it. So do I. A man in a whale? 968 years old? Umm, if you didn't want them taking fruit from that forbidden tree, why was it there in the first place and why lable it "tree of knowledge" if we were never meant to have any?

I honestly do resepect others belief systems and I usually don't engage in any discussion of said systems, unless I am provoked into doing so. And that respect is a two way street, if you want me to respect your faith, please respect my non-faith. It doesn't work that way all the time, which is why, I suspect, some feel those of us who have "fallen" are bitter and angry, when we truly are not.

And contrary to popular belief (in general, not here) I DO have morals, I DO have beliefs, I DO follow a set of "rules". I just don't do those things based on what someone tells me they should be. I follow man's laws, I listen to my elders and I have respect. Most of us like me, do. Just because we don't have "faith" like you do, doesn't mean we lack morals, rules, beliefs, or anything else.

PixieKris

02-07-2008, 01:59 PM

I am there with the "I just didn't believe the teachings were true." We still go to the same church (sometimes) still visit our friends churches, still skip church at the same frequency as we did before I grew away from the teachings. We're still teaching our daughter to question everything, and though you might not agree with someone's belief, we can all still learn from each other. Sometimes you learn things you want to imitate, and sometimes you learn things you do not, but a deep and empathetic understanding of humanity is vital. We teach that we all have beliefs, and spirituality is part of the human condition, defined differently by different people. (And, the actual defintion is a challenge... assuming you have the same definition as another is not an assumption that should be made lightly.)

We were fortunate. When I was growing up, my social world was our chuch. My daughters social world is her homeschool community. We were very lucky (blessed :) ) to find a homeschool community with such diversity and vitality. I realize that communities such as ours do not exist everywhere, and finding and making friends with similar values can be a challenge. SolaMichella - I greatly enjoyed reading this thread, (studying spirituality is a hobby and love of mine) and have enjoyed reading all of the responses. Thank you for your bravery in posting. :)

Free Indeed

02-07-2008, 02:30 PM

mcconnellboys

02-07-2008, 02:46 PM

I think people often get hurt, and sometimes by their church community, and so they withdraw from that. I think perhaps if that sort of thing happens to them more than once, they may just withdraw into themselves and decide that they won't try any more. I don't even necessarily think that they become so embittered that they actually don't believe in God anymore, I think they may just label themselves as "not" Christian because they are not in community with other Christians in an organized group of some sort - and some folks think that in order to *be* Christian, that is a necessity.

I think Barna's book, "Revolution", is making some rethink what it means to be a Christian and "in community" (through his reporting of a phenomena already in progress), but I think maybe the process of change will be slow and drawn out for a while before it gains enough momentum for folks to truly see it happening around them. Maybe as folks begin to be able to redefine for themselves what it means for them to "be Christian", some who now label themselves as "not" will again be able to label themselves as "back in the fold"....

Conversely, I also know people who have never in their lives really been in community and who have always considered themselves staunchly Christian. They don't feel that they require any form of organized religion whatsoever in order to fit within that description. I'm not entirely certain they are correct, either, but a lot of how we choose to label ourselves depends on our own understanding of the world - and, hey, perception is everything....

Regena

Diana in OR

02-07-2008, 02:49 PM

I question truth because of the thoughts I have from watching other people with the same set of beliefs.... What I'm left with is the feeling that the original Truth has been so distorted over time that it's unrecognizable. I'm literally afraid to believe for fear that I'm believing more in man than in God.

You have to hold actions up against Scripture. That's the only way. It took me years to delineate my lifestyle with my Christianity. It's very freeing. I know a lot of people who do/don't do certain things because of their Christian beliefs. That's their choice. But, for example, if someone tells me they don't (insert vice here) because Christians aren't supposed to, I can simply say, "Show me that in the Bible, please." If it's in the Bible, great, and I should be behaving accordingly myself. If it's not in the Bible, then it's a choice. Period.

Kelli in TN

02-07-2008, 02:51 PM

think Barna's book, "Revolution", is making some rethink what it means to be a Christian and "in community" (through his reporting of a phenomena already in progress), but I think maybe the process of change will be slow and drawn out for a while before it gains enough momentum for folks to truly see it happening around them.
Regena

Could you tell me about this book?

PiCO

02-07-2008, 02:55 PM

PariSarah

02-07-2008, 03:06 PM

Sure, if you met Pam and developed a close and abiding friendship with her, you would treat her with respect regardless of her belief or non-belief in God.

But her problem is, I think, how does one meet and develop close and abiding friendships with people when one major--before this century, really the major--avenue for doing that has been blocked?

The two primary forums (fora?) in which people develop close friendships are work/school and religious congregation. It's not just that they meet people there, but that what they do together there gives them something to talk about, to be friends over. Pam has a non-traditional status both at school and at her place of worship. So she doesn't have that automatic connection that is the usual beginning place of close friendships.

I am one of those people with a strong belief in the sacred worth of all human beings, with a strong commitment to being in communion with people who are different than me. Even with that strong commitment, guess what? Most of my good friends either go to my church or to my school. It's not because I'm a bigoted jerk. It's because that's how life . . . I don't know, pushes you? Guides you? That's how you form the bonds that are necessary for friendship, and it's difficult to form real friendships in other ways.

I think that's Pam's point, GG. Not that people don't like her because she's not religious.

PariSarah

02-07-2008, 03:08 PM

Good to "see" you!

I don't know if you've been here for awhile and I've just missed you, but you were on my "I wonder where _____ is" list.

Scarlett

02-07-2008, 03:09 PM

A few thoughts, all of which are not related to OP's question/comment.

My experience and observation tells me that humans have an overwhelming need to belong. Everyone wants a tribe. Well, I'm sure not everyone, but usually they have issues if they just want to be alone all the time.

I think we were created to belong to a tribe. That is not to say we should all like pink, long hair, brussel sprouts, and good shoes. But basically, we all just want to fit in. I know *I* feel the best when I am with the group of people who believe most of what I believe about everything...not just religion....but everything.

I've observed though, that in the absence of religion, people create some sort of other tribe. I've been amused to watch this play out with Biker types when I've gone to watch my BIL play in his band at such functions. I feel as if I am watching from afar at those events because I have Absolutely Nothing in common with Anyone there. Yet, I can see the warm feeling (ok, maybe that is the rum they are drinking) they all feel toward each other because they are in the same club--so to speak.

So I would say to people (myself included) to seperate out the need for a tribe from searching for religious/Biblical/Godly Truth. I've asked myself before, 'If everyone I love was suddenly dead, would I still be worshipping this way?' Because what other people do or say or believe cannot determine what Truth is.

PiCO

02-07-2008, 03:17 PM

Good to "see" you!

I don't know if you've been here for awhile and I've just missed you, but you were on my "I wonder where _____ is" list.

Well, thanks for saying "hi!"

I'm still getting used to the new forum format:confused:, but I'm still here.

j.griff

02-07-2008, 03:24 PM

I think you need to figure out what your interests are, and pursue them- then you will meet people with similar interests. Do you quilt? Get on yahoo groups and look for a quilting group in your area, or just join a big one and see if there's anyone on there that's from your area, look on google and see if there are any quilting classes- even though you may already know how to do it, you could go for social reasons and help others there (if you have the time and the funds, and you NEED to make the time and funds for SOMETHING for yourself a priority) and just share the joy of the hobby with the people there (this includes the teachers/instructors). Whatever you like to do, or want to do, just go out and do it. Don't dismiss others because they don't agree with you on everything, people with differing opinions can be the most wonderful friends. If you don't want to hang out at a bar, hang out at a coffee house or something, go to a bookstore where they have "entertainment" (Our Borders has local performers on the weekends, and they have board games set up all the time where people can come in and play against each other and enjoy a cup of coffee). Start your own group (I know it can be hard to get one up and running, but it's worth a try isn't it?) if there's not any group that interests you in your area. :D
To meet people at church, you have to GO to church, and you have to TALK to people there ;)
It's the same concept for meeting people any where else.

Jenny in Atl

02-07-2008, 03:24 PM

*anj*

02-07-2008, 03:32 PM

Sure, if you met Pam and developed a close and abiding friendship with her, you would treat her with respect regardless of her belief or non-belief in God.

I think that's Pam's point, GG. Not that people don't like her because she's not religious.

Very well said, Sarah.
And I highlighted those parts above because I think that Pam is a perfect case in point. Pam is a great person. She is a great board-mate and I've actually had the pleasure of meeting her in person and she is just as warm and funny and smart in person as she is on the board. And she's not a Christian. And I am. And, so what?

And as Sarah said above, in a situation like Pam's it's hard because she is non-traditional both at school and at the church that she attends. It's kind of like if you are the first one in your crowd of IRL friends to get married and have kids and you find that you don't click as well with your friends because your priorities and interests have changed. Also, you just don't have the same amount of time to devote to nurturing the relationships as you once did.

I've often thought that if my husband died I'd probably just stay single because I would have no idea how to go about meeting someone else.

mcconnellboys

02-07-2008, 03:42 PM

George Barna is a writer of seminal Christian works from way back. He's been a pollster for years. He's been doing research on how the face of Christianity is changing and he's found that, in fact, Christianity is changing down to its very core. His book, Revolution, is a short, easy read.

In it, he talks about how some are embracing the idea of *being* the church, rather than just attending church, and are actually leaving organized religion behind, or combining services offered from multiple churches, rather than being "members" of only a single denomination. He talks about how this will change the face of Christianity completely within the next few decades if the trend continues.

Some churches have actually begun offering group studies of this book (trying to skip the parts they don't like, I suppose), rather like they did with Purpose Driven Life, etc. I guess they think the best offense is a good defense, I don't know....

Very interesting read. I recommend it,

Regena

Night Elf

02-07-2008, 03:48 PM

You have to hold actions up against Scripture. That's the only way. It took me years to delineate my lifestyle with my Christianity. It's very freeing. I know a lot of people who do/don't do certain things because of their Christian beliefs. That's their choice. But, for example, if someone tells me they don't (insert vice here) because Christians aren't supposed to, I can simply say, "Show me that in the Bible, please." If it's in the Bible, great, and I should be behaving accordingly myself. If it's not in the Bible, then it's a choice. Period.

Except it's also hard to believe in the Bible itself. Even different denominations disagree. I grew up Catholic thinking The Bible was The Bible the same all around the world. Except then I started going to a Baptist church with my aunt and I learned that The Bible didn't include some of the Books that my Catholic Bible had. Later I learned that the King James Version was authorized by King James in the early 1600s, meaning there was another version of the Bible before that. I now think of the Bible as a work of man about God. I just don't believe it is the true word from God. I really believe that it might have been something True at one time but it's been so distorted by man (probably for reasons that relate to power and authority) that it's lost it's Godliness. Then of course there are all the different stories of creation and of a flood in so many different cultures. I used to believe that they were all adopted from THE TRUTH, except then I learned (where I don't remember) that some of these stories predated the Bible!

So I no longer believe that a son of God, a Saviour, has come to earth. If He had, I believe there wouldn't be so much division now. There are just too many contradictions. And I honestly believe, yes I'll admit this aloud, that if I believe in the Bible then I'm allowing someone to influence me away from God. I really don't have a religious label at all. I do pray and talk to God all the time and I believe I am guided by Him in some way that is only known to Him. But I do not go through anything physical, whether man or book, to get to God. If that makes sense.

Amy in NH

02-07-2008, 04:05 PM

Yes! Yes!

I completely agree. :D

melissel

02-07-2008, 04:06 PM

So I no longer believe that a son of God, a Saviour, has come to earth. If He had, I believe there wouldn't be so much division now. There are just too many contradictions. And I honestly believe, yes I'll admit this aloud, that if I believe in the Bible then I'm allowing someone to influence me away from God. I really don't have a religious label at all. I do pray and talk to God all the time and I believe I am guided by Him in some way that is only known to Him. But I do not go through anything physical, whether man or book, to get to God. If that makes sense.

Oh Beth. I've never heard anyone else sum up exactly how I feel about this, but that's what you just did. I've been doing a lot of soul searching about this recently, and what you just said is exactly the place I've come to. Thanks for saying it for me!

And this has been a wonderful and thought-provoking thread. Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to share their thoughts.

GothicGyrl

02-07-2008, 04:25 PM

I very much agree with this post. I teach my children that we are to love others- all people- but that does not mean we agree with all their choices just as they do not believe in all of ours. That said there was a very interesting article written by Michael Pearl that if you have time to read and comment on as unbelievers (or believers :D )I would love to hear your thoughts- on this article not on their child rearing beliefs which I know is a hot topic (said with a big smile). It is here: http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/topics/bible-teaching/article-display/archive////learning-from-the-atheists/?tx_ttnews%5BbackPID%5D=3
Free Indeed--No offense, but I would never recommend ANYthing by the Pearl's for either Christian or Non-Christian. I won't go in to detail, you can research yourself, but the Pearl's are the last person I'd ever recommend for any kind of advice. It is neither good nor prosperous. And once I got to the part about him equating my beliefs with that of a child molester, he lost me (Pigs in Space). The Pearl's are just not a reference tool that is legit in any way. How's that for an answer?

I didn't mean to imply that no one likes Pam because she isn't a Christian, I don't know how that came about. I just said that as a way to cheer her up. I've had and met people on message boards that told me they'd love to be my friend IRL and once they met me (as if my telling them how different I was wasn't enough), they ceased all contact with me due to those differences. They didn't realize "I was telling the truth and that they just didn't expect such difference".

So I no longer believe that a son of God, a Saviour, has come to earth. If He had, I believe there wouldn't be so much division now. There are just too many contradictions.
This pretty much sums it up. Too many contradictions, no one can agree on even one thing, everyone fights over these things, too much hypocrisy, etc... It just isn't worth believing in any more.

Jenny in Atl

02-07-2008, 04:33 PM

And it's not just the Christian faith that has this... Jews, Buddhist, Muslims, etc all have factions fighting over who has it right.

Mrs Mungo

02-07-2008, 04:34 PM

Wow. I am Christian, but I have walked away from church for many of the reasons GothicGyrl posted. I don't feel a need to "join" a group of people to be "saved". I want to love everyone, and not judge them for anything. That doesn't mean I'll Like everyone, LOL- but I can choose to accept people as they are. I would much rather be a spokesperson for Christianity by LIVING the Truth instead of preaching it at people. And I surely don't want to be a "member" of a group of people that just don't have beliefs that line up with mine- and who are unaccepting of people who disagree (you don't agree with the sermon x gave this morning? why? you must not understand what he was saying, you must need an elder to counsel you, surely there is some way we can brainwash you into seeing it OUR way, because OUR way is THE way). <sigh>.
Now I can't stand how other "Christians" judge me for not attending church (IMO church is the place where people give their tithes, and that money is used to build bigger buildings, pay for the current building, put new carpeting in the sanctuary, etc- but it is NOT used to HELP the needy, because the needy aren't members of that church).
Okay, so that is MNSHO, and I don't want to debate with anyone about it LOL, and I don't want/need anyone to tell me that I am wrong or misguided. :)

I probably connect with this post more than any other. I'm a Christian but "the church" drives me crazy as do some Christians. I'll never forget my daughter asking a girl in our homeschool group (not a church-based homeschool group) what she was going to be for Halloween and the girl telling her Halloween was the devil's birthday. Now, seriously, that's just silly.

As far as believe "the truth" of a man in a whale or 986 years old..well, I'm not a literalist. I don't think everything in The Bible is *literally* true. I'm not a young-earther. I don't think I have to *know* how the earth and/or life came about in order to believe in God or Christ.

As far as churches having lots of social activities, especially for kids-it's true and that's what draws and/or keeps a lot of people there. I think the key factor there is they own a big building. I mean, I can have all the desire to run a homeschool co-op or whatnot in the world but I have to have a building.

Most of our social network comes through the military community but I have friends (or had...before we moved...I don't have any friends here yet) through other outlets as well. Some of my friends I met by going to scrapbook crops. Some I met through our homeschool group. It's often hard for military because we *do* move. It kind of sucks to have to start over every few years. I think Scarlett's views on belonging to a tribe are excellent observations.

PinkInTheBlue

02-07-2008, 07:20 PM

Ok, since so many have been so wonderfully honest in this conversation, I'll put mine out there too. :) I NEVER discuss this in my "real" life because it's something that has completely evolved between my husband and I and my family and friends would NOT understand.

My family joined the church when I was a teenager. We immediately became 'every time the door's open' family and served in so many ways. We were there multiple times a day and had a great time. Matter fact, I ended up marrying the preacher's son who was also a preacher. It's a full-fledged preaching family; dad, son, son, uncle, etc. After many years of seeing so many massive hypocrisies in that family (particularly the dad and my now-ex) and the many visiting preachers and evangelists, I knew enough to be done with that. That's not the only reason I'm divorced, but it helps. The details aren't important but let me say it's enough.

So, from that, I was definitely finished with "church".

That really assisted me to step back anyway and realize how offensive I found it that my relationship and knowledge of God had to come to me from a man who preached or man (occasionally woman) who taught Sunday School. I can't even begin to tell you how many friends and family or associates I have who can't tell me what they believe without the defense of "that's what my pastor said". I believe God wants me to know him straight through him. It's more than possible; it's necessary.

I think the realization that SO many (if not nearly all) Christians in church are sheep. They don't think for themselves. They don't decide their beliefs for themselves. They believe what a preacher tells them and what snippets they read from the Bible (another can of worms). I started looking at the things I had been TOLD to believe and stepping back to say "What do I think about this?". I compared it to what I knew about the nature of God and occasional reading of authors of varying opinions and just common sense. Very often I came out with the same belief but at least it was MINE and not what I had been told to believe. Many things I came out with different beliefs than what I had previously had. And that's what is separating me from many family members and previous friends. The lack of going to church is enough to make most of them question my Christianity. Imagine how they'd feel if the know how I felt about homosexuality now? LOL

Forgive my long post with many, probable errors. I've never "said" this outside of my marriage so putting it "out there" is a bit vulnerable. I'm trying to type quickly before I change my mind! LOL

j.griff

02-07-2008, 07:23 PM

I met an atheist once who called people who follow the crowd, or follow someone's teachings without thinking for themselves "sheeple". :)

Diana in OR

02-07-2008, 08:00 PM

Except it's also hard to believe in the Bible itself... I just don't believe it is the true word from God.

You are correct that you must already have a belief in the Bible itself. It helps to do some research on the history of the Bible, and how it came to include the books that it includes. Since I'm a bookworm and love history, I find it very interesting.

I won't start a debate here, but there are Christians who believe the King James version is the only authoritative version.

Liz CA

02-07-2008, 08:04 PM

Personally, I miss being aligned with other Christians. They were my tribe. I don't have a tribe anymore. And it's lonely. I haven't one good clue as to how someone finds a network of IRL friends outside a church. It perplexes me how to navigate society.

don't you associate with your friends anymore? Were they friends or just fellow-Christians? I think there is a big difference. I have a few good friends and I know many fellow-Christians.
If this friend (or if I) had doubts, expressed that "I don't believe this anymore", I don't think our friendship would dissolve on the spot like butter on a griddle. I have friends that are not Christians. I love them as much as my Christian friends. Sure, there are differences in opinion, sometimes due to the faith issue but we can always disagree and still be friends.
More importantly, I don't think it's biblical to shun everyone who is not a Christian (the kind of Christian you think they should be) or constantly trying actively to convert them - this turns more people off anyway.

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

02-07-2008, 08:17 PM

don't you associate with your friends anymore? Were they friends or just fellow-Christians? I think there is a big difference. I have a few good friends and I know many fellow-Christians.
If this friend (or if I) had doubts, expressed that "I don't believe this anymore", I don't think our friendship would dissolve on the spot like butter on a griddle. I have friends that are not Christians. I love them as much as my Christian friends. Sure, there are differences in opinion, sometimes due to the faith issue but we can always disagree and still be friends.
More importantly, I don't think it's biblical to shun everyone who is not a Christian (the kind of Christian you think they should be) or constantly trying actively to convert them - this turns more people off anyway.

The complication is that I've moved many, many times. I adore my Christian friends and associate with them when it's possible to do so. But Biblically, they're really not allowed to even have dinner with me, and I hate hate hate to put anyone in the position where they feel uncomfortable. I also hate the idea of being on every prayer list every Wednesday night in every state of the Union, complete with the whole speculation part. :eek:

Some of my friends I can't be that frank with, because they know my parents. And the truth of what I believe/don't believe would wound my parents deeply. Horribly. And I won't do that. So I do avoid close, heart-to-heart speech with many of my old friends for this reason. The relationship becomes very shallow.

And if they have kids, there's a strong concern with their kids spending much time with my kids. I haven't changed my strong conservative rearing of small children, but people are sure that's not true.

Oh, and they were good friends, not simply fellow Christians.

There's a huge difference, IMO, in a former Christian and just your run of the mill non-Believer. I know that always and always, we (ok, I -- I shall speak to myself) were open to welcoming unbelievers. It was the proper thing to do. But a former believer, having explicitly rejected The Truth was subject to different rules.

cricket1178

02-07-2008, 08:37 PM

Liz CA

02-07-2008, 09:01 PM

There's a huge difference, IMO, in a former Christian and just your run of the mill non-Believer. I know that always and always, we (ok, I -- I shall speak to myself) were open to welcoming unbelievers. It was the proper thing to do. But a former believer, having explicitly rejected The Truth was subject to different rules.

your post just shows so clearly and sadly where so many churches go wrong, I had to laugh at the part with the prayer list - but again, UNFORTUNATELY, you depicted the scenario correctly. There are quite a few people I know who would react just that way but I cannot even imagine anyone telling me it would be wrong to have dinner with my friend - for whatever reason. Where in the Bible do they take that from? Never mind - I can figure it out. Misinterpretation causes the worst kind of behavior. It is my firm opinion it is better to err on the side of kindness, friendship and love than to possibly misinterpret something and cause so much harm. Ooops, was that preaching? Sorry.

Moving always makes keeping in contact more difficult. I faced it once, you mentioned multiple moves.
And I do understand your concern regarding hurting your parents. I couldn't agree with it more.

Karin

02-07-2008, 09:05 PM

.

So, from that, I was definitely finished with "church".

That really assisted me to step back anyway and realize how offensive I found it that my relationship and knowledge of God had to come to me from a man who preached or man (occasionally woman) who taught Sunday School. I can't even begin to tell you how many friends and family or associates I have who can't tell me what they believe without the defense of "that's what my pastor said". I believe God wants me to know him straight through him. It's more than possible; it's necessary.

I think the realization that SO many (if not nearly all) Christians in church are sheep. They don't think for themselves. They don't decide their beliefs for themselves. They believe what a preacher tells them and what snippets they read from the Bible (another can of worms). I started looking at the things I had been TOLD to believe and stepping back to say "What do I think about this?". ! LOL

I agree with so much of this! I believe that everyone is responsible to read and study for themselves. What they choose is their business, for better of for worse. What bothers me most is when people don't take the time to really think things through for themselves, whether it be spiritual (or not spiritual!) beliefs, politics, education, etc. I don't think that this type of acceptance of what other people say is limited to Christian churches, either. One of the things I like about this board is how many people here think!!! Perhaps not in every category--I find that I'm always finding new areas I haven't yet taken the time to think through because there are just so many of them that I think I could do this all my life and not be finished yet.

cricket1178

02-07-2008, 09:08 PM

I am so pleased that you know how to navigate socially and have a great circle of friends even though I have not figured this out yet. Which is what I thought I said in my first post. Everyone else seems to know how to do this and I don't and that makes me sad. For me, though, not for them. Good for others that they "get" how to do it.

I can totally relate. I am not good at social interaction, either. Most people who really get to know me, don't like me.:(

*anj*

02-07-2008, 09:16 PM

But Biblically, they're really not allowed to even have dinner with me, and I hate hate hate to put anyone in the position where they feel uncomfortable.

Pam,
Where does that come from? I don't know of anything like that in Scripture, unless it's a humanly instituted "tradition" that some church has chosen to burden people with.

Mekanamom

02-07-2008, 09:24 PM

I don't know about Pam's situation, but my former church does not want its members associating with "apostates". I think the reality in practice probably depends on the individuals involved, but the "issue" is there.

Mrs Mungo

02-07-2008, 09:32 PM

Pam,
Where does that come from? I don't know of anything like that in Scripture, unless it's a humanly instituted "tradition" that some church has chosen to burden people with.

While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

I'm not sure how anyone could read the above and then believe Christians shouldn't eat with non-Christians.

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

02-07-2008, 09:33 PM

Probably my own juxtaposition of Hebrews 10 and I Cor 5. And how "He who sets his hand to the plow and looks back is not fit for the Kingdom..." And how a person who is married to a non-believer is not bound in the marriage if the unbeliever wants out. As if they're not a real person, according to Paul.

I suspect I'm not correct here. :-) I smushed too much stuff together in my haste.

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

02-07-2008, 09:36 PM

PariSarah

02-07-2008, 09:45 PM

And how a person who is married to a non-believer is not bound in the marriage if the unbeliever wants out. As if they're not a real person, according to Paul.

:eek:

Sweetie, you are so getting Paul wrong.

(Um . . . picture that said in a loving tone?)

Paul explicitly says that the marriage is not binding because "it is to peace that you have been called." The believing spouse is being told to let the unbeliever go when the unbeliever wants it that way, not because the unbeliever doesn't count, but because she does. Paul would rather see a divorce than an unbeliever made miserable by a believing spouse who refuses to separate.

I would say the very opposite of what you said. In fact, this passage should scandalize Christians, b/c Paul is saying that acting with grace and love toward the unbeliever is more important that doing what's right according to the believer's standards. The personhood of the unbeliever is more important than the personal piety of the believer.

And then I'll just echo Mrs. Mungo's disbelief that anyone who reads the Bible can seriously believe that unbelievers are to be denied all table fellowship. Sure, it would be inappropriate to share Eucharist. But dinner? That one's clear as a bell.

Oh, and the 1 Cor 5 thing? Handing him over to Satan? Again, probably refers to being barred from the communal meal, not to shunning.

Amy in MS

02-07-2008, 09:56 PM

:eek:ARGH
I just wrote for half an hour and it didn't post.
Sorry.
Maybe I'll just keep it to myself.
Or, I'll try again tomorrow.
Amy

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

02-07-2008, 09:59 PM

:eek:

Sweetie, you are so getting Paul wrong.

(Um . . . picture that said in a loving tone?)

Paul explicitly says that the marriage is not binding because "it is to peace that you have been called." The believing spouse is being told to let the unbeliever go when the unbeliever wants it that way, not because the unbeliever doesn't count, but because she does. Paul would rather see a divorce than an unbeliever made miserable by a believing spouse who refuses to separate.

I would say the very opposite of what you said. In fact, this passage should scandalize Christians, b/c Paul is saying that acting with grace and love toward the unbeliever is more important that doing what's right according to the believer's standards. The personhood of the unbeliever is more important than the personal piety of the believer.

And then I'll just echo Mrs. Mungo's disbelief that anyone who reads the Bible can seriously believe that unbelievers are to be denied all table fellowship. Sure, it would be inappropriate to share Eucharist. But dinner? That one's clear as a bell.

Oh, and the 1 Cor 5 thing? Handing him over to Satan? Again, probably refers to being barred from the communal meal, not to shunning.

I think I used to know that. :) It does ring a big bell.

I was so afraid my husband would leave me (or rather want me to leave) when I left the faith -- one of the reasons I stuck around and pretended as long as I did -- that I think I invented a whole lot of horrifying stuff.

Someday I shall read it all again with different eyes. Meanwhile, methinks, I should simply be quiet. :cool:

Thanks for "getting" me, btw. You're a dear.

PinkInTheBlue

02-07-2008, 10:00 PM

Pam, it sounds like you and I would have so many things in common in all this. I too am limited in some of my relationships because there are many things I just couldn't deal with getting back to my family about. They are already putting us on all the prayers lists and 'tut-tut' shaking their heads about "not having those kids in church". I do still call myself a Christian but I am no longer a bible-believing, church attending, faithful few. I'm an independent thinking, God following, non-bible believing Christian. If my Daddy and his wife read that, they would very likely faint and definitely disown me. I can't discuss this with ANYONE in my life but my husband because he and I came to this thinking together through thinking, talking, reading, etc.

I feel like I really know what you are saying here.

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

02-07-2008, 10:05 PM

PariSarah

02-07-2008, 10:59 PM

. . . that I think I invented a whole lot of horrifying stuff.

I gather that your dear brothers and sisters in Christ . . . uh, "helped" you invent some of it.

*sigh*

Well, dearest, I'm sorry you had a bad day. I had a bit of a snarler myself. But I suddenly find myself more motivated to get my degree and get out there and teach.

And I just remembered I have ice cream, pretzels, and chocolate sauce in the kitchen. Join me for a snack?

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/eatdrink020.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

Laura Corin

02-07-2008, 11:58 PM

For me, it's like sewing. I like to sew, but I know some other sew-ers who are just jerks. Stuck up, snobs, show-offs, but I'd never quit sewing because of them.

But those sewers don't tell you and your children that if you don't do cross-stitch in the approved way then you are going to hell. And the day after that comment, you don't find them doing their cross-stitch backwards and pretending that they are still following the rules. And still condemning others to hell.

Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye,
But considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
--MATTHEW VII

It's the hypocrisy of many of the Christians I meet (I live in a missionary town, so I have opportunity to meet a lot) that drives me (further) away from organised religion. Why am I and my children shunned by many?

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
--Mark XII

Sewers one can take of leave: they profess no moral right to adjudicate on your life. My Christian neighbours are different. I respect enormously the principals underlying the Christian religion, including those that I have quoted here, but I just can't cope with the way that it is widely practised.

A few months ago the daughter of a friend of mine was not invited to a birthday party at her Christian school - it's the only English-language school in town. Every other girl in her class was invited. Only she, who doesn't go to church and who had already been told that she was going to hell by one of her classmates, was not invited. Can you see how this might drive my friend away from the church that could produce such people?

Best wishes and thanks for allowing me to talk,

Laura

cricket1178

02-08-2008, 12:28 AM

Pam,
Where does that come from? I don't know of anything like that in Scripture, unless it's a humanly instituted "tradition" that some church has chosen to burden people with.

I think she's getting this from 1 Cor. 5:11 where it says that a person calling themselves a believer but engages knowingly and willingly in continued sin. The Bible makes it clear that we are not to shun the world. Anyway, just thought I'd share that.

I completely understand what everyone is saying about being told how to live your life. I think it comes from well meaning individuals and I try very hard to remember that we are all just people doing the best we can.:)

JWSJ

02-08-2008, 12:42 AM

I met an atheist once who called people who follow the crowd, or follow someone's teachings without thinking for themselves "sheeple". :)

Also known as "The Herd".

Liz CA

02-08-2008, 12:55 AM

:eek:

Sweetie, you are so getting Paul wrong.

(Um . . . picture that said in a loving tone?)

And then I'll just echo Mrs. Mungo's disbelief that anyone who reads the Bible can seriously believe that unbelievers are to be denied all table fellowship. Sure, it would be inappropriate to share Eucharist. But dinner? That one's clear as a bell.

Oh, and the 1 Cor 5 thing? Handing him over to Satan? Again, probably refers to being barred from the communal meal, not to shunning.

I would have exactly said that!
Amen! Go Sarah, go!

OnTheBrink

02-08-2008, 12:58 AM

But those sewers don't tell you and your children that if you don't do cross-stitch in the approved way then you are going to hell. And the day after that comment, you don't find them doing their cross-stitch backwards and pretending that they are still following the rules. And still condemning others to hell.

Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye,
But considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
--MATTHEW VII

It's the hypocrisy of many of the Christians I meet (I live in a missionary town, so I have opportunity to meet a lot) that drives me (further) away from organised religion. Why am I and my children shunned by many?

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
--Mark XII

Sewers one can take of leave: they profess no moral right to adjudicate on your life. My Christian neighbours are different. I respect enormously the principals underlying the Christian religion, including those that I have quoted here, but I just can't cope with the way that it is widely practised.

A few months ago the daughter of a friend of mine was not invited to a birthday party at her Christian school - it's the only English-language school in town. Every other girl in her class was invited. Only she, who doesn't go to church and who had already been told that she was going to hell by one of her classmates, was not invited. Can you see how this might drive my friend away from the church that could produce such people?

Best wishes and thanks for allowing me to talk,

Laura

I have to say, I'm totally flabbergasted at the treatment many on this thread have received from "Christians." Seriously. I'm not naive, or sheltered, or special, but if someone at my church treated people the way I've seen described here, they'd be taken to task over it, and quite seriously. I'm shocked and deeply saddened by this. It's not what Christianity is supposed to be. Children condemning other children to hell? Blows my mind. I can tell you, if my daughter ever said such a thing to anyone, well, let's just say the consequences would be swift and serious. And, I am sure I can speak for every single one of my friends that they'd do the same.

I appreciate the honesty everyone has given.

Liz CA

02-08-2008, 01:01 AM

Liz CA

02-08-2008, 01:10 AM

I have to say, I'm totally flabbergasted at the treatment many on this thread have received from "Christians." Seriously. I'm not naive, or sheltered, or special, but if someone at my church treated people the way I've seen described here, they'd be taken to task over it, and quite seriously. I'm shocked and deeply saddened by this. It's not what Christianity is supposed to be. Children condemning other children to hell? Blows my mind. I can tell you, if my daughter ever said such a thing to anyone, well, let's just say the consequences would be swift and serious. And, I am sure I can speak for every single one of my friends that they'd do the same.

I appreciate the honesty everyone has given.

fortunate and blessed to never have had a bad church experience. We have changed churches a few times and have finally found one that is a good fit.

While I would not say I have experienced church abuse to the extent described by some in this thread, my bil and sil have been through the wringer. I cringe everytime I remember it. Ouch - Cringe!
Thank God, he does not make salvation dependent on church membership.

Peek a Boo

02-08-2008, 01:15 AM

I'm pretty much on the same bench as j.griff :-)
We attend a MS Lutheran church cuz that's how dh was raised and what he wants right now. I attend with him and point out things here and there, lol. i attend the fundamental fire n brimstone baptist church behind us when dh is outta town. i like bits and pieces from both.

I can offer that a couple of my best friends are NOT Christian, so here's holding out some hope Pam that you can still meet someone in the tribe you are accustomed to that will sit back and smoke a peace pipe w/ ya :)
PariSarah spelled it out well.

and toni --all i can offer about the abortion clinics is that you look in the phone book under abortion alternatives. there are quite a few of us that volunteer tons of time at crisis pregnancy clinics and open our homes to young women who need a safe place to stay. Just as you encounter extremes that shape your opinion, I too encounter the extreme side that performs an abortion, shoves some painkiller in their hand, and moves on to the next paycheck. The "I've had one before and I'd have one again just to piss you off" kind of thinking. And most reasonable people realize those extremes are NOT widespread.

Scarlett --excellent point! I whole-heartedly agree......"'If everyone I love was suddenly dead, would I still be worshipping this way?"

Cathy in IL

02-08-2008, 01:43 AM

I am a Bible believing Christian. I have been in churches that frustrate me terribly. I had a time recently when I seriously questioned whether or not I could find a church where my family fit. My son's peanut allergy and medical issues made it hard to participate. One church just couldn't handle his allergy, so he was excluded from the children's activities. Other churches disappointed me because when my little guy was very sick in the hospital, no one would even seem to notice we had been gone. No one seemed to remember that he had been in the church bulletine as a prayer request. were they even praying if they didn't remember? I was extremely discouraged and disappointed in people, but even if I had not found a church to be a part of t would not have changed my beliefs. What people do or fail to do will not change my beliefs. After all, I believe that the Bible says we are all sinners. I believe the Bible says that we will have trouble in this world. I can't say I believe that and expect people to behave in sinless ways. I could have never found a church that fit my family, but I would have still been a Christian because of my beliefs.

I am thankful that I have found a church that embraces my family. Instead of being like some churches that have essentially said, "You chose to adopt special needs kids as a single, don't expect us to be inconvenienced or step up and help," this church has been different. They accomodate my children. They call to see how we are. They come along on hospital visits to help make it easier. I could go on, but the point is I have found a church that tries to do more than preach on Sundays. It's a great thing to have found, but even if I had not, my beliefs and relationship with God would have still stayed strong because it isn't based on people.

I do appreciate the posts on this thread. I try to teach my children that people are people deserving of respect and friendship even if they have a different belief system. I love that being in a big city allows me to expose my kids to all kinds of people. I don't want them to be afraid of people who are different than them or believe differently than them.

Volty

02-08-2008, 06:38 AM

Wow, what an amazing thread. You ladies all impress me with your sincerity and willing to open up and share some very personal things that you can't even share with close friends/family at home. And even when you disagree, you do it with class and dignity.

Me, I was raised Catholic, then had a brief fling with a fundamentalist church doing military ministry when I was 18 and in the Army away from home for the first time. I hated my job, I hated the Army, (loved Germany though). I was miserable but they were there and nice and I felt the fellowship of the community and the love. Unfortunatly, it didn't make any sense, it was very judgemental, very strict, and I didn't appreciate the anti-Catholic rhetoric. It was stupid, it was clingy, I felt I had to leave my brain at the door. I was trapped in this uber-Chrstian near-cult. So after a few months of being happy with them, I was miserable with them too. I liked the people, I just didn't beleive like they did and I felt emotionally trapped.

This was 1991. Mercifully, I was reasigned to a unit deploying for the Gulf War. So I got out of that situation, so I was a bitter atheist for the first time just as I was putting my teenage life on the line to chase Saddam out of Kuwait. Obviously I came back from the war OK, but was still an angry atheist with an axe to grind.

So when I got out of the Army, I moved back in with my mom and went back to Catholic church mostly because I didn't want to disappoint her. Ah but it just never stuck. I never could make sense of it all any more. Looking back at my Catholic days as a kid, even then I had doubts. They just exploded in my run in with the evangelicals. Too many discrepencies, too many contradictions in the Bible. Prayers never seemed to help. I was really bitter and disillusioned with it all for a long time.

SO now I was in colege using my GI BIll money. While there I had a run in with some Unitarian Universalistss, had a great conversation, I had to really be in top form thinking and discussing things. It really inspired/impressed me. Religious folks as smart as me with a whole different approach to things. To Catholics, all protestants are the same- 1001 flavors of belief, who knows the difference or who cares?

UUs were something different though. So when I left mama's house to go to go to medical school. I checked them out. What a community of brilliant people, I fit in like a glove. I was so happy there. Three was no creed or doctrine. The talks were mostly led by the congregation and we had a rich depth of people to lead. It felt like a college class and many members were university professors. I liked the community and the fellowship and the friends.

And I came to peace with those years of resentment that I had towards the fundies and Christianity in general that made me so bitter. But I flunked out of medical school and landed back with my mom. Started substitute teaching and was back to being misrable. I had used up my GI Bill money for undergrad and the medical school bills were paid with student loans that I had no hope of repaying. So to flee the creditors I came to China and have been here for six years.

No church anymore, still agnostic, but really at peace with my beliefs (or lack thereof) and when I think about it like today, really missing that UU church.

cricket1178

02-08-2008, 07:01 AM

and toni --all i can offer about the abortion clinics is that you look in the phone book under abortion alternatives. there are quite a few of us that volunteer tons of time at crisis pregnancy clinics and open our homes to young women who need a safe place to stay.

Peek a Boo, there are many at my church who do the same. I think just about every family in my church would not only take in the mothers during their pregnancy, but would also give them shelter after the birth, help take care of their baby, and teach them to fish not just give them fish.

Kelli in TN

02-08-2008, 11:01 AM

Peek a Boo, there are many at my church who do the same. I think just about every family in my church would not only take in the mothers during their pregnancy, but would also give them shelter after the birth, help take care of their baby, and teach them to fish not just give them fish.

I prepared to do this last summer. My oldest daughter befriended a girl at work who already had two children (different fathers) and one on the way. The girl had little family to count on, no vehicle, never enough money. My daughter transported her, my two teen girls together bought Christmas for her daughters and I offered to let the whole gang live here for the summer and take care of the mom (she was to have a c-sec) while she recovered from the birth.

Ultimately she did not take us up on the offer, but it was a sincere offer, I would have taken care of her, her baby, and her two preschool children while she got back on her feet.

It never occurred to me not to help.

OnTheBrink

02-08-2008, 11:12 AM

I have never started a thread that went to 9 pages. Can I have a cookie? :D

GothicGyrl

02-08-2008, 11:20 AM

And Kelli, you, Peek, and Cricket, would be very big rareties. Peek, your example of the "extreme other side" is just that--way too extreme to be taken seriously. Far more people get abortions for reasons other than "because I can". The stats prove this.

There simply is no "teach them to fish" mentality here. None. It's like the water bottle ministry my former church had. Someone thought that buying bottles of water, with labels made with church information, and standing out on a major highway to pass them out for free, was a good thing. One time though, someone came in to the church because of this bottle thing. He left within two weeks because all he got was a "thanks for coming" and then he hears "See!! The ministry works!", which is a load of bull.

I'm not doubting you three at all. But you three are lost to the statistics. It just does not happen.

DB in NJ

02-08-2008, 11:42 AM

Great question!

I haven't read all of the replies, so pardon me if this has already been brought up.

As a Christian, I will say that there are people "on my side" (so to speak) who I wish weren't. When a well-known Christian brings disgrace on himself (or herself) it is a bad mark against all Christians. Fair or unfair, that's just how it is.

I've heard time and again people say that Christians are "hypocrites" based on the actions of one or two prominent believers (i.e. televangelists). The problem with this thinking is that these people are putting their trust and hopes and faith into other PEOPLE instead of in the Lord.

People will let us down. There is no escaping that.

I agree with the OP that there is nothing a fellow believer could do that would change my faith. Because it's personal; between me and the Lord. And He has never let me down. I don't see things as He does, so sometimes I wish things were different. But I trust Him to know better.

I'm rambling now. Sorry!! :)

*anj*

02-08-2008, 11:47 AM

And Kelli, you, Peek, and Cricket, would be very big rareties. Peek, your example of the "extreme other side" is just that--way too extreme to be taken seriously.

I'm not doubting you three at all. But you three are lost to the statistics. It just does not happen.

Toni,
With all due respect (don't you love it when someone starts out with that phrase?), but really....
I understand that you have had a bad experience. I really do. But can you grant that maybe your experience is atypical? Can you fathom that there might indeed be many Christians who would be willing to help out in a situation like this? Is it possible that some Christians may truly be unable to open their homes in this way? And are you saying that because they cannot open their homes they should not encourage women not to abort?

What statistics are you talking about above?

*anj*

02-08-2008, 11:50 AM

I am a Bible believing Christian....

I was extremely discouraged and disappointed in people, but even if I had not found a church to be a part of t would not have changed my beliefs. What people do or fail to do will not change my beliefs. After all, I believe that the Bible says we are all sinners. I believe the Bible says that we will have trouble in this world. I can't say I believe that and expect people to behave in sinless ways. I could have never found a church that fit my family, but I would have still been a Christian because of my beliefs.

It's a great thing to have found, but even if I had not, my beliefs and relationship with God would have still stayed strong because it isn't based on people.

Cathy,
Thank you so much for saying this. You spoke my thoughts far more eloquently than I could have.

Grace is Sufficient

02-08-2008, 12:12 PM

I was interested enough to read the whole thread (so far) and the general tone of the posts struck me as somewhat ironic. A fair amount of vitriol was dripping from the 'tolerant' toward those who had disagreed with them or made them feel unwelcome, while those brave few willing to represent the 'intolerant' side seemed, well, tolerant.

Peek a Boo

02-08-2008, 12:14 PM

anj-- you're right of course. Those of us who are willing to help simply AREN't that much of a rarity. We just don't get utilized as much as we offer. Since so many choose abortion over continuing the pregnancy, then "stats support" that the option we offer doesn't get utilized. Unfortunately stats also support that most abortions ARE for convenience. Justified convenience? sure. But It's still convenience as opposed to life or death. Unfortunately it's *always* a life or death choice for the one that can't speak up.

toni-- your examples are extremes too! of course you've seen them --so have we. When you see people who DO live by those extremes it's hard to imagine a sensible option exists. But they do. And they are far more widespread than you suggest and certainly not lost to statistics :-)

I really didn't want to turn this into an abortion debate [altho i can certainly do that too, lol], but DID want to point out that when you lay a blanket extreme sterotype on ANY situation you are checking your brains at the "submit" key. If you can recognize an extreme scenario that i provide you need to be ready to recognize the extreme example YOU provide. regardless the topic.

Peek a Boo

02-08-2008, 12:17 PM

toni-- i wanted to grab one thing you said since we were posting at the same time, hee hee.

what I have found is that there are far more girls who still would abort becuase even with help they simply don't want the challenges that would come w/ facing their family. No matter how much help is offered, a lot of people still won't take it.

cricket1178

02-08-2008, 12:20 PM

There simply is no "teach them to fish" mentality here. None. It's like the water bottle ministry my former church had. Someone thought that buying bottles of water, with labels made with church information, and standing out on a major highway to pass them out for free, was a good thing. One time though, someone came in to the church because of this bottle thing. He left within two weeks because all he got was a "thanks for coming" and then he hears "See!! The ministry works!", which is a load of bull.

I'm not doubting you three at all. But you three are lost to the statistics. It just does not happen.

Sadly, I would have to say you are right. But, I do believe there are churches who are finely "getting it". It is not about how big your congregation is, it is about the purpose of the Lord fullfilled in the earth; and that takes discipleship. Teaching people "how" to fish is discipleship. I'm praying that the discipleship message gets out to believers.

GothicGyrl

02-08-2008, 12:27 PM

you're right of course. Those of us who are willing to help simply AREN't that much of a rarity. We just don't get utilized as much as we offer. Since so many choose abortion over continuing the pregnancy, then "stats support" that the option we offer doesn't get utilized. Unfortunately stats also support that most abortions ARE for convenience. Justified convenience? sure. But It's still convenience as opposed to life or death. Unfortunately it's *always* a life or death choice for the one that can't speak up.

Peekie boo-boo--I think this is where we are crossing hairs. "You guys" ARE a rarity, whether you believe it or not, but it would be splitting hairs to try and determine whether that rarity is because people choose the "other" option or they just don't know you exsist. You don't walk in to a church (at least not someone who's considering abortion) and say "Hey I wanna kill my baby. Who wants to convince me to keep it". That's the extreme side, yes.

But, even on the non-extreme side, those that do find an alter-resource, don't get "here is a family who can take you in during your pregnancy and help you out, if you don't really want that abortion or adoption". No, everywhere you go it's either adoption, abortion or "tough luck you are on your own". There is no happy medium (that medium being "you guys" who open up your homes).

And here's why I believe this-- it would not be prudent on the church's part or Planned Parenthood, or even Welfare's part to say "here is a complete stranger who is willing to let you live with them for 3 months while you give birth to this unwanted child, try to get a job right after giving birth and give you a roof over your head. Oh, and all of this must be done within 3 months then you are out on your rear end. Oh, and they are only doing this so you don't "kill" your baby, they don't really care about you, they just don't want you to kill your baby".

Are YOU or Kelli, or anyone else saying this? No, I don't believe that at all. And I don't believe you'd think like that. But that's what the state agencies would be thinking and that would be the reason why you, kelli and others are not being offered up as "roofs over their heads". It's just too much of a risk, hassle and otherwise a pain in the butt for them. And to be quite honest, even if you remove the religious tone out of that statement, I wouldn't do it anyway, it's too much trouble for me (the me being a mom who is considering abortion). It's just not worth all of that trouble.

NOW--if your church actually stepped up and out and said "Listen we don't want you to abort, so we are not only offering you shelter, clothing and food, free, we are also going to teach you how to care for that child, help you get a job, get off drugs, get back in to school, etc........... and all you have to do in return, is not abort" --then I wouldn't be so angry about it.

But very few, if any, CHURCHES, do this. Individuals like yourself, maybe. But the actual church, who should be stepping up and doing this anyway, no.

But there are always strings attached (and not aborting in return for the above isn't a string..you know what I am talking about) and those strings are not good.

My whole point in mentioning anything I did, lest anyone think I want to make this all about one thing, is that the TRUE meaning of ministry has been lost. It's all a numbers game now and no actually ministering is occuring. If the church could get back to the true meaning of "minister", we might not have so many disgruntled people.

Bess

02-08-2008, 12:37 PM

To answer a question that was brought up about not eating with those professed christians who are living in sin, here are the verses pertaining to that:

1Cr 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

1Cr 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1Cr 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

LisaNY

02-08-2008, 12:40 PM

I am pretty sure I am confused, but (Pam) are you coming from an "I AM a Christian" or "I think I am" or "I was but now I'm just searching" or something else?

Because your last statement the one about not being able to understand how we socialize outside of church, is what brought my "thank you very much" on. It came across as a "I can't fathom any other way so they must not be getting any if they aren't getting it from church".

And I'm also not sure why the venom in your post towards my response to you as I was just answering what I perceived that statement to mean.

So what did I do wrong now?

I think Pam was speaking about her own dilemma in finding herself outside of the Church, the only social group she knew. I think she was speaking specifically about her own problem as to how to find friends, in general, when you don't go somewhere (Church, in her case) where you meet/fellowship with people on a regular basis.

Edit: (Love this feature) - nevermind - I see it was all worked out.

*anj*

02-08-2008, 12:54 PM

anj--please re-read my post and don't assume that I didn't take in to consideration that there are people like those 3 who will do this.

One thing I want to correct in my post was the stats, I was typing without thinking about what I was trying to say--Peek is right that 93% of them are for "social" reasons (unwanted, etc...) so that I have to correct.

Okay, I'm glad to hear that.

But the "stats" (that is, based on experiences of people who've tried to get said help Peek, Kelli speak of) say that the help just isn't there.

My experience is not atypical and you know that. You know that there are more "mean ones" out there than "nice ones". It may not be your church, or Peek's or Kelli's, but they are there and more frequent than you nice ones. And, see above.

I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who has tried to get help, but was unable to do so. I can also say that if any woman came to me and was in need of help I would be willing to help and I could also point her toward at least three (privately run) agencies off the top of my head.

I also have to say that I don't know whether or not your situation is atypical. I cannot say that there are more "mean ones" than "nice ones." Truly, truly that has not been my experience. Have I known "Christians" who weren't especially "nice"? Of course. But I have also known non-Christians who weren't nice either. I think that is what Cathy was saying above. There is good and bad in everyone, and yes, even professing Christians fall short of the glory of God. I fall short every single day, but I know that God is so much bigger than I am, and that He can work in the human heart despite my failings.

Yes, I will stand up and stand my ground and say YES. If you can't put your money where your mouth is, shut up

I agree with you here. And thanks for clarifying that you weren't talking only about physical assistance, but financial as well. I'm also going to thank you because I just realized that there is more that my dh and I can do to help support this cause. We've been giving on an "as needed" basis, but we could do more. Thanks for that challenge.

This thread isn't about abortion though...

From our LEADER, who stood on the corner right next to the clinic "I don't have time or funds to help them. I'm just glad they didn't abort"....

This pisses me off, Anj. Sorry. you don't have the time and funds to help them survive, but you'll drive your big honkin' over priced SUV through traffic, cause multiple traffic jams with your protest, practically get arrested, assault two nurses and you count this as a "win"?

True. All true. Not good. And this is what frustrates so many of us, because that behavior defames Christians, churches, and most importantly, the name of Christ Himself.

6packofun

02-08-2008, 01:05 PM

Sorry, Grace, that's just not true and you know it. It is a very typical response though, to those of us who don't believe or have changed our beliefs, for others to say we are actually the "intolerant" ones.

Please don't do this because you know it isn't true. At least not in this thread. Of course those of us who have stepped aside have some anger and "vitriol" "dripping" from us--did you expect to take getting kicked repeatedly with a smile on our face?

I won't and I don't.

Why so abrasive and, quite honestly, contradicting? This emotional posting leads to a major lack of clarity. You're *telling someone* that their opinion on the situation isn't true, "don't do this" because it's inaccurate and then you confirm that yes, you are dripping with anger. OK. No one HERE is kicking you repeatedly, are they?

Bummer. I really want to hear why those who no longer embrace Christianity (or any religion) have chosen not to, but all the angry flustering and back and forth leaves those of us who do care wondering whether you've really even thought it through intellectually or if you are only reacting. What in your life is going to give you peace about being offended or hurt, if your faith can't?

I think that the idea of intolerance comes in when someone has reached the point that they feel people "make" them choose how to live out their faith--or NOT live out faith at all--when it's not a power someone can truly have over them. Creating victimizers where there are none, through unfair generalizations, is pretty intolerant, isn't it?

cricket1178

02-08-2008, 01:06 PM

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

02-08-2008, 01:10 PM

I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who has tried to get help, but was unable to do so. I can also say that if any woman came to me and was in need of help I would be willing to help and I could also point her toward at least three (privately run) agencies off the top of my head.

Way back when... well, in my true believer days, an acquaintance of my dh's and mine got an abortion. She felt this was her only option. After offering to adopt the kid if she'd just have it -- and we surely would have -- I didn't just turn my back and condemn this woman. How can you? I drove her home from the PP clinic, lobbing nary a dirty look nor hand grenade in the general direction of the doctors and nurses there, set up meals for a couple of days, and took her 2 y/o to our house for three nights so she could recover in peace. We were on call to come over immediately should she need anything.

I don't think I was particularly remarkable or exceptional, not in my circle of fundamentalist friends, anyhow. I think any of the families in my church and in like-minded churches would have helped an individual in need, or found practical help for her and facilitated this help.

Life isn't always neat and tidy and perfect. And she without sin can just pick up that stone to cast. (Not.)

Maybe we would have had a different attitude if we'd have owned an SUV, I dunno. ;)

LisaNY

02-08-2008, 01:14 PM

Most of the discussion has been centered on the behavior of others, but very little on the behavior of the One who began it all. As Cathy shared, people will fail us, but that should not determine our loyalty to Jesus (Yeshua).

I did not become a believer to be part of an earthly organization. I became a believer to be part of the Kingdom of G-d. I'm going to serve Him, and Him alone. I think of the persecuted believers in other parts of the world that are killed, jailed, and have countless other things done to them. I think in many ways they are more blessed than we are here in America. They know what it means to serve Him, and Him alone. They know what it means to truly lay down their lives for the One Who gave His life for them.

Yeshua Himself was betrayed by His brothers, but that did not sway Him from doing what His Abba had called Him to do.

We need to remind ourselves of why we came to faith in the first place. I would hope it was because you took hold of the One who took hold of you by giving His life for you. Men will fail you, and hurt you, etc., but why would that stop you from purposing to serve Him, no matter what man may do to you (even when men do horrible things in His name)?

j.griff

02-08-2008, 01:15 PM

My whole point in mentioning anything I did, lest anyone think I want to make this all about one thing, is that the TRUE meaning of ministry has been lost. It's all a numbers game now and no actually ministering is occuring. If the church could get back to the true meaning of "minister", we might not have so many disgruntled people.

ITA with that. Now, I must say though ( I am not Catholic) that the Catholic Church seems to do WAY more ministering to those in need than any other church I've seen. I am sure there are some exceptions to this, I'm sure that in some place (maybe even here) there may be a small protestant church that puts mininstering to others above the "needs" of the congregation for new carpet or a bigger parking lot or VBS... but that's just not the norm, IME. :( :mad:

mellifera

02-08-2008, 01:18 PM

My whole point in mentioning anything I did, lest anyone think I want to make this all about one thing, is that the TRUE meaning of ministry has been lost. It's all a numbers game now and no actually ministering is occuring. If the church could get back to the true meaning of "minister", we might not have so many disgruntled people.

Amen!:D I am a Christian, and I have noticed this. Christianity calls for love, for sacrifice, for discipline. To truly live in a Christ-like manner is hard! er - make that impossible. We are human. He is divine. But that is no excuse for the behavior that goes on in many churches. There are churches that do the things GothicGyrl would like to see them do. Unfortunately there aren't as many of them as there should be. And, the other unfortunate thing is, the negative experiences/examples are remembered much clearer and for longer than the positive ones.

*anj*

02-08-2008, 01:18 PM

I don't think I was particularly remarkable or exceptional, not in my circle of fundamentalist friends, anyhow. I think any of the families in my church and in like-minded churches would have helped an individual in need, or found practical help for her and facilitated this help.

Life isn't always neat and tidy and perfect. And she without sin can just pick up that stone to cast. (Not.)

Maybe we would have had a different attitude if we'd have owned an SUV, I dunno. ;)

Thank you for saying this. Life isn't always neat and tidy and perfect. And we're better off for it...makes things more interesting.
There have been at least 5 cases in our extended family where young girls got pregnant. A couple of them were really young, like 14. Dh and I offered to adopt the children, we offered assistance to the moms as well. No one ever took us up on it, but we would've. For Pete's sake, every time I see a news story about an infant found in a trash dumpster I say "okay, let's go get him, we'll raise that baby." And I would, but they always end up finding a home for the baby. We don't plan to have any more babies of our own, but we've never completely ruled out the possibility of bringing another baby into our family.

And we don't own an SUV either. :p

Peek a Boo

02-08-2008, 01:20 PM

Thanks Pam --that was pretty much my point. There ARE venues of help, but people make up their minds for reasons other than availability of help: The lack of options isn't the problem. And we see that mentaility in areas other than just abortion.

and I don't own an SUV ;)

Scarlett

02-08-2008, 01:30 PM

The money thing in religion is pretty sickening. And the hypocrisy.

Defining hypocrisy can be tricky though. Many people feel that if a person is advocating following the teachings of Christ and that person errs in some way that they are hypocritical. That is just not true. It takes more than that to be hypocritical. I've had someone very close to me carry on a double life for several years----it was a very very painful time for me, BUT it did not shake my faith. It did not shake my confidence in my organized religion. I felt sickened that he seemed to be bringing so much shame on us all, and 'getting away' with horrible behavior because he just kept lying about it, but I still felt it was all him. Eventually, it was all out in the open, the double life was over, my relationship with him was effectively over, and life goes on. HE was a hypocrite.

The money thing is another telling thing for me. It takes money to live, for sure. But you should ask yourself, is any one person or any group of people in this organization getting rich here? Because that is a telling sign. Religion is not or should not be about money. Jesus said, 'you receive free give free.'

Anyway, if you are in any organization and you disagree with any of the doctrines or major policies...then you should get out. If you are unsure of things, then pray to God for answers. He answers those with a sincere heart.

Grace is Sufficient

02-08-2008, 01:31 PM

I'm not that good at quoting, esp. with the new format, but I'll try the old cut-n-paste method... excuse the lack of attribution:

quote
For me, it boils down to: I prefer company where I'm not always defending myself, not having to listen to bigoted, hatefilled discussions about how everyone is going to hell for not following your breed of faith, etc
end quote

I only saw that kind of anger on one side of the discussion. I'd venture to guess, in fact, that the most unkind comment from the other side was mine pointing it out...

Perhaps I shouldn't have, then.

j.griff

02-08-2008, 01:40 PM

I only saw that kind of anger on one side of the discussion. I'd venture to guess, in fact, that the most unkind comment from the other side was mine pointing it out...

Perhaps I shouldn't have, then.

GG wasn't talking about this type of angry discussion occuring within this thread, she is speaking of this type of thing happening out in the real world, with real "christians" who behave in this manner. It is EASY to judge people, and condemn them to hell because you don't see them as being good enough. It is EASY to place judgement on someone else because of their words. It takes more Thought, more LOVE, more time, and more work to step back and empathize/sympathize with what someone is saying. This thread is not supposed to be an "us vs. them" thread- and I am saddened by the judgements I see coming from the supposedly "good side". :( People who have been offended by Christians have every right to be angry, and they have every right to express themselves here without the need for insults.
I am NOT writing this with a bitter tone, I am writing this with a sad tone.

Homeschoolmomto2boys

02-08-2008, 01:40 PM

GG, you said:
"I do quite well, thank you very much. Which is another reason I chose to back away from Christianity. I am tired of all the restrictions and the assumptions that I must be one way and only one way and I can't possibly be a Christian if I'm not that way (to stress, I realize YOU didn't say this). Which is why I do quite well. I am not limited to "only" Church, I go ALL over, to many places some here would drive by crossing themselves. :) I go clubbing, I drink, I socialize with my friends, I get out of the house all the time. Church is not the end all be all of socialization and because I realize that.."

I'm new to the forum, so I realize that you don't "know" me at all. This thread caught my attention, however, and I wanted to just address some of the posts. I haven't read very many of the responses, so forgive me if this has already been pointed out.

I'm sorry that Christians have left such a bad taste in your mouth. Your response to the way you've been treated is to "back away" from Christianity. This is because so many people today have been sold a bill of goods that will lead to that.

Becoming a Christian is not about what's in it for you. (Or me, or anyone else.) It begins with a realization that one has offended a Holy God with our sin.
When we see ourselves through God's eyes, see how we are separated from Him because of our offense against Him, it becomes a question of how we can rectify that gap. Not a question of how we can make Christians act the way we want, or why Christians don't measure up. Christianity is not a "club" that we join and leave if the members disappoint.
Salvation is between you and God. It's realizing that you are a sinner with no hope of reconciliation with God unless your sins are forgiven.

How does one receive that forgiveness? By repenting of our sin (turning from it and to God) receiving Jesus' work on the cross as payment for sin, (the Bible says that without the shedding of blood there's no forgiveness of sin) and giving our entire selves to Him to lead and direct as He sees fit.

When looked at that way, there's no reason to "back away" from Christianity because it's no longer about you and your disappointments. It's about realizing that you have the choice of living with God in heaven or being separated from Him.

God Bless!

Scarlett

02-08-2008, 01:41 PM

[QUOTE=Peek a Boo;41901]There ARE venues of help, but people make up their minds for reasons other than availability of help: The lack of options isn't the problem. And we see that mentaility in areas other than just abortion./QUOTE]

Very true. Because if people really wanted help when an unborn baby is unwanted, they could get it. And adoption would be an option. I worked with a girl years ago, who was pregnant and planning an abortion. Several of us, BEGGED her not to do it. We BEGGED her to let us have the baby. I can still see her face plain as day saying, 'oh I could never give a child of mine up for adoption.' She had already had 4 abortions. She also had one toddler....so I can't imagine that she was some poor girl who didn't really know what she was doing when she had the abortion.(or got pregnant out of wedlock multiple times either). It pains me to think of to this day.

I also have a very close friend who after 20 years of friendship confided to me that she had had an abortion when she was 18---in part because her parents pressured her into it. She has been tortured all of these years by what she did. My heart just aches for her.

I don't buy the argument that we can't stand up for what is right unless we have the instant solution to every situation someone has gotten themselves in. It is never wrong to do the right thing. It is never right to do the wrong thing.

I don't own an SUV either. :p But I wouldn't be picketing abortion clinics if I did. Surely, I wouldn't be bombing it. Or throwing blood on the doctors. I think those people are extreme. And take away from the actual issue instead of adding to it.

j.griff

02-08-2008, 01:41 PM

Why do you insist on calling that anger when in fact, it is flat out truth? Those are the reasons for me not being on your side and as I told 6pack above, that you choose not to see them as valid is your problem, not mine and doesn't make my reasons any less.

In fact, it only stands to prove my points--"your side" refuses to see any valid reason for us not joining you and therefore you choose to call US the ones who are angry and "intolerant". It's called Passing the Buck and you are practicing it right now.

And it doesn't woo people to the Christian faith, it's one of those things that pushes people away from Christianity. It's not good witness, period. :(

Kelli in TN

02-08-2008, 01:42 PM

Scarlett,
Your posts reminds me of a song I like an awful lot...

"Is this one for the people? Is this one for the Lord?
Or do I simply serenade for things I must afford?
You can jumble them together, my conflict still remains
Holiness is calling, in the midst of courting fame
Cause I see the trust in their eyes
Though the sky is falling
They need Your love in their lives
Compromise is calling

What if I stumble, what if I fall?
What if I lose my step and I make fools of us all?
Will the love continue when my walk becomes a crawl?
What if I stumble, and what if I fall?

What if I stumble, what if I fall?
You never turn in the heat of it all
What if I stumble, what if I fall?

Father please forgive me for I can not compose
The fear that lives within me
Or the rate at which it grows
If struggle has a purpose on the narrow road you've carved
Why do I dread my trespasses will leave a deadly scar
Do they see the fear in my eyes? Are they so revealing?
This time I cannot disguise all the doubt I'm feeling"

DC Talk

I can't answer all the questions brought up here and in truth I did not read all of the back and forth because I could not see it being fruitful. But I know that as a Christian I am being watched. My kids are watching, my family members are watching, my church family is watching, the cashier at Kroger is watching.....am I authentic? Am I real? Do I really believe this stuff? Does it show in my life? Can I give an answer for the hope that lies within me? Does hope really lie within me? Do I care about someone else's suffering more than I care about my comfort?

I fall so short, I fall so short. When I really think about it I am undone.

Tami

02-08-2008, 01:48 PM

Frankly, people of all faiths, or no faith at all, are....well....fallen and HUMAN. Sadly, Christian churches are full of people who aren't perfect, and who sin.

I've often wondered at those who point the finger at Christians who are "hypocrites." Specifically, wondering if they could convert and show us all how to be the perfect Christians. ;)

I think that there is a call for humility here, and a recognition that none of us can live the perfect life that Jesus lived. We as Christians will always fail to live up to that ideal, because we are not God.

At the same time, I know countless people whose lives have been changed by God's grace. If you think they are bad as Christians, and count them hypocrites, you should have seen them PRE-Christian. Many of us were drug addicts, living extremely immoral lives and worse. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, knowing that sanctification and change is a life-long process.

I have never know a single person whose sin issues were *worse* after true Christian conversion. One must also remember that only God knows who is truly and authentic Christian. A "hypocrite" may indeed be a false convert. In fact, maybe many are - but I am not qualified to judge that. Only God knows!

Carol in Cal.

02-08-2008, 01:53 PM

NOW--if your church actually stepped up and out and said "Listen we don't want you to abort, so we are not only offering you shelter, clothing and food, free, we are also going to teach you how to care for that child, help you get a job, get off drugs, get back in to school, etc........... and all you have to do in return, is not abort" --then I wouldn't be so angry about it.

But very few, if any, CHURCHES, do this. Individuals like yourself, maybe. But the actual church, who should be stepping up and doing this anyway, no.

But there are always strings attached (and not aborting in return for the above isn't a string..you know what I am talking about) and those strings are not good.

My whole point in mentioning anything I did, lest anyone think I want to make this all about one thing, is that the TRUE meaning of ministry has been lost. It's all a numbers game now and no actually ministering is occuring. If the church could get back to the true meaning of "minister", we might not have so many disgruntled people.

What you are missing is one of the key teachings of Christ about charitable work--which is that it is to be done discreetly. Christ was very sarcastic about those who show off when they fast, or pray, or give alms. He said, "They have their reward," meaning that their reward is an earthly good reputation. Then He said, "But when YOU fast, anoint your head and wash..." i.e. don't make it so obvious and pathetic. And He goes on to say that "Your Heavenly Father, Who sees in secret will reward you in secret."

So. I'm really torn here. Because of this passage, I feel very reserved about telling you what Christians do in our town. OTOH, I'm not bragging on myself. So here goes. (uneasily)

In our town, Christians help mothers who may be abortion - minded keep their babies if they want to, or with adoption if they want to. They provide prenatal care, food, formula, BF classes, CB classes, baby and toddler furniture, clothing, bedding, towels, diaper bags, toys, books, parenting classes, maternity clothes--all free--for children through about age 4. One of the aims of all of the places like this that I know of locally (totalling 4 in number locally that I have direct experience with) is to show love and respect for these women no matter what their decision is. Each baby that is born gets a layette of all brand new stuff, so that the mom knows how precious that baby is to all of us. Used items that are donated to these organizations are lovingly screened and cleaned, and if they can't be restored to 'like new' they are sent to another charity. This is to respect and honor those who will receive these items. The ministries offer post-abortion classes for women who are upset and regretful about their choice, to help them get past it and forgive themselves and move on. Again, their choice to take this if it's helpful and ignore it if it's not.

There are many churches locally that are not in areas of town where they have a lot of drop-ins by needy people. One group of them banded together years ago to support a church downtown in providing food, clothing, small appliances, bedding, towels, backpacks of school supplies, and gifts to the many needy people around that location. These churches could have just sat back and said that they are meeting their local needs, but instead they proactively looked further and tried to do more. Again, the respect with which their clients are treated is phenomenal--not with a superior or 'largesse' attitude at all. This ministry keeps many, many families from becoming homeless--families who spend all of their income renting a one room space in a boarding house to stay dry and warm, and who can't afford food or clothes or anything else.

There is a great Christian ministry locally that takes in homeless families for 3-6 months straight. The key here is that they each get their own room with its own lock. Did you know know that homeless shelters usually make you carry out your stuff every night and lock the doors behind you, and that you usually don't know whether you can come back in that night or not? So knowing that they are truly housed for that long is huge, and it gives them a vantage point from which to build toward permanent housing. Families also have daycare, job training, and other skills help. They have good food reliably. They can save their welfare or job income so that they get first and last months' rent together so they can exit into their own place. When they leave they take towels and sheets and blankets with them. Some of the kids get to go to week long summer camps, all expenses paid.

I could go on.

Christians do physically minister, a lot. They don't always trumpet this. In fact, they don't often trumpet this.

PS (edit): Any Christian will also tell you that we don't do enough. As long as there are poor people and such problems, we don't do enough.

j.griff

02-08-2008, 01:55 PM

Kelli in TN

02-08-2008, 01:55 PM

Frankly, people of all faiths, or no faith at all, are....well....fallen and HUMAN. Sadly, Christian churches are full of people who aren't perfect, and who sin.

I think that there is a call for humility here, and a recognition that none of us can live the perfect life that Jesus lived. We as Christians will always fail to live up to that ideal, because we are not God.

Tami,
This is excellent. Our pastor often says to our congregation, "If you find the perfect church please don't join it! You will just mess it up!!":p

Humility is the answer, prefering others to ourselves, serving humbly and joyfully, loving people fully, risking everything and then when we lose risking it all again.

We will always fall short, and that sounds so sad but it is not. There is so much joy in the journey.

I slung you some rep, sister.:D

Homeschoolmomto2boys

02-08-2008, 01:56 PM

That's fine, GG. That's your call. :)

I do want to clarify that I was not singling you out as a sinner. It's the condition of every, single person who has ever been born (other than Jesus). I am a sinner of great magnitude. Paul said he chiefest of sinners. The point of my post was to say that sin separates us from God -not other Christians.

j.griff

02-08-2008, 02:05 PM

j.griff--I flung something your way. :)

Thanks GG, and in answer to the "proposal"- Okay- but I am married, have dreads, drive a Suburban with my four kids inside, and I AM moving to Florida soon so watch out :D :p ;)

Scarlett

02-08-2008, 02:05 PM

I for one have no intention of shoving my God or my Faith down anyone's throat. However, this thread, like all threads on this board, isn't restricted to the OPs single question being answered. Several of us had thoughts and comments and wanted to express them. When I grow to dislike the tone of a thread, I unsubscribe. I don't yell at people over their posts.

Tami

02-08-2008, 02:10 PM

These posts defending Christianity, Christians, etc. are getting the h3ll on my NERVES.
NO, no one is perfect, do you really think that atheists, gnostics, etc are that shallow and/or ingorant?
Yes, SOME people will use "hypocrisy" as an excuse to live a "sinful" life and leave "the church". So what?
Now, I *am* irritated here, but I am not *lashing out*, just voicing my frustrations- so don't take this as being an *angry post*, okay?
Arguing with people who have walked away from their religion, telling them they are wrong and just didn't "understand" is NOT going to bring them back. You are totally discounting their valid experiences, opinions, etc. and that's not gaining points for "the church".

I'm not trying to gain any points, just expressing my view. I did not address the original topic - but merely mused on the subtopic that Christians are hypocrites. I also see nothing wring with debate, nor with telling me that I am wrong, if that is what you think. I think radical honesty, if done kindly, is the best order of the day. I hope I am not adding any stress to your day - please feel free to ignore my posts if they are irritating.

Grace is Sufficient

02-08-2008, 02:13 PM

Had you left out the words 'bigoted' and 'hate-filled,' and merely stated that you dislike the Christian belief that Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father but by me," I'd not have commented on it.

I'm "calling it anger" because of those words.

j.griff

02-08-2008, 02:15 PM

I'm not trying to gain any points, just expressing my view. I did not address the original topic - but merely mused on the subtopic that Christians are hypocrites. I also see nothing wring with debate, nor with telling me that I am wrong, if that is what you think. I think radical honesty, if done kindly, is the best order of the day. I hope I am not adding any stress to your day - please feel free to ignore my posts if they are irritating.

LOL, you are not adding any stress to my day. It's just that the context of these posts is insulting to those who've expressed their reasons for leaving Christianity. I don't see anything wrong with debate either, when it's done in a more respectful context. I think it would be more appropriate to start a new thread discussing/debating the things mentioned here. I don't think that these "preachy" posts are in the right location. They are offensive in this thread, that's all.
Of course, that's MNSHO and everyone is free to continue their preachy posting :cool:

Cindy in C-ville

02-08-2008, 02:17 PM

I LOVE how you cared for your friend – without judgment and with love. That’s just beautiful.

~Cindy

Scarlett

02-08-2008, 02:17 PM

But no one was yelling at them for posting, we were asking them to stop invalidating our opinions and to stop doing the very thing you said you won't do.

Not just mine, but several of us have been told by 4 people that our feelings are invalid, we are "angry", we are "volitile", we are "intolerant", and that all we truly need is to be "saved" by "Jesus" and we will be fine.

The OP had a valid question, we gave her valid answers and were promptly told they were "invalid". But you don't want me to be upset over that?

Sorry I don't didn't see anyone tell you that your answers were 'invalid'. I saw answers back to your answers. Opinions. Discussions. And then it FELT like you and JGriff were angry and yelling. So I guess I should have said I FELT like you were angry and yelling at us to shut up. Surely you won't invalidate my FEELINGS by denying that I felt that way.;)

Tami

02-08-2008, 02:21 PM

This is another real beef of mine. Where are all the people who are called by God, in the bible, to help out the poor, the needy, the elderly, the alone and pregnant, etc...? It becomes a "not unless you are a member" game. I was told in my former church (evangelical, I know I know) that it IS "all about the numbers". If you tithed this much this week, "Tithe MORE. We need more!!"

One of my very biggest upsets is abortion clinics. Ok--you are pro-life, I'm seriously not knocking you for that, honestly. But umm, that clinic you are protesting and working to keep women from having one in--what do you do after you "Win"? Do you actually HELP that woman (who may very well be having one because she simply and honestly can NOT take care of it, and for whom adoption is not the answer as it isn't for most) take care of that child? Do you direct her to services for medical? Housing? Substance abuse?

Or you do stand there and count the win? :( Sadly, I can also answer this, they stand there and count the "win". I was flat out told "It is not my job to help them, only to stop them from killing their child, that's more important than anything else".

So is food, basic shelter.. what if she really does not have that? "Doesn't matter, the child lives".

See where I'm going with this? Where is the True Christian love, kindness, charity?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Christian organizations do far more charitable work around the world than atheist organizations. Conservative, Evangelical Christians give the highest percentage of income to charity - MUCH higher than the secular folks. Christians have a loooong way to go in this area, but I believe that to say that Christians don't practice charity is a generally false statement.

j.griff

02-08-2008, 02:22 PM

ROFLOL, this is highly amusing to me. :D
I capitalized a few words for emphasis, because I am just *not* consistent with how I choose to emphasize certain words. But there were not all caps sentences in my post, nor GG's. I even said that my post was NOT an "angry post", and that I was NOT lashing out. I don't know how to be any clearer.
I just voiced my disappointment and frustration at the insistence of christians on preaching their views in this thread.

Rhondabee

02-08-2008, 02:28 PM

Interesting thread by the way.:) First of all, let me say that I am a Christian. However, there have been many times when I have questioned what I believe because of the differences of other Christians. I do believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God and that the Holy Spirit gives us the understanding of the Word. (Don't wish to debate my beliefs, just contributing to the thread:))There are times, though, that although my fellow Christians are "saying" the Word, it doesn't always ring true to what I "think" the meaning is. These times throw me into confusion. I have to really pray and seek the Lord for answers. When these answers don't come quickly, I get even more confused. But, eventually, things fall into place. My prayers usually go something like this, " Lord give me truth, or give them truth." Sometimes I find that I get eye opening revelations, sometimes my fellow Christians will get them. This always cements my faith. However, I can see how someone would falter in perseverence waiting for an answer and how the enemy could over take them and pull them away from the faith.

My dh's sisters are very charismatic. I'm not. They think I'm "spiritually dead"; I think (I try not to think this way, but it's my honest gut reaction) that they care much more about money, clothes, cars, houses and "claiming" these things "in the name of God" than they do about God or other people.

At times the differences in our spiritual emphases really causes me to doubt God's love, my own salvation, etc. I *know* they are "good" people. I believe we are all saved. I believe we worship the same God. I don't think *anybody* has it all "right" when it comes to God. But, there are times when it doesn't seem possible we can ALL be right. And, they are so sure and so certain -and they do have spiritual gifts that I do not - that I really start to doubt myself.

What I try to do is remember that God is a spiritual being ~ and infinite. And, so, really, as closely as I try to walk with him, he is *so much bigger* than what I can see from my POV (my past, my experiences, my personality). Surely he must be more multi-faceted than *I* am. Even with people, I might see one thing in a certain person, while they see something else - another side - entirely, because they see that person through their own experiences and personalities. Or, just like I can have two really good friends, and yet my relationship with each friend has it's own flavor to it.

Sorry - I'm losing my thoughts 'cuz lunch is beeping at me. But, I do appreciate your post!

Scarlett

02-08-2008, 02:32 PM

You are most certainly allowed to feel that way. But then I'd implore you to actually read the thread if you've missed certain posts telling us how wrong we are for not having faith. I've got 3 pages right now and two of those posts are on this very page. Please scroll up and read them.

Unless you don't consider "you are a sinner, come to Jesus, that's why you feel this way, you haven't found jesus" this as invalidating, then I can understand why you missed it.\

I've read the thread Toni. Every word of it. And although I can't recall every single post that was directed to you, I do believe that what has been said on here is feelings, opinions and suggestions. *I* am a little offended when you start telling everyone that 'this' (our opinions and feelings and suggestions) is what drove you away in the first place. That seems as if you are attempting to shut down the conversation after you've had your say.

And for the record, I've never told anyone that they will go to hell for anything. I do believe the Bible is the word of God and when something is written about in the Bible as being sinful, then it is sinful. Regardless of how inconvenient or painful it is to refrain from said sin. So God has made the 'judgment' on the sin---not me. And furthermore, God has the right to forgive sinners and the ability to read hearts, minds and intentions. So I thankfully leave that to Him.

Tami

02-08-2008, 02:38 PM

Tami, please go back and read the whole thread.

you know what, nevermind. It isn't worth arguing over. Some of you refuse to see what we are saying and continue to ignore what we are saying. SolaMichelle, you asked a wonderful question, which I and many others tried to answer for you.

It is unfortunate that our points are being proved in this very thread. But there you have it.

Le Sigh.

GG, your feelings are your feelings and I respect that. I'm not trying to ignore you, but am saying that you must be honest when making generalizations. If you insist on being offended by a call to accuracy, that is up to you.

Kelli in TN

02-08-2008, 02:44 PM

My dh's sisters are very charismatic. I'm not. They think I'm "spiritually dead"; I think (I try not to think this way, but it's my honest gut reaction) that they care much more about money, clothes, cars, houses and "claiming" these things "in the name of God" than they do about God or other people.

At times the differences in our spiritual emphases really causes me to doubt God's love, my own salvation, etc. I *know* they are "good" people. I believe we are all saved. I believe we worship the same God. I don't think *anybody* has it all "right" when it comes to God. But, there are times when it doesn't seem possible we can ALL be right. And, they are so sure and so certain -and they do have spiritual gifts that I do not - that I really start to doubt myself.

What I try to do is remember that God is a spiritual being ~ and infinite. And, so, really, as closely as I try to walk with him, he is *so much bigger* than what I can see from my POV (my past, my experiences, my personality). Surely he must be more multi-faceted than *I* am. Even with people, I might see one thing in a certain person, while they see something else - another side - entirely, because they see that person through their own experiences and personalities. Or, just like I can have two really good friends, and yet my relationship with each friend has it's own flavor to it.

Sorry - I'm losing my thoughts 'cuz lunch is beeping at me. But, I do appreciate your post!

Good post!
:)

Scarlett

02-08-2008, 02:48 PM

No one is attempting to shut down the conversation except those (and I'm not saying YOU fall into this) who are saying "all we need is Jesus". We were asked why, we explained why and were promptly told that our "why" is not valid because we don't have the right faith.

Frankly, I don't recall the scenerio you are describing. I'm sure you can come up with pages of quotes to prove me wrong, but I guess MY point is, they were only offering what they have....why does that tick you off? All you have to say is, 'thank you. I've heard that argument before and I just don't buy it.' Or, 'well you can believe your way and I will believe mine.' Instead you start preaching how hypocritical we are to say abortion is wrong if we aren't giving financial and/or other support to girls in trouble. You don't know who of us are giving what, but you call us out like you think you do.

And please don't call everyone who has offended you my 'sisters'. That feels condenscending and offensive.

PariSarah

02-08-2008, 02:58 PM

Your religious charities come with a "sure, but" attached to them.

It's the "yeah but" that you are forgetting. Charity shouldn't have strings attached to it, especially when those strings are woven around faith.

What is the "sure, but"? I'm not aware of any Christian charity whose members wouldn't jump at the chance to share their faith, but, Toni, it's just not true that even the majority of Christian charities have some sort of religious requirements attached to them.

Habitat for Humanity?
Catholic social services?

You don't have to be Catholic to receive aid from CSS. Habitat for Humanity makes prayer on the worksite completely optional, and has no faith-based requirements for the people they help.

The vast majority of Christian charities that I'm familiar with, that are in my town, give aid without expecting anything in return.

Some that are dealing with more extensive problems (drug addiction, e.g.) have behavior-based restrictions that are integral to the treatment of these extensive problems, but that's not the same as saying they have "faithy" strings attached.

I just don't see that you have any justification for saying "your religious charities have strings attached" without using a word like "some." H3ll, I'd even let a "many" slip by. But all? Please.

Tami

02-08-2008, 03:00 PM

LOL, you are not adding any stress to my day. It's just that the context of these posts is insulting to those who've expressed their reasons for leaving Christianity. I don't see anything wrong with debate either, when it's done in a more respectful context. I think it would be more appropriate to start a new thread discussing/debating the things mentioned here. I don't think that these "preachy" posts are in the right location. They are offensive in this thread, that's all.
Of course, that's MNSHO and everyone is free to continue their preachy posting :cool:

I think I understand what you are saying. Let me check. I think you are saying that when people are asked a question and answer it honestly, they are feeling slapped in the face for it. I hope this is a safe place for all of us. It is hard when hurtful over-generalizations and judgments start flyin'. You know, secular people are THIS way, Christians are THIS way, yada yada. If I was to post why I left a certain belief system, agnosticism, that is not the way I would go.

And (OT!) I want to know how you do dread locks. I think my dd would look great in dreads and she has difficult to manage naturally curly hair.

OnTheBrink

02-08-2008, 03:04 PM

j.griff

02-08-2008, 03:05 PM

I think I understand what you are saying. Let me check. I think you are saying that when people are asked a question and answer it honestly, they are feeling slapped in the face for it. I hope this is a safe place for all of us. It is hard when hurtful over-generalizations and judgments start flyin'. You know, secular people are THIS way, Christians are THIS way, yada yada. If I was to post why I left a certain belief system, agnosticism, that is not the way I would go.

And (OT!) I want to know how you do dread locks. I think my dd would look great in dreads and she has difficult to manage naturally curly hair.

Yep, that's pretty much it. :) www.dreadheadhq.com is where I got my info for dreads, they have instructions on how to make them, and of course they want you to buy their products. ;) if you buy anything from them, supposedly you can use my email addy for a free bottle of locking accelerator on your first order- just let me know if you want it and I'll PM you my add. :D

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

02-08-2008, 03:17 PM

I gather that your dear brothers and sisters in Christ . . . uh, "helped" you invent some of it.

*sigh*

Well, dearest, I'm sorry you had a bad day. I had a bit of a snarler myself. But I suddenly find myself more motivated to get my degree and get out there and teach.

And I just remembered I have ice cream, pretzels, and chocolate sauce in the kitchen. Join me for a snack?

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/eatdrink020.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

You know, while I was struggling those ten years, some years of which I admitted my struggle and sought support and prayer, they really didn't. They were loving and kind and supportive and understanding -- just ultimately sure that I'd struggle and overcome, just as they had, or so they said. They really didn't heap hurt on me. I have no complaints. Then again, I'm still in the closet for 80% of my former friends -- didn't really feel the need to take out newpaper ads in three countries and seven major cities, KWIM? -- so there would surely be shock and disappointment. But no, they didn't heap hurt on me, not so's one would remark on it, anyhow.

And there's more to my idea that a reprobate shouldn't exactly be the Christian's best friend -- it's not just the verses I referred to, as of course I wouldn't consider myself a believer that was perpetually living in sin nor an unbelieving wallower in the mire. It's more complex than that, more "the whole counsel of scripture" sort of thing.

Deeply religious people tend to be guarded around me if they really know me, and if I simply let them believe what they wish because of my background (the Right School, the Right Ministries, the Right Attitude), that introduces a shallowness into the relationship right there. Anyway. No worries, but it's more complicated than just the fact that sure, believers should be hospitable, kind, loving, etc, to unbelievers. I'm sure you understand.

I'm soooo there for the snacks. I'll bring some Thin Mints and some Creme de Menthe for the ice cream. We'll call it Happy.

PariSarah

02-08-2008, 03:19 PM

Yes, SOME people will use "hypocrisy" as an excuse to live a "sinful" life and leave "the church". So what?

I think the "so what" is that some of us are expressing regret that our friends, that people dear to us, are missing out on a beautiful thing. There are some of us who continue to treat those dear friends with respect even when they become something other than Christian, and Toni's vitriol doesn't really apply. But we don't stop wishing that those people would someday experience the beauty of knowing Christ. That's not disrespectful or hateful or "mean"--it's friendship. (And I'm getting this from Aristotle, by the way, not Christian theology: friendship is wishing another person's good. I wish my friends the good that I've experienced with Christ.)

I can understand that prior bad experiences will make people "hear" even reasonable, gentle words as judgmental or condemning, but I'm not going to stop speaking those reasonable, gentle words. Especially if someone else opens the door. If, for example, someone says to me, "All you Christians . . ." about something that, in fact, there's no "all you" about, it would be irresponsible and unkind of me not to give her the chance to know otherwise.

I know that there really are judgmental, condemning jerks out there. I know them, I've lived with them, I occasionally have been one, although I try not to be. But I don't think it's fair to characterize the tone of this thread as judgmental and condemning.

Scarlett

02-08-2008, 03:22 PM

I know that there really are judgmental, condemning jerks out there. I know them, I've lived with them, I occasionally have been one, although I try not to be. But I don't think it's fair to characterize the tone of this thread as judgmental and condemning.

Well said.

Tami

02-08-2008, 03:27 PM

It's the "yeah but" that you are forgetting. Charity shouldn't have strings attached to it, especially when those strings are woven around faith.

I don't know what you mean by "strings." Around the world, Christians are fighting for social justice issues for people of all faiths. Spiritual care is part of the total person. Nobody if forcing Christian conversion, nor denying help for those who don't convert. Secular charities come with strings too, specifially, do not address the spiritual needs of those they are helping, and keep God out of the equation. There are always 2 sides to a flap jack. :)

That charity should be divorced from spiritual care if simply your opinion, and is no more valid than anybody else's. You are welcome to it, and I hope we can encourage each other to 'give 'til it hurts' to our favorite worthy causes.

j.griff

02-08-2008, 03:28 PM

Let me clarify- the "Yep, that's pretty much it." was meant to be directed at the first three sentences of that quote. I totally didn't even understand the last sentence in the first paragraph- so I just kinda shrugged it off.
And I do not think that the actual, real life experiences that people have posted about here, or their opinions, are "over-generalizations" or "judgements".
IMO, it would be respectful to post defensive posts in a new thread when the posters that are being defended against are such personal posts. Does that make any sense?
The way I see it is like this: I don't think any church would appreciate an atheist coming in and trying to prove the bible wrong, stirring up the congregation, confusing some members, etc. They would be offended, agitated, angry, and feel that the atheist is out of place, out of line, and should spread their atheist message else where (if at all- many would think they just shouldn't be allowed to spread such a blasphemist message at all :) ).
I'm all for freedom of speech, I just prefer that those who are speaking have a bit of tact. ;)

Scarlett

02-08-2008, 03:30 PM

Scarlett--I think all I can do at this point is laugh. We HAVE said those things, many times in this thread. And it's being ignored. We are being told that we don't have the right faith. Why does it tick me off? Geez, please go back and re-read the whole thread again. No wait--you said you did and you still don't see it? Then I can't help you. It's there in black and white. I can't help if you refuse to see why it would tick anyone off. "Sisters" was in quotes for a reason.. if they aren't yours, then maybe you should be ashamed of their behavior as well? And I do believe (due to past admonishment) that I've stated "the general you" many MANY times in this thread. I've also pointed out when I wasn't specifically talking about YOU. So again, please go back and re-read the whole thread before you assume that I'm speaking of any one particular person IN THIS THREAD unless I mention them by name.

You did mention me by name in regards to the 'sisters' comment. And I'm not ashamed of what anyone on this thread has said. I am not responsible for any of you or connected to any of you.

I certainly do not agree with your assessment that 'it's all there in black and white.' And likewise, if you can't see that it isn't there, then I can't help you. I guess that leaves us agreeing to disagree. I least *I* agree to disagree with you. You of course are free to NOT agree to disagree.

Mrs Mungo

02-08-2008, 03:39 PM

Becoming a Christian is not about what's in it for you. (Or me, or anyone else.) It begins with a realization that one has offended a Holy God with our sin.
When we see ourselves through God's eyes, see how we are separated from Him because of our offense against Him, it becomes a question of how we can rectify that gap. Not a question of how we can make Christians act the way we want, or why Christians don't measure up. Christianity is not a "club" that we join and leave if the members disappoint.
Salvation is between you and God. It's realizing that you are a sinner with no hope of reconciliation with God unless your sins are forgiven.

I agree with this and I think there are several other people who would as well. There are several people who have said they still consider themselves Christians but they have struggles with the church. I think that's telling. I have a good grounding in the faith, I definitely believe in Christ as my savior, etc. However, if *I* struggle with the church, how are non-believers supposed to find their way?

I understand what you're saying, Tami and agree that I'm just as imperfect. However, you have to admit that when Toni says: "Well, this is in reference to the General you, not YOU exactly, but saying someone is going to hell for being gay or that gays are causing the earth to go to hell in a hand basket IS bigoted and hate filled." Now, *I* have never said and don't believe 9/11 was a judgement from God for our tolerance of gays but when Christian *leaders* say things like that, it *does* push people away from the church and from God. Every Christian gets painted with that brush because they are leaders and respected in the Christian community.

I agree with you, Tami, that the Christian community does a *ton* of good in the world. I will even disagree with Toni that the good *always* has strings attached. Although I must disagree with this: "Nobody if forcing Christian conversion, nor denying help for those who don't convert." Churches *do* deny help to people who aren't members of the church, I've seen it a hundred times. I'm not saying the church should be required to let just anyone in the community use all of its services but let's not pretend there are never any strings (to use the phrase used so far in the posts).

All of that aside, some Christian leaders are easily written off as crazies and that allows people to write off the church and Christianity as a whole. Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on judgement. That comes in many forms and from many places. Christians aren't perfect, nobody is. Christian leaders aren't perfect, nobody is. Nobody is asking for perfection.

Mrs Mungo

02-08-2008, 03:47 PM

Woohoo!! Slather me in them negatives. Yes! I am bathing in the light that is Neg Rep!! :p

If it makes you feel better, I got bad rep for my first post in the thread...was the Halloween bit? I don't know, they didn't actually comment.

If I truly need help, I really do not want to have any strings attached to this help (and I'm not talking about "we give you dental work, if you can do 2 hours of community service" strings either. You DO Have to give/take some. )

I didn't really want to do this but I will. We once moved to a new town. My husband immediately deployed overseas for a long period. I found a church and started attending. I volunteered in this church in more than one capacity. However, when I felt I needed some counseling I was told I had to be a member. I didn't want to join the church as a *member* when my husband had never even attended the church. So, I was denied. I'm not bitter about it, I understand the reasoning (intellectually) but I was going through a *very* difficult time and would have appreciated the help.

PariSarah

02-08-2008, 03:53 PM

Wait a minute, why are you allowed to say I'm spewing vitriol and that it is invalid, but I can't say I'm sick and tired of being told how many times I'm going to hell for believing in x,y, and z?

Well, Toni, I didn't say that you or your vitriol were invalid, but I certainly could have been clearer. I intended to say that your vitriol doesn't apply to those of us that are trying to love our friends even when they happen not to be Christian. So, let me rephrase: your vitriol doesn't apply to at least some of the posts in this thread, to at least some of the Christians I know, and to at least some of my own actions when I'm acting in accordance with who I know Christ to be. It is not categorically invalid (nor are you), but it is an inaccurate characterization of some people and thus an unfair charge when applied to all persons belonging to the category "Self-avowed Christian."

I never questioned your right to say that you were sick and tired of anything. I questioned the accuracy of the charges you leveled, and the indiscriminate fashion in which you leveled them. For you to say "You Christians" is just as wrong as for me to say, "You Goths."

Please direct me to the post in this thread that has explicitly condemned you to hell and given the reason for it. I have, truly, missed it.

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

02-08-2008, 03:54 PM

I LOVE how you cared for your friend – without judgment and with love. That’s just beautiful.

~Cindy

You're sweet.

My point was, really, that it wasn't a terribly unusual thing. We might have heard of others' good deeds through the grapevine or whatever, as most people didn't exactly advertise, but it's not like we were these bizarre whackadoo do-gooders out there. :p

Just regular people doing what people do.

KarenNC

02-08-2008, 04:01 PM

I left Christianity because I slowly came to the realization that it purely and simply was not an accurate reflection of the spiritual reality that I had experienced all my life. I spent decades trying with every fiber of my being to be what I thought was what I was supposed to be or that was the only possible choice---a Christian. In the end I came to see that I could not reconcile my religious experiences and my beliefs about them with even the most liberal Christianity. There are a few core things that you have to believe and I just flat didn't believe them. Looking back, I realized that I had not fully believed them since I was at minimum 10 years old though I didn't know it at the time.

There is a story in Judaism about converts being Jewish souls born in Gentile bodies and now "coming home". That is what it has been like for me. Perhaps I am a Hellenic soul that was born into a Christian body....who knows?

I miss much about Christianity, particularly this year when we are studying the Middle Ages as well as around the holidays. I truly love the liturgy of high church, much of the music (especially Gregorian chant), the pageantry, etc. There is much to admire in Christianity and in what it has done historically as well as much to criticize, as in any other institution. Enjoying some of the trappings of a religion, however, is not a substitute for actually believing in its core tenets.

It would also be infinitely easier for me to be able to pretend that I was still a Christian, at least enough to "pass". It would be easier to find a homeschool group, find curricula, participate in my community and in the homeschooling opportunities of the wider community, be part of my extended family, etc. It would also be easier if I could believe that religion didn't matter to me and they were all the same anyway. Unfortunately, however, that would mean living a lie and teaching my child to do so. That I am simply not willing to do. Convenience is also not a substitute for believing in the core tenet of a religion.

So in the end, it is not and never was about what others do. It was about what I have experienced as spiritual reality and what I believe about that as well as about living a life of integrity and honesty, whether or not it is convenient.

Homeschoolmomto2boys

02-08-2008, 04:12 PM

Mrs. Mungo, you said:
I agree with this and I think there are several other people who would as well. There are several people who have said they still consider themselves Christians but they have struggles with the church. I think that's telling. I have a good grounding in the faith, I definitely believe in Christ as my savior, etc. However, if *I* struggle with the church, how are non-believers supposed to find their way?

I addressed GG the way I did because she said she had backed away from "Christianity" - not a church. Perhaps she meant churches, but I understand "Christianity" to mean a belief system.

There's no doubt that churches and Christians have failed to behave in a Christ-like manner at times. I have been in lousy churches and wonderful churches. Some churches are being led by the Spirit and some are just social organizations meant to make people feel better about themselves. I'm reminded of the exhortations to the various churches in the NT, and how they measured up in some areas and failed miserably in others.

However, that does not relieve a person from the responsibility they have before God. All of us will stand before Him and give account. There will be no excuses accepted. Either we will have the blood of Christ covering our sin or we will not. If we have Christ's blood covering our sin, we will be exonerated on that basis and that basis alone.

Man's guilt is what will condemn him, and there will be no exceptions based on how poorly he was treated by people proclaiming to be Christians.

I don't say that in a heartless way. I totally understand what you're saying. (and GG, too) My heart is heavy at the thought of the rejection of Christ based on flawed people.
But it is not love to not stress the importance of making a choice to follow Christ while we still have the choice. BTW, My motivation for sharing my thoughts does not lie in my desire to be proven right or be self-righteous or to preach. I'm motivated by a deep longing to see others come to Christ - and thus, be reconciled to God. In doing so, I'm fully aware that it will offend some - but Scripture tells me that the Gospel is on offense to some.
God bless.

GothicGyrl

02-08-2008, 04:14 PM

Well, Toni, I didn't say that you or your vitriol were invalid, but I certainly could have been clearer. I intended to say that your vitriol doesn't apply to those of us that are trying to love our friends even when they happen not to be Christian. So, let me rephrase: your vitriol doesn't apply to at least some of the posts in this thread, to at least some of the Christians I know, and to at least some of my own actions when I'm acting in accordance with who I know Christ to be. It is not categorically invalid (nor are you), but it is an inaccurate characterization of some people and thus an unfair charge when applied to all persons belonging to the category "Self-avowed Christian."

I never questioned your right to say that you were sick and tired of anything. I questioned the accuracy of the charges you leveled, and the indiscriminate fashion in which you leveled them. For you to say "You Christians" is just as wrong as for me to say, "You Goths."

Please direct me to the post in this thread that has explicitly condemned you to hell and given the reason for it. I have, truly, missed it.
Except that, again, the purpose of asking the original question was "why did we leave Christianity" and we said why. That would have to involve us stating "christians did this to us" and we should not have to add millions of disclaimers throughout our post that we are expressing OUR opinion of why WE left, since the original question was posed those of us who had left and not those of you who have stayed.

Therefore, any post that comes in stating "you just haven't found Jesus yet" or any form thereof, is applicable to those of us who have stated reasons why we left. Those statements made, would fit our reasons.

Therefore, it is NOT an " inaccurate characterization of some people and thus an unfair charge when applied to all persons belonging to the category "Self-avowed Christian."" because we are firstly, not speaking(nor did we proclaim otherwise) of people ON THIS BOARD (until some of them came in to the thread later to tell us we were wrong) and we were speaking of the general concensus of christians. So, what we were asked to do and subsiquently did, was an accurate way for us to answer.

I cannot help that you feel offended by this, especially since I've not named names from anyone here (except for those who did exactly what we stated was the reason we left). I've not ever said anyone on here specifically condemned me to hell for anything because that was not the original point of the OP, which is what any of us were answering.

I also cannot help that you cannot see the few posts in the previous pages from 4 different members as being and doing exactly what some of us have said we did not want. We were asked (again!!) why we left, and we stated as much not expecting to get told all we have to do is find Jesus.

That may be what YOU believe, it may be what they believe, but it is not what *I* believe and since *I* was asked the question(and others like me), it was wrong for (general) you to come in and start preaching and telling me and others we are wrong to feel this way because (general)you don't believe those who wronged us did anything wrong.

Please read Mrs. Mungo's post. She said what I just said above, better than I can say it. That's all I can say. You (YOU) may, in effect, feel that I shouldn't be offended by these posts because that's what you (YOU)believe also, but the truth is, you(general) aren't going to win anyone over to your(general) side by continuously telling people how wrong we are for feeling that way.

PariSarah

02-08-2008, 04:17 PM

Parisarah:
"sure we'll baptise your kid, become a PAYING member of our church first"
"you need dental help? Please attend this membership class first, then we'll help you"
"if you want to find God in our Church, become a member. Classes are offered only twice a year though, so take us up on it. When you do this, we'll take your opinion seriously"
"We need you to tithe more. We understand you are not a member, but you are not tithing enough."
"Why haven't you become a member yet? Your kid cannot stay in Missionettes unless you become a member, those are the rules"
"I'm sorry we can't help you. We have a rule against helping non-members of the church".

I'm sorry for your bad experiences, Toni, but I'm having trouble seeing some of these as denials of charity. Baptism is not charity. Missionettes are not charity. Your problem seems to be that some churches want their membership vows to mean something. This would be an interesting discussion for us to have, but it is irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not Christian charity is ever offered without requiring church membership.

How many more "yeah but" examples do you want me to give you?

I want you to give me examples for every Christian charity on the planet, because your initial accusation was deliberately general. You said "Your religious charities come with a 'yeah, but' attached to them."

Catholic Charities and Habitat, by law, can't deny services based soley on faith. Neither can the Salvation Army, Goodwill or any one else like it. But I do believe, again, this would have been seen if it had been read, that I've stated many times, that I am speaking of CHURCHES charities as the thread was about CHURCHES charities, not entire enterprises run by conglomerated big business churches.

Ah, I see. So, when you use the word "religious charities," I should have understood "the churches from whom I've asked certain things and been denied." I'm glad you're starting to clarify your meaning. Because when you answered a thread regarding the prevalence of social justice actions among Christians with a comment about "Your religious charities," the logical reading was that you were denying the existence of effective, generous financial and personal assistance that is given without strings attached.

In fact, you're still talking about interpersonal dynamics and doctrinal/ethical clashes at the churches you've been involved with. Not the millions of soup kitchens, medical clinics, lending closets, hospitals, schools, aid societies, food pantries, counseling organizations, and emergency aid societies that are all over the world, that give their services free of charge and with no expectation of return. You weren't talking about any of those, even though that's what the person you were responding to was talking about. You were changing the subject, then, yes?

Or maybe you're saying that the effect those millions of organizations, large and small, is virtually nil compared to your (justified) anger and being poorly treated in at least some of the scenarios you're describing above?

Or perhaps what you're really saying in all these posts is that your experience has been so negative that you refuse to believe that something like what you experienced doesn't taint all of those millions of organizations, and that no amount of testimony will convince you otherwise? That you know what's really going on in the heads of all the millions of people involved with them, and you know that it's bad.

j.griff

02-08-2008, 04:19 PM

I'm motivated by a deep longing to see others come to Christ - and thus, be reconciled to God. In doing so, I'm fully aware that it will offend some - but Scripture tells me that the Gospel is on offense to some.
God bless.
ITU where you are coming from, I just totally disagree that this is the place for it.
This brings to my mind the idea of personal rights- where does a persons right to not be harassed by a religion end, and a persons freedom of speech begin? And vice versa.

GothicGyrl

02-08-2008, 04:22 PM

homeschoomomto2boys:

I addressed GG the way I did because she said she had backed away from "Christianity" - not a church. Perhaps she meant churches, but I understand "Christianity" to mean a belief system.

Both. I did not like **religion** to begin with, but I did especially back away from both. Churches **are** the worst, but the "faith" part of the system, I don't agree with either.

My heart is heavy at the thought of the rejection of Christ based on flawed people.
But it is not love to not stress the importance of making a choice to follow Christ while we still have the choice. BTW, My motivation for sharing my thoughts does not lie in my desire to be proven right or be self-righteous or to preach. I'm motivated by a deep longing to see others come to Christ - and thus, be reconciled to God. In doing so, I'm fully aware that it will offend some - but Scripture tells me that the Gospel is on offense to some.

And this is the crux of my contention with what you said. Please do NOT pray for me, do not get a heavy heart because I don't want to get saved and please stop trying to "rescue" me. i do not need it, nor do I want your type of "save". It is insulting to me to think I've got people out there "praying" for me to "come to Jesus".

I do know that it does say "ALL come to Christ in HIS own time"--which means all of your "heavy heart" and motivation for sharing is doing is driving me away. Far away. YOU do not bring anyone to Christ, HE does. If I am meant to believe, HE will show me. Not you. Your words will do nothing but cause anger and that anger leads to dissolvment.

It also says something about "the worst thing a Christian can do is to be a stumbling block for others".. this isn't just in reference to Christians, yanno. It also means for you to not be any kind of stumbling block for a non-believer, to Christ. And words like what you keep saying are just that.

Whether you believe this or not, that is how it is.

Disclaimer: I am speaking to both Homeschoolmom and to the general you.

I want you to give me examples for every Christian charity on the planet, because your initial accusation was deliberately general
If you understood it to be "deliberately general", then I should not have to do as you ask, because I was speaking "in general", which means just that--general. The rest of what you said, I can't tell whether it was snark, snot, or rude. You ask me to do one thing, I do it, then you dismiss and deny that I did it, turn around and ask me to do another thing and do it all over again. Since I cannot please you no matter how I do it, I'll just go stick my nose in a corner and allow my self to be thumped repeatedly, ok?

I've got to go to work anyway, so while I'm gone, just make sure I don't start bleeding, what with all the thumping I have to take. I'll be sure to clean it up when I come home. I promise.

(yes, the above was snark. I can't win for losing).

Homeschoolmomto2boys

02-08-2008, 04:26 PM

J. Griff, this post was written because I was addressed and asked a question by a poster. I answered it. :)

My OP was to offer a different perspective, and it can be accepted or rejected. I tried to stay as close to Scripture in offering my perspective as I could. I'm aware that not everyone accepts Scripture as the basis of truth, but my motivation is sincere.

j.griff

02-08-2008, 04:31 PM

GothicGyrl

02-08-2008, 04:32 PM

Homeschoolmomto2boys- I didn't see a question asked of you, but okay. I still disagree that THIS is the place for you to spout bible verses, biblical teachings, etc. I find it rude, and I AM a Christian.
Thank you, my point exactly. THIS THREAD was not the thread to be doing it in. Something very specifc was asked of others that are not like this and it has turned in to something very different.

Hey, Mrs. Mungo--I now get what the "bump" means in my neg rep!! They thought they were "bumping" me off the top spot. HA!

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled programming. :)

Homeschoolmomto2boys

02-08-2008, 04:44 PM

Mrs Mungo

02-08-2008, 04:47 PM

GG, I'm not trying to offend you, but I will share the truth of Scripture without reservation because I believe it to be the foundation of Christian beliefs.

I don't think she's denying your right to do so. I think she's saying this thread isn't the appropriate place for it.

Homeschoolmomto2boys

02-08-2008, 04:50 PM

Homeschoolmomto2boys- I didn't see a question asked of you, but okay. I still disagree that THIS is the place for you to spout bible verses, biblical teachings, etc. I find it rude, and I AM a Christian.

Mrs. Mungo addressed this to me: I agree with this and I think there are several other people who would as well. There are several people who have said they still consider themselves Christians but they have struggles with the church. I think that's telling. I have a good grounding in the faith, I definitely believe in Christ as my savior, etc. However, if *I* struggle with the church, how are non-believers supposed to find their way?

That's what I was responding to.

cricket1178

02-08-2008, 04:51 PM

What I try to do is remember that God is a spiritual being ~ and infinite. And, so, really, as closely as I try to walk with him, he is *so much bigger* than what I can see from my POV (my past, my experiences, my personality). Surely he must be more multi-faceted than *I* am. Even with people, I might see one thing in a certain person, while they see something else - another side - entirely, because they see that person through their own experiences and personalities. Or, just like I can have two really good friends, and yet my relationship with each friend has it's own flavor to it.

Beautiful! And so true.

PariSarah

02-08-2008, 04:51 PM

It feels like one of those long fights with your hubby that got started who knows how and everybody is reacting to everything but what the original problem was.

Except that, again, the purpose of asking the original question was "why did we leave Christianity" and we said why. That would have to involve us stating "christians did this to us" and we should not have to add millions of disclaimers throughout our post that we are expressing OUR opinion of why WE left, since the original question was posed those of us who had left and not those of you who have stayed.

Therefore, any post that comes in stating "you just haven't found Jesus yet" or any form thereof, is applicable to those of us who have stated reasons why we left. Those statements made, would fit our reasons.

So, I'm not allowed to answer someone who says "I got lots of grief from Christians and that's why I don't believe in Jesus," by saying, "I'm sorry for your experiences, Toni, and I wish you had gone to my church. That wouldn't have happened to you here"? Is it that I'm not even allowed to express regret for what happened to you and affirm that I personally know of people and churches who follow Jesus better than the ones of your experience?

Or is it that I'm not allowed to point out that the people who are claiming the name of Jesus are not doing what he said and are thus not, themselves, good authorities for understanding Jesus? So, then, I'm not allowed to say, "You know, Toni, the people that told you that you were going to hell because of your body piercings were wrong to do that, and they certainly represented Jesus badly"?

Either way, it sounds like I'm not allowed to agree with you that you were treated badly, and I'm certainly not allowed to say that such behavior is unchristian. Even though that's what you yourself are saying--that such behavior is unchristian.

I understand why you would take offense at someone saying, "You just didn't meet the real Jesus at that church," given your past experiences, but I cannot in good conscience allow such experiences to stand as a testimony to my savior. That's not the Jesus I know, and I would be allowing you to believe a lie if I didn't say so. The people to whom you are referring in many of your charges (not all, but many) were lying to you about who Jesus was. To correct their lie is not the same as disregarding your emotional response to that lie, which was the correct one. The Jesus you met in those churches was worth leaving. Spit on him on your way out the door. But don't spit on the real Jesus, or the people who hope you will love him enough to put up with some of his followers. Don't spit on people who are agreeing with you that what happened to you was unchristian.

I cannot help that you feel offended by this, especially since I've not named names from anyone here (except for those who did exactly what we stated was the reason we left). I've not ever said anyone on here specifically condemned me to hell for anything because that was not the original point of the OP, which is what any of us were answering.

Well, first of all, let me assure you that I'm not offended by anything you've said. Challenging your factual accuracy is not the same as taking offense at you. You've presented many of your statements as facts, not personal opinions or experiences, and I've challenged the truth of them as facts, not as personal experiences.

So, are you saying that no one on this board or in this post has told you you were going to hell? Or are you saying that four people in this post have done "exactly what we" (which we was that?) "stated was the reason we left," which was, to wit, tell you that you were going to hell?

Can you understand my confusion, Toni? You're so busy flinging so many accusations that nobody can quite tell whom you are accusing and of what.

You (YOU) may, in effect, feel that I shouldn't be offended by these posts because that's what you (YOU)believe also, but the truth is, you(general) aren't going to win anyone over to your(general) side by continuously telling people how wrong we are for feeling that way.

Again, I'm simply not dealing with your or my feelings of offense. I'm trying to pin down what you're saying. I'm trying to understand the tracks your logic train is running on, because the accusations are flying too thick and with too many (deliberately?) unclear antecedents for me to understand what you're saying.

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

02-08-2008, 04:53 PM

GG: I do know that it does say "ALL come to Christ in HIS own time"--which means all of your "heavy heart" and motivation for sharing is doing is driving me away. Far away. YOU do not bring anyone to Christ, HE does. If I am meant to believe, HE will show me. Not you. Your words will do nothing but cause anger and that anger leads to dissolvment.

This is exactly right! See you and I can agree on something. :)
However, the Bible also says :
"But how can people call on him if they have not believed in him? How can they believe in him if they have not heard his message? How can they hear if no one tells the Good News?"

That's all I'm doing. I'm sharing the Good News of the Gospel.

It also says something about "the worst thing a Christian can do is to be a stumbling block for others".. this isn't just in reference to Christians, yanno. It also means for you to not be any kind of stumbling block for a non-believer, to Christ. And words like what you keep saying are just that.

Whether you believe this or not, that is how it is.

Of course, this isn't my intention. But I would point you to this verse-

The Gospel itself can be a stumbling block according to Scripture.
Jesus said. "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness (1 Cor. 1:23).

GG, I'm not trying to offend you, but I will share the truth of Scripture without reservation because I believe it to be the foundation of Christian beliefs.

Main thing, and I imagine you didn't really pick up on it being new, is that an explicit board rule says we're not to proselytize here. For ANYTHING. So I would not, for example, sit here and poke holes in the Romans Road or try to convince you that you are sincere but misguided, but someday, if I am patient and just give you enough information, you too can see the light of agnosticism. Because, of course, I am concerned that you not persist in your deception. Or something like that. (Please read the light humor that I intend in the last bits of this message. ;))

If it comforts your heart on my behalf, I have heard the gospel a time or two myself. :)

GothicGyrl

02-08-2008, 05:17 PM

OI! Head Desk--Ouch! Stop that. ugh... sigh...**burp**

Ok... anyway...ignoring my alter ego there for a moment.

Pari, I need a new keyboard. I hate this one. That's not your fault, it keeps sticking on me. I start a thought and have to go erase what I said cuz my posessed keyboard has gone all dddddddddddhhhhhhhhhhhggggggggg on me...

Uhh, what was I saying? Oh yeah--PariSarah:

So, I'm not allowed to answer someone who says "I got lots of grief from Christians and that's why I don't believe in Jesus," by saying, "I'm sorry for your experiences, Toni, and I wish you had gone to my church. That wouldn't have happened to you here"? Is it that I'm not even allowed to express regret for what happened to you and affirm that I personally know of people and churches who follow Jesus better than the ones of your experience?

When I say what I am about to say, I am not saying it with any kind of vitriol or meaning to offend. So--I wonder if you can understand that even if you said that to me, I'd still be pissed because it is very much like thumping. You are still trying to justify what was done to me only you are adding "MY Christ" to it. That doesn't endure one such as myself to you at any point in the conversation because it makes me want to say "Wait, don't you worship the same Christ"? If you don't, just which Christ is it that you do?

Do you understand what I mean? Because saying this:
Or is it that I'm not allowed to point out that the people who are claiming the name of Jesus are not doing what he said and are thus not, themselves, good authorities for understanding Jesus? So, then, I'm not allowed to say, "You know, Toni, the people that told you that you were going to hell because of your body piercings were wrong to do that, and they certainly represented Jesus badly"?

Either way, it sounds like I'm not allowed to agree with you that you were treated badly, and I'm certainly not allowed to say that such behavior is unchristian. Even though that's what you yourself are saying--that such behavior is unchristian. is only going to elicit a "I KNOW that, I could have told you that" from me. So you not only wouldn't be telling me anything I didn't already know, but you'd be ticking me off in the process with repeating it to me expecting me to take it differently just because you said it sweeter than they did.

It doesn't work like that.

I understand why you would take offense at someone saying, "You just didn't meet the real Jesus at that church," given your past experiences, but I cannot in good conscience allow such experiences to stand as a testimony to my savior. That's not the Jesus I know, and I would be allowing you to believe a lie if I didn't say so. The people to whom you are referring in many of your charges (not all, but many) were lying to you about who Jesus was. To correct their lie is not the same as disregarding your emotional response to that lie, which was the correct one. The Jesus you met in those churches was worth leaving. Spit on him on your way out the door. But don't spit on the real Jesus, or the people who hope you will love him enough to put up with some of his followers. Don't spit on people who are agreeing with you that what happened to you was unchristian.

I'm just going to quote Mrs. Mungo here, because apparantly the twice before I asked you to look at her response was missed, I'll bold them for you:

I understand what you're saying, Tami and agree that I'm just as imperfect. However, you have to admit that when Toni says: "Well, this is in reference to the General you, not YOU exactly, but saying someone is going to hell for being gay or that gays are causing the earth to go to hell in a hand basket IS bigoted and hate filled." Now, *I* have never said and don't believe 9/11 was a judgement from God for our tolerance of gays but when Christian *leaders* say things like that, it *does* push people away from the church and from God. Every Christian gets painted with that brush because they are leaders and respected in the Christian community.

If these are not YOUR leaders who don't worship YOUR Christ, then please speak up about it TO THEM. Denying the existence of the very people that call themselves your leaders does not dismiss their existence. They do exist and they ARE representing YOU.

I can easily say the same about homeschooling. I can't tell you how many times *I* have to correct this "lie" you speak of when I am approached by people going "are you one of THEM?". Because the "them" they are referring to are the "religious" homeschoolers who claim to represent ME. And since I KNOW they do NOT represent ME, I stick my foot out and trip them, get it?

So, are you saying that no one on this board or in this post has told you you were going to hell? Or are you saying that four people in this post have done "exactly what we" (which we was that?) "stated was the reason we left," which was, to wit, tell you that you were going to hell?

The "we" is understood and has been understood to represent those of us who were asked the question by the OP. NOT those of you who already are in the faith. Yes, one did in fact, and in essence, tell me I am going to hell by telling me that because I am a sinner the only way to redemption is to be saved. She's said it several times, even after being asked not to. HOWEVER, originally, no one did actually say "you are going to hell" and since I wasn't ever referring to anyone in this thread originally (until it was brought up by these 4), and since I made doubly sure to clarify who I was speaking to and about, I simply don't get why you are so confused unless it is to continue to harass me.

You seem to be the only confused one here (of course, now that I've said that and since I'll be leaving for work, this thread will get a ton of "no she's not" responses knowing full well I can't come in here and defend that).

I will not repeat myself, I've already stated, many times, why I left the church. I honestly cannot help that you can't see this. I'm not denying you the right to believe that what I and others have experienced is wrong in the eyes of who you feel your Jesus is, but that's the facts--the facts are we've experienced it, it's happened to us and those are our reasons for backing away. They are not any less factual just because "someone" keeps misrepresenting what you think Jesus is.