Please don't blast me- parenting help with a 6 yr old- no spanking suggestions please

[lighthouseacademy]

I am hesitant to ask for help because so many ask for help and get blasted. My oldest is having some difficulty expressing his frustration with not getting his way or with earning a consequence for inappropriate behavior in an appropriate way. I know that some of this is developmental- testing the boundaries for safety and reaffirming that has a little more self-sufficiency than he used to. I am by no means a lax parent. I try not to be heavy handed either. Time outs and spankings are not appropriate answers to my problems- I have tried them out of desperation and they only backfire and cause more anger.

Every time ds doesn't like something that is said to him he will usually demand something along the lines of "Don't say that mean thing to me." Or he will threaten me that he is going to have Daddy talk to me about being mean to him. Sometimes if he is really mean he says something like, "If you do that I will smote off your head." or "I will have to think of a good consequence for you because that is not ok!" (none of this is a repeat of something I have said to him except the consequence, we have had to think of consequences once or twice).
Today he said, "If you do that (keep his music player because he would not turn it down after being asked politely to turn it down and then arguing that it wasn't possible that I heard it from the other side of the house) then I will kill you after rest time!"

Is this normal 6 yr old power struggle behavior? Should I address the junk behavior or ignore it? It seems when I call him on the stupid comments they get more frequent. He truly has no idea what he is saying. The other day he told dh, after a similar event, that he "wasn't going to stand for me being in the house anymore." I heard it on the baby monitor and I laughed so hard because it was so ridiculous. He is frustrated and I know that he wants his way and he wants it now. He has not figured out how to appropriately express his frustration and he is still learning about logical and natural consequences both good and bad. He is frustrated that he can't be the dictator. This child is extremely smart with math and reading, but emotionally he seems to be a little on the slow side. So, how would you handle this?

[Scarlett]

I am hesitant to ask for help because so many ask for help and get blasted. My oldest is having some difficulty expressing his frustration with not getting his way or with earning a consequence for inappropriate behavior in an appropriate way. I know that some of this is developmental- testing the boundaries for safety and reaffirming that has a little more self-sufficiency than he used to. I am by no means a lax parent. I try not to be heavy handed either. Time outs and spankings are not appropriate answers to my problems- I have tried them out of desperation and they only backfire and cause more anger.

Every time ds doesn't like something that is said to him he will usually demand something along the lines of "Don't say that mean thing to me." Or he will threaten me that he is going to have Daddy talk to me about being mean to him. Sometimes if he is really mean he says something like, "If you do that I will smote off your head." or "I will have to think of a good consequence for you because that is not ok!" (none of this is a repeat of something I have said to him except the consequence, we have had to think of consequences once or twice).
Today he said, "If you do that (keep his music player because he would not turn it down after being asked politely to turn it down and then arguing that it wasn't possible that I heard it from the other side of the house) then I will kill you after rest time!"

Is this normal 6 yr old power struggle behavior? Should I address the junk behavior or ignore it? It seems when I call him on the stupid comments they get more frequent. He truly has no idea what he is saying. The other day he told dh, after a similar event, that he "wasn't going to stand for me being in the house anymore." I heard it on the baby monitor and I laughed so hard because it was so ridiculous. He is frustrated and I know that he wants his way and he wants it now. He has not figured out how to appropriately express his frustration and he is still learning about logical and natural consequences both good and bad. He is frustrated that he can't be the dictator. This child is extremely smart with math and reading, but emotionally he seems to be a little on the slow side. So, how would you handle this?


I'm terrible at suggestions (I'm usually the one asking for help with my 8 yo) ,but honestly I nearly fell out of my chair laughing at his cuteness. Ok, ok, I know it isn't appropriate for a 6 yo to say those things to his mom...but he is hilarious! VERY verbal isn't he?

I guess that is the answer....work on making him understand that 6 yos may not speak to their parents that way. Why does he think you will get in trouble from your dh? Your dh doesn't undermine your parenting does he? Or does he do anything that may come across that way to a 6 yo? Shrug. Like I said, I don't know. I hope Pam or Joanne will reply.

[Mama Lynx]

I don't think he's on the slow side emotionally. I think this is very age-appropriate behavior. My oldest was quite over it by age six, but my youngest, my current six year old, is right. there.

Yes, it is normal, and yes, you should address it. I usually look him in the eye and tell him, "That is not a kind thing to say, and we do not talk to each other like that." "We do not threaten each other."

I also explain to him that I do not, ever, respond to threats. It's okay for him to tell me he's not happy with me, but he has to do it without threats, and respectfully. Then, if I've still got his attention, I will give him some things to say. Very often by that time I've lost his attention ;-)

For the "I will kill you" statement I'd speak a bit more forcefully, and remind him that we do not say that to people, period.

Over and over, always very calmly, never give in to his threats (of course!) and eventually, my boys get it. They really do. It goes without saying that you should never threaten him either - don't say things you won't follow through with.

[Mama Lynx]

I'm terrible at suggestions (I'm usually the one asking for help with my 8 yo) ,but honestly I nearly fell out of my chair laughing at his cuteness. Ok, ok, I know it isn't appropriate for a 6 yo to say those things to his mom...but he is hilarious! VERY verbal isn't he?


Oh, man.

My 2nd child used to take off his clothes at the drop of a hat. Anywhere. Everywhere. He figured out, also, that I did not like it when he took his clothes off like that.

One day he was REALLY mad at me. He came up to me STEAMING, and DEMANDED that I do "X" "Or I will PULL DOWN MY PANTS!"

:lol::lol::lol:

[Sue G in PA]

I have the same challenges w/ my ds5. He does NOT take correction very gracefully. He's been known to say things much like your ds6. It makes my blood boil. My only suggestion (b/c I'm so not qualified to give advice in the parenting dept.) would be to have your dh have a talk w/ him man to man. Something along the lines of "You will NOT talk to MY wife that way". Coming from you dh it might carry more weight. Around here, ds5 talks to dh that way as well and since you didn't want any "spanking advice", I won't tell you what dh does when ds5 starts mouthing off like that. :D I do believe there are other ways to handle this, but for my ds5...it is almost like he is "asking" for that swat across the bottom...then he calms down. I think you are doing the best thing right now, though...remaining calm and in control when he talks to you like that. Me? I tend to get so angry that I just yell or send the little blessing to his room...indefinitely! You are ahead of the game. We have gone as far as removing the privilege of speaking from a dc when they persist in talking nasty like that. Sort of like if you don't have something nice to say...don't speak at all?

[Scarlett]

Oh, man.

My 2nd child used to take off his clothes at the drop of a hat. Anywhere. Everywhere. He figured out, also, that I did not like it when he took his clothes off like that.

One day he was REALLY mad at me. He came up to me STEAMING, and DEMANDED that I do "X" "Or I will PULL DOWN MY PANTS!"

:lol::lol::lol:

That is so cute! My ds8 has been telling me lately, 'Mom, I'm just tired of this!' or 'Mom, I'm not going to take this anymore!' You know, discipline, being told what to do, not be allowed to order me around. And also kids have to figure out that parents can say things to them that are not appropriate for kids to say to parents.

[3lilreds in NC]

Oh, honey, no flames here! I don't have experience with a 6yo boy, but I've had 2 strong-willed girls go through being 6, and I think it's very normal to have power struggles at that age. His words crack me up - threatening to "smote off your head" is hysterical! (because it's not happening to me, mind you, LOL)

I think you're doing the right things - obviously he doesn't get what he wants because of his threats. I'd be tempted to tell you to ignore it, except that if I were in your shoes, I would have a hard time not trying to get the last word - it would really tick me off, I think. Can you tell I have control issues?:D I can remember my girls trying to tell me how things were going to be when they were disciplined, and I told them things like "Let me know how that works out for you." *I* knew that the consequences would hold, even if they were in denial.

I am sure that one of the parenting gurus will respond, and I will be watching to see what they say because I will be there with the Snort someday, I am sure! I think having your dh talk to him is a great idea. It's important for boys to get clear guidance on how to treat women from their dad, and at least in our house, if dad says it, it carries extra weight, even with the girlies.

:grouphug: I am sure these are things you should write down in a memory book because you will laugh and laugh about them in years to come, but I know it's hard right now.

[Sugarfoot]

:grouphug:, Marisa. I remember my oldest DS being pretty challenging at that age. He could be pretty difficult. We just tried to be consistent, and I did a lot of, "No, that's not something we say. You can say something like..." And then I'd make him say the more appropriate thing---for practice.:D If he said it in a tone I didn't like, we'd try again. If he refused, I'd just say, "That's okay. You can stay here (on the couch, in your room, wherever) until you feel ready to try." When I was in graduate school, (marriage and family counseling) we learned about "ordeal therapy," which basically means that the "cure" is so much of an ordeal that a person would rather just avoid the problem behavior altogether. I thought that was so funny at the time--I had no children!--but I seem to have found a small niche for using it:D
I hope this helps in some small way. If it makes you feel better, my son at 12 is a fantastic kid!:)

[amy g.]

I agree that it would be nice if your husband could help. My son tried that once with me. We don't like to spank either, so I told Dh to talk to him. Dh told him that NOBODY threatens his wife. He gave him a terrifying talk, then let him know that he would be calling home 3 or 4 times a day, and he better hear that his son was being respectful and obedient.

It made a huge difference. When I have disagreements with him now, I say, "I really want to work this out with you so that we don't have to involve your dad."

[Joanne]

It sounds like it's pushing on the edges of normal developmental expectation of 6 year olds.

He sounds like a child who needs/thrives on a lot of firm boundaries and a high level of what I call "social coaching".

You may not be able to communicate why threats of violence/harm/death are not ok; but you can teach him to *not* go there. Start "easy" with a do-over and simple "not appropriate", and supply other words instead.


My site has a page about "code words" which can be a great discipline tool that is effective and actually appealing for 6 year old boys.


As others have shared, it is developmentally expected AND it's unacceptable. ;)

I'd practice, practice, practice with him on how you want him to respond to your requests, commands and correction.

[phathui5]

Today he said, "If you do that (keep his music player because he would not turn it down after being asked politely to turn it down and then arguing that it wasn't possible that I heard it from the other side of the house) then I will kill you after rest time!"


What I would have done if my ds said that after being asked to turn down his radio is take the radio away from him. I probably would have said something along the lines of "If you can't be polite when I ask you to turn down the radio, then you can't have it."

[Snickerdoodle]

This kind of talk doesn't bother me in the least in that it doesn't get my blood boiling at all.

However, I do say each and every time, "You are speaking rudely. Try again."
And I make him keep trying until he can express his anger or frustration using more appropriate language. Sometimes I have to lead by saying, "I'm angry because....."

Then whenever he does, I say something like, "So what I understand is that you are angry because ....." But I do NOT try to fix anything. I remind him that it's OK to be angry, but it's not OK to be rude about it.

[lighthouseacademy]

Why does he think you will get in trouble from your dh? Your dh doesn't undermine your parenting does he? Or does he do anything that may come across that way to a 6 yo?
Dh NEVER undermines me and when ds says something disrespectful to me in the presence of dh, he will say, "You will NOT speak to MY WIFE in that tone of voice" or something to that effect.

I usually look him in the eye and tell him, "That is not a kind thing to say, and we do not talk to each other like that." "We do not threaten each other."
Yes, I usually do that. Or I will say, "When you can speak to me in an appropriate tone of voice (or with appropriate words) I will be happy to listen." I have been working very hard on not getting riled and not getting the last word in (I have had that problem before and I want more peace in my home)

I tend to get so angry that I just yell or send the little blessing to his room...indefinitely! You are ahead of the game. We have gone as far as removing the privilege of speaking from a dc when they persist in talking nasty like that. Sort of like if you don't have
something nice to say...don't speak at all?
We have done all that too... and honestly the banishing seems to make it worse for us. And it would never work to actually remove the privilege of speaking- but I have removed the privilege of eating with the family or being part of the fun.
obviously he doesn't get what he wants because of his threats.On occasion I have reminded him that threats never get him what he wants. He usually cools it for the time being.

[Mom2legomaniacs]

A lot of what has been said already is good. Have your dh talk to him. Talk to him together. Present a united front about what is acceptable and what is not. I remind mine that they are not the parents, they are the children. They are not to speak to others that way, especially their parents. We expect them to speak in a more respectful manner.

I have my younger ds talk to dh by phone if he is having troubles during the day. He relates to him better than I do. My older is a lot like me, the younger is more like his dad. So having a chat with dad can be helpful.

Whatever you do, try to be consistent and united with your dh. Make sure that both of you are on the same page for what to say and how to deal with each situation. Have a lot of good serious talks about why he should not be speaking in that manner. He is testing out being the big guy and growing older, likely. Natural to try out the boundaries. But set those boundaries firmly and let him know he is not to cross them.

I have similar times with mine and the above have helped us in the moments. Good luck and stand firm!

[kellycbr]

DS is 7.5, but this was our experience at the same age, and then it changes, and you have to figure it out all over again. I haven't read all the suggestions on this thread, but I wanted to pass on a suggestion by sister-in-law gave me. She and her husband are both amazing teachers and parents to 3 active children. When I called her in frustration over ds, she passed on this simple solution: Give DS a choice: ex: You may chose a timeout if you continue acting/saying/doing X, or you may chose to play respectfully/speak kindly/pick up your toys, etc. The timeout area was important. Find a chair or space where they stare into the wall. They have to sit still - no fidgeting, no banging the wall, or the timeout starts over again. The time is based on DC age. 6 years= 6 minutes.

Timouts hadn't really worked for us for a variety of reasons, and I was philosphically against them, but wow, this really works, and it works quickly. Oh, also, keep your voice, calm and neutral the entire time. It drives them nuts, and they know you're in charge and that they aren't pushing your buttons.

We let DS know that this was the new plan beforehand, and then when the time came we implemented it. Part of the reason it works for us is that its simple. It worked the first time, and sometimes I've had to do it 2x in a row. And sometimes it seemed like we did it once every day. But not any more. Easy, effective, respectful, calm parent=calm house.

Good lukc! I hope this helps!

[Mama Lynx]

This kind of talk doesn't bother me in the least in that it doesn't get my blood boiling at all.

However, I do say each and every time, "You are speaking rudely. Try again."
And I make him keep trying until he can express his anger or frustration using more appropriate language. Sometimes I have to lead by saying, "I'm angry because....."

Then whenever he does, I say something like, "So what I understand is that you are angry because ....." But I do NOT try to fix anything. I remind him that it's OK to be angry, but it's not OK to be rude about it.

Yes, exactly.
These kids are just trying to learn how to express their thoughts and emotions. It seems to me that when I give their rudeness and violent talk the power to get me angry, it is more likely to be repeated. When I'm calm, I show him that that kind of talk has no effect and gets him nowhere. However, a polite request, a discussion of feelings and grievances done respectfully, *will* get him results.

We do a great deal of "It's ok to be angry, but it is not ok to be rude."

[Cadam]

I don't know what to tell you. I think it is pretty age appropriate. Yes, it should be addressed but I think you are doing fine.

When dd tells me I am mean I just say "Yep!"

I usually get "I don't like you and I never, never want to speak to you again!!" a short time later "will you get me a snack?" and never speaking to me again goes out the window.

The last few days have been "I wish you weren't my mom!" This lovely one might be unique to us because my oldest has another mom and her house is romanticized in dd's mind.

I don't find that reacting to these things in a big way helps. Something as simple as "That is not polite and we do not talk to people that way in our family" may get the message across.

I suggest letting him know how to express anger. What can he do if he is angry? What is acceptable in your house? This has been a challenge for us because dh grew up in a culture that simply didn't express anger. ,

Any idea where he might be getting some of these phrases? I imagine a little Napoleon stomping his foot, and I am sorry but I laughed! It's funny how much power they think they have, and how much they have that they don't realize.

[TaraTheLiberator]

My son also tends to get rather hot-headed, although he has never said he would kill me.

When my son is rude, I tell him what he needs to say and have him practice it.

If my son were popping off with smart-mouthed comments like you described, I would bend down, look him straight in the face, and inform him that *I* am the parent and *he* is the child and that his future freedom will be severely restricted if he chooses to speak to me like that ever again. Then I would send him off to do some chores. The next time he popped off, he would find himself sitting on a chair for the rest of the afternoon. Call it time-out if you will. I call it "You'll sit here until you learn to keep a civil tongue in your head."

Were he to say that he was going to kill me, I would tell him, "You need to go and find something to do by yourself because what you said has made me very angry and I don't want to be around you right now." I would also tell my husband and make sure that my husband stuck up for me. I don't refer problems to Daddy to solve because I want my kids to know that I am perfectly capable of parenting them without Daddy's intervention, but I do let my dh in on what has been going on so that he can address it in his own way. Although with the killing thing, I would strongly suggest to my husband that he threaten my son with severe consequences if said son ever spoke to HIS WIFE, THE WOMAN HE LOVES MORE THAN ANYTHING IN THE WORLD, that way again.

Tara

[Eva]

I was just listening to Cynthia Tobias on an audio from a homeschool conference from a few years ago. You should get one of her books or tapes.
She is SO funny! The title of the one I am listening to is "You can't make me! (but I can be persuaded). She has some fantastic ideas that I believe would really help!

[melissel]

*scribbling furiously*

What a great thread! We're coming up on 6 very quickly over here as well. I love some of these ideas. Thanks for sharing, everyone!

[8FillTheHeart]

It sounds like it's pushing on the edges of normal developmental expectation of 6 year olds.

He sounds like a child who needs/thrives on a lot of firm boundaries and a high level of what I call "social coaching".

You may not be able to communicate why threats of violence/harm/death are not ok; but you can teach him to *not* go there.

THat is my reaction as well. It is not normal for a 6 yo to threaten to kill someone. Without knowing the tone and mannerisms which accompany the statements, it is harder to assess.

I am very sensitive to these issues b/c I do have a child with mental illness, but honestly, cute is not a word I would have used to describe the comments. Threats of violence and harm are always inappropriate and he does need to learn that he cannot "go" there.

[JennifersLost]

I think everyone has good ideas, but I would give one warning. Do what it takes now to nip the problem in the bud. I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but personally, I don't think any of your son's answers are cute or funny at all, and were any of my kids to say something like that to me even at age four....well, let's just say they'd never do it twice.

But, even those who think it is funny now are going to not think it's funny at all in a year, or two or three. Maybe he'll grow out of it, or maybe he'll end up like some of my friends' children, who still talk like that to their parents (and other adults) at 15 or 16. Those kids are not funny at all - they're miserable to be around. Since you're here asking for help I'm sure that won't happen, but that's why people react so strongly to parents not wanting to use time outs, etc - we're all suffering from the results of permissive parenting every time we go out in public.

Another thing to remember as a parent is even though you might be looking to raise your child in a gentle way, without spanking or harsh time outs, life isn't going to treat a kid like that later on. One of two things will happen: either your kid will automatically treat everyone else better than he treats you, instinctively knowing that no one else will take their crud, or someone will "teach" him that that kind of language or talking back doesn't fly. Someone, somewhere, will lose patience and lash out at them, verbally or (heaven forbid) physically. They might lose a girlfriend over their behavior, they might lose a job, or they might just get a black eye.

So, personally, I always figured a swat on the butt and a couple of time outs when my kids were preschoolers would probably save a lot of anguish later on. So far, it's worked. I've got four kids and I can't remember the last time I had to use anything other than a talking to for bad behavior. :D

[Colleen]

I'm sorry you're having to deal with this; parenting can be so emotionally draining, can't it?:grouphug: I can only tell you that based on my experience, I wouldn't describe that kind of behavior, those threatening comments, as normal. It sounds to me like your son is harboring a great deal of anger, and that concerns me. I am honestly not sure, since I haven't walked in your shoes, what to advise you as far as getting to the root of that anger. I would only encourage you to be very specific in guiding him toward right behavior and language. Rather than say, "When you can talk to me with appropriate words...", for example, you might supply those words for him. I definitely do think it has to be addressed, not ignored.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I think you might have the male version of my kid- lol. Seriously, a LOT of kids this age try the attitude thing. Some kids just have easy-going personalities and never go through it, but the strong-willed types (especially the smart ones) can be maddening in this phase, from my experience.

For my dd, if she steps WAY out of line, I will have her write 5 different ways she could have said what she said. Time out doesn't phase my dd. She just goes into her imaginary world, so I have to find creative ways to force her to think about what she's done.

The "killing" thing could be just from sarcasm- "OMG! I just dropped dh's favorite mug! He's going to kill me!" So "killing" could be not the actual art of murder, just another word for extreme consequences. If your son is ever violent toward you, I do suggest getting help right away.

I don't mind if dd questions me, or expressed a difference of opinion. But there's a way to do it that's acceptable, and a way that's not. It takes a long time to teach the acceptable way. Hang in there.

Perhaps your dh could teach him some gentlemanly behavior also. They could have a great time practicing on Mommy. Oh, how I wish I had a son. :tongue_smilie:

ETA: My favorite phrase around here- I need a T-shirt- is, "I don't negotiate with terrorists."

[Tree House Academy]

To me, it sounds like he is hearing this somewhere. TV? When my ADHD child was 4, he told my best friend he was going to kill her with his sword. Now, he is not a bad kid, nor a bully of any sort, but he definitely could say some things that were, honestly, a bit scary. Spankings and time outs didn't work, neither did taking away stuff. One day, I cried. He said something and I just bawled, out of frustration and anger that I had let him get this way and not knowing what to do. He saw that and came to talk to me. Once he saw how much it hurt me, he stopped doing it.

BTW, we also blocked cartoon network and to this day dont' let our kids watch cable TV. There is a lot of crap on there - even on shows like Rugrats and Spongebob that kids don't understand but repeat. For a long time, my oldest would call my youngest a "Stupid baby" which he heard on Rugrats. I told him that was NO O.k. and he stopped after some time of not watching that show.

I must also say that a good friend of mine had a child who acted like yours at age 4 and 5 - he was later diagnosed with OCD. What looked like a "rotten kid" on the outside was really a very scared and confused kid on the inside. Once they diagnosed him and started therapy - more for the parents to learn how to handle his behaviors - it stopped. He is now back to being a very loving and precious child.

[lighthouseacademy]

What I would have done if my ds said that after being asked to turn down his radio is take the radio away from him. I probably would have said something along the lines of "If you can't be polite when I ask you to turn down the radio, then you can't have it."

Yes, that is what I did.

[QuirkyKapers]

I think you might have the male version of my kid- lol. Seriously, a LOT of kids this age try the attitude thing. Some kids just have easy-going personalities and never go through it, but the strong-willed types (especially the smart ones) can be maddening in this phase, from my experience.

For my dd, if she steps WAY out of line, I will have her write 5 different ways she could have said what she said. Time out doesn't phase my dd. She just goes into her imaginary world, so I have to find creative ways to force her to think about what she's done.
ETA: My favorite phrase around here- I need a T-shirt- is, "I don't negotiate with terrorists."

That is great! My son & daughter aren't writing yet but to have them sit and think about this and when they are ready to tell me different ways they could have said things is just fabulous!

[Brenda in FL]

I have not read the other replies yet - so forgive me if I ask or say something that's already been addressed.

I see he is the oldest child - so I am wondering where he is picking up this backtalk. Has he been reading Calvin and Hobbes? Is he at school or at camp, maybe he hears it from neighborhood kids? If you can find the source and limit it or at least address that its inappropriate would be a first step.

That said - his backtalk is very disrespectful and disobedient. I would remind him when you issue a consequence that if he backtalks you will also (add additional consequence). I find at this age - kids need a lot of reminding right before you know that they are likely to misbehave, what the consequences will be! If he hits the baby, "Son, you will be punished for hitting the baby - I'm about totell you what that punishment is, if you say anything other than "yes maam" than you will have no dessert for the rest of the week."

Train him to respond in an appropriate way when he is punished - Give him the words to say and have him repeat them if need be. Maybe its "yes, maam" amybe something else.

Have you read the book "Shepherding your Child's Heart" by Tedd Tripp? I think the premise is what you are looking for - although he does advocate spanking - you can still get much out of the book.

I would also have your dh speak often to him about how precious you are to him (dh) and how he will not tolerate him saying disrespectful things to you and threatening to harm you. He needs to be very firm about this, and I would suggest there be a consequence administered by dh everytime ds threatens his dw.

Now - i am very curious to find out if he's been reading Calvin and Hobbes. My son went thru a period at that age and starting mouthing off like your son - we really had to limit Calvin!!

[lighthouseacademy]

I did talk to my son later in the afternoon, after his rest time when he was calm. I asked him what it meant to kill someone. He really didn't know. When I explained it, he said he would be sad with no more mommy. He has heard of kill and smote off the head from the scriptures. He does not watch TV except for RARE movie- Toy story, Milo and Otis, Beauty and the Beast (ah, that movie says, "kill the beast." hmmm guess that will be in time out- it gets watched about twice a year) Truly, I don't allow screen time- I think 6 hrs in the last 3 months of movie time) and I carefully screen books.

The tone of voice is a tone of utter frustration with not getting his way. It is not a vindictive tone of voice at all.
Another thing to remember as a parent is even though you might be looking to raise your child in a gentle way, without spanking or harsh time outs, life isn't going to treat a kid like that later on. One of two things will happen: either your kid will automatically treat everyone else better than he treats you, instinctively knowing that no one else will take their crud, or someone will "teach" him that that kind of language or talking back doesn't fly. Someone, somewhere, will lose patience and lash out at them, verbally or (heaven forbid) physically. They might lose a girlfriend over their behavior, they might lose a job, or they might just get a black eye.

So, personally, I always figured a swat on the butt and a couple of time outs when my kids were preschoolers would probably save a lot of anguish later on. So far, it's worked. I've got four kids and I can't remember the last time I had to use anything other than a talking to for bad behavior. :D
No, the world is not always gentle. I have given him PLENTY of timeouts and PLENTY of spankings. They don't stop the behavior at all. They result in more anger and more lashing out and rebellion. I was spanked on a daily basis until 12 as a child and they did not do a thing. They made me hate the person giving the spankings. I need to hold on to this child emotionally. He needs to feel that he can come to me and my dh in times of trouble and that he can trust us. By spanking him and timing him out in any of its various forms, we have not given him tools to express his frustration and we have given him anger at us instead of lessons learned. My older daughter also rebels with a spanking or time out. It is great for you that they worked for you, but they are causing disharmony and further anger and problems and unattachment when we truly need attachment. They are also causing rebellion in school. So, nope, not going to continue doing what doesn't work.

[lighthouseacademy]

Now - i am very curious to find out if he's been reading Calvin and Hobbes. My son went thru a period at that age and starting mouthing off like your son - we really had to limit Calvin!!

Nope, not reading Calvin and Hobbes. E is a very very observant child though, so if he hears it ONCE from SOMEWHERE- anywhere, he will try it on me. He rarely gets to play with other kids because we really don't know any and I didn't like the behavior that a few of them created in him. I do talk to him so often about appropriate behavior and respecting his sisters/mother/father etc.

[8FillTheHeart]

I think that you need to possibly re-visit the philosophy for time-out and/or how it is approached. For us, especially our child with behavioral issues, time out is not punishment. Time out is a time to take a deep breath, regain control, and calm down.

Children need a definitive boundary and when they are not controlling their behavior, they need to have a place/space/whatever where they can gain that control over themselves and then come back and talk in a controlled fashion. One way to do this is by simply telling the child that once they have calmed themselves, they are welcome to rejoin whatever/wherever they have been asked to remove their presence from.

[autumndivona]

Every time ds doesn't like something that is said to him he will usually demand something along the lines of "Don't say that mean thing to me."


First... lol I find the "smote" quote and the killing things a little funny, because it brings Stewie of "Family Guy" to mind. And realizing that a 6 year old has no idea what smiting or killing someone means, I feel it is forgivable to an extent.

My son is 5 1/2 (will be 6 in December) and VERY similar in this regard. If I say something about his behavior that he does not like, I will get responses such as "Don't talk to me!" and "No, no, no. You need to shush now." When he speaks like that, I can hear the frustration in his voice.

Like you, I attempted time-outs and they do nothing but cause additional suffering on both ends. I also avoid spanking and find that if I get to the point where I want to swat his bottom or send him to a "time out", that I am the one acting out of frustration.

Lately I am trying to take a new tack with him. I simply say:

"Honey, I am saying this to you becase _________ (what you are doing is not safe and you will get hurt... we need to go somewhere before they close... etc.)."

If he asks me to be quiet, I will give him a few minutes and walk away from him. But I will return and tell him that I feel hurt when he tells me to be quiet or stop talking. He usually apologizes when he realizes that my feelings are hurt, and complies after that.

Our next step is to work on getting him to express his frustration, disappointment, or other feelings better (instead of saying "Stop talking to me!"). And since we've been working on things, I've had far less frustration. (Though when I do get to the point of annoyance, I will usually walk away and cool down before a power struggle gets any further.)

Honestly, though, if he threatened to smite me, I would end up on the floor laughing, rather than trying to model appropriate behavior.

[JennifersLost]

Yikes! Totally different kids there, I guess. If I were you, I suppose I would try some of the other suggestions and just be incredibly consistent. Decide that this week is all about the "talking-back" issue. Have your response ready and each time he does it stop EVERYTHING no matter where you are or what you're doing until the issue is resolved.

I was a single mom when my kids were preschoolers/toddlers and we went through some rough times. Every once in awhile I resorted to the "Grand Gesture". I remember my oldest son (four at the time) used to misbehave every time we went to the store. I finally reached the end of my rope, so I planned ahead and decided that if anything happened this time we went, we would leave the grocery cart in the aisle, walk out and go home.

Sure enough, he acted up and that's what we did. He kept thinking I was bluffing - that I'd stop and turn around. How could I leave all that yummy food behind? If I'd just taken him out to the parking lot for a little talk, it wouldn't have worked. Instead, we got in the car and drove home. He was devastated. He couldn't believe we'd left that food there (I did feel bad about the work I made for the grocery people). He was horrified we were going back to empty cupboards (I played that up a bit and served a very boring dinner that night from said empty cupboards). The next day we tried again and he behaved himself much better.

I'm not sure what the grand gesture is for backtalking unless it happens somewhere you can leave, but it's something to brainstorm.

[Stacy in NJ]

I really strongly agree with JennifersLost and Momof7. What's cute at 6 is intolerable at 8. I understand not wanting to spank, I don't and never have. But, you do need to think of a natural consequence to this type of behavior and institute it immediately. I happen to think that timeouts are a natural consequence, you don't behave appropriately - you don't get to be around the people you love. Who wants to spend time with people who speak disrespectfully and rudely? Nip it in the bud - Now.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

We don't do censorship here. My parents didn't do it either. My dd has probably heard every word in the book from movies, books, music, and TV. She refuses to use bad language. It's a decision she made on her own. I can't even say "darn" without her giving me a look.

We don't do the whole "trying it out" thing either. She did that ONCE as a toddler. Once was all it took. If you don't know what a word means, you don't use it. If you want to know, ask. She reads Calvin and Hobbes, Far Side, heck she's read Gone With the Wind and some Stephen King. She's seen rated R movies, hangs out with all kinds of kids, some of which are hideous monsters (lol). No excuses. When she's rude, she knows she's being rude, and we deal with it on a case to case basis.

Maybe she is lonely today because no kids are outside to play with. Maybe she needs a physical activity. Maybe she needs a high protein snack. Maybe she is just sick of looking at me today. There are all kinds of reasons that would cause me to snap, although I can more frequently stop it at my thoughts instead of expressing it verbally.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

Sometimes kids say this to get a rise out of adults. The best reaction in this case is to take a deep breath and keep calm.

A lot of times kids need coaching as Joanne said on the appropriate way to react to something frustrating. I give my dc the right words and I let them know that now that they know how to respond, I expect them to respond appropriately next time. If they don't, there will be a consequence.

If they respond appropriately the next time, I praise them for it. If they don't, I make sure they get the consequence and then I remind them again how to respond.

I can tell you that this worked well for my dds, but, with my ds, I have to continually remind him! Sometimes he's good at remembering, sometimes he isn't!:001_smile:

[Laura Corin]

My response would be to hug my son, bring him close to me, talk to him about being part of the family, loving each other. Then I would ask him to express himself in a more loving way.

Sometime things are said to get a reaction. A loving reaction reinforces the idea of unconditional love. For us, that tends to end the behaviour. I do also make sure that my boys get a lot of exercise - this seems to help with all kinds of aggression.

Laura

[Joanne]

Another thing to remember as a parent is even though you might be looking to raise your child in a gentle way, without spanking or harsh time outs, life isn't going to treat a kid like that later on. One of two things will happen: either your kid will automatically treat everyone else better than he treats you, instinctively knowing that no one else will take their crud, or someone will "teach" him that that kind of language or talking back doesn't fly. Someone, somewhere, will lose patience and lash out at them, verbally or (heaven forbid) physically. They might lose a girlfriend over their behavior, they might lose a job, or they might just get a black eye.

Please don't confuse non punitive with permissive. It's perfectly possible (I've done it for 13 years) to have high standards of behavior for children, be firm and not use "harsh" time outs or spanking.

Spanking or time outs - either the presence or absence of - does not speak to the quality of parenting at all.

[Amy in Orlando]

I think that you need to possibly re-visit the philosophy for time-out and/or how it is approached. For us, especially our child with behavioral issues, time out is not punishment. Time out is a time to take a deep breath, regain control, and calm down.

Children need a definitive boundary and when they are not controlling their behavior, they need to have a place/space/whatever where they can gain that control over themselves and then come back and talk in a controlled fashion. One way to do this is by simply telling the child that once they have calmed themselves, they are welcome to rejoin whatever/wherever they have been asked to remove their presence from.

This is what I did with my boys as well. It's a pain in the butt to be consistent about it, but a week of consistent time outs (I used to have the boys sit in a hallway near the main area of the house, not their rooms and if they got up or ran away, we'd start over from minute one) will work. Especially, if you explain after, when you've both calmed down WHY he got the time out and ideas for better ways of handling it next time and a hug.

If you're out and about and this is happening, I use the approach Jennifer described. I explain before we get out of the car (face to face - get down on his level) what I expect and what will happen if they didn't listen. It's horrifying to leave a full grocery cart, or a playground or whatever ... but, honestly, if you warn them and follow through you only have to do it once or twice.

Good luck - for me, six was a really trying age.:grouphug:

[Laura Corin]

Please don't confuse non punitive with permissive. It's perfectly possible (I've done it for 13 years) to have high standards of behavior for children, be firm and not use "harsh" time outs or spanking.

Spanking or time outs - either the presence or absence of - does not speak to the quality of parenting at all.

:iagree:

My boys are well behaved - I get lots of compliments - but use neither time outs nor spanking. I've never spanked, and stopped time outs several years ago.

Laura

[kellycbr]

You may want to look at some of Alfie Kohn's books: Unconditional Parenting, Punished by Rewards....

Also, I read somewhere that boys have a testosterone surge around this age. Take heart, his emotional impulses will most likely calm down as he matures.

[lighthouseacademy]

Please understand, everyone who is suggestion revisit timeouts or be more consistent, we have been working the back talk for a while. For a while, I was aggressively applying some sort of consequence- time out, rephrase, etc. for a long time. I appealed for help and a mom of 7 who knows me well advised me to work on not having the last word all the time. While the back talk did not end, it did diminish considerably. As I said before, it doesn't matter how the time out is applied- sit on the step, 1 minute per year, come back when you behave properly, etc it creates rage in this child. I am not a permissive parent at all, I am rather strict. Sometimes it doesn't matter how consistent and how strict someone is, that child may still push the envelope. I have left stores on the rare occasion that there was misbehavior in the store. My kids almost never whine for something in a store when I tell them no and for that matter they rarely ask for treats etc because I don't buy them and they know what to expect. I always get comments about what a great child he is from other adults that know him- and he is- he needs to learn how to communicate appropriately when he is frustrated though. I came to the conclusion after reading most of these posts, that he is struggling with expressing himself in a manner to tell me appropriately that he is frustrated. This does not by any stretch of the imagination mean that anything he has said is acceptable (even the things that I laughed at when he wasn't looking because they were so over the top) Just as I was leaving for karate tonight, he didn't like something that was said. He began to be disrespectful and I told him that he was not to speak to me in that fashion. My dh backed me up like he always does. I then told him that he needed to go write down 5 sentences of more appropriate ways to express how he was feeling. I then left and dh enforced it. He said he struggled for at least half an hour trying to figure out what to say. After the first 2 sentences, more came fairly quickly. He came up with, "I am mad right now, can I go read for a few minutes?" (This would be a self imposed time out to cool off- great idea!) among a few others.

[ma23peas]

Okay, just chiming in here have only read the OP's request for help. To me this is a huge heart issue. He does not respect you at all. He is showing clear signs of loathing towards you and that is not healthy for either one of you.

Will he allow you to read to him? Can you find someone to watch the little ones while you and he go out to a picnic together? I'm really not trying to sound like Pollyanna here but this boy needs a lot of the Glad game. How much time do you spend "correcting" him and how much of your words are spent sharing loving phrases and undemanding time of him? At 6, my son loved for me to sit and draw dinosaurs with him, he'd draw them and I'd color them in in many fantastical designs and colors, he loved that....we'd always have a good 30 minutes to an hour a day where I just sat and read to him, forget the laundry, forget the dishes in the sink....when my babies napped (I had 2 babies 13 months apart when he was almost 3...so he had his share of sharing my time) but I always made a time to really focus on showing him how special he was. This kid does not feel either that you can give him that, or you've been so busy that he feels you really don't care to give him that. Prove him wrong!

It won't take overnight, but if we really as parents sat down and counted all our words to our children in each day, how many would be praises, how many would be corrections, and how many would be exasperations? I read for every negative statement you make to a child you'll need 6 praises to counteract that....negative statements don't always mean "how could you do that?" it could be much simpler than that.

At 6, he may be too young, but take the time to explain why HIS actions are not honoring you... if you're Christians, you have the Bible to back you up...you're not taking the radio away to harm him, you're doing it to help him, show him in the Bible where God commands you to raise your children to love one another and to honor their parents...if you didn't take it away for him being dishonoring, you would have failed God...and your heart is to honor God above all....we began reading "A Child's Story Bible" by Katherine Vos as early as 3 years of age...it was wonderful in sharing stories of why/how we should behave..even at an early age we'd sit and talk about King David and how he did wonderful things for God but he also sinned...what could he have done better? Don't we all do things that aren't honoring to God? Like what? Mommy does this that and this, remember when Grandma did this that this? And see if he will own up to his mistakes. Let him know we all make mistakes but we all try to not please ourselves but to honor God. That takes a lot of pressure off Mommy always having to have her way, it's not Mommy, it's Mommy's heart for God....

HTH!
Tara

[nmoira]

One thing we've found with 6yo DD is that she's emotionally paralyzed to a certain degree over acknowledging wrongdoing on her part -- especially if someone does or could have been hurt, even through a careless action rather than malicious intent. It's almost as if the responsibility of her own actions is more than she can handle. If we can help her get over that hump, then we can talk about the behavior in a meaningful way, otherwise she just shuts herself down emotionally. This involves a certain degree of isolation (from others, not from her parents) or removal of stimulus to give her time to think. It's not a punishment. I find that if I give her space, about half the time she'll resolve her feelings on her own and issue a meaningful apology.

I do call her on rudeness and disrespect, taking care to keep them separate from other issues, and always am careful to say, "That behavior is disrespectful/rude," rather than call her rude. When she's frustrated, I will give her examples of acceptable language. If she has problem controlling herself with respect to computer time or some other trouble issue, the trigger is taken away for a few days. Once she started fussing in a restaurant because she couldn't have a second scoop of ice cream (there were some extenuating circumstances, but still, this is unacceptable behavior because it affects other people at the restaurant). My consequence was that she couldn't have any treats for one month, but that for each day she didn't complain about it (not even a grumble), she could mark off a day at the end of the month. She didn't grumble, and treats thankfully haven't been a problem since.

[Jumping In Puddles]

I'm sorry to the OP, I don't have any good advice but I have found a lot of good advice in this thread. I didn't realize that around this age, kids start acting up again. I thought it was just my son acting like a 2 year old.

My normally sweet ds has recently started telling me things like "when I get out of the bathroom, I expect you to have a glass of milk for me on the table!... ok, I'm back, <angry> I told you to get me my milk, where is it? :confused: He has also decided to start throwing things when he gets punished.

All this seems so out of left field to me but there has been some great advice here and I'm happy to see that it is, at least a little bit, normal for this age.

[TaraTheLiberator]

I told you to get me my milk, where is it?

"In the refrigerator, dear. There's a glass on the counter. Help yourself." *big smile at rude little son*

Tara

[Jumping In Puddles]

"In the refrigerator, dear. There's a glass on the counter. Help yourself." *big smile at rude little son*

Tara

I don't know, do you think that's a little too subtle for a 5yo?

I did give him a glare and said don't speak to me that way again and if you want milk you'll get it yourself or ask nicely next time.

[TaraTheLiberator]

It works on my 5 year old. :thumbup1:

Tara

[Erica in PA]

I agree with Colleen; ime, it's not normal. Though they're far from perfect, and have had their angry moments, none of my three kids have ever threatened to harm me in any way. That level of anger doesn't sound normal to me. I think significant action is needed to correct this-- first, through careful, consistent discipline in the home, and if that doesn't work, perhaps through outside help. I would be very, very concerned if one of my children threatened to kill me.

Erica

[Scarlett]

I agree with Colleen; ime, it's not normal. Though they're far from perfect, and have had their angry moments, none of my three kids have ever threatened to harm me in any way. That level of anger doesn't sound normal to me. I think significant action is needed to correct this-- first, through careful, consistent discipline in the home, and if that doesn't work, perhaps through outside help. I would be very, very concerned if one of my children threatened to kill me.

Erica

Well, sure....if I actually thought he understood what 'kill' means. The OP added that she asked him if he did and he said no. I think it is behavior that needs to be dealt with, but I do not believe he is 'abnormal'.

And I still think some of things he said were funny. I wouldn't tell HIM that, but funny nonetheless.

[Erica in PA]

Well, sure....if I actually thought he understood what 'kill' means. The OP added that she asked him if he did and he said no. I think it is behavior that needs to be dealt with, but I do not believe he is 'abnormal'.

And I still think some of things he said were funny. I wouldn't tell HIM that, but funny nonetheless.

That's really surprising to me that a six year old wouldn't know what the word "kill" means. Not that it's a great thing to know, lol, but I think all my kids knew that word when they were preschoolers, though certainly they weren't permitted to talk about it much.:tongue_smilie: Even if he did not know what that word meant, he clearly knew that it meant something bad. He wanted to do something bad to his mother because she took the music player away. And he expressed wanting to get rid of her, get her out of the house, etc., on other occasions.

Frankly, I think it's truly *shocking* that so many people consider this "age-appropriate" behavior. I strongly disagree with that. I think it's a serious problem that needs serious attention.

Erica

[Colleen]

Even if he did not know what that word [kill] meant, he clearly knew that it meant something bad. He wanted to do something bad to his mother because she took the music player away. And he expressed wanting to get rid of her, get her out of the house, etc., on other occasions.

Right. Of course a young child can't wrap their minds around the concept and finality of death. In that sense, "kill" may not be spoken with full understanding, but the emotion behind the sentiment ~ the desire to do something bad ~ is there, regardless.

Frankly, I think it's truly *shocking* that so many people consider this "age-appropriate" behavior. I strongly disagree with that. I think it's a serious problem that needs serious attention.

Yes, I agree. I've been thinking a good deal about this thread. The behavior described concerns me very much, and I feel worried about this little boy and burdened for the original poster. For the life of me, I can't find anything remotely funny or cute about any of this.

[nmoira]

Right. Of course a young child can't wrap their minds around the concept and finality of death. In that sense, "kill" may not be spoken with full understanding, but the emotion behind the sentiment ~ the desire to do something bad ~ is there, regardless.How do you know he desires to do something bad? Sounds to me like he's feeling powerless and frustrated (normal feelings for 6).

Yes, I agree. I've been thinking a good deal about this thread. The behavior described concerns me very much, and I feel worried about this little boy and burdened for the original poster. For the life of me, I can't find anything remotely funny or cute about any of this.I think that we to give his parent more credit for providing context and understanding what's going on with her son:

He is frustrated and I know that he wants his way and he wants it now. He has not figured out how to appropriately express his frustration and he is still learning about logical and natural consequences both good and bad. He is frustrated that he can't be the dictator. This child is extremely smart with math and reading, but emotionally he seems to be a little on the slow side.I'd be worried if he were violent with others or with himself. Threats in the context of frustration? No. Does it need to be dealt with? Yes, but maturation is a process and IMHO what he needs most of all is love, guidance, and modeling of appropriate behavior.

[Jugglin'5]

Well, sure....if I actually thought he understood what 'kill' means. The OP added that she asked him if he did and he said no. I think it is behavior that needs to be dealt with, but I do not believe he is 'abnormal'.

And I still think some of things he said were funny. I wouldn't tell HIM that, but funny nonetheless.


:iagree:I agree. Some kids have a high sense of drama and a good ear for a phrase that will get attention. That said, I also agree that it has to be nipped in the bud because it won't be funny when they are older. I had two out of my five that would occasionally try a stunt like that. I would have to go to my room so that they wouldn't see me laugh, and then solemnly call them in for a spanking. Spanking did the trick for us, but maybe OP just needs to really think up a consequence that will really make him pay attention. Only OP can really know what his buttons are - food, reading, playing outside? Also, maybe really laying on the attention and affection when you "catch" him speaking respectfully.

[Laura Corin]

Hello Marisa

Was it you who gave me rep, and asked about the way I manage my kids? If so, I highly recommend Hold On To Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld. It mostly focuses on older kids, but the philosophy/management suggestions it gives were a revelation to me, and have formed the basis for how I try (imperfectly) to deal with my sons.

Hobbes is (in my mother's words) 'a handful', but has responded beautifully to non-punitive methods. Calvin is really easy, but I am glad not to be too tempted to use punishments when he occasionally steps out of line.

Best wishes

Laura

[Joanne]

Frankly, I think it's truly *shocking* that so many people consider this "age-appropriate" behavior. I strongly disagree with that. I think it's a serious problem that needs serious attention.

I have to admit over the years, I've cringed whenever I've read that kids say "kill you" or violent phrases. My kids have never done that, it evokes a visceral response in me. It even makes me jump to conclusions about what the child has been exposed to in media or adult example.

However, I've encountered enough people over the years whose children *do* utter such phrases; people whose parenting and approach I respect, admire and trust. In that regard, I'm willing to believe that some of this may be within normal developmental ranges and *not* a symptom of a large problem or the child's processing of adult dysfunction.



Every time ds doesn't like something that is said to him he will usually demand something along the lines of "Don't say that mean thing to me." Or he will threaten me that he is going to have Daddy talk to me about being mean to him. Sometimes if he is really mean he says something like, "If you do that I will smote off your head." or "I will have to think of a good consequence for you because that is not ok!" (none of this is a repeat of something I have said to him except the consequence, we have had to think of consequences once or twice).
Today he said, "If you do that (keep his music player because he would not turn it down after being asked politely to turn it down and then arguing that it wasn't possible that I heard it from the other side of the house) then I will kill you after rest time!"

This first bolded part is very, very normal. Not acceptable, of course, but normal.

The second bolded part seems also normal and notice it is *sometimes* the child threatens smoting. In context, I do not pick up an actual *threat*, but an immature (and, yes, unacceptable) way of expressiong "MOM, I don't like your decision!".

The final bolded part is on one hand disturbing, but on another, I get the humor! I think it's funny he threatens "to kill" after compliance (rest time).

I think the smote and kill words, in this context and with the info we know, are unsophisticated, 6 year old hyperbole.

There *are* circumstances in which I'd be concerned with similar phrasing and language, but my gut tells me this is not one of them.

That said, I'd stop it immediately and redirect verbally.

[Scarlett]

The final bolded part is on one hand disturbing, but on another, I get the humor! I think it's funny he threatens "to kill" after compliance (rest time).

I found myself laughing AGAIN when I read this post of yours. Initially, when I read the OP's first post, that is the part that I found just hysterical---that he was going down for a nap first and THEN---WATCH OUT MOM!

I've been dealing with my own high drama son, age 8, for over an hour now. I have decided to not let him read any more of a popular series of books due to some of the content and he is VERY unhappy. Some of the things he has said in the last hour.

I wish I was dead!

I will never read another book!

I will not eat or read until I can read those books!

Just spank me mom! (I could never figure out this one)

Along with tears and turned out lip, and pleading. When he said he wished he was dead, I asked him calmly if he knows what that means.(I know he knows). Yes, he said, it means I won't exist. I told him that was a very disrespectful way to talk about the precious gift of life God has given him. That gave him pause.

I don't know what to do with him. However, I do know that a)he doesn't really want to die b) he will read again c) he certainly will eat again d) he doesn't really want a spanking.