Does Saxon get better after 8/7? It was horrible last year.

[wyomom]

I posted this on the curriculum board and realized I may also need to post it here since I really need a math program that will work through high school that is going to prepare them adequately for college. I really believed Saxon would do this which is why I have stuck with it from the very beginning and boy once we hit 7/8 and 8/7, my dd had enough. Last year was the worst year we have ever had and she has been homeschooled since 3rd grade. She is now asking to be sent to the public school Jr. high because she doesn't want to fight anymore over schoolwork and it was mostly math because it took soooooo long for her to finish and then she was behind on all her other subjects so she rushed through them not doing a great job which meant she had to redo alot of stuff. No wonder we had tears. Then she had gotten at least half her math wrong and had to correct those problems before moving on which cause MORE frustration. By the end of the year she was convinced she was horrible at math and not learning anything at home because she was having to redo all her work. She went from being a very great student doing all her work independently really well, to cutting corners, making silly mistakes, and just generally not caring at all. She developed a very poor attitude and it broke my heart to see this. It makes me even more sad that she wants to public school next year just to get away from the arguing and she feels she won't get behind. This is huge for her to stay on a schedule. She hates doing school in the summer and she has to complete the whole book to feel like she accomplished something. With saxon 8/7 that was almost impossible for her.

Any ideas on a good alternative that would end the fighting and bring back her confidence? I was really leaning toward Teaching Textbooks. Would this get us through high school and prepare her for college?

Thanks, Julie

[Lori D.]

I have heard from several friends whose children use Saxon at the local private Christian school that the new edition of Saxon 87 is VERY difficult -- more so than the old Saxon 87, and more so than even Saxon Algebra 1/2.

Our own experiences with Saxon was to use (older) editions as a supplement to Singapore Primary and Singapore NEM for our older son who is very math minded. I thought that the higher up we went (we used parts of Saxon 54, 65, 76 and Algebra 1/2), the more abstract (non-concrete) Saxon became, and the more it relied on memorizing formulas and then the wording of the word problems to know which formula to plug into which type of word problem. While my son "got" the older Saxon, he also says he *learned* more from the Singapore. Just my opinion, but I think of the two math programs, Singapore actually taught math "thinking", so students are actually able to figure out/think their way through word problems, rather than the memorization route that Saxon seems to present.


While I do believe it's generally best for consistency for a student to stick with one program, if the program is causing so much stress that an otherwise good homeschooling student is so stressed and hates school -- then it's definitely time to consider a new math program! I've heard great things about Teaching Textbooks. Video Text and Chalkdust also have DVD support for their upper level math programs. We really enjoyed Jacobs
Algebra and Geometry. And I've heard that Foerster's Algebra 1 and 2 are also quite good -- straightforward, gets the job done. So you've got lots of options out there -- no need to feel "stuck" with Saxon if it's not "clicking" with your student!

BEST of luck in finding what works best for your family! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Brenda in MA]

if she finished Math 87, she's probably ready for Algebra 1. The DVD instructor, Dana Mosely, is terrific. My son much preferred CD to Saxon (used Saxon through first half of Advanced Math). As my son got higher in Saxon, I definitely saw him memorizing formulas & approaches rather than thinking things through.

Best wishes finding a better fit,
Brenda

[HollyinNNV]

I'd recommend Chalkdust, too. My dd made a huge turnaround in attitude and ability!
Holly

[wyomom]

It helps to know there is hope at rectifying this. We have just been struggling so hard lately with our schooling, I think it has had us all thinking of throwing in the towel. It doesn't help that we have a busy 19 month old running around interrupting the school day and expecting another baby in Feb. I think with that thought, dd has really been scared I am going to be so overwhelmed trying to teach her, she just wants to quit. She told me the Jr. High will have a paid teacher that can focus on teaching and not trying to be a mom too. :( That made me sad because I feel like I'm failing at this.

I will check these other programs out. Hopefully we can find something that will explain these algebra concepts better and be less abstract. Saxon's explanations are really throwing us off.

Thanks, Julie

[Lynn in Caribbean]

but thought I would share our Saxon experience.

I got it for ds because it is considered to be rigorous and thorough (which it is) and because it is recommended by WTM and others.

Saxon 5/4 went really well.

Saxon 6/5 went OK, but not great.

Saxon 7/6 started out OK, but then ds hit a wall. He started doing just really badly, failing several tests in a row, taking forever to do his work.

One week, there were about 3 lessons in a row on something with fractions (can't remember exactly what now). He was just starting to get the hang of it, then the next day's lesson was on something else (geometric figures maybe?), then the next day's lesson was on probability. I could just see his mind spinning. I finally realized that he just could not switch gears between topics on a daily basis. He needed a program that stuck with fractions for a while, gave him time to get kind of immersed in that topic and master it, THEN start a new chapter on something different. As the math concepts became more advanced in Saxon, it became more and more difficult for him to do the daily switching between topics.

We switched to BJU, which is organized by chapters. When he looked at the table of contents of his BJU math book for the first time and saw separate chapters on fractions, percents, geometry, etc. he said "Wow! I didn't know math was ORGANIZED!" In his mind, "math" was a mish-mash of unrelated bits and pieces, which is how Saxon came across to him.

I still think Saxon is great program, but had to regretfully admit that it did not work for him. The worst of it is, he is still convinced he is "no good" at math. It is, in his mind, a hard subject.

BJU is working for him because of its chapter approach. However, I will not rave about it. I am sorely tempted by Chalkdust, BUT I have definitely learned the pitfalls of switching math programs, so plan to stay the course for consistency's sake.

All the best!

[Jann in TX]

Before my girls were homeschooled I taught/tutored Saxon and it 'worked' for most of my students--very bright boys. I did have to change a few students to another program.

We used Saxon from 1st -8/7. When dd got to 8/7 things started falling apart--very quickly! I had to bite the bullet and admit that the problem was really in the text and how it just did not mesh with the way my dd learned more advanced concepts--it was GREAT for her in the younger grades.

I switched dd mid-year to Lial's Basic College Math and within DAYS dd was feeling success with math. BCM helped her to fill in some gaps with concepts that she just did not fully understand with Saxon. She has continuted with the Lial series and is now in Intermediate Algebra (Algebra 2).

[Mom-to-three-sons]

I am not sure that I feel "qualified" to answer this, and I also know that this is several day sold...but here goes.

We used Saxon from 1st Grade through 7/6 with our first two sons. As we started it a bit late, my oldest, in particular, was "behind" for years. All my sons have incredible minds - so it was just that I felt we had to use every year's book. But, after 7/6, we couldn't go any further. As I looked back years later, I realize that Saxon was never exactly "right" to him. He could not work independently. It did not make sense to him. Just as Lynn said, the topics bounced all over the place, and he never got the full picture or the reasoning in any one lesson. My son always had simple errors on his work, and had no confidence in math after 7/6. He now HATED math, and he had once done multiplication in his head - just because it made sense - at age five! He could tell time at age five with very little help from me..he knew 5s time tables. That is not exceptionally early, but it is considerably ahead of Saxon's schedule.

My next son had no problems with Saxon, did the lessons independently in 20 minutes daily, nomally with zero mistakes.

We switched my eldest from Saxon to Foerster's after 7/6. I don't recommend that drastic step necessarily, but we made it through. My second son did most of Algebra 1/2 before we switched him to Foerster's. Neither son would even consider going back to Saxon's (my thought was
to pick up geometry that way) after working in Foerster's.

Conclusions:
1 - Keep in mind that 8/7 is absolutely unnecessary and was only created for those who needed an extra year before going into Algebra 1/2. A person could probably handle Algebra I without Alg 1/2 or 8/7, but they definitely do not need to do BOTH! just one or the other, as needed.

2 - Saxon was written for the public school classroom, to make sure that nobody got lost. That is why there are "baby steps" each lesson...not trying to knock it. My oldest son does knock it and calls it the original No-child-left-behind math curriculum.

3 - A program that explains concepts fully can work for most people, but the Saxon approach does NOT work for everyone. It confuses certain minds...and my son is not SLOW at all. He tutored in the math lab at the community college. He is a whiz at word problems, but his brain can not handle "baby steps". I say that to encourage you that your daughter may be brilliant, but Saxon could be making her feel ignorant.

Those who have graduated HS on Saxon alone do well in Engineering programs, so I am not knocking it for everyone. We will not ever go back to it at our house, but it works for most of my friends.

[Cathy]

Julie,

I suspect that she's asking to go to public school as a means to get out of math but also for other reasons (are her friends talking about how great it is?), but math will still be there! I understand your pain. We've had times like that but actually math is math and something they do in "fits and starts" with ease one day and confusion another. Lightbulbs do go on!

Puberty plays a big part in all this--either way! Seems with my 3 girls they've had "puberty lags" where they "stall" in their studies, are too emotional, and don't have ethe brain will-power to apply themselves, for a while. It's like teaching jet piloting to a pregnant woman in two easy lessons! :)

I guess I can't answer to give advice about other math programs because we ARE a Saxon family. :)

One worked through Algebra 2 and one taught herself calculus with it! DS is doing Algebra 2 in eighth grade. DD is starting Algebra 1/2 for seventh grade. We LIKE Saxon! And I don't teach it; I'm no math person! But I do require study skills.

#1 Did she do ALL the problems in all the problem sets for all the books so far????

I hear people have problems and often find that they only did the odd-numbered problems, or half of them, or skipped the beginning and ending of the books, or....in some way didn't do it all.

Course, the last 15-20 lessons introduce "next year's" concepts and have a steep learning curve. Realize that traditional schools usually don't get to those chapters, but exposure to them, knowing you'll hit them again, can help reduce tension and alleviate the feeling that full understanding is required. The beginning of books is all review (in case they had summer off). But don't skip them; instead, do 2 lessons each day.

I don't mean that 25-30 problems in a set guarantees mastery, but it sure helps! Sure, some kids CAN do only ten of them and have them mastered and whip through the rest of the books acing each one. Some kids DO need MORE for certain problems that stump them. BUT I think most kids will do well with the given number IF they learn to study.

We do Saxon the way Dr. Robinson describes, to mastery. And some days it does take a long time. Sometimes they get stuck on a concept and have to "table it" for the day, but their brains are still working on it :) Sometimes they take a break and come back, reread the lesson(s) that pertain, and rework the examples or "practice problems" and then they have a better understanding and see what they were doing wrong. I"ve found that so far, they each have been able to figure it out.

Realize Saxon Adv Math can take 1 1/2 years to finish, but it also grants geometry credit!

We had some of the DIVE CDs but didn't use them. The kids learned to study the book and work the examples, checking their own processes. If they got stuck, they usually knew which lesson (about 3-5 back) that they got stuck on and restudy it. Sometimes they've used Table of Contents or index to find the description, definition, or meaning of a term to review it.

For college math, science, and other subjects, this is what they'll have to do to learn the terms, understand the concepts or procedures, and know how to "teach yourself" to learn.

Since there are only 130-140 lessons, they can take the time to work each day's lesson and if they have problems, they can do half lessons and still get done in a timely fashion in the long run.

We treat the tests as review lessons (Dr. R skips them) since each day's work is a "test." If given as a test, understand that they are meant to be administered several days after all their concepts have been taught. For example, the first test, covering lessons 1-5, isn't given until day 8. This way the child has had a chance to work with all the concepts before being tested on them.

Our rule is that they work each lesson correctly before moving on to the next one. This assures that they have a basic understanding for the new concept. Being incremental, Saxon assures that they have practice with it over time--frequency and duration are two important learning tools for math!

Saxon 87, added to the set later, seems to be one of the hardest books. Algebra 1/2 seems to really help them "get it" and the combo is enough to help them through hormones doing it! Then the kids sail in calm seas much more smoothly and steadily through the high school series without "tacking" back and forth that puberty seems to require.

So I'd say do Algebra 1/2 (don't skip it) for mastery. This will give her the skills needed to do the upper level books, and let her do all the problems correctly, and tests as a "review lesson."

Work on study skills and being thoroughly familiar with they layout and content of the book--TC, index, glossary and terms. Some kids read the lesson pretty passively and "think" they know it, but when they DO the examples their hands help teach their brains the nuances of each example and why it does or does not work that way and what some exceptions might be or why the problem is worked that way. This is very important because there are several ways to work algebra and they have to see, recognize, or use more than one way!

Cathy