Has anybody seen a chart that compares CM and WTM approach to narration/dictation?

[MelissaMinNC]

I guess I would love to see them side by side, the philosophies and the methods. I can't quite figure out what I'm doing in this area, and I think seeing the whys and hows all lined up would help me.

Thanks in advance, :)
Melissa

[Colleen in NS]

http://67.202.21.157/articleindex.php

Look under the "curricula" section for some helpful Charlotte Mason/WTM articles/comparisons.

[Trivium Academy]

First the WTM article on narration
http://www.welltrainedmind.com/narration.php

Charlotte Mason:
Parker Family interpretation
http://home.att.net/~bandcparker/narration.html (http://home.att.net/%7Ebandcparker/narration.html)

More comparison links
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:IhMkplgqqWYJ:www.amblesideonline.or g/AOcompared.shtml+Well-Trained+Mind+and+Charlotte+Mason+comparison&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us&client=firefox-a
or http://www.amblesideonline.org/AOcompared.shtml (http://www.amblesideonline.org/AOcompared.shtml)

http://www.normanjamesacademy.com/charlotte_mason_and_classical_education.html



I can't seem to get on the Ambleside website but there were a few things I read there about narrations that seemed to be different from WTM, SOTW. Of course as a user of SOTW, I've used the narration guidelines in the activity guide and in First Language Lessons.

But until I read at Ambleside more I didn't realize these factors:
- the outward narration isn't as important as the inward, the mental training it takes a child to listen and put the information in order in their head and retell it is what makes narration effective
- choose narration worthy books, if the child is interested in the book they will be able to narrate from it easier which will build their confidence, and in turn will help the narration training process

I struggled for a while to get my dd7 to narrate from SOTW- we struggled. I thought that the narrations had to be just like the samples that were provided of what was "acceptable". Guess what? I wasn't narrating from the right text! Of course my dd would listen to me from SOTW but she would have narrated more easily from Winnie-the-Pooh or Charlotte's Web, books that held her attention.

I felt like such a failure as a parent and teacher when dd couldn't narrate from SOTW, I had all these examples in front of me showing me how it was supposed to be done, what the answer were supposed to be like- parents here sharing their own children's narrations and I had been missing the mark the entire time!

The steps of starting narrations are different as well, from Ambleside (again, I can't link b/c I cannot get on the website for some reason) but I read that you're to start with a paragraph, not pages or a whole section at a time. What finally helped me was to focus on 1 event, read about it and then ask dd to narrate it. That got us somewhere but our narrations are much better now than they were then b/c we've been using our read alouds in literature instead of SOTW or other academic type readings.

My dd can't wait to do her narration, she actually stops me from reading to tell me her thoughts, what she thinks is happening in the story we're reading. It happened numerous times when I was reading "The Door in the Wall" to her. It happened again today when I read "Johann Gutenberg and the Amazing Printing Press" but it didn't happen when I read "Renaissance Artists Who Changed the World".

The book you're reading from has to capture their attention before you can expect them to narrate it. They have to be eager to read it or be read from it. Set your child up to succeed.

Okay, novel done...

[Alana in Canada]

Thanks, Jessica (and others!). You've underscored how important it is for me to return to having my seven year old narrate with Aesop's Fables. She loves them and they are the appropriate sized "chunk" for her to narrate at this age.

[MelissaMinNC]

Even though I still feel like I don't know what I'm doing. :rolleyes:

I'll muddle through this somehow - I feel so bad for my firstborn (guinea pig).

:)
Melissa

[prairiegirl]

I have been hashing this around in my brain for the last few weeks. I am at the point now where I need to know what I am going to follow, whether it is going to be WTM's way of narration, copywork and dictation or CM's way.

This is how I see it: WTM does narration, copywork and dication as a process towards writing. These are only done for the first four grades. (copywork is done only in the first grade.)

With CM, narration is done to prepare a child for writing. Where WTM uses narration as just getting the bare facts from the child, CM encourages children to remember as much of the passage as they can using descriptive words. Dictation is used for spelling as copywork is used for handwriting practice. These things are also used for a much longer time than WTM does.

Do I have this right?

My question is how do you teach the writing process effectively with CM when all you are doing is narrating? I don't see how that can be carried out? I like using dictation for spelling. I think this would benefit my oldest. But I also like how SWB uses these three things for writing. This makes sense to me.

I guess my question is can you use dictation for spelling and writing or is that muddying up the waters? Or am I putting way too much thought into this? :D


Julia
mom of 3 (8,7,5)

[OneRoomHomeSchool]

I guess my question is can you use dictation for spelling and writing or is that muddying up the waters?

Hmmm, I guess I don't really see how you could use dictation for writing, other than for mechanics. Maybe you meant mechanics though? :)

Narration is a way, as Jessica said, to really learn to process your thoughts and then output them in a logical order....that is where your going to get 'training' for true writing, IMO. Narration from GOOD literature, rather than a history 'textbook' or science type 'textbook' is also going to help give your child a good vocabulary and great grammar in which to narrate with...therefore later on giving them also, good output through the pencil in creative writing, along with logical ordering output with the pencil.

[Alana in Canada]

Take a look at what SWB wrote in the chapter called "The Three Stages" (http://www.peacehillpress.com/) on copy work and dictation. Dictation, she writes, enables a child to "hold larger and larger chunks of text in his mind" before he writes.

That's a bit more than just mechanics. (Did that sound snarky? I didn't mean it to).

[OneRoomHomeSchool]

(Did that sound snarky? I didn't mean it to).

No, not at all! :D

I was speaking about dictation/narration along the CM lines. I, personally, feel that narration is the major pre-cursor for writing, not dictation. Just my .02 ;)

[Trivium Academy]

My understanding:

Narration is a tool to help a child develop mental discipline and listening skills. Being able to retell back what you've heard is not a simple task esp. for children who are not auditory learners. Being able to put the events in sequence in their mind and retell it the same way they heard it helps them to be able to write but that doesn't really come into play until you've moved from doing oral narration to written narration. CM thought that children needed a lot of time to work on oral narrations before transitioning into written. (this differs in WTM) Simply Charlotte has written narration in 4th and not before.

Copywork and Dictation are for learning mechanics and absorbing how to write. Copywork refines the writing skill of the child, mental discipline by forcing the child to pay close attention the item they are copying. Children are also exposed to different mechanics, usage and grammar through copywork which make them familiar with it. Later dictation puts the knowledge absorbed by copywork into action, it also tests what areas the child needs more instruction in regarding spelling, phonics, mechanics, usage and grammar.

That's my understanding based on what I've read about it and I just had to read a WHOLE bunch to give a talk to other homeschoolers about these elements of classical education. I talked very fast, lol.

[Alana in Canada]

Thanks for your graciousness! I'm having a bad day. :)

[OneRoomHomeSchool]

I can't give the specifics off the top of my head as to the WTM side of the 'chart' mentioned in the OP...but again from the CM side:

CM did not teach grammar through dictation as is commonly believed.

CM used narration for composition. The child re-tells something they’ve read or heard. This can be oral or written (as Jessica did point out in her 2nd reply). This process of narration *is* composition right on up till high school age. In high school, the child takes more formal writing courses.

CM used copywork (of excellent literary passages) for handwriting practice, not for grammar or spelling.

CM used dictation for spelling, not for grammar.

So, now you can compare SWB's article that you linked to these CM tidbits re: dictation and narration/composition. :D

*I* am not going to say which is better or best...just giving you 1 side of the 'chart' ya wanted! ;)