The Complete Writer: Writing with Ease (WWE) -- All separate threads merged here

[Colleen in NS]

Is Volume 2 a book for logic stage writing? If so, do you have any time frame (like say, in the next four years, as ds is starting 5th grade next year :)) for when you hope this will be published? How about Volume 3 (rhetoric? publication timeframe?)?

Did you mention elsewhere that the series is based on your writing CD? I took extensive notes on that CD (just in grammar stage so far - it was a learning curve for me!) and I'm wondering if the books would expand on what you talk about on the CD. If so, how?

Finally, would you recommend your writing book series in ADDITION to R&S writing exercises, or instead of, or any combination of the two? If so, why and for what levels?

Thanks so much! I'm trying to determine if I should purchase Volume 1 for any reason.....and of course, if I should purchase the others when they come out. :)

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Volume 2 will cover logic stage (5-8) and Volume 3 will cover high school (9-12). No pub schedule yet (sorry!). But you have good options available for logic and rhetoric-stage options--it's the development of those basic writing skills that I find REALLY lacking in writing programs.

Yes, the books expand on the writing CD, giving much more detailed year-by-year breakdowns of what skills to teach when and how.

The writing book needs a grammar program to go along w/it, but you wouldn't do the R&S writing (or any other writing program) along with it.

HTH

[Debra in CO]

Susan,

It's probably somewhere that I've missed... but when is this writing book of yours supposed to be coming out? I know I will need it, and I want to set aside some tax refund money...

Debra
Mom of five, ages 1-10

[PinkInTheBlue]

Where is volume 1 for writing? I don't see any such writing book at PeaceHillPress.com What am I missing? Thanks!

[Susan Wise Bauer]

and we'll have it up for preorder soon at Peace Hill Press.

It's already for sale on Amazon, but you could always wait and order it from us! you'll get free shipping and more!

I'll keep you posted.

[Quiver0f10]

Susan,

If an 7th grader had weak witing skils, would you have them start in book 1 or book 2 anyhow?

[PinkInTheBlue]

Haha...you're being funny. Of course I'll be waiting to order it from Peace Hill! :) I'm so excited.

What ages/grade would you call Level 1 most for? What, if anything, would you recommend students have completed before beginning? We've been using R&S English for a few years. One more question to bug you with: you don't recommend using R&S for writing along with but R&S has SO much writing in its English. Do you prefer an alternative grammar for approximately 4th - 5th grade to go along with your new writing curriculum?

Thank you!

[Debra in CO]

Thank you! And I'll be waiting until June!

:)

Debra

[mcconnellboys]

So, Susan, if we are going to have a fifth grader next year - who's not that great a writer, could we start them in the first book? Or should we wait for the second book? I'm hesitant about trying Writing Strands with my younger son.....

Thanks!

(And when are you going to write a great logic series for us, by the way?)

Regena

[Colleen in NS]

Volume 2 will cover logic stage (5-8) and Volume 3 will cover high school (9-12). No pub schedule yet (sorry!). But you have good options available for logic and rhetoric-stage options--it's the development of those basic writing skills that I find REALLY lacking in writing programs.

Yes, the books expand on the writing CD, giving much more detailed year-by-year breakdowns of what skills to teach when and how.

The writing book needs a grammar program to go along w/it, but you wouldn't do the R&S writing (or any other writing program) along with it.

HTH

So, do you think R&S writing exercises are still good options for logic/rhetoric stage, along with the recommendations on your writing CD/in the WTM? Or will your Volumes 2 and 3 be intended to replace that option?

And, do you think that in grammar stage, if a student is using the methods outlined in your writing CD, that R&S writing exercises are NOT needed (I've been using them for 3rd and 4th grade)??

I'm probably going to buy all three books - that volume 1 if only for the essay you mentioned - but I'm sure I'll get a lot more out of it for my dd7, and to make sure I've covered everything for ds9. :)

Thanks for your help.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Volume 1 is primarily narration work and copywork; Volume 2 is more advanced narration work and dictation. If your older student can 1) tell you what he wants to write, even if he can't get it down on paper, and 2) take 2-3 sentences at a time from dictation, he's probably past the skills being taught.

does that make sense?

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Colleen....

volumes 2 & 3 will, eventually be an alternative to R&S writing...but if they're not ready by the time YOU are, Rod & Staff-- or Classical Writing, or IEW, or the other programs that we've recommended, would be absolutely fine.

The thing is: I've still got to finish writing the history of the world.

And I still feel that the grammar-stage skills are NOT well taught, whereas there are many more good resources available for the later stages.

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen....

volumes 2 & 3 will, eventually be an alternative to R&S writing...but if they're not ready by the time YOU are, Rod & Staff-- or Classical Writing, or IEW, or the other programs that we've recommended, would be absolutely fine.

The thing is: I've still got to finish writing the history of the world.

And I still feel that the grammar-stage skills are NOT well taught, whereas there are many more good resources available for the later stages.

OK, I get it - sounds like volumes 2 and 3 are far down the road, in favour of the history books over the next few years, and that volume 1 is filling a current urgent need.

I'll just dig back into the writing CD this spring and take notes on logic stage and come back here with more questions, as needed, for all the experienced teachers-of-writing.

Do you mind just answering the other question from my previous post - do you think a 3rd and 4th grader, who is doing the writing CD recs, needs to do the R&S writing exercises (we've been doing them, as we go through the R&S books)?

Thanks for taking the time, and I promise this is the last question for now. :)

[mcconnellboys]

Thanks, Susan!

Regena

[A home for their hearts]

Did you mention elsewhere that the series is based on your writing CD?



I think I'm a little out of the loop here, what writing CD is this?

One more awesome thing I like about this new forum! SWB drops by!!!

[Susan Wise Bauer]

if a third or fourth grader is doing regular narrations, writing those narrations down, and doing dictation, CONSCIENTIOUSLY, than I don't think you necessarily need to do the R&S writing as well. That can be a lot of fine motor work, especially for boys.

SWB

P.S. The writing CD, by the way, is at peacehillpress.com.

[Emmy]

Thanks for all the detail, the writing book sounds great - should be a good fit for my older 2.

[Colleen in NS]

Thanks so much, Susan.

[Colleen in NS]

What I meant was the R&S writing *lessons,* not ds writing out answers to all of the R&S grammar/writing lessons. We do most of R&S orally anyway, including the writing lessons, BECAUSE we do the dictation and narrations every week - with ds writing himself.

I just wondered if you thought the 3rd and 4th grade R&S writing lesson concepts were even necessary if we are doing all the dictation and narrations.

I have a feeling I can just go over the concepts of the writing lessons in 4th, without feeling like he has to write out the writing lesson activities. But I'll just look ahead into my R&S 5th TM to see how they cover these concepts that are in the 4th grade book - no need for you to answer again. :)

[Colleen in NS]

It's a CD that SWB had recorded, which lays out her outline of how to teach writing all through the grade levels. It's WONDERFUL!!! Practical, full of detail, full of the whys and hows of teaching writing.

[Amy loves Bud]

I haven't seen this discussed elsewhere, though it probably has been, so sorry!

Anyway, will FLL3 and the new writing program be appropriate for a third grader to do together, or would it be too much overlap? Thanks!

[Susan Wise Bauer]

FLL3 and the new writing program would be a perfect combo for a third grader--you'd just skip the optional dictations in FLL 3 so as not to overdo the handwriting.

And Colleen--I was referring not to the writing out of the grammar exercises, but to the writing exercises that are interspersed.

(We do about half of the grammar exercises orally anyway; don't know about you.)

[Colleen in NS]

:oOoops, OK! My misunderstanding. I'm trying to piece together different "teaching writing" info. from these boards today.

Currently we do all - not half - of the grammar exercises orally - I'm still a paranoid homeschooler, still want to make sure kids are getting what they need, but regularly tell oldest child that he will survive being my guinea pig (I'm an oldest child, too), LOL! (I really have eased up on a lot of things, though, heh heh):D

[Sandy in Indy]

[QUOTE=Susan Wise Bauer;9572]The thing is: I've still got to finish writing the history of the world.
[QUOTE]

Somehow this gives me the mental image of SWB sitting at a rock chiseling out the history of the world! (I must have been up way too late last night.)

Will the writing program be available to preview at the Midwest Convention the end of March??? (Pretty please.)

Hmmm...not sure why I can't get that quote to clip and still show up correctly!

[Queen_Zarga]

They have some information up at Peace Hill Press, but no samples yet. :(

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Sandy in Indy,

Yeah. That's exactly how it feels.

SWB

[Jennifer in MI]

I'm so excited about these books!! This is the subject I feel the weakest teaching. I'll definately order from PHP! Thank you SWB!

[AllSmiles]

nt

[EvergreenEclecticAcademy]

Thanks for posting this! I've been anxiously awaiting the samples...off to check it out!

[Unicorn]

I just preorderd my copy! Thanks for posting this!

[Lori C, Texas]

I am headed over there right now! How exciting! I have been waiting for this!:D

[training5]

Will samples of the workbooks be available soon? Are they required to use the program? What do the workbooks contain? Is the price correct for each workbook? Would this be appropriate to use with older (9 and 11 yrs) children with little writing training?
And lastly, when will level 2 be ready? No pressure....:D

I do realize a wonderful writing CD has been made that probably answers many of my questions. Unfortunately, I am hearing impaired so anything auditory like that is very difficult for me to use effectively. Would it be possible to purchase a transcript of the tape?

Thank you so much for your time and books.

[training5]

I am so drooling now for a copy.

[Beth in SW WA]

I just pre-ordered -- thanks for the tip! :)

[KIN]

Is year 2, second grade? So, if I'm looking at it for writing for my 3rd grader next year it wouldn't work? I'm a little confused in looking at the samples as to what year it is for. But, the samples look really good, I just can't figure out for what grade it is used. :confused:

Have you looked at it? Whaddya think?

[Melissa B]

I would say the first two samples are from the core book which covers grades one through four and the last sample is for workbook number 2 which would be 2nd grade.

[Novafan]

Wondering the same things. :)

[Sue G in PA]

When do you expect the 5-8th curriculum to be out? My oldest ds will be in 5th next year and dd in 7th (she's the one I'm most concerned about). Also, can I use Writing With Ease with a 3rd grader who hasn't really followed the copywork, narration, dictation method very strictly? TIA.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

young children progress at very different rates through acquiring the skills. The levels are roughly equivalent to grades, but reluctant writers may need to start at a lower level. Essentially:

if your child can do copywork well, but struggles a bit with one to two sentence dictations, start with Level 2,

if your child struggles with three to four sentence dictation and/or has difficulty with coherent, brief summaries, start with Level 3,

if your (slightly older) child can think of what to write but can't get it on paper, start with Level 4.

There are diagnostic tests in the Writing With Ease text to help you place your student.

[KIN]

Thanks for your reply. Will it be easy to use without a workbook, say for my 3rd grader next year? Or, should I just start with my 1st grader? I'm excited, I sent in my pre-order yesterday! :)

[ilovemy6kids]

Are they going to be ready by fall? With 6 kids at different levels workbooks really keep ME on track.
Sheri

[Lori in MS]

I have a 5th grader who struggles with writing. Would Level 4 work for him? I read the 3 stages. I'm not sure how to get him ready for high school. I wonder if I could go through the steps and not take a whole year on each level?

[Susan Wise Bauer]

In answer to the questions...

it's DESIGNED to be used without the workbook, the workbook just reduces your prep time.

And yes, IMO it would be perfect for a struggling fifth grader.

SWB

[KIN]

Great! Thanks again for your reply. I'm all for reducing my prep time, but it is good to know I can use the book for my 3rd grader without a workbook. :)

[Rhondabee]

In answer to the questions...

it's DESIGNED to be used without the workbook, the workbook just reduces your prep time.

And yes, IMO it would be perfect for a struggling fifth grader.

SWB

Could you define "struggling" a bit more concretely?

My now-4th gr ds knows exactly what he wants to say. It is usually "more" rather than "less".

However, he does not proof for spelling or capitalization or punctuation as he goes. And, since many of his sentences structures are more complex than what he's learned to punctuate via R&S-4, I help quite a bit with that. He does have a problem with run-ons.

So, is that "struggling"?

And, should I be helping him catch his errors as he writes - for example, his history narrations? Right now, I go over them with him the next day. (And he does catch some without my help.)

Thanks for the sample! :)

[Pster]

Another question - and maybe "I'm" just missing something.....
but is FLL4 the bk that is designed to go with WWE? If I use WWE that would be great to have FLL mesh with it - but.... we are finishing up FLL2 and would only be starting FLL3 when we would be starting WWE..... will it still work out as well together?

I am assuming this quote was talking about FLL4 just because it was written underneath it.

from peacehillpress:
First Language Lessons and Writing With Ease are designed to be used together. First Language Lessons covers grammar, punctuation, and mechanics; Writing With Ease covers actual writing skills. The two books are structured so that the exercises in Writing With Ease help to reinforce the concepts learned in First Language Lessons.ty

[Mom2boys]

Are you going to have a booth at the HEAV convention, and if so, will WWE be available for purchase?

[KIN]

Yes, Pster, from what I'm understanding here you would use FLL 3 with year 3 of the writing book. You have two separate books - grammar (FLL) and writing (WWE). WWE also has workbooks coming out - year 1 and year 2's workbooks will be out this summer. However, you can use WWE without the workbooks, like for our 3rd graders next year. :) Choices, choices!!! :)

[Jules in MI]

I'd like to pre-order the Writing with Ease text as well, but what workbook would go with it? Workbook 2? My son will be in 3rd grade. He can do copywork and dictation, a few sentences at a time as long as I read slowly. He is doing Character Quality Language Arts now, but I feel it is too much for him, esp. the writing. There hasn't been enough teaching HOW to write before requiring original composition pieces, IMO.

[Tina Duke]

do you need both workbooks 1 and 2? I"m thinking about this for ds for Fall...K.. It sounds like workbooks 1 and 2 are for 1 years worth of work. Is that right?t thanks!

[Susan Wise Bauer]

the instructions for preK and K work are all in the book itself. The first workbook is for grade 1/year 1, the second is for grade 2/year 2 and so on.

[Heather in OK]

if your child can do copywork well, but struggles a bit with one to two sentence dictations, start with Level 2,

if your child struggles with three to four sentence dictation and/or has difficulty with coherent, brief summaries, start with Level 3,

if your (slightly older) child can think of what to write but can't get it on paper, start with Level 4.
If I'm understanding right....WWE book (Part 1) is broken up into four levels, years 1-4?

Part 2 will cover years 5-8 and Part 3 will cover years 9-12?

[Tina Duke]

when it said a full years worth.. I was thinking it meant book 1 and 2 were *one* years worth of work.. I understand now.. thanks for the clarification. It looks great! thanks for your hard work!

** edited to add.. my ds will be in 1st, not K in Fall... must be time for bed!**

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Rhonda....I don't think your son is struggling; he's not having trouble getting words down on paper, he just hasn't quite mastered the mechanics yet. Sounds to me like he could benefit from some direct instruction in proofreading...have you checked out Editor in Chief? (And if I were you, I'd either watch him write and correct him as he goes, or else correct his work right after he writes it and have him erase and rewrite the problem spots IMMEDIATELY. IMO, when he writes incorrectly he is reinforcing his tendency to ignore mechanics, and if you don't correct it until the next day, the corrections do nothing to change his habit.)

Pster...There are three FLL books: FLL Levels 1 & 2 (combined into one book), FLL 3, and FLL 4. They cover the first four years of school. The Writing With Ease main text covers all four of those years. Workbook 1 and Workbook 2 are a supplement that make teaching the first two years earlier (you would use them in the same years that you use the FLL 1 & 2 book). Workbooks 3 and 4 will cover grades 3 and 4, the years you would be using FLL 3 and FLL 4...those workbooks are not yet available, but you can still use the Writing With Ease main text without the supplements.

Jules in MI: Sounds to me like your son could benefit from doing the Level 2 workbook. It would give him some extra practice in the mechanics of writing, which he probably needs before going on to do original composition.

Heather in OK...that's exactly right! by george, she's got it!!!

Going to have a hot bath now,

SWB

[Pster]

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhh - that makes sense - duh! matching the year of FLL to the year of WWE! Why couldn't I figure that out?? *sigh*

rats - now I realize that I won't have the workbook for my 3rd grader! oh well.

But....I can still use the WWE for my soon to be 1st grader and I can get her the workbook! Hope she is ready for it!!

ugh....must stop waffling between programs!! I will evaluate it this weekend and make some decisions............maybe.:rolleyes:

thanks for all the help! ;)

[KIN]

Pster - I think I'm going to go with FLL/WWE for my 1st grader for sure, but I think I'm going with WT 1 for my 3rd grader. I'm thinking I'll be able to implement some of SWB's thoughts on writing into WT's. Just my thoughts for now on my plans for next year!

[Pster]

Can I ask what made you think about going with WT1 for you dd for 3rd? What kind of writer / reader is she?

Just trying to figure out which is right for my dd. I just don't know. Too many options. My dd isn't wild about writing but she can write a few sentences and I see some improvement. We have been using Draw...Then Write (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?event=AFF&p=1026183&item_no=97314#curr) , the narrations from bks or SOTW, writing in FLL1/2 - just random stuff like that this year. However she is doing GREAT reading.

I had been leaning towards WT1 for next year and was happy "we" didn't have to do extra grammar. But then....I got to seen inside WWE bk today and I do like that. I like that it can mesh with FLL3. So...now I just don't know. I like the whole philosophy behind SWB's bks.

What will you use for spelling? That's another one I've been unsure of - I've liked Natural Speller & Sequential Spelling.

I would like to use it with dd who will be in 1st but I'm not sure how ready she'll be for it. She struggles with handwriting & reading....so I'm not sure if she'll be ready. Guess I can always hold off if she isn't "there" yet. Do you think your 1st grader can handle the writing? & grammar?

thanks for discussing this!:D:D

[Rhondabee]

Gotcha - and thanks again!

[KIN]

Well, one of the reasons I think I'm going with WT's for my 3rd grader is that there won't be a workbook for WWE for year 3. :) Also, WT's is very gentle and thorough. I think it is a great program, I've researched it, and have it in my grubby little paws. It looks easy to implement, and my son that doesn't like to write should be able to handle it. I'm thrilled with the idea of getting writing and grammar done togther.

I really want to look at and read SWB's book though. I really respect her thoughts on writing, so I'm thinking I'll start my 1st grader that way. After a year of each, I should know which way I want to go for the next years. My 1st grader will be able to handle the writing for both FLL and WWE. He really enjoys writing and can do so much more than my oldest could at the same age.

I use SWR for spelling/reading and love it. I won't use anything else! :) My oldest is testing really well with spelling and reading. My K'er is coming right along as well, although he isn't reading as quickly as my oldest did. Is your 1st grader (to be) on the young side? My son turned 6 in late December, so he will be 6.5 when 1st grade starts. I think months make a difference at that young of an age. Well, Las Vegas is back on... gotta run. :) I'll check back later!

[Pster]

My k'er going on 1st grade is young yet. She won't turn 6 till end of March. So I'm looking ahead on this I guess - maybe a little too far for her. I just see her struggles now and think she just wouldn't be able to handle a lot of writing. Eh... maybe I just need to wait on starting the WWE. {Ooooooh - but I want to see it!}

I want to have both of the bks in my hands so I can look thru and compare them from front to back.

Maybe I should just get WWE & wkbk 1 for dd (K->1st) and just use it whenever she is ready.... and then for dd7....maybe WT1 or WWE. Maybe if I order WWE and really like it I can just use it with my oldest dd. I do wish it had the wkbk ready - that would make my work easier.....lol.

oh well! enough for tonight! I'll "sleep" on it and figure it out later!

thanks for talkin'!

[TexasTea]

Susan can you recommend something for older children (7th and 10th for example)? They hate writing and I have no idea how to teach it any more.
They are both wonderful at written summaries/narrations but we have never figured out how to get past that point. I have been a bad mom and ignored it for too long.

Do you have any thoughts on what I can do and or use to get us past this point and where we should be. I admit I have no idea where we should be!

Thank you
Debbie

[Cadam]

Not to pressure Susan or anything but are there plans for a WWE - 2? I will have a 6th grader next year and would love something like this for him, but he is beyond the first book, I think - or will be by next year anyway.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

and I can't make promises...there's this whole History of the World I'm supposed to be writing....but I'll keep you posted just as SOON as I have some idea as to when it'll be finished!

Fortunately you have better options available for middle grades and high school than for elementary writing...IMO it's the early training that's absolutely missing from writing programs.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Can you give me some idea of what programs you've tried? It's OK if the answer is "none"...just put me into the picture.

Also: are the children slow readers, average readers, voracious readers?

Do they resist writing creatively?

Have they had any experience in writing different sorts of papers: research papers, for example, or response papers?

[TexasTea]

for taking the time to address my questions.

Let me see if I can give some more background.

7th grader:

She is a fast reader and does it very well but only ready what she 'has' to. She general does not pick up a book to read for enjoyment.

She is very creative by nature and loves creative writing, will make up outlandish stories and writes with humor. The content is usually pretty good but lacking in mechanics because she does not care about that stuff.

She is working in a book by EPS called Writing Skills 1. She has also done a small amount of IEW. She is currently outlining from Kingfisher 3x week.

10th grader:

She is a voracious reader and always has a book (or several) going and will choose reading in her free time.

She is NOT creative by nature and a creative writing assignment will still make her cry at 15 years old. She is conscientious of her work and will concentrate more on mechanics then content at times.

She has taken an IEW class and we have done some at home. She spent all of 8th grade writing written narrations using Kingfisher History Ency. She hated it and cried at the beginning but by the end of the year could do it very quickly and well. I never knew where to go with her after that.
I tried Writing Strands 3 with her years ago but can't remember now why we did not continue with it.

She does well with a narration or summery type assignment where she is just giving back information that she has read but freezes up on anything she has to pull out of her head.

Last year (9th grade) she did a paragraph class online. That is pretty much all we have done. She has never done a research paper or response paper.

Is there any hope for us?

Thank you for your help I really need it!!
Blessings,
Debbie

[Susan Wise Bauer]

How did IEW go when you worked on it? Did they hate it, not mind it, struggle with it?

[TexasTea]

I don't think my oldest child liked the IEW class because it was a 6 hour class that tried to cover the whole program. I think that moved too fast for her and I didn't have it at home to know how to implement.

I did borrow IEW from a friend once and learned how to teach the first 2 units on note making and summarizing from your notes.

My 10th grader says she does not like IEW because she does not like the check list you have to write from. I guess there is something that requires so many -ly adverbs and things like that. To be fair, I don't think this child would 'like' any program right now. ha

I think IEW went pretty well for the brief time we used it.

Thanks
Debbie

[training5]

I am still not clear as to what the workbooks will contain? Are they just copies of the stories and questions? Is space given for the child to write? Will samples be available soon for the workbooks? This would help me to decide if it is worth $70 to buy two copies of Level 2 for my guys.
One last question...when will the Level 3 and 4 workbooks be ready?
I know SWB said the workbooks are NOT necessary to use the program. I am just trying to see how they save prep time.

[prairiegirl]

I am still not clear as to what the workbooks will contain? Are they just copies of the stories and questions? Is space given for the child to write? Will samples be available soon for the workbooks? This would help me to decide if it is worth $70 to buy two copies of Level 2 for my guys.
One last question...when will the Level 3 and 4 workbooks be ready?
I know SWB said the workbooks are NOT necessary to use the program. I am just trying to see how they save prep time.

Samples can be seen at Peace Hill Press (http://www.peacehillpress.com) Just click on the Year 2 link.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I'll see if we can get some samples of the workbook up early in the week so that you can see how it complements the text.

[ELaurie]

Thank you for posting sample pages of SWB's new book Writing With Ease. Would you consider posting sample pages of the workbooks online as well?

Thank you!

[Cadam]

Thanks Susan, I appreciate your reply. Maybe it will be ready for the next kid!:D

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Debbie,

Sorry it took me a couple of days to get back to this...the weekend happened.:)

Neither one of your kids needs to do any creative writing--it's absolutely NOT necessary for an educated person to write creatively. You either enjoy it, or you don't, and forcing a child who doesn't have a bent for creative writing to do creative assignments can result in a child who loathes ALL kinds of writing.

If I were you (and if you can swing it), I'd put the tenth grader into the IEW Student Classes on DVD series--starting with the writing intensive, then doing the continuation course, and aiming to finish up the high school essay at least by twelfth grade.

I'd start the seventh grader on Writing Strands, Book 5, finish the Writing Strands series, and then move her into the IEW student classes as well.

A word about IEW...I like the structure taught, but I personally dislike the dress-ups very much. "Style" should be a result of clear communication. Artificially teaching style can result in very awkward writing. So do the assignments...but I'd skip the dress-ups if I were you.

Let me know if you have more questions and I'll do my best to get back to you a little more promptly.

[TexasTea]

Thank you so much for helping me out. I have read over all our correspondence with my 10th grader and she is willing to do IEW again since it was recommended by Susan Wise Bauer, the college professor! :) She is all about wanting to be prepared for college. You helped me so much!!

I am glad you gave me 'permission' to skip some of that dress-up stuff because that is what we both dislike.:D

I am going to order the IEW and Writing Strands right away.

I think my younger daughter will do well with Writing Strands and the girls do not like working in the same programs not that they are older.

When you said to work through the Writing Strands levels, do you mean ALL of them or just the books that are numbered?

I know you are very busy so I really appreciate the help you have given me and I'm sure others will benefit from it as well.

Blessings
Debbie

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Debbie,

I'd just do Levels 5, 6, 7, and then finish up with Writing Exposition.

And don't forget that both Writing Strands and IEW have incredibly helpful elements...and also annoying elements that won't help your particular situation. You should always feel free to skip, adapt, and change.

SWB

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Go to peacehillpress.com.

Hope that helps answer some questions...

[debbiec]

So, I went over to Peace Hill to look at the workbook samples that just came up today (thanks Peace Hill, by the way!). They are labeled "teacher pages" and "student pages". I take it those are all in the one workbook. But, from looking at the teacher pages, does one need the Writing with Ease hardback? It looks as if the information from the hardback is reproduced in the workbook in the form of 'teacher pages." That may not be the case, but it appears that way from just looking at on line samples. I may be a little thick in the head and may not be seeing the obvious though.

I'm confused now ~ help!

[Heather in VA]

This may be self-explanitory once there are samples for FLL4 but I'll ask anyway. The description under FLL4 says that it is made to work in conjunction with Writing with Ease - FLL4 being grammar, mechanics, punctuation and WWE being writing. But then WWE seems to be for 1st and 2nd grade. So I'm confused how they work together? Will that only be true later when there are more levels of the writing book? If so, does that mean that FLL4 isn't complete as far as writing goes until the 4th book for WWE is available?

Thanks

[Trivium Academy]

WWE is for 1st through 4th grade, grammar stage. :)

[Heather in VA]

Then will there be more workbooks? I take it that you must be able to use it without workbooks??

[Verena]

Yes, there'll be more workbooks for WWE. You can use the WWE without the workbooks- the workbooks will just save you time.
I don't have a link handy, but look through the last few days of posts- there have been many on FLL 4/WWE.

HTH!

[Verena]

Here is a link to a post in which SWB answers.
HTH!


http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4028

[Heather in VA]

Wonderful!!! Thanks. I get it now. Sorry I didn't search well enough.

[ELaurie]

How large are the lines for copy work in Vol 1 and vol 2?

Do they correspond to typical "1st grade paper" and "2nd grade paper"?

Do the workbooks lay relatively flat for printing?

Thank you!

[training5]

I am bumping this so maybe an answer will appear. My limited understanding is the workbook is just the assignments, not all the how it works overview for the grammar years. I am getting both.

[TexasTea]

Thanks Susan. I am feeling much better about writing now that I have a plan.

[thundersweet]

I have pre-ordered the WWE book and workbooks 1 and 2. I have a 6yo old dd in first grade. If I were starting in grade two I would probably just buy book 2. My plan is to go through the 1st workbook with her at a faster pace (working through the summer)this year and start workbook 2 in second. Does this sound like a good idea or would we do just as well waiting until 2nd and starting book 2? Hope this makes sense. I have no idea as to how much books 1 and 2 overlap.

Thanks,
Sandy

[Pata]

My understanding is that the book explains the reasons why the curriculum is what it is and gives examples of how to implement it through the years. Somewhere on the website there was something about why the workbook made it easier. It said that the workbook had all of the 36 weeks scheduled, while the book gave you an example of one week and told you to do that for the next three weeks. If we order (I haven't made my mind up yet), we will get both. If you don't get the book, you will miss the reasons why and how. If you don't get the workbook, you will have to schedule things for narration and copywork. Hope this helps, it's what I understand about the program, maybe SWB will chime in and give a better explanation.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

The hardback contains the how, the why, the overall plan, sample lessons--everything you need to construct your own writing plan for grades K-4 and integrate into your history and literature program.

The workbooks, one for each grade, spell out the plan for you.

It's modelled on the SOTW core texts and activity books. You can use either alone, but you'll get the full program if you get them together.

In addition, we know that some parents like to have a spelled-out day by day plan (provided in the workbooks), while some prefer more freedom to adjust basic principles of teaching to their own style.

Hope that clarifies...if you look at the current samples which are up, you'll see how Year One appears in the text, and how it is spelled out in the workbook.

[HappyGrace]

I wasn't understanding it either, but these samples helped me make my decision. I will definitely get this to go along with FLL for ds next year. It is the puzzle piece I was missing when I did FLL 1/2 with dd! Thanks, SWB!

[debbiec]

OK, I get it. if you want want more leeway and freedom to choose your own copywork, dictation, you can use the hardback. If you want it planned for you, so you can "pick and and go" (as the CW people say), the workbook allows you to do that without having to prepare as much. Sounds great, thanks. I guess I didn't cooridinate the samples like I should have or that would have been apparant. But, it seems, from what was said, you "could" use the workbook alone, though it would not be advisable. (Not that I'm going to do that, but it appears that way, if you have an good grasp of the overall program and big picture).

[Jules in MI]

We are going to be ordering FLL3 and the Writing w/ Ease curriculum for our next school year. I noticed at Peace Hill Press that workbooks 1 and 2 will be coming out soon. Will you be publishing a workbook 3 for 3rd grade soon? I know it isn't necessary, but as you have mentioned, the planning is done for me! Thanks.

[WTMindy]

the workbook for 3 and 4 will not be out by the fall.

[Sue G in PA]

I have FLL 1/2. I've been looking (drooling? LOL!) at Writing W/Ease and wondering if copywork, dictation and narration are all included in FLL 1/2 (and I'm guessing 3 and 4), would this separate Writing program be necessary? OR, would it be overkill? I'm thinking "out loud" here, but I wonder if I should just use Writing With Ease for the writing aspects and perhaps FLL solely for the grammar exercises or perhaps even R&S for grammar (as I have those texts as well)? Just thinking out loud here. So, SWB (or anyone familiar), how would these two books best work together (I did read the note at the website about how they work together, but was that only for FLL4 or the other levels as well?). TIA!

[Amy loves Bud]

I asked SWB about this a few weeks back. She said FLL 3 and WWE will be a perfect combo. You would simply leave out the optional dictation exercises in FLL. I'm planning on this combo for my third grader in the fall.

[Sue G in PA]

Do I really NEED WWE if I'm using FLL 1/2 w/ a second grader? Would the writing exercises in FLL 1/2 be sufficient?

[Susan Wise Bauer]

For a second grader, yes. WWE walks you through the progression from copywork to dictation and trains the student in finding the central details in narratives, descriptions, etc.--important writing skills. The FLL work is intended mainly for reinforcing the grammar skills.

If I were you I'd get the text first, and wait on the workbook until you've looked through the text and you're sure you need it.

SWB

[Fran51]

SWB, is there a plan for WWE for late elementary?

[Pata]

I'm trying to determine which level to order for next year. We just recieved FLL and have started going through it. I anticipate that we will be at the beginning of the 2nd part by the beginning of next year. Right now my dd is doing Sonlight's LA1 (without problems). It has copywork of 2-3 sentences and narrations of 3-4 sentences all of which she is able to do. I like Sonlight's LA, but it is missing some pieces and looking at the samples of Writing w/ Ease it seems more in line with what I want to be doing. I am definately going to order the book, but I am unsure what to do about the workbook. So my questions... Is she ready for the second workbook of Writing with Ease? Or should I just get the book and go through Level 1 and 2 at an accelerated pace over the next school year? Or should I just start with the first workbook since it is technically her first grade year? Thanks for the advice!

[Sue G in PA]

Now I can tell my financial advisor, um dh, that I NEED the WWE! Thanks.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Fran,

yes, there will be workbooks for grades 3 and 4...but I don't yet have a pub date.

Just to repeat--the text gives you a plan for all four years, so you can still use it for late elementary...it's just that all the narration and dictation exercises aren't all preselected and laid out for you.

Susan

[Cadam]

You don't need the workbook. My plan is to get the WWE book and then decide if I want a workbook or not. I know the workbook has all of the passages to copy and all but since my kids struggle with handwriting I am thinking of investing in StartWrite and making my own copy-work pages so that their copywork is in the same style as HWT.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I'd start w/Workbook Two. But I also think it would be a good idea for you to get the core text first and look at it before deciding.

[HiddenJewel]

Susan,

I have a 5th grade dd who struggles with writing. She is actually back at the stage where it is difficult for her to put her thoughts into verbal words.

I know I can use the Writing with Ease by itself but I also know from past experience that I struggle with coming up with passages and comprehension questions to use. If I do just use the book, I will plan out the passages I want at the beginning of the year. However, the comprehension questions are the big question mark. Our history will facilitate narration nicely but it is a new area for me. So I am very nervous about how it is all going to turn out.

She can do copywork and slow dictation just fine but struggles with putting her thoughts into verbal words. Would using the level 2 workbook be too young?

[Susan Wise Bauer]

than the narration exercises in Workbook 2 would be very helpful for her. We'll be putting sample pages of that workbook up too, once it's typeset, so you might want to wait until then to evaluate whether it will be appropriate.

I'll be sure to post here when they're up...

[HiddenJewel]

than the narration exercises in Workbook 2 would be very helpful for her. We'll be putting sample pages of that workbook up too, once it's typeset, so you might want to wait until then to evaluate whether it will be appropriate.

I'll be sure to post here when they're up...

Thanks. I was thinking starting back near the beginning would be helpful.

[Holly in FL]

Is SWB's new series, The Complete Writer something to use in the place of Writing Strands?

Thanks for any info!
~Holly

[Beth in Central TX]

I would think so. Actually in the 2nd edition of TWTM, SWB says to begin WS or IEW if you are not using R&S grammar, so WS had already been preempted back in 2004.

[Sue G in PA]

:D. Anyway, I can't wait for The Complete Writer to come out in it's entirety (upper grades mostly!). I just love Susan's philosophy on writing.

[Holly in FL]

Thanks to you both.

~Holly

[Heather in VA]

I know that if I had any patience I could wait and find this out when I get the book but I have no patience LOL. I was looking at the Year 1 samples and I was wondering if you generally consider year 1 to be 1st grade or Kindergarten. The sentences in the sample are pretty complex and would be completely out of the question for my soon to be K'er so I was wondering. I know that all kids are different etc but if you consider that early K work then I should put more emphasis on writing than I'm currently doing. If it's early 1st grade, then I don't have to panic yet LOL.

Thanks

[stephanie]

I'm considering using these together for our next school year. We have been
using R&S for grammar and WT 1 as a supplement. Next year will have a 4th grader, 3rd, and 6th. Which ones can I use it on if I decide to use it? I just wasn't for sure what grade levels they covered. Thanks!

[HiddenJewel]

Writing With Ease covers levels one to four. There will be workbooks also available for levels one and two.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

[Quiver0f10]

Can this could be used with a non-reading child? Or does it make sense to wait until the child is reading fluently?

[Heather in VA]

Can this could be used with a non-reading child? Or does it make sense to wait until the child is reading fluently?

I can't imagine doing writing with a child who can't read. I'd wait.

[Quiver0f10]

I can't imagine doing writing with a child who can't read. I'd wait.


That's what I figured, but wasn't sure. Thanks!

[claussenpc]

I was wondering this same thing. My dd8 will be able to read (comfortably) the sentences in Workbook 1 this coming fall. ( I make this assumption from the sample online.) The online Teacher guide mentions 1st grade lined paper. The sample for WK BK 1 looks like it uses 1st grade lined paper. My dd writes in cursive comfortably on regular lined paper.

My ds6 reads 3and 4 letter words quite fluently but can not at this time read the sample copy work sentences for WK BK 1. Does anyone know.....does SWB see benfit from having children copy from works far above reading level? I feel that the child gets bogged down in translating letters from one long word filled with letters to the next.

My "feelings" have nothing to do with what might be best :)

Thanks
cheryl

[jg_puppy]

I am thinking about using FLL3 with my young third grader next year. Would it work to use Writing with Ease level 2 along side FLL3? I know it was written to use FLL2 with level 2 of Writing with Ease, but my dd is behind in writing. I have looked at the samples of FLL3, and I think she could handle FLL3. Is anyone else considering this?

Jan

[Twinmom]

as I am planning on using FLL3 next year with both my son, who will be in 2nd grade, and my daughter, who will be a 3rd grader. DD is about average on writing skills (but is a great narrator and does excellent copywork) and DS is above average in just about everything having to do with words. We have done a condensed year of FLL 1&2 with them this year and will move them both on to FLL3 in the fall. I'm not sure whether or not WWE 2 or 3 would be best for them...I'm unsure which to use as I think they could handle 3 but I don't want them to miss anything!

Would love any advice on this...

[Pata]

From what I understand WWE and FLL are separate, but you can use them at the same time by dropping the copywork/dictation from FLL and just using WWE for all your writing. I would imagine that would mean that you don't have to do the same level of FLL and WWE to make it work. Just my thoughts on the matter...

[Johanna]

I have been wondering if i will be able to apply what i learn from WWE teacher book to our history/science lessons? Does she give that option in the book?? Or is it something that you have to do with the workbook???
I would rather my dc to do copywork/dictation/narration from chosen quotes and summaries out of books we are already reading that correlate with our studies KWIM?
Are the workbook just various and random quotes that the dc do copywork/narration/dicitation from??? Because I can do that from our hist/science books!:001_smile:
What else would be in the workbook?
I hope I make sense:001_huh:....
I am tired so I may not...lol

[Sue G in PA]

the workbook is optional. It has all the quotes, copywork, dictation all there for you. The teacher's manual/text provides the "how" so you can choose your own, KWIM? SWB actually recommended to me to just get the text at first to see how it would "fit" with my dc and at what level they'd be in. Yes, it's more work for you, but it sounds like you want to do your own thing so it would work very well. HTH

[Johanna]

I will just get the text and i can use startwrite or something for the copywork....this would work. I am looking forward to reading the text!
thanks!

[jg_puppy]

Thank you for the answers to my question earlier. I can't wait until the book is out so I can read it.

Jan

[Rebecca]

I am tentatively planning on FLL3 and writing with ease with the 2nd level workbook for next year, too....

Rebecca

[kortney in AL]

I notice that it says this program can be used with an older child who still struggles with writing. What do you think is too old? I have an 8th grader (this fall) that still struggles with any writing program that I have tried. Do you think this would work for him? Thanks!

[April in NC]

Hi ladies! Does anyone know what Peace Hill Press's copyright policy is on workbooks? I'm interested in using the WWE program and FLL 3 with my twin daughters, and I'm wondering if I would need to purchase 2 copies of both workbooks. (Yikes - expensive!)

My understanding is that with the SOTW activity guides you are allowed to make copies of student pages for additional children in your family, and I'm wondering if that is the case with this program as well - especially for WWE, since it is comparatively expensive for the workbook.

I do want to abide by all copyrights, though!

Thanks for any info!

April

[KIN]

I'm definitely using WWE with my 1st grader next fall, and would like to use it with my 3rd grader. However, I'm not sure if I should start with a program that won't have the next book out when he needs it. Or, should I just start with WT 1 for my 3rd grader, which was my choice before I heard about WWE. Thoughts?


Edited to add: I'm not talking about the workbooks, but the actual writing book - I believe the next book will be called Writing with Skill?

[training5]

I would LOVE to get my hands on the next level, as well. I think Susan posted at some point that it won't be soon as she has to finish her history series for Norton first. WHIMPER!!

[Sue G in PA]

WWE goes through 4th grade (and possibly 5th for a dc who needs more time). I'm torn btwn. WT1 and WWE for my 3rd grader, too. I just love the samples of WT, love how it included grammar as well. I'm inclined to go with my gut. BUT, I will have WWE for my 2nd grader anyway...sooo I'm planning to do both, actually! Remember...I'm a curriculum junkie! :D Some WWE, most WT1 is my plan for 3rd. I know I'm not answering your question, sorry! I'm going to the NOVA Conf. in VA in July and SWB said she'd have the WWE books there so I'm going to look before I pre-order and see for myself.

[KIN]

BUT, I will have WWE for my 2nd grader anyway...sooo I'm planning to do both, actually!

That is my current plan as well. But, then I got to wondering if I should just stick with one program for both boys. If the next book isn't out though, in 2 years, then I think I'll probably go with WT 1. I do have Writing Tales 1 already, I just love what I've seen of WWE and really respect SWB's take on writing, so I wonder if I'm doing my older ds a dis-service to not use it with him too. KWIM? :)

[Sue G in PA]

that is why I want to do both! :D But, I am also drawn to WT. My ds9 (5th) will be doing WT2 next year and probably some of the 4th gr. lessons in WWE just b/c none of my dc have really done a bunch of dictation or copywork or even written narrations. Yes, we do narrations, but no consistently. Anyway, I don't think doing both would be bad. Different writing skills adressed, I think. Nice to have variety. I'm also torn btwn. FLL3 and R&S3...leaning toward FLL3 b/c of it's more gentle approach.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

April,

You can absolutely copy the pages for your own family (only).

Sorry, guys, I came into this thread late and now it's really HUGE. What questions do you still need answers to?? Don't start a new thread, but if you could repost the questions that still bug you today, I'll do my best to answer.

Susan

[KIN]

Hi Susan,

I would like to start my 1st & 3rd graders with WWE next fall, but I know my 3rd grader will only use the book for 3rd and 4th. Do you make recommendations in the book as to what program you should use after WWE if the next book isn't out? Or, would I be better off to just start with a program, such as CW, that goes all the way through for my 3rd grader?

Thank you for taking the time to answer all of our questions!

[Gretchen in NJ]

We have completed FLL levels 1 & 2 and will be finished with FLL level 3 soon. I plan on beginning FLL level 4 in September. My dds have been composing letters to family and friends, completing book reports (for school,) and writing short stories during their free time. They love it write little children's books.

I am wondering if I should skip FLL Level 4 for my older dd and place her in a 5th grade program.

How would we use WWE? Would it be useful to us?:confused:

Gretchen

[Heather in VA]

Question for SWB - Youroriginal posts about WWE indicated K - 4. I was looking at the Year 1 samples and I was wondering if you generally consider year 1 to be 1st grade or Kindergarten. The sentences in the sample are pretty complex and would be completely out of the question for my soon to be K'er so I was wondering. I know that all kids are different etc but if you consider that early K work then I should put more emphasis on writing than I'm currently doing. If it's early 1st grade, then I don't have to panic yet LOL.

Thanks

[Susie in CA]

Hi Susan,

I'd like to see a 4th Grade sample. My dss will be 3rd and 4th next year. Is there anyway you could put up a sample for upper elementary?

Also, when do you expect the Logic Stage book to be out?

Thank you much!

Susie

[Sasharowan]

Does the 4th grade section cover outlining?

[training5]

When will the grade 3 and 4 wkbks be ready?

[training5]

I want to use the program with my second guy soon. I just don't have the time or energy to come up with my own examples.

[Emmy]

I was thinking that you could use it either with or without the actual workbooks right? So you would be able to use it as long as you had writing paper on hand?

[training5]

That is true. I guess i just didn't want to have to find my own examples. SIGH! Well, it is going to be too good to not use just for that silly reason!

[kaylk in tx]

but you would have to provide paper, etc. the workbooks just have everything laid out ready to go.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Hi Susan,

I would like to start my 1st & 3rd graders with WWE next fall, but I know my 3rd grader will only use the book for 3rd and 4th. Do you make recommendations in the book as to what program you should use after WWE if the next book isn't out? Or, would I be better off to just start with a program, such as CW, that goes all the way through for my 3rd grader?

Thank you for taking the time to answer all of our questions!

Kathy,

If your third grader is still a reluctant writer, or a willing writer who struggles, I'd use WWE and then move on CW, Wordsmith, IEW, Writing Strands--all good programs, each with advantages and disadvantages. If the third grader writes fluently and easily, you probably don't need WWE.

Susan

[Susan Wise Bauer]

We have completed FLL levels 1 & 2 and will be finished with FLL level 3 soon. I plan on beginning FLL level 4 in September. My dds have been composing letters to family and friends, completing book reports (for school,) and writing short stories during their free time. They love it write little children's books.

I am wondering if I should skip FLL Level 4 for my older dd and place her in a 5th grade program.

How would we use WWE? Would it be useful to us?:confused:

Gretchen

Gretchen,

I wouldn't skip FLL 4--it really does advance quite a bit beyond FLL3. It doesn't sound as though WWE is really necessary for you, though. It's very focused on laying a foundation for good expository writing, and it sounds to me as though your daughters are already fluent writers.

Susan

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Question for SWB - Youroriginal posts about WWE indicated K - 4. I was looking at the Year 1 samples and I was wondering if you generally consider year 1 to be 1st grade or Kindergarten. The sentences in the sample are pretty complex and would be completely out of the question for my soon to be K'er so I was wondering. I know that all kids are different etc but if you consider that early K work then I should put more emphasis on writing than I'm currently doing. If it's early 1st grade, then I don't have to panic yet LOL.

Thanks

Heather,

1. Don't panic!

2. DEFINITELY first grade. NOT kindergarten. NO WAY. :001_smile:

Susan

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Hi Susan,

I'd like to see a 4th Grade sample. My dss will be 3rd and 4th next year. Is there anyway you could put up a sample for upper elementary?

Also, when do you expect the Logic Stage book to be out?

Thank you much!

Susie

Susie,

Workbook 4 isn't finished yet, but we can put up an excerpt from Year 4 in the WWE main text.

I'll keep you posted about the Logic Stage book, but it will be a couple of years. CW, IEW, Wordsmith, Writing Strands--all have good aspects for logic stage writing.

Susan

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Does the 4th grade section cover outlining?

Mary,

Outlining will start with the logic-stage book, in fifth grade.

SWB

[Margaret]

I am in the grammar stage of homeschooling. :001_smile: (only 2nd year)--and still trying to figure out which educational philosophies make the most sense. Several of you strongly endorsed SWB's philosphy of writting.

What exactly is her philosophy? What makes it different and better than other writting curriculm that is out there?--Why can it be callled 'classical'? Feel free to direct me to books, articles, web sites to read etc. I've already read TWTM several times--maybe I missed something.

I've been using FLL this year--and wanted something else for my 8 year old's writting, but haven't found that piece yet--maybe WWE is it. Why are so many of you excited for it?


Thanks for your input,
Margaret

[Sue G in PA]

www.peacehillpress.com One of those samples is SWB explaining why other writing programs fail and why hers is different/better. Even if I tried to explain her thoughts, I'd never do it justice so I'm not gonna try! I think, though, in a nutshell she doesn't feel the need for grammar stage students to do any original writing and thinks that copying good literature, sentences from history or science or what-have-you and progressing to taking dictation from good sentences/paragraphs is sufficient for that stage. OH, and add to that narrations which get the child to explain in their own words what they've just heard. Again, I'm not doing her philosophy justice at.all. But, check out those samples!

[beckyhartlee]

My daughter is 5 and she is reading three letter words. Her hand coordination is not completely where I would think it would be at this point. She has a hard time still forming letters correctly. We have been working loosley this year. We have completed the K Saxon math program already. I purchased the Ordinary Parents Guide To Reading and I am doing remedial work with my 3rd grader and am blowing through the first part of the book pretty quickly with my 5 year old. I also purchased FLL at convention and am wondering if I should wait to start my daughter on those lessons until half way through OPG. it seems that since most of the lessons are oral, it would be a piece fo cake for her to do. I am not thinking she is ready for the Writing With Ease book yet since she is still struggling with writing letters correctly on lined paper. Would it be better to wait and use the Writing With Ease along side the FLL. I don't want to hold her back, yet I don't wan to be in a rush either. She won't be 6 until February and is very different than all six of my other boys. I would have never considered starting them on FLL at 5 years of age.

I also have a question about my 8 year old. We are still working on reading fluency. He has been a very slow and labored reader. Since purchasing OPG, he has improved in his reading skills by leaps and bounds! I am hoping to finish the OPG this summer. He will be 9 by August and we technically have him as a third grader. I purchased the FLL 3 for him and he has never had the FLL 1 and 2. After looking at the content in level 3, there was no doubt in my mind he was ready for that level. As far at writing is concerned, I am not sure where to start though. He does not like to write and has not used a writing program yet. He has beautiful handwriiting, but complains when I give him a paragraph to copy. He is not a good speller, but is making great improvements since we started using All About Spelling. After looking at the examples of the Writing With Ease lessons level 1 and 2, it seemed as though they appeared they would be too easy for my almost 9 year old. He does pretty good writing from dictaion, yet he mispells words a lot. He is improving every day though! Where do I begin with a writing program for him? I own IEW's Structure and Style program, but I have not listened to it. I also am somewhat drawn to Writing Strands, but I still am not sure what level I would start my son at. Level one looks too easy, but level 2 might be the right one. We are getting ready to purchase Tapestry of Grace and a writing handbook comes wth the program. They say it is an excellent book, but I am not sure how thorough the writing instruction is. I would appreciate any wise advice you can give me. Thank you!

Becky Lee

[training5]

bUMP

[Susan Wise Bauer]

My daughter is 5 and she is reading three letter words. Her hand coordination is not completely where I would think it would be at this point. She has a hard time still forming letters correctly.

This strikes me as very normal for a five-year-old, so you shouldn't necessarily factor this into your concerns as you plan for the future.

We have been working loosley this year. We have completed the K Saxon math program already. I purchased the Ordinary Parents Guide To Reading and I am doing remedial work with my 3rd grader and am blowing through the first part of the book pretty quickly with my 5 year old. I also purchased FLL at convention and am wondering if I should wait to start my daughter on those lessons until half way through OPG. it seems that since most of the lessons are oral, it would be a piece fo cake for her to do.

She sounds completely ready to start FLL1. Go for it.

I am not thinking she is ready for the Writing With Ease book yet since she is still struggling with writing letters correctly on lined paper. Would it be better to wait and use the Writing With Ease along side the FLL. I don't want to hold her back, yet I don't wan to be in a rush either. She won't be 6 until February and is very different than all six of my other boys. I would have never considered starting them on FLL at 5 years of age.


Yeah. Girls are fun, particularly after boys. :001_smile: You're right that she's not ready for WWE yet, but you don't have to do the two simultaneously; you can start FLL now and WWE next year, and she'll be in great shape. (It's good to do FLL either before or simultaneously with WWE, but you don't have to do both of them at exactly the same time.

I also have a question about my 8 year old. We are still working on reading fluency. He has been a very slow and labored reader. Since purchasing OPG, he has improved in his reading skills by leaps and bounds! I am hoping to finish the OPG this summer. He will be 9 by August and we technically have him as a third grader. I purchased the FLL 3 for him and he has never had the FLL 1 and 2. After looking at the content in level 3, there was no doubt in my mind he was ready for that level. As far at writing is concerned, I am not sure where to start though. He does not like to write and has not used a writing program yet. He has beautiful handwriiting, but complains when I give him a paragraph to copy. He is not a good speller, but is making great improvements since we started using All About Spelling. After looking at the examples of the Writing With Ease lessons level 1 and 2, it seemed as though they appeared they would be too easy for my almost 9 year old. He does pretty good writing from dictaion, yet he mispells words a lot. He is improving every day though! Where do I begin with a writing program for him? I own IEW's Structure and Style program, but I have not listened to it. I also am somewhat drawn to Writing Strands, but I still am not sure what level I would start my son at. Level one looks too easy, but level 2 might be the right one. We are getting ready to purchase Tapestry of Grace and a writing handbook comes wth the program. They say it is an excellent book, but I am not sure how thorough the writing instruction is. I would appreciate any wise advice you can give me. Thank you!

If I were you, I'd start him on WWE, level 2. Even if the first exercises are too easy for him, he'll build valuable skills and confidence, and they grow more difficult as the year goes on. I'd go on to do WWE levels 3 and 4 as well, and then go on to either IEW or Writing Strands 4.

IEW would DEFINITELY be too much for him right now.

Hope this helps. (Thanks for the bump, training5!)

SWB

[OKCyndi]

I see it's for elementary, but would 2nd grade be too young? Or does it correlate to a particular FLL book? Thanks! Cyndi

[Susan Wise Bauer]

No, you can start right in with a second-grader. if the child can copy well and doesn't struggle too much with the physical act of writing, start with Level 2; if not, start with Level 1.

WWE can be used with any grammar program, but the copywork and dictation exercises do cover grammatical elements in the same order that they are covered in FLL.

SWB

[Sue G in PA]

so 2nd grade wouldn't be too young. I'm planning to use it w/ my 2nd grader. It doesn't necessarily "coorelate" to any of the FLL books, but seems to "jive" well with them if you KWIM. You can use one w/out the other or in conjunction with. Either way. SWB actually just posted an answer to a similar question under the WWE mega-thread.

[Sue G in PA]

I suppose you can disregard my answer, LOL! She sums it up much better! :)

[OKCyndi]

I love it when the voice from on high comes down to advise. I'm preordering!

[Pensguys]

Susan, I'd like your input please.

My ds is similar to the person you replied to above. He will be 9 and in 3rd grade this Fall. He has been diagnosed with dyslexia and dysgraphia but he is improving by leaps and bounds this year. He is reading on a 2nd grade level now and I hope he continues to improve as we plan to continue reading practice/lessons during the summer. We have been doing OT for the dysgraphia as well as some spatial issues and will finish that in May. His therapist says she believes cursive may be better for him so we intend to start that this Fall.

We worked through a LITTLE bit of FLL 1 (1st grade)last year and none this year (2nd) but I was mainly concerned with getting him reading and writing comfortably as well as getting his spelling going this year. Do you think it would be fine to just go through FLL1/2 at a quicker pace or start FLL3 along with WWE 2?

Thanks.

[training5]

bump

[jg_puppy]

I know it has been asked a few times, but when will samples of the level 2 workbook be available. I am still trying to figure our writing plans for next year and I would love to see a sample before deciding.

Jan

[Pensguys]

bump

[training5]

bumpy bump bump....hmmm...am I referring to my expanding pregnant belly or moving this thread to the top....

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Susan, I'd like your input please.

My ds is similar to the person you replied to above. He will be 9 and in 3rd grade this Fall. He has been diagnosed with dyslexia and dysgraphia but he is improving by leaps and bounds this year. He is reading on a 2nd grade level now and I hope he continues to improve as we plan to continue reading practice/lessons during the summer. We have been doing OT for the dysgraphia as well as some spatial issues and will finish that in May. His therapist says she believes cursive may be better for him so we intend to start that this Fall.

We worked through a LITTLE bit of FLL 1 (1st grade)last year and none this year (2nd) but I was mainly concerned with getting him reading and writing comfortably as well as getting his spelling going this year. Do you think it would be fine to just go through FLL1/2 at a quicker pace or start FLL3 along with WWE 2?

Thanks.

I'd stick with the FLL1/2 at a quicker pace plan, largely because it will introduce him to many of the concepts he'll encounter in FLL3, but will allow him more opportunity to practice orally. By the time you get to FLL3, the writing issues will be a little easier to deal with. And don't worry about "getting behind." You can do FLL3 and FLL4 and then go right into Rod & Staff 5, and since the Rod & Staff sequence finishes in tenth grade, you can start FLL 5 as late as seventh grade and still finish on time.

Make sense?

SWB

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I know it has been asked a few times, but when will samples of the level 2 workbook be available. I am still trying to figure our writing plans for next year and I would love to see a sample before deciding.

Jan

We'll put them up as soon as the typesetting is finished--definitely by midsummer. I'll keep you posted.

SWB

[Pensguys]

Thanks, Susan.....That makes me feel better.

[jg_puppy]

Thank you. I can't wait to see it and the new book.

Jan

[Southern_mom]

I have a son who will be 8-9 next school year.
However, he has some issues (Sensory Processing Disorder)
which has him reading at a 2nd grade level (reading aloud), but he doesn't
read to himself yet. He has speech delays.
Also, he has fine motor skill issues that caused me up to this point
to give him very little writing exercises. We do many things orally.
He hasn't started a spelling program although he can spell somewhat
and he hasn't had much grammar instruction.
I'm looking forward to jumping into all these areas next year as with
OT his tolerance for writing should improve.

That said, he is very smart. Would if be alright to start with FLL for
1st and 2nd grade while doing the first book of EIW and the accompanying workbooks? I'm concerned that starting him at the beginning (1st grade when he will be in 3rd) will set him back.
Should I skip the 1st grade part and move into the 2nd grade part
of the books? I don't think he's ready for 3rd in them.

Maybe because of his age we could move at an accelerated rate if we start behind?

Our other plans for the year will include:
4th grade math
All About Spelling
SOTW 1
BJU Reading 3rd
Bible
Home Science Adventures K-8.
HWT

Can Susan Wise Bauer or someone else as knowlegeable comment?
Thanks!
Southern Mom.

[Parrothead]

I did FLL 1&2 in dd's second grade year. I just skipped the repetition once she got it. If I remember correctly I doubled up on lessons up to lesson 80 then did one lesson at a time after that. It filled out 180 days of school.

[Pensguys]

SouthernMom, If you read up above, Susan addressed my post which is similar to yours. She said it would be just fine to do FLL1/2 at an accelerated pace and start with WWE Year 2.....and to not worry about being behind....THAT relieved a TON of stress I was feeling.

[Southern_mom]

Thanks for the replies!
Ok, So I will work at an accelerated speed through FFL 1/2
while doing EIW 1 or 2 at the same time. We may even choose
to do this during summer.
I also will try not to judge our progress by standards
we left behind when we left public school. :)
Thanks!

[TexasTea]

earlier in this thread (page 5 or 6?) I asked SWB for advise with my older non writers. This was in early Feb. and I have followed her advise to the letter with great success!

Here is what she advised:

<<Your high school writings...
Debbie,

Sorry it took me a couple of days to get back to this...the weekend happened.:)

Neither one of your kids needs to do any creative writing--it's absolutely NOT necessary for an educated person to write creatively. You either enjoy it, or you don't, and forcing a child who doesn't have a bent for creative writing to do creative assignments can result in a child who loathes ALL kinds of writing.

If I were you (and if you can swing it), I'd put the tenth grader into the IEW Student Classes on DVD series--starting with the writing intensive, then doing the continuation course, and aiming to finish up the high school essay at least by twelfth grade.

I'd start the seventh grader on Writing Strands, Book 5, finish the Writing Strands series, and then move her into the IEW student classes as well.

A word about IEW...I like the structure taught, but I personally dislike the dress-ups very much. "Style" should be a result of clear communication. Artificially teaching style can result in very awkward writing. So do the assignments...but I'd skip the dress-ups if I were you.

Let me know if you have more questions and I'll do my best to get back to you a little more promptly.>>


My 7th grader is almost finished with WS 4 and told me this week that it was 'kinda fun'! Whoo Hoo.

My 10th grader will finish IEW in 3 more weeks and has learned allot. She says she now feels she can take any writing assignment given in a program and do it without much trouble.

SWB really knows what she is talking about and I can't wait to try her new program for younger writers.

[KCR's Mom]

Hello! Our dd will be 6 in June. With help from OPG, she has been reading since she was 3, and she is fluent well beyond grade level. We expect to finish FLL-1 in a couple of weeks. Her handwriting is probably more on target for this age, and we have not been doing a formal program in this area.

So.... when we start WWE, we'll likely be into FLL-2 but she won't have a real comfort level with handwriting yet. Could you please advise where we should start WWE - level 1 or 2?

Many, many thanks - WTM truly inspired us to begin our HS journey, and your work continues to be a foundation and source of encouragement for us. :)

[mommy247]

Question for SWB.

Hello Susan, I can't believe that I am brave enough to ask you a question. I have been reading through all the threads concerning writing and still I am left with some questions.
Here is our info. I have four children that we will begin homeschooling next year after being in a private classical school ( you actually came and spoke to us here in Fort Worth several years back; which was WONDERFUL!)
My questions are mainly in regard to the older 2 children and writing. (I think I understand how to use WWEand/or FFL with the 5 year oid and 7 year old). The older children are 9 and 10 (respectively 4th and 6th grade next year). Could you elaborate on the strengths/weakness of IEW and CW curriculums. I have felt very drawn to CW, but worry that we would be missing out on the things that IEW is strong in. Is there a logical way to combine these writing programs, like one would with Math programs, in order to benefit from the strengths of each of them?
My number one priority next year is to get them confident, encouraged and equipped with their writing. They have done Shurly Grammar 9 year old through 3rd grade and 11 year old through 5th grade. YIKES! IT's not working and so I plan on using Rod and Staff, but would like to supplement the writing with CW. Perhaps IEW. Writing Strands didn't seem too appealing to us, but very straightforward.
We have had limited writing experience with narration, and dictation. The 11 year old has done some keyword outlines/dress ups but does not readily apply these.
What would be the overall benefit of doing CW? Why would I chose IEW over CW?

THANKS SO MUCH! Your influence on my family's educational journey has been such a profound blessing. I thank the Lord for the educational opportunites that my children have had and we are so looking forward to being home together next year to fill in the gaps! Your guidance has been exactly what we have needed and desired.

Renee

[Melissa in PA]

Hi Susan. I've read a bunch of your posts where you've answered questions about where to start a child in WWE. However, I haven't seen any posts that deal with my particular situation or a child his age.

I have a 3rd grader who can copy well but makes mistakes with dictation. He typically will have some spelling or punctuation errors. In reality, I'm guilty of neglecting dictation simply because I feel like it is teaching him bad habits. So, instead, we have been mainly focusing on copy work.

He regularly writes summaries and has no problem with summarizing what he's learned. Although he has had some nice pages, he typically has run on sentences and improper punctuation. Some of this, I've thought was a result of his cognitive ability being ahead of his composition skills.

So, where would you suggest starting him in WWE? I'm very torn about where to start him. Thanks for any insight you can provide!

[Tabitha]

...is going with WWE the better thing to do at this point?

Holy cow...I don't know what to use now after viewing samples online.

We did FLL for 1st and 2nd. GWG for 3rd. I thought I was gonna move to R&S English 4...or Writing Strands 3 with R&S or GWG...

Then I peeked at WWE and FLL 3 and 4.

Is it back tracking if I go to FLL 3? My dd knows all this info already.... GWG 3 has been very easy for her. But, I hate to think she's missed something (and we STILL love singing the Pronoun Song)!

My 3rd graders hand writing sucks, to put it simply. She is an avid and fluent reader. Her 5 yo sister writes much neater (just barely beginning to read). I won't be able to use FLL with my now 5 yo until she's in 2nd...it's just too much for her right now.

I do need a good writing program to help me knock it out of the 8 yo when she continually writes letters and numbers from the bottom up. I've been trying to get her to stop that for over 4 years. Nothing works.

My hang up is preferring to have the workbooks for her level with WWE...makes it easier to get her to do things that way.

Where do I go, and what do I use? She wants to write creatively, so I was leaning towards Writing Strands 3. However is R&S Eng. 4 doesn't need to be paired with writing anymore...I don't know.

I just keep this vicious circle going on in my head - how do I begin to know what to choose?

Tab

[mittmaman]

I am so sorry to bother you with my "organisational questions" but could you please let us know how many weeks there are in WWE 1 and 2 (and maybe also 3 & 4...). Also, are the weeks each structured the same, more or less?
Thank you so much!

[Oak Knoll Mom]

Would you be willing to post sample pages of the 3rd year section of WWE similar to what you did with the 1st year sample? It would be helpful to see an example of the 3rd year pages so I can see if it would be too much for me to do on my own. I'm wavering between putting my 3rd grader in the 2nd year workbook or forging ahead on my own with just the main book.

Thank you!

[training5]

bump

[meg:momof4]

I am very excited to see the new program, Writing With Ease. We used FLL last year, and my son did really well with it. My question is this, and given a new program, not sure what thoughts are on the subject. We are on year 2 with FLL (2nd grade) - should we start with Workbook 2 of WWE or just start at the beginning of the program? any thoughts?

[Pata]

I asked this question also a while back, there is a huge thread with all those questions, maybe somebody else will post a link(i don't know how!) or you could search for it. Basically SWB said that if your ds is doing copywork and some narration well they would be ready for level 2. It's my understanding that it moves into dictation part way through. I am going to order the book first, read it and the get the workbook when I know for sure where we are going to start. Hope that helps!

[Tabitha]

Yep, start at level 2. WWE has 4 levels, one for each FLL level. You can do this writing alongside the FLL written/copywork portion if your child needs more practice...or don't do the FLL written stuff and just do the WWE. Anyway, WWE is meant to complement FLL.

That's what I get from all the info....

Here's that nice long thread the poster above referred to:
http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4853&highlight=wwe

Tab

[meg:momof4]

perfect. that answered all my questions. thanks ladies!

[Susan Wise Bauer]

The older children are 9 and 10 (respectively 4th and 6th grade next year). Could you elaborate on the strengths/weakness of IEW and CW curriculums. I have felt very drawn to CW, but worry that we would be missing out on the things that IEW is strong in. Is there a logical way to combine these writing programs, like one would with Math programs, in order to benefit from the strengths of each of them?
My number one priority next year is to get them confident, encouraged and equipped with their writing. They have done Shurly Grammar 9 year old through 3rd grade and 11 year old through 5th grade. YIKES! IT's not working and so I plan on using Rod and Staff, but would like to supplement the writing with CW. Perhaps IEW. Writing Strands didn't seem too appealing to us, but very straightforward.
We have had limited writing experience with narration, and dictation. The 11 year old has done some keyword outlines/dress ups but does not readily apply these.
What would be the overall benefit of doing CW? Why would I chose IEW over CW?

Sorry it took me a while to get to this thread! I'll offer a couple of thoughts, with this qualifier: I've examined both of these programs, but I haven't used them with my own children (I'm a writer and I have strong opinions about how writing should be taught, so I do my own thing :001_smile:).

First, I think either program would equip your kids with writing skills, so you don't have to fret too much about making a big mistake with your choices. If you feel drawn to CW, I'd go with CW.

Second, differences: IMO, CW has a more global approach to writing--a wider focus on general writing skills, on THINKING about writing, on doing types of writing which aren't necessarily going to prepare students directly for upper high school and college writing, but which are nevertheless valuable and interesting. IEW is more narrowly focused on essay prep, especially in the upper grades. That's not a bad or good thing, just a difference in emphasis.

Third, strengths and weaknesses: I've said before that I don't think CW has enough parent helps, especially for parents who are apprehensive about teaching writing or who feel unprepared--this may be a nonissue for you, but I'd definitely review the course before purchasing it. And, as a general observation...my own preference is to do the progym in high school and to spend the middle school years working on outlining skills and structure--the logic of writing. IEW does a very good job with this. However, for me the big weakness of IEW is the whole dress-up element of the program. The idea of artificially shaping sentences by inserting various elements is kind of...abhorrent. Style should be a by-product of clear straightforward expression. (DISCLAIMER. I like Andrew Pudewa, he's an excellent teacher, his program is valuable, many people use it well, but I'm a writer and this facet of IEW bugs me, probably out of all proportion.)

Fourth, random thoughts: I'm guessing that if you didn't like Shurley you might not enjoy IEW--it seems to me that the teaching styles are similar.

Conclusion: you can make either program work for you. If you're drawn to CW, follow your instincts and use it. You might consider picking up the IEW high school essay course, when the kids are a bit older, and running them through that to cover all your bases.

Hope this helps. I'm kind of reluctant now to post about other writing programs because 1) as I'm producing my own, I'm no longer a particularly objective observer, and 2) I don't want my highly personal opinions (see above) taken as either condemnation or endorsement. Or reproduced as such on other home school sites. Those are my OPINIONS.

Here's something that you can take as actual DIRECTION, though. Do the program you're drawn to and don't fall into the trap of worrying about the things you're "missing." Either program will build strong basic skills.

SWB

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Would you be willing to post sample pages of the 3rd year section of WWE similar to what you did with the 1st year sample? It would be helpful to see an example of the 3rd year pages so I can see if it would be too much for me to do on my own. I'm wavering between putting my 3rd grader in the 2nd year workbook or forging ahead on my own with just the main book.

Thank you!

Working on it!

SWB

[mommy247]

SWB,

I just wanted to thank you so much for your insights and encouragement. I am still undecided at the moment, but you have given me greater confidence in which ever decision we make in regards to writing. Final question, would anything in WWE that will be published currently be of use to my 9 and 11 year olds? (Remember that I mentioned we had limited experience with narration and dictation).

Blessings,
Renee Earl

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Final question, would anything in WWE that will be published currently be of use to my 9 and 11 year olds? (Remember that I mentioned we had limited experience with narration and dictation).

Depends. The purpose of narration and dictation is to help students develop basic skills in getting words down on paper. If your 9 and/or 11 yo can tell you what they want to write, out loud, using complete well-formed sentences, they don't need to do narration. If they can take those sentences and put them down on paper without struggling with spelling and punctuation, and without asking you constantly to help them remember what they're trying to write, they don't need to do dictation. If they struggle in either of these areas, they could benefit from the last two years of lessons on WWE.

SWB

[Beth in SW WA]

Susan,
Will you have any new materials ready to sell at WHO in June? My visa is locked and loaded :)

Will you address logic and/or rhetoric stage writing at any of your workshops?

Thanks!!

[Oak Knoll Mom]

Working on it!

SWB

Thank you! Looking forward to seeing them.

[mommy247]

SWB.:

Thanks again. I think I am more clear now where they are in their abilities. Looking forward to using WWE with the littlekinz (5 & 6) for sure.

Blessings!
Renee

[mo2]

but I couldn't find anything using the search feature and don't have to scan through umpteen pages of this thread!

Would it be good/possible/make sense to use WWE for 1-4 and then go into CW? I've been planning on using CW all along, but now, of course, you've got my interest with WWE!

[Jumping In Puddles]

So it seems for someone just learning to write, Susan is recommending FLL and WWE together for the grammar stage.

I have also read good things about WT. How does this compare?

Thanks!

[tinkgumby]

I was planning on having my boys use D'Nealian manuscript for copywork and handwriting this fall, but I love the look of WWE and workbook. Is it too confusing if the workbook examples are in one style and I want them to write in another? Or maybe I should give up on D'Nealian entirely??? I'm open to suggestions! (:

[Pensguys]

What style of handwriting do they use now? My ds used HWT, but his spelling book (Apples and Pears) uses something similar to D'Nealian....it doesn't bother him at all.

I remember being a new homeschooler and sweating all the small stuff. This is one of those small things that I consider nothing to worry about.

[tinkgumby]

What style of handwriting do they use now?

My older son has learned D'Nealian in 1st grade, and my son in K is just doing regular print. I like the look of D'Nealian and how it transitions to cursive, but maybe I am just sweating the small stuff! Thanks! (:

[Pensguys]

He has some handwriting problems, but it is just a regular no font plain old print. Same with my older son.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Would it be good/possible/make sense to use WWE for 1-4 and then go into CW? I've been planning on using CW all along, but now, of course, you've got my interest with WWE!

I think that would be a good plan. :001_smile:

SWB

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I was planning on having my boys use D'Nealian manuscript for copywork and handwriting this fall, but I love the look of WWE and workbook. Is it too confusing if the workbook examples are in one style and I want them to write in another? Or maybe I should give up on D'Nealian entirely??? I'm open to suggestions! (:

You know, I wanted to use D'Nealian for my boys too, but I ended up with a couple of literalists...they wanted their handwriting to look like what was in the books they read. They used to go off in corners and write in manuscript, so I finally gave up.

Having said that...I think D'Nealian is a great system. You have three options. You can tell them to copy the workbook examples but use their D'Nealian style (they may be able to do this without trouble). You can copy the examples out yourself in D'Nealian for them (they're not too long). Or you can change over to a continuous stroke handwriting program that looks more like standard manuscript. All three are good options.

SWB

[Jumping In Puddles]

Just to be clear,

If I plan on using Writing With Ease in 1st grade, then do I need another writing/grammar program like FLL, or is WWE a complete program?

[training5]

You will need a grammar program. WWE is the writing portion only.

[Strawberry Queen]

You need a grammar program to go with WWE. We're almost finished FLL1+2 and we've loved it. I'll use it again in the fall for the second time.

HTH

[kimmyandgracie]

I have a ds13 who has a learning disability in language. He is reading on about a 4th grade reading level and he can copy a verse of scripture without much difficulty (he is able to do the copying, but it takes him a while). We have not really attempted dictation. He is still struggling with narration. He can do a 3-4 sentence oral narration from a section of a chapter from SOTW, but he requires several leading questions and assistance in organizing his sentences. This year, he did R&S grammar 2 with minimal to moderate assistance and he is through the majority of the book. I am wondering if FLL and WWE could be a good fit for him. If so, what level would you suggest as an appropriate starting place for him?
Thanks in advance for your time.

[KCR's Mom]

We heard you might have had a flu battle - hope everyone is well now! I had posted this a few weeks ago and haven't seen a response. Can you please help? Thank you!!!!

Hello! Our dd will be 6 in June. With help from OPG, she has been reading since she was 3, and she is fluent well beyond grade level. We expect to finish FLL-1 in May. Her handwriting is probably more on target for this age, and we have not been doing a formal program in this area.

So.... when we start WWE, we'll likely be into FLL-2 but she won't have a real comfort level with handwriting yet. Could you please advise where we should start WWE - level 1 or 2?

Many, many thanks - WTM truly inspired us to begin our HS journey, and your work continues to be a foundation and source of encouragement for us. :)

[Kmommy]

I know there was a HUGE thread on this, and my eyes drooped reading all of it.
I get it, but the workbooks for the levels they have out now are probably to "young" for her. She will be in 4th/5th this year. I know you can use the book without the workbooks. But does the book give you suggestions on "where" to find passages to use for dictation/copywork?
I have the Harp and the Laurel Wreath, can I use that?

Also, from what I understand, I can use FLL 4 with this?

What does SWB recommend after FLL4, is it Rod and Staff? I like R+S but LOATHE diagramming.

Thanks:)

[Kmommy]

anyone?

[training5]

None of us have seen the book so no idea about suggestions. TWTM always suggested bits from the child's science, history, or current reading book.

Yes, FLL4 is supposed to be the other half for WWE. R&S is recommended after FLL4.

I LOATHE diagramming as well, so we aren't doing those bits of it. My guys used GWG4 this year and we just skipped the diagramming lessons. Making it work for us is what I try to keep in mind. If a bit doesn't fit and isn't, as I see it, essential, we skip it.

HTH!

[Lovedtodeath]

So it seems for someone just learning to write, Susan is recommending FLL and WWE together for the grammar stage.

I have also read good things about WT. How does this compare?

Thanks!

I was wondering this too. As it stands now, I can only find samples for 1. A sample from the third grade program would help me choose between the two.

I do know that writing tales includes grammar and a little bit of creativity, and my guess is that WWE has neither in 3&4.

[ldee]

..

[Lovedtodeath]

I am not sure that this merged thread is working well. I mean no disrespect, but I see several questions with no responses and most of us don't want to read through 19 pages of posts.

[Lovedtodeath]

Working on it!

SWB

Okay, I delved into a few pages and see the third year samples are being worked on! yay!

I want to add to SWB Thank You for writing this program. I was not happy with any others out there, and the task of doing it myself without direction seemed daunting and time consuming. This was exactly what I was looking for.

[CMH]

I thought I saw a thread about it, but I can't find it!

[tinkgumby]

If you look at the top of the curriculum board here, there's a sticky thread on WWE. I think any threads about WWE get merged into it.

If you already knew that and just wanted more specific info, I guess I'm not all that helpful after all. ;)

*edit* According to www.peacehillpress.com, they're expecting a mid-summer release.

[Oak Knoll Mom]

Working on it!

SWB

When should we expect to see these?

[BAM]

Hopefully Susan can answer this. I use FFL 1 now with a first grader; I am wondering now what the similarities and differences might be between IEW and WWE? Also will Peacehill press be at HEAV? Will WWE be available for purchase there?

[LillianinAL]

or is it necessary to add another program to it? It seems like a lot of people add another program. I am planning 5th and 6th grade next year. I am VERY pleased with R&S Grammar, and I think my boys have learned some writing too. I have Writing Strands through Level 5, which I like more than earlier levels. I like the looks of Wordsmith for my oldest and Wordsmith Apprentice for the next boy, but I don't want to do too many programs. I agree with you about the dress-ups in IEW. That has never appealed to me either. I do use narration, copywork, and dictation in the early grades. They will continue to write summaries and outlines next year.

I am very excited to get Writing With Ease for my girls, grades 3, 2, and later, my four year old.

So I don't have lots of extra time to teach writing, but I want to do a thorough job and keep my boys moving forward in that area. What are your recommendations?

I hope to see you in Atlanta in July. Thanks so much! Lillian

[Lovedtodeath]

Could someone explain why I would need a grammar program in addition to WWE? It looks pretty thorough to me.

[training5]

WWE is just the writing portion...no grammar instruction is included. SWB suggests FLL as the perfect compliment. There is a little explanation about how the two programs work together on the PeaceHill Press home page.

HTH!

[Susan Wise Bauer]

or is it necessary to add another program to it? It seems like a lot of people add another program. I am planning 5th and 6th grade next year. I am VERY pleased with R&S Grammar, and I think my boys have learned some writing too. I have Writing Strands through Level 5, which I like more than earlier levels. I like the looks of Wordsmith for my oldest and Wordsmith Apprentice for the next boy, but I don't want to do too many programs. I agree with you about the dress-ups in IEW. That has never appealed to me either. I do use narration, copywork, and dictation in the early grades. They will continue to write summaries and outlines next year.

Lillian,

R&S is a good program, but I think adding Wordsmith and Wordsmith Apprentice to it would help to fill in some of the areas R&S doesn't cover--R&S will teach you how to do all the standard school-type papers, but Wordsmith will give you a wider range. Also, you should feel free to skip writing exercises in R&S that strike you as unnecessarily repetitive.

I haven't been very good at keeping up with this thread, but I'll try to keep answering questions as they're posted.

SWB

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Hopefully Susan can answer this. I use FFL 1 now with a first grader; I am wondering now what the similarities and differences might be between IEW and WWE? Also will Peacehill press be at HEAV? Will WWE be available for purchase there?

WWE is specifically intended for BEGINNING writers--it is meant to teach children the basics of putting words on paper. Go to peacehillpress.com and read the chapters posted online (particularly Chapter 3)-- the purpose of the program is laid out there. IEW is useful for kids who've already mastered the basics of writing.

We won't be at HEAV (sorry!).

SWB

[LillianinAL]

I'll take your suggestions. I'm excited about my boys using Wordsmith too. That is the way I was leaning.

Have a great day!
Blessings,
Lillian

[kimmyandgracie]

I have a ds13 who has a learning disability in language. He is reading on about a 4th grade reading level and he can copy a verse of scripture without much difficulty (he is able to do the copying, but it takes him a while). We have not really attempted dictation. He is still struggling with narration. He can do a 3-4 sentence oral narration from a section of a chapter from SOTW, but he requires several leading questions and assistance in organizing his sentences. This year, he did R&S grammar 2 with minimal to moderate assistance and he is through the majority of the book. I am wondering if FLL and WWE could be a good fit for him. If so, what level would you suggest as an appropriate starting place for him?
Thanks in advance for your time.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I think I would start him in FLL3, planning on moving slowly (take two years to finish the book if necessary) and also in Writing With Ease, starting with the central text and also the Level Two workbook--if he's copying, he doesn't need to do the first workbook. The second will give him plenty of dictation and narration practice without overwhelming him.

[kimmyandgracie]

Thank you so much!

[Tutor]

I can't remember, when are pre-orders supposed to ship? Soon, right? (My email has been wonky, so I hope I don't miss the email for payment/ shipping info).

[Oak Knoll Mom]

I can't remember, when are pre-orders supposed to ship? Soon, right? (My email has been wonky, so I hope I don't miss the email for payment/ shipping info).

Oh, no! I went and checked PHP website, and it looks like I've missed the pre-order window for the WWE workbooks. I was waiting on samples of the third year portion of the textbook to decide whether or not I should go through year 2 (with workbook) or year 3 (without workbook).

[TN Mama]

You can also pre-order the books on amazon.com.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

We're just waiting on the shipment to arrive from the printer. We'll let you know when they start going out.

And...you can still pre-order. :-) Send a note to order@peacehillpress.com.

Susan

[nukeswife]

I can't wait to get the email about payment. I know, what kind of weirdo looks forward to getting an email asking for money? LOL The kind that's been in desperate need of a good writing program to fit her child for the last 2 years. That kind of weirdo would be me:tongue_smilie:

[Kim]

Here at the Peace Hill Press office, we are working hard to notify our customers that have preordered Writing with Ease and WWE workbook 1. We are notifying everyone via email at the rate of one hundred or so a day. Please be patient, we will get to everyone on the list. If you would like to go ahead and call our office to give us your payment information, please call during regular business hours (9am to 3pm) eastern time. Then disregard the general email when you recieve it. We are planning to ship the books right around the end of the month. Thank you in advance for your patience.

:grouphug: Kim and the Folks at Peace Hill

[mhblue5]

This was probably asked already, but there are sooo many posts to go through... I was wondering if the WWE 2 workbook is necessary or if any white lined paper/notebook work just as well.

Thank you!http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

[TN Mama]

IIRC the workbooks are not necessary, but will just make implementing easier. If I'm wrong someone please correct me. :)

[Lovedtodeath]

The workbook will give you specific passages for copywork, narration and dictation exercises, presented for the child. The main text book WWE will give you "how to" but you will have to decide what passages you will have your DC copy, narrate, etc. and find a way to present them. Hope I explained that well. I have decided to go with just the text for now.

[jina]

I am also confused. I see that there is a sample of the student pages and the teacher pages (in addition to the text sample chapters). Are the "parent pages" in the textbook, a separate PARENT workbook or part of the STUDENT workbook? I like the parent pages and want them, but I'm not sure in which book they are located?

:confused::confused:

Thanks!
Jina

[WABeth]

I am also confused. I see that there is a sample of the student pages and the teacher pages (in addition to the text sample chapters). Are the "parent pages" in the textbook, a separate PARENT workbook or part of the STUDENT workbook? I like the parent pages and want them, but I'm not sure in which book they are located?Jina


Hi Jina, I was able to look through the galleys for WWE at the WHO Convention this last weekend. The Parent page and Student page examples you see at the PHP site are both contained in the Year One Student Workbook. The workbook has the teacher (or parent) pages in the front which tell the teacher exactly what to say and do. The back portion of the workbook has worksheets that the student can actually fill in. I hope that makes sense.

[TN Mama]

:)

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Hi Jina, I was able to look through the galleys for WWE at the WHO Convention this last weekend. The Parent page and Student page examples you see at the PHP site are both contained in the Year One Student Workbook. The workbook has the teacher (or parent) pages in the front which tell the teacher exactly what to say and do. The back portion of the workbook has worksheets that the student can actually fill in. I hope that makes sense.

That's absolutely right--the workbooks are designed like the Story of the World Activity Books, with all parent instructions in the front and consumable worksheets at the back. Each workbook lays out complete lessons for one year. The central Writing With Ease text gives you the philosophy, the overall plan, an overview of Grades 1-4, a how-to for parents who want to pick their own texts from history and science instead of using the texts we provide in the workbooks, and guidance in trouble-shooting common writing problems.

SWB

[jina]

Will we still need to do a separate handwriting curriculum - or is that part of WWE? I can't figure out if this is handwriting, composition, narration, dictation, ??? I saw a post that says it works along with FLL...I guess I just need to know if I should continue with a separate handwriting program if I plan to use WWE. I have a first grader this year. We started last year with HWT because of fine motor delay. Trying to figure out if he'll be able to use this program or not.

Thanks.

Jina

[training5]

Yep, it isn't a handwriting program so you will need to choose another one. We LOVE HWT here, BTW.

[Targhee]

I didn't ready EVERY post in the sticky thread above about WWE (too many, and it began to add to my confusion).

Can anyone tell me why you would need both First Language Lessons and Writing With Ease for 1st grade when PHP's website even says "The only book you need to teach grammar and writing for first and second grade" about First Language Lessons?

[Linda]

Yes, yes! Someone please answer this!:bigear:

[FlockOfSillies]

Maybe they've had the description on the website for several years and haven't updated it?

[Pata]

We are only using FLL for that for that reason, it just seemed like overkill. We are already narrating in history and science, all I did was add alittle copywork and I think that's plenty for first.

However, I am planning on buying the book later this year so that I can become a better teacher. I would like to read SWB philosophy on teaching writing and apply those things to what we are already doing.

[Targhee]

:confused1:
I was thinking FLL might be enough as well. But if so, why develop WWE?

bumping in hopes someone has a definitive answer

[nukeswife]

Not sure if it's the reasoning, but maybe for people, that only need or are only looking for a writing curriculum. My kids didn't do well with the way FLL presented grammar so we use something else, but I need something for writing and none of the other programs have worked. So instead of having an all encompassing program like FLL, WWE gives me just the specific area I need.

Just a thought, clear as mud hey? :001_smile:

[Targhee]

:confused1:
I was thinking FLL might be enough as well. But if so, why develop WWE?

bumping in hopes someone has a definitive answer

[Targhee]

So instead of having an all encompassing program like FLL, WWE gives me just the specific area I need.


Was this the intent?

[StephanieF]

still not sure lol! Perhaps when people have seen it it will become clearer?
Stephanie

[Targhee]

why did this get moved!?! The reason I made a separate thread is because this monstrous one is unruly and ineffective for finding information :mad:

I was hoping for an answer, but over here feels like being in a black hole. Hope someone can answer my question, which I will restate just in case you missed it on the previous page:

Can anyone tell me why you would need both First Language Lessons and Writing With Ease for 1st grade when PHP's website even says "The only book you need to teach grammar and writing for first and second grade" about First Language Lessons?

[admin]

All WWE questions are combined into 1 thread because they are easier for Susan to find and answer that way. She doesn't have time to constantly search for all of the separate threads. In addition, when people call the office and want to know more about WWE, we direct them to this one thread so they don't have to search all over the forums.

There is a "Search this Thread" option at the top of the page that may help you find something more specific within this thread.

Hope that helps.

[Homeschooling6]

:confused1:
I was thinking FLL might be enough as well. But if so, why develop WWE?

bumping in hopes someone has a definitive answer

Hmm, I'm only guessing here. I plan to use WWE but am not doing any formal grammar for 1st & 2nd grade.

Maybe it can be used if you are using another grammar program (as someone has mentioned) or if you are not using anything formal at the time:glare: like I said, I'm just taking a wild guess.

This gets me thinking, can you use WWE without using a formal grammar program? Will it still work? I think it will. They know some basic grammar. Can't wait to get my hands on WWE.

Sorry I added more questions than answers. Maybe Susan will answer soon.

Blessings,