In search of wisdom! *Math woes* with my 8yo dd

[Handmaiden]

(Posted this on the K-8 board but decided to x-post here)

We are using MUS with all three kids and like it because it's straightforward, multisensory and has the DVD explanation. I'm not looking to change our math curriculum at this point or spend a fortune at an outside source such as Kumon, but I need to do something!

We are in the last part of Beta which is multiple digit subtraction (eg 578-294=?). First of all, she is not solid on her math facts. I can tell that she sometimes guesses. She even struggles to remember her 1's and 2's..."What is 7-1?" "Uhhh.....6?") So we will need to work on those.

What puzzles me--and where she needs help--is that she is having a hard time with basic math concepts, and I mean BASIC. For example, in this problem:

574
-298
-----

She looks at the first column and writes a "4." I ask her why she did that and she says that 8-4=4. I have explained over and over again that the larger number is on top, the smaller number is below, and if it's not, she needs to borrow (or regroup...sorry, I'm from the old school) from the next column.

Sometimes she will borrow (or regroup) without knowing why. For example:

574
-303
-----

She will look at the first column 4-3, borrow from the 7 in the second column and write 14-3. Then she says, "How do I put an 11 in the answer?" I explain that 4 is larger than 3, so she does not need to borrow from the next column.

She does have an auditory processing learning disability but I have not put my finger on how to best help her in math.

Would anyone have wisdom to share?

[Mandamom]

you might have to slow down a little bit but my suggestion is to use drill worksheets and additional drill to master basic math facts.

Here is a post I wrote recently about it:


At the beginning of every day's math lesson have them do some review problems each day to help in retaining past material. These problems should be something that they can do on their own but maybe they still make mistakes on them irregularly. As soon as you see they have mastered that type of problem -- just add in that type of problem maybe every 2 to 4 weeks to make sure they have still retained the material.


So, maybe starting with 10 problems of review (build up to 20 or so) every day. So your dc would have 3 or 4 problems of one kind of problem, 3 or 4 of another and so on that she has learned before but is struggling with now. Then have her do those problems, check them as soon as they are done, have her correct them and then move on to the regularly planned lesson. The next day you would create a new drill sheet using the same types of problems that she missed and maybe one or two on another topic that she knows but struggles with. Keep doing this for about 10-15 minutes per day and your regular lesson and her retention should stay pretty high.


You can begin with just basic math, addition with one digit and subtraction with one digit and start working toward several digits as she masters the material. When you get to fractions and decimals you would do the same thing. If dc gets them right, the next day add in one or two of the next level problem (keep some the same from the day before) and again, slowly increase the difficulty of the problems.

A couple of reminders:

* drill problems should be something from the past and fairly easy to do by himself
* your child should feel successful after completing the drill even if they have to redo one or two problems.
* correct immediately after completing drill and have them re-do those problems
* you can print off sheets from various places from on the 'net but I just found it easier to write them on a piece of looseleaf paper so I could more easily personalize the problems I was creating for ds now 15.

I had similar struggles when I was homeschooling and drills allowed us to move forward and increase retention. You wouldn't believe how many math programs I went through before I realized that part of the problem was the fact that ds hadn't really internalized the math problems to be able to do them all the time -- in fact mastery was missing.

If this is helpful and you need more info just let me know.

[Cadam]

Back up the train. Are you doing it with the blocks? I really liked Steve's suggestion for kids with LD's. With his son and some other kids he will spend one day just doing the problems, with blocks and out loud and allow the child to watch. Don't require anything of the child. Just let them watch you do a page of problems.


There are a lot of steps in multiple digit subtraction. I would go back to just before regrouping and start there again. Once she can teach it back to you make sure to do a few regrouping problems everyday to reinforce the skill. Usually there will be some on the practice sheet but occasionaly not so you may have to add in a few.

When she starts doing them again I would help her walk through it. Cover the first two numbers with your hand and ask "which is bigger?" "will I need to barrow?" "does this make sense?". Even typically developing kids will do this kind of thing, my dd did and math is her best subject so don't let it bother you. They seem to know that sometimes they have to move a number over and just get confused when trying to figure out when that is.


Are you working on getting the LD's diagnosed and treated? That will certainly help a lot too.

[dtsmamtj]

My son did this also, and I had to show/ask him that "if I had 4 can I take 8 away"? To him it HAD to be visual until it sunk in to memory. I had him re-do each one he missed also, not as punnishment but to break the cycle of "well if I can't take it from the top I will subtract from the bottom up instead." The concept of borrowing from more than two digit numbers (especially when a "0" was involved) was one of our bigger hurdles yet. HTH

T

[DianeJM]

Just another thought here, she may have slow processing speed as well ("What is 7-1?" "Uhhh.....6?").
If that is the case, she will need extra time to answer even the simplest questions such as the above.
Maybe this is part of the mix, maybe not, just wanted to bring it up.
You have come to the right place, the women on these boards are experts!
All the best to you,

[Handmaiden]

Thanks, everyone, for these great insights and tips.

We are doing daily drills to cement math facts, and your replies motivate me to keep up with them.

Christina, I like the idea of taking one day to teach the concept. I dont' think the DVD is enough explanation for her. Where do I find out more about Steve's suggestions for kids with LD's? I must have missed it somehow...

Diane, yes, processing speed is very slow for her. I am not sure how to remediate it. I have heard of programs through therapists like FastForward, etc, but it's too darn expensive!

If anyone has a suggestion on increasing processing speed, I'm all ears.

Thanks, again!

[EKS]

My son has APD and dyslexia and he has done exactly what you are describing *forever*. He is 12 and still does it sometimes. He does it with division too. With subtraction, learning about negative numbers helped because that way order doesn't matter. I think it is a sequencing problem but I've never figured out how to specifically deal with it. I correct him when it happens and to help him learn to self correct which is finally happening more and more.

I'm sure others here will have suggestions on how to specifically deal with sequencing problems.

[sandellie4]

This doesn't get to the heart of any of the issues, really, but I wanted to give you a little tip that did help us as we worked through something similar in one of our kids. We had to practice math facts, etc., much more, but in terms of the problems themselves, before every worksheet I had our daughter put a sticker next to the "boss" number for the first 7 or so problems. That told her that she had to start with that number, or that it was the number that would be divided into parts (for division problems). Also, before every assignment, she would do three problems aloud with me, stating something like, "There is an 8 and I'm taking away a 4, which leaves me with four...." Of course, there were lots of other issues to work through, too, but this helped make math less "angst-y" for both of us. Sandy

[Handmaiden]

Hi y'all,

I want to thank all of you for your great suggestions and helpful tips. It gave me a lot of food for thought!

After a lot of thought and prayer I've decided to try out RightStart. I saw it at the homeschool convention this past weekend and it just clicked with me. I was NOT planning on changing curriculum but it looks like God has other ideas. :)

I'm really excited about this answer to prayer.

Thanks, again!

[summer]

make the first number from the blocks. Put it on a large peice of paper with columns. it should be basically with 3 by 3 large boxes. so the 574 is in the first row. Put the blocks..built to be what they are to be..in those boxes. Then in the next row...write in 298. Make the line below that thick. To get the answer...your child will need to physically take 8 from the box above it. But she can't..can she? So...solution! She can take a ten from the tens house and let them move back in (converted back to ones of course) and now you can put an 8 in the 8 box. Do the proper markings to show that she borrowed or carried or whatever you wish to call it...extorted for all I care..LOL (trying to remark on how they keep changing the terminology). Now she will have a 6 in the upper middle box with a 9 below it. Again..she will need too borrow. Have her go through the notions of taking a hundred from the hudreds house and converting it down to 10 tens for the tens house..as we all dress like we must for where we are. Now she can take the9 out of the upper middle box and place it in the middle middle box with the 9. Make sure, as you go, when you complete a column on the right...move the left over blocks from the far right box to the bottom right box and write that number. So on the first right column...that number will be 6 along with 6 units. The box to the left of that..in the tens column....you will now have the number 7..move 7 blocks from the top down there and write the number seven. Of course..complete until done.

Do this several times until she can teach back at you. Act thrilled and then have her show dad when dad gets home. This might take a few days, but once it comes around, she will really really get it. Also..I label the columns ones, tens, hundreds, and so on.

I hope I have explained it well. It is so hard to do it well in a post.

[LisaTheresa]

I love Rightstart. I think it's a wonderful program. I just wanted to throw out there that you might consider getting the Grade 2 workbooks from Rod & Staff and letting her use those as a supplement to Rightstart. It sounds like my son has some similar issues as your daughter and I have actually been using Rod & Staff as his main program and then Righstart as a supplement. Rightstart did not have enough practice for my son and he had trouble with using it as a stand-alone program because it was so conceptual. Doing Rod & Staff has given him enough practice with the mechanics that he is able to deepen his understanding of the concepts with Rightstart.

Lisa

[ccv]

Someone may have already said this but, it sounds like she does not understand 8 - 4 is not the same as 4 - 8. She needs an "ah-ha" moment to see the difference.

Go back to simple math (single digit) and show her how to do simple equations like 8 - 4 with blocks.

Write problem down in column format (just like with multi digit problems).

Show her first you start with 8 blocks. (ie first number is what you START with).

Walk her through problem with Manipulative. NOTE if she has CAPD, she may not understand if you talk and use manipulatives simultaneously, so first you talk (point to 8 and ask how many blocks she needs to start with). Then you allow her to get blocks while neither of you talk.

Then point to minus sign and ask her what that means. Then ask her how many she needs to take away and let her do it.

NEXT redo problem for 4 - 8 and see what she does with manipulatives.

Now show her addition is reversable.

Repeat process with number line.

Finally to work with numbers with borrowing and carrying I find money as a manipulative works best so get some pennies, dimes and dollars (I'd go with silver dollars). It's amazing how a kid who does not understand place value and multi-digit subtraction/addition understands it when you use money. They quickly understand that if they have a dime (one ten) they need to exchange it for 10 pennies in order to subtract 4 pennies.

Carol

[tonygirl]

you just described my dd to a TEE!! I had her doing MUS and in BETA I had to ditch it! She will be 9 and just now has got her addition facts to 20 down. She can add and sub single digits she has no idea how or why to borrow. She doesn't get rounding or place values. She even has trouble counting past 100 on her own. She is a very bright kid so all these problems went unnoticed till now. I am going to go back to Saxon even though it's soooo much I can pick and choose the info and there are alot mor manips then MUS hope it works:confused::)