When teen is adult... help!

[BMW]

My oldest is 18yog. She works about 10-15 hrs. weekly and goes to college Mon.-Fri. locally. I provide all of her transportation - she is not driving very well yet and is taking her time. She has scholarship money paying for her classes. I spent $350.00 for her books. Her only bill is her cell and her 2nd bill will be insurance when she gets her license. She spends all of her money, no matter what the circumstance.

So, this morning goes like this: "OOOh, Starbucks! Let's stop" I say that I don't have money to spend on Starbucks, does she have her own money. Yes, she assures me that she does. I give a 1 minute talk of, "you might want to really think about your budget and keeping more money in your account and not spending it all" Could have been talking to the door.

I pick her up and expect a problem, because I had just got her high school sister a Jamba Juice drink as a celebration for her making singles varsity tennis (big goal, lots of work) and I have a Jamba Juice drink with me when I pick her up. She says something sarcastic about me not being able to afford coffee, but getting Jamba Juice. I tell her it was a reward time for her sister - yadda-yadda. Then she says that if I was on a tight budget why did we take the children to an amusement park recently. I tell her that we really needed a fun day and that was our choice as parent and I don't have to explain myself to her.

Okay, I should have just backed out and let it go... and let her rattle on and ignore it or politely say, "I need to not have this discussion right now." I mention that I am driving her around and she could be taking the city bus. She tells me that it's her right as a middle class American to be taken to college and not have to ride a bus. She then gets all dramatic and emotional (turn on the tears) and says that she had to buy new shoes for kickboxing and that her sweats are old and ugly and she shouldn't have to look this way... yadda-yadda. I tell her that if she hadn't spent money on lots of tops and other things lately she could have bought herself new clothes for kickboxing. And I wonder how many startbucks would add up to sweatpants and t-shirt... She does not like this at all and continues the drama. In my dream world I politely remind her that I really don't want to have this converation anymore. In reality I say, "Shut up." Now she goes on about me not respecting her and she deserves my respect. I let her know that she is not respecting me.

AAAH! Okay, we arrive at my counseling appointment (for myself) and she is in tears, non-stop drama saying ridiculous things that aren't even true (like that I want her to pay me back for me buying her books... I bought those for her happily and lovingly... I would have loved for parental help in college, I didn't have any!). We get out of the car and I said, "If you want to get back into the car and ride home with me, you will owe me an apology. If you don't apologize you can walk home." She starts walking towards the building and takes her cell phone out and walks down the street, calling a friend.

I suppose she called a friend and got picked up. She was no where around and I was in an office with windows to see if she came back. She didn't. I have a full schedule this afternoon (driving all the children to counseling now). If she doesn't come home, she is 18 and I don't think I'd report it. She's not answering her phone. I figure she'll show up. If she doesn't, I can't imagine what consequence to give... she is a young adult. I could refuse to drive her around until she is more respectful... What do you think about all this... ugh, I feel bad about myself in a small way, but at the same time I did try asking her to stop the discussion because it wasn't going anywhere (before I said shut up). ugh

Bee

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

Oh Honey, I feel your pain. I don't have time to elaborate right now, but we just dropped our 18yo off at college on Wednesday and it did not go swimmingly. I had visions of her introducing us to her roommmate and showing her siblings around the school, making note of things she still needed and going out to purchase them, a few tears, a flurry of goodbyes and a nice rite-of-passage sigh for everyone. Not to be. Long story short, she made it very clear she did not want any of us to even show up on campus. She procrastinated all week and didn't get everything in the truck or her room completely cleaned out. She threw a snit fit when I made her come back and do it herself rather than emotionally manipulating her sister to do it. I don't know what happened. She was not raised this way. Is it an oldest girl thing? I know this one has struggled with entitlement issues since her next older sister was born 14 years ago.

Sigh. So sorry for us both.

Barb

My oldest is 18yog. She works about 10-15 hrs. weekly and goes to college Mon.-Fri. locally. I provide all of her transportation - she is not driving very well yet and is taking her time. She has scholarship money paying for her classes. I spent $350.00 for her books. Her only bill is her cell and her 2nd bill will be insurance when she gets her license. She spends all of her money, no matter what the circumstance.

So, this morning goes like this: "OOOh, Starbucks! Let's stop" I say that I don't have money to spend on Starbucks, does she have her own money. Yes, she assures me that she does. I give a 1 minute talk of, "you might want to really think about your budget and keeping more money in your account and not spending it all" Could have been talking to the door.

I pick her up and expect a problem, because I had just got her high school sister a Jamba Juice drink as a celebration for her making singles varsity tennis (big goal, lots of work) and I have a Jamba Juice drink with me when I pick her up. She says something sarcastic about me not being able to afford coffee, but getting Jamba Juice. I tell her it was a reward time for her sister - yadda-yadda. Then she says that if I was on a tight budget why did we take the children to an amusement park recently. I tell her that we really needed a fun day and that was our choice as parent and I don't have to explain myself to her.

Okay, I should have just backed out and let it go... and let her rattle on and ignore it or politely say, "I need to not have this discussion right now." I mention that I am driving her around and she could be taking the city bus. She tells me that it's her right as a middle class American to be taken to college and not have to ride a bus. She then gets all dramatic and emotional (turn on the tears) and says that she had to buy new shoes for kickboxing and that her sweats are old and ugly and she shouldn't have to look this way... yadda-yadda. I tell her that if she hadn't spent money on lots of tops and other things lately she could have bought herself new clothes for kickboxing. And I wonder how many startbucks would add up to sweatpants and t-shirt... She does not like this at all and continues the drama. In my dream world I politely remind her that I really don't want to have this converation anymore. In reality I say, "Shut up." Now she goes on about me not respecting her and she deserves my respect. I let her know that she is not respecting me.

AAAH! Okay, we arrive at my counseling appointment (for myself) and she is in tears, non-stop drama saying ridiculous things that aren't even true (like that I want her to pay me back for me buying her books... I bought those for her happily and lovingly... I would have loved for parental help in college, I didn't have any!). We get out of the car and I said, "If you want to get back into the car and ride home with me, you will owe me an apology. If you don't apologize you can walk home." She starts walking towards the building and takes her cell phone out and walks down the street, calling a friend.

I suppose she called a friend and got picked up. She was no where around and I was in an office with windows to see if she came back. She didn't. I have a full schedule this afternoon (driving all the children to counseling now). If she doesn't come home, she is 18 and I don't think I'd report it. She's not answering her phone. I figure she'll show up. If she doesn't, I can't imagine what consequence to give... she is a young adult. I could refuse to drive her around until she is more respectful... What do you think about all this... ugh, I feel bad about myself in a small way, but at the same time I did try asking her to stop the discussion because it wasn't going anywhere (before I said shut up). ugh

Bee

[Heather in the Kootenays]

First, a disclaimer - my dd is only 16 so I'm not there yet. This is all theoretical.

My first thoughts are that I wouldn't be driving around anyone who didn't appreciate it.

I think that I'd not engage with her about her earning/budget. It's the kind of thing that my dd will learn faster if she isn't resisting my opinions on it. Sometimes, I need practise biting my tongue and I do slip but I try to let her handle it on her own.

It's a hard age to deal with in lots of ways. They think they're grown up and perhaps we don't.

:grouphug:

[betty]

If the bus schedule and routes are fairly straight forward, I think it's time for your dd to take care of getting herself around. I'd offer to reimburse her for tokens or passes on a monthly basis. She'd get no reimbursement if she managed to get anyone in the family to drive her again. That's why I'd make it a reimbursement and not pay up front for her.

She will have to be more organized about her time getting to school and work.

If it turns out the public transportation is 2 hours and requires transfers and other problems, I'd put restrictions on when I drove. I'd look at her class schedule and the schedule of everyone else in my house. I'd pick a time that was convenient to me before and after class and say those were her only options. If she gets there early so what. If she needs to wait for you so what. I would not allow extra stops she suggests to and from class simply because it's not convenient to your use of time.

I don't see you controlling her spending. She either saves for the workout clothes she wants or maybe she can have them for Christmas.

Your dd may be 18. She may be eligible to vote, serve in the military, and be arrested charged as an adult, but she's isn't behaving like an adult. Her crying is just manipulation.

[Mom to Aly]

While your dd is 18, she is obviously not an adult. I think you need to offer her choices. First, while she is living under your roof, she has to obey rules, and have consequences, which include punishment if the rules are broken, and one of the biggest rules is respect. Second, I would let her know that if she wants to be treated as an adult, she should act like one (sounds trite, but true).

And I have to ask you something--if a younger sib were working part-time, would you make them buy their own stuff, as you are asking her to do? Just asking.

When I was in college, I worked full time from day one--my dad & I had a huge fight over where I'd go and what I'd study. I had a full academic scholarship, but he gave me no support, so I had to support myself. When he died, shortly after, I was used to working, and kept on, supporting myself. My siblings were fully supported through college and never worked, and I never resented it because #1, it was my choice, eventually, #2, I felt I was capable, they really weren't. So, do you think she is capable, at this point, of really taking care of herself with the money she makes, even partially? Or do you think a good compromise, to help her on the road to learning to be more responsible with it might be to say half is for transport or stuff she "needs", and half for whatever?

[Faithr]

My oldest daughter is about to turn 18 and is now working at Starbucks. We just cut off her allowance. She is now responsible for buying her own stuff and for saving for college. I am just copying exactly what my parents did. They paid tuition and room for college but I had to work to pay for food, books, clothes and anything else.

My explanation to my daughter was she is about to become an adult and as a parent I am doing her a disservice by making her too dependent on us (her parents). She needs to learn to manage a budget and think ahead. This is a basic life skill that she will need her whole adult life. It's crucial. I am very happy to reimburse her if she pays for something for me (I call her and ask her to pick something up or today for ex. she took my 16 yo shopping for shoes and paid for them, so that gets reimbursed of course..)

My advice would be to sit and think through exactly where you want to draw the lines. You aren't doing her any favors by letting her have the expectation that you'll provide for her every whim. (That line about having a middle class right to no busrides cracked me up!!!! At least she's creative in whining!) I mean it sounds like you resent it and that she's taking advantage of it. So I'd tell her to get moving on learning to drive because you're tired of doing it for her (if that is the case, of course!). And I'd make a list of exactly what she's reponsible for and what you are responsible for. She needs to grow up.

(Hope this doesn't rude or anything. I have been having the same sort of friciton my my oldest so I kind of got mad with you there while reading your post. Wanna come over for coffee? )

I think parenting kids at this age is really, really hard!!!!!!

[Cafelattee]

of the present generation. I personally would make her find her own rides. She needs to find her own food etc. She needs to purchase her on clothes
She is 18 its time to grow up and not abuse Mom.

I am the oldest and never felt a right of entitlement. The very opposite. I felt like I couldn't ask for anything because I knew that my parents didn't have the money and I had younger siblings that needed things more than myself

My ds has to work for anything extra. This includes stops at Star-bucks. He is 15. I will still purchase extra for the 11yo. He understands that I am preparing him to be a responsible man. He doesn't get upset. He wants to be responsible for himself.

The girl is manipulating you. Time for tough love.

[JFS in IL]

H'mm - scholarship covers tuition - you bought the books, provide room and board and transportation - she does have a part-time job - I think this young lady need to be covering more of her own expenses, not you. She could start budgeting to pay for her own books, get a bus pass or pay you for gas, possibly pay a token amount of rent - make it more "real world" for her.

[Amy in NH]

Starting at age 17, I went to community college & lived at home, and I still had to follow rules such as curfew. In addition to my courses & homework, I worked about 25 hours/week. I had a hand-me-down car from my grandmother; Mom paid the insurance, I paid for gas. There was no bus service in NH then. Mom made my meals at home, I paid for all my own clothes. I might have bought myself a drink at the store now and then. I paid for my first year at school, Mom paid for the second. I always bought my own books & school supplies.

When I went away to college (UNH), and lived off campus with a group of middle class friends, we rode the bus nearly every day (about 45 minutes one-way). We didn't get expensive coffee drinks. We all worked, most of us more than 15 hours/week. Mom paid my rent, I paid my share of the utilities. She bought me some bulk foods at Sam's Club at the beginning of the semester, I bought my weekly groceries.

Like other's have posted, you need to make a list of all her expenses and determine which ones you are willing to share. You also need to decide what other supports you will give her (such as transportation), and what other rules she needs to follow to live in your house. You might want to type it all up like a contract, go over it with her, and both of you sign it. Then, don't bother her about how she spends her money, and make sure she knows that she is not to bother you about how you spend yours. But don't let her manipulate you any.more.

Eventually she'll grow up and appreciate you more.

[H.S. Burrow]

My DD is about to turn 14 and we had an almost *identical* conversation regarding money. Right down to the drama.

I handed her the bills and pulled up our budget spreadsheet. After she entered the bills in the appropriate place, I logged into our online banking and had her watch me reconcile the account.

She stopped complaining when she saw how fast that balance dwindled.

As for the other, I believe that in your place I would start charging her either a flat rate per mile or a flat fee ($25 a month or the cost of a bus pass) for transportation. This is how I would handle my DD. I'm too afraid to put her on public transportation....of course, that could be because we don't have public transportation in my town.

She sounds like she may also need a lesson on budgeting. Sit down and talk with her about how you want to help her. Try for the next 2 months to have her give you all receipts and pay stubs (if you are still claiming her as a dependant, you need this info anyway). Enter all of it into a simple Excel spreadsheet just so she can see where her money is going. Take out money for auto insurance even if she is not paying for it yet. I would, as someone else suggested, charge her a percentage of her income for room and board. If she wasn't living at home, she would have these expenses.

Also, while she is living under your roof and you are paying her bills, she needs to be respectful of you - she should never have left without letting you know she was leaving and with whom. Grown women are kidnapped, raped, and murdered everyday. As an adult, she should never put you through worrying about her.

[enigma]

My older brother was like this. My mother never put a stop to it. he has been in and out of my parents' home his entire adult life. He now had his own apartment across the street from his place of employment, but he lost his driver's license (again) a few months ago, and my father is stuck - at my mother's insistence, since she's physically impaired, and can't do it herself - picking him up once a week to take him grocery shopping and errand running. He doesn't appreciate this. He thinks they owe him this. He expects this service at his convenience, he rarely says thank you, and wouldn't dream of offering gas money.

He'll be fifty in April. Please don't do this to yourself, or your daughter.

[myfunnybunch]

I can't imagine what consequence to give... she is a young adult. I could refuse to drive her around until she is more respectful.

I think that's a great consequence. It fits the situation.

I'd simply offer the consequence, matter-of-factly:

"You were disrespectful toward me.

I am willing to provide xyz (whatever you feel is necessary for her to continue to attend college--a place to live, meals, help with books) and my love, and I offer all of those willingly.

You are not entitled to transportation. I will no longer drive you places unless you literally have no other way to get there (places off the bus line, no friends available) or it is not safe (after 10 p.m. or whatever would be appropriate for your community).

You are responsible for budgeting for these extra items (whatever you expect her to cover--kickboxing shoes, coffee, clothing). You are not entitled to have any other person provide those things for you. If Dad and I choose to pitch in, it will be willingly and lovingly as a gift to you. The best way to ensure that others will want to help us is by being gracious and grateful for the things we're given instead of unhappy over what we haven't gotten.

I love you and I want what's best for you. If you choose to discuss this respectfully, I will listen to what you have to say. I will expect you to listen to what I have to say, and perhaps we can reach a compromise."

Then you turn into a broken record.

If she complains about not having enough money--"That's too bad. I'm sorry you're out of money." If she asks for advice give it, but otherwise, this is her lesson to learn.

If she is disrespectful--"I am sorry. I am willing to have this discussion, but only if we can listen to one another and work toward a compromise. Please let me know when you're ready to discuss this politely."

And so on....

Growing up is hard. Separating is hard. Being responsible for yourself without Mom and Dad steering is hard and scary and exhilarating and emotional. She's feeling all of that and not dealing with it as well as she might. So when everyone is cooled down, maybe a girls night out for coffee or pie...whatever...and some heart-to-heart about growing up are in order. I found that my oldest (not yet an adult, but thinks she should be) and I get along much better if we take the time to touch base when we're both relaxed. When things start to get shaky we have some practice discussing things calmly and coming to compromises, and we know that if we don't resolve it in the moment it won't sit there forever because we can bring it up on our next coffee night.

:grouphug:

Cat

[strider]

Honestly, this is in NO WAY helping her become an adult.

It's better for her to suffer a little now to learn a big lesson, than to suffer years down the road when she is unable to cope.

I think a talk about the cost of living is in order. Be prepared with real figures. Show her the real cost, in dollars, of renting an apartment and buying food and transportation.

Then, inform her that you will not be driving her anywhere, nor will you be buying her clothes or treats. This does not have to be done in a mean or an angry way, but do please be firm, and then follow through.

Make Christmas your goal. Get through to Christmas, and at that point you can buy her treats for the holiday.

:grouphug:

[LisaK in VA]

I started having to pay for *everything* myself at 16. Makeup, summer mission trips/camp, clothing... even my glasses & contact lenses. There was no money -- my parents covered room & board. I paid for college 100% on my own (can you say 3 summer jobs???) I didn't have money for too much -- I didn't starve, but I couldn't just buy whatever I wanted either.

So, you aren't asking too much -- not in any estimation.

She is acting as if you OWE her a living -- you don't owe her anything, and she doesn't sound grateful for what you have been helping her with financially.

Other than the "our house, our rules" and the "if you want to be treated like an adult, act like one" that would have been floated around my house, there are lots of things you *can* do, but if her attitude stinks, it won't matter a bit.

So, here is what I would suggest:

1) Have a sit down. Ask her to list HER expectations of YOU, and why she thinks these are justified.

2) Prepare a list of YOUR expectations of HER, and why you feel they are justified.

3) Each of you create a budget, utilizing basic principles (This was mine at 16: 10% savings, 50% school, 10% charity, 30% spending). From that spending, figure out how much she needs for personal care, clothing, etc.

4) Try to work out a plan, where your daughter will take on more and more responsibilities of her own -- as well as ways you will help (such as books, lab fees, etc.) Try to make it clear to her, that it is your job as her mother to help prepare her for life on her own -- and that you want to make the transition as easy as possible, BUT that while you love her, she needs to begin taking more responsibility for herself NOW.

5) Don't be afraid of the occassional "treat." My mom still treats me from time to time, and I'm almost 40 -- but then, I don't ask for it either -- the "treat" is on her terms and timetable. :D

Most of this is just training and growing up -- and your daughter is probably more scared and frustrated than anything. Becoming an adult is a scary process, better to go through it earlier rather than all at once.

FWIW, my dh and I give our children more responsibility for managing their money each year. They *never* get to spend 100% of their allowance. At first it's just save 50% for college, charity 10% and 40% spend -- but as they get older it becomes save 50% for college, 10% charity, 20% camp and 20% spend... our goal is that by the time they are 18, they pretty much cover all of their personal expenses on their own. Being the meanie I am, I even make them save half their birthday/Christmas money (a 9yo with $100 to spend is a dangerous thing!)

Delayed gratification is a pain... but something most people have to live with all of their lives.

Nothing here is a guarantee of success -- but I hope you and your dd can work things out without going the "my house my rules, and if you don't like it you can leave" method. Sometimes, though, that is the only course of action.:grouphug:

[Karen in CO]

My ds18 and I recently had this discussion just substitute some male posturing for the crying.

The way I approached the subject was "This isn't working for me." My ds and I had a discussion about expectations and responsibilities. He had "forgotten" to come home one night. In most states, you can't report an 18yo missing until 72 hours. I was heartbroken. Somehow to me, this growing up thing is more like a break-up than anything else. We both see the end of the current relationship coming.

For yourself and the other kids that will be reaching this milestone, you need to figure this out. 18 is supposed to be an adult. Happy Birthday and get out. :confused:

You need to talk about

the expenses she is responsible for so that there isn't any misunderstanding or hurt feelings
transportation - public or with a schedule that works for you and minimizes your trips, you aren't a free taxi
curfew and communication. who pays for that cell phone? I am currently paying for my ds's phone, if I call him and he doesn't answer it with a reasonable amount of time, I will disconnect the service
what she sees as the future for her schooling and living arrangements. Is she planning to live with you for 4 years and have you drive her everywhere, cook her meals, wash her clothes, and clean her room? Is that okay with you?

Make a list for yourself of what things you need to discuss and sit down and talk. You will both feel better. My ds and I are working it out, but it is hard. It is hard for me to see him as the adult he has become, and it is hard for him to become the adult he wants to be while still sleeping in the room he grew up in. Our arrangement is good for us, but he is going to college abroad in January. I will be sad that when he is gone, but a little part of me will be relieved because it will reduce the stress in my home.

[Danestress]

And NOT with perfect success, I will admit, is sort of a two pronged approach

(1) I try to figure out what I am willing to do for my child and exactly what strings are attached. For example, "I will pay your tuition, but only if you make reasonable grades." Or "I will allow you to live in this house, but only if you behave in a way that is agreeable."

I think it's a big mistake to have really vague strings attached. It sort of looks like, "I will help you financially, but only if you will tolerate lectures from me on how to use your money and put up with me questioning your expenditures." I know you feel sort of entitled because you give her money, but I personally give my son what I am going to give him, and bite my tongue (sometimes until it *bleeds*) on how he spends his money. I'm only giving what I am giving anyway, so I try to treat the rest of it as "not my business." Even though I am still a parent and would sorely tempted to start a discussion about good money management, I think I would have resisted the urge. Really, wait until she asks. Eventually, the WANT to talk.

(2) My son doesn't live here, but I try to treat him like anyone else when he is visiting. I don't tell other adults what to eat, how to spend money, who to be friends with, even if they were living with me. So I try to give my son that same respect.

However, at the same time, I would never let someone live with me if they planned on staying out until all hours of the night, criticized my cooking, belittled my other children, etc. So I really wouldn't care how old your daughter is, she could be 60 years old, and it would not be okay to be rude, surly, or ungrateful. I don't extend special, "act like a jerk" privileges to blood relatives.

I think we would be having the, "You are 18. You no longer have to live here, and I no longer have to let you. You don't have to take money, I don't have to give it. This is a fully voluntary thing on both of our parts. You can move out tomorrow, and I will absolutely still love you and will want to see you whenever you want to visit, and I won't hold it against you AT ALL, because a lot of people choose not to take help from their parents because of the strings attached, but still love their parents and are loved by them.

But if you want to live here and you want our financial help, you have to behave nicely and basically act like an adult daughter who is living with her parents because they are letting her do so and she's LUCKY to have that."

This is a really hard age in some ways. For them and for us.

[Faith]

Our situation is a little different but this is how we have decided to do it with our 18 year old. He has a full time job, just graduated our home school. He chose NOT to go to college or Vo-Tech at this time but is considering it in the future. (We are hoping he will further his education once he sees how little he makes.;)) He hasn't got a car yet so I take him back and forth the 5 miles to work and 5 miles back. He pays for all gas expenses for my car. He pays for his cell phone (right now it's only $10 a month), all his clothes, his food (his choice on the food as he doesn't like what I fix. He says it's too healthy.. whatever.) He also pays for one prescription that he needs monthly at $32. We pay for his inhaler right now but that will change soon. He pays for his health insurance payment deducted from his check. He pays for his haircuts, grooming needs, etc. He buys his own Starbucks and choices of expensive foods, etc. I try to encourage him to be careful what he buys food wise as there are cheaper options. He doesn't listen and therefore runs out of money quicker. He will learn. I only pay for the roof over his head and his utilities. Sometimes I will pay for something when I feel led to do so. He has to put back $300 out of every check toward a used car. Once he has that, he will be responsible for his insurance and putting it in his name. He also has started an emergency fund with 10% of his bring home pay.

I'm hoping at this point he may go to a local college and further his education. But, I don't know. We have left that up to him. It works for us.

Anyway, our situation is a little different as your daughter does go to college and only works part time so I can see where you might have to pick up some of the expense but I'd sure make her budget her money or she runs out and tough luck. They have to learn and it is so very hard to see them fall. We mom's just want to pick up the pieces all the time but just can't on this one.

Best wishes with your daughter and how you handle it all. (((hugs))) It's hard for them and us.

[Danestress]

Somehow to me, this growing up thing is more like a break-up than anything else. We both see the end of the current relationship coming.




It's SOOOOO true. It's like you break up but resolve to "stay friends."

Sigh.

[Nicole M]

First, I'll just say right up front that I don't have a daughter, so the whole drama thing is a teensy bit foreign to me. Though, I was an 18yo daughter, so I'm sure I dished out a whole lotta drama, but, naturally, I don't remember that. ;)

Everyone has said wonderful things here, really. I just wanted to add a little encouragement on the public transportation issue. If the schedule works out, having your daughter buy her own bus pass (we can purchase them online in our area) and transport herself will probably open a whole new world for her, in a very positive way. I was slow to learn to drive, for a variety of reasons, and riding my bicycle gave me a freedom that was comfortable for me. I wanted the freedom, but was not ready for the responsibility of driving. Some (most?) of us are nervous as we step into the adult world, and taking small, manageable steps can ease the transition. Bus riding might be her ticket.

Another benefit is that on the bus, one encounters, how to say it... "the marginalized" and that can be amazing and wonderful. We just took the bus downtown today, to the art museum (to see the touring St. John's Bible - check it out if it comes to your town!). There were disabled persons, several mentally ill persons, one having a lovely time talking to himself, as well as a whole bunch of ordinary folks, too. One guy I thought for sure was a total nutjob had a brief conversation with the driver as he exited. She said, "I'll be sure to check out that restaurant" and the nutjob said, "oh, you won't be disappointed. It's fantastic!" Regular bus riders form a community, they look out for each other, and in this culture, that's a rather rare and wonderful thing for a young woman to experience as she transitions into adulthood.

So I would encourage you to think about the bus not as a threat, or punishment for not being grateful, but as a wonderful opportunity for your daughter to experience independence and responsibility. It may improve her mood as well.

Good luck!

[paula j]

Oh Honey, I feel your pain. I don't have time to elaborate right now, but we just dropped our 18yo off at college on Wednesday and it did not go swimmingly. I had visions of her introducing us
to her roommmate and showing her siblings around the school, making note of things she still needed and going out to purchase them, a few tears, a flurry of goodbyes and a nice rite-of-passage sigh for everyone. Not to be. Long story short, she made it very clear she did not want any of us to even show up on campus. She procrastinated all week and didn't get everything in the truck or her room completely cleaned out. She threw a snit fit when I made her come back and do it herself rather than emotionally manipulating her sister to do it. I don't know what happened. She was not raised this way. Is it an oldest girl thing? I know this one has struggled with entitlement issues since her next older sister was born 14 years ago.

Sigh. So sorry for us both.

Barb

I have an 18 yo Meghan also and believe me she is the exact same way. She is still in high school for one more year though as she has an August birthday. She worked 4 -5 days a week all summer and didn't save a dime.:glare: We made her quit work when school started back up as she worked till 11 pm and our house is 27 miles from where she worked so she didn't get home till almost midnight and last year her grades started slipping once she started working so we told her grades were more important. Anyway, I too feel your pain. Sometimes I wish I could get my hair done, get my brows waxed, go to any movie I wanted, stop at Mcdonalds every day, buy designer jeans, and not even think about the fact that I'm not saving a dime.:001_huh:

[KatieinMich]

So many of us walking thru path transisitioning kids into adulthood. It is not easy. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is her Dad. How/where does he fit into the equation. When DH and I are not onboard the same page with our teens, it gets rockier.
The sense of entitlement this generation has shocks me on a daily basis.
So as parents we have to figure out what we are abale adn willing to do in helping these kids financially, knowing that we are preparing them for adulthood.
Not showing up for a ride home with out a phone call is just not acceptible. We paid for our teens cell phone bills with the plan that if they don't answer it, we will cancel the phone. Thye knew we were serious. Cell phone in hand, your daughter shoudl be available to tell you where she is.
It doesn't matter who your roommate is, for safety reasons you let them know where you are.
My dh and I differed somewhat when our DS20 was in his first year of collge. DH wanted to help him as much as possible, so he left it vague..you do what you need to do and we will pay for it.
Meaning, get good grades, spend your moeney wisely..etc.
Ok, there are few 18 yr olds who spend their money wisely 100 percent of the time, but kids who dont' have to pay alot of life bills, think there is more there to morrow.
OUr DS20 is now paying all his bills ..due to his choices. Life is calmer at my house and I enjoy him when he comes home and yes, he does now want ato talk to about handling money. He is doing exttremely well at his job, probably will be a store manager here shortly, but college is not an option financially since we quit paying.
Our DS 18 is now graduated and starting college next week. I wrote a few rules.
We will pay for school tuition, books, (as long he keeps his grades up) cell phone ( text messaging plans are extras and I refuse to pay for them) but the rest of his bills are his. That includes deoderant and haircuts.

Ok, I got long winded here. But I am saying get your DH involved or onboard with what you will pay for. If your daughter has the income to take care of herself and buy her own clothes for sports, but has psnet it on Starbucks..then you CAN'T bail her out! She needs to learn that now when the lessons are not so big.

But really big hugs, I know how hard this is!

[Ashleen]

She tells me that it's her right as a middle class American to be taken to college and not have to ride a bus.

I would :smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:an d when I could breathe again I'd take her straight to the bus station. This is one attitude I can't tolerate.

[Ashleen]

I'm thinking about what helped me gain maturity at that age, and these things were key:

1. My parents did not take me anywhere. I had to find my own way around, which often involved the bus or walking (freshmen were not allowed to park on campus at my school).

2. I got a job in the dining hall. It was awful. I was grateful every day for the experience. I was a college kid working there and as awful as it was, I was getting an education and moving on. The rest of the crew consisted of adults who had no education and a severe lack of other options. So I'd come home sweaty and tired and my roommates would ask me why I didn't just quit and do something else, but I really needed to touch base daily with the hard realities of the world. College can seem like an island of people with entitlement issues and the dining hall job kept me grounded.

3. I was responsible for some of my own bills, such as phone and cable. At first I was really bad about procrastinating on these, sometimes to the point of getting notices that they were about to be shut off. But eventually I realized that it was easier to just pay them when they come rather than procrastinate until they become emergencies. And I realized it on my own, not with my mom saying anything to me.

[Kelli in TN]

I can't really add anything to this, most of the responses have been so fantastic.

The only thing I did not see was what happens after you lay down the law?

I can tell you my experience. We had to dish out some very, very tough love. My daughter was not allowed to live here for two summers. We once left her on campus for fall break, she had to get special permission to stay in her dorm and there was no food services on campus. (We gave her a Kroger gift card and let her figure it out). I cannot tell you how many times I ended a conversation on the phone where she was begging and pleading for a place to stay and I was trying to help her stay anywhere but here.

Then this summer her lease ran out 12 days before the dorms open. With fear and trepidation I let her crash here.

She is a different person. She, who was always the only important person in her life, was able to bunk with her sister. She was able to function as a family member instead of a diva. She was more than nice, she was fun to have around. I was not looking forward to her going back to college.

We had a family meeting about her and afterwards I sat her down and told her it was unanimous. The whole family decided that she is now a fun sister and daughter and we are looking forward to fall break with her. If it goes as well as this summer, then we extra excited about Christmas break. If that goes as well, then we'll be giddy by spring break. And if through all that she can stay the wonderful young lady she has become, then next summer it will be a blast to have her here and think of the all money she can save up while she has no living expenses.

Her eyes were bright and shiny with tears as it dawned on her. We always loved her, we always wanted her. But no matter how much your momma, your daddy, your siblings love you, when you treat them like crap they are not going to be able to have you around. It was never her we were pushing away, it was her mean-spirited attitudes towards us. Get rid of the attitude, get back to the girl underneath, and we can't get enough of her.

I tell you this because I have been to dark and ugly places with that girl and we have come out on the other side. I never thought we would. I tell you this to give you a hope.

[Mindy]

Dear, dear Bee :grouphug:.....let her have a small dose of reality and ride the bus. Hang in there honey, I'll say a prayer for you....Mindy

[Cheryl in NM]

I'll preface this with the fact that I have a son and he's only 11.

I agree with others that say she's an adult and you might be doing too much for her. It doesn't matter if she's 18, she's living in your house. If she can't abide by your rules she can find her own place to live. That said, encourage her to take a basic bookkeeping class (it's required for most degree plans anyway). I definitely say, let her ride the bus or arrange for another ride and I would not foot the bill. You are treating her like a minor child. It's great to be supportive, but she needs to stand on her own 2 feet. Yes, she'll make mistakes, some might be big, but that's how she learns. When you were 18 how much did you really learn from the things your parents told you? I learned from my mistakes and some of them were pretty big.

If you have now curfew set for her or any rules about her staying out all night I think you have no recourse for your current situation. I do think that it's the perfect opportunity to set some rules. Simply, common courtesy should be followed, but remember just because she's an adult does not mean she's an equal to you and your dh. She never will be on equal standing with her parents; that's just not the way it was intended to be. You can still respect her, but she needs to realize that she must always show her parents respect in all situations. She now has a greater burden of controling herself and thinking about how what she says and does affects others.

I wish you luck!

[Jugglin'5]

That is wonderful Kelli. I am so happy for you.:grouphug:

I can't really add anything to this, most of the responses have been so fantastic.

The only thing I did not see was what happens after you lay down the law?

I can tell you my experience. We had to dish out some very, very tough love. My daughter was not allowed to live here for two summers. We once left her on campus for fall break, she had to get special permission to stay in her dorm and there was no food services on campus. (We gave her a Kroger gift card and let her figure it out). I cannot tell you how many times I ended a conversation on the phone where she was begging and pleading for a place to stay and I was trying to help her stay anywhere but here.

Then this summer her lease ran out 12 days before the dorms open. With fear and trepidation I let her crash here.

She is a different person. She, who was always the only important person in her life, was able to bunk with her sister. She was able to function as a family member instead of a diva. She was more than nice, she was fun to have around. I was not looking forward to her going back to college.

We had a family meeting about her and afterwards I sat her down and told her it was unanimous. The whole family decided that she is now a fun sister and daughter and we are looking forward to fall break with her. If it goes as well as this summer, then we extra excited about Christmas break. If that goes as well, then we'll be giddy by spring break. And if through all that she can stay the wonderful young lady she has become, then next summer it will be a blast to have her here and think of the all money she can save up while she has no living expenses.

Her eyes were bright and shiny with tears as it dawned on her. We always loved her, we always wanted her. But no matter how much your momma, your daddy, your siblings love you, when you treat them like crap they are not going to be able to have you around. It was never her we were pushing away, it was her mean-spirited attitudes towards us. Get rid of the attitude, get back to the girl underneath, and we can't get enough of her.

I tell you this because I have been to dark and ugly places with that girl and we have come out on the other side. I never thought we would. I tell you this to give you a hope.

[WTMCassandra]

Wow. That is so fantastic!!!! I remember your anguished posts about her before. Way to go, all of you in your family!

[Amy in Orlando]

I'll come clean and admit that I was a HORRIBLE late teen/young adult. I had great, great parents. I was a model student, an athlete, I paid my own way from about age 16 - YET, I was of an entitled mindset. It certainly wasn't my upbringing, just me. There is something about me that just begs I learn it all the hard way. My parents finally, when I was 19, just cut me off completely. They still welcomed me into their home, I just had to find a way to get there. They still wanted me to finish college, I just had to find a way to do it. I'm almost done paying off my student loans (LOL - just in time to send my oldest ds to college). BUT, if my parents had not done what they did, I shudder to think what kind of person I'd have become. I worked three jobs to get through college (using a bicycle and the bus for transportation). I lived in a yucky apartment and actually looked forward to the free lunch from the Hare Krishnas (sp?).

When I talk to my parents now, I know how hard it was for them to just let me loose. But they did the right thing. I was so angry with them at the time, but I KNOW they did the right thing. And, I am grateful to them for doing it. I was stubborn and full of myself and angry and mean and thought everyone owed me something. I hate to think what I would be like now if my parents hadn't taken drastic measures when I was 18-19.

(If it helps, my younger brother and sister were perfectly nice people at this age and still are.)

[Kelli in TN]

When I talk to my parents now, I know how hard it was for them to just let me loose. But they did the right thing. I was so angry with them at the time, but I KNOW they did the right thing. And, I am grateful to them for doing it. I was stubborn and full of myself and angry and mean and thought everyone owed me something. .)


Let me just agree with Amy's parents here. I am trying to think of something I have gone through that was worse than telling my own offspring "Well, you can't come here. Good luck with your life" (not my actual words to her, just the attitude I had to put on to survive) Unless you have been the parent in that situation you cannot appreciate the middle of the night sobbing in your husband's arms (while he sobs too) that goes with the whole tough love scenario.


And Amy pointed out that she was welcome in her parents' home and this reminds of me something I should have pointed out last night. Unless you are dealing with an extreme situation (where the adult child is actually endangering you, your property or your other children) you want to temper that tough love with the other kind of love. That will look different for each family. In our case we provided some financial support to our daughter. We paid for her cell phone, auto insurance, most of her medical expenses (I prefer not to elaborate, but there were certain copays and such that we did not consider standard care and so after insurance was applied to the bill she had to pay the rest)and we dropped $25 per week into her bank account so she would not have to work so many hours and could concentrate on her studies. She was welcome to come get a meal at our house and in fact if I cooked a favorite of hers I would call her and tell her to come over. We paid for her books, we helped her through things like appealing for a second chance when she lost her scholarship, helping her when her nutso roommate went over the edge, stuff like that.

So we were always in her corner and she knew it, but she could not stay in our house and treat us like garbage.

I think tough love is just another word for boundaries and the boundaries in every relationship have to be customized for the situation.

[Beth in OH]

I just want to add my voice to the chorus of parents who have recently trod this path in less than graceful fashion. My dd is going to experience her freshman year in a manner that I never envisioned. She will be living in an apartment with friends, commuting to community college (with hopes of transferring to big state U) and working 20-25 hours per week. We will pay for half of college and living expenses (per agreed upon budget) as long as she maintains a good GPA as a full-time student. Any scholarships or financial aid can be used to pay her half of the cost. No other strings, but no other bail-outs, either.

I have also been forced into a parenting role that I never envisioned. When dd was 16, she was headed toward great scholarship opportunities at some good schools. She had great ACT scores and an interesting transcript/extra-curriculars. She desired these things for herself. As a senior, these opportunities materialized, but dd's life vision had changed (hopefully not permanently). All of the pitfalls of emerging adulthood mentioned in the other posts (entitlement, bad treatment of home/parents/siblings, laziness, friend/boyfriend compulsiveness, etc.) presented themselves in dd's life. We were completely thrown for a loop! Over time, we realized that dd wasn't going to respond to our "guidance" (read: lecturing, haranguing, confused pleading, tearful emotion, rules with consequences, patient instruction assuming increased maturity would eventually kick in). We began to see her as an adult who was consciously making bad choices.

Dd chose not to pursue any of her original college options. Instead, she plans to attend state U, but has to begin at community college, because she didn't apply to state U before the deadline. She has moved into an apartment with several older friends. Two years ago, I could never have approved of an 18 yo in an apartment with financial support from me. After our life experiences with dd over the past two years, however, I actually think it's the best choice for her. This path is the one she chose for herself. Ultimately, this is the most important aspect of dd's current plans.

I always thought I was parenting with an open hand. BWAA HAAA HAAA! God had to pry my hands open with this child, and I had to submit to Him. He has taught me many lessons! Good parents and good homeschooling parents can have children who struggle--even children who do bad things. Nevertheless, God loves those children just as much as He loves the ones who behave well. Their lives are ultimately between them and God. Parents are important to children, but in the end, the child has his own mind and will. We can't direct their lives.

Good luck to all of you! You can probably tell that this thread hits close to home!

Beth

[WTMCassandra]

As a senior, these opportunities materialized, but dd's life vision had changed (hopefully not permanently). All of the pitfalls of emerging adulthood mentioned in the other posts (entitlement, bad treatment of home/parents/siblings, laziness, friend/boyfriend compulsiveness, etc.) presented themselves in dd's life. We were completely thrown for a loop! Over time, we realized that dd wasn't going to respond to our "guidance" (read: lecturing, haranguing, confused pleading, tearful emotion, rules with consequences, patient instruction assuming increased maturity would eventually kick in). We began to see her as an adult who was consciously making bad choices.

Beth, first of all, :grouphug:. Thank you for posting this. I'm not the OP, but I'm looking ahead toward these years. I don't want to hijack this thread too much, but if you could go back and tell your mother-of-preteen-self something, what would it be? Would you do anything differently at the younger ages if you could do it again? What do you think caused the shift in DD's values?

[BMW]

OP person chiming back in... So, yesterday daughter called her x-boyfriend, who picked her up (she never did tell me) and she spent a few hours at his house. Then she went to work and called me, saying that she might need picked up about 10pm, but she might be able to get a ride. She made no mention of what took place. I got a call about 9pm telling me that she had a friend who could bring her home. She came in at 5am.

So, I went to her room at about 9am and said that she didn't have to ask permission to go places with friends, etc., but that she does have a midnight curfew at this time and I am to know who she is with (just keep me informed, basically). I said that she cannot come in later than that at this time and continue to live here. I said that I am not providing her transportation to college anymore, she'll have to figure that out. I also said that she couldn't "have" my extra van, she could use it when she gets her license and pays for insurance. I let her know that I do not answer to her, that I do not owe her...

She was not very nice. She blew up again about me not listening to her and twisted yesterdays events into being my fault and blamed me and was disrespectful. She also said that she didn't care about having to get a place to stay and get rides, she could handle that, but that what she wants is a good relationship with me... and she got quite dramatic... I told her that I was done with the conversation and left and she called out, "You're the one walking away." Yep, for my mental health!! I had to deal with years of her dad twisting everything I did or said around and saying that everything was always my fault... he was never respectful of me and displayed that to the children. I can't live with those relationships... sorry... no happening... I will take care of myself.

Not.fun. I have a headache...

Thanks a gazillion for taking the time to write to me.

Bee

[Dayle in Guatemala]

but those I've read have good advice. Stop doing things for her.

My oldest is only 14, I'm not there. All I can say is what I've seen with other friends and my own family.

A child is an adult when they can handle life for themselves. When they are taking responsibility for their own bills, when they are working hard toward obtaining goals (ie: college, trade school, internship, etc.), and when they make consistent, responsible decisioins.

If they are expecting you to do things for them such as rides, buying things, providing, then they aren't mature enough to really be treated as an adult by you. I think since she is living in your house, she needs to obey by your rules.

When I was in college and went home on breaks, my parents' house rules were obeyed. Period. We were in their home and we respected their rules. There were one or two times that they had to remind us that we could always get an apartment or house of our own if we wanted to. They meant it!

:grouphug:I'm so sorry you are going through this. I hope all works out well for you!

[WTMCassandra]

She was not very nice. She blew up again about me not listening to her and twisted yesterdays events into being my fault and blamed me and was disrespectful. She also said that she didn't care about having to get a place to stay and get rides, she could handle that, but that what she wants is a good relationship with me... and she got quite dramatic... I told her that I was done with the conversation and left and she called out, "You're the one walking away." Yep, for my mental health!! I had to deal with years of her dad twisting everything I did or said around and saying that everything was always my fault... he was never respectful of me and displayed that to the children. I can't live with those relationships... sorry... no happening... I will take care of myself.

Not.fun. I have a headache...

Thanks a gazillion for taking the time to write to me.

Bee

Bee, I'm so sorry. :grouphug:

I didn't realize there were other dynamics playing in to this--your DD's exposure to her dad's tactics.

You are right that you deserve to be treated with respect! You sound sad but strong--Hang in there!:grouphug:

[Kelli in TN]

She was not very nice. She blew up again about me not listening to her and twisted yesterdays events into being my fault and blamed me and was disrespectful. She also said that she didn't care about having to get a place to stay and get rides, she could handle that, but that what she wants is a good relationship with me... and she got quite dramatic... I told her that I was done with the conversation and left and she called out, "You're the one walking away." Yep, for my mental health!! I had to deal with years of her dad twisting everything I did or said around and saying that everything was always my fault... he was never respectful of me and displayed that to the children. I can't live with those relationships... sorry... no happening... I will take care of myself.



Just so you know that you are not crazy, my daughter used to pull the same stuff. I would walk away thinking "Is it me? Am I the one in the wrong here? I usually came here and posted the events of the day and asked the hive 'Is it me? Am I the one in the wrong here?'" Things can get so twisted that you can no longer tell what is normal.

[Beth in OH]

Things can get so twisted that you can no longer tell what is normal.

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

A good mind, an entitlement attitude and strong verbal skills are a deadly combination.

[BMW]

She and I sat down with her x-boyfriend (they are very good friends) and after a while my new dh joined in. I told her that from now on, if we had to talk about things, we needed to do it with another person because I need to take care of myself - I need to know that what I say is not twisted or manipulated. During the talk it came out that she had distorted our talk yesterday to her x... he got a better picture of what really happened (he thought I'd dropped her off in a bad part of town and left her... I said, nope, I told her she owed me an apology before getting a ride and that she walked away, talking on her phone and was no where around and I tried calling her, she didn't answer, and then I left).

Anyway, I basically stuck to a few basic rules: we don't discuss anything without a witness, if there is a conflict and that I might end the conversation and that is that... I wont drive her around during daytime hours, I will pick her up any time that it is dark... and that if it is dark, I am to know where she is and when she'll be back.

So, here's hoping that she gets her rides to college worked out this week... and if not, I will have to disappear each morning or I am sure to give in...

[Beth in OH]

Great questions, which I have pondered extensively, but for which I have no great answers. My journey as the parent of this child has been one of enormous spiritual growth. I truly believe God has used my family to increase my own spiritual maturity. These beliefs will color my attempts to answer your questions. My answers definitely won't be everyone's cuppa. Readers, you have been forwarned.

but if you could go back and tell your mother-of-preteen-self something, what would it be?

I would say, "Self, your job is to follow God's call with each parenting decision and action. That is your own contract with God. Now, self, despite your following His call each step of the way, He may have plans for your child that break your heart. He may allow her to wander in a desert as part of her own spiritual journey. You will hate it, but you have your own relationship with God to carry you through. Self, don't let pride deceive you. No matter what you do as a parent, you don't control your child's outcome. Only God has that authority. You have to trust God completely with your child."


Would you do anything differently at the younger ages if you could do it again?

My child has been one to push the envelope her entire life. There has been no serious "failure" in her upbringing. ( I say this with confidence now, but I couldn't have a year ago. Much prayer, and even a little counseling, has brought me to this point of confidence.) If anything, the logic that great parenting would produce great kids, probably prevented me from turning fully go God even sooner. I naively thought we could do something to improve our dd's behavior as an older teen. Actually, once an older teen is no longer interested in living by your rules, there's not a lot you can do to stop it. It would be pretty drastic to remove a minor from your home. Our dd's behavior was nowhere near warranting that result. I have come to believe that disciplining an older teen actually requires a great deal of compliance on their part. You can't control them. Even God doesn't control them.

The one thing I would have done differently involves me. I would have built a deeper daily relationship with God much earlier in my life. I have been a committed Christian for more than 20 years, but my relationship with God is more personal now than it ever has been.

What do you think caused the shift in DD's values?

I'm not sure if dd's values changed or if she finally began acting upon her own beliefs rather than ours. That is part of the developmental separation thing that some of the other posters mentioned. In truth, dd's behavior is not extreme for kids of her generation, despite being extreme for our family. I think that like many young adults/older adolescents, she has bought into a world value system that it's all about "self". As I have truly turned this child over to God, I have found peace with the idea that He will bring her into relationship with Him in His time. Just like I did. Just like everyone must. I couldn't have said this a year ago. God is good.

Heavy stuff. I hope my journey helps someone.

Beth