Appropriate Age for Fallacy Detective?

[jpklehm]

I have a son who is 10 and going into grade 5. He takes everything so literally that I think it will be good for him to have some instruction in logic and fallacies.

I was looking at Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox at Rainbow Resource and was shocked to see an example that discussed abortion. I was surprised to see this! :ohmy:This is a topic that we haven't discussed with him yet, and therefore he's not ready for at this time. I realize it's for grades 7 and up, but I have read about other parents who are using it with children who are younger, like my son's age.

Does anyone know of a book or books on logic/fallacies that are good tools to work on with students, and that are age appropriate for 10 or 11 year olds? I intend on reading through TWTM again to see what they recommend, as well. Any recommendations would be appreciated!

Thanks,
PAM

[Fourmother]

:lurk5: I'll be watching this thread with great interest.

[jpklehm]

Ok, Auntie K. and others who responded to the "Is logic really necessary?" question... I didn't see this post until I had already sent mine, so I'll read through all the responses with great interest!

But again, please post if you have any recommendations or any opinions to add!

PAM

[Lori D.]

I haven't read the "Is logic necessary" thread, and the following is just my opinion from our own experience, but...

We chose to do a lot of critical thinking puzzles, games, activities, etc. and save straight up logic until our boys were older and had more brain maturity to both understand and apply the logic. DH is very bright and intellectual, and took a lot of advanced courses in high school -- but had formal logic in college, and he says he got far more out of it in college at age 18-19, than he would have in highschool, and esp. in junior high.

Additionally, we see logic as a tool rather than an end in itself. (Similarly, we see grammar as a tool for use in proper speaking/rhetoric, good writing, understanding foreign languages, etc. -- rather than as an end in itself.) We see logic as a tool for use in thinking through decisions and especially the consequences of choices; determining motives of others (ex.: ads, political speeches, etc.); in understanding worldview; in participating in social, religious and philosophical discussions; etc. (For our family, as Christians, logic is a tool for helping us to discern God's Truth.)

So what logic has looked like practically and specifically for us in our homeschooling journey so far:


gr. 1-5 (approximately ages 6-11)
- Wide variety of critical thinking puzzles, visual puzzles, and logic puzzles to stimulate a range of problem solving skills and "out of the box" thinking.
- Talk about consequences to choices; begin to train our children to look ahead before making decisions.


gr. 4-7 (approximately ages 10-13)
- Continue the above puzzles/games/etc.
- Add in gentle intro to more specific logic through the Dandylion 3 book set.
- Continue talking about consequences.
- Begin to use books and movies as examples to be discussed.


gr. 7-8 (approximately ages 13-14)
- A little of the above puzzles/games/etc.
- Begin to introduce logic/fallacies through Thinking Toolbox and Fallacy Detective.
- Continue talking about consequences, but moving it more towards asking them what they see as potential consequences to various decisions; prayerfully beginning to introduce those big, tough issues such as abortion, the Columbine shootings, is torture ever justified, etc. -- AS APPROPRIATE for the child's age/ability/sensitivity -- in discussion.
- Discuss together ads, political speeches, etc., looking for fallacies.
- Begin to analyze books and movies together using literary and cinematic elements, but with the purpose of beginning to discern motivations, worldviews, consequences, etc.


gr. 9-12 (approximately ages 14-19)
- Puzzles/games/etc. now as a hobby, for fun or for family game nights.
- Work in a formal logic program, perhaps all in one year, or perhaps spread it out, about 1/4 of a logic program a year.
- Continue discussing consequences to various decisions and prayerfully discussing those big, tough issues. Reading short selections out of books at dinner time can be very helpful for jump starting conversation (ex: "The Pig Who Wanted to Be Eaten" = short philosophical discussion starters).
- Continue to analyze together ads, political speeches, etc.
- Analyze books and movies together using literary and cinematic elements, but with the purpose of beginning to discern motivations, worldviews, consequences, etc.
(- For us, as Christians, attend a summer camp that encourages critical, logical, Christian, thinking -- such as Worldview Academy or Summit.)


Apologies if this post should have gone into the "Is Logic Necessary" thread. Below is a list of some specific resources we've found helpful for different ages. Hope something here is of help, and not just ramblings! :tongue_smilie: Warmly, Lori D.



grade K-3

workbooks:
- Critical Thinking Activities in Pattern, Image, Logic (gr. 1-3) -- by Seymour
- Logic Safari (book 1 = gr. 2-3; book 2 = gr. 3-4)
- Lollipop Logic (gr. K-2)
- Primarily Logic (gr. 2-4)
- Connections series (by grade level)

puzzle books:
- Gifted and Talented series (K-4 gr.) -- by Amerikander, or others
- Puzzlemania series (gr. 1-5) -- best of Highlights magazine variety of puzzles
- Hidden Picture Puzzle books -- collection of hidden picture puzzles from Highlights

software:
- Logic Journey of the Zoombinis (by grade level)
- Revenge of the Logic Spiders (by grade level)
- Crazy Contraptions series (gr. 3+)
- Operation: Neptune (gr. 3-6)
- Mission: T.H.I.N.K. (gr. 2-6)

games:
- Set
- Duo
- Secret Door
- Blokus
- Scan (old Parker Brothers game, usually available on ebay)
- Clue

solo logic activities:
- Logix
- Scramble Squares
- Tangrams
- Rush Hour Junior

simple puzzle pages:
- mazes
- word searches
- Where's Waldo
- search and find type of books



gr. 4-6 (prep for logic)

logic books:
- Dandylion Logic series:
1. Logic Countdown = gr. 3-4
2. Logic Liftoff = gr. 4-5
3. Orbiting with Logic = gr. 5-7
- Logic Safari series (book 2 = gr. 3-4; book 3 = gr. 5-6)
- Connections series (by grade level)

workbooks:
- Mindbenders
- Perplexors (like Mendbenders)
- Puzzlemania series (gr. 1-5)
- Dr. Funster Think-A-Minutes (gr. 3-6)
- Dr. Funster's Creative Thinking Puzzlers (gr. 3-6)
- Critical Thinking Activities in Pattern, Image, Logic (gr. 4-6) -- by Seymour

software:
- Logic Journey of the Zoombinis (by grade level)
- Revenge of the Logic Spiders (by grade level)
- Crazy Contraptions series (gr. 3+)
- Operation: Neptune (gr. 3-6)
- Mission: T.H.I.N.K. (gr. 2-6)

games:
- Mastermind
- Amazing Labrynth
- 221 B. Baker Street
- Checkers
- Chess
- Boggle
- Scrabble
- Quarto

puzzle pages:
- mazes
- crosswords, word jumbles, anagrams
- codes, cryptograms
- sudoku puzzles

books (solving "whodunnits"):
- Encyclopedia Brown series (Sobol)
- Roman Mysteries series (Lawrence)
- 17th century Japanese boy and samurai mysteries by Dorothy Hoobler
- Nancy Drew series (Keene)
- Hardy Boys series (Dixon)
- minute mystery books by Conrad, Sobol, Weber, and others


gr. 7-8 (intro to logic)

critical thinking books:
- Mindbenders
- Perplexors (like Mindbenders)
- Word Winks; More Word Winks (like Think-A-Grams) -- pub. by Mindware
- Plexors, More Plexers (like Think-A-Grams) -- by Seymour
- Critical Thinking Activities in Pattern, Image, Logic (gr. 7-12) -- by Seymour
- 10-Minute Critical-Thinking Activities for Englishy (gr. 5-12) -- by Eaton; Walch Pub.
- 10-Minute Critical-Thinking Activities for Algebra (gr. 9-12) -- by Martin; Walch Pub.

logic books:
- Art of Argument (Larson/Hodge)
- Fallacy Detective; Thinking Toolbox (Bluedorn)

games:
- Checkers
- Chess
- Boggle
- Scrabble
- Quarto
- Tetrus
- Risk
- other strategy computer/board games

puzzle pages:
- crosswords, word jumbles, anagrams
- codes, cryptograms
- sudoku puzzles

solving "whodunnits"

[jpklehm]

Fantastic, Lori, thank you for your recommendations. This gives me some ground to stand on! :001_smile: I appreciate it.

PAM

[Peela]

I just wanted to say that even though the Fallacy Detective has some unsuitable topics for discussion, most of the book is fine and you could easily skip those topics- you hold the book, read it aloud and do it together.

I would say that even though many younger kids can technically use these books (FD and TT), I think a more mature mind is better, just because the more a child is aware of the world around them and the issues in it, the more they can get out of the books.

[Testimony]

I did not see the "Is Logic Necessary?" thread until I read this post. I am away in Florida right now. The critcism in that post, just base on page 1, seems to be about Fallacy Detective.

The question here is "what is the appropriate age?" I liked so much Lori's comment. Thank's Lori that was helpful.

I agree that playing games helps a child with logic. I spoke to Laurie Bluedorn personally (she gave me her home number. she is a beautiful woman). She told me that grammar is logic. I spoke to a man who spoke about logic and he said that to a degree grammar is logic. By the way, Laurie Bluedorn is the mother of the two boys who wrote Fallacy Detective.

I would do the Fallacy Detective at whatever age you felt your child was ready to handle the topic or like Peela said, skip over the topics that are not appropriate.

Blessings in your homeschool journey!

Sincerely,
Karen
www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[Testimony]

I posted a response in the "Is Logic Necessary?" thread. I said that the reason I am teaching logic to my children is I failed my logic class in college. College was the first time I was exposed to logic. I just did not want that to be my sons experience either.

Blessing in your homeschool journey!

Sincerely,
Karen
www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[ChristineMM]

I had an interesting experience with my 8 YO/grade 3 precocious child who loves workbooks. While doing logic workbooks (countdown to logic series) he can do them just fine when they are real things but when they are nonsense examples that do use the logical thinking principles he can't do them. For example questions asking like all dogs are brown, brown dogs named spot are all dogs named spot, he can do it but questions like all wangdoodles are fuzzy and xherts are small are all xherts small and fuzzy he has no clue.

Spoke to HS mom who has older kids and follows WTM and she said that is proof that kids are not ready until a little older for pure logic.

Interesting.

Regarding logic programs not filled with religion is the concensus that no secular logic program exists as a curriculum not games and math related?

[Spy Car]

In my time on earth this is the first and only instance when I've ever thrown a perfectly fine copy of a book into the trash.

I naively purchased this work, with the cute looking doggy dressed up like Sherlock Holmes on the cover and all, and I thought I was "safe". Reading it I felt like I'd been mugged. Dreadful!

Not in a million years would I subject a child to the Fallacy Detective. Of all the "so-called" logic books that get twisted to author's ends, this one in my estimation is the worst.

Bill