I need a reality check - letter to Pastor inside (Christian Content)

[Sarah CB]

Our church has been teaching about how so many Christian kids leave the faith after high school. Basically, the teaching has been that the church can only do so much and that parents are the biggest influence in their children's lives. They've spent weeks on this topic and they've really done a fantastic job. However, every time they talk about intentional discipleship or how few hours parents spend talking about God with their kids or whatever I start getting frustrated because no one ever mentions what kind of impact having 6 hours in public school will have on these kids.

So, I wrote a letter to the Pastor. I won't post all of it, just the part I'm worried about. I spent the first three paragaphs telling him how wonderful I think the church is and how at home we all feel there. Then I launched into this:

I wanted to bring up a small point in relation to your comment about how large percentages of young adults do not return to the church after they graduate high school. You mentioned parental involvement as being a big factor and I definitely think that is a big factor. However, I think it can be less of a factor for children who are peer dependent and are more easily influenced by their peers than their parents. Gordon Neufeld`s book, Hold on to Your kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More than Peers talks a lot about what parents can do to ensure that the parental influence is stronger than the peer influence.

However, even with a firm attachment to parents, I think you may have missed a big factor in the spiritual death of our children. Education is discipleship. Luke 6:40 says that a student is not above his teacher but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher. When our children spend 13,000 hours being discipled in secular humanism it`s not surprising that they grow up to be like their teachers and turn away from God. They`ve spent their entire education being told by their parents to trust their teachers and listen and learn from their teachers, but their teachers are telling them about a world without God. Our children are being taught that everything intellectual is separate from God. That has been my biggest stumbling block since becoming a Christian. I became an atheist when I was 10 and everything I was taught in school confirmed my belief system.

When you prayed for our children last Sunday you asked that they would see Jesus, hear Jesus and get to know Jesus through the teaching at Kids` Church. That`s my prayer for every facet of my children`s life. Not just for Sunday school. Colossions 1 16 – 17 says that by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. – I`m not sure how we can teach that to our children when their education about things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible is without God. I`m not sure they will know that God was present in the power of the rulers and authorities in history without their teacher ever talking about how God worked through a ruler or how his sovereignty is clear throughout history. If our children are learning that God is not present in the real world then many will turn away as they grow up and enter into this world they learned about for so many hours in school.

I think that they should learn to see Jesus in history, hear Jesus in science, and get to know Jesus through discussions with their teachers – right now they are learning that the real world does not include Jesus. When Christians send their children out to be discipled in secular humanism we should expect them to pick up many of the values and beliefs of the secular humanist. Our adult children are living their lives the way they`ve been taught to live by their teachers. They sing, Every Step I Take I Take in You in church on Sunday but then they leave Jesus at the door before entering the school building – for the majority of students God will not ever enter into their thinking as they`re being taught social studies or science or English. God will never be mentioned in any essays they will write or in any projects they will spend hours working on. They`re being taught that Jesus is for church and home and that God doesn`t really have anything to do with the real world – with ideas they have to grapple with, concepts they have to master, opinions they need to debate – they`re being taught that God does not exist in the real world and that it`s just one belief system out of many; all of which should be equally respected. If I sent my children to a very good Muslim school it wouldn`t surprise me if they became Muslim. Discipleship is a powerful tool.

I think that Christian education (whether at home or at a Christian school) is the best way to ensure that our children are being trained in the way they should go even during school hours. Heritage Christian School estimates that between 60 to 80% of their graduating students remain passionate Christians even after graduation; through university and beyond. However, I know that not everyone can send their children to Christian school or homeschool. Pastor Derek told me about some teaching on Christian heroes for middle school kids that takes place at the church. I think that`s fantastic. I also wonder if there are other things we can do as a church to help our children to understand the worldviews they`re being presented with and teach them how to think and how to challenge those views. Summit ministries has high quality resources that teach students to understand what a Christian worldview is and to recognize when they`re being presented with another world view. I would love to see our middle school kids (grades 7 to 9) work through Summit`s Lighthouse program. There are also fantastic high school materials. I`d be willing to invest my time into that if there is a need.

http://www.summit.org/curriculum/ms/

Perhaps we could also have Courage for Youth come and do a presentation for parents one night. I saw them present A Poisonous Culture: Inside our Daughters` World at the local Christian School last year and it was very eye opening. I was truly shocked by what has become normal for the majority of teens in our city. Courage for Youth is doing some amazing things to help teens and they may be able to help us start up a Gamma Girls program within our church or something similar.

Or maybe we could spend some time in Sunday school talking about God`s role in the topics that kids will actually be learning about in school. I can`t imagine learning about Ancient Times (grade 7 social studies) without learning about where Abraham fit into it all and the Israelites, etc. Maybe we could show these grade 7 kids that God was powerful and present even in Ancient Egypt and Ancient Greece and that it was all part of his plan. Maybe we could teach our grade 4 kids about Christian stewardship of the environment because in school, in science class, they`re going to be learning about the Aboriginal respect for the environment – the belief that everything has a spirit running through it and that`s why the Aboriginals have such a high respect for the environment. Let`s give them the Christian perspective. Maybe we could use something like Signs and Seasons to teach our grade 3 kids:

The traditional, Biblical basis for timekeeping and navigation. Topics include: the phases of the moon and the passage of the seasons; finding the traditional constellations and identifying the visible planets; how our calendar is based on the sun and the moon, and how the times of Passover and Easter are derived from their cycles.

Because, in school they`ll be learning the special significance of celestial objects to the Aboriginal people. In science class, not social studies.

And our grade 8 kids! They`ll be learning about the Middle Ages without delving into Church history or God`s sovereignty or anything great and good. Maybe we could put the truth back into the Middle Ages and help them to develop a Christian perspective of that time in history.

Maybe some of our kids from grades 4 to 9 would want to work on a project for Historica – a Canadian history fair. They could do a project on how a Christian hero influenced Canada, or the Christian influence to our constitution or the role churches played in the development of Canada or some other topic that helped them see that God`s hand was here all during Canada`s history and even today.

I realize that I`m new to the church and I`m being presumptuous with this email. I`m still not aware of everything that is happening within the church, especially when it comes to the discipleship of our teens. I know the church is already doing a lot – way more than most – in terms of the active discipleship of youth. I am so impressed by the passion and the dedication of the church to our youth – in fact, it`s because of this dedication that I finally decided to send this email. I attended Trinity for 5 years and the Pastor's children grew up in public schools. I wouldn`t have dreamed of sending him this email but he wasn`t challenging parents to discipleship the way that this church has spoken out over the last couple of months. You have identified a serious failing that Christians have when it comes to passing on their living faith to their children. You also identified two contributing factors that can help turn this tide around – an active church that values the next generation and intentional discipleship based parenting. But, you ignored the fact that our children are being actively discipled each day in another worldview separate from God. I think it`s worth addressing.

So...should I hit delete or send?

[Michelle in MO]

But, you ignored the fact that our children are being actively discipled each day in another worldview separate from God. I think it`s worth addressing.

is very good. I would just change the last sentence to something like, "You may have missed the fact that our children are being actively discipled each day . . . " IMO, the pastor may not have seen the value of homeschooling or seen this particular issue.

Otherwise, you made some excellent points!

[WTMindy]

Sarah, your letter is written with great compassion and I think it is well balanced and gracious. You offer some great suggestions of how the church can help families who choose not to homeschool. However, I think a pastor might feel helpless to make a difference in this issue. It is such a personal choice for each family and he would probably alienate a lot of families if he tried encouraging them to homeschool. Keep in mind that your convictions might not be his and he might not see the value in all the things you are talking about.

It is so difficult in a church to find a balance between what is Biblical and what is extra-Biblical (good, but not necessarily directly addressed in the Bible.) I know many families whose kids are in public school who *do* spend the time making sure their kids know the difference between their own beliefs and what they are taught in school. They view public schools as a place to be a light for others and they would be offended if you inferred that the only way that could happen is to homeschool.

If you are new to the church, I might prefer to talk directly to the pastor and ask his opinions rather than a letter. It might seem less confrontational (although I don't think your letter has a confrontational tone).

[titianmom]

I vote go for it.

I agree 1000% with everything you say.

Discipleship for kids is homeschooling, IMHO.

I realize that not every child can be homeschooled for whatever reason, but mom and/or dad had better be HEAVILY involved in their education in some way, and telling their kids why what the school teaches isn't always God's way. I pray for the kids in our church all the time that are PS'd. And their parents don't seem to care to stop the carnage, either, and they claim to be Christian. Sometimes they don't understand just how worldly THEY are, and it is influencing their kids, too.

Absolutely frightening, IMHO. And they wonder why 3 of the teens are either pregnant or have gotten someone pregnant in the last 4 years. Their ans? "I took them to church, what happened?"

Sheesh.

We need to start parenting, IMHO and stop leaving it up to a couple of hrs at the church to do the job.

I'll get off my box, now.

Kim

[titianmom]

How could I have forgotten this one?

They need to know the LORD at an early age, too. Make sure they've given their lives to Him. That's the parent's job, too.

The Holy Spirit is faithful. He can watch over those that belong to Him.

I think the worst mistake a parent can make is leaving it up to the church to help their child know Jesus.

That's mom and dad's job, too. Sorry. Sunday School isn't enough.

IMO, we wouldn't need Sunday School if the parents would teach their own children about the Lord!

Kim

[Nakia]

WOW! That letter is wonderful. I love it. I think it's great that you included ideas that can be implemented for the kids whose parents cannot homeschool or afford Christian school. Send!!

[WTMindy]

How could I have forgotten this one?

They need to know the LORD at an early age, too. Make sure they've given their lives to Him. That's the parent's job, too.


Hmmmmm. I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I think this is the Holy Spirit's job. No parent can ever make their child a Christian no matter how much they train, pray, lead, guide, etc. I am a firm believer in not turning the job of spiritual training over solely to the church, but it is still ultimately between the child and the Lord.

[Sarah CB]

Thanks for the input thus far. I know that homeschooling is not a reality for the majority of people. I also know that in our area Christian school isn't really a reality either. It's about 40 minutes away and then there's the cost factor. So, the reality is that our church is filled with ps'ers and that is not likely to change.

What really frustrated me were these wonderfully challenging words on imparting our values, living our our faith, being Godly examples and interacting with our kids - going so far as to put a number of how few hours parents really spend talking about faith with their kids. But, then the absolute void when it came to where these kids are spending their time every day. My thoughts are that if you can't homeschool or send your kids to Christian school then you need to be aware of what they're being taught and that maybe the church can help in that area. Let's give them a Christian worldview of the topics they're being taught in school, let's arm them with information about worldviews so that when they're presented with false teaching they can confront it or at least be aware of it. I just can't fathom how you can ignore the very real influence of those hours - recognize it, name it, and then do something about it.

[Lolly]

I would hit send. Well done.

[Remudamom]

Send it, send it. A vast majority of the children at our church are homeschooled or attend the school that that is affiliated with our church. Our pastor regularly puts the pressure on the congregation to enroll their kids, although he's good with the homeschooling too. What he doesn't do, that I wish he would, is preach against the PS. I just don't believe Christians should support it. I think the school has scholarships and breaks for anyone who would have financial trouble sending their kids.

I understand that many here are in situations where they have to send theirs to PS, and things are fine. It's just that for me, I'd rather have them at home all day doing nothing than doing anything at PS. I've taught there, and the world will have to end for us before ours go.

[Remudamom]

Hmmmmm. I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I think this is the Holy Spirit's job. No parent can ever make their child a Christian no matter how much they train, pray, lead, guide, etc. I am a firm believer in not turning the job of spiritual training over solely to the church, but it is still ultimately between the child and the Lord.


Absolutely. Our chuch is covenental, so we believe that under normal providence our children will be Christian, but we are not to take it for granted, and are still required to "train them up in the way they should go."

[Remudamom]

Thanks for the input thus far. I know that homeschooling is not a reality for the majority of people. I also know that in our area Christian school isn't really a reality either. It's about 40 minutes away and then there's the cost factor. So, the reality is that our church is filled with ps'ers and that is not likely to change.

What really frustrated me were these wonderfully challenging words on imparting our values, living our our faith, being Godly examples and interacting with our kids - going so far as to put a number of how few hours parents really spend talking about faith with their kids. But, then the absolute void when it came to where these kids are spending their time every day. My thoughts are that if you can't homeschool or send your kids to Christian school then you need to be aware of what they're being taught and that maybe the church can help in that area. Let's give them a Christian worldview of the topics they're being taught in school, let's arm them with information about worldviews so that when they're presented with false teaching they can confront it or at least be aware of it. I just can't fathom how you can ignore the very real influence of those hours - recognize it, name it, and then do something about it.


Yep. Personally, I wouldn't have enough hours in the day to de-program my children from PS. They've got it tough enough having to put up with me!:lol:

[titianmom]

Sarah, your letter is written with great compassion and I think it is well balanced and gracious. You offer some great suggestions of how the church can help families who choose not to homeschool. However, I think a pastor might feel helpless to make a difference in this issue. It is such a personal choice for each family and he would probably alienate a lot of families if he tried encouraging them to homeschool. Keep in mind that your convictions might not be his and he might not see the value in all the things you are talking about.


If you are new to the church, I might prefer to talk directly to the pastor and ask his opinions rather than a letter. It might seem less confrontational (although I don't think your letter has a confrontational tone).


I agree and disagree with this poster. I agree that perhaps it would be better to sit down and have a heart-to-heart with the pastor istead of writing a letter. It is poss that the pastor doesn't know much about homeschooling and he probably wasn't homeschooled and doesn't see the need or advantage to it. It would be enlightening to him, no doubt. ;0)

I'm not sure about the pastor fearing to alienate the parents with the concept of homeschooling. First of all, if a pastor fears alienating anyone, then he isn't preaching the Gospel. :) Possibly offending people is part of the job of a minister of the Gospel. My husband is a pastor.

As far as homeschooling, a pastor doesn't preach "You must homeschool" or "Homeschooling is better than X". A pastor talks about the fact that we all homeschool to a degree--every time you teach a child to walk or use a fork or tie his/her shoes, you're homeschooling ;). It is about not leaving your child's education up to the institutions, and that we all have a responsibility to be active in teaching our children, working with teachers, etc., and helping our kids make wise choices about friends and activities, etc. That is still homeschooling. And if they feel it is what God is telling them to do, then you homeschool the academics, also!

It's all in the presentation. That's how we avoid offending parents. Tell the truth that is encouraging them to do the right thing. If anyone is offended by the Gospel or homeschooling for that matter, it is because the individual isn't where they should be to begin with Spiritually, IMHO.

Kim

[Sarah CB]

Sarah, your letter is written with great compassion and I think it is well balanced and gracious. You offer some great suggestions of how the church can help families who choose not to homeschool. However, I think a pastor might feel helpless to make a difference in this issue. It is such a personal choice for each family and he would probably alienate a lot of families if he tried encouraging them to homeschool. Keep in mind that your convictions might not be his and he might not see the value in all the things you are talking about.

It is so difficult in a church to find a balance between what is Biblical and what is extra-Biblical (good, but not necessarily directly addressed in the Bible.) I know many families whose kids are in public school who *do* spend the time making sure their kids know the difference between their own beliefs and what they are taught in school. They view public schools as a place to be a light for others and they would be offended if you inferred that the only way that could happen is to homeschool.

If you are new to the church, I might prefer to talk directly to the pastor and ask his opinions rather than a letter. It might seem less confrontational (although I don't think your letter has a confrontational tone).


Thanks for your comments. I'm trying to work within the reality that the majority of kids at our church go to public school and that will likely never change. I don't want to condemn those that make that choice but I would like to see our church address the possible influence of these hours and offer some strategies to help equip these kids.

[titianmom]

Hmmmmm. I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I think this is the Holy Spirit's job. No parent can ever make their child a Christian no matter how much they train, pray, lead, guide, etc. I am a firm believer in not turning the job of spiritual training over solely to the church, but it is still ultimately between the child and the Lord.


Naturally it is between them and the Lord and the Holy Spirit is the only one who opens eyes, etc.

But we are all responsible to preach the Gospel and get the message out. What i'm saying is, don't leave preaching the message up to the Church. We parents are able ministers, too.

Does that help?

What is exciting is watching your kids "see" the message, and they start asking questions, then ask to pray with you, and watch the Holy Spirit as He brings the fruit in their lives. God is faithful.

:)

Kim

[titianmom]

Absolutely. Our chuch is covenental, so we believe that under normal providence our children will be Christian, but we are not to take it for granted, and are still required to "train them up in the way they should go."

According to Paul's teaching our children are under the protective Spiritual umbrella of their believing parents. And God is faithful; we don't fear the world, we truth Him and do as He leads us with our children.

Don't disagree with you folks at all ;)

Kim

[WTMindy]

I agree and disagree with this poster. I agree that perhaps it would be better to sit down and have a heart-to-heart with the pastor istead of writing a letter. It is poss that the pastor doesn't know much about homeschooling and he probably wasn't homeschooled and doesn't see the need or advantage to it. It would be enlightening to him, no doubt. ;0)

I'm not sure about the pastor fearing to alienate the parents with the concept of homeschooling. First of all, if a pastor fears alienating anyone, then he isn't preaching the Gospel. :) Possibly offending people is part of the job of a minister of the Gospel. My husband is a pastor.

As far as homeschooling, a pastor doesn't preach "You must homeschool" or "Homeschooling is better than X". A pastor talks about the fact that we all homeschool to a degree--every time you teach a child to walk or use a fork or tie his/her shoes, you're homeschooling ;). It is about not leaving your child's education up to the institutions, and that we all have a responsibility to be active in teaching our children, working with teachers, etc., and helping our kids make wise choices about friends and activities, etc. That is still homeschooling. And if they feel it is what God is telling them to do, then you homeschool the academics, also!

It's all in the presentation. That's how we avoid offending parents. Tell the truth that is encouraging them to do the right thing. If anyone is offended by the Gospel or homeschooling for that matter, it is because the individual isn't where they should be to begin with Spiritually, IMHO.

Kim

And I will also agree and disagree with you. I agree that we all homeschool our kids in some ways and that it should never be just left up to institutions. Most of my Christian friends who send their kids to public schools are very aware of this and work very hard to know what they are learning and help guide them through the errors that they find.

But I strongly disagree with this statement, "First of all, if a pastor fears alienating anyone, then he isn't preaching the Gospel. :)" I think a pastor should always worry about alienating people over issues that are not directly covered in scripture. The Bible doesn't tell people that they should homeschool their kids. It tells us to train our children but it doesn't address how we train them. Should a pastor water down the gospel or not discuss sin because he doesn't want to offend? HEAVENS no! But, should he carefully approach grey areas? I hope so. I'm reading What is So Amazing About Grace by Yancy right now and my heart is just so broken over the lack of grace that people (Christians included) extend to each other in the church at times. I think that is why I reacted strongly to your post. I would hope a pastor would respond with grace to families who choose different paths to the same end goal.

[titianmom]

Thanks for your comments. I'm trying to work within the reality that the majority of kids at our church go to public school and that will likely never change. I don't want to condemn those that make that choice but I would like to see our church address the possible influence of these hours and offer some strategies to help equip these kids.

That's the situation I face, as well. When we first came to the church we were looked upon as kind of weird because we homeschooled. I even had a mild confrontation with an older lady who was a bit afraid because her own daughter had decided to homeschool their 2 grandsons. People actually fear homeschool! :confused:

But over time, they have gotten to know me and my daughter, and how we take education seriously. I think parents want the best for their kids. Many of the parents have to work, though. Many around here are blue collar and can't afford a one income household. Pastors can't either, BTW ;). But they understand our sacrifice, now, and they see the need to get involved with their children's ed. So it has been a positive influence. I've never criticized these parents, I only show them the positive side of homeschooling.

Homeschooling can be a totally new concept to people, but it can be enlightening to folks to see parents directly involved with teaching their kids, and they pick up on it and get involved in more ways educationally with their own, if that makes any sense.

For way too long, parents have left the job up to the brick and mortar institutions (Church and Public School) to do everything that the parents have been led to feel they were incapable of doing themselves. The institutions have unknowingly fostered this in parents. Parenting is tough work, regardless, and too many of us parents would love to turn the job over to some institution. That is what we are basically discussing, here.

We have to undo this as Christian homeschooling parents.

[titianmom]

But I strongly disagree with this statement, "First of all, if a pastor fears alienating anyone, then he isn't preaching the Gospel. :)" I think a pastor should always worry about alienating people over issues that are not directly covered in scripture.


The Gospel is the good news. It is in Scripture. I'm not referring to any gray areas, that's why I said specifically GOSPEL. ;).

We aren't disagreeing, here, LOL. Of course, in personal philosophy topics, you have to be flexible and open to everyone's situation. That's a given and just plain common sense.

I can honestly say that my hubby and I haven't offended or driven anyone away because we choose to homeschool and we're the only ones who have. But they have started taking a greater interest in their own children's ed since we've been there, and that without saying a word about it. Prob because of our position in the church, of course. I would hope, though, that any homeschooling family could do this in any church.

What we come across more than anything is the attitude that "I'm not qualified to teach my children." That's the unwitting result of decades of letting the institutions do the job for us.

Thanks,


Kim

[titianmom]

And I see where you got the impression that I was referring to preaching homeschooling as "right". Sorry. I should have worded it better than I did, LOL. Bad wording defeats me again.


Anyway, I agree with ya. We have a lot of struggling single parents, for ex. I wouldn't dare tell them they're bad parents because they don't homeschool. That would be insane. :)

Kim

[Laurie4b]

Long emails to pastors= long sigh.
Pretty much no one reads long emails.
Pastors get more of their share of them.
Long emails don't persuade. They create a negative impression before the pastor even talks to you, which is what he will do if he's wise (as opposed to email back) and what you will do if you're wise (as opposed to send an email)

Don't be presumptuous. Be humble. Go talk with him for the purpose of finding out more about what the church is doing first instead of "giving an answer before you hear" (Prov 18:13). Be "quick to listen". Ask questions. Digest what you've heard. Then if you still think you have some suggestions, go back a second time to talk and present suggestions.

Also, be aware that the statistics about who stays in the faith and who leaves do not necessarily favor homeschoolers and Christian schoolers. They favor parents who actively disciple and who live out Christian lives in front of their kids. There is a strong argument to be made that kids who are in the public school system may actually strengthen their faith because it is tested while they are at home. If the first big tests come as a young adult---ie in college or just after, they may fail. We know families who have raised strong Christian kids both ways. I've seen incredibly strong Christian kids emerge from Christian families who go all the way through the public school system. I've seen strong homeschooled kids. I've seen homeschooled kids and Christian-schooled kids who lived a false life on the outside for their parents' eyes, and were able to keep up the charade pretty long. I know adults who went to Christian schools who thought Christian schools were hotbeds of hypocrisy. My point is that I think it can work (or not work) whatever your educational choice. I think it's a weak point to say that Christian education is best. I'd skip that one.

Your oldest is 12, right? I want to say this gently, but it is likely that you will to change your mind over time about what you think is the best way to disciple teens. Your kids will probably be the reason for that. ;)
On the other hand, unless it is a very young church, there are probably some wise people in the church whose kids are grown and are passionate followers of Christ who don't think the same way you do. Their experience *may* be what's driving whatever the church is doing now. I'd suggest that you be curious about their points of view. Right now, your letter does imply that you know what's best. I'd pray about having an open attitude, listening, asking questions, working together about concerns.

[Alenee]

is very good. I would just change the last sentence to something like, "You may have missed the fact that our children are being actively discipled each day . . . "

Otherwise, you made some excellent points!

:iagree:That sentence sounded a bit harsh by using that beginning. I like Michelle's change.

What I got out of reading that was an understanding that not everyone will homeschool. You gave some excellent recommendations on how the church can use the time the kids are in church to correct bad information and assist the parents in building up their Christian world view. I would send it. I think it's awesome that you are willing to stand up and talk about this with the pastor.

ETA: IMO, after re-reading the other posts, I think you all may have read more into what she wrote than is there. I truly see some great suggestions and since the pastor is willing to spend so much time on the topic, he very well better be willing to hear some feedback. I read from your letter Sarah that you gave no indication that everyone should homeschool or that all homeschoolers will be saved. You made exellent points though about the lies these kids are hearing and how the church can help in that area. Of course, it's all under God's control, the Holy Spirit to direct. There is no guaratee that any will be saved, however, there was a wealth of information in your e-mail on how to help, as a church, correct the lie of a world view these kids get when they go to a public institution. I half agree with going to the pastor....not sure who he is or how he would react. But I do think no matter what you have some great ideas and the fact that you're willing to help, not just point out flaws is wonderful.

[Debbie in OR]

It is poss that the pastor doesn't know much about homeschooling and he probably wasn't homeschooled and doesn't see the need or advantage to it. It would be enlightening to him, no doubt. ;0)

I agree. I think it's a great letter and I think you've got a wonderful opportunity here to educate. There is so much misinformation out there and I think your letter nails beautifully the advantage hs has in this area of discipling our kids and of not having to undo all the hours of ps-ing.

It's funny...we are living in a parallel universe as our church is having nearly identical teaching and is flushing out these same issues. (As a matter of fact, I had to look closely at your picture to see if maybe you attended our church!)

Anyhow, I think writing a letter is a great way to go with this...it gives him time to pray, assimilate, meditate without having to come up with something on the spot and then the Holy Spirit can do what he does so well.

[Tammyla]

I enjoyed reading this.

Thanks~

[bkpan]

I think that your letter is awesome. Please send it. (I do agree that snail mail would be better!)

Kim

[Sarah CB]

Thanks, Laurie4b. Your post really encapsulated what I'm afraid of. However, it is a fairly young church in terms of child rearing. All of the Pastors have kids who are 12 and younger. They are very passionate about discipleship and parental involvement and I really wouldn't have said anything if they hadn't challenged parents to the degree that they have over the last 8 weeks.

I'm sure that the Pastors realize that 6 hours of discipleship outside of the church or home does have an influence, but that isn't something that was even hinted at when talking about imparting faith and discipling the next generaon. And that's why I offered some ideas on things we could do in the church to help equip our kids. If they're spending that much time in discipleship outside of the church and home then perhaps we could really equip them for that.

We've only been with the church for about six months, but in that time I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe that they're offering anything close to what I'm suggesting. I could, of course, be wrong.

I haven't sent it yet and am still hoping for more comments.

[titianmom]

Long emails to pastors= long sigh.
Pretty much no one reads long emails.
Pastors get more of their share of them.
Long emails don't persuade. They create a negative impression before the pastor even talks to you, which is what he will do if he's wise (as opposed to email back) and what you will do if you're wise (as opposed to send an email)

Also, be aware that the statistics about who stays in the faith and who leaves do not necessarily favor homeschoolers and Christian schoolers. They favor parents who actively disciple and who live out Christian lives in front of their kids. There is a strong argument to be made that kids who are in the public school system may actually strengthen their faith because it is tested while they are at home. If the first big tests come as a young adult---ie in college or just after, they may fail. We know families who have raised strong Christian kids both ways. I've seen incredibly strong Christian kids emerge from Christian families who go all the way through the public school system. I've seen strong homeschooled kids. I've seen homeschooled kids and Christian-schooled kids who lived a false life on the outside for their parents' eyes, and were able to keep up the charade pretty long. I know adults who went to Christian schools who thought Christian schools were hotbeds of hypocrisy. My point is that I think it can work (or not work) whatever your educational choice. I think it's a weak point to say that Christian education is best. I'd skip that one.



I'm enjoying this discussion, by the way. Can you tell? :)

In your first one, I might mention that there are 2 classes of folks in the world. Those who would prefer email and those who prefer one-on-one. I learned this at work long ago. Many prefer one-on-one, so I agree. You have to watch emails and length, etc. It may be better for her to see the pastor at his office.


I'd like to explore your second para, above. It would be interesting to divide the stats to homeschooled vs non-homeschooled to see a better pic of what is working and what isn't, then you'd have to drill down to the more important thing---living out your Christianity in front of the kids. There is no guarantee that homeschooling parents do this any better than PS parents. I agree.

Also, I agree that things go on in Christian schools the same as PS. No guarantee there, either.

Of course, the most important thing for any of us to do, regardless, is believing God. It isn't a list of do's and don't's that influence kids. It is believing God and seeing Him work in our lives as parents. THAT will have a direct influence on our children--whether they stay in the faith or not.

Kim

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Long emails to pastors= long sigh.
Pretty much no one reads long emails.
Pastors get more of their share of them.
Long emails don't persuade. They create a negative impression before the pastor even talks to you, which is what he will do if he's wise (as opposed to email back) and what you will do if you're wise (as opposed to send an email)



Laurie had some wise advice here, IMO. One problem with emails is that they may be read in a tone that the writer didn't intend. There is no way to clarify points or have a discussion on them.

It sounds like you have a real passion for this topic. And like you have cool ideas on how to work your faith into the other topics that the youth in your church are learning. I would suggest that you sit down with the youth pastor/children's minister or members of the Christian education committee and express your desire to help equip the church. But you should do this knowing that the response may well be to put you in charge of any classes or seminars that are held.

[Kathleen in VA]

I liked your letter and I totally understand your concerns. I do NOT think you should send it. I think there are other ways of enlightening your pastor and I fear he MAY take offense and tune you out altogether. It's slightly possible. Not knowing your pastor, I can only guess. Here is my suggestion.

I might email and say:

Dear Pastor,

I absolutely love the topic you have been addressing these past few Sundays. It is so refreshing to hear you discuss the spiritual peril our youth and young adults are in and how parents need to take more responsibility discipling their children instead of expecting the church to do everything. Oh, and a friend sent me this link to an interesting audio message that adds some more to the mix on this subject.

http://fccm.net/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=72

You need to scroll down and click on No. 8 Voddie Baucham called Closing the Generation Gap. It is about how churches are losing about 75% of their young people by the time they finish their freshman year of college.

Enjoy!

Just my 2¢. The speaker in the message is Southern Baptist and he is speaking to a group of Southern Baptist preachers, but I think the message is much more broad. I am not Southern Baptist and I thought it was excellent.

[Laurie4b]

In that case, what I would do is this. Write him a short email saying how much you enjoyed the series and that you have gotten really excited thinking about this topic and would he have some time to meet with you to talk. When you meet, ask a lot of questions first and present your ideas like "What would you think about something like x? " Use the email you've written for you own benefit in preparing for the meeting, but for fun, try rewriting some of your points of persuasion as questions.

Your church is at a disadvantage with no older couples to advise and mentor younger couples. I'm not kidding about the "changing your mind" stuff, LOL! Look for the couples who tell you they really don't know much about parenting and whose kids are passionate Christ-followers. (I say who tell you they don't know much, because what they mean is that they discovered that there are no formulas and that you pray through one kid at a time, one issue at a time.)

Since you have a young church, one thing you might want to talk with your pastor about is the whole subject of how to get mentors. Is there a nearby church you could partner with, for instance? I think it's important to "see the fruit," both in the lives of the parents and the adult kids. I think it's wise to take parenting books, homeschool fair lectures, etc. with a grain of salt because you *can't* see the fruit. You've got to take their word for it. (I happen to know 2 adult kids of a couple who was popular on the "circuit" of parenting instruction at one time. There are probably many couples better suited! :001_huh:)

[Spy Car]

If I sent my children to a very good Muslim school it wouldn`t surprise me if they became Muslim. Discipleship is a powerful tool.


:iagree:

Children exposed to any ideology or faith structure in an unrelenting fashion are liable to take on that world-view as their own. This is observable fact. One does need to be concerned with how much "free-will" is involved with the adoption of said world-view and how much is simply "indoctrination".

Being exposed to the world through only one lens is very harmful to children, in my opinion, and most likely will lead to either thoughtless conformity or rebellion to the belief system being imposed on them by others (parents included).

Far better for a young person to have varied exposures, and to have the opportunity to determine what speaks as "truth" for themselves. Then you end up with "genuine" personal beliefs.

Just a thought.

Bill

[CLHCO]

Thanks for the input thus far. I know that homeschooling is not a reality for the majority of people. I also know that in our area Christian school isn't really a reality either. It's about 40 minutes away and then there's the cost factor. So, the reality is that our church is filled with ps'ers and that is not likely to change.


Your letter is great. I think, regardless of the circumstances, a parent must be made aware of the dangers here. So many people try to dance around this because it'll make a parent feel guilty for having to do public school, or fearful, angry, defensive, or insert dramatic emotion.

If you honestly have to send your child to public school this is all the more reason to be aware of the problems here because your fight will be harder and your diligence will have to be even greater.

[Remudamom]

Hey, whatever happened with your kitty cat?

[Debbie in OR]

Also, be aware that the statistics about who stays in the faith and who leaves do not necessarily favor homeschoolers and Christian schoolers. They favor parents who actively disciple and who live out Christian lives in front of their kids. I've seen strong homeschooled kids. I've seen homeschooled kids and Christian-schooled kids who lived a false life on the outside for their parents' eyes, and were able to keep up the charade pretty long. I know adults who went to Christian schools who thought Christian schools were hotbeds of hypocrisy. My point is that I think it can work (or not work) whatever your educational choice. I think it's a weak point to say that Christian education is best. I'd skip that one.

I somehow missed this my first read-through. I totally agree and was trying to figure out how to summarize those thoughts...you did it beautifullly. Here is an article that totally opened my eyes to this issue. It was humbling and a huge wake-up call to my dh and I and it totally pertains here. (Beware, however...it's long but VERY worth reading.)
http://www.familyministries.com/HS_Crisis.htm

[Georgie]

Children exposed to any ideology or faith structure in an unrelenting fashion are liable to take on that world-view as their own. This is observable fact. One does need to be concerned with how much "free-will" is involved with the adoption of said world-view and how much is simply "indoctrination".

Being exposed to the world through only one lens is very harmful to children, in my opinion, and most likely will lead to either thoughtless conformity or rebellion to the belief system being imposed on them by others (parents included).

Far better for a young person to have varied exposures, and to have the opportunity to determine what speaks as "truth" for themselves. Then you end up with "genuine" personal beliefs.

Just a thought.

Bill

:iagree: I also agree with those who state you should meet with your pastor or youth group leader. Great ideas for your church could come out of such a meeting. Our priest loved meeting with us in person to discuss different view points. He liked to find out what ideas were floating around the church.

[ChemMommy]

program rather than lighthouse program. A search of "summit" and "lighthouse" leads to a karma, buddhism, kind of sight. Might want to link to programs you mention

[angela in ohio]

Your church is at a disadvantage with no older couples to advise and mentor younger couples. I'm not kidding about the "changing your mind" stuff, LOL! Look for the couples who tell you they really don't know much about parenting and whose kids are passionate Christ-followers. (I say who tell you they don't know much, because what they mean is that they discovered that there are no formulas and that you pray through one kid at a time, one issue at a time.)


Our pastor spoke on this very thing Sunday. He talked about the difference in new parents and experienced parents - the parents with young children are sure they know what they are doing, and the parents of older children will readily tell you that they don't. :D

Anyway, just wanted to say that I agree with Laurie's posts. There is so much wisdom there!!

[CLHCO]

Regarding the question as to whether or not homeschooling really makes the difference, I heard it quoted (at the conference I attended recently?) that evangelical children from public schools have about an 80-85% chance of walking away from the faith. In a homeschool, of which there certainly are thousands of examples by now, it's going around 2-4%.

Those numbers, if they are accurate, speak very loudly. The "trial by fire" can be great but not always to those still in need of discipling who are young or not even yet grounded in the faith. It's far more likely they'll be like the little plants that get scorched.

It's a dangerous thing to play with as a Christian whose ultimate goal should be eternity, as though one is just another option over another. I don't look at it as "upping my odds" of having my children stay with the faith as though it was simply a formula to plug in. It's instead going as close to my understanding of exactly what God expects from us parents because there are consequences when you do not in all things.

It's an authority issue. When you give Caesar ultimate authority and confirm this to your child in every way by having them look to Caesar for all their instruction, you can't be surprised when you raise good little Romans.

Those that have taken little kids from schools and tried teaching them at home can probably see this. When I started homeschooling my girls after a Montessori kindergarten I spent the first half of the year hearing about how, "that's not how Ms. ____________ does it". I wasn't their authority. I had to gain it back even at that age.

My point is that you have a far more perilous battle if you put your kids in the public schools so once again, I think it's all the more reason parents need the danger to be spelled out very clearly.

I will see if I can find any statistics to back up those claims above.

OK, edited to say "found it". It's from the NHERI site and the study done on over 7,000 adult homeschoolers. http://www.nheri.org/Home-Educated-and-Now-Adults.html
The other is the more commonly known one done in 2002 by the Southern Baptist Council siting 85% walking away, though it did not divide up public school only even though this does account for the vast majority.

[Holly IN]

I love love love your letter!! This is the letter that needs to be sent to all the churches!! :grouphug:

send it!

Holly

[titianmom]

Regarding the question as to whether or not homeschooling really makes the difference, I heard it quoted (at the conference I attended recently?) that evangelical children from public schools have about an 80-85% chance of walking away from the faith. In a homeschool, of which there certainly are thousands of examples by now, it's going around 2-4%.

Those numbers, if they are accurate, speak very loudly. The "trial by fire" can be great but not always to those still in need of discipling who are young or not even yet grounded in the faith. It's far more likely they'll be like the little plants that get scorched.

It's a dangerous thing to play with as a Christian whose ultimate goal should be eternity, as though one is just another option over another. I don't look at it as "upping my odds" of having my children stay with the faith as though it was simply a formula to plug in. It's instead going as close to my understanding of exactly what God expects from us parents because there are consequences when you do not in all things.

It's an authority issue. When you give Caesar ultimate authority and confirm this to your child in every way by having them look to Caesar for all their instruction, you can't be surprised when you raise good little Romans.

Those that have taken little kids from schools and tried teaching them at home can probably see this. When I started homeschooling my girls after a Montessori kindergarten I spent the first half of the year hearing about how, "that's not how Ms. ____________ does it". I wasn't their authority. I had to gain it back even at that age.

My point is that you have a far more perilous battle if you put your kids in the public schools so once again, I think it's all the more reason parents need the danger to be spelled out very clearly.

I will see if I can find any statistics to back up those claims above.

OK, edited to say "found it". It's from the NHERI site and the study done on over 7,000 adult homeschoolers. http://www.nheri.org/Home-Educated-and-Now-Adults.html
The other is the more commonly known one done in 2002 by the Southern Baptist Council siting 85% walking away, though it did not divide up public school only even though this does account for the vast majority.

That fits in with Scripture.

It is tempting to say, "Hey, let's expose them to all kinds of thinking and let them chose their own course", but this is not the Biblical model we see in Scripture.

Kim

[Laurie4b]

How long is the audio on that link? Do you remember? If it's long, I'll need to find something to do while I listen!

[CLHCO]

Not meaning to overstay my posting welcome on this subject but this site has some things listed at the bottom: http://www.consideringhomeschooling.org/publicschools.html

Zan Tyler, Author of 7 Tools for Cultivating Your Child's Potential, reported that new research reveals 92% of children from Christian homes will reject Jesus:

Zan writes, "I spoke this winter at Sally Clarkson's WholeHearted Mother Conference in Dallas on "Seven Tools for Cultivating Your Child's Potential." As I discussed tool number four (Developing a Christian Worldview), I gave some of these same startling statistics. One mother sought me out after the workshop and informed me that her husband works for Josh McDowell Ministry. She said the statistic they are now using for evangelical children (actually teens and young adults) abandoning the faith is 92 percent. 92 percent! That is catastrophic."

Yes, that's catastrophic and parents need to know this. It's nothing to be trifled with to make anyone feel a bit more OK about their schooling situation because it's not just about parents walking out their faith in front of their children if it's not you they're watching.

[Spy Car]

When you give Caesar ultimate authority and confirm this to your child in every way by having them look to Caesar for all their instruction, you can't be surprised when you raise good little Romans.


But with respect, who is advocating a parent abdicate their role in their children's education? I shudder at the thought. I think we have both the right and the duty to our children to make certain ALL INSTRUCTION does not come from one one source.

But when a parent is as guilty of controlling and narrowing the perspectives their children are exposed to as any Caesar, then you have "totalitarianism in the home".

And I find it somewhat ironic that on a "classical" education forum, where learning Latin and learning Roman history is (for most) a perceived virtue, that there is an over-concern with children becoming good Romans.

What value is a belief system that isn't tested and reasoned?

Bill

[CLHCO]

But with respect, who is advocating a parent abdicate their role in their children's education? I shudder at the thought. I think we have both the right and the duty to our children to make certain ALL INSTRUCTION does not come from one one source.

But when a parent is as guilty of controlling and narrowing the perspectives their children are exposed to as any Caesar, then you have "totalitarianism in the home".

And I find it somewhat ironic that on a "classical" education forum, where learning Latin and learning Roman history is (for most) a perceived virtue, that there is an over-concern with children becoming good Romans.

What value is a belief system that isn't tested and reasoned?

Bill
My point here is not to suggest an automatic abdication of parental roles happens when a child walks into a school system. The fact is, however, for far too many people the school, media, and peers become the default authority here. When views collide, who will they listen to? The one they put up in their heart and mind as their authority whom they trust.

These parents, of which there are many, do "give ultimate authority" to Caesar. The entire point of my post was the fact that you must fight even harder when you plan to share your authority with a secular system, especially when they will spend far more time under that teaching than under your own, or church's, your pastor, God's word,or whatever other sources you choose to diversify them with yourself.

I'm not sure I understand your charge. Are you suggesting our kids need some sort of relative direction from us to see the view point of others as though it is on equal footing or simply that we need see things to test things, preferably against scripture? If that is what you're saying, I agree with you. I've been sitting through the Truth Project with my older daughters and we've done a lot of such exercises, but it's with a direct goal in mind. It's not just the point of diversifying their worldviews, but to instead see the flaws.

God is totalitarian. Early Christians would not give that authority to Caesar in their worship. He didn't get an equal standing in their mind and they died for this belief. However, they respected the authority government is given, which education of children to a secular worldview is not one.

I do not believe I have all the answers so I agree with you that not all teaching should be directly from me, but as a parent I should be leading and guiding the other teachings they receive, not leave it to a pagan system. To be specific, teaching should be filtered through God's word because God is totalitarian and is the only authority with the right to claim this. He doesn't share authority with Caesar on equal footing.

[titianmom]

But with respect, who is advocating a parent abdicate their role in their children's education? I shudder at the thought. I think we have both the right and the duty to our children to make certain ALL INSTRUCTION does not come from one one source.

But when a parent is as guilty of controlling and narrowing the perspectives their children are exposed to as any Caesar, then you have "totalitarianism in the home".

And I find it somewhat ironic that on a "classical" education forum, where learning Latin and learning Roman history is (for most) a perceived virtue, that there is an over-concern with children becoming good Romans.

What value is a belief system that isn't tested and reasoned?

Bill


Related to what CherylCo has pointed out in response to your post, Bill, is a growing statistic of evangelicals who now feel that Jesus isn't the only way to Heaven. It was something like 70%.

Do you feel this way, also?

This could explain why so many of the youth are leaving their faith. If they're growing up in homes of people who profess Christianity, yet feel we should tolerate other beliefs by saying they're just as valid and they're all going to Heaven, too, it is no wonder so many are leaving the faith.

There is no logic in stating you are Christian, but you also believe all roads lead to Heaven. As CherylCo points out very well, God is totalitarian. He makes it very clear in Scripture that His way (Jesus) really is the only way. (Why die for the sins of all mankind if you don't have to?) It isn't up to our interpretation, it is pretty black and white, and has been for a couple of thousand years, now.

I just felt that I should mention the other statistic that's out there.


Kim

[Spy Car]

My point here is not to suggest an automatic abdication of parental roles happens when a child walks into a school system. The fact is, however, for far too many people the school, media, and peers become the default authority here. When views collide, who will they listen to? The one they put up in their heart and mind as their authority whom they trust.

I think we have common ground in decrying parental absence in their children's lives and upbringing. There is much in modern society that I find repugnant and throwing our children to the wolves (sort of speak) is not an acceptable answer.

But I suppose I'd hope my child would grow up learning to think for themselves. This is not to suggest that teachers (of any form) shouldn't be treated with respect, but that their lessons be measured against the child's inner sense of right and wrong, combined with the moral values learned from ones family. I would hope as they grow that they would not look blindly to "default authorities" for all the answers, while at the same time being humble enough to seek out wisdom from sources they trust. But still measuring all things against their best sense of wrong and right.


These parents, of which there are many, do "give ultimate authority" to Caesar. The entire point of my post was the fact that you must fight even harder when you plan to share your authority with a secular system, especially when they will spend far more time under that teaching than under your own, or church's, your pastor, God's word,or whatever other sources you choose to diversify them with yourself.

We are obviously of different minds her. While I'll grant you that secular schools don't bring Jesus into math class, neither do they attempt to indoctrinate children into militant atheism. Personally I do wish the role of religion I history were not such a tender subject, because here, I do feel the public schools are short-changing our kids.

But as for as influencing children's attitudes towards faith there is no doubt in my mind a parent has more influence on a child that the schools do. Way more!

Perhaps children fall away from their faith most often because they see a disconnect between the espoused "values" of the people who would claim to be their "Masters of Discipleship" and the way those "authorities" actually behave. And after years of being force-fed deciding they don't like the taste of the fruit. There is far less chance of that when a child learns the ultimate responsibility for ones moral behavior on oneself. And that their mind is not something to be "trained" but as something to be cultivated.


I'm not sure I understand your charge. Are you suggesting our kids need some sort of relative direction from us to see the view point of others as though it is on equal footing or simply that we need see things to test things, preferably against scripture?

If that is what you're saying, I agree with you. I've been sitting through the Truth Project with my older daughters and we've done a lot of such exercises, but it's with a direct goal in mind. It's not just the point of diversifying their worldviews, but to instead see the flaws.


I guess I'm saying we need to test everything including interpretation of scripture against reasonableness, and an internal sense of right and wrong, and to not vacate our responsibility in making moral choices to a "leader" or authority-figure who's going to tell us what IS.

And yes I do think it is imperative that children understand that humankind has embarked on many paths to God and goodness. I don't believe such knowledge ought be destructive to ones own beliefs. There is a way to teach differences respectfully, without the necessity of saying "all ways are equal."

But to keep your children in the dark and pretend there aren't a multiplicity of cultures and world-views is simply to lock a child in a state of ignorance.

And to focus solely on the "flaws" of other cultures, especially without considering the knowledge, beauty, and wisdom those cultures might possess is a sure-fire way to raise ignorant and hateful bigots.



God is totalitarian. Early Christians would not give that authority to Caesar in their worship. He didn't get an equal standing in their mind and they died for this belief. However, they respected the authority government is given, which education of children to a secular worldview is not one

I do not believe I have all the answers so I agree with you that not all teaching should be directly from me, but as a parent I should be leading and guiding the other teachings they receive, not leave it to a pagan system. To be specific, teaching should be filtered through God's word because God is totalitarian and is the only authority with the right to claim this. He doesn't share authority with Caesar on equal footing.

First, with all due respect to Pagans, the public school system is not pagan.

As to theology, I'm quite surprised to see God described as a "totalitarian". It is even more disconcerting when hearing theology will be taught in a "totalitarian-style".

There is enough literature and example in Christian intellectual history of people of great wisdom and education, who sometimes did struggle with the doubts that arose such education, but never-the-less became some of the most sincere and admired figures in Christendom, for me to believe exclusion of all but one perspective is a positive in the education of a child.

Whew!

Bill

[Sarah CB]

I could do this...

One of the associate pastor's wives is the one who spear-headed this whole family focus series. Funny enough, she's homeschooling one of their (4) kids this fall - for academic reasons.

I don't think I come across well in person, unfortunately. I'd be worried about coming across too strongly. I like Laurie's suggestions about turning my points into questions - I think I could do that. But on the other hand I could totally see myself blurting out something that I would regret later. Now, if I could pause life and have ten minutes to think before opening my big mouth each time I wanted to speak I think I'd come across very well indeed.

I wish I didn't care - I mean, really. I'm doing what I can for my own kids. I have made lots of mistakes that I'm aware of and am probably making even more mistakes that I'm not aware of, but in terms of providing my kids a Christian worldview as I educate them about the world I think I'm doing Ok. Not fantastic (I sure wish I had gone to Bible college!), but with God's help I'm plodding along. I'm not sure why this is bothering me so much but there have been a few Sundays where they're really challenging parents and I just want to stand up and say, "Hello? Has anyone maybe considered that the 6 to 8 hours our kids spend being discipled in the public schools has something to do with this? I mean, it's not everything, but gosh-darn that many hours has got to have some sort of impact!"

But no, they've run the gamut with the influence parents have, and the church has, and other adults (no mention of school teachers) have in children's lives with no mention of any influence from school. It just strikes me as weird that it wouldn't ever be mentioned...at all. And that's why I finally sat down and wrote the letter.

I'm still undecided as to sending it or making any sort of move, but I have really been grateful for all of the comments.

[Sarah CB]

program rather than lighthouse program. A search of "summit" and "lighthouse" leads to a karma, buddhism, kind of sight. Might want to link to programs you mention

Duh. Right. Thanks. I do have the link in there but it probably didn't survive the cut and paste.

[Sarah CB]

I liked your letter and I totally understand your concerns. I do NOT think you should send it. I think there are other ways of enlightening your pastor and I fear he MAY take offense and tune you out altogether. It's slightly possible. Not knowing your pastor, I can only guess. Here is my suggestion.

I might email and say:

Dear Pastor,

I absolutely love the topic you have been addressing these past few Sundays. It is so refreshing to hear you discuss the spiritual peril our youth and young adults are in and how parents need to take more responsibility discipling their children instead of expecting the church to do everything. Oh, and a friend sent me this link to an interesting audio message that adds some more to the mix on this subject.

http://fccm.net/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=72

You need to scroll down and click on No. 8 Voddie Baucham called Closing the Generation Gap. It is about how churches are losing about 75% of their young people by the time they finish their freshman year of college.

Enjoy!

Just my 2¢. The speaker in the message is Southern Baptist and he is speaking to a group of Southern Baptist preachers, but I think the message is much more broad. I am not Southern Baptist and I thought it was excellent.






Thanks for the suggestion. It's funny that you mentioned Voddie Baucham. I just listened to his talk on discipleship this morning. He was very funny but also very clear.

[Julie in CA]

Long emails to pastors= long sigh.
Pretty much no one reads long emails.
Pastors get more of their share of them.
Long emails don't persuade. They create a negative impression before the pastor even talks to you, which is what he will do if he's wise (as opposed to email back) and what you will do if you're wise (as opposed to send an email)

Don't be presumptuous. Be humble. Go talk with him for the purpose of finding out more about what the church is doing first instead of "giving an answer before you hear" (Prov 18:13). Be "quick to listen". Ask questions. Digest what you've heard. Then if you still think you have some suggestions, go back a second time to talk and present suggestions.

Also, be aware that the statistics about who stays in the faith and who leaves do not necessarily favor homeschoolers and Christian schoolers. They favor parents who actively disciple and who live out Christian lives in front of their kids. There is a strong argument to be made that kids who are in the public school system may actually strengthen their faith because it is tested while they are at home. If the first big tests come as a young adult---ie in college or just after, they may fail. We know families who have raised strong Christian kids both ways. I've seen incredibly strong Christian kids emerge from Christian families who go all the way through the public school system. I've seen strong homeschooled kids. I've seen homeschooled kids and Christian-schooled kids who lived a false life on the outside for their parents' eyes, and were able to keep up the charade pretty long. I know adults who went to Christian schools who thought Christian schools were hotbeds of hypocrisy. My point is that I think it can work (or not work) whatever your educational choice. I think it's a weak point to say that Christian education is best. I'd skip that one.

Your oldest is 12, right? I want to say this gently, but it is likely that you will to change your mind over time about what you think is the best way to disciple teens. Your kids will probably be the reason for that. ;)
On the other hand, unless it is a very young church, there are probably some wise people in the church whose kids are grown and are passionate followers of Christ who don't think the same way you do. Their experience *may* be what's driving whatever the church is doing now. I'd suggest that you be curious about their points of view. Right now, your letter does imply that you know what's best. I'd pray about having an open attitude, listening, asking questions, working together about concerns.

I absolutely agree with every point here. I think your letter has great points, but would simply call the pastor and ask if you could meet over coffee to discuss some ideas.

Right from the start, the long letter will beg to be ignored.
You can be *way* more effective with an open discussion of ideas, and then you will also have the opportunity to clarify anything that may have been misread had you just sent it in a letter.

Great ideas, though!

[CLHCO]

But I suppose I'd hope my child would grow up learning to think for themselves. This is not to suggest that teachers (of any form) shouldn't be treated with respect, but that their lessons be measured against the child's inner sense of right and wrong, combined with the moral values learned from ones family. I would hope as they grow that they would not look blindly to "default authorities" for all the answers, while at the same time being humble enough to seek out wisdom from sources they trust. But still measuring all things against their best sense of wrong and right.

I think this sums up a bit of where we will simply differ from the ground up. There is an absolute truth and looking in ones self for that is dangerous territory when you view man as sinful against a Holy Creator. This description leaves God out when, in my worldview, God should be first.

We are obviously of different minds her. While I'll grant you that secular schools don't bring Jesus into math class, neither do they attempt to indoctrinate children into militant atheism. Personally I do wish the role of religion I history were not such a tender subject, because here, I do feel the public schools are short-changing our kids.

No, not militant atheism, simply post modern, pluralistic views. There is a place for learning such things but I do not find them to be TRUTH, which is what they are teaching, or should I say, they are teaching there is no absolute truth. Math doesn't scare me but their take in science, history, and sociology sure does.

But as for as influencing children's attitudes towards faith there is no doubt in my mind a parent has more influence on a child that the schools do. Way more!

When 85% or more children walk away from their parents' faith it's apparently not the case.

Perhaps children fall away from their faith most often because they see a disconnect between the espoused "values" of the people who would claim to be their "Masters of Discipleship" and the way those "authorities" actually behave. And after years of being force-fed deciding they don't like the taste of the fruit.

You state later that giving children a totalitarian view will turn them into bigots so you assume in that stance that they are likely, under certain circumstances, to pick up even wicked or at least unhealthy beliefs of their parents. Here you state children rebel when force-fed beliefs and turn away. Perhaps you just mean they turn away when shown something different but I would suggest the hand that rocks the cradle, or disciples the young minds, will rule the world. In the school system, they are taught by their "authority" there is no one right way and when their parents, when they are not seen as the authority, say something different, you cause that very conflict I earlier said would occur so they follow the one they were told is their teacher in how to "do" life. They jump ship, following either nothing or whatever tickles their ears. We all like to think we're very enlightened these days but I would suggest most are just chasing after some good ol' ear tickling.

And yes I do think it is imperative that children understand that humankind has embarked on many paths to God and goodness.

The original poster was working from a Christian perspective and I answered in kind. The one she is sending her letter to is likely to hold to a traditional Christian view of the authority of scripture, God, the atoning sacrifice of Christ, One Way, etc. You do not appear to hold things in this light so I understand completely where we would differ and expect at this point we will continue to and run in circles.

But to keep your children in the dark and pretend there aren't a multiplicity of cultures and world-views is simply to lock a child in a state of ignorance.

And to focus solely on the "flaws" of other cultures, especially without considering the knowledge, beauty, and wisdom those cultures might possess is a sure-fire way to raise ignorant and hateful bigots.

I think it's simplistic to suggest for a moment that anyone is keeping children in the dark when they present things from a Christian worldview. It is possible to completely look in all the hyped up good and all the hyped up bad of any religion, culture, and worldview, and see both where the creative image of God is seen in any culture, beautiful and ingenious, as well as the flaws. Man in the image of God and Christ's sacrifice for all is an underlying principle and it should never be something that leads to ignorant or hateful bigots. It's a distortion of this truth that does, and in a sinful world, has and will again.

First, with all due respect to Pagans, the public school system is not pagan.

There are different definitions of "pagan". I was not using it in reference to Wicca or others who hold that today but instead one of religion that is simply not Christian.

I fear we've hijacked this thread. There are some areas we will simply disagree. Please understand that I held your opinion only a handful of years ago. I even directed choir at a Unitarian Church. Talk about pluralistic and many paths to whatever our version of God is. I've BTDT.

Children will follow someone is simply my point. When my faith depends on Christ, not many paths, I will impart that to my children. If I impart that but they take no authority in anything I say, they will follow whatever is more pleasing, and I do not believe in an internal goodness that will be their guide but instead the Holy Spirit enlightening God's word in their life.

However, rest assured that at least my children are learning about other views even deeper than so many at the Unitarian Church, which so often cherry-picks the niceties only of a faith system to follow ones own heart, usually not bothering to take them to their full conclusions. I don't fear the ugliness in Christianity either, which there are plenty, because we expose that too. It's Christ I want them to follow, not "Christianity". You'd be surprised how many parents are just like me on this. We're in a culture war. Some do duck and hide, true and sad, but most prepare for the spiritual battle ahead and leave no stone unturned when preparing their children. If you want to assume that's totalitarianism, I will again say that I believe God to be a totalitarian. No God before Me. I don't think he meant "whatever view of me you want to hold".

Alrighty then. I'm officially avoiding responsibilities and I will respectfully bow out of this conversation, if I may. I fear this is taking on a life of it's own away from the OP.

Thanks for the brain workout. I'll probably think of a few zillion things I should have said differently or restated but I'm going to avoid a run on re-clarification, which will never get the laundry done.

[Twinmom]

I agree with most points in your letter and I applaud your attempts to help your church in this area! It's something that needs to be discussed in the church more and more, IMO. I second (or third!) the posters who suggest Voddie Baucham as a resource in this area. I particularly like "A Family Driven Faith." Voddie spoke at my former church on this very subject, which is where I picked up the book and where I began to consider home schooling! World view was the focus of his talk, and believe me, it changed the lives of many in our church.

IMO, you'd be better served by making an appointment to see the pastor and discussing your letter in person. If you don't think you can articulate your thoughts well enough, bring the letter along, ask him to read it and then stay right there to discuss it with him. That will eliminate the chances of any misunderstandings...you'll be there to fix them! I do agree that pastors should do all they can to help parents recognize the world's influence on their children, both in and out of the public schools. Some of the best and most influential sermons at my church involved just that.

If it were me making the appt., I'd be going in asking how I could help make the members of the church more aware of this issue. I'd not be afraid to suggest that he do all he can as a pastor to educate parents on how world view influences their kiddos both in and out of the public schools. I'd be flat out asking how to encourage both home schooling for those who can do it, and how I could help close the gap for those who don't. And, yes, I'd be asking for more volunteer work by doing so, but hey, if it means enough to you, by all means make yourself available! Pastors need all the help they can get! I guess what I'm suggesting is that you just make yourself available to help where needed! Lead a Bible study, a small group, volunteer to arrange special speakers, talks about home schooling, etc....whatever your church needs.

Way to go for trying to bring this issue to the forefront in a tactful manner!

[Carol in Cal.]

Other than that, I think you should send it, as is.

I disagree about long emails.

I think that most pastors that I know are good readers. After all, they have been through 4 years or more of college, and 3-4 years of seminary training.

And, you are addressing, with great love, a subject that this pastor feels strongly about. You have reacted with understanding and enthusiasm to his sermons and teaching. That kind of listener is already 'right' with a pastor to a great extent, and if he is truly a man of servant leadership, he will be glad to consider how to take the teachings he has already developed to the next level.

Having said that, he has probably 'pushed' some members of your congregation pretty far with what he has done already. He may need to take a breather before the next big move. Bottom line: Don't expect him to act on your suggestions anytime soon. It might be a year or two or more before this large ship turns that far into a new course. And that is OK if it supports retention of the parents in the church.

BTW, Christian education comes in many flavors. Here in my area we have Christian schools that are Baptist, non-denominational, Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, and Episcopalian. A good Christian school that is not of your particular exact denomination should not necessarily be ruled out. It might still be a great improvement over the public schools. Or it might not. It is worth checking. So the 40 minute drive might really not be quite right in your case (or maybe it is.) I'm not suggesting that you stop homeschooling, by any means; but rather that families be encouraged to consider solid Christian schools of other denominations if necessary.

[Michelle in TX]

Sarah, I love this letter. I thought you did a great job of offering suggestions to counter the influence of ps for those who cannot send kids to private or hs. I thought your tone was very gracious as well. Send it!

[HSMom2One]

Sarah, your letter should be shared with your pastor. I've learned from others that anytime we feel passionate about something it's because God has put it in our hearts. You have such excellent points that need to be made rather than pushed aside.

As the former office manager in a church I agree somewhat with the idea about sending long e-mails. Busy pastors don't always want to take the time to read long documents. But on the other hand, coming from someone in the congregation that is new and who doesn't speak up often will be in your favor. Therefore, imho, I think you should send it.

I'd suggest that you say at the beginning that you know it is a long letter, but that the topic is so valuable it will be worth the time to read. Maybe also suggest that after he reads it, thinks it over and prays, you'd love to follow up with a personal visit. Maybe even invite the pastor over to your house for dinner to talk about it with you and your husband together.

Bless you for reaching beyond yourself and thinking about the needs of children in the church. Your letter really inspires me to want to do the same.

Lucinda

[newlifemom]

Sarah,

How are you coming along? Have you/are you sending the e-mail? I have been following this thread and am curious how it plays out. Will be praying for you.

[Sarah CB]

Sarah,

How are you coming along? Have you/are you sending the e-mail? I have been following this thread and am curious how it plays out. Will be praying for you.

I'm such a big chicken. I haven't sent it and I think I'm leaning towards just talking with the pastor. He sent dh and I a card a few weeks back welcoming us to the church and asking us if there was a good time to have a cup of tea with him. Unfortunately, dh is in and out of town so much right now that nothing has worked out. But, our church does BBQs at a local park every Thursday night over the summer so there may be a chance for an informal conversation then. Or I wait until dh gets back and have him over for tea. Or I just send the email already. Or I could invite the pastor's wife who was responsible for the whole family-focus thing over and chat with her.

I don't know...

[wide eyes & laughter]

...easiest to see in a person's eyes, hear in their voice, but could easily be missed in a letter especially an email. To me, since you feel strongly about this and want to contribute ideas but are afraid of coming across too passionately in a face-to-face mtg.... Wait. Pray until peace reigns instead of passion. The chances of blurting out anything regretful decrease greatly.

I've never, never, never regretted waiting, watching, praying for a long time before opening my mouth. Otoh, I have many regrets in this area and have been slow to learn; let me be the first to admit.

I've enjoyed rdg this thread - lots of food for thought here. I found myself agreeing with something in every post, and challenged.