Math-U-See Gimmicky?

[MtnTeaching]

Math-U-See users and lovers- please do not mistake my question as a criticism. I have a genuine desire to know your thoughts after using this curriculum for your child. For some reason, after viewing this product and demo at our convention, online demo and many, many reviews, I have this nagging feeling that the amount of stress placed on the manipulative work is a bit of an over kill.

My background - My 9yo daughter was homeschooled last year (3rd grade) after coming out of ps and not having even a basic understanding of how to regroup an addition problem. We went back to 2nd grade level math and worked hard this year to bring her up to a 4th grade level math. Unfortunately, I taught her the same way I was taught. She knows the steps, but not the why.

I, like so many of you, want my child to understand math and enjoy the wonder of it, not just follow "rules" with no idea as to why and how it really works. I was hoping Math-U-See would help her with this since she needs more than just language to really grasp a concept. She really needs to "see" it work.

Specifically, my questions are:
1. Do the children become dependent on the manipulatives to do the problems? The feeling I got from the demo was that the stress was on the manipulative, not necessarily on the ability to look at a problem and quickly "see" the big picture. I would like to be able to use manipulatives to introduce concepts and for problems in comprehension, but I am not sold on the idea that a manipulative is needed for every problem.

2. Do any of you feel there is so much concentration on one concept that the other concepts are forgotten? An entire year on addition and subtraction of single-digits seems excessive to me. Did any of your children get bored with the pace?

3. Did any of you supplement this program, or use this program as a supplement for other ones? What about all the other wonderful math concepts that standardized testing requires knowledge of (just a little sarcasm there)? Are word problems and real-life math covered?

4. Finally, does anyone know of a good book for parents that would teach me how to teach my child mental math in a condensed, straight-forward fashion. I'm looking for a book (or website) that teaches the "tricks" and tips that make math fun and interesting. I have game books like "Family Math" and have read sites such as the living math website, but I was just wondering if anyone has seen a good straight-forward source for mental math (not asking for much, am I)?

Thank you for your input and help. After two months of math curriculum review and agonizing over which one to use, I thought it best to go straight to the unbelievable wealth of knowledge and experience on this forum.

[VaKim]

We are only on Gamma, so take this for what it may or may not be worth. :)

My dd never used the manipulatives for anything but building blocks, so no, I don't think they will necessarily become dependent on them at all.

We don't have to test, so I was never concerned with the s&s.

We did go faster and even skip some lessons through the first couple books, so that is an option if it is moving too slowly for you, just like with any curriculum.

We really like MUS because it not only teaches them to plug numbers into a formula and memorize, but teaches the "why" behind things. I will be finishing up Gamma and then Delta, and then will be moving to Life of Fred, which I like for the same reasons and is a lot cheaper when we get to that point.

[Amy loves Bud]

Specifically, my questions are:
1. Do the children become dependent on the manipulatives to do the problems? The feeling I got from the demo was that the stress was on the manipulative, not necessarily on the ability to look at a problem and quickly "see" the big picture. I would like to be able to use manipulatives to introduce concepts and for problems in comprehension, but I am not sold on the idea that a manipulative is needed for every problem.

Background: I have a 9 year old (10 in August) who has used MUS since the beginning and is now about 1/3 of the way through Epsilon. I have 7 year old (8 in August) who has also used it since the beginning and is about 1/2 way through Gamma.

As for manipulatives, my kids have both naturally eliminated the manipulative step as they've grasped the problem, sometimes sooner, sometimes later, depending on the difficulty grasping it. I've never had to encourage them to drop the manipulatives. So no, I don't think they are dependent upon them, and really MUS doesn't encourage their use for every problem.

2. Do any of you feel there is so much concentration on one concept that the other concepts are forgotten? An entire year on addition and subtraction of single-digits seems excessive to me. Did any of your children get bored with the pace?

There is built in review. EAch chapter has three sheets focusing on the new material then three sheet swith new and review material. Both of mine have remembered just fine.

As for a year on single digits, I think the value of it is taking the time to cement understanding of place value. If you make sure they know their add/sub facts and completely "get" place value, then regrouping is a piece of cake.

And remember, you move at a mastery pace. If the child knows the material cold, then move on. They don't have to do every problem for every chapter!

3. Did any of you supplement this program, or use this program as a supplement for other ones? What about all the other wonderful math concepts that standardized testing requires knowledge of (just a little sarcasm there)? Are word problems and real-life math covered?

We throw in Singapore math Challenging Word Problems here and there. But nothing systematic. Those other concepts? You can teach them in about 5 minutes if you need to take a test. Otherwise they are (a) not important or (b) normal kids learn them in the course of real life, which brings me to...
Real life math. Homeschool kids learn real life math in real life! They make grocery budgets, plot out a garden, figure out how many gallons of paint to buy to paint the living room. That's why it's called real life math, LOL!

I don't know about the mental math resource. We do that in real life, too. Last week Luke had a "restaurant" here in the neighborhood and he had to figure out how to price his food to make a profit. That's how we learn a lot of stuff around here!

Good luck with your decision-making! I know it can be a ton of info to process. You sound on top of things, so I'm sure you won't go wrong with whatever you choose!

[CleoQc]

DD (now almost 8) cried every time I would get the Singapore math books out. She cried with every math book I tried. But on MUS she thrived! She finished Beta and is about to start Gamma. Her brother did Pre-algebra so I'm familiar with some of MUS advanced material too.

She is not dependent on the manipulatives and dropped them rather quickly although she will go back to them when a new concept is learned. In other words, she really does need them to understand a concept, but doesn't grow dependent on them.

The feeling I got from the demo was that the stress was on the manipulative, not necessarily on the ability to look at a problem and quickly "see" the big picture.

That's actually a funny quote, because MUS does make the child look at a problem and quickly see the big picture, by using the blocks. The blocks are just a way of illustrating a problem, in a somewhat similar way to the diagrams in Singapore. (not exactly the same but there are similarities). My DD can solve problems she wasn't able to do before, because of the blocks!

There are word problems, and there are real-life problems (although they are the same!)

[hillfarm]

I think a good bit of it depends on your child's learning style. Dd was learning to hate math with all the repetition in her ABeka material. We switched to MUS and while math is not her favorite subject, she doesn't really mind doing it now. She needed that freedom to skip pages of material she already knew how to do.

I encourage her to use the manipulatives to illustrate to me that she knows the concept, then she is free to use them or not. I do think that concrete, hands-on manipulation adds one more layer of information for her to fall back on when approaching new material. I think she "sees" math more completely now.

We have done Gamma and Delta and will start Epsilon in the fall. In general, I like MUS and we are seeing good results with it. It might not work as well for kids who need lots of repetition or who need colorful workbooks. Different things work for different kids at different times.

[MtnTeaching]

I do actually still believe this would be a good program for my dd, but wanted to put all of my concerns out there for your review.

I think what really scared me was the demo/class I got at our recent convention. The gentleman was very smug and placed a LOT of emphasis on the manipulatives. Also, the demo on the website felt like it did the same thing.

I appreciate your comments and know that if I sit back, look at my daughter and reevaluate why we are homeschooling - I'll chill out and do what's best for her and the way she learns. (She doesn't do will with pressure as evidenced by the stomachaches her ps teacher gave her).

Oh, the pressure of finding the "right" curriculum for your child!

[Lori D.]

Our background: we discovered MUS for our very mildly dyslexic, visual-spatial learner son in 5th grade after struggling thru a number of math programs for the previous 4 years. We first used the Old MUS "Intermediate" program (grades 4,5,6 concepts), and then have since done the "new" levels of Delta (skimming review), Epsilon, Zeta, and Pre-Algebra. He will start 9th grade doing the Algebra. We also use Singapore Primary and the Keys To... series as a supplement, and plan to use Jacobs Algebra along with MUS Algebra next year.

Personally, I think it was the combination of several things that made MUS be the program that finally clicked for him:

1. His brain finally matured into being able to process math (a more abstract subject in general) -- he was finally "brain ready" to "get" math.

2. MUS is very visual and more of a "big picture" in its presentation (video lessons with manipulatives *showing* the "why" behind the math concept) -- these were very import learning style/processing points for my VSL son who intakes info and processes it very concretely and "big picture" first, then the parts.

That said, below are my answers to your questions, for what it's worth! : ) Warmly, Lori D.



1. Do the children become dependent on the manipulatives to do the problems? The feeling I got from the demo was that the stress was on the manipulative, not necessarily on the ability to look at a problem and quickly "see" the big picture. I would like to be able to use manipulatives to introduce concepts and for problems in comprehension, but I am not sold on the idea that a manipulative is needed for every problem.

My understanding of MUS's philosophy is NOT to make the child dependent on using manipulatives, but really making sure they understand the "why" behind the concept (the "big picture") -- and esp. for many younger children, building the concept can really help them "get" those abstract math concepts.

Our experience: I never use ANY program the way 100% the way it's designed (lol). My son benefited in the first year of MUS (5th grade) in using the manipulatives to recreate the concept to really "get" it from the MUS point of view, but he's really not "into" manipulatives. So as long as he understands the concepts from watching the videos and can really do the concepts on the worksheets, we don't really "build" the concepts and tend to skip over that part of the worksheet.

After about the first 6 weeks of 5th grade with MUS "Intermediate", we stopped using the manipulatives with the occasional exception to reiterate what he showed on the video. I might be less willing to do that with a younger child -- it would depend on the child. (My gut instinct would be to use a wide variety of math programs for grades 1-4, to give the child lots of ways of seeing the math concepts; I don't know if I would have gone with MUS for the very young grades... But that's probably because I haven't seen/used those young levels of MUS. :001_smile:)



2. Do any of you feel there is so much concentration on one concept that the other concepts are forgotten? An entire year on addition and subtraction of single-digits seems excessive to me. Did any of your children get bored with the pace?

At least in the levels of MUS we've used, there is quite a bit of review built in, which continually brings up past concepts to work on in addition to learning new concepts. Looking at the table of contents can also help you see that, while a level may sound like it's "all about addition", many other topics are being covered as well. (For example, Alpha covers: Place Value, Counting to 100 Concept of Addition and Symbols, Addition Facts, Solving for an Unknown, Concept of Subtraction and Symbols, Subtraction Facts, Skip Counting, Telling Time, Shapes.)

And you could consider using the MUS "Classic" Foundation program which covers grades 1,2,3 math topics if you wanted more variety. Also, if math is a problem area for a child, it's good (at least in those early years) to try to match the child up with the program approach ("mastery" or "spiral") that would best fit the child.

My son never got bored -- but I think this was for several reasons:
- If he "got" the concept, we moved on; of all the "new" MUS levels we've used, we always finish the 30 lessons in about 26 weeks
- We always use a supplements, so we're looking at math from various angles, and often getting new topics introduced, or drilling topics we've "forgotten".
- My son needs more of a "mastery" type program (focus on a single topic at a time), with some review of past topics. He could not "get" math at all when we tried Saxon's "spiral" approach (continual looping back around to various math topics throughout the year and then through the grades to keep adding a bit more knowledge to the topics). For my son, each Saxon math topic was broken into too many incremental steps, and then scattered among lessons too far apart for him to "connect-the-dots" from lesson to lesson.

I do need to add that our older "math whiz" son needed a more "meaty" math program than MUS.



3. Did any of you supplement this program, or use this program as a supplement for other ones? What about all the other wonderful math concepts that standardized testing requires knowledge of (just a little sarcasm there)? Are word problems and real-life math covered?

We always supplement. I firmly believe all children greatly benefit from seeing math from more than one point of view. Our older son is a whiz at math and we still supplemented for him as well. (He used Miquon, Singapore, NEM, and Jacobs Algebra and Geometry as his spines, with Saxon, MUS, or occasional other items as supplement.)

What we've used as supplements:
For grades 1-4 (depending on the child) we supplemented (depending on the child) with Miquon, The Complete Book, of Math, Singapore, and various booklets that go with geoboards, pattern blocks, cuisenaire rods, etc.
For grades 5-8 (depending on the child) we've supplemented with Saxon, Singapore, Keys To... series, Hands-On Equations, and "teacher help" books on specific topics as needed.

Both boys have scored very high on math in the standardized testing -- even the younger son who has struggled with math and for a number of years was working in math below grade level. I attribute that to supplementing and seeing that math is very interconnected and really quite fluid -- that there is more than one way to get to the answer.

Specifically re: standardized testing
For several years, we would go through a "test prep" book (1-2 pages a day, 3-4 days a week, for the 3-4 months before the test), which helped the boys not only learn "how to take a test" and "test taking tips", but gave us all a good idea of the types of math questions that would be asked. So if we ran across a concept they'd not yet seen, we'd go over it with a booklet on that topic, or with the supplement math in advance of seeing it in the "spine" math.

Yes, MUS does cover real-life math word problems, and I do think they are more varied than the Saxon ones which (at least in opinion) rely on the child memorizing formulas and then matching up the formulas to specific wording of problems. But that's why I love Singapore -- whether you use it as a spine or a supplement, it is hands down the best program I've seen for teaching you to think mathematically to figure out real life word problems.


Not that you need any advice, but... (lol)

- Don't sweat this too hard -- your daughter is still young and may still be in that "brain development" stage for math -- girls often develop in the math and logic areas later than boys, esp. if they are strong in the language/reading/writing areas.

- Realize that, just like young children have physical growth "spurts" and "plateaus" -- so too, with learning math concepts. That's when having a booklet on patternblocks and simple fractions, or geoboards and geometry is really helpful to go to for a week or two.

- Be willing to be flexible; a program that is the best fit now, or helps you get over a "math hump" might not continue to be the best fit in later years.

- With you putting this much effort into research and preparation, you'll be great as you go through math with your daughter!


BEST of luck, whatever math program you go with! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[MtnTeaching]

Lori,
Thank you for your comments on your experience with MUS and also thank you for your warm thoughts and advice. It does help to hear from someone who's "been there" and can put some perspective on the overload of information.

[rprimeau95]

Hmm we are going to be using MUS this next year and when i looked at the video and saw the demonstration showing the houses and the manipulative's the number and the place values popped out at me and was very clear I think that is what they are expecting from the child learning.

Example the video on the site I watched tonight showed the little house with 4 single blocks in it then the larger taller house had 3 10's blocks in it when he asked the children how many people are home in this house they said 4 he wrote the 4 down under the house then when he asked the kids how many are 10's are in the taller house they said 3 he drew the 3 under the house and immediately my brain focused on the number 34 not the blocks or the house and I though wow that is cool. So really I think it is supposed to be more a way to help the child see the place value 3 = 3 ten's =30 when added up so they see the value as 30 there KWIM. Gee hope I explained this right LOL

[CherylG]

We love manipulatives. I use other math programs but anytime someone is struggling with a concept, away goes the book and out comes the cuisenaire blocks or the Power Solids, or the coins or the ruler or the weight balance...They have to understand what they are seeing on the paper, before the light comes on and they can "get it" so that they can do the work.

[Cadam]

Specifically, my questions are:
1. Do the children become dependent on the manipulatives to do the problems? The feeling I got from the demo was that the stress was on the manipulative, not necessarily on the ability to look at a problem and quickly "see" the big picture. I would like to be able to use manipulatives to introduce concepts and for problems in comprehension, but I am not sold on the idea that a manipulative is needed for every problem.

2. Do any of you feel there is so much concentration on one concept that the other concepts are forgotten? An entire year on addition and subtraction of single-digits seems excessive to me. Did any of your children get bored with the pace?

3. Did any of you supplement this program, or use this program as a supplement for other ones? What about all the other wonderful math concepts that standardized testing requires knowledge of (just a little sarcasm there)? Are word problems and real-life math covered?

4. Finally, does anyone know of a good book for parents that would teach me how to teach my child mental math in a condensed, straight-forward fashion. I'm looking for a book (or website) that teaches the "tricks" and tips that make math fun and interesting. I have game books like "Family Math" and have read sites such as the living math website, but I was just wondering if anyone has seen a good straight-forward source for mental math (not asking for much, am I)?

Thank you for your input and help. After two months of math curriculum review and agonizing over which one to use, I thought it best to go straight to the unbelievable wealth of knowledge and experience on this forum.

1.In a word, no. The blocks really help the kids see why you do what you do. Some kids really need the tactile stimulation and the movement to understand the math, some need less. The blocks make the math concrete instead of abstract and help you to see if you went wrong. My ds uses the manipulative (fraction overlays at this point) for about one page of the lesson. The rest of the week he only uses them when he get stuck. Dd is younger and uses the blocks about 50% of the time just because she wants to. They do help her walk through larger problems but I think that is necessary because isn't really an abstract thinker yet, but she is near the end of Gamma.

They are a useful learning tool, wonderful really but once the child understands the concepts they will naturally drop the blocks.
Either in the Demo or the video introduction Mr. Demme addresses this and assures parents that he doesn't go tot he bank and ask for "3 red ones and 4 blue ones". :D

2. First, the child sets the pace. With an older child you very well may go through more than one book in a year. Most older kids won't go all the way back to Alpha anyway.

As we have gotten further in the books I have seen how skills learned in Alpha or Beta are used in Gamma and Delta and then those new skills from Gamma and Delta are used in Epsilon. Long form multiplication uses addition and division uses subtraction. Fractions use all of the basic arithmetic. Some people do go back and review previous skills once a week or so but there are also cumulative review pages every week or so and that has been enough for my kids so far. We use the tests from previous books as review sometimes since we don't test but it's not as if they go years w/o using those skills kwim?

3.Dd does Singapore as well as MUS but that is because she loves math and I have to keep her busy, not because I think MUS is lacking. Word problems are in every page. The most common supplementation I have seen is adding Singapore Challenging Word problems to MUS for variety.

As for testing. My ds was tested after Gamma (third grade, CAT 5) He missed the three division problems on the test and that was it. This is not a mathy kid. He is my artist. This year after 5th grade he was tested again and didn't miss a single math problem. None. Yes, your child may miss the problems they haven't seen but I just prepared my son for that and it was fine. Obviously his scores were never low enough to cause a problem. I figure the good foundation laid means that ds doesn't make mistakes on the skills he has covered; so missing a few that he hasn't covered doesn't hurt too much.

Well, I wrote you a book! MUS isn't for everyone but if you want your child to see "why" math does what it does I don't think you can find a better program. MUS isn't perfect but my kids really understand math and have been fine with the unusual S&S. It's all in there and I am glad they have the opportunity to learn the concepts in a concrete fashion before moving on to mental math.

[strider]

Math-U-See users and lovers- please do not mistake my question as a criticism. I have a genuine desire to know your thoughts after using this curriculum for your child. For some reason, after viewing this product and demo at our convention, online demo and many, many reviews, I have this nagging feeling that the amount of stress placed on the manipulative work is a bit of an over kill.

My background - My 9yo daughter was homeschooled last year (3rd grade) after coming out of ps and not having even a basic understanding of how to regroup an addition problem. We went back to 2nd grade level math and worked hard this year to bring her up to a 4th grade level math. Unfortunately, I taught her the same way I was taught. She knows the steps, but not the why.

I, like so many of you, want my child to understand math and enjoy the wonder of it, not just follow "rules" with no idea as to why and how it really works. I was hoping Math-U-See would help her with this since she needs more than just language to really grasp a concept. She really needs to "see" it work.

Specifically, my questions are:
1. Do the children become dependent on the manipulatives to do the problems? The feeling I got from the demo was that the stress was on the manipulative, not necessarily on the ability to look at a problem and quickly "see" the big picture. I would like to be able to use manipulatives to introduce concepts and for problems in comprehension, but I am not sold on the idea that a manipulative is needed for every problem. Neither of my kids have become dependent upon the manipulatives. On any given worksheet the child is only required to do some problems with manipulatives, and there are many, many pages that require none. We find that the manipulatives are WONDERFUL for giving a concrete sense of what is happening in a given operation. I think the manipulatives are one of the strongest parts of this program.

2. Do any of you feel there is so much concentration on one concept that the other concepts are forgotten? An entire year on addition and subtraction of single-digits seems excessive to me. Did any of your children get bored with the pace? There is a fair amount of review. Doing one concept at a time has not been problematic for us. On the contrary, it has been really good for dd, who spent a couple years on Singapore (spiral approach) before switching to MUS. One concept at a time gives dd time to really learn it well. Her attention is not shifted to a new topic prematurely.

3. Did any of you supplement this program, or use this program as a supplement for other ones? What about all the other wonderful math concepts that standardized testing requires knowledge of (just a little sarcasm there)? Are word problems and real-life math covered? I have not found a single math program, anywhere, that does not need a little supplementation. We supplement with simple math facts drills/games and with math stories for fun (like the Sir Cumference series). Some people supplement with Singapore's Challenging Word Problems. Yet others do not supplement at all. My dd has done fine on standardized tests with MUS.

4. Finally, does anyone know of a good book for parents that would teach me how to teach my child mental math in a condensed, straight-forward fashion. I'm looking for a book (or website) that teaches the "tricks" and tips that make math fun and interesting. I have game books like "Family Math" and have read sites such as the living math website, but I was just wondering if anyone has seen a good straight-forward source for mental math (not asking for much, am I)?I'd say give MUS a try.

Thank you for your input and help. After two months of math curriculum review and agonizing over which one to use, I thought it best to go straight to the unbelievable wealth of knowledge and experience on this forum.

We really like MUS. Dd hated Singapore, and has really thrived with MUS' approach. I do NOT find the program to be gimmicky. Rather, I appreciate how simple and straightforward it is.

[dawn of ns]

I thought it looked gimmicky too. I finally bought it when I found Foundations and Intermediate for a good price. From the moment the MUS blocks arrived my son was playing and learning and building his own concepts. I was sold. Funny because we have cuisenaire rods and both kids hate them. A slightly different design to the MUS blocks but it makes ALL the difference.

[Linda]

Just had to chuckle at your post title. I avoided MUS for the longest time because I hated the goofy "U" in the name. It sounded so gimmicky. And, surely, a classical educator such as myself could never stoop to using such a poorly named curriculum for something as important as mathematics!

Can't judge a book by its cover . . . .

We're using both Primer and Alpha right now and the boys are lovin' it! Thus, mom is lovin' it too.

Best wishes with your decision. The choices are mind-boggling at times, I know.

[Sue in St Pete]

1. Do the children become dependent on the manipulatives to do the problems?
In my experience, no. After ds understood the concept, the manipulatives just slowed him down and therefore were expendable.

2. Do any of you feel there is so much concentration on one concept that the other concepts are forgotten? An entire year on addition and subtraction of single-digits seems excessive to me. Did any of your children get bored with the pace?
IMO, the concentration on one concept is one of MUS's strengths. I think it really helps the child to know multiplication (for example) until they know it forwards, backwards, sideways, and upside down. I think it helps to CEMENT it in the child's head. If ds gets bored, then he understands, and we can move on.

3. Did any of you supplement this program, or use this program as a supplement for other ones? What about all the other wonderful math concepts that standardized testing requires knowledge of (just a little sarcasm there)? Are word problems and real-life math covered?

We supplemented with Singapore's CWP. We are in Algebra now and are supplementing with Life of Fred. Or, actually, just doing both programs.

Testing results: When my son was about ½ way through Epsilon, I had to have him evaluated due to state law. He took the Woodcock Johnson test (national test which only took 30 minutes total), and the results were startling. His math calculation came out upper 8th grade and his math reasoning came out mid 9th grade! It took me a while to understand this. It does not mean that he is doing 8th/9th grade math work. It means that my son, working at 5.5 grade level, does as well as the average 8th/9th grader. When he was ½ way through Zeta, he took the Kaufman Test of Educational Achievement and scored post high school in math. After Pre-Algebra, he took the ITBS and scored 11th grade.

4. Finally, does anyone know of a good book for parents that would teach me how to teach my child mental math in a condensed, straight-forward fashion. I'm looking for a book (or website) that teaches the "tricks" and tips that make math fun and interesting. I have game books like "Family Math" and have read sites such as the living math website, but I was just wondering if anyone has seen a good straight-forward source for mental math (not asking for much, am I)?
Sorry, no. Singapore is the best curriculum for teaching mental math, IMO.

[Hedgehogs4]

we love math u see. we don't use the manipulatives all the time, but when we need to get back to basics, they're always there for support. i've used it since pre K when we began with the primer. i am rather handicapped at teaching math...not a strong math person myself and even less able to explain to someone else. i chose mus because i can teach it. my son loves the videos, and he cruises right through the lessons. it could get gimmicky if you go hard-core, but for the most part, it's a really solid, practical system that will teach your child the why as well as the how.

[Veritaserum]

1. Do the children become dependent on the manipulatives to do the problems? The feeling I got from the demo was that the stress was on the manipulative, not necessarily on the ability to look at a problem and quickly "see" the big picture. I would like to be able to use manipulatives to introduce concepts and for problems in comprehension, but I am not sold on the idea that a manipulative is needed for every problem.

No, they do not become dependent. They use them in the beginning, but as they practice each type of problem (adding by 8 or 9 or whatever) they know how to do it quickly in their heads. If they make a mistake, I have them use the blocks because they'll see what the right answer is.

2. Do any of you feel there is so much concentration on one concept that the other concepts are forgotten? An entire year on addition and subtraction of single-digits seems excessive to me. Did any of your children get bored with the pace?

They don't forget because of the built-in review. I love that my girls are so solid in their facts. Sometimes they'll move through a lesson per day. Sometimes it will be a week.

3. Did any of you supplement this program, or use this program as a supplement for other ones? What about all the other wonderful math concepts that standardized testing requires knowledge of (just a little sarcasm there)? Are word problems and real-life math covered?

We haven't supplemented. There are word problems on every worksheet. We don't have standardized testing in our state for homeschoolers (thankfully), so we don't have to worry about that.

4. Finally, does anyone know of a good book for parents that would teach me how to teach my child mental math in a condensed, straight-forward fashion. I'm looking for a book (or website) that teaches the "tricks" and tips that make math fun and interesting. I have game books like "Family Math" and have read sites such as the living math website, but I was just wondering if anyone has seen a good straight-forward source for mental math (not asking for much, am I)?

Math Magic for Your Kids (http://www.amazon.com/Math-Magic-Your-Kids-Calculator/dp/0060977310/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240715997&sr=8-1) is probably a good fit for that. :)

[Veritaserum]

I thought it looked gimmicky too. I finally bought it when I found Foundations and Intermediate for a good price. From the moment the MUS blocks arrived my son was playing and learning and building his own concepts. I was sold. Funny because we have cuisenaire rods and both kids hate them. A slightly different design to the MUS blocks but it makes ALL the difference.

:iagree: My kids build with them like Legos. :tongue_smilie:

[Cadam]

. Apparently I need to check and see if I have already answered something before I go typing it all out again.

[razorbackmama]

Specifically, my questions are:
1. Do the children become dependent on the manipulatives to do the problems? The feeling I got from the demo was that the stress was on the manipulative, not necessarily on the ability to look at a problem and quickly "see" the big picture. I would like to be able to use manipulatives to introduce concepts and for problems in comprehension, but I am not sold on the idea that a manipulative is needed for every problem.

MUS actually says that the child should NOT use the manipulatives except as they are learning the concept. Part of the mastery process is that they learn the facts and know them WITHOUT the manipulatives. They say that if a child does not know how to do something without the manipulative, that child is not ready to move on to the next lesson.

2. Do any of you feel there is so much concentration on one concept that the other concepts are forgotten? An entire year on addition and subtraction of single-digits seems excessive to me. Did any of your children get bored with the pace?

Nope.:001_smile: There is lots of review, and really, one concept builds on the other withi that year.

3. Did any of you supplement this program, or use this program as a supplement for other ones? What about all the other wonderful math concepts that standardized testing requires knowledge of (just a little sarcasm there)? Are word problems and real-life math covered?

We do not supplement. Word problems are actually the reason behind MUS. Mr. Demme says in the demo video that the whole point of doing math in the first place is to do "word problems" and be able to use math in real life. I'm not sure what other concepts would need to be covered, although yes, the S&S is different.

[Sue in St Pete]

. Apparently I need to check and see if I have already answered something before I go typing it all out again.

:lol: Well, it's hard to remember when the discussion is revived 8 months later.

[MtnTeaching]

Hi Everyone,
I just checked in and noticed that this discussion had been "revived" (as Sue in St Pete stated)! I thought I'd give everyone an update.

We did decided to use MUS for my 4th gr. daughter's math program this year. We started with MUS Gamma and it was exactly what she needed. She loved the videos and I could see her confidence growing each day. After the first month, we were using the manipulatives less and less and she was flying. She just "got it" and I added supplementation from other texts. She started MUS Delta in Feb. and has had no problem in understanding the division at all.

Thank you all for your input! She enjoys math and has confidence in her abilities. I believe MUS was a large part of this.

[Sue in St Pete]

Thanks for the update, Leslie! I'm glad to hear that MUS is working well for your dd. It must be a relief.

[Katie.Louise]

We have always used MUS. I have 3 girls (5th, 3rd and K.) We just use the blocks until the "get it." I had to put the older 2 in public school this year. They both were ahead in math and did well throughout the year. I like that mus goes deeper into each skill in one year, so they really master it. I do believe they can "see" the math with this program. My girls have thrived on it.
Hope this helps!
Katie

[Oak Knoll Mom]

I have this nagging feeling that the amount of stress placed on the manipulative work is a bit of an over kill.


<<Snip>>

Specifically, my questions are:
1. Do the children become dependent on the manipulatives to do the problems? The feeling I got from the demo was that the stress was on the manipulative, not necessarily on the ability to look at a problem and quickly "see" the big picture. I would like to be able to use manipulatives to introduce concepts and for problems in comprehension, but I am not sold on the idea that a manipulative is needed for every problem.

I can't speak directly to MUS, but we do use RightStart which also relies heavily on manipulatives (the abacus). Joan Cotter, the author of RS, says to always have the manipulative available for the student. They will eventually stop using it. Every once in a while she will tell you to encourage the child to solve a problem without the abacus, but it's only after they've had plenty of time using it.

My son's experience is a good example. He went from using the abacus on every problem --> just putting his finger on the bead that he would move over, but not actually moving it --> just looking at the abacus --> not using it at all.

Eventually the manipulatives get in the way and it's just faster to do it. :D

[WTMindy]

I have mixed thoughts on manipulatives, honestly. Some kids need them and some don't. I never needed them, and my kids don't seem to either. But, for some kids they make all the difference in the world. So, it totally depends on the kid. Some kids can use manipulatives and STILL not really get it. At some point, at least with elementary math, I think a kid has to memorize the steps regardless of whether they get it or not. But, manipulatives can really help some kids with this.

Conventional wisdom in the public schools (at least in WA) these days says it is horrible to make a kid memorize steps to doing something that they don't really understand. (Constructivist education-where they discover the steps for themselves.) This, however, has not worked so well, as our state math scores have shown. While, I think it is BEST if a kid can figure it out and understand all the "whys" behind it, I also think there is a time and place for memorizing the algorhythms, even if they don't totally understand them. (Like how to do long division, for example). Sometimes the understanding comes later.

Now, having stepped off my little soap box, I think the manipulatives in MUS are helpful and useful for many kids, but I would never force them on a kid who can do the math without them.

[Lovedtodeath]

1. Do the children become dependent on the manipulatives to do the problems? I agree with PP. It is not a problem. The feeling I got from the demo was that the stress was on the manipulative, not necessarily on the ability to look at a problem and quickly "see" the big picture. I would like to be able to use manipulatives to introduce concepts and for problems in comprehension, but I am not sold on the idea that a manipulative is needed for every problem.

2. Do any of you feel there is so much concentration on one concept that the other concepts are forgotten? An entire year on addition and subtraction of single-digits seems excessive to me. Did any of your children get bored with the pace? We switched from a different math in K, where DD was excelling in a variety of areas, to MUS Alpha. She forgot everything that she already knew and took a huge step back. I have heard this from others as well; if you switch programs and go to MUS, you often loose everything that they have already learned. It might not be a problem if you stick to MUS all the way through.

DD was bored to tears and refusing to learn anything. She is excelling once again with Abeka. If I use MUS in the future, it will be only the TM/DVD and the test booklet, not the student sheets, and I will use it to supplement a different main program.


3. Did any of you supplement this program, or use this program as a supplement for other ones? What about all the other wonderful math concepts that standardized testing requires knowledge of (just a little sarcasm there)? Are word problems and real-life math covered? I have heard numerous reports of good test scores with MUS. DD did seem behind to me and my friends, but I think that evens out in future levels. We only used Alpha.

There are mental math exercises in the TM and there are real life story problems.

HTH

[Quill]

Hi. I have not read the responses, but I am a MUS devote and have used it since my finishing-6th-grader was in first grade.

First - no, I do NOT find it gimmicky at all. The demonstration you saw may have emphasized the use of the manipulatives, but in practice, it doesn't go this way (for us). Mr. Demme does use the manipulatives in the video, but my kids watch the video and as long as they understand what is happening, they move on. They pretty much only use them when a brand-new concept is being taught. They do not become dependant on using the manipulatives at all. It is by being able to "see" what is happening in the math problem that they come to be able to apply that knowledge to abstractions. My finishing-3rd-grader is so good at mental math that I have to insist that he write out steps, so I can check it.

Second, I can see how the concentration on one concept could be seen as a liability. If I was homeschooling only for a short while, for example, and had to have the child ready to move into school at any time, MUS might not work. If 3rd grade Standardized Test scores were crucial and I was not confident of my child's broad knowledge of math, MUS might not work. But, personally, I think the "mastery" concept is miles better. It is far more sound if you are homeschooling for many years. So what if they don't know about fractions until a little later (maybe)? The year they do fractions, they will master fractions and move smoothly and confidently towards Algebra. That is so much better than dabbling around here and there with different concepts. My children have never gotten bored with the pace, because the pace is up to them. In the early grades, they skipped along through the books, missing whole Lessons (LOL, seems so radical now!) because they "got it" and didn't need to be dragged down. But we have also been able to slow.....way.....down....for a child struggling through fiddly long division.

3. I do not supplement MUS. I have been tempted a few times because I'm always so excited by what else they could learn. But, ultimately, I think it would just bog us down and make it take longer to complete a level. Besides, I don't feel that my children are missing out on anything with MUS, so it's not as though there is something else I am giving up them knowing. If I was concerned with test scores and worried that they might grade "behind" because they hadn't seen XYZconcept yet, I would probably throw in Developmental Math over the summer and just do practice pages of MUS. (You can print practice pages from the website.) But I'm not, so I don't. :001_smile: I would recommend doing practice pages over the summer to keep math facts fresh in their minds. I'm always going to do math in the summer from now on. Also, word problems - MUS has them in spades.

4. I don't know any such website or whatever for mental math teaching. Really, MUS has been all we need, even though there are other things out there that are useful, or fun, or worthwhile. Why complicate it? For us, MUS has everything we need.

It was my pleasure to talk about how much I love MUS!

[Quill]

See, I should have read the responses! What a doofus I feel like that the OP has long since had her questions answered. :D Oh well, maybe someone else had those very same questions and now they benefit!

[Lovedtodeath]

See, I should have read the responses! What a doofus I feel like that the OP has long since had her questions answered. :D Oh well, maybe someone else had those very same questions and now they benefit! LOL! I did the same thing. I only read the first few! I am sure someone new will benefit. :tongue_smilie: