Could we discuss math programs?

[sclisa]

My ds (newly 9) is currently in ps. This is his first ps year, and he will be hs'd again next year. He'll be at the 3rd/4th grade level at that point. I'm not really concerned with "grade level" at this point, only with getting him remediated (for lack of a better word). He did have speech issues when he was younger, but those have been completely resolved, and he is moderately affected by his ADHD.

Ok, that was mostly his history in a nutshell. The problem is that I have watched him lose previously mastered skills such as basic math facts. At ps, he has reverted to finger counting. Because of his ADHD, he is very resistant to any afterschooling in math. Being in school all day is extremely draining for him. I would like to pull him from ps now, but dh feels strongly that he should finish the year.

Now, for my questions. He's very kinesthetic and needs either "screen time" or "hands on" activities to cement information. I've been looking at Professor B, and I think it would work well for him. However, there is also MUS and RS. Of course, R&S also looks very solid (but isn't really tailored to his learning style). Do any of the programs I mentioned sound as if they might fit ds? If so, should I start at a lower level (or even at the beginning) and move through quickly to remediate? Should I consider one of the "hands on" programs but add R&S for its solid approach? Are there any programs that you know of that might be better? Finally, do any of the programs that I mentioned have serious gaps that you are aware of?

Whew! Sorry for the inundation of questions. I think that I have settled on everything else besides math. I feel it's very important to have a strong foundation in this subject, so I would appreciate any input whatsoever.

Thank you,
Lisa

[Denisemomof4]

I actually think you're wasting your time keeping your child in school. Please let your husband know about my experience.

I pulled my daughter out due to cluster migraines. She has gone a solid month without migraines, something that does NOT happen during the school year. She never suffered migraines in summer.

Anyway, I pulled her out during the Christmas break and I regret ever having put her in school. She started a strong reader for someone who had only completed kindergarden, and she seems to be gifted in math. I was horrified to see constant finger counting and she knew NO math facts off the top of her head. After schooling through January I can see real gains.

I feel the school excelled in teaching good writing skills. My daughter journaled in first grade and had some form of writing almost every day. But aside from that I can say that her year and a half in PS set her back and I'm basically taking the rest of this year to get her caught up. I'm confident she'll be ready for the third grade on time.

How is your sons spelling? While my daughter was READING well, there was no phonetic instruction so all I taught her was forgotten the year and a half she was in school. Although she's a very good reader I've back tracked and am doing the second year of our phonics program for her SPELLING ALONE. She thinks it's baby work but since she's already seeing spelling gains, she's agreeing that it's good for her.

The longer the time your son spends in school, the more time you're going to have to catch him up to where he needs to be. That's been my experience, and that's the common scenario with public school. My older two boys are in PS and I really regret it. My oldest is in 10th grade and he took the PSAT this year and scored in the 99% which is quite an accomplishment since most taking the PSAT are in 11th grade. His English teacher sought him out to see where he had gotten his English instruction because they knew it didn't come from the public school system. We used Rod & Staff exclusively from 3rd grade on.

I'm trying to figure out the math ideas myself right now. I'm not really crazy about Saxon and am thinking of supplementing with MUS or Singapore. I will DEFINITELY switch out of Saxon for Algebra. You can read my other posts to see why.

HTH
Denise

[sclisa]

I will absolutely share your experience with dh, but am doubtful it will have the desired effect. :sigh: I'm so glad that you were able to bring your dd home and are already seeing positive changes. Ds has actually been home for the past 3 days with a wicked case of strep throat, and I mentioned to dh that I'd like nothing better than to keep him home for school. It was not well received. :rolleyes:

Hmmm...his spelling isn't horrible, but he struggles with words that fall outside of the "rules." kwim? He does usually recognize that he's spelled something incorrectly, but doesn't know how to fix it. His school doesn't use a traditional spelling program, but an innovative "hands on", group-based approach. I've never seen anything like it, but I am forced to admit that it hasn't been a bad experience for ds.

I also wanted to mention that I wholeheartedly agree with your thoughts on Saxon. Not that it doesn't work well for some families, but it's not for us. We tried with our olders, but it just isn't the program for us.

I'll continue to hope/pray for the best for ds this year and will continue my research on math programs. Oh, and kudos to you regarding your ds & his language skills! We had a similar experience. One of my dd's is a freshman in ps high school this year. She competed in a district competition for Future Business Leaders of America (Public Speaking division) and won second place. She'll be going on to the State competition! Her teachers couldn't believe that she was able to write such a winning speech, nor could they believe that she was so mature in her delivery. They, too, made the comment that her prowess did not come from a ps education. At least it made me feel as if I didn't completely botch the job. :D

My thanks to you for your thoughts, and I wish you the best with your dd.

Lisa

[ELaurie]

Now, for my questions. He's very kinesthetic and needs either "screen time" or "hands on" activities to cement information. I've been looking at Professor B, and I think it would work well for him.

Do any of the programs I mentioned sound as if they might fit ds? If so, should I start at a lower level (or even at the beginning) and move through quickly to remediate?
Finally, do any of the programs that I mentioned have serious gaps that you are aware of?

I have used Prof B Math successfully with my ds 8 for the past three years.
Like your ds, he is a very "kinesthetic" learner", and has issues with attention and focusing.

Professor B Math is a very engaging math program. Concepts are generally presented in the form of "stories" which are easily applied and retained. Professor B capitalizes on our innate ability to remember teh sequence of events in stories, and presents concepts in ways that are easily integrated as problem solving approaches, rather than having children memorize series of "steps" to solve a problem.

I use the Professor B Math CD, and a workbook with my dc. I would recommend starting with the level 1 CD, even if it includes some review. It will cement the facts he already knows, and introduce both of you to the approach. The level 1 CD is described as covereing grades K - 2, but you will find that Prof B has children adding and subtracting numbers in teh100 trillions, including exchanging (borrowing and carrying) - these concepts aren't usually covered in typical K-2 Math programs.

Here's an excerpt from a post further down the board about Prof B Math.

You will find that Professor B doesn't teach things like how to read dates on a calendar, how to read and create graphs, how to use number lines, or how to do weights and measures. He doesn't cover geometry in the grade school programs, as far as I know. If I lived in a state where standardized testing were required, or if / when I decide to test my dc, I will check to see what is on the tests and prepare them. For now, we handle learning about weights and measurements as part of "everyday life math", and my dc encounter graphs in science. They know how to read a calendar, they know the names of shapes, etc.

If you're concerned about these additional areas, you might want to simply add one of the workbooks that are readily available these days at places like Barnes and Noble, which are designed for students to cover in the summer months, and cover some of these basic concepts.

I think Prof B recommends Singapore Math if you feel you must supplement.

This program has worked extremely well for us.

Have you looked at the sample CDs?

Prof B Math (http://www.profb.com/Shop.aspx)

[sclisa]

It was really helpful to read what topics aren't covered. My state doesn't require testing, but I usually do test every other year or so. I will probably supplement, but I really do like the approach Professor B uses.

Yes, I've looked at the CD samples online, and I'm quite impressed. I think it will be a good approach to use with ds. So, you said you use the CD. Have you ever used the books? I'm assuming you like the CD better. Is that because it's simply a better format for your child? I am thinking this is the route I will go, especially since I'll likely use a workbook-based program as a supplement.

Aside from some isolated concepts not addressed by Professor B, can you think of any other downsides? Was it the format that drew you to this program and caused you to stay with it?

Thanks for your thoughts. They've been very helpful. :)

Lisa

[ELaurie]

I hae used Professor B Math for the past three years, and it has worked very well for us.


There have been a nuber of threads recently about Professor B Math - you might seacch for them to see if they comtain any helpful info.



The CD is worth it's weight in gold - one I purchased the CDs, I never opened the book again. The CD is easy to use, scripted, and fun!

I don't supplement with another program, because Professor B Math is rigorous enough in itself, however, he doesn't teach things like how to read dates on a calendar, how to read and create graphs, how to use number lines, or how to do weights and measures. He doesn't cover geometry in the grade school programs, as far as I know. If I lived in a state where standardized testing were required, or if / when I decide to test my dc, I will check to see what is on the tests and prepare them. For now, we handle learning about weights and measurements as part of "everyday life math", and my dc encounter graphs in science. They know how to read a calendar, they know the names of shapes, etc.

If you're concerned about these additional areas, you might want to simply add one of the workbooks that are readily available these days at places like Barnes and Noble, which are designed for students to cover in the summer months, and cover some of these basic concepts.

I think Prof B recommends Singapore Math if you feel you must supplement.

This program has worked extremely well for us.

Have you looked at the sample CDs?

Prof B Math (http://www.profb.com/Shop.aspx)

[Sue in St Pete]

Hi Lisa,

We have used MUS for years and have been very happy with it. While I don't think ds has ADHD, his nickname is "Our Lord of Perpetual Motion". MUS is good because it is clear and concise. If you decided on it, I would suggest just using the placement test at the website to determine where to start. Also, give your son the test first to see if he already knows the material. If he does well, skip the lesson. That's always fun.

I have zero knowledge of Professor B, however, if it is computer based, that might work even better.

You can read my detailed review of MUS here:
http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4793

Good luck!

[Kathie in VA]

If you are going to keep him in school but really want to work on his skills AND he is too tired for more bookwork THEN perhaps you should just consider supplementary material like:

Right Start Math Games (I have these but don't get to them very often.)
or perhaps just get him the RS abacus to use for his math homework

Knock Out (addition/subtraction game w/marbles but they have others for mult, div, etc.)

TimezAttack (computer game, basic version is a free download... My kids love this game)

hth

[sclisa]

Thanks, Sue. I did go to your review, and it was both detailed and informative. I'll consider this for ds, but am still leaning toward Professor B. The reason for the direction of my lean is that Professor B is computer based, and I think my son would really connect with it. However, I won't completely discount MUS now that I have read your review, because I think he might enjoy the DVDs as well as the manipulatives. Basically, I think the reason I am having a difficult time choosing is that I am nervous about starting a new program at his age. I'm worried that we'll *never* catch up if I have to go all the way back to the beginning, kwim? I'm sure it will work out fine in the end; it's just my usual worry cycle. :D

Thanks again, and I love your nickname for your ds! :)

Lisa

[sclisa]

Excellent suggestions. I hadn't thought of the RS games, and I love the thought of using the abacus for homework. I really, really love that idea; thank you! I'm not at all familiar with Knock Out or TimezAttack, but I've written them down and will look at them tonight.

Still loving the abacus suggestion...

Lisa

[ELaurie]

So, you said you use the CD. Have you ever used the books? I'm assuming you like the CD better. Is that because it's simply a better format for your child? I am thinking this is the route I will go, especially since I'll likely use a workbook-based program as a supplement.

Aside from some isolated concepts not addressed by Professor B, can you think of any other downsides? Was it the format that drew you to this program and caused you to stay with it?

Thanks for your thoughts. They've been very helpful. :)

Lisa

Hi SC Lisa.

I do have the books, and used them briefly with my ds before the CD became available. In the CDs, it's obvious that Professor B has streamlined the teaching / learning process, eliminating steps that are repetitions, and explaining concepts simply and clearly. I can't tell you how often I've had a new insight about the relationships between concepts as I am teaching my dc while using this program.

The CD is scripted, which makes teaching effortless and fun, both for me and for my dc. I love the way Professor B challenges the child to do his best, saying" I think i will catch you this time - you will really have to concentrate :)" all the while setting the child up for success and mastery. IMO, this playful tone did not translate as well in the text books.

The Cd has been a good fit for us in other ways as well - it's a break from our "sitting at the school table" routine, and a change of pace from my usual way of instruction. It's as if we're learning from Professor B together, which is nice for my ds. The fact that there is a minimal amount of handwriting required in the program has been a plus for us; it's also nice that my dc can snuggle next to me at teh computer if they are so inclined, but they can also literally pace around the room, or hop on one foot if they need to get their wiggles out to concentrate on the lesson.

I think what draws me to this program is Professor B's genius for making mathematical concepts crystal clear, in ways that learners can readily grasp and retain. The technique he uses to teach upper subtraction facts on the sample CD is a great example of this - If ds ever forgets how to do these problems, which is very rare, because he really has mastered them, I simply need to say "Do you see this hot delicious pizza?' and he says "OK, I know how to do it now," because he has internalized the stories. I see that as invaluable, because he has the tools he needs to solve problems readily available.

The only downside for us, and this has been fairly minimal, is that the drills do become repetitiious for him after awhile. This year, I am using triangle flash cards, "Hot Dots" (http://edushop.edu4kids.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1440) flash cards, multiplication songs, and the TImez Attack (http://www.bigbrainz.com/index.php) game to add a bit of variety for him. I did this last year when he was mastering addition and subtraction facts as well. I don;t really think this is a fault of the program per se; it seems reasonable to me that he would enjoy some variety.

Other than that, I an only add that I think Professor B is a genius :) and the statistics on his website speak for themselves.

If you decide to try it, have fun and let me know how it works out for your dc!

[sclisa]

Thanks, Elaurie. At this point, I'm about 99.9% sure that I will go with Professor B. I will let you know once I order and we begin using it. Also, I wanted to thank you for linking to Timez Attack. Interestingly, someone else recommended this to me last night, but I hadn't had the opportunity to research it. I had never heard of this product until last night, and I had no idea (until you linked to it) what an appealing product this is! This will be high on my list to buy as well. I *know* ds will love it. Just curious...do you know of anything similar for addition/subraction facts? Thanks again!

Lisa

[ELaurie]

HI Lisa,

I haven't discovered anything quite as much fun for + & - facts, but I'm still searching, so I'll post if I do find something. Right now I'm using the free download with my ds, and haven't purchased the upgrade. The free games include multiplication facts through 12 X 12, and from what another poster here said, the full version covers the same facts, but adds more games and variety.

[sclisa]

Please do post if you find anything similar for add/sub. facts. In the meantime, I'll still be indebted to you for all of your assistance with Prof. B! :D

Lisa

[Audrey]

This is not curriculum and I don't know if a person would try to use it as such, but this IS a great site I found that has online activities for basic facts and more advanced facts.

My ds doesn't even count it as "doing school" that's how much he likes it. I've seen a lot of improvement from him since he's started having a "practise session" here everyday. We keep the practise short (say 5 minutes or so), but it's still helpful.

http://www.aaamath.com/

Click on the side bar for topics in addition, subtraction, multiplication, fractions, etc., etc., etc. It will take you to a page with links to the topics and lessons in that area. All the lesson activities are online.

Edited to add: This is a FREE site.

[ELaurie]

Thaks Audrey! I'll check it out : )